Yer nicked eiver way guvna'
October 15, 2006 11:14 PM Subscribe
LAW101 question : Let's say the law says "If you do X or if you do Y, then you're nicked". Let's also say that in reality you did Y but you didn't do X. Suppose at trial the judge incorrectly ruled that you had done X so you're nicked but didn't say anything about Y. If you appealed the decision on the basis that the judge was wrong about X and can prove it, do you win your appeal even though you did Y and should have been nicked anyway?
In case you are wondering this is a commercial case related to whether someone made either a false representation or a misleading representation.
In case you are wondering this is a commercial case related to whether someone made either a false representation or a misleading representation.
Response by poster: Ok but is it the appellate court's job to ascertain whether you also did Y? Or does it just decide whether the lower court made a mistake and send it back if it necessary?
posted by vizsla at 12:02 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by vizsla at 12:02 AM on October 16, 2006
There's no general principle. It's entirely about details and particulars. From the generic description you've provided it's impossible for us to answer your question.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:03 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:03 AM on October 16, 2006
This is all rather vague, but if whether you did x is a question of fact, you will probably lose your appeal even if you think you can "prove" you didn't do x. You will not win any appeal where the trial court has made a finding of fact that you did x, and your argument on appeal is "no, I really didn't. Please look again."
If the trial judge ruled as a matter of law that what you did qualifies as x rather than y, then yes, you might win an appeal in which you argue that he/she erred in applying the relevant distinction. (In this case your "proof" would be differing interpretations of the distinction in similar cases, or a binding higher court decision that established rules for making the distinction.)
Also, roomwithaview is right - "winning" the appeal does not necessarily mean that the case goes away. If the facts are not in dispute, in certain circumstances the appellate court can even enter a new judgment without sending the case back.
Disclaimers: IANAL (but I did go to law school), and I don't know where in the world you are. We are speaking in generalities here, and the devil, as always, is in the details. Also, it's late at night, and my brain is tired.
posted by Urban Hermit at 12:13 AM on October 16, 2006
If the trial judge ruled as a matter of law that what you did qualifies as x rather than y, then yes, you might win an appeal in which you argue that he/she erred in applying the relevant distinction. (In this case your "proof" would be differing interpretations of the distinction in similar cases, or a binding higher court decision that established rules for making the distinction.)
Also, roomwithaview is right - "winning" the appeal does not necessarily mean that the case goes away. If the facts are not in dispute, in certain circumstances the appellate court can even enter a new judgment without sending the case back.
Disclaimers: IANAL (but I did go to law school), and I don't know where in the world you are. We are speaking in generalities here, and the devil, as always, is in the details. Also, it's late at night, and my brain is tired.
posted by Urban Hermit at 12:13 AM on October 16, 2006
Response by poster: Hmm. Ok below are the particulars.
The particular law says words to the effect of "you shall not make a misleading or false statement about the price of your goods". (This is not US law but similar.) Basically a price was advertised with an asterisk and an additional charge was included in the fine print. The judge said the representation about the price was false. You can show that this practice has been ruled as misleading before but never as false and rule doesn't meet the required standards of "falsity" according to previous rulings.
P.S. Please don't argue the facts of the case with me i.e. whether the statement WAS false or not. Assume what I said above is true. I just want to know what happens in an appeal process in any major Western country.
And yes this is a real case. No it has nothing to do with me personally.
Thanks.
posted by vizsla at 12:14 AM on October 16, 2006
The particular law says words to the effect of "you shall not make a misleading or false statement about the price of your goods". (This is not US law but similar.) Basically a price was advertised with an asterisk and an additional charge was included in the fine print. The judge said the representation about the price was false. You can show that this practice has been ruled as misleading before but never as false and rule doesn't meet the required standards of "falsity" according to previous rulings.
P.S. Please don't argue the facts of the case with me i.e. whether the statement WAS false or not. Assume what I said above is true. I just want to know what happens in an appeal process in any major Western country.
And yes this is a real case. No it has nothing to do with me personally.
Thanks.
posted by vizsla at 12:14 AM on October 16, 2006
The appeal is limited to the record in the district court. No new evidence (facts) can be entered. The appeal is about describing the evidence of record and applying the law to see if mistakes were made in the district court decision. Beyond this you need to hire a lawyer to assess your chances on appeal.
posted by caddis at 3:50 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by caddis at 3:50 AM on October 16, 2006
IANAL, but my understanding is that caddis is right: the appeal court will not (well, hardly ever) make new findings of fact, but it will correct errors of law. In this case from what you're saying the guilt of the party is not in doubt, so the appeal court would say something like "That's not false, it's misleading." Then if they think it's a relevant distinction they can send it back to the lower court to be decided again, applying the law properly this time. Or they can just substitute a verdict of their own. Either way, the guilty party doesn't get off scot-free.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:04 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:04 AM on October 16, 2006
Best answer: Generalizing from the US:
1. No new findings of fact on appeal.
2. Assuming the misleading issue was pled below, and not abandoned, and not the subject of an adverse decision below by the court, likely result in the event of victory on the falsity issue will be for a remand for further proceedings on the misleading issue.
3. If the misleading issue was pursued below and lost by the plaintiffs, they will typically pursue it as an alternative basis for affirming the trial court, but sounds like further factual development may be necessary, and a remand in order.
4. It may be that the misleading issue has been effectively abandoned. Without getting all technical, it may be that the final resolution of the falsity issue in defendant's favor will effectively foreclose the plaintiff from recasting the same dispute as having to do with misleading-ness in any new action against the defendant.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:27 AM on October 16, 2006
1. No new findings of fact on appeal.
2. Assuming the misleading issue was pled below, and not abandoned, and not the subject of an adverse decision below by the court, likely result in the event of victory on the falsity issue will be for a remand for further proceedings on the misleading issue.
3. If the misleading issue was pursued below and lost by the plaintiffs, they will typically pursue it as an alternative basis for affirming the trial court, but sounds like further factual development may be necessary, and a remand in order.
4. It may be that the misleading issue has been effectively abandoned. Without getting all technical, it may be that the final resolution of the falsity issue in defendant's favor will effectively foreclose the plaintiff from recasting the same dispute as having to do with misleading-ness in any new action against the defendant.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:27 AM on October 16, 2006
What Clyde Mnestra said is pretty much right. In the US system, the appeals court would typically reverse and remand for reconsideration of the other grounds for appeal. In a non-US court system, though, it may not work the same.
I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice.
posted by raf at 6:42 AM on October 16, 2006
I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice.
posted by raf at 6:42 AM on October 16, 2006
Response by poster: Thank you. Every answer added a little more to my understanding. Sorry for the non-lawyer dumbassishness in my phrasing of the question.
posted by vizsla at 11:19 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by vizsla at 11:19 AM on October 16, 2006
Is it clear to everyone else that the law is defining two seperate offenses? "By doing either X or Y you commit the offense A." Am I explaining myself? If so, am I completely off base?
posted by stuart_s at 8:11 PM on October 16, 2006
posted by stuart_s at 8:11 PM on October 16, 2006
Response by poster: Is it clear to everyone else that the law is defining two seperate offenses?
Not sure what you mean but in this case it is the same offence whether you do X or Y.
posted by vizsla at 9:48 PM on October 16, 2006
Not sure what you mean but in this case it is the same offence whether you do X or Y.
posted by vizsla at 9:48 PM on October 16, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by roomwithaview at 11:43 PM on October 15, 2006