How to discourage trespassing neighbors?
June 8, 2007 11:16 PM Subscribe
How do I discourage neighbors from trespassing in my courtyard?
My roommate and I rent a 3BR with a courtyard in Cambridge, MA. There is an adjacent house, owned by the same landlords, with two units, each of which has a fire escape through the courtyard. The first-floor unit has a door opening directly onto the courtyard, the second-floor unit has a circular staircase outside a window. Both of these units have separate main entrances.
We were told verbally before leasing the apartment that the courtyard would be exclusively ours, and not shared with the other units. This was significant to us, as there is very little privacy between the courtyard and our living space. This is not, however, explicit in our lease (I know -- we screwed up here).
New tenants recently moved into the first floor apartment. They thought the courtyard was to be shared (possibly based on an agreement between the previous tenants of their unit and the previous tenants of our unit). We, of course, thought otherwise. We asked the landlords for clarification, and they reiterated (via email) that the courtyard could be used for "emergency fire egress" by residents of the other units, but otherwise was part of our rental. The new first floor tenants have seen this email, but continue to use the courtyard. We are not pleased.
I'm interested in any advice on how to accomplish the following, in order of descending importance:
1st: Convince the new tenants of the adjacent unit to respect our privacy and stay out of our home,
2nd: Not annoy our landlords (or, say, the police),
a distant 3rd: Not upset the neighbors any more than we have to. At this point, we're unlikely to become friends, but I'd rather not make enemies. Although if that's the way it has to be, at least my next question should be more entertaining...
My roommate and I rent a 3BR with a courtyard in Cambridge, MA. There is an adjacent house, owned by the same landlords, with two units, each of which has a fire escape through the courtyard. The first-floor unit has a door opening directly onto the courtyard, the second-floor unit has a circular staircase outside a window. Both of these units have separate main entrances.
We were told verbally before leasing the apartment that the courtyard would be exclusively ours, and not shared with the other units. This was significant to us, as there is very little privacy between the courtyard and our living space. This is not, however, explicit in our lease (I know -- we screwed up here).
New tenants recently moved into the first floor apartment. They thought the courtyard was to be shared (possibly based on an agreement between the previous tenants of their unit and the previous tenants of our unit). We, of course, thought otherwise. We asked the landlords for clarification, and they reiterated (via email) that the courtyard could be used for "emergency fire egress" by residents of the other units, but otherwise was part of our rental. The new first floor tenants have seen this email, but continue to use the courtyard. We are not pleased.
I'm interested in any advice on how to accomplish the following, in order of descending importance:
1st: Convince the new tenants of the adjacent unit to respect our privacy and stay out of our home,
2nd: Not annoy our landlords (or, say, the police),
a distant 3rd: Not upset the neighbors any more than we have to. At this point, we're unlikely to become friends, but I'd rather not make enemies. Although if that's the way it has to be, at least my next question should be more entertaining...
The first-floor unit has a door opening directly onto the courtyard, the second-floor unit has a circular staircase outside a window. Both of these units have separate main entrances.
If I lived in a unit that had a door opening directly on to the courtyard, I would think it was mine to use unless I was explicitly told it was not. You're going to be hard pressed to tell these people to stay out of "your courtyard" without annoying the crap out of them.
Even after seeing the email, there's just something about it being outside and literally adjacent to their door that's going to make them feel at home.
You can either talk to them again and ask them to stop using it knowing you're forever going to be deemed the asshole neighbor regardless of the lease terms, or you can learn to play nice with neighbors and share the courtyard.
At the end of the day, it's up to you. If it irritates you that much to see someone sitting on a chair out in an open-air space that you feel is yours that it's worth being perceived as the asshole neighbor, then talk to them about it and failing that, talk to your landlord.
Otherwise, try being social and friendly and offer up shared use of the courtyard formally, noting that if you're having a party or event of some sort, you'd like them to do you the courtesy of freeing it up for you as it's technically your property, and you'll let them know. That's about as much as you can ask for without looking like a jerk (even though the landlord has said it's "your property", perception and reality are just two different things)
posted by twiggy at 11:55 PM on June 8, 2007
If I lived in a unit that had a door opening directly on to the courtyard, I would think it was mine to use unless I was explicitly told it was not. You're going to be hard pressed to tell these people to stay out of "your courtyard" without annoying the crap out of them.
Even after seeing the email, there's just something about it being outside and literally adjacent to their door that's going to make them feel at home.
You can either talk to them again and ask them to stop using it knowing you're forever going to be deemed the asshole neighbor regardless of the lease terms, or you can learn to play nice with neighbors and share the courtyard.
At the end of the day, it's up to you. If it irritates you that much to see someone sitting on a chair out in an open-air space that you feel is yours that it's worth being perceived as the asshole neighbor, then talk to them about it and failing that, talk to your landlord.
Otherwise, try being social and friendly and offer up shared use of the courtyard formally, noting that if you're having a party or event of some sort, you'd like them to do you the courtesy of freeing it up for you as it's technically your property, and you'll let them know. That's about as much as you can ask for without looking like a jerk (even though the landlord has said it's "your property", perception and reality are just two different things)
posted by twiggy at 11:55 PM on June 8, 2007
First, can you clarify "using the courtyard"? Are they using the courtyard to get to their back doors to get into their units, or sitting out there on torn up Barcaloungers shooting pigeons out of the sky with a rifle? I presume (but do not know) that the landlord is legally obligated to provide a certain amount of fire escape provisions per unit, and I doubt there's anything you can do to stop people using a door to their house which is mandated to be there. Now, if they're hanging out there, then maybe that's something different. Are they storing things there? Barbecuing? What, exactly, are they doing?
That said, I think you can do a few things -
1) Get some patio furniture and plants and start decorating the courtyard in your own fashion, and spend time out there reading or whatever. They might choose to avoid confronting you over this if you're out there, and who knows, they might actually be pleasant, but if you're sort of quietly ruling over your courtyardly domain, they might just leave you to it.
2) Forget your dispute; unless they're peeping in your windows, setting off model rockets, or building garbage-can bongs back there, set up some curtains or get some big plants to maintain your privacy. Perhaps life is too short to go through life being bothered by other people's behavior beyond your direct control?
3) Ask the landlord to drop them a letter or something, reiterating what was stated in the e-mail.
posted by mdonley at 11:56 PM on June 8, 2007
That said, I think you can do a few things -
1) Get some patio furniture and plants and start decorating the courtyard in your own fashion, and spend time out there reading or whatever. They might choose to avoid confronting you over this if you're out there, and who knows, they might actually be pleasant, but if you're sort of quietly ruling over your courtyardly domain, they might just leave you to it.
2) Forget your dispute; unless they're peeping in your windows, setting off model rockets, or building garbage-can bongs back there, set up some curtains or get some big plants to maintain your privacy. Perhaps life is too short to go through life being bothered by other people's behavior beyond your direct control?
3) Ask the landlord to drop them a letter or something, reiterating what was stated in the e-mail.
posted by mdonley at 11:56 PM on June 8, 2007
If the size of your courtyard permits (it sounds like it might not, if their door really does open onto your space), maybe you could get some privacy screens, potted plants or even lattice+climbing vines to delineate the space and give you a more of the privacy you seek without actually building a fence. It sounds as if the layout of the property is your enemy here, not really the neighbors. Being civil and working around the constraints must be the best option short of moving to a more suitable location.
posted by maniactown at 12:10 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by maniactown at 12:10 AM on June 9, 2007
Adding to mdonley's suggestion, if you put a park bench and some potplants such that while not an asshole / passive-aggressive blocking of their exit, does alter their access such that egress through that door requires a more inconvenient round-about route through the courtyard - more time and effort - then that might be sufficient disincentive to using the courtyard unless they feel it necessary.
This is not a great suggestion, and only something to be done after you've made it clear to them in person that their access through your courtyard is for emergency only. If the courtyard becomes a bone of contention, it won't work as a disincentive- they'll take the path just to stick it to you, but if it's clear that you, in good faith, simply had no reason to compromise your landscaping convenience for an egress they're not supposed to use, then sometimes a path that is awkward to manouver is all it takes for an alternative route to become the habitual norm.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:14 AM on June 9, 2007
This is not a great suggestion, and only something to be done after you've made it clear to them in person that their access through your courtyard is for emergency only. If the courtyard becomes a bone of contention, it won't work as a disincentive- they'll take the path just to stick it to you, but if it's clear that you, in good faith, simply had no reason to compromise your landscaping convenience for an egress they're not supposed to use, then sometimes a path that is awkward to manouver is all it takes for an alternative route to become the habitual norm.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:14 AM on June 9, 2007
Actually, some new patio furniture could be a good cover-reason to bring up the issue with them in person. Knock on the door, be friendly, and give them a neighbourly heads-up that you've ordered some furniture for your courtyard, and the way you're planning to arrange it is going to clash with their casual use of the emergency door. You'll make sure that it still possible to use the exit in an emergency, but once the furniture arrives, they should stop using your courtyard casually.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:22 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by -harlequin- at 12:22 AM on June 9, 2007
Also - if you've got a good landlord, it's not a big deal to get the courtyard made explicit in your lease. Especially if/when the landlord wishes to make a change (increment the rent, for example) or brings up any other paperwork for that matter.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:26 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by -harlequin- at 12:26 AM on June 9, 2007
Adding furniture may result in the neighbors thinking "Cool! New furniture!" and making themselves even more at home.
I would ask the landlord to "remind" them of the set-up. You are paying for the courtyard, they are not.
Even if the landlord tells them, you may find yourself having to deal directly with them. Like you, I don't like to upset or anger anyone more than necessary. But you can diplomatically address it in a manner that is not "Get off my lawn!!!!!" style. Tell them that part of the reason you rented the place, and the reason you are paying what you are (which is none of their business), is for exclusive use of the courtyard and it's nothing personal against them. Hopefully they are not jerks.
Keep in mind, we always want to tell people upsetting things, without them getting upset. It doesn't usually work that way. Let them be upset, as long as they don't take it out on you.
posted by The Deej at 12:45 AM on June 9, 2007
I would ask the landlord to "remind" them of the set-up. You are paying for the courtyard, they are not.
Even if the landlord tells them, you may find yourself having to deal directly with them. Like you, I don't like to upset or anger anyone more than necessary. But you can diplomatically address it in a manner that is not "Get off my lawn!!!!!" style. Tell them that part of the reason you rented the place, and the reason you are paying what you are (which is none of their business), is for exclusive use of the courtyard and it's nothing personal against them. Hopefully they are not jerks.
Keep in mind, we always want to tell people upsetting things, without them getting upset. It doesn't usually work that way. Let them be upset, as long as they don't take it out on you.
posted by The Deej at 12:45 AM on June 9, 2007
You say they've seen the email but you dont say that you've asked them not to use the courtyard.
Maybe if you just politely explained the situation and asked them not to use the courtyard the problem might go away.
You also dont say how they're using the courtyard. If they're just passing through to get to their unit or using their backdoor they're probably going to think you're being totally anal if you kick up a fuss about it being your courtyard.
You say you want the courtyard to be exclusively yours because of privacy - are the units not all identical? If the courtyard offers little privacy to your living space, is this not the same for all units, not just yours?
How to approach this very much depends on how they're using the space (ie just walking through or actively using the space as their own) and what happens if you just ask them nicely to stop.
posted by missmagenta at 3:21 AM on June 9, 2007
Maybe if you just politely explained the situation and asked them not to use the courtyard the problem might go away.
You also dont say how they're using the courtyard. If they're just passing through to get to their unit or using their backdoor they're probably going to think you're being totally anal if you kick up a fuss about it being your courtyard.
You say you want the courtyard to be exclusively yours because of privacy - are the units not all identical? If the courtyard offers little privacy to your living space, is this not the same for all units, not just yours?
How to approach this very much depends on how they're using the space (ie just walking through or actively using the space as their own) and what happens if you just ask them nicely to stop.
posted by missmagenta at 3:21 AM on June 9, 2007
Geography is destiny. I don't think you can win this one.
posted by LarryC at 5:20 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by LarryC at 5:20 AM on June 9, 2007
When you speak to your neighbors, reminding them that the landlord has made it clear it's entirely your courtyard, mention to them that you're paying significantly more rent than they are because of the exclusive courtyard and they are, in effect, stealing what you paid for. And, nothing personal, but you were paying for a view of an empty courtyard. Then offer to sublet or go-halfsies on the rent of the courtyard and quote them whatever price makes your stress go away.
Although if "using" is just walking through, you might just have to suck it up.
posted by Martin E. at 6:21 AM on June 9, 2007
Although if "using" is just walking through, you might just have to suck it up.
posted by Martin E. at 6:21 AM on June 9, 2007
I like harlequin's advice.
I had this problem in my last apartment; as the sole ground floor tenant, the landlord told me that the backyard was mine. I basically made sure the other tenants knew that they were welcome to use it, but I vigorously decorated it and gardened in it and staked an obvious claim. Ultimately they didn't go down there very often, but when they did I felt pride in having turned an unusable space into one that people could enjoy-- and that they knew that, and treated it respectfully.
However, if that's not what you want, as confrontational as it sounds, you need to tell the new tenants WHILE they are new. There really is nothing in the world wrong with saying something along the lines of:
"You just moved in so you might not know this, but the courtyard is part of my rental. I don't mind seeing people enjoy the space from time to time, but I just wanted to let you know so that soon when I decorate and take over the space, I don't seem like an asshole."
Most likely they will be surprised and say they had no idea, that they just assumed it was shared space. At which point you can just keep smiling and tell them that actually, your rent is higher than it ought to have been because of the courtyard, and that it was a tough decision as to whether to choose this place or not because of it, but that you decided it would be worthwhile to have an outdoor space of your own.
I mean really, conversations along these lines really can happen naturally, if these are reasonable people they won't be bent out of shape (except for maybe with their landlord, for using the courtyard to lead them on).
Bonus points if you make them cookies or something: I made you folks these to welcome you-- and in case you were sore about my hogging the courtyard. Ha ha.
posted by hermitosis at 6:46 AM on June 9, 2007
I had this problem in my last apartment; as the sole ground floor tenant, the landlord told me that the backyard was mine. I basically made sure the other tenants knew that they were welcome to use it, but I vigorously decorated it and gardened in it and staked an obvious claim. Ultimately they didn't go down there very often, but when they did I felt pride in having turned an unusable space into one that people could enjoy-- and that they knew that, and treated it respectfully.
However, if that's not what you want, as confrontational as it sounds, you need to tell the new tenants WHILE they are new. There really is nothing in the world wrong with saying something along the lines of:
"You just moved in so you might not know this, but the courtyard is part of my rental. I don't mind seeing people enjoy the space from time to time, but I just wanted to let you know so that soon when I decorate and take over the space, I don't seem like an asshole."
Most likely they will be surprised and say they had no idea, that they just assumed it was shared space. At which point you can just keep smiling and tell them that actually, your rent is higher than it ought to have been because of the courtyard, and that it was a tough decision as to whether to choose this place or not because of it, but that you decided it would be worthwhile to have an outdoor space of your own.
I mean really, conversations along these lines really can happen naturally, if these are reasonable people they won't be bent out of shape (except for maybe with their landlord, for using the courtyard to lead them on).
Bonus points if you make them cookies or something: I made you folks these to welcome you-- and in case you were sore about my hogging the courtyard. Ha ha.
posted by hermitosis at 6:46 AM on June 9, 2007
We were told verbally before leasing the apartment that the courtyard would be exclusively ours, and not shared with the other units. This was significant to us, as there is very little privacy between the courtyard and our living space. This is not, however, explicit in our lease (I know -- we screwed up here).
You also screwed up when they showed you the place, you noticed a door and a staircase leading into the courtyard, and thought it could somehow be exclusively yours.
In NYC we don't have so many courtyards, but we do have roofs, which are generally nice to go hang out on.
Some are set up as common space for everyone in the building. Others are are off limits to tenants, which practically also means that they are common space for everyone in the building, and people will only yell at you for being there if your noise bothers them. The average landlord's efforts to keep people off are generally rejected - if they put a "Fire Exit Only - Alarm Will Sound If Door Is Opened" someone will either pick the lock, break the alarm, or just set it off (hopefully during the day when people hopefully aren't around trying to sleep) and let the battery die or the super get frustrated and shut off the alarm. If they put a camera it will get deactivated, not like the landlord is going to give enough of a shit to review any footage.
So if some landlord tried to sell me a place with a "private roof deck," I would not go into that with any expectation of a private roof deck unless my apartment was physically the only one that had access.
Don't expect your landlord to take effective measures to keep these people out. You don't become a landlord because want to do hard work and a good job, you become a landlord because you want to do the bare minimum or pay a management company to do the bare minimum, sit on your ass, and cash checks.
Work it out with your neighbors to share the space. Put up some privacy-increasing barriers, maybe, and say "Hey, can you guys hang out in this big part of the courtyard that's separated from our windows by the barriers, rather than this little part that's right outside our windows?"
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:43 AM on June 9, 2007
You also screwed up when they showed you the place, you noticed a door and a staircase leading into the courtyard, and thought it could somehow be exclusively yours.
In NYC we don't have so many courtyards, but we do have roofs, which are generally nice to go hang out on.
Some are set up as common space for everyone in the building. Others are are off limits to tenants, which practically also means that they are common space for everyone in the building, and people will only yell at you for being there if your noise bothers them. The average landlord's efforts to keep people off are generally rejected - if they put a "Fire Exit Only - Alarm Will Sound If Door Is Opened" someone will either pick the lock, break the alarm, or just set it off (hopefully during the day when people hopefully aren't around trying to sleep) and let the battery die or the super get frustrated and shut off the alarm. If they put a camera it will get deactivated, not like the landlord is going to give enough of a shit to review any footage.
So if some landlord tried to sell me a place with a "private roof deck," I would not go into that with any expectation of a private roof deck unless my apartment was physically the only one that had access.
Don't expect your landlord to take effective measures to keep these people out. You don't become a landlord because want to do hard work and a good job, you become a landlord because you want to do the bare minimum or pay a management company to do the bare minimum, sit on your ass, and cash checks.
Work it out with your neighbors to share the space. Put up some privacy-increasing barriers, maybe, and say "Hey, can you guys hang out in this big part of the courtyard that's separated from our windows by the barriers, rather than this little part that's right outside our windows?"
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:43 AM on June 9, 2007
In NYC we don't have so many courtyards
I should have said we do have courtyards, but I've never seen one where anyone even tried to restrict access to them.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:50 AM on June 9, 2007
I should have said we do have courtyards, but I've never seen one where anyone even tried to restrict access to them.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:50 AM on June 9, 2007
can you borrow a friend's rottweiler and tether it in the courtyard for awhile? how about putting an apiary there?
other than that, i'd turn it back on the landlord. "look mister landlord, you told me i had exclusive access and this turned out not to be true, so either drop the rent x amount, or make them stay out of my courtyard."
posted by bruce at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2007
other than that, i'd turn it back on the landlord. "look mister landlord, you told me i had exclusive access and this turned out not to be true, so either drop the rent x amount, or make them stay out of my courtyard."
posted by bruce at 7:57 AM on June 9, 2007
Response by poster: Wow, some good thoughts, and some good questions. Y'all are wicked smaht!
We had another conversation with the neighbors, and I think things will work out. In case anybody is curious, the solution seems to have been to talk to the wife instead of the husband...
posted by lucky mollusk at 8:15 AM on June 9, 2007
We had another conversation with the neighbors, and I think things will work out. In case anybody is curious, the solution seems to have been to talk to the wife instead of the husband...
posted by lucky mollusk at 8:15 AM on June 9, 2007
Possibly add "if you ever want to use it, just let me know ahead of time" to what hermitosis said. Unless they're irritating to begin with, that alone will probably cut down on the instances of looking out your window and being surprised by a bunch of people hanging out.
posted by onedarkride at 9:10 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by onedarkride at 9:10 AM on June 9, 2007
Walk around naked as much as possible in the courtyard.
posted by bigmusic at 11:27 AM on June 9, 2007
posted by bigmusic at 11:27 AM on June 9, 2007
I ALWAYS try to talk to the wife instead of the husband.
Heh. heh heh. Heh.
posted by The Deej at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2007
Heh. heh heh. Heh.
posted by The Deej at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2007
Your neighbors have already made it clear that they will ignore your wishes with respect to use of the courtyard.
This is not an issue big enough to risk having angry neighbors, and it's probably not worth being angry neighbors about, either. I don't believe there's any change that you can make to the current situation to make it better for you than it already is; better just to let it go.
Ah, I see you already made contact with them a second time, and because the wife was more civil, you believe the problem is solved. Good luck with your pissed-off neighbors; you're going to need it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:19 PM on June 10, 2007
This is not an issue big enough to risk having angry neighbors, and it's probably not worth being angry neighbors about, either. I don't believe there's any change that you can make to the current situation to make it better for you than it already is; better just to let it go.
Ah, I see you already made contact with them a second time, and because the wife was more civil, you believe the problem is solved. Good luck with your pissed-off neighbors; you're going to need it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:19 PM on June 10, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by rolypolyman at 11:41 PM on June 8, 2007