Picking Sides
April 23, 2004 2:39 PM Subscribe
Your significant other is in a disagreement with someone and looks to you to back him/her up. You think the other person is right and your s.o. is wrong. Quick: what do you do?
depends.
do either of them need the correct information to avoid making a terrible mistake? i'd correct the other half.
do i hate the person he's arguing with? i feign ignorance.
is it terribly important to the other half that he be right? i refuse to be put in the middle.
there's not enough information here for me to make the call.
posted by crush-onastick at 2:48 PM on April 23, 2004
do either of them need the correct information to avoid making a terrible mistake? i'd correct the other half.
do i hate the person he's arguing with? i feign ignorance.
is it terribly important to the other half that he be right? i refuse to be put in the middle.
there's not enough information here for me to make the call.
posted by crush-onastick at 2:48 PM on April 23, 2004
More information is needed. I should be possible to support the s.o. in the argument while defending the "right" answer.
posted by blueshammer at 2:49 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by blueshammer at 2:49 PM on April 23, 2004
Instead of jumping on one side or the other, how about trying to mediate?
That said, my first instinct is to support my SO. This is less about truth-finding than about her asking for my emotional support and me providing it.
posted by vacapinta at 2:50 PM on April 23, 2004
That said, my first instinct is to support my SO. This is less about truth-finding than about her asking for my emotional support and me providing it.
posted by vacapinta at 2:50 PM on April 23, 2004
This is impossible to "win". I've been there, multiple times. If you dont back the SO up, they start the "you don't love me, you should support me" argument.
posted by mrbill at 2:51 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by mrbill at 2:51 PM on April 23, 2004
The only thing you should do quickly is find something else to do. If you're going to be honest, at least wait a while. If you can't wait, then be vague. It's not that I'm advocating dishonesty. I'm only saying that if you step directly into someone else's argument you have to realize that an argument is generally not ONLY about who's right and who's wrong.
If it's important to you the ideal solution would be to talk to your partner afterwards. Start the discussion by pointing out the areas where you agree with your partner and try to avoid recreating the argument your partner just had. Instead aim at having a discussion.
If I couldn't disappear, delay, or obfuscate, then I'd back my so in all but the most egregious cases. Life is tough and it's a lot tougher when the person you live with is mad at you.
posted by rdr at 2:54 PM on April 23, 2004
If it's important to you the ideal solution would be to talk to your partner afterwards. Start the discussion by pointing out the areas where you agree with your partner and try to avoid recreating the argument your partner just had. Instead aim at having a discussion.
If I couldn't disappear, delay, or obfuscate, then I'd back my so in all but the most egregious cases. Life is tough and it's a lot tougher when the person you live with is mad at you.
posted by rdr at 2:54 PM on April 23, 2004
Are you a wimp? Tell your SO and the other the truth.
Sheesh.
posted by xmutex at 3:00 PM on April 23, 2004
Sheesh.
posted by xmutex at 3:00 PM on April 23, 2004
Communicate. That's always the best option. Tell your SO all the reasons why you agree with the friend and see if you guys can come to some sort of conclusion. Talk it out is always better than lie or keep it bottled up.
posted by mathowie at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by mathowie at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2004
i look at my SO and kind of twist my nose to one side raise my eyebrows, and say "welllllll, i dunno...." and then she either ignores me or changes her mind.
this kind of thing gets sorted out pretty soon in a relationship, i think - it's only painful a couple of times before you develop some way of communicating. or maybe we just disagree too much.
but yeah, if i don't like the other person i'll agree with her anyway.
posted by andrew cooke at 3:14 PM on April 23, 2004
this kind of thing gets sorted out pretty soon in a relationship, i think - it's only painful a couple of times before you develop some way of communicating. or maybe we just disagree too much.
but yeah, if i don't like the other person i'll agree with her anyway.
posted by andrew cooke at 3:14 PM on April 23, 2004
(obviously, if it's something emotionally terribly important then i need to try find a bit of tact from somewhere and to follow up later by pointing out that there are many other thing in life more important than that, that she's always been right before, that the other person had really bad taste in clothes, smells terrible, and can't get laid, etc etc - but obviously that's the exception (i'm thinking maybe it was an exception case that sparked the question - you need to practice disagreeing on minor things first!))
posted by andrew cooke at 3:21 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 3:21 PM on April 23, 2004
Unless this is some sort of dire circumstance (we're talking cases of significant emotional distress), I would just come right out and say it.
If my girlfriend and I can't have differences of opinion without causing trouble, we've got much bigger problems then the argument at hand. I can see taking the fifth on this one, but to lie just to back up your SO? It always surprises me how many people are dead scared of this kind of situation. It recalls the proverbial "Does this dress make my butt look fat?" scenario -- if my girlfriend were to ask me such a question, I would answer truthfully and she would understand. She knows how I feel about her butt even if it looks huge in horizontal stripes, and she knows I respect her social/political/mathematical opinion even if I point out that I think she's wrong. I don't see how anything other than being straightforward is ever the answer.
posted by rafter at 3:30 PM on April 23, 2004
If my girlfriend and I can't have differences of opinion without causing trouble, we've got much bigger problems then the argument at hand. I can see taking the fifth on this one, but to lie just to back up your SO? It always surprises me how many people are dead scared of this kind of situation. It recalls the proverbial "Does this dress make my butt look fat?" scenario -- if my girlfriend were to ask me such a question, I would answer truthfully and she would understand. She knows how I feel about her butt even if it looks huge in horizontal stripes, and she knows I respect her social/political/mathematical opinion even if I point out that I think she's wrong. I don't see how anything other than being straightforward is ever the answer.
posted by rafter at 3:30 PM on April 23, 2004
i'd support the s.o. right away, but the next day, when tempers have calmed, say, "you know, x may have had a point when he said bla bla bla..."
posted by amberglow at 3:31 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by amberglow at 3:31 PM on April 23, 2004
At the end of the day, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But when and how you express that opinion is going to be different based on the nature of the disagreement and the nature of your relationship with your SO.
What does your SO want here? Does she (presumed she) want moral or political support in front of the other person, or does she want you to validate her opinion for her, or does she legitimately want to know what you think?
A lot depends on the nature of the argument. Is it a professional disagreement? Is it a fight over an issue that's personally very important to your SO?
If you want to state your mind right then and there, I would show that you understand your SO's point of view by starting off with some of the reasons why your SO makes a good point and might be right. Then follow up with your reasoning.
posted by gd779 at 3:34 PM on April 23, 2004
What does your SO want here? Does she (presumed she) want moral or political support in front of the other person, or does she want you to validate her opinion for her, or does she legitimately want to know what you think?
A lot depends on the nature of the argument. Is it a professional disagreement? Is it a fight over an issue that's personally very important to your SO?
If you want to state your mind right then and there, I would show that you understand your SO's point of view by starting off with some of the reasons why your SO makes a good point and might be right. Then follow up with your reasoning.
posted by gd779 at 3:34 PM on April 23, 2004
There are (or may be) several dynamics here:
(1) Your passion (or lack thereof) about the subject being argued. Is the discussion about Shakespeare and you're a noted Shakespeare scholar? Is the discussion about hats and you couldn't really care less?
(2) Your relationship with the third-party (not your significant other). Is this a really good friend who you're always honest with? Is it someone you barely know?
(3) Your relationship with your significant other. Does he/she generally look for support from you in these situations? Is your support more important to him/her than just anyone's?
(4) Your SO's passion for the subject being argued.
(5) The seriousness of your relationship with your SO. Is it somewhat causual? Is this your life parnter?
(6) Your ego about seeming whimpy, passive or "pussy-whipped".
To me, it's silly to rely on some general rule, like "always be honest," or "be true to your love." You need to evaluate the situation at hand, weighing the above criteria.
Personally, I would never take sides against someone I love in public. I would either avoid the subject or lie. I would probably then be honest with my SO in private. According to my priorities, my relationship with my SO (and making her feel good) is much more important than my ego, my relationship with anyone else, or any topic of conversation. But I can't see how my answer would necessarily work for anyone else.
posted by grumblebee at 3:35 PM on April 23, 2004
(1) Your passion (or lack thereof) about the subject being argued. Is the discussion about Shakespeare and you're a noted Shakespeare scholar? Is the discussion about hats and you couldn't really care less?
(2) Your relationship with the third-party (not your significant other). Is this a really good friend who you're always honest with? Is it someone you barely know?
(3) Your relationship with your significant other. Does he/she generally look for support from you in these situations? Is your support more important to him/her than just anyone's?
(4) Your SO's passion for the subject being argued.
(5) The seriousness of your relationship with your SO. Is it somewhat causual? Is this your life parnter?
(6) Your ego about seeming whimpy, passive or "pussy-whipped".
To me, it's silly to rely on some general rule, like "always be honest," or "be true to your love." You need to evaluate the situation at hand, weighing the above criteria.
Personally, I would never take sides against someone I love in public. I would either avoid the subject or lie. I would probably then be honest with my SO in private. According to my priorities, my relationship with my SO (and making her feel good) is much more important than my ego, my relationship with anyone else, or any topic of conversation. But I can't see how my answer would necessarily work for anyone else.
posted by grumblebee at 3:35 PM on April 23, 2004
It depends - is your relationship based on mutual respect and honesty, or outward appearances and emotional manipulation? If it's the former, then come right out and tell the truth. If the latter, lie your ass off, make high-pitched supportive noises, and you'll continue to get laid until you get sick of each other.
posted by majcher at 3:38 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by majcher at 3:38 PM on April 23, 2004
I don't see how anything other than being straightforward is ever the answer.
Rafter, I have an abstract respect for what you say, but I feel like we're living in two different worlds. For most people, there's not such a clean separation between self and ideas.
Your "butt" example AMAZES me, because many women are so self-conscious about their weight. Of COURSE they are, given what we're taught to find attractive.
If you've found a woman who (a) asks your opinion about her weight, and (b) is not wounded at all when you say, "actually you do look a little chubby today," I think you've actually found a space alien.
It's completely natural and human for our communications to be laced with unspoken messages. "You know, I think I actually prefer romance novels to Shakespeare," may carry the unspoken message of "Do you think I'm stupid?" If you're aware of this, you're being purposefully hurtful if you don't take it into account.
posted by grumblebee at 3:43 PM on April 23, 2004 [1 favorite]
Rafter, I have an abstract respect for what you say, but I feel like we're living in two different worlds. For most people, there's not such a clean separation between self and ideas.
Your "butt" example AMAZES me, because many women are so self-conscious about their weight. Of COURSE they are, given what we're taught to find attractive.
If you've found a woman who (a) asks your opinion about her weight, and (b) is not wounded at all when you say, "actually you do look a little chubby today," I think you've actually found a space alien.
It's completely natural and human for our communications to be laced with unspoken messages. "You know, I think I actually prefer romance novels to Shakespeare," may carry the unspoken message of "Do you think I'm stupid?" If you're aware of this, you're being purposefully hurtful if you don't take it into account.
posted by grumblebee at 3:43 PM on April 23, 2004 [1 favorite]
It depends - is your relationship based on mutual respect and honesty, or outward appearances and emotional manipulation? If it's the former, then come right out and tell the truth. If the latter, lie your ass off, make high-pitched supportive noises, and you'll continue to get laid until you get sick of each other.
Jesus! People are more complicated than that! My wife and I have been married for seven years. She's my best friend in all the world. We meaningfully all the time.
But neither of us want 100% honesty. I want to always feel that she is attracted to me, regardless of what the truth might be. If I come home really upset from the office, I don't want her to tell me that, actually, my boss is right and I'm wrong.
I want honesty from her, yes, but more than that I want love and support. Usually, love, support and honesty go hand-in-hand, but not always. When they are in conflict, I'll take love and support!
posted by grumblebee at 3:48 PM on April 23, 2004
Jesus! People are more complicated than that! My wife and I have been married for seven years. She's my best friend in all the world. We meaningfully all the time.
But neither of us want 100% honesty. I want to always feel that she is attracted to me, regardless of what the truth might be. If I come home really upset from the office, I don't want her to tell me that, actually, my boss is right and I'm wrong.
I want honesty from her, yes, but more than that I want love and support. Usually, love, support and honesty go hand-in-hand, but not always. When they are in conflict, I'll take love and support!
posted by grumblebee at 3:48 PM on April 23, 2004
There is a difference between intellectual honesty and emotional honesty, and rarely do the two meet. When a woman asks, "does my butt look big in this?", sometimes she is saying "should I buy this, or does my butt look big in this?". And sometimes she is saying "I think this makes me look good, so do I look good to you?" Figuring out which is which is tricky, but that's people for ya. But it's usually not a question of telling the truth vs. lying, it's usually a question of answering the question she is really asking you.
Some people will simply be temperamentally unable to understand this distinction. I've never known why.
(By using the example I did, I obviously don't mean to imply that men behave any differently than women in this respect. It's just an example.)
posted by gd779 at 3:52 PM on April 23, 2004
Some people will simply be temperamentally unable to understand this distinction. I've never known why.
(By using the example I did, I obviously don't mean to imply that men behave any differently than women in this respect. It's just an example.)
posted by gd779 at 3:52 PM on April 23, 2004
"Someone" is too vague. His/her boss? A mutual friend? A relative? Acquaintance? In every case, I would privately tell my S.O. if I thought they were wrong and the other person was right, but in an on-the-spot situation you can't get out of, it would vary. In most situations I would back up my S.O., even if I didn't have all the information and it seemed liked the other person was right. This is because I would be very surprised to see my baby get angry at something that didn't warrant it, and I would want to get his explanation.
If the other person were a friend, though, maybe not - because I also have a pretty good idea of what that person is all about and they, as a friend, also deserve my belief in them and my loyalty. In this case I would try to be be neutral, but if pressed would support the one I thought was right.
posted by taz at 3:56 PM on April 23, 2004
If the other person were a friend, though, maybe not - because I also have a pretty good idea of what that person is all about and they, as a friend, also deserve my belief in them and my loyalty. In this case I would try to be be neutral, but if pressed would support the one I thought was right.
posted by taz at 3:56 PM on April 23, 2004
But neither of us want 100% honesty.
Okay well there's your problem. Thread over?
posted by xmutex at 4:16 PM on April 23, 2004
Okay well there's your problem. Thread over?
posted by xmutex at 4:16 PM on April 23, 2004
Rafter, I have an abstract respect for what you say, but I feel like we're living in two different worlds.
I'll admit that my reply is somewhat idealistic. Your six dynamics (well, the first five at least [what's with number six, now?]) are a much more honest look at the situation.
If you've found a woman who (a) asks your opinion about her weight, and (b) is not wounded at all when you say, "actually you do look a little chubby today," I think you've actually found a space alien.
While this precise situation has never come up, to questions like, "What do you think of this dress?" I routinely give an honest answer (while putting it as nicely as I can, of course, should it be that the dress looks like something a 50s schoolteacher would wear). She'll often buy and wear the dress anyway, because she knows that my distaste for it does not particuarly matter to me).
posted by rafter at 4:16 PM on April 23, 2004
I'll admit that my reply is somewhat idealistic. Your six dynamics (well, the first five at least [what's with number six, now?]) are a much more honest look at the situation.
If you've found a woman who (a) asks your opinion about her weight, and (b) is not wounded at all when you say, "actually you do look a little chubby today," I think you've actually found a space alien.
While this precise situation has never come up, to questions like, "What do you think of this dress?" I routinely give an honest answer (while putting it as nicely as I can, of course, should it be that the dress looks like something a 50s schoolteacher would wear). She'll often buy and wear the dress anyway, because she knows that my distaste for it does not particuarly matter to me).
posted by rafter at 4:16 PM on April 23, 2004
Okay well there's your problem. Thread over?
Okay, but it's not my thread.
posted by grumblebee at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2004
Okay, but it's not my thread.
posted by grumblebee at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2004
There's nothing wrong with supporting someone even if you disagree with them. It all depends on the situation. If the matter at hand doesn't concern me at all, but concerns my SO greatly, I am likelier to concentrate on just seeing her point of view instead of seeing the Truth. People here keep pointing out that if your relationship can't handle the Truth, then it's doomed anyway, but I say you've got to be able to handle each other's perspectives as well.
It also depends on whether the disagreement is happening right there in the room in front of me, and I have to jump right in and start arguing, or whether the disagreement is an anecdote she brings home from work to tell me about, etc. If it's just a story from her life, and it won't affect me in the end, then it doesn't necessarily matter what I think. I support her as best I can. That might mean helping her laugh the whole thing off.
Anyway I don't lie and say things I don't believe just to buck her up, but there are times when I will hold my tongue, and simply repeat what she's saying back to her, as an active method of listening. I can and do disagree with her, but I pick my battles. I'm supposed to be her partner and support her. Sometimes this demands disagreement. Other times it precludes it.
Compromises? In relationships??? Go figure.
posted by scarabic at 5:33 PM on April 23, 2004
It also depends on whether the disagreement is happening right there in the room in front of me, and I have to jump right in and start arguing, or whether the disagreement is an anecdote she brings home from work to tell me about, etc. If it's just a story from her life, and it won't affect me in the end, then it doesn't necessarily matter what I think. I support her as best I can. That might mean helping her laugh the whole thing off.
Anyway I don't lie and say things I don't believe just to buck her up, but there are times when I will hold my tongue, and simply repeat what she's saying back to her, as an active method of listening. I can and do disagree with her, but I pick my battles. I'm supposed to be her partner and support her. Sometimes this demands disagreement. Other times it precludes it.
Compromises? In relationships??? Go figure.
posted by scarabic at 5:33 PM on April 23, 2004
This is a major issue in my relationship--with which, I should point out, I'm completely happy. I have a strong tendency to "correct" my girlfriend whenever I think she's wrong, and believe you me it's led to a lot of unnecessary fights.
See, the unspoken assumption here has been that you not only think your SO is wrong, but that you believe your opinion, your analysis, is The Truth. Don't blame me, honey, if you don't like what I'm saying, I'm just being honest.
Situations like this require a large helping of humility on the part of the disagreer. Unless your SO is your twin, you might want to consider activating your empathy chip and not becoming judgmental so quickly. You've got to ask what's more important. Is it making your SO happy and blunting their misery, or is it being right?
Your pride, or their feelings? 'Cause what you call integrity, I call pride.
So what would I do? My instinct would be to start with something like, "Well, you know..." My more considered reaction would be to do like grumblebee. He's right on the money.
posted by Khalad at 5:58 PM on April 23, 2004
See, the unspoken assumption here has been that you not only think your SO is wrong, but that you believe your opinion, your analysis, is The Truth. Don't blame me, honey, if you don't like what I'm saying, I'm just being honest.
Situations like this require a large helping of humility on the part of the disagreer. Unless your SO is your twin, you might want to consider activating your empathy chip and not becoming judgmental so quickly. You've got to ask what's more important. Is it making your SO happy and blunting their misery, or is it being right?
Your pride, or their feelings? 'Cause what you call integrity, I call pride.
So what would I do? My instinct would be to start with something like, "Well, you know..." My more considered reaction would be to do like grumblebee. He's right on the money.
posted by Khalad at 5:58 PM on April 23, 2004
consider activating your empathy chip
But, won't that make us all, like, useless in a firefight?
*ducks behind photon torpedo thingy weeping*
---
Also, what can Ayn Rand teach us about this question?
---
I'm not being helpful, am I.
I guess I'd do the shrugging, "Well, honey..." thing. Then later we'd be likely to discuss why a given opinion differed. Communication, dancing... it's the same thing, innit?
posted by mwhybark at 6:08 PM on April 23, 2004
But, won't that make us all, like, useless in a firefight?
*ducks behind photon torpedo thingy weeping*
---
Also, what can Ayn Rand teach us about this question?
---
I'm not being helpful, am I.
I guess I'd do the shrugging, "Well, honey..." thing. Then later we'd be likely to discuss why a given opinion differed. Communication, dancing... it's the same thing, innit?
posted by mwhybark at 6:08 PM on April 23, 2004
I agree with all the "it depends" answers. If it's either a) not important, or b) a serious argument with a mutual friend, I will generally be honest and forthright and explain my reasoning. If it's a serious argument with a stranger, especially if tempers are flaring, then ain't no way I'm going to take the stranger's side. Like, if my s.o.'s arguing with a police officer re: a speeding ticket, or his/her new roommate re: bathroom tidiness, I'm going to try to get out of there as quickly as possible and will endeavor to avoid taking a side at all. If I must choose a side, or if my s.o. is getting angry or upset, or most importantly, if the other person, despite being right, is also being a jackass, I'll take my s.o.'s side, because the rules of support in a committed relationship trump the truth. I might make an exception if the debate is about something intensely philosophical or ethical, like religion; but usually my s.o. and I are on the same page about stuff like whether god exists or whether my s.o. should accept bribes.
posted by evinrude at 6:26 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by evinrude at 6:26 PM on April 23, 2004
just tell her you're rick james , ok ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:08 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:08 PM on April 23, 2004
Also, what can Ayn Rand teach us about this question?
That 1=1. I was always curious what she thought 1+1 was equal to.
posted by scarabic at 7:20 PM on April 23, 2004
That 1=1. I was always curious what she thought 1+1 was equal to.
posted by scarabic at 7:20 PM on April 23, 2004
I hate when people pretend to agree with me. The closer I am to that person, the more I hate it, and the more it disrespects the relationship in my view.
posted by bingo at 9:51 PM on April 23, 2004
posted by bingo at 9:51 PM on April 23, 2004
I'm with bingo on this one. That said, there are many ways to disagree with your SO that don't necessarily have to involve relationship treason. I can back up my SO emotionally so he doesn't feel abandoned [which can often be the subtext when they are asking for backup] while still factually disagreeing with his interpretation of events in favor of the other person's. The way I see it, my SO and I are a team, but we are not the same person. He deserves my support more than almost anyone else BUT sometimes that support is a toughlove "I think you may have this one wrong" talking to. If he can't trust me to be honest with him, who can he trust...? This can get rocky in my relationship because my boyfriend sometimes has a hard time with the "I disagree with you on this specific issue, but I still think you are a right-on lady in most other ways" talk since I think at some level he's still a little shaken that we can so vigorously disagree on some things. For my part, I try not to rope him in to supporting me if I don't think he agrees with me, or I make it plain that I'm looking for emotional backup, not total adherence to my interpretation of events. It's a tough call, and working it out sometimes involves second-guessing what your SO is looking for, which can seem deceitful in and of itself sometimes.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on April 24, 2004 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on April 24, 2004 [1 favorite]
not to derail, but, grumblebee, you're wrong. there are women who will ask their s/o honest questions about how they look in particular clothes, seeking an honest answer. i'm one of them and among my close friends, i can think of at least five. i think you're selling people in general a little short if you think that we can't handle the honest answer to the question of whether a particular article of clothing is flattering or not.
posted by crush-onastick at 1:25 PM on April 24, 2004
posted by crush-onastick at 1:25 PM on April 24, 2004
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by haqspan at 2:43 PM on April 23, 2004