What games should my friends & I play instead of Warcraft?
August 3, 2007 1:38 PM Subscribe
Now that World of Warcraft has abandoned all attempts at creativity, my friends and I would like a fun, casual, multi-player game where we can hang out. Any ideas?
While we're all big nerds and like Warcraft, it's become apparent that every expansion is going to follow the same formula
Add 10 levels
Add a half-dozen zones
Set up some big bad to kill
Add a ton of repetitive faction grinds
And, since it's obviously making Blizzard a ton of money, I'm not going to begrudge them. But I would like to find another game to play with my friends.
We're geographically diverse, smart, talkative 20 & 30-somethings. We play games not to be the 'best' or to while away entire days, but to have fun, unwind and socialize.
Most of them are more into the RP side of RPG. But all of us can enjoy a good game, even if we're not pretending to be a dwarf.
What games out there could work for us? I've poked at Puzzle Pirates a bit, and it seems fun, but it also seems that every player is off doing their own puzzle (maybe this isn't true, I only tried it for a few minutes).
Another option is online Scrabble, which I'd be more enthusiastic about if I weren't terrible at Scrabble. But online board games do seem like a good option.
We obviously don't mind paying for our games. But free is cool too.
While we're all big nerds and like Warcraft, it's become apparent that every expansion is going to follow the same formula
Add 10 levels
Add a half-dozen zones
Set up some big bad to kill
Add a ton of repetitive faction grinds
And, since it's obviously making Blizzard a ton of money, I'm not going to begrudge them. But I would like to find another game to play with my friends.
We're geographically diverse, smart, talkative 20 & 30-somethings. We play games not to be the 'best' or to while away entire days, but to have fun, unwind and socialize.
Most of them are more into the RP side of RPG. But all of us can enjoy a good game, even if we're not pretending to be a dwarf.
What games out there could work for us? I've poked at Puzzle Pirates a bit, and it seems fun, but it also seems that every player is off doing their own puzzle (maybe this isn't true, I only tried it for a few minutes).
Another option is online Scrabble, which I'd be more enthusiastic about if I weren't terrible at Scrabble. But online board games do seem like a good option.
We obviously don't mind paying for our games. But free is cool too.
Have you looked at Lord of the Rings online? Graphically it's really groovy, the game play seems pretty group friendly...and "Monster Play" may be the grooviest PVP implementation I've ever seen.
Note that I don't have any characters over lvl 14 or so, so I've no idea what the end game does. But for a casual, non-grinding role playing game, I think it may be a good fit. One of the servers is the unofficial "RP" server...starts with an L...don't remember the name though, sorry.
posted by dejah420 at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2007
Note that I don't have any characters over lvl 14 or so, so I've no idea what the end game does. But for a casual, non-grinding role playing game, I think it may be a good fit. One of the servers is the unofficial "RP" server...starts with an L...don't remember the name though, sorry.
posted by dejah420 at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2007
Response by poster: One detail I forgot is that some of us are on Macs, others on PCs. That puts a limit on the RTS option, sadly.
posted by iwhitney at 1:45 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by iwhitney at 1:45 PM on August 3, 2007
Guilds Wars, designed by former Blizzard staffers who believe that internet play should be free (hooray!), is the game of choice for my boys, who used to be WoW players as well. Of course, there's always the classics: Starcraft and Diablo II.
posted by misha at 1:47 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by misha at 1:47 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh, and Starcraft and Diablo II are for both Mac and PC, while to my knowlege Guild Wars is not available on Mac.
posted by misha at 1:49 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by misha at 1:49 PM on August 3, 2007
City of Heroes?
posted by canine epigram at 1:51 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by canine epigram at 1:51 PM on August 3, 2007
I've poked at Puzzle Pirates a bit, and it seems fun, but it also seems that every player is off doing their own puzzle (maybe this isn't true, I only tried it for a few minutes).
Yes and no. Everybody is doing their own puzzle. But if you're all on the same ship out pillaging or in a blockade or what have you, then your independent puzzling activities are contributing to your ships overall activities, as well. It's not the 'you go shoot that guy, and I'll shoot this guy, and then together we'll shoot the third guy' shared play that you might get in a different game, but you are working toward common goals in the same place at the same time.
You can play the lower end of the game pretty much solo, though, so people can practice or whatever on their own, they don't need the whole gang to be there.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:57 PM on August 3, 2007
Yes and no. Everybody is doing their own puzzle. But if you're all on the same ship out pillaging or in a blockade or what have you, then your independent puzzling activities are contributing to your ships overall activities, as well. It's not the 'you go shoot that guy, and I'll shoot this guy, and then together we'll shoot the third guy' shared play that you might get in a different game, but you are working toward common goals in the same place at the same time.
You can play the lower end of the game pretty much solo, though, so people can practice or whatever on their own, they don't need the whole gang to be there.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:57 PM on August 3, 2007
If you want to stick with the RPG motif, WoW is probably the most enjoyable one to look at; try playing on a private server. There's experience/item drop/money drop multipliers and interfaction partying/guilding that make creating new and different characters actually fun and easy.
If you want a fun, free, interesting, competitive, and mildly addictive game to play with people internationally, Trackmania Nations is a good choice. It's like a racing game, except the tracks look like they were designed by surrealist sculpturists and crazy mathematicians on acid.
posted by tehloki at 2:10 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
If you want a fun, free, interesting, competitive, and mildly addictive game to play with people internationally, Trackmania Nations is a good choice. It's like a racing game, except the tracks look like they were designed by surrealist sculpturists and crazy mathematicians on acid.
posted by tehloki at 2:10 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think you guys gotta get into some shooters, like classic Half-Life deathmatch and Battlefield. Set up a private server so it's just you folks, and you don't have to worry about getting pwned by the keyboard twitch jockeys.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:37 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:37 PM on August 3, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for all the answers so far. Again, PC-only games won't work since half of us are on Macs, and not al of those Macs can run Boot Camp.
Does anyone have any experience with online board games? Like the ones put together by Days of Wonder?
posted by iwhitney at 2:42 PM on August 3, 2007
Does anyone have any experience with online board games? Like the ones put together by Days of Wonder?
posted by iwhitney at 2:42 PM on August 3, 2007
Have you looked at Lord of the Rings online?
I've got a level 50 toon in LotRO and enjoy it, but gameplay-wise, it's pretty much identical to WoW. Kill mobs for quests. Grind for traits instead of rep. Added content will have new zones, increased level cap, more raids and another big bad.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:56 PM on August 3, 2007
I've got a level 50 toon in LotRO and enjoy it, but gameplay-wise, it's pretty much identical to WoW. Kill mobs for quests. Grind for traits instead of rep. Added content will have new zones, increased level cap, more raids and another big bad.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:56 PM on August 3, 2007
Best answer: What games out there could work for us? I've poked at Puzzle Pirates a bit, and it seems fun, but it also seems that every player is off doing their own puzzle (maybe this isn't true, I only tried it for a few minutes).
I enjoyed puzzle pirates; it's very informal and fun. Instead of keeping to myself, I joined a band of happy-seeming people and went out on sailing voyages, wherein everyone plays puzzles and chats to (oversimplifying) keep the boat afloat on the voyage.
It's not deep enough to really engage you long-term, though, in my experience; the "captain" of the ship I sailed with swapped with a new "captain". The first caption, whose voyages were fun, spent a lot of time chatting and was supportive in a game-appropriate way (occasional "arr, ye be doing well, me hearties!" type silliness) but the new guy didn't talk, except to complain that we weren't doing our puzzles well enough. It took all of ten minutes of that for me to hang up the game for good.
Still, it's a cheap buy-in, and it's very lighthearted, so I still recommend it. Just realize YMMV based on who you spend time with in-game.
posted by davejay at 3:00 PM on August 3, 2007
I enjoyed puzzle pirates; it's very informal and fun. Instead of keeping to myself, I joined a band of happy-seeming people and went out on sailing voyages, wherein everyone plays puzzles and chats to (oversimplifying) keep the boat afloat on the voyage.
It's not deep enough to really engage you long-term, though, in my experience; the "captain" of the ship I sailed with swapped with a new "captain". The first caption, whose voyages were fun, spent a lot of time chatting and was supportive in a game-appropriate way (occasional "arr, ye be doing well, me hearties!" type silliness) but the new guy didn't talk, except to complain that we weren't doing our puzzles well enough. It took all of ten minutes of that for me to hang up the game for good.
Still, it's a cheap buy-in, and it's very lighthearted, so I still recommend it. Just realize YMMV based on who you spend time with in-game.
posted by davejay at 3:00 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh, and the drinking game (where you face off on a puzzle with other people) is a lot of fun, as such things go. I certainly enjoyed that (and requisite chatting) more than running around looking for beats to kill in WoW.
posted by davejay at 3:01 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by davejay at 3:01 PM on August 3, 2007
Best answer: Does anyone have any experience with online board games?
I play online board games all the time. There are plenty of free ones and they typically don't require any client other than a web browser. Sometimes have to muddle through foreign languages.
If you're okay playing real-time, BrettSpielWelt has a large collection of games. Here's a guide.
I prefer play-by-web, where everyone doesn't have to be online at once. SpielByWeb has some good games, like Tikal and Wallenstein. Elsewhere, I'm playing the fast two-player deduction game Mr. Jack a lot, and also Caylus Magna Carta (French interface, language independent game), which handles up to four, I believe. Here are 100+ other online board games.
posted by Yogurt at 3:10 PM on August 3, 2007
I play online board games all the time. There are plenty of free ones and they typically don't require any client other than a web browser. Sometimes have to muddle through foreign languages.
If you're okay playing real-time, BrettSpielWelt has a large collection of games. Here's a guide.
I prefer play-by-web, where everyone doesn't have to be online at once. SpielByWeb has some good games, like Tikal and Wallenstein. Elsewhere, I'm playing the fast two-player deduction game Mr. Jack a lot, and also Caylus Magna Carta (French interface, language independent game), which handles up to four, I believe. Here are 100+ other online board games.
posted by Yogurt at 3:10 PM on August 3, 2007
I almost hate to say it. However, a lot of us keep going back. We'll take months off, we'll go back....
Shadowbane
Pluses: Free. Open PVP everywhere. Mac and PC.
Playing on the test server (the only one worth playing), one can level up fairly quickly.
Cons: Very low population, fairly high learning curve.
Our group has owned our server time and time again, the good thing about test is that it wipes periodically. It's fun to build a town, roll gear, grind, pvp (and pvp gives XP too..), and tear down other peoples towns. However, as with everything, it gets old after a while.
A couple of us have been off it for several months and are talking about going back. If you're interested, let me know and I'll see what I can do to help you out a little.
posted by TomMelee at 3:18 PM on August 3, 2007
Shadowbane
Pluses: Free. Open PVP everywhere. Mac and PC.
Playing on the test server (the only one worth playing), one can level up fairly quickly.
Cons: Very low population, fairly high learning curve.
Our group has owned our server time and time again, the good thing about test is that it wipes periodically. It's fun to build a town, roll gear, grind, pvp (and pvp gives XP too..), and tear down other peoples towns. However, as with everything, it gets old after a while.
A couple of us have been off it for several months and are talking about going back. If you're interested, let me know and I'll see what I can do to help you out a little.
posted by TomMelee at 3:18 PM on August 3, 2007
There's always Evercrack. Available for both Mac and PC.
Friend of mine still plays it, after all these years. She's crazy and plays 2 different characters on 2 different computers at the same time...
posted by daq at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2007
Friend of mine still plays it, after all these years. She's crazy and plays 2 different characters on 2 different computers at the same time...
posted by daq at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2007
I've really been digging Get Hostile though I'd rather play compys than people. Fast paced, every game's different, no huge investment of time, and tons of fun.
Someone turned me onto Ogame which was fun for about a week then got boring. The fun left somewhere between planet management and getting pwnt by someone 8 times bigger than I was. I gave my account away this morning but if you're going to join, join the highest numbered universe because that's the youngest.
posted by Tacodog at 4:56 PM on August 3, 2007
Someone turned me onto Ogame which was fun for about a week then got boring. The fun left somewhere between planet management and getting pwnt by someone 8 times bigger than I was. I gave my account away this morning but if you're going to join, join the highest numbered universe because that's the youngest.
posted by Tacodog at 4:56 PM on August 3, 2007
I agree with whoever said Guild Wars. Not only is the lack of monthly fee nice, but they are adding some cool stuff. It's a great game to just hang out in, plus challenging missions and an interesting story. There are 3 episodes now, all with new classes, items and all that fun stuff, and they are coming out with a new expansion that will finally allow you to try things other than humans. And in the not to distant future they will be putting out GW 2.
posted by KingoftheWhales at 6:12 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by KingoftheWhales at 6:12 PM on August 3, 2007
Most of them are more into the RP side of RPG. But all of us can enjoy a good game, even if we're not pretending to be a dwarf.
Play an old school text mud. Or start your own. Why complain about the management and developers when you can be the management and developers?
posted by damn dirty ape at 6:15 PM on August 3, 2007
Play an old school text mud. Or start your own. Why complain about the management and developers when you can be the management and developers?
posted by damn dirty ape at 6:15 PM on August 3, 2007
I've actually been having a lot of fun in EQ2 for the past two weeks. I never tought I'd like it, but the classic game is about 7 bucks at EBGames/Gamespot and definitely worth a shot. I like it more than I ever liked WoW. It's a well designed and fun game, and at 7 bucks, you and your friends don't have too much to lose in trying it out :)
In fact, you can try it for free before you even spend a dollar!!
posted by odi.et.amo at 6:20 PM on August 3, 2007
In fact, you can try it for free before you even spend a dollar!!
posted by odi.et.amo at 6:20 PM on August 3, 2007
Best answer: Guild Wars and City of Heroes = not for Macs.
If a lot of you like RP, Neverwinter Nights might fit the bill. In a lot of ways it's like graphic D & D, and you can create your own campaigns, but there's also a lot of scenarios (official and player-created) to use right out of the gate.
For board games you might like the online versions of German board games. Try Brettspielwelt Note that I've only had recommendations of this site and haven't used it myself. It also appears to be half in German (but mainly understandable). But these (I'm thinking of Carcassonne and Settlers of Catan, for starters) are board games that are raved about in real life. If you want to start with Settlers of Catan, you can find several online sources to play easily with your friends, either java script or flash.
posted by artifarce at 7:07 PM on August 3, 2007
If a lot of you like RP, Neverwinter Nights might fit the bill. In a lot of ways it's like graphic D & D, and you can create your own campaigns, but there's also a lot of scenarios (official and player-created) to use right out of the gate.
For board games you might like the online versions of German board games. Try Brettspielwelt Note that I've only had recommendations of this site and haven't used it myself. It also appears to be half in German (but mainly understandable). But these (I'm thinking of Carcassonne and Settlers of Catan, for starters) are board games that are raved about in real life. If you want to start with Settlers of Catan, you can find several online sources to play easily with your friends, either java script or flash.
posted by artifarce at 7:07 PM on August 3, 2007
I'll second Neverwinter Nights, though for someone who's gotten used to WoW it will feel clunky at first. Also, though it is available for Mac, the Mac discs are far more expensive than the Windows version. (It didn't come packaged nicely for both OS's, unlike WoW.)
Once you get into it, though, NWN has a great community producing fun, and free, user-generated content. The main storylines aren't too bad either, though they don't stray far from standard fantasy fare.
posted by voltairemodern at 7:48 PM on August 3, 2007
Once you get into it, though, NWN has a great community producing fun, and free, user-generated content. The main storylines aren't too bad either, though they don't stray far from standard fantasy fare.
posted by voltairemodern at 7:48 PM on August 3, 2007
I left WoW for City of Heroes/Villains and never looked back.
posted by nightchrome at 9:54 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by nightchrome at 9:54 PM on August 3, 2007
Seconding damn dirty ape, MUDs are your best bet. Most cater to only one or two of the Bartle classifications, and there is little to no barrier to entry, making finding a good one from a random list off-putting, at best. I have played the same MUD for about ten years, which used to be called moongate, now materia magica. It has a large, sociable playerbase, expands quite frequently, and for the most part is grind-free. There are some niggling problems, as every game does, but it's different enough from Warcraft to be a welcome change, as I've found every time I've come back, but similar enough to be easy to jump into.
If MUDs aren't so much your style, you can't go wrong with a chess league, particularly with a MeFi group recently formed.
Looking at this list, I realize it looks a bit retro, but I'm one of those stodgy old souls who believes gameplay > graphics + grind, and from the sound of it, you are too. Best of luck finding somewhere enjoyable to play!
posted by zevious at 11:15 PM on August 3, 2007
If MUDs aren't so much your style, you can't go wrong with a chess league, particularly with a MeFi group recently formed.
Looking at this list, I realize it looks a bit retro, but I'm one of those stodgy old souls who believes gameplay > graphics + grind, and from the sound of it, you are too. Best of luck finding somewhere enjoyable to play!
posted by zevious at 11:15 PM on August 3, 2007
Try A Tale in the Desert. I left the game a while back after playing for eight months because I felt like it was becoming less a game and more the lead developer's own sandbox (as in he'd develop these minigames that seemed to be distracting from the dev team implementing the rest of the storyline), but it does seem to fulfill many of your needs.
It can be played casually—if you just want to hang out in game with your friends and maybe do some little tasks like mining or making chopping axes, you can. It allows for a fair amount of interaction—groups can do extremely well in the game, as many of the game mechanics only work with multiple people or else work far better with multiple people than soloists. It has a unique gameplay formula that revolves around the idea of "tests" that you perform to prove yourself to the gods of Egypt. Finally, there's versions for Windows, Mac and Linux. Try it out for however long the trial period is and see if it's up your alley.
posted by chrominance at 12:11 AM on August 4, 2007
It can be played casually—if you just want to hang out in game with your friends and maybe do some little tasks like mining or making chopping axes, you can. It allows for a fair amount of interaction—groups can do extremely well in the game, as many of the game mechanics only work with multiple people or else work far better with multiple people than soloists. It has a unique gameplay formula that revolves around the idea of "tests" that you perform to prove yourself to the gods of Egypt. Finally, there's versions for Windows, Mac and Linux. Try it out for however long the trial period is and see if it's up your alley.
posted by chrominance at 12:11 AM on August 4, 2007
If the RP element is central to you, why not play some old-school pen and paper Dungeons & Dragons over IRC or Skype? It doesn't really have to be any more dorky than playing WoW, and with a good group of friends can be a ton of laughs. The combat system is such that it should be able to draw in those who veer more towards the 'game' side of things.
I believe there's a pen and paper version of World of Warcraft, so you could even keep playing your favourite characters from the MMO.
posted by picea at 6:52 AM on August 4, 2007
I believe there's a pen and paper version of World of Warcraft, so you could even keep playing your favourite characters from the MMO.
posted by picea at 6:52 AM on August 4, 2007
I thoroughly enjoy ProgressQuest. Explanation. Download. I mailed these links to my daughter, who is heavily into WoW, and she didn't speak to me for a day. Windows only, but you can run Win apps in an OS X wine session if you're Geek Enough©.
posted by jfuller at 7:01 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by jfuller at 7:01 AM on August 4, 2007
If it weren't for the Mac thing, Subspace might have been perfect. It's like a jazzed-up, multiplayer combat version of "Asteroids", but it's got the ability to create teams, communicate via real-time chat with your teammates, and it's a ton of fun.
(I haven't played for years and years, so I have no idea how vibrant a community it's got now, but it looks like it's still up and running.)
posted by LairBob at 8:22 AM on August 4, 2007
(I haven't played for years and years, so I have no idea how vibrant a community it's got now, but it looks like it's still up and running.)
posted by LairBob at 8:22 AM on August 4, 2007
Play Civilization 4! The new expansion just came out. It's not an MMO of any kind, but games are long and complex, with tons of possibilities; great for unwinding. It'll also remove some of the pressures of an MMO, like 'keeping up with everyone else.' Plus, it's...just not repetitive.
Seriously, the game is so open-ended. It's huge. You could spend just as much time if not more time on Civ 4 than on any MMO. Probably more, and more valuable time, since it wouldn't be spent grinding and doing repetitive quests. It'd be building your freakin' empire.
Every game you play is different and opens unique possibilities. You learn from every single turn you play. The game is beautiful, and multi-layered. By the time you get kind of good, it's super rewarding. It's especially fun with a bunch of friends. There's so many scenarios you could set up; sometimes it's fun to team up against the AI and other times you go straight FFA.
Really, my favorite game ever. And I've played many games. Really!
posted by Lockeownzj00 at 8:59 AM on August 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
Seriously, the game is so open-ended. It's huge. You could spend just as much time if not more time on Civ 4 than on any MMO. Probably more, and more valuable time, since it wouldn't be spent grinding and doing repetitive quests. It'd be building your freakin' empire.
Every game you play is different and opens unique possibilities. You learn from every single turn you play. The game is beautiful, and multi-layered. By the time you get kind of good, it's super rewarding. It's especially fun with a bunch of friends. There's so many scenarios you could set up; sometimes it's fun to team up against the AI and other times you go straight FFA.
Really, my favorite game ever. And I've played many games. Really!
posted by Lockeownzj00 at 8:59 AM on August 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
plus it's fun to change the course of history.
"gandhi has adopted slavery!"
"queen victoria has founded buddhism!"
posted by Lockeownzj00 at 9:00 AM on August 4, 2007
"gandhi has adopted slavery!"
"queen victoria has founded buddhism!"
posted by Lockeownzj00 at 9:00 AM on August 4, 2007
Skyrates is a pretty fun game, though its almost more a chat box with a pretty simple Beta-state trading/air combat engine attached. Very oddly addictive though, and 99.9% of the players are cool. And, free, of course.
http://badges.etc.cmu.edu/skyrates/index.html
posted by Jacen at 10:22 AM on August 4, 2007
http://badges.etc.cmu.edu/skyrates/index.html
posted by Jacen at 10:22 AM on August 4, 2007
It may not be your cup of tea (and definitely isn't for plenty of mefites according to what I've seen before), but I'd like to put in a suggestion about trying Second Life. I'd played roleplay-intensive games for several years before getting incredibly sick of the majority of people I was meeting on MUDs and MUSHes and deciding to quit completely. Wanting something completely different, I tried SL about six months ago, and discovered that it was exactly what I needed. Much can and should be said about the various kinds of stupidity one can encounter there, from the griefer attacks, to the interesting decisions made by the admins, to the lag... but I haven't found any of these to disturb my experience apart from occasional swearing at the last.
You say you're WoWers; my best friend, who used to play WoW a lot, said SL was ugly and the interface difficult to learn and refused to try it more than once. This could be true, and other people certainly seem to think so. But there are plenty of beautiful and/or interesting places to be as well- I rarely leave them- and the interface was relatively easy for me, a complete beginner to non-text-based games, to learn. I think the problem for him was more of unlearning what he was used to.
It's not a place for people who don't want to take some role in making their own fun, which turns plenty of people off since nothing is predefined and there's a strong DIY element to the whole thing. While I haven't done anything I'd consider roleplay, I've met others who do almost nothing but, and they're articulate, interesting folk (not talking about random Gorean slavegirls- a number of roleplay communities require some sort of application to participate, which tends to weed out those who are incapable of locating the shift key). I play mostly for the social and can't-do-that-in-real-life-without-dying aspects.
I'd be happy to help you out if you're interested in giving it a try- email in profile.
posted by Gingersnap at 12:33 PM on August 4, 2007
You say you're WoWers; my best friend, who used to play WoW a lot, said SL was ugly and the interface difficult to learn and refused to try it more than once. This could be true, and other people certainly seem to think so. But there are plenty of beautiful and/or interesting places to be as well- I rarely leave them- and the interface was relatively easy for me, a complete beginner to non-text-based games, to learn. I think the problem for him was more of unlearning what he was used to.
It's not a place for people who don't want to take some role in making their own fun, which turns plenty of people off since nothing is predefined and there's a strong DIY element to the whole thing. While I haven't done anything I'd consider roleplay, I've met others who do almost nothing but, and they're articulate, interesting folk (not talking about random Gorean slavegirls- a number of roleplay communities require some sort of application to participate, which tends to weed out those who are incapable of locating the shift key). I play mostly for the social and can't-do-that-in-real-life-without-dying aspects.
I'd be happy to help you out if you're interested in giving it a try- email in profile.
posted by Gingersnap at 12:33 PM on August 4, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by iamabot at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2007