Law school?
July 18, 2007 9:05 AM Subscribe
SoulSearchFilter: Do I want to go to law school? Do I want to be a lawyer?
I'm graduating from undergrad this year, and I've recently been seriously weighing the prospect of going to law school. I'm a good student, I will do well on the LSAT and will most likely have the opportunity to go to a prestigious law school, do well, get recruited by biglaw, etcetera.
I have never been the I just know I want to be a lawyer type. Law has always interested me; I have a very analytical and logical mind by nature so law has always seemed like something that may naturally suit me, but as I find myself staring down the barrel I'm not sure if it's for me. The problem is I just don't know. The secure, relatively high-paying prospect of lawyerdom is promising, as I'd like to live comfortably--wouldn't we all--with a family at some point. On the flipside, I am not, I don't think, a money-trumps-everything person. I know too many people (lawyers and otherwise) who are miserable after ten years in their profession because they just don't like the work, money be damned.
I'd like to find something I enjoy. I don't have a problem working long hours (which is expected of most lawyers) but I think I would have trouble doing so if the work was totally uninteresting or unstimulating. I guess the ultimate problem here is that I am trying to do some serious soul-searching as I am coming to a major intersection in my life, but I'm not sure what questions I need to be asking myself to find the answers to said soul search. Any advice to be had, be it from career counseling-types, lawyer-types, those-who-expressly-chose-not-to-be-lawyer-types, or anyone?
Bonus question: On a related note, is it unwise to go to a prestigious law school, presumably incurring mountains of debt, if I'm not necessarily set on the biglaw track? Am I sacrificing my ability to choose not to be a lawyer in the future, given that if I do go to a top law school I will graduate with a pile of loans? That is, if I'm unsure about lawyerdom in the first place, should I look to go to a less prestigious law school that would perhaps give me a debt-free (or debt-reduced) J.D.?
I'm graduating from undergrad this year, and I've recently been seriously weighing the prospect of going to law school. I'm a good student, I will do well on the LSAT and will most likely have the opportunity to go to a prestigious law school, do well, get recruited by biglaw, etcetera.
I have never been the I just know I want to be a lawyer type. Law has always interested me; I have a very analytical and logical mind by nature so law has always seemed like something that may naturally suit me, but as I find myself staring down the barrel I'm not sure if it's for me. The problem is I just don't know. The secure, relatively high-paying prospect of lawyerdom is promising, as I'd like to live comfortably--wouldn't we all--with a family at some point. On the flipside, I am not, I don't think, a money-trumps-everything person. I know too many people (lawyers and otherwise) who are miserable after ten years in their profession because they just don't like the work, money be damned.
I'd like to find something I enjoy. I don't have a problem working long hours (which is expected of most lawyers) but I think I would have trouble doing so if the work was totally uninteresting or unstimulating. I guess the ultimate problem here is that I am trying to do some serious soul-searching as I am coming to a major intersection in my life, but I'm not sure what questions I need to be asking myself to find the answers to said soul search. Any advice to be had, be it from career counseling-types, lawyer-types, those-who-expressly-chose-not-to-be-lawyer-types, or anyone?
Bonus question: On a related note, is it unwise to go to a prestigious law school, presumably incurring mountains of debt, if I'm not necessarily set on the biglaw track? Am I sacrificing my ability to choose not to be a lawyer in the future, given that if I do go to a top law school I will graduate with a pile of loans? That is, if I'm unsure about lawyerdom in the first place, should I look to go to a less prestigious law school that would perhaps give me a debt-free (or debt-reduced) J.D.?
Just based on reading you're question, you sound like you're exactly where I was 2 years ago. In the end I chose not to go, and have never regretted it for an instant. For everyone 1 positive story about law school you read, there are 10 more from people who built mountains of debt before realizing that being a lawyer... can kinda suck.
posted by ZackTM at 9:12 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by ZackTM at 9:12 AM on July 18, 2007
If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school.
posted by k8t at 9:13 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by k8t at 9:13 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
What k8t said. The way I usually word it is: If you're not passionate about being a lawyer, don't go to law school.
posted by amro at 9:26 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by amro at 9:26 AM on July 18, 2007
Deciding not to go to law school is one of the best decisions you can make--too many people go without really thinking through why they're going and what they want out of it (yet still do quite well).
What exactly do you want to do? Is it that you're a smart person who wants a job that pays well, and you don't know what else to do? This describes most law students, in my experience. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that--it's kept the legal profession going for generations--but it can set you up for disillusionment down the road if you have interests or talents that aren't stimulated.
Biglaw jobs are lucrative but demanding, and not everyone finds the money makes it worthwhile. Don't ignore the other things you can do with a law degree--government, smaller firms, etc. (If the prospect of making a less-than-biglaw salary makes you roll your eyes, think what that says about your goals) But really, if and when you do apply, have a plan as to where you want to go, and how you're going to get there. Don't just start school and follow the herd because it seems like the "thing to do."
posted by Brian James at 9:26 AM on July 18, 2007
What exactly do you want to do? Is it that you're a smart person who wants a job that pays well, and you don't know what else to do? This describes most law students, in my experience. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that--it's kept the legal profession going for generations--but it can set you up for disillusionment down the road if you have interests or talents that aren't stimulated.
Biglaw jobs are lucrative but demanding, and not everyone finds the money makes it worthwhile. Don't ignore the other things you can do with a law degree--government, smaller firms, etc. (If the prospect of making a less-than-biglaw salary makes you roll your eyes, think what that says about your goals) But really, if and when you do apply, have a plan as to where you want to go, and how you're going to get there. Don't just start school and follow the herd because it seems like the "thing to do."
posted by Brian James at 9:26 AM on July 18, 2007
Do not go to law school directly out of undergraduate school. Just don't. I am a lawyer; I taught law students; I teach law topics to nonlaw graduate students. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT take on law school or law school debt without working with a lawyer mentor first to find out exactly how little of your analytical and logical mind you will be using day to day. Practicing law is pretty much unlike any depiction you have ever seen of it. Working for a living is pretty much unlike anything you've done up to now. Do that first, then decide if you want to be a lawyer.
Waiting to go to law school does not harm a legal career.
As for money, most professional salaries are on par with the average lawyer's salary (not the Big Law Lawyer Farm salary, but the salary of your average attorney). Of the people I know--technology professionals, marketing managers, full-time professors, advertising creatives, and some guys in finance--most of them make more than I do, and I've been an attorney for seven years.
I'm happy to engage in one-on-one with you about this. Tell you precisely what I like about my job (there are some things) and the endless litany of really shitty things about my profession. Email is in profile.
posted by crush-onastick at 9:27 AM on July 18, 2007
Waiting to go to law school does not harm a legal career.
As for money, most professional salaries are on par with the average lawyer's salary (not the Big Law Lawyer Farm salary, but the salary of your average attorney). Of the people I know--technology professionals, marketing managers, full-time professors, advertising creatives, and some guys in finance--most of them make more than I do, and I've been an attorney for seven years.
I'm happy to engage in one-on-one with you about this. Tell you precisely what I like about my job (there are some things) and the endless litany of really shitty things about my profession. Email is in profile.
posted by crush-onastick at 9:27 AM on July 18, 2007
What other careers appeal to you more? Would you want to do non-biglaw legal work? Just how good is your GPA, and finally, have you seen this?
posted by StrikeTheViol at 9:28 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by StrikeTheViol at 9:28 AM on July 18, 2007
You should also keep in mind the fact that this is also not your last (by any means) chance to go to law school. When I graduated from college back in 2002, I would rather have eaten glass than thought about going to law school. I went out into the world and worked for 5 years.
In 3 weeks I'm starting my 1L year. If you had asked me when I graduated if this would be my path, I'd have laughed at you, but here I am. I think my work experience also helped me get into a law school and obtain a scholarship I wouldn't have been able to get straight out of undergrad, not to mention the fact that it gave me the perspective I needed before going back to school.
posted by Inkoate at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2007
In 3 weeks I'm starting my 1L year. If you had asked me when I graduated if this would be my path, I'd have laughed at you, but here I am. I think my work experience also helped me get into a law school and obtain a scholarship I wouldn't have been able to get straight out of undergrad, not to mention the fact that it gave me the perspective I needed before going back to school.
posted by Inkoate at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2007
After watching lots of my friends and family members go through the process of LSATing, visiting, applying, accepting, attending, journaling, interning, job hunting, bar examing, etc. etc. etc., I am glad you are not taking this decision lightly.
In my sample circle of 12 law school students since '02, I'd say 9 of them chose well. They are personally and professionally fulfilled and were throughout much of law school.
The other 3, though... they had it tough the entire time. None of them passed their respective bar exams and only one is working in a field related to the work she had hoped to do from the beginning. The sad thing is it took soooo long and was such a difficult process for them the entire time, starting with the LSATs. I agree with spicynuts. If you are not sure now, check it out by doing some law work before you do the work of becoming a law student. Best of luck!
p.s. I'm sure people can come up with examples to the contrary, but even if you don't want to be a lawyer, having a JD doesn't hurt a job search.
posted by juliplease at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2007
In my sample circle of 12 law school students since '02, I'd say 9 of them chose well. They are personally and professionally fulfilled and were throughout much of law school.
The other 3, though... they had it tough the entire time. None of them passed their respective bar exams and only one is working in a field related to the work she had hoped to do from the beginning. The sad thing is it took soooo long and was such a difficult process for them the entire time, starting with the LSATs. I agree with spicynuts. If you are not sure now, check it out by doing some law work before you do the work of becoming a law student. Best of luck!
p.s. I'm sure people can come up with examples to the contrary, but even if you don't want to be a lawyer, having a JD doesn't hurt a job search.
posted by juliplease at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2007
If you still have time as an undergrad and if your school has a law school attached, I'd suggest sitting in on classes and asking a professor for advice/work/help for a senior thesis. It has its limits, notably that academic lawyers are a breed apart from BigLaw, but it can be a big help.
Law isn't just something for smart social science students who don't know what else to do. I've done enough law reading now to accept that it can be immensely boring and full of drudgery, but I also enjoy many aspects of it too.
Me? I'm in a similar situation and I'm hoping to work for a year before I decide. Unfortunately my parents are pushing me to go right to law school.
posted by melissam at 9:48 AM on July 18, 2007
Law isn't just something for smart social science students who don't know what else to do. I've done enough law reading now to accept that it can be immensely boring and full of drudgery, but I also enjoy many aspects of it too.
Me? I'm in a similar situation and I'm hoping to work for a year before I decide. Unfortunately my parents are pushing me to go right to law school.
posted by melissam at 9:48 AM on July 18, 2007
If you're considering going to law school, work as a paralegal first to find whether it's something that's right for you. If you decide it is, you might also want to get some non-legal experience in a different field that you can apply if and when ou do start working as a lawyer.
I would highly recommend working for a couple of years before going to law school and then being completely sure that it is what you want to do.
posted by andrewraff at 9:51 AM on July 18, 2007
I would highly recommend working for a couple of years before going to law school and then being completely sure that it is what you want to do.
posted by andrewraff at 9:51 AM on July 18, 2007
The average age of a 1st year law student is 26, btw. There is a LOT of room to grow. If you do end up applying, you're be more competitive later on with some work experience.
posted by k8t at 9:53 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by k8t at 9:53 AM on July 18, 2007
I was in your situation-- thinking that I wanted to avoid being forced into Big Law, I took a generous scholarship at a "lower-tier" law school rather than acceptance into a top ten one. The school experience was pretty great, I did well, and I likely would've hated every moment at the "better" school. As a warning though, the world of legal employment is an astonishingly clubby one, jobs are acquired by knowing people and alumni connections, and going to a "lower tier" school has, for me at least, made finding good jobs far, far more difficult. In my experience, if you go to a small school, your prospects for employment will be dicey outside of your school's immediate geographical region or legal specialty. A big school, while loading you down with more debt, may give you more career options.
As to your main question, I also recommend working as a paralegal or legal assistant for a year to get an experience into what the life of a lawyer is like. If you still want to go, you're the rare breed that's really cut out for it.
posted by bepe at 10:33 AM on July 18, 2007
As to your main question, I also recommend working as a paralegal or legal assistant for a year to get an experience into what the life of a lawyer is like. If you still want to go, you're the rare breed that's really cut out for it.
posted by bepe at 10:33 AM on July 18, 2007
I don't think anyone should go to law school directly from college. It's a huge commitment of time and money, and too many people go when they're not sure they want to be a lawyer. I worked for five years before deciding law school was for me. I wasn't working in a legal field, but saw a need for attorneys to help the population I worked with (people with mental illness). I think all the advice about getting a legal job before going to law school is great; I was worried about my lack of real legal experience before I took the leap and am lucky it's worked out.
I have friends who work in Big Law, and most of them hate their jobs. Quite frankly, the work is dull dull dull. It might get more interesting later on, but the first three years at least seem very unenjoyable from what I've seen. Lawyers have high rates of substance abuse and depression, and personally I think it's because so many legal jobs just suck. Of course, I've never had a Big Law job, so I'm giving you third hand info here.
As to the prestige of the school, big loans can trap you in Big Law, but a low-prestige school can trap you too, as bepe explained. For maximum flexibility, the ideal would be a prestigious school with generous scholarships and/or LRAP. But that's hard to find.
Working as a paralegal at a big firm would give you a much better idea of what being a lawyer is like, both as a job and as a life. You can also earn a ton of money working overtime. It's a win-win for someone in your position.
posted by Mavri at 11:14 AM on July 18, 2007
I have friends who work in Big Law, and most of them hate their jobs. Quite frankly, the work is dull dull dull. It might get more interesting later on, but the first three years at least seem very unenjoyable from what I've seen. Lawyers have high rates of substance abuse and depression, and personally I think it's because so many legal jobs just suck. Of course, I've never had a Big Law job, so I'm giving you third hand info here.
As to the prestige of the school, big loans can trap you in Big Law, but a low-prestige school can trap you too, as bepe explained. For maximum flexibility, the ideal would be a prestigious school with generous scholarships and/or LRAP. But that's hard to find.
Working as a paralegal at a big firm would give you a much better idea of what being a lawyer is like, both as a job and as a life. You can also earn a ton of money working overtime. It's a win-win for someone in your position.
posted by Mavri at 11:14 AM on July 18, 2007
Go to law school. It sounds like you would like being a lawyer. The reason I'm more optimistic than the "don't go if you aren't sure" folks is that you are keeping an open mind about everything (which school to attend; what kind of law to practice; where you'd like to end up living, etc.)
Going to a lower-ranked school will limit your options geographically but not necessarily limit them with respect to firm size or career opportunities. Keep that in mind when you apply. You should feel comfortable going to a Tier 2 law school in City X if you know you want to work in City X and there aren't any better law schools within a healthy radius. If you want to be in Cali, DC, NY, Boston, etc., the situation is more complicated and you'll have to either try your damndest to get into one of the elite schools, or do well at a lower-ranked school but one that is still somewhat nearby geographically.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:16 AM on July 18, 2007
Going to a lower-ranked school will limit your options geographically but not necessarily limit them with respect to firm size or career opportunities. Keep that in mind when you apply. You should feel comfortable going to a Tier 2 law school in City X if you know you want to work in City X and there aren't any better law schools within a healthy radius. If you want to be in Cali, DC, NY, Boston, etc., the situation is more complicated and you'll have to either try your damndest to get into one of the elite schools, or do well at a lower-ranked school but one that is still somewhat nearby geographically.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:16 AM on July 18, 2007
I have friends who work in Big Law, and most of them hate their jobs.
I work in a big firm and I like my job. These places aren't all soul-sucking meat grinders, you know. I did have the flexibility to choose my practice area, however, which gave me a leg up, since I was certain that I'd hate corporate work and real estate. YMMV.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:21 AM on July 18, 2007
I work in a big firm and I like my job. These places aren't all soul-sucking meat grinders, you know. I did have the flexibility to choose my practice area, however, which gave me a leg up, since I was certain that I'd hate corporate work and real estate. YMMV.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:21 AM on July 18, 2007
Having just graduated from law school, I'm of the view that almost no one is passionate about the law upon entering law school. In fact, a more than significant number don't even want to be there. However, after three years, some gain a passion for the law. Most, however, don't. Law school is a sort of default career path for many people. Don't let that be you.
posted by pantheON at 11:42 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by pantheON at 11:42 AM on July 18, 2007
Like ZackTM, I had the same crisis of conscience. I'm a nut for IP law and public policy. I like to argue. But I'm not into 80-hour weeks, power lunches, suits and ties, golfing or gladhanding. I took my LSAT, learned that my poor university grades weren't going to be an impedment due to my advancing age and work experience, and then said "fuck it".
Wasn't going to be worth it, for me. Instead, I'm working towards professional certification in my field, which should, in the long term, net me the same kind of pay while maintaining the kind of workstyle I enjoy.
In my experience, if you don't know, passionately, that you want to jump into a plan that will change your life, you probably shouldn't.
posted by solid-one-love at 1:24 PM on July 18, 2007
Wasn't going to be worth it, for me. Instead, I'm working towards professional certification in my field, which should, in the long term, net me the same kind of pay while maintaining the kind of workstyle I enjoy.
In my experience, if you don't know, passionately, that you want to jump into a plan that will change your life, you probably shouldn't.
posted by solid-one-love at 1:24 PM on July 18, 2007
Hi cklennon, and other mefi law types.
I'm a 2L at a top 25 school, working for the summer as a judicial clerk. I did the opposite of what many of the posters have suggested, and went straight from undergrad to law school. I had considered law school since 8th grade or so, but had kept other options open. During my summers in undergrad, I worked at a couple different firms as a legal assistant. I'm happy with my decision, but I think only because I had worked in a firm and had some idea of what actually working in a firm was like. I suggest you do the same. Like I said, I'm happy with where I'm at, but I definately have friends who aren't. They're generally those who went to law school for lack of something better to do. That's not a very good idea.
I'm probably going to end up in prosecution, since it fits with my personality and the kind of work I'm looking for. YMMV, and probably will.
As for what law school you want to go to, a lot of people will make a big deal about going to the best school you're admitted to. Personally, I think it all depends on the situation. I ended up going to the 2nd best law school I got in to. It was $70k cheaper than the first school due to scholarships, it fit me better, and it still has a reputation that allows me to travel anywhere in the country with my degree. If possible though, I'd suggest staying within the top 50, just to keep your options open. Again though, it depends on LSAT scores, geography, money. Don't let the US News dictate everything.
Study hard for the LSAT while you're working for the firm, and good luck.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:39 PM on July 18, 2007
I'm a 2L at a top 25 school, working for the summer as a judicial clerk. I did the opposite of what many of the posters have suggested, and went straight from undergrad to law school. I had considered law school since 8th grade or so, but had kept other options open. During my summers in undergrad, I worked at a couple different firms as a legal assistant. I'm happy with my decision, but I think only because I had worked in a firm and had some idea of what actually working in a firm was like. I suggest you do the same. Like I said, I'm happy with where I'm at, but I definately have friends who aren't. They're generally those who went to law school for lack of something better to do. That's not a very good idea.
I'm probably going to end up in prosecution, since it fits with my personality and the kind of work I'm looking for. YMMV, and probably will.
As for what law school you want to go to, a lot of people will make a big deal about going to the best school you're admitted to. Personally, I think it all depends on the situation. I ended up going to the 2nd best law school I got in to. It was $70k cheaper than the first school due to scholarships, it fit me better, and it still has a reputation that allows me to travel anywhere in the country with my degree. If possible though, I'd suggest staying within the top 50, just to keep your options open. Again though, it depends on LSAT scores, geography, money. Don't let the US News dictate everything.
Study hard for the LSAT while you're working for the firm, and good luck.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:39 PM on July 18, 2007
1. I second everyone who says you shouldn't go to law school without first figuring out what you'd like to do. I went right from undergrad, but I had worked during summers and breaks at a law firm, so I knew what I was in for.
2. What kind of law school you should go to depends on several things. Do you know where you'd like to end up? If so, going to a local law school might serve you well (i.e. University of Cincinnati in Cincinnati). If you don't have any idea, a school with a more national reputation may be better suited. However, pay careful attention to the costs and to the school's debt repayment program. Your options may be limited by the price you pay for school. Your options may also be limited (and your decision where to go helped) by how hard you want to work -- if you go to a non-top25 school, but are first in your class, get on law review, etc, you're alright. If you go to a third tier school and are in teh bottom of your class, you may also be alright, but it might take you longer to get there. It is hard to realistically decide, I think, where you will fall.
(For example, I went to a top-10 law school, and made a semi-conscious decision not to work as hard as I possibly could. Ending up in the middle of the class was fine for what I wanted to do -- which was end up in a midsized market in the midwest at a big firm. I have a lot of debt. I work with people who went to local schools, have no debt, and make the same amount as me. They are ahead of me. I don't regret my choice because when I started I didn't know exactly where I wanted to end up. But if I had known..... I could have gone on scholarship and have mad money now. So think hard about it.)
Having a mentor is important. Good mentoring is hard to do by email, but my email is in the profile if you want to talk it out more.
posted by dpx.mfx at 2:14 PM on July 18, 2007
2. What kind of law school you should go to depends on several things. Do you know where you'd like to end up? If so, going to a local law school might serve you well (i.e. University of Cincinnati in Cincinnati). If you don't have any idea, a school with a more national reputation may be better suited. However, pay careful attention to the costs and to the school's debt repayment program. Your options may be limited by the price you pay for school. Your options may also be limited (and your decision where to go helped) by how hard you want to work -- if you go to a non-top25 school, but are first in your class, get on law review, etc, you're alright. If you go to a third tier school and are in teh bottom of your class, you may also be alright, but it might take you longer to get there. It is hard to realistically decide, I think, where you will fall.
(For example, I went to a top-10 law school, and made a semi-conscious decision not to work as hard as I possibly could. Ending up in the middle of the class was fine for what I wanted to do -- which was end up in a midsized market in the midwest at a big firm. I have a lot of debt. I work with people who went to local schools, have no debt, and make the same amount as me. They are ahead of me. I don't regret my choice because when I started I didn't know exactly where I wanted to end up. But if I had known..... I could have gone on scholarship and have mad money now. So think hard about it.)
Having a mentor is important. Good mentoring is hard to do by email, but my email is in the profile if you want to talk it out more.
posted by dpx.mfx at 2:14 PM on July 18, 2007
I'm going to take on The World Famous and say that having a JD DOES NOT suck for every non-legal job. I know many, many of my fellow law school graduates who are not practicing law and have quite fulfilling careers. A JD is regarded as graduate work. No matter where you go. Graduate work is normally a good thing (with a few specific exceptions) and is a positive to many employers. It shows a tenacity to learn, to pick up something new, and it provides an additional "feather in your cap" to beat out other candidates.
It helped me.
posted by MeetMegan at 3:16 PM on July 18, 2007
It helped me.
posted by MeetMegan at 3:16 PM on July 18, 2007
Response by poster: First of all, a big thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. This is one of, if not the, toughest decisions I have ever faced and I appreciate the insight that has been given so far.
Let me make a few addenda:
1. I am currently working in a large law firm, as a "Summer Case Clerk," which is effectively as an intern. This has been helpful for me in a lot of the ways you all have suggested working in a firm would be, however, for two reasons it's not really all that helpful in making a decision. First, the work is not that stimulating. It's, in all honesty, only a few rungs above paper pushing, so I'm not really getting a feel for what it may be like to be an attorney in this type of law firm. And second, the branch of law I'm working in (Commercial Real Estate/Mortgage/Debt) is one that seems mundane and tedious and I would, in all honesty, have no real interest in pursuing it as a career. I didn't really have any great freedom in choosing this; it was merely handed to me.
Also, for what it's worth, I am relatively close with several of the full-time, year-round "Case Clerks" at my firm, who are recent graduates, and most of them, even while/after working for the firm in a Case Clerk capacity--one which is expressly designed to help recent graduates decide if "the law is for them"--have no idea whether they really want to go to law school. Point being, I'm not so convinced that working for a firm in any capacity other than as an actual lawyer is going to help me decide whether I want to be an actual lawyer. I obviously could be wrong.
2. Someone asked...my undergrad GPA is good, but not great, about a 3.5 from a prestigious T15 university. I know that is not really that good in the grand scheme of things when it comes to law schools, but I anticipate scoring in the low to mid 170's on the LSAT from how I've done in studying and practicing for it. That is pretty good, and while I have no delusions of going to Yale/Harvard/Stanford, I think with a 3.5GPA and 171-174LSAT I should get into a top-tier law-school.
3. I understand and accept the advice to be wary of going into law school simply because I don't know what else to do, but in all honesty, there's nothing else that particularly grabs my interest any more than law. So I feel as though if I just went into Finance or Business, I would really be following a different path but for the same motives (or more accurately lack thereof). Granted, following another path with no particular reason doesn't require the 3-year J.D. commitment and potential debt that going to law school with no particular reason does, but in the existential sense, if not the practical, I don't really see much of a difference in the two.
4. The World Famous: Could you please elaborate on how having a J.D. "absolutely will hurt a non-legal job search in every instance?" I don't really see the insight behind that, and have been told and led to believe otherwise by numerous people, both AMeFites and otherwise. You may be overqualified for certain jobs with a J.D., which might mean you've wasted 3 years and a pile of cash, but how does it hurt a non-legal job search?
Also, I have heard from others, and accept with open ears your advice that one should "figure out what you really really love to do, then figure out how to make a living doing it or something directly related to it, then do that for a living, even if it means inventing a previously nonexistent career path." I guess my problem is I don't know what it is I really love to do, and I'm not sure how to go about figuring it out. As I've grown older, gone through high school and college, I always sort of assumed one day it would just come to me, I would figure out what it was I truly enjoyed...but it hasn't.
And finally, a lot of this is hard to decide given that I am just graduating, I haven't taken the LSAT yet, and therefore haven't applied to, or obviously heard from, law schools. I plan on doing all that before I make a final decision, with the knowledge that it can't really hurt to apply and see how my options look then.
Thanks again for all the help, and I will soon email those in the thread who expressed a willingness to speak with me outside of AMeFi. Thanks especially to you all.
posted by jckll at 3:20 PM on July 18, 2007
Let me make a few addenda:
1. I am currently working in a large law firm, as a "Summer Case Clerk," which is effectively as an intern. This has been helpful for me in a lot of the ways you all have suggested working in a firm would be, however, for two reasons it's not really all that helpful in making a decision. First, the work is not that stimulating. It's, in all honesty, only a few rungs above paper pushing, so I'm not really getting a feel for what it may be like to be an attorney in this type of law firm. And second, the branch of law I'm working in (Commercial Real Estate/Mortgage/Debt) is one that seems mundane and tedious and I would, in all honesty, have no real interest in pursuing it as a career. I didn't really have any great freedom in choosing this; it was merely handed to me.
Also, for what it's worth, I am relatively close with several of the full-time, year-round "Case Clerks" at my firm, who are recent graduates, and most of them, even while/after working for the firm in a Case Clerk capacity--one which is expressly designed to help recent graduates decide if "the law is for them"--have no idea whether they really want to go to law school. Point being, I'm not so convinced that working for a firm in any capacity other than as an actual lawyer is going to help me decide whether I want to be an actual lawyer. I obviously could be wrong.
2. Someone asked...my undergrad GPA is good, but not great, about a 3.5 from a prestigious T15 university. I know that is not really that good in the grand scheme of things when it comes to law schools, but I anticipate scoring in the low to mid 170's on the LSAT from how I've done in studying and practicing for it. That is pretty good, and while I have no delusions of going to Yale/Harvard/Stanford, I think with a 3.5GPA and 171-174LSAT I should get into a top-tier law-school.
3. I understand and accept the advice to be wary of going into law school simply because I don't know what else to do, but in all honesty, there's nothing else that particularly grabs my interest any more than law. So I feel as though if I just went into Finance or Business, I would really be following a different path but for the same motives (or more accurately lack thereof). Granted, following another path with no particular reason doesn't require the 3-year J.D. commitment and potential debt that going to law school with no particular reason does, but in the existential sense, if not the practical, I don't really see much of a difference in the two.
4. The World Famous: Could you please elaborate on how having a J.D. "absolutely will hurt a non-legal job search in every instance?" I don't really see the insight behind that, and have been told and led to believe otherwise by numerous people, both AMeFites and otherwise. You may be overqualified for certain jobs with a J.D., which might mean you've wasted 3 years and a pile of cash, but how does it hurt a non-legal job search?
Also, I have heard from others, and accept with open ears your advice that one should "figure out what you really really love to do, then figure out how to make a living doing it or something directly related to it, then do that for a living, even if it means inventing a previously nonexistent career path." I guess my problem is I don't know what it is I really love to do, and I'm not sure how to go about figuring it out. As I've grown older, gone through high school and college, I always sort of assumed one day it would just come to me, I would figure out what it was I truly enjoyed...but it hasn't.
And finally, a lot of this is hard to decide given that I am just graduating, I haven't taken the LSAT yet, and therefore haven't applied to, or obviously heard from, law schools. I plan on doing all that before I make a final decision, with the knowledge that it can't really hurt to apply and see how my options look then.
Thanks again for all the help, and I will soon email those in the thread who expressed a willingness to speak with me outside of AMeFi. Thanks especially to you all.
posted by jckll at 3:20 PM on July 18, 2007
"A candidate with a J.D. has three years of non-relevant experience to a non-legal job compared with otherwise equally qualified candidates, and can reasonably be assumed to have higher salary requirements due to student loan debt incurred getting a degree that's not directly relevant to the job."
Yes. AND... you're going to have to convince them that you're not going to jump ship the minute you find a legal job that appeals to you. You might think this is as easy as just telling them you don't want to be a lawyer, but this is exactly what they'd expect you to say.
Nthing "if in doubt, wait it out." Going to law school because you don't know what else to do is a horrible, no good, very bad idea.
Don't worry too much about debt. I will be graduating with nearly $200,000 in debt (Law School & Undergrad) and I will almost certainly be taking a job that makes me at or below $50,000 a year. It will take me a little longer to pay it off, and I will need to live a little more frugally than if I went BigLaw or had gone to a cheaper law school, but at the end of the day, neither of those things are a big deal to me because I really, really enjoy what I'm going to be doing.
posted by toomuchpete at 3:57 PM on July 18, 2007
Yes. AND... you're going to have to convince them that you're not going to jump ship the minute you find a legal job that appeals to you. You might think this is as easy as just telling them you don't want to be a lawyer, but this is exactly what they'd expect you to say.
Nthing "if in doubt, wait it out." Going to law school because you don't know what else to do is a horrible, no good, very bad idea.
Don't worry too much about debt. I will be graduating with nearly $200,000 in debt (Law School & Undergrad) and I will almost certainly be taking a job that makes me at or below $50,000 a year. It will take me a little longer to pay it off, and I will need to live a little more frugally than if I went BigLaw or had gone to a cheaper law school, but at the end of the day, neither of those things are a big deal to me because I really, really enjoy what I'm going to be doing.
posted by toomuchpete at 3:57 PM on July 18, 2007
Some of my personal experience won't be of much assistance to you since I went to law school in Quebec, where the 4 years (for two law degrees) cost me under $10K Cdn (at the time nowhere near par with USD). However, I can say that law was my second choice - my first choice was medical school (didn't get in). I didn't enjoy law school very much (except one semester on exchange in Oz - I thoroughly recommend looking into any exchange programs offered at whatever law school you end up going to - if you go).
But, really, no worries, because being a lawyer has very little to do with law school. Law school is designed to teach you how to THINK like a lawyer, not how to practice law. If you are analytical and logical - and you are likely going to score high on the LSAT - you are most of the way there (I recall reading somewhere that the LSAT is a very good predictor of how well someone will succeed at law school - which of course is no indication of how they will succeed at being a lawyer).
If you want to go into BigLaw - you likely will want to go to the most prestigious law school you can afford. Other options in law are more dependent on who you are, rather than where you went/how well you did at school.
I work in criminal law, as a prosecutor, and highly enjoy my work. Quite a few of my classmates ended up in the same field - there's a lot of satisfaction and challenge available in the criminal law (though not a huge amount of money - though few 80 hour work weeks nor timesheets either...). You may find, on the other hand, that you really enjoy the academics of law - and going on to a graduate degree in law may be in the future.
I completely disagree with The World Famous since I think a JD can be a tremendous advantage in many fields outside law - management, consulting etc. where legal analysis skills and comfort with legalese in contracts and other documents are a boon.
I agree with many who say there is no rush - many of my classmates were "mature students", and real world work experience can be an asset in law school. I went directly from undergrad, because, like you, I didn't know what else I wanted to do, and thought that at the least, since I am a logical kinda guy, I might enjoy law. It turns out that I do, a lot - but again, as I said, law school - not so much.
There certainly isn't a right or wrong answer (which is typical of anything to do with law). Going to law school now will not be a bad decision. Doing something else, with the thought that you may or may not return to law school later won't be a bad decision either.
My initial reaction on reading your question is that you are probably not gearing up for BigLaw (most of the people interested in that track know from well before 1L that they will be busting their butt to be at or near the top of the rankings to ensure that they have the most/best offers). I would recommend extensively researching the penultimate tier of law schools, looking for courses and professors you are interested in. Far better to get a foot in on a field of law that piques your interest rather than stressing about the GPA needed to get an offer from a prestigious firm. I didn't know initially what area of law I was interested in, but I KNEW I wasn't going into BigLaw. When I found criminal law, I knew it was a fit, and I haven't looked back.
Email in my profile if you would like other details. And, for what it is worth, some of the Canadian schools are not too shabby from a prestige/cost analysis.
posted by birdsquared at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2007
But, really, no worries, because being a lawyer has very little to do with law school. Law school is designed to teach you how to THINK like a lawyer, not how to practice law. If you are analytical and logical - and you are likely going to score high on the LSAT - you are most of the way there (I recall reading somewhere that the LSAT is a very good predictor of how well someone will succeed at law school - which of course is no indication of how they will succeed at being a lawyer).
If you want to go into BigLaw - you likely will want to go to the most prestigious law school you can afford. Other options in law are more dependent on who you are, rather than where you went/how well you did at school.
I work in criminal law, as a prosecutor, and highly enjoy my work. Quite a few of my classmates ended up in the same field - there's a lot of satisfaction and challenge available in the criminal law (though not a huge amount of money - though few 80 hour work weeks nor timesheets either...). You may find, on the other hand, that you really enjoy the academics of law - and going on to a graduate degree in law may be in the future.
I completely disagree with The World Famous since I think a JD can be a tremendous advantage in many fields outside law - management, consulting etc. where legal analysis skills and comfort with legalese in contracts and other documents are a boon.
I agree with many who say there is no rush - many of my classmates were "mature students", and real world work experience can be an asset in law school. I went directly from undergrad, because, like you, I didn't know what else I wanted to do, and thought that at the least, since I am a logical kinda guy, I might enjoy law. It turns out that I do, a lot - but again, as I said, law school - not so much.
There certainly isn't a right or wrong answer (which is typical of anything to do with law). Going to law school now will not be a bad decision. Doing something else, with the thought that you may or may not return to law school later won't be a bad decision either.
My initial reaction on reading your question is that you are probably not gearing up for BigLaw (most of the people interested in that track know from well before 1L that they will be busting their butt to be at or near the top of the rankings to ensure that they have the most/best offers). I would recommend extensively researching the penultimate tier of law schools, looking for courses and professors you are interested in. Far better to get a foot in on a field of law that piques your interest rather than stressing about the GPA needed to get an offer from a prestigious firm. I didn't know initially what area of law I was interested in, but I KNEW I wasn't going into BigLaw. When I found criminal law, I knew it was a fit, and I haven't looked back.
Email in my profile if you would like other details. And, for what it is worth, some of the Canadian schools are not too shabby from a prestige/cost analysis.
posted by birdsquared at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2007
What a timely question, cklennon!!
i am struggling with the exact same question right now.
thank you all for the invaluable comments here!!!
posted by kingfish at 9:33 AM on July 19, 2007
i am struggling with the exact same question right now.
thank you all for the invaluable comments here!!!
posted by kingfish at 9:33 AM on July 19, 2007
I just graduated from law school in May. I'm currently studying to take the NY and MA bar exams (3 day exam) next week. Here is how I got where I am.
When I was an undergrad, I majored in Computer Science and Math. I graduated with a BS and BA respectively. At that time, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Just to be safe, I took the GREs, GMATs, and LSATs.
At the time, my options were as such:
1. Start working (either as a programmer or at 7-11)
2. Go to grad school for CS or Math
3. Go to Business School
4. Go to law school
I took a whole year off after graduation from college. During that year, I stayed in my college town and continued to do what I did in college (driving a bus). In that year, I did a lot of soul searching.
I realized that in this day and age, I wasn't going to get anywhere with just an undergrad degree. So option 1 above was out. I also realized that I didn't wanna program or be locked in an office with no sunlight all my life working on snipets of code or solving equations. So option 2 was out. It was now betwee going to business school (and getting an MBA) or going to law school (and getting a JD).
In the end I decided to go to law school. It wasn't because I ever had a great passion to go to law school nor did I ever dream of becoming a lawyer. My rationale at the time (and still is) that anyone can open and operate a business, but not everyone can be a lawyer. You don't need a MBA to do business, but you do need a JD to be a lawyer. That is why I chose to go to law school.
It was tough at first. It wasn't what I was used to in college. I never had to read or write much in college because I was a CS and math major. When I first started, I also had the notion that ALL lawyers worked ridiculous hours and ALL lawyers were corporate lawyers at BIG FIRMS. This is because it is the traditional stereotype of a lawyer that you see on TV.
Now that 3 years have passed and I've gone through law school and I've worked for a myriad of judges, law firms, public interest organizations, etc., I realized that there is a lot more to being a lawyer than what I described above.
It's a business. It's a wide business. In the end, I chose not to do corporate law, working 30 hours a day, for a big firm, and making HUGE amounts of money. I instead am choosing to do what I discovered I love in law school. I'm going into family law. Big firms don't normally do family law and so I'm working for a smaller firm. The pay is not as HUGE, but it's something I love to do. It's something I've grown to be passionate about. And on top of that, I work roughly 9-5. Another good thing is that I get to interact with clients (which most corporate lawyers don't do) and I get to go to court (which most corporate lawyers don't do).
In short, if you decide to go to law school, it's ultimately your choice. Don't listen to the people up top who say that you MUST NOT go to law school right after college, or that that you MUST work in the legal field before going to law school. I did none of those things and I've turned out to love what I do.
This is simply my story and I hope you found some inspiration in it. There is no certainty or MUST, there's only the hope and possibility.
Good luck!
posted by pikaboy202 at 9:51 PM on July 19, 2007
When I was an undergrad, I majored in Computer Science and Math. I graduated with a BS and BA respectively. At that time, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Just to be safe, I took the GREs, GMATs, and LSATs.
At the time, my options were as such:
1. Start working (either as a programmer or at 7-11)
2. Go to grad school for CS or Math
3. Go to Business School
4. Go to law school
I took a whole year off after graduation from college. During that year, I stayed in my college town and continued to do what I did in college (driving a bus). In that year, I did a lot of soul searching.
I realized that in this day and age, I wasn't going to get anywhere with just an undergrad degree. So option 1 above was out. I also realized that I didn't wanna program or be locked in an office with no sunlight all my life working on snipets of code or solving equations. So option 2 was out. It was now betwee going to business school (and getting an MBA) or going to law school (and getting a JD).
In the end I decided to go to law school. It wasn't because I ever had a great passion to go to law school nor did I ever dream of becoming a lawyer. My rationale at the time (and still is) that anyone can open and operate a business, but not everyone can be a lawyer. You don't need a MBA to do business, but you do need a JD to be a lawyer. That is why I chose to go to law school.
It was tough at first. It wasn't what I was used to in college. I never had to read or write much in college because I was a CS and math major. When I first started, I also had the notion that ALL lawyers worked ridiculous hours and ALL lawyers were corporate lawyers at BIG FIRMS. This is because it is the traditional stereotype of a lawyer that you see on TV.
Now that 3 years have passed and I've gone through law school and I've worked for a myriad of judges, law firms, public interest organizations, etc., I realized that there is a lot more to being a lawyer than what I described above.
It's a business. It's a wide business. In the end, I chose not to do corporate law, working 30 hours a day, for a big firm, and making HUGE amounts of money. I instead am choosing to do what I discovered I love in law school. I'm going into family law. Big firms don't normally do family law and so I'm working for a smaller firm. The pay is not as HUGE, but it's something I love to do. It's something I've grown to be passionate about. And on top of that, I work roughly 9-5. Another good thing is that I get to interact with clients (which most corporate lawyers don't do) and I get to go to court (which most corporate lawyers don't do).
In short, if you decide to go to law school, it's ultimately your choice. Don't listen to the people up top who say that you MUST NOT go to law school right after college, or that that you MUST work in the legal field before going to law school. I did none of those things and I've turned out to love what I do.
This is simply my story and I hope you found some inspiration in it. There is no certainty or MUST, there's only the hope and possibility.
Good luck!
posted by pikaboy202 at 9:51 PM on July 19, 2007
I generally fall in the "don't go to law school unless you are passionate about being a lawyer." And despite what the World Famous says, I know from old law school friends that having a JD helped them get jobs in corporate America. Maybe World Famous was talking about it hurting your chances at getting a job at Starbucks or as a bank teller, but any sort of job that I presume you would be looking for probably isn't the kind of job that is going to look down on JDs.
You focusing on the wrong issues. I wouldn't worry about debt. That is such a non-issue. Yeah it sucks. But you can consolidate it and get like 30 years to pay it off at ridiculously low interest rates. I wouldn't consider that being an issue (unless you are in a situation where you need money fast). Nor would I make decisions based on whether you think you can go to a certain law school and work at a certain big firm. Those aren't the questions to be asking yourself. The question you should be asking yourself is whether there is an area of the law you are passionate about.
The law is a vast beast. I'm often amazed at how varied the subject areas one can practice in as a lawyer. You mentioned you worked at a Real Estate/Mortgage law firm, and all I can say is that is a small niche area of the law. If I had to do title/mortgage law for a living, I'd shoot myself. I'd rather eat paint chips in a sweat shop then do that. The only thing that would be worse, in my opinion, is tax law. But I love doing what I do. It's completely different. So I would say to do some research about all the different types of law out there.
If you find one that you would like, then consider law school. If you don't, then don't go to law school even if you think you can make bank and get into a good one.
In short, make your decision based on how you feel about the law, not based on what kind of career you think you can make for yourself. The law is not a career. It is a profession for dedicated people.
posted by dios at 1:08 PM on July 20, 2007
You focusing on the wrong issues. I wouldn't worry about debt. That is such a non-issue. Yeah it sucks. But you can consolidate it and get like 30 years to pay it off at ridiculously low interest rates. I wouldn't consider that being an issue (unless you are in a situation where you need money fast). Nor would I make decisions based on whether you think you can go to a certain law school and work at a certain big firm. Those aren't the questions to be asking yourself. The question you should be asking yourself is whether there is an area of the law you are passionate about.
The law is a vast beast. I'm often amazed at how varied the subject areas one can practice in as a lawyer. You mentioned you worked at a Real Estate/Mortgage law firm, and all I can say is that is a small niche area of the law. If I had to do title/mortgage law for a living, I'd shoot myself. I'd rather eat paint chips in a sweat shop then do that. The only thing that would be worse, in my opinion, is tax law. But I love doing what I do. It's completely different. So I would say to do some research about all the different types of law out there.
If you find one that you would like, then consider law school. If you don't, then don't go to law school even if you think you can make bank and get into a good one.
In short, make your decision based on how you feel about the law, not based on what kind of career you think you can make for yourself. The law is not a career. It is a profession for dedicated people.
posted by dios at 1:08 PM on July 20, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by spicynuts at 9:07 AM on July 18, 2007