I screwed up. She screwed up. Does it matter anymore?
April 7, 2007 8:37 AM Subscribe
Should I contact my friend or not? Long explanation inside.
Long history here to give people more to work with:
I had a falling out with a childhood friend several years ago. But before that, she was pretty much the person I felt closest to in the world, to the point where I thought of her as a soulmate. Somehow I always had this distinct feeling (that I've never felt with any other person that I've ever met) that she understood me and saw the world the same way, with the same kinds of dreams, though we're completely unlike each other. She's the kind of person who takes dreams (any dreams) seriously, and she doesn't settle for any cop-out from its pursuit--she encourages and pushes. I've often felt comforted in her presence, even when we're just yakking or watching a movie. I admired her a lot and looked up to her. And I've often felt a similar regard from her, just in the way she talked to me. We have totally different personalities--she's brash, constantly needs stimulation, a bit coarse, pushy, worldly, daring. I'm much more reserved, very sensitive, and somewhat naive. It had always scared me how much I love her. I'm definitely not a lesbian.
We both went to the same university, after graduating from high school as highly-driven kids. I got into a heap of a mess involving career, struggles with my studies, emotional issues, family issues, attempts to grow out of everyone else's shadows and be independent--you name it, it all happened in a short span of time. She, on the other hand, got herself quickly together and pursued her dream single-mindedly. She's now very successful in her field, jobs pouring in, mixes regularly with some of the top people in her industry, and has basically achieved many of the dreams she had mentioned (or even not mentioned, but I sort of understood) to me.
She stopped all contact with me around the time I told her I was failing my program. Even before that she had been making judgemental remarks about me--she had always been opinionated and judgemental about everything, but she had never been so openly critical towards me before, especially out in public and when we were with other friends. I was at the point where I could barely talk about the pain I was feeling inside just to hold my life together (I was seeing a therapist by that point), and anyway, I don't think she ever understood just how bad things had become for me, because she doesn't seem to get depression or despair (just based on offhand comments). Could be we were focused on different things and lost touch. I think she tried though. She's the get-go, efficient type who decides on something and just does it. I brood. Anyway, I kind of lost it after. I did contact her for an explanation later, and after several avoidances, she told me that she wants people who inspire her, she just couldn't talk to me anymore and that she has other friends, and she sounded exasperated. Six months passed, she emailed me on my birthday with a cheery birthday greeting. I just replied with a simple thanks. She never contacted me after that, and I didn't either. It might have to do with the fact that I changed my email a few months later.
Since then I've just been working on myself. To some degree I've succeeded--I switched majors, graduated in that major, and I'm a little more stable and clear-eyed than I was during most of my university years. But I'm finding that I miss her and wanting to talk to her again. I must be crazy, right? Friends would say so (and they don't understand why I would hurt so much over her). She had really hurt me with her comments and actions. I never thought it was possible to feel that much pain. Oh, and she's never been much for tolerating failure too. I'm currently (unsuccessfully) looking for a job, and yes I am ashamed and angry at myself when I compare the two of us and where we are and how I've totally screwed up my life thus far.
The thing is, maybe because I was so screwed up during those years, well, I can't figure out whether she changed because of her sudden success (new crowd; in with the new, out with the old), or whether it was a reaction to my behaviour. I've asked friends to tell me just how I was acting during those years, and they won't tell me--which makes me think that it must have been pretty bad.
Basically, should I contact her or not? I might be leaving the country later on this year, and I think she might be as well, so this is sort of the last chance in a long, long time that I can sit down face to face with her. I don't even know what I want to say yet--maybe I want to tie up a few loose ends in my life before taking off--we're probably really different now. Mostly I just miss her. But I'm also really concerned that I'm trying to re-create a past that wasn't really real (one of my problems had been not being able to see people for who they really are, and she's not exempt from that); also, getting in contact with her might reopen some wounds. I'm not completely well yet emotionally, and I'm definitely far from the sunny and focused dreamer she knew.
As I said, friends and family would probably think I'm completely crazy, but even during my outpourings I knew the fault doesn't lie completely with her here. And she did contact me on my birthday, although more than a year has passed since that happened and I'm not sure what she thinks now. Is this just an unhealthy obsession continued? Should I contact her or just let this go?
Sorry for the length. Email is: askmefriend@hotmail.com
Long history here to give people more to work with:
I had a falling out with a childhood friend several years ago. But before that, she was pretty much the person I felt closest to in the world, to the point where I thought of her as a soulmate. Somehow I always had this distinct feeling (that I've never felt with any other person that I've ever met) that she understood me and saw the world the same way, with the same kinds of dreams, though we're completely unlike each other. She's the kind of person who takes dreams (any dreams) seriously, and she doesn't settle for any cop-out from its pursuit--she encourages and pushes. I've often felt comforted in her presence, even when we're just yakking or watching a movie. I admired her a lot and looked up to her. And I've often felt a similar regard from her, just in the way she talked to me. We have totally different personalities--she's brash, constantly needs stimulation, a bit coarse, pushy, worldly, daring. I'm much more reserved, very sensitive, and somewhat naive. It had always scared me how much I love her. I'm definitely not a lesbian.
We both went to the same university, after graduating from high school as highly-driven kids. I got into a heap of a mess involving career, struggles with my studies, emotional issues, family issues, attempts to grow out of everyone else's shadows and be independent--you name it, it all happened in a short span of time. She, on the other hand, got herself quickly together and pursued her dream single-mindedly. She's now very successful in her field, jobs pouring in, mixes regularly with some of the top people in her industry, and has basically achieved many of the dreams she had mentioned (or even not mentioned, but I sort of understood) to me.
She stopped all contact with me around the time I told her I was failing my program. Even before that she had been making judgemental remarks about me--she had always been opinionated and judgemental about everything, but she had never been so openly critical towards me before, especially out in public and when we were with other friends. I was at the point where I could barely talk about the pain I was feeling inside just to hold my life together (I was seeing a therapist by that point), and anyway, I don't think she ever understood just how bad things had become for me, because she doesn't seem to get depression or despair (just based on offhand comments). Could be we were focused on different things and lost touch. I think she tried though. She's the get-go, efficient type who decides on something and just does it. I brood. Anyway, I kind of lost it after. I did contact her for an explanation later, and after several avoidances, she told me that she wants people who inspire her, she just couldn't talk to me anymore and that she has other friends, and she sounded exasperated. Six months passed, she emailed me on my birthday with a cheery birthday greeting. I just replied with a simple thanks. She never contacted me after that, and I didn't either. It might have to do with the fact that I changed my email a few months later.
Since then I've just been working on myself. To some degree I've succeeded--I switched majors, graduated in that major, and I'm a little more stable and clear-eyed than I was during most of my university years. But I'm finding that I miss her and wanting to talk to her again. I must be crazy, right? Friends would say so (and they don't understand why I would hurt so much over her). She had really hurt me with her comments and actions. I never thought it was possible to feel that much pain. Oh, and she's never been much for tolerating failure too. I'm currently (unsuccessfully) looking for a job, and yes I am ashamed and angry at myself when I compare the two of us and where we are and how I've totally screwed up my life thus far.
The thing is, maybe because I was so screwed up during those years, well, I can't figure out whether she changed because of her sudden success (new crowd; in with the new, out with the old), or whether it was a reaction to my behaviour. I've asked friends to tell me just how I was acting during those years, and they won't tell me--which makes me think that it must have been pretty bad.
Basically, should I contact her or not? I might be leaving the country later on this year, and I think she might be as well, so this is sort of the last chance in a long, long time that I can sit down face to face with her. I don't even know what I want to say yet--maybe I want to tie up a few loose ends in my life before taking off--we're probably really different now. Mostly I just miss her. But I'm also really concerned that I'm trying to re-create a past that wasn't really real (one of my problems had been not being able to see people for who they really are, and she's not exempt from that); also, getting in contact with her might reopen some wounds. I'm not completely well yet emotionally, and I'm definitely far from the sunny and focused dreamer she knew.
As I said, friends and family would probably think I'm completely crazy, but even during my outpourings I knew the fault doesn't lie completely with her here. And she did contact me on my birthday, although more than a year has passed since that happened and I'm not sure what she thinks now. Is this just an unhealthy obsession continued? Should I contact her or just let this go?
Sorry for the length. Email is: askmefriend@hotmail.com
It's unfortunate - but sometimes friendships just run their course. Especially when they begin when we are younger. It is hard to come to terms with this - and what makes it harder is when people don't let go properly, and end up leaving unanswered questions.
A friendship ending always hurts. And you won't always get all the answers. Most people I know have had a friendship end in an unpleasant way - and never find out what happened. It's not right - but it's pretty common.
I would not say you are crazy - but I don't think contacting her now would be the best thing for you. You should focus more on yourself - and you should definitely stop comparing yourself to her. Everyone is different and people need to walk their own path. Sometimes it takes longer to get where you want. That's ok. It doesn't matter where she is in relation to you - what matters is how you feel about your self, and what your situation is.
posted by gomichild at 9:08 AM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
A friendship ending always hurts. And you won't always get all the answers. Most people I know have had a friendship end in an unpleasant way - and never find out what happened. It's not right - but it's pretty common.
I would not say you are crazy - but I don't think contacting her now would be the best thing for you. You should focus more on yourself - and you should definitely stop comparing yourself to her. Everyone is different and people need to walk their own path. Sometimes it takes longer to get where you want. That's ok. It doesn't matter where she is in relation to you - what matters is how you feel about your self, and what your situation is.
posted by gomichild at 9:08 AM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
Write it all down, everything you want to say to her, and sit on it for a week. I'm guessing you will not want to contact her after you do this.
You say she inspired you, etc., but it sounds like she dropped you like a rock when you really needed a friend, and moreover just makes you feel like a failure and always has (though more subtly in the past). Maybe you think that if you could win back her friendship, it would validate you in some way? You don't need it. You're OK. You want real emotional connections with people willing to be as vulnerable with you as you are with them -- the ability to make these connections is something you should be proud of, not feel bad about! Some people spend their whole lives trying to learn it! -- and that is not ever going to quite happen with this girl.
Constantly auditioning for a job that will always be ju-u-ust beyond your reach is no way to live your life.
posted by Methylviolet at 9:13 AM on April 7, 2007 [4 favorites]
You say she inspired you, etc., but it sounds like she dropped you like a rock when you really needed a friend, and moreover just makes you feel like a failure and always has (though more subtly in the past). Maybe you think that if you could win back her friendship, it would validate you in some way? You don't need it. You're OK. You want real emotional connections with people willing to be as vulnerable with you as you are with them -- the ability to make these connections is something you should be proud of, not feel bad about! Some people spend their whole lives trying to learn it! -- and that is not ever going to quite happen with this girl.
Constantly auditioning for a job that will always be ju-u-ust beyond your reach is no way to live your life.
posted by Methylviolet at 9:13 AM on April 7, 2007 [4 favorites]
You may not be a lesbian, but I'd wager that you are in love with her. Read your first paragraph again: that's love. Think about how much her withdrawal hurt you: that's love, too. You've got so much riding on your relationship with this one person that you are obsessed: that's love, too.
I suggest you take this to a counselor or therapist and talk about what this woman means to you, before you contact her again. Good luck.
posted by Carol Anne at 9:14 AM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
I suggest you take this to a counselor or therapist and talk about what this woman means to you, before you contact her again. Good luck.
posted by Carol Anne at 9:14 AM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
[F]riends and family would probably think I'm completely crazy...
This, I think, is something you should pay very close attention to. Random people on a message board are not going to have as good of an idea of the situation as those who know you & your friend the best.
That said, I don't think it would be a bad thing for you & she to meet for coffee once or twice a year “for old times' sake.” Just don't expect things to magically go back to the way they were because you've re-established contact. It's an unfortunate fact of life that people change & grow apart; don't keep longing for a reset button on your friendship, because you're not going to find it.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2007
This, I think, is something you should pay very close attention to. Random people on a message board are not going to have as good of an idea of the situation as those who know you & your friend the best.
That said, I don't think it would be a bad thing for you & she to meet for coffee once or twice a year “for old times' sake.” Just don't expect things to magically go back to the way they were because you've re-established contact. It's an unfortunate fact of life that people change & grow apart; don't keep longing for a reset button on your friendship, because you're not going to find it.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2007
What do you want to achieve by contacting her? From her behaviour towards you it seems unlikely that she would wish to resume a friendship or even occasional contact. Won't that rejection hurt you even more? Find new friends - who appreciate you for who you are and not for who they thought you were........
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2007
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:30 AM on April 7, 2007
But I'm also really concerned that I'm trying to re-create a past that wasn't really real
You aren't trying to re-create something that wasn't really real, you're trying to get in touch with something that was real, that you've lost and, sadly, is now in the past.
I am usually loathe to pass judgment on people based on a few paragraphs of distinction, but I'll toss out an idea just to see if it resonates with you. The basis of your friendship was shared dreams and the idealism of youth. Your friend has achieved those dreams; you have not. The shared basis of your friendship is now gone. Some friendships can change and adjust, and that's wonderful; some can't, and that's painful and sad.
For whatever reason, your friend can't handle the fact that you haven't achieved your ambitions. Could be that she finds it too painful or scary to confront this kind of failure. Could be that she's so ambitious that she doesn't want to be 'dragged down' by a friend in need. Could be that she is in denial about the fact that life isn't all happiness and success, and doesn't believe that true friends stand by one another when the going is bad as well as good (the birthday card seems to indicate this). Could be that she's just a bitch. I don't know, but at this juncture it hardly matters.
IMHO, you have to let go of this. Ask yourself: what, exactly, do you hope to accomplish by contacting her again? It sounds like you're trying to recover something that is gone. It might work, but it probably won't, and either way it will cost you a lot of mental energy that could clearly be put to better use in getting on with your own life.
posted by googly at 9:31 AM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
You aren't trying to re-create something that wasn't really real, you're trying to get in touch with something that was real, that you've lost and, sadly, is now in the past.
I am usually loathe to pass judgment on people based on a few paragraphs of distinction, but I'll toss out an idea just to see if it resonates with you. The basis of your friendship was shared dreams and the idealism of youth. Your friend has achieved those dreams; you have not. The shared basis of your friendship is now gone. Some friendships can change and adjust, and that's wonderful; some can't, and that's painful and sad.
For whatever reason, your friend can't handle the fact that you haven't achieved your ambitions. Could be that she finds it too painful or scary to confront this kind of failure. Could be that she's so ambitious that she doesn't want to be 'dragged down' by a friend in need. Could be that she is in denial about the fact that life isn't all happiness and success, and doesn't believe that true friends stand by one another when the going is bad as well as good (the birthday card seems to indicate this). Could be that she's just a bitch. I don't know, but at this juncture it hardly matters.
IMHO, you have to let go of this. Ask yourself: what, exactly, do you hope to accomplish by contacting her again? It sounds like you're trying to recover something that is gone. It might work, but it probably won't, and either way it will cost you a lot of mental energy that could clearly be put to better use in getting on with your own life.
posted by googly at 9:31 AM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
No, don't.
It will make you feel worse and you do not need that. She has already proved that she is lacking in the compassion department and/or you two were not as close as you thought.
Years from now-like ten or twenty-maybe you can track her down and say hi. By then both of you will have more perspective-but I suspect by then you will no longer feel the need.
posted by konolia at 9:32 AM on April 7, 2007
It will make you feel worse and you do not need that. She has already proved that she is lacking in the compassion department and/or you two were not as close as you thought.
Years from now-like ten or twenty-maybe you can track her down and say hi. By then both of you will have more perspective-but I suspect by then you will no longer feel the need.
posted by konolia at 9:32 AM on April 7, 2007
what do you have to lose by contacting her? if she doesn't write back, nothing has really changed -- and given that she'd tried to contact you on your last birthday, this seems unlikely.
you have the possibility of rekindling a great friendship, and all you have to do is write an email saying "hey, haven't heard from you in a while, would love to hear what you are up to", and take it from there.
from an outsider's perspective, to be honest this seems like a bit of a no-brainer.
posted by modernnomad at 9:35 AM on April 7, 2007
you have the possibility of rekindling a great friendship, and all you have to do is write an email saying "hey, haven't heard from you in a while, would love to hear what you are up to", and take it from there.
from an outsider's perspective, to be honest this seems like a bit of a no-brainer.
posted by modernnomad at 9:35 AM on April 7, 2007
I think you both went through a period where you probably weren't acting like the nicest people in the world--you being depressed and all that entails, and her being judgemental and all that entails. As long as you feel strong enough to get past it if she's still in that judgemental place, give both of yourselves another chance to reconnect and see what happens.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:57 AM on April 7, 2007
posted by jacquilynne at 9:57 AM on April 7, 2007
I'm the male equivalent of your friend, though not quite so successful; one of my friends (from my perspective) behaves in exactly the same way that you do. I also encourage and challenge this friend as much as possible -- though I've also stopped doing that, because I realized, after some time, that it was impossible to have anything but a negative effect. (I was encouraging toward uncertain success; in this person's mind, it was always already a failure).
What made her leave you? It was your behavior, and her new friends, combined.
Brash, efficient, positive, (rude) smart people can only support so much self-pity and perceived self-ineffectiveness. For people with my kind of self-view, if you don't feel smart enough or understand something, you study. If you don't feel strong enough, you start working out. If you don't feel connected enough, you contact people. For you, from your description it sounds like all three of those hypotheticals would have lead to... more unhappiness and brooding instead of an opportunity for growth. It's hard for me to understand you, because I've felt like I've had a hand in most of my successes, however false that may be. I never feel helpless, though I may feel like I need help. I often say exactly what I feel about what other people are doing, and this often comes off as rude or is misunderstood. I do this out of an expectation that they will handle me the same way, though I've come to realize that is a mistake.
Furthermore, when you compare your own life to hers, you make it incredibly difficult for her to relate. It is unfair. She probably wanted to share her successes with you over and over again -- and was probably met with negativity ("I could never do that")... It makes it incredibly hard to relate things that are really worth sharing -- happiness and satisfaction.
Another property of a person with my sort of self-view is that success, understanding, and constant change are my first priorities. I let other parts of my life suffer because I so strongly prioritize these things, including interpersonal relations, especially with people who seem stuck. You've got to stand on your own before you can hold somebody's hand without pulling them down.
Instead, your friend, as a result of her hard work, finds herself surrounded by people who are working hard, doing interesting things, and constantly changing. It's not hard to see why that's appealing and engaging -- and challenging to her. The main challenge you presented was for her to understand your helpless feelings at all.
To finally get around to answering your question, yes, you should contact her, but only if you can accept that she might not have many, if any, feelings about the time that you are most concerned about. It is very likely that she was tied up in other things while you were suffering. She probably didn't notice or understand the depth of your pain. Hearing about it now, she probably wouldn't feel very guilty, because it was in the past and you seem to be doing better. If you can accept that she might not care about then (and in fact she may only care about the you that exists right now)... then go for it. Otherwise, move on.
posted by fake at 10:17 AM on April 7, 2007 [10 favorites]
What made her leave you? It was your behavior, and her new friends, combined.
Brash, efficient, positive, (rude) smart people can only support so much self-pity and perceived self-ineffectiveness. For people with my kind of self-view, if you don't feel smart enough or understand something, you study. If you don't feel strong enough, you start working out. If you don't feel connected enough, you contact people. For you, from your description it sounds like all three of those hypotheticals would have lead to... more unhappiness and brooding instead of an opportunity for growth. It's hard for me to understand you, because I've felt like I've had a hand in most of my successes, however false that may be. I never feel helpless, though I may feel like I need help. I often say exactly what I feel about what other people are doing, and this often comes off as rude or is misunderstood. I do this out of an expectation that they will handle me the same way, though I've come to realize that is a mistake.
Furthermore, when you compare your own life to hers, you make it incredibly difficult for her to relate. It is unfair. She probably wanted to share her successes with you over and over again -- and was probably met with negativity ("I could never do that")... It makes it incredibly hard to relate things that are really worth sharing -- happiness and satisfaction.
Another property of a person with my sort of self-view is that success, understanding, and constant change are my first priorities. I let other parts of my life suffer because I so strongly prioritize these things, including interpersonal relations, especially with people who seem stuck. You've got to stand on your own before you can hold somebody's hand without pulling them down.
Instead, your friend, as a result of her hard work, finds herself surrounded by people who are working hard, doing interesting things, and constantly changing. It's not hard to see why that's appealing and engaging -- and challenging to her. The main challenge you presented was for her to understand your helpless feelings at all.
To finally get around to answering your question, yes, you should contact her, but only if you can accept that she might not have many, if any, feelings about the time that you are most concerned about. It is very likely that she was tied up in other things while you were suffering. She probably didn't notice or understand the depth of your pain. Hearing about it now, she probably wouldn't feel very guilty, because it was in the past and you seem to be doing better. If you can accept that she might not care about then (and in fact she may only care about the you that exists right now)... then go for it. Otherwise, move on.
posted by fake at 10:17 AM on April 7, 2007 [10 favorites]
Hm. I'm glad fake posted that answer. Take this as kind of a complement to that post.
I don't think it matters whether you contact this friend; what I think is important is that you yourself personally learn something from this experience in your life, so that it is meaningful (rather than just hurtful) whether or not you ever speak to her again. Look over your post again:
But before that, she was pretty much the person I felt closest to in the world, to the point where I thought of her as a soulmate. Somehow I always had this distinct feeling [about certain emotions and perceptions on her part].... she's brash, constantly needs stimulation...
From an outsider's perspective, it's hard not to notice who's the subject and who's the object in most of those sentences. This is all about your emotions, not so much about a mutual connection. Which is not to say I think you're totally selfish and it was all one-sided; I think there was a definite symbiosis going on -- she craved attention and the way you doted on her because of these special feelings you were having probably really did something for her, too. But it was not the same something; nothing about your friendship sounds really mutual. For a time, you each had something to offer the other, but it was a certain fixed bargain; when you hit a rough patch and needed a bit of that doting attention to be paid the other way, she was not up to the task.
It sounds like you're a giver -- you live through the attention you pay and the help you give to others. While a lot of people think of this as an altruistic personality trait, I think it also has a very self-oriented side: you understand and relate to other people through the emotions you have towards them, through the way they make you feel. And I think an important lesson to take out of this sort of situation is the ability to really step outside of yourself and, when you become part of an intense emotional entanglement, ask yourself what's really in it for the other person? Learning to really see it from their perspective and understand their motivations will only help you in the long run -- it may be painful to discover that you've befriended a pure narcissist, for example, but it's better to know it up front and decide what you're going to do about it than get hurt later when you're kicked to the curb unexpectedly.
Anyway, it's hard to say from these few paragraphs how well this really describes your situation, but it's something to consider in the future.
posted by rkent at 11:37 AM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
I don't think it matters whether you contact this friend; what I think is important is that you yourself personally learn something from this experience in your life, so that it is meaningful (rather than just hurtful) whether or not you ever speak to her again. Look over your post again:
But before that, she was pretty much the person I felt closest to in the world, to the point where I thought of her as a soulmate. Somehow I always had this distinct feeling [about certain emotions and perceptions on her part].... she's brash, constantly needs stimulation...
From an outsider's perspective, it's hard not to notice who's the subject and who's the object in most of those sentences. This is all about your emotions, not so much about a mutual connection. Which is not to say I think you're totally selfish and it was all one-sided; I think there was a definite symbiosis going on -- she craved attention and the way you doted on her because of these special feelings you were having probably really did something for her, too. But it was not the same something; nothing about your friendship sounds really mutual. For a time, you each had something to offer the other, but it was a certain fixed bargain; when you hit a rough patch and needed a bit of that doting attention to be paid the other way, she was not up to the task.
It sounds like you're a giver -- you live through the attention you pay and the help you give to others. While a lot of people think of this as an altruistic personality trait, I think it also has a very self-oriented side: you understand and relate to other people through the emotions you have towards them, through the way they make you feel. And I think an important lesson to take out of this sort of situation is the ability to really step outside of yourself and, when you become part of an intense emotional entanglement, ask yourself what's really in it for the other person? Learning to really see it from their perspective and understand their motivations will only help you in the long run -- it may be painful to discover that you've befriended a pure narcissist, for example, but it's better to know it up front and decide what you're going to do about it than get hurt later when you're kicked to the curb unexpectedly.
Anyway, it's hard to say from these few paragraphs how well this really describes your situation, but it's something to consider in the future.
posted by rkent at 11:37 AM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
I've found myself in similar situations, and almost always in your position - in fact, I'm finding myself in a similar situation right now with a close friend, so this hits close to home. I do like Methylviolet and koahiatamadl's general school of thought (i.e. find friends who already value you, don't bother getting affirmation from her, etc. etc.). While I understand that one wants to surround one's self with positive people for inspiration, the fact she told you a) she had other friends and avoided you and didn't seem to help you all at a time when you needed support, b) doesn't tolerate failture, c) has said hurtful things without any remorse...well, it doesn't sound particularily mature or helpful and not a heck of a positive role model either.
She might be a dazzling person to be around and even a soulmate, but ask yourself if you deserve a better kind of friend - once who values you as much as you value her. Friendships can be tricky - but they do have to have some level of mutual benefit and admiration going on. It sounds like you valued her, but she didn't value you enough back. I don't know if it's obsession so much as...time to find someone more positive who will be a true friend. Find people who do value you for who you are - not just who you could be - and who will support you in good and bad. It means for me perhaps putting my friendship with my close friend I mentioned earlier on hold; it's sad because I do love this friend, but I also realize life is hard enough and too short on trying to make things work with people who in the end aren't worth the effort I expend on it. You have a bright future - a possible exciting move to a different country. Spend it with folks who care for the whole you.
Anyway, contact me if you want to chat about the topic more, or for moral support. My email is in my profile.
posted by rmm at 12:15 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
She might be a dazzling person to be around and even a soulmate, but ask yourself if you deserve a better kind of friend - once who values you as much as you value her. Friendships can be tricky - but they do have to have some level of mutual benefit and admiration going on. It sounds like you valued her, but she didn't value you enough back. I don't know if it's obsession so much as...time to find someone more positive who will be a true friend. Find people who do value you for who you are - not just who you could be - and who will support you in good and bad. It means for me perhaps putting my friendship with my close friend I mentioned earlier on hold; it's sad because I do love this friend, but I also realize life is hard enough and too short on trying to make things work with people who in the end aren't worth the effort I expend on it. You have a bright future - a possible exciting move to a different country. Spend it with folks who care for the whole you.
Anyway, contact me if you want to chat about the topic more, or for moral support. My email is in my profile.
posted by rmm at 12:15 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
Brash, efficient, positive, (rude) smart people can only support so much self-pity and perceived self-ineffectiveness. For people with my kind of self-view, if you don't feel smart enough or understand something, you study. If you don't feel strong enough, you start working out. If you don't feel connected enough, you contact people. For you, from your description it sounds like all three of those hypotheticals would have lead to... more unhappiness and brooding instead of an opportunity for growth. It's hard for me to understand you, because I've felt like I've had a hand in most of my successes, however false that may be. I never feel helpless, though I may feel like I need help. I often say exactly what I feel about what other people are doing, and this often comes off as rude or is misunderstood. I do this out of an expectation that they will handle me the same way, though I've come to realize that is a mistake.
Wow, the ruthlessness of optimism. If your friend is really like this, then I'd say you're better off hanging out with fellow pessimists and losers. (And I mean "loser" in the best sense of the word.)
posted by footnote at 1:22 PM on April 7, 2007 [3 favorites]
Wow, the ruthlessness of optimism. If your friend is really like this, then I'd say you're better off hanging out with fellow pessimists and losers. (And I mean "loser" in the best sense of the word.)
posted by footnote at 1:22 PM on April 7, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think you should contact her, if only because it seems that you will feel regret if you do not. It might be a painful experience for you, frankly anyone that will abandon you like that does not deserve your friendship. Perhaps seeing her again will help you to recognize similar people in the future, and steer clear. I know you feel love for her, but it is not healthy to be stuck on someone like this, you need to stop idealizing her and get unstuck.
posted by yohko at 2:19 PM on April 7, 2007
posted by yohko at 2:19 PM on April 7, 2007
From your description, it sounds like you were a negative influence on your friend. You may have been looking for love and support in difficult times and your friend was looking for someone who would be on a journey with her - not pulling her down.
I've relied on the old adage "You can't live someone else's life for them" and it seems to apply here. Your friend couldn't make you make the right choices and decided (most likely, correctly) to move on. You can't rely on friends or family to carry the weight of your own issues all the time.
Now, it also seems to be that you have been getting your world back together. If you really have and are no longer looking for an emotional crutch, you may find that you can build a new relationship with your friend that isn't based on any previous dysfunction. My guess is that you may not be ready, though. Just make sure that you aren't reaching for the thing that you feel will complete you when you are feeling scared or worried or stressed. Like someone who is lead by the drink, make sure you aren't just reaching for the bottle because it is the only solace you've known.
posted by qwip at 4:13 PM on April 7, 2007
I've relied on the old adage "You can't live someone else's life for them" and it seems to apply here. Your friend couldn't make you make the right choices and decided (most likely, correctly) to move on. You can't rely on friends or family to carry the weight of your own issues all the time.
Now, it also seems to be that you have been getting your world back together. If you really have and are no longer looking for an emotional crutch, you may find that you can build a new relationship with your friend that isn't based on any previous dysfunction. My guess is that you may not be ready, though. Just make sure that you aren't reaching for the thing that you feel will complete you when you are feeling scared or worried or stressed. Like someone who is lead by the drink, make sure you aren't just reaching for the bottle because it is the only solace you've known.
posted by qwip at 4:13 PM on April 7, 2007
People change sometimes.
She is not the person she was before college.
You two were children.
Sometimes little princesses grow into wicked witches. And vice versa.
She sounds petty and shallow, and not the kind of person you need. It sounds like she became blinded by ambition in college, and at the advice of some other hyper A type personality dropped you during a time of need.
She's an opportunist and a social climber. Wish her the best of luck and say goodbye, because the girl you loved doesn't exist anymore.
Also, you've hardly "ruined your life". If you're recently graduated you're likely in your early 20's. Unless you have a felony conviction you are much too young to have ruined anything.
posted by Ynoxas at 4:17 PM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
She is not the person she was before college.
You two were children.
Sometimes little princesses grow into wicked witches. And vice versa.
She sounds petty and shallow, and not the kind of person you need. It sounds like she became blinded by ambition in college, and at the advice of some other hyper A type personality dropped you during a time of need.
She's an opportunist and a social climber. Wish her the best of luck and say goodbye, because the girl you loved doesn't exist anymore.
Also, you've hardly "ruined your life". If you're recently graduated you're likely in your early 20's. Unless you have a felony conviction you are much too young to have ruined anything.
posted by Ynoxas at 4:17 PM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
Drop her a line to let her know that you were thinking of her. This is what she was doing on your birhthday -- testing the waters.
I'd advise you not to try to revisit past hurts or try to understand why she dropped you, though. You two have both grown up and moved on. Hell, she may not even know why she treated you such back then, and very well may be pretty embarrassed. You should stop beating yourself up and "investigating" your past, too. What do you want your friends to tell you that you don't already know?
Long version short: Don't aim for "CLOSURE."
But if you, as person-you-are-now to say hello to your old friend, with whom you had a long history, but have subsequently grown apart, go ahead.
posted by desuetude at 5:04 PM on April 7, 2007
I'd advise you not to try to revisit past hurts or try to understand why she dropped you, though. You two have both grown up and moved on. Hell, she may not even know why she treated you such back then, and very well may be pretty embarrassed. You should stop beating yourself up and "investigating" your past, too. What do you want your friends to tell you that you don't already know?
Long version short: Don't aim for "CLOSURE."
But if you, as person-you-are-now to say hello to your old friend, with whom you had a long history, but have subsequently grown apart, go ahead.
posted by desuetude at 5:04 PM on April 7, 2007
People change, people grow up, and sometimes they do the opposite. People grow closer, and people grow apart.
Do you need to contact her? If so, don't. That's a big sign that you still have your own stuff to sort out, and using her as a crutch/validation/excuse/whatever won't help that.
Do you want to contact her - to tidy up loose ends, or just to see how she's going (absent of any minor revenge/justification fantasies you may have)? Sure, why not.
"Closure" is a bit of a wank term. And, as someone who really needs to understand why things happen before he can deal with them, I've learnt that you very very rarely get it. You have to make your own peace with yourself; don't expect it from outside. A lesson I wish I'd learned a couple of years earlier than I did...
(Having said all that, I'm male, so I'm not exactly au fait with the dynamics of female-female relationships!)
posted by Pinback at 5:56 PM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
Do you need to contact her? If so, don't. That's a big sign that you still have your own stuff to sort out, and using her as a crutch/validation/excuse/whatever won't help that.
Do you want to contact her - to tidy up loose ends, or just to see how she's going (absent of any minor revenge/justification fantasies you may have)? Sure, why not.
"Closure" is a bit of a wank term. And, as someone who really needs to understand why things happen before he can deal with them, I've learnt that you very very rarely get it. You have to make your own peace with yourself; don't expect it from outside. A lesson I wish I'd learned a couple of years earlier than I did...
(Having said all that, I'm male, so I'm not exactly au fait with the dynamics of female-female relationships!)
posted by Pinback at 5:56 PM on April 7, 2007 [1 favorite]
Within just the past few years, I've been in both the position you were in and the position your friend was in—and today, I identify much more with you.
Here's how it is: Your old friend doesn't sound particularly understanding. And said lack of understanding most likely stems from the fact that she's probably never experienced significant setbacks on her "upward trajectory." In short, she's been very lucky—but, like fake, she probably thinks it was largely, if not all, her own doing. I know—I used to feel the same way.
Was it all her own doing? That's to some extent a question of attribution—of one's perception of control in the situation. How "in control" we feel is influenced by a lot of things, and each individual has a baseline "locus of control" that influences how positively or negatively s/he views the world. That's what people mean when they talk about empowerment—to be empowered is to feel like you're in control of your life and emotions and not subject to the whims of fate/others. Your old friend feels empowered and in control because she's never had that view challenged. You're beginning to feel more empowered, it sounds like, because you've been through a lot and worked through your problems and gained some measure of self-awareness.
So perception, as you've probably found, is important. But as you and I and anyone who's been through some shit knows, sometimes it isn't a matter of perception. Sometimes, things are genuinely beyond our control, and things go horribly wrong, and when they do, we feel a cold fear that those who've never tasted failure and never lived through the wrenching experience of seeing their hopes and dreams shattered (even if only temporarily) often have a difficult time understanding. They, like fake, tend to think rebuilding one's confidence and self-esteem is simply a matter of self-improvement, of vowing to somehow be "better" and then working on it.
These people wrongly assume that the only things worth sharing are positive things—and I find it difficult to find words for just how wrong that is. The sharing of tragedy is equally as necessary as the sharing of joy.
To feel ineffective, to feel helpless, to fall into a hole and have difficulty pulling out of it—these are all incredibly difficult things to deal with. After coming out of my own depression in college, I was that person who pulled away, who didn't want to be "brought down" by a friend I found overly needy—'cause I was too close to it, too afraid of falling back into myself to come to my friend's aid, and at the same time too wrapped up in myself to realize how hurtful it was to deny her that aid. [[chuckles]] Sometimes those who have been there do the most harm, in their haste to "save themselves."
Only recently did I realize how wrong I was to categorize personal lapses, weaknesses, and failures—both my friend's and my own—as something to be shunned and hidden. Because these things will get worked through, with or without the support of loved ones. What makes the difference is whether you're there for them or not. 'Cause to really make progress and work your way out of the hole, you have to want to be helped, and you have to be willing to help yourself—and of course friends can't grant you the will to do that. But the support of friends makes it far less painful.
There's a "circling of the wagons" that takes place when one goes through a personal tragedy, whether it be the death of a loved one, a medical catastrophe, a failure of any kind, etc. The question one asks—and it's a selfish one, to be sure, but it's a necessary one—is, "Who's with me?" Who can I rely on? Who will stand with me in the face of all this? Overcoming adversity together can produce a powerful bond—it marks you for life as someone who can be trusted with what is most important in life. Your friend abdicated that trust, abdicated her place in that circle, and told you what she really valued when she dumped you when you were down—and she probably won't realize what she did until she goes through a similar tragedy or crisis of confidence herself.
To answer the question, then: Should you seek her out? It's up to you. If it's important to you to attempt to reconnect with her, you should try to. But you need to know, as many have already correctly stated, that she may not have any idea how much her denial of your needs hurt you, nor why what she did was wrong. She may not yet be at a place where she can comprehend all of these realities of adult life and trust and compassion—so go forth knowing that, and be prepared for whatever happens.
posted by limeonaire at 7:32 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
Here's how it is: Your old friend doesn't sound particularly understanding. And said lack of understanding most likely stems from the fact that she's probably never experienced significant setbacks on her "upward trajectory." In short, she's been very lucky—but, like fake, she probably thinks it was largely, if not all, her own doing. I know—I used to feel the same way.
Was it all her own doing? That's to some extent a question of attribution—of one's perception of control in the situation. How "in control" we feel is influenced by a lot of things, and each individual has a baseline "locus of control" that influences how positively or negatively s/he views the world. That's what people mean when they talk about empowerment—to be empowered is to feel like you're in control of your life and emotions and not subject to the whims of fate/others. Your old friend feels empowered and in control because she's never had that view challenged. You're beginning to feel more empowered, it sounds like, because you've been through a lot and worked through your problems and gained some measure of self-awareness.
So perception, as you've probably found, is important. But as you and I and anyone who's been through some shit knows, sometimes it isn't a matter of perception. Sometimes, things are genuinely beyond our control, and things go horribly wrong, and when they do, we feel a cold fear that those who've never tasted failure and never lived through the wrenching experience of seeing their hopes and dreams shattered (even if only temporarily) often have a difficult time understanding. They, like fake, tend to think rebuilding one's confidence and self-esteem is simply a matter of self-improvement, of vowing to somehow be "better" and then working on it.
These people wrongly assume that the only things worth sharing are positive things—and I find it difficult to find words for just how wrong that is. The sharing of tragedy is equally as necessary as the sharing of joy.
To feel ineffective, to feel helpless, to fall into a hole and have difficulty pulling out of it—these are all incredibly difficult things to deal with. After coming out of my own depression in college, I was that person who pulled away, who didn't want to be "brought down" by a friend I found overly needy—'cause I was too close to it, too afraid of falling back into myself to come to my friend's aid, and at the same time too wrapped up in myself to realize how hurtful it was to deny her that aid. [[chuckles]] Sometimes those who have been there do the most harm, in their haste to "save themselves."
Only recently did I realize how wrong I was to categorize personal lapses, weaknesses, and failures—both my friend's and my own—as something to be shunned and hidden. Because these things will get worked through, with or without the support of loved ones. What makes the difference is whether you're there for them or not. 'Cause to really make progress and work your way out of the hole, you have to want to be helped, and you have to be willing to help yourself—and of course friends can't grant you the will to do that. But the support of friends makes it far less painful.
There's a "circling of the wagons" that takes place when one goes through a personal tragedy, whether it be the death of a loved one, a medical catastrophe, a failure of any kind, etc. The question one asks—and it's a selfish one, to be sure, but it's a necessary one—is, "Who's with me?" Who can I rely on? Who will stand with me in the face of all this? Overcoming adversity together can produce a powerful bond—it marks you for life as someone who can be trusted with what is most important in life. Your friend abdicated that trust, abdicated her place in that circle, and told you what she really valued when she dumped you when you were down—and she probably won't realize what she did until she goes through a similar tragedy or crisis of confidence herself.
To answer the question, then: Should you seek her out? It's up to you. If it's important to you to attempt to reconnect with her, you should try to. But you need to know, as many have already correctly stated, that she may not have any idea how much her denial of your needs hurt you, nor why what she did was wrong. She may not yet be at a place where she can comprehend all of these realities of adult life and trust and compassion—so go forth knowing that, and be prepared for whatever happens.
posted by limeonaire at 7:32 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
I don't think this person is mature enough for you. You've been through some hard times, and peered behind the veil so to speak. You've changed, or at least started to. She hasn't, and isn't capable of understanding what you've been through. Worse, she sounds like poison. You really don't need to spend your time with someone who can only be around "people that inspire them", etc.
I've got something to say about the people suggesting that life's about not compromising, being strong, being brash, ignoring the weak, success at any price, etc. It may sound like they have it together, but I doubt it. That's not the advice of someone who's successful, that's the advice of a young student who's never experienced the real world or loss, who is probably doomed to a lonely life interspersed with the fleeting pleasures of successfully jumping through some hoop or other on the road to some sort of mediocre success.
Maybe you became depressed because you needed to outgrow your younger personality. Maybe the dream of being top in your field, or making a lot of money, or being super fascinating now seems shallow to you, yet you don't know what else to strive for. I've got some advice for you. Strive to be a good person. You'll end up being twice as successful and happy in life as your friend.
You're young, and you're being crazy hard on yourself. I remember when I was younger and didn't have a career in my early twenties. I thought it was too late, and that life was over. If I met anyone in their early twenties now who felt the same way, I would tell them the world is their oyster. You still have plenty of time to acheive your dreams, and you don't even have to sell your soul to get them.
I would drop this "friend", and start living your new life. Write her a letter occaisonally. Don't meet up with her, even if she asks you.
posted by xammerboy at 7:34 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
I've got something to say about the people suggesting that life's about not compromising, being strong, being brash, ignoring the weak, success at any price, etc. It may sound like they have it together, but I doubt it. That's not the advice of someone who's successful, that's the advice of a young student who's never experienced the real world or loss, who is probably doomed to a lonely life interspersed with the fleeting pleasures of successfully jumping through some hoop or other on the road to some sort of mediocre success.
Maybe you became depressed because you needed to outgrow your younger personality. Maybe the dream of being top in your field, or making a lot of money, or being super fascinating now seems shallow to you, yet you don't know what else to strive for. I've got some advice for you. Strive to be a good person. You'll end up being twice as successful and happy in life as your friend.
You're young, and you're being crazy hard on yourself. I remember when I was younger and didn't have a career in my early twenties. I thought it was too late, and that life was over. If I met anyone in their early twenties now who felt the same way, I would tell them the world is their oyster. You still have plenty of time to acheive your dreams, and you don't even have to sell your soul to get them.
I would drop this "friend", and start living your new life. Write her a letter occaisonally. Don't meet up with her, even if she asks you.
posted by xammerboy at 7:34 PM on April 7, 2007 [2 favorites]
limeonair and xammerboy - it is presumptious to think that people like fake have never had to overcome obstacles.
You can have the outlook fake describes after overcoming set-backs or especially because you have succesfully overcome set-backs. Even if circumstances are out of your control you still can choose how you react to the situation!
I have found myself in deep emotional distress and with circumstances out of my control (losing my mother to cancer), with goals I had worked towards becoming unattainable and became deeply depressed. However I very quickly realised that I needed to get help to work through the issues and got that help and moved on.
And I still find people who lack the resourcefulness to help themselves hard work and would no longer choose to have them as close friends.
I had a friendship like that with an old college friend who ended up being my housemate and is now neither.
We became housemates a few years after graduating and my life was going ok at the time and hers wasn't - she had unresolved relatiosnhip issues with the ex, very bad cash flow due to buying a house she couldn't afford and a useless boss at work.
I was constantly made to feel guilty about not having any major problems to share with her thus not making her feel better about her life?! She was so insecure that she misinterpreted everything I said/did as a chellenge to her/criticism of her and she felt the need to really play the 'this is my house' card...
Alas none of her problems were outside her control - given the above list of issues she started one DIY project after the other (cash flow?) all of which involved the help of the ex, bought a collectable, expensive (cash flow?) but old car which broke down every other day of the week and required the ex to come round to fix and she covered for her useless boss at work...she could have stopped using the ex, stopped spending money and started to look for a different job!
She had dug herself a hole and kept digging...and she was expecting me to feel sorry for her when she kept digging and digging...
I will happily bend over backwards to support people who are trying to sort themselves out. But I am not going to tell you that you are not screwing up if you are. If you insist on making your problems worse with every decision you make you're on your own...the realisation that every single one of your decisions will either make it better or worse is down to you.
Whilst I was sharing with my friend my work situation deteriorated with one colleague turning nasty and a manager feeling threatened because I was able to do a lot of his job - often better than he. This did cause me a lot of distress and was very draining to deal with. But instead of whinging I looked at the situation, decided to get a new job after finishing my last professional exams a few months down the line and to stick it out until then. I sat my last exams mid December and had a new job in Feb.
At that point she showed resentment about my new job which was a step up the ladder but by then I was organising moving to a different town - we did not bother to stay in touch.
I still stand by my earlier comment about finding friends who appreciate you for who you are - I think the two of them idealised each other at a very young age and one noticed sooner than the other that it was a bad match in terms outlook on life and moved on.
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:52 AM on April 8, 2007 [3 favorites]
You can have the outlook fake describes after overcoming set-backs or especially because you have succesfully overcome set-backs. Even if circumstances are out of your control you still can choose how you react to the situation!
I have found myself in deep emotional distress and with circumstances out of my control (losing my mother to cancer), with goals I had worked towards becoming unattainable and became deeply depressed. However I very quickly realised that I needed to get help to work through the issues and got that help and moved on.
And I still find people who lack the resourcefulness to help themselves hard work and would no longer choose to have them as close friends.
I had a friendship like that with an old college friend who ended up being my housemate and is now neither.
We became housemates a few years after graduating and my life was going ok at the time and hers wasn't - she had unresolved relatiosnhip issues with the ex, very bad cash flow due to buying a house she couldn't afford and a useless boss at work.
I was constantly made to feel guilty about not having any major problems to share with her thus not making her feel better about her life?! She was so insecure that she misinterpreted everything I said/did as a chellenge to her/criticism of her and she felt the need to really play the 'this is my house' card...
Alas none of her problems were outside her control - given the above list of issues she started one DIY project after the other (cash flow?) all of which involved the help of the ex, bought a collectable, expensive (cash flow?) but old car which broke down every other day of the week and required the ex to come round to fix and she covered for her useless boss at work...she could have stopped using the ex, stopped spending money and started to look for a different job!
She had dug herself a hole and kept digging...and she was expecting me to feel sorry for her when she kept digging and digging...
I will happily bend over backwards to support people who are trying to sort themselves out. But I am not going to tell you that you are not screwing up if you are. If you insist on making your problems worse with every decision you make you're on your own...the realisation that every single one of your decisions will either make it better or worse is down to you.
Whilst I was sharing with my friend my work situation deteriorated with one colleague turning nasty and a manager feeling threatened because I was able to do a lot of his job - often better than he. This did cause me a lot of distress and was very draining to deal with. But instead of whinging I looked at the situation, decided to get a new job after finishing my last professional exams a few months down the line and to stick it out until then. I sat my last exams mid December and had a new job in Feb.
At that point she showed resentment about my new job which was a step up the ladder but by then I was organising moving to a different town - we did not bother to stay in touch.
I still stand by my earlier comment about finding friends who appreciate you for who you are - I think the two of them idealised each other at a very young age and one noticed sooner than the other that it was a bad match in terms outlook on life and moved on.
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:52 AM on April 8, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think you are still caught up in feeling all those bad feelings of failure over not gliding through your early twenties like you wanted. Coming from someone who had an experience similar to you, once you start putting distance between that time in your life and where you are now, the desire to "make right" will fade. Concentrate on fighting for what you want right now. Once you have several really good things in the bank, your desire to re-establish that friendship will fade.
posted by Foam Pants at 2:02 PM on April 9, 2007
posted by Foam Pants at 2:02 PM on April 9, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
Don't be ashamed of your past - all past experiences make you the person you are today. Learn to forgive yourself and move on.
I wish you luck in the future!
posted by beachhead2 at 9:06 AM on April 7, 2007