Why can't I get past the first date?
July 4, 2006 1:44 AM Subscribe
DatingFilter: Why can't I get past the first date?
I’m a highly sociable extrovert in a group setting (I make friends very easily) but I’m clueless when it comes to dating (especially moving from the first date to the second). My de facto first date is drinks at a bar followed by dinner (or sometimes the other way around). I can talk about pretty much any topic (I’m never really lost for words) and listen quite well too. But I always end up coming off as simply wanting to be her buddy. I try really hard to avoid that but I never know when/how to make a move (especially over dinner) and that makes me come off as being aloof. My questions are:
a) How do I show a woman that I’m interested? I try to make physical contact when entering/leaving a restaurant/bar but I can’t really do that over dinner. Dancing would allow me to do that but I don’t know much before the first date to ask someone out dancing. What else should I do on a first date besides dinner/drinks? A movie definitely sounds like a worse idea.
b) Do you always kiss her at the end of a first date? What if you don’t? Again, I’m always clueless whether or not I should go in for the kiss when I drop her off at home. What signals should I look for? Or should I just go in for the kiss at the risk of rejection?
I’ve been on a single streak for a while and I’m making a conscious effort to date (women that I've just met, not acquainted with for a bit). With girlfriends in the past, we just hit it off fairly quickly w/o actually going on a first date.
I’m a highly sociable extrovert in a group setting (I make friends very easily) but I’m clueless when it comes to dating (especially moving from the first date to the second). My de facto first date is drinks at a bar followed by dinner (or sometimes the other way around). I can talk about pretty much any topic (I’m never really lost for words) and listen quite well too. But I always end up coming off as simply wanting to be her buddy. I try really hard to avoid that but I never know when/how to make a move (especially over dinner) and that makes me come off as being aloof. My questions are:
a) How do I show a woman that I’m interested? I try to make physical contact when entering/leaving a restaurant/bar but I can’t really do that over dinner. Dancing would allow me to do that but I don’t know much before the first date to ask someone out dancing. What else should I do on a first date besides dinner/drinks? A movie definitely sounds like a worse idea.
b) Do you always kiss her at the end of a first date? What if you don’t? Again, I’m always clueless whether or not I should go in for the kiss when I drop her off at home. What signals should I look for? Or should I just go in for the kiss at the risk of rejection?
I’ve been on a single streak for a while and I’m making a conscious effort to date (women that I've just met, not acquainted with for a bit). With girlfriends in the past, we just hit it off fairly quickly w/o actually going on a first date.
A lot of women don't drink much, or don't like to drink with men they don't know well. If you could come up with some dating agenda that doesn't start out in a bar, you might do better.
posted by paulsc at 2:52 AM on July 4, 2006
posted by paulsc at 2:52 AM on July 4, 2006
Here, read this article on dating/body language. It could be that you are somehow doing something that is screwing up the body language and sending the wrong signals. After all, you're describing a situation in which the woman is already out with you, so she's interested. You don't have a problem with conversation... So, it's something else.
The most important attraction information is conveyed nonverbally, and if you are physically self-conscious in some way(s), you might be doing something that belies your actual feelings... Like someone self-conscious about their weight may sit with their arms crossed in front of their stomach - but this reads as "distrustful, closed". Maybe someone has a zit they imagine is huge, so tries to present with that side of their face away from their date - this messes up the "aligning" signal.
The whole body language thing is fascinating, and worth reading up on in order to catch the cues that someone is interested in you (or not!), and to keep yourself from sending the wrong messages. One of the biggies is "synchronization" or "mirroring" (unconsciously lifting your glass or fork, crossing your legs, etc. at the same time), and my husband and I had this from the first moment... so much so that it was actually comical. I would never try to simulate this just to make a date "work", but it's worth noting if you find it happening... it means that there's a nice flow/attraction between the two of you.
posted by taz at 2:57 AM on July 4, 2006
The most important attraction information is conveyed nonverbally, and if you are physically self-conscious in some way(s), you might be doing something that belies your actual feelings... Like someone self-conscious about their weight may sit with their arms crossed in front of their stomach - but this reads as "distrustful, closed". Maybe someone has a zit they imagine is huge, so tries to present with that side of their face away from their date - this messes up the "aligning" signal.
The whole body language thing is fascinating, and worth reading up on in order to catch the cues that someone is interested in you (or not!), and to keep yourself from sending the wrong messages. One of the biggies is "synchronization" or "mirroring" (unconsciously lifting your glass or fork, crossing your legs, etc. at the same time), and my husband and I had this from the first moment... so much so that it was actually comical. I would never try to simulate this just to make a date "work", but it's worth noting if you find it happening... it means that there's a nice flow/attraction between the two of you.
posted by taz at 2:57 AM on July 4, 2006
Dates in the park during the day can be fun too. Or even zoos, aquariums, museums, art galleries and so on. The bonus of going outside of the usual "dinner/bar" scenario is that it takes the whole pressure off something having to happen.
I've always found being touched while dancing when I've just met someone a little bit creepy. Much better to go to a gig of some band you both like and dance along there - but of course that depends on personal preferences.
I would be less concerned about kissing after the first date, and look more into your following up techniques.
Something like "I had a really good time. Maybe next time we can go out to [insert restaurant of choice - based on her and your food likes - you will probably talk about food during the first date]. I'll give you a call mid-week."
And then for goodness sake call when you say you will. You will score supa-bonus date points if you do. Then see how you go on the second date when you are both feeling a bit more comfortable with the whole thing.
Perhaps at the end of the second date you can risk a peck on the cheek goodnight.
Things to look out for:
Does she touch you when she talks to you?
Has she picked lint off your clothes during the date?
Is she open and friendly and smiling a lot?
These are all big hints you are in with a chance.
If you get rejected during the follow up call - move on to the next one!
posted by gomichild at 3:07 AM on July 4, 2006
I've always found being touched while dancing when I've just met someone a little bit creepy. Much better to go to a gig of some band you both like and dance along there - but of course that depends on personal preferences.
I would be less concerned about kissing after the first date, and look more into your following up techniques.
Something like "I had a really good time. Maybe next time we can go out to [insert restaurant of choice - based on her and your food likes - you will probably talk about food during the first date]. I'll give you a call mid-week."
And then for goodness sake call when you say you will. You will score supa-bonus date points if you do. Then see how you go on the second date when you are both feeling a bit more comfortable with the whole thing.
Perhaps at the end of the second date you can risk a peck on the cheek goodnight.
Things to look out for:
Does she touch you when she talks to you?
Has she picked lint off your clothes during the date?
Is she open and friendly and smiling a lot?
These are all big hints you are in with a chance.
If you get rejected during the follow up call - move on to the next one!
posted by gomichild at 3:07 AM on July 4, 2006
Yup, definitely think you're being too nice. You know the way there was that girl that you saw as just a friend that you used to take the piss out of all the time and generally have a laugh with, but it turned out she became attracted to you. And there was also this girl you really liked so you made an extra effort and was real nice to her and all but she saw you as just a friend. Sound familiar?
It's kind of counter-intuitive but women seem to go for guys that don't make it too easy for them, but don't back off too much either. They tend to find guys more attractive when you tease them and stuff, in a light-hearted way, while hinting at the possibility of more.
Oh and as noted above, the body language, gotta look out for the body language!
To give a fairly stupid example, say you're at the end of a date and dropping her home and she says 'Thanks I had a cool night', saying something like 'Hey, you'll have to come up with something better than that if you want me to kiss you goodnight!' is probably more likey to result in a kiss goodnight then, 'Cool, me too, well I'll call you.'
Obviously it's a fine line to walk between between being a fun, confident guy and being a bit of a jerk, but hey, if we'd figured that out the world would be much less interesting place.
posted by TwoWordReview at 3:58 AM on July 4, 2006
It's kind of counter-intuitive but women seem to go for guys that don't make it too easy for them, but don't back off too much either. They tend to find guys more attractive when you tease them and stuff, in a light-hearted way, while hinting at the possibility of more.
Oh and as noted above, the body language, gotta look out for the body language!
To give a fairly stupid example, say you're at the end of a date and dropping her home and she says 'Thanks I had a cool night', saying something like 'Hey, you'll have to come up with something better than that if you want me to kiss you goodnight!' is probably more likey to result in a kiss goodnight then, 'Cool, me too, well I'll call you.'
Obviously it's a fine line to walk between between being a fun, confident guy and being a bit of a jerk, but hey, if we'd figured that out the world would be much less interesting place.
posted by TwoWordReview at 3:58 AM on July 4, 2006
Um... that body language line was supposed to go at the end. Consarnit!
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:00 AM on July 4, 2006
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:00 AM on July 4, 2006
You know, it's confusing as hell for us girls too. The stuff above about body language is important, but you can send your signals perfectly clearly too. The best thing you can do is just say flat out at the end of a date that you enjoyed, "hey, I had a great time and I'd really like to see you again soon." That way, you've left no doubt as to your intentions. And then call or email the next day, no matter what those stupid rules say. (Or, if you want to be a rulesboy and keep some distance, say "I'll call you midweek" like the above post says and then do. At least then you've let her know when you plan to contact her again.)
Another unmistakable message you can send is to compliment her looks - if you like her eyes, say so. Does she have a melodious laugh? Tell her you like it. Guys who just want to be your buddy don't say stuff like that. But obviously, a little of this goes a long way, so don't overdo it.
Re the above: Teasing is great for some girls, not others. You really have to judge your audience. Personally, I love the banter, but I think shyer girls might be intimidated or turned off. It's also all about what your personal style is. Don't try to be something you're not - you'd just come off as trying too hard and nothing's worse than being out with Mr. Fakey McPhoneypants.
Just remember: most of the time we're sitting there wondering, does he like me? It's not like we're good at this either, you know. And our last date was probably with the type of guy who thinks like this: "reward her with affection only if you honestly feel she deserves it."
And as for the kiss, you should go for it if it feels right, but don't make a rule.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:39 AM on July 4, 2006 [3 favorites]
Another unmistakable message you can send is to compliment her looks - if you like her eyes, say so. Does she have a melodious laugh? Tell her you like it. Guys who just want to be your buddy don't say stuff like that. But obviously, a little of this goes a long way, so don't overdo it.
Re the above: Teasing is great for some girls, not others. You really have to judge your audience. Personally, I love the banter, but I think shyer girls might be intimidated or turned off. It's also all about what your personal style is. Don't try to be something you're not - you'd just come off as trying too hard and nothing's worse than being out with Mr. Fakey McPhoneypants.
Just remember: most of the time we're sitting there wondering, does he like me? It's not like we're good at this either, you know. And our last date was probably with the type of guy who thinks like this: "reward her with affection only if you honestly feel she deserves it."
And as for the kiss, you should go for it if it feels right, but don't make a rule.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:39 AM on July 4, 2006 [3 favorites]
You should ask your female friends what they think of you. You might get a few tips on good and bad features of yourself that you can use to your adventage.
Also, when you say you're a highly sociable extrovert and can talk about any topic, it sounds like you may not spend enough time listening to your date and are too busy thinking about to impress them. Trying too hard can smack of desperation. Perhaps relax a bit more, listen to what they have to say and maybe you'll give a good enough impression to get a second date.
posted by movilla at 5:22 AM on July 4, 2006
Also, when you say you're a highly sociable extrovert and can talk about any topic, it sounds like you may not spend enough time listening to your date and are too busy thinking about to impress them. Trying too hard can smack of desperation. Perhaps relax a bit more, listen to what they have to say and maybe you'll give a good enough impression to get a second date.
posted by movilla at 5:22 AM on July 4, 2006
Two words - cocky and funny.
You MUST be cocky on the date. When she says something, be slightly judgemental. LIke "Really? you do THAT?"
Then goof on it slightly with a bit of humor. Which is where the funny comes in.
And finally...mystery. Do NOT answer any of her questions about your life in the getting to know you stage. When she asks a question, turn it around and ask her about the same thing about herself. Your answers, your conversation, your details SPECIFICALLY about YOU should be no more than one sentence each time about you. Then turn it back around to her and get her to talk about herself.
When she does, feel free to refer to the cocky funny bit from before.
Do this on the first date and I guarantee results.
posted by rileyray3000 at 5:35 AM on July 4, 2006
You MUST be cocky on the date. When she says something, be slightly judgemental. LIke "Really? you do THAT?"
Then goof on it slightly with a bit of humor. Which is where the funny comes in.
And finally...mystery. Do NOT answer any of her questions about your life in the getting to know you stage. When she asks a question, turn it around and ask her about the same thing about herself. Your answers, your conversation, your details SPECIFICALLY about YOU should be no more than one sentence each time about you. Then turn it back around to her and get her to talk about herself.
When she does, feel free to refer to the cocky funny bit from before.
Do this on the first date and I guarantee results.
posted by rileyray3000 at 5:35 AM on July 4, 2006
Regarding the kiss, this thread may interest you.
(Oh, and, on preview: if a guy failed to answer my questions about his life, however subtle he was about it, by the end of the date, I would have mentally labelled him with a flashing red sign reading "married!" Well, that or "sociopath!" depending on his demeanor. YMMV.)
posted by Elsa at 5:42 AM on July 4, 2006
(Oh, and, on preview: if a guy failed to answer my questions about his life, however subtle he was about it, by the end of the date, I would have mentally labelled him with a flashing red sign reading "married!" Well, that or "sociopath!" depending on his demeanor. YMMV.)
posted by Elsa at 5:42 AM on July 4, 2006
There's no such thing as "too nice". When people say "too nice" what they really mean is "too passive". You need to project confidence and assertiveness. If you don't know the restaurant well, at least know the general cuisine well so that you can suggest something if she's not familiar with the food. Learn a few of the most basic facts about wine so that you can make a sensible choice and won't feel the need to apologise for your lack of knowledge. Always have a plan.
This is not about being a jerk or about women wanting to be submissive or whatever, it's about her need to have confidence that when life gets tough you're going to be up to dealing with it. And of course you need to show her that you care about her as well, but I suspect that you're already doing that well enough already.
posted by teleskiving at 5:52 AM on July 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
This is not about being a jerk or about women wanting to be submissive or whatever, it's about her need to have confidence that when life gets tough you're going to be up to dealing with it. And of course you need to show her that you care about her as well, but I suspect that you're already doing that well enough already.
posted by teleskiving at 5:52 AM on July 4, 2006 [2 favorites]
There's no such thing as "too nice".
That was worth repeating.
posted by Elsa at 5:56 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
That was worth repeating.
posted by Elsa at 5:56 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
Please give the "two words" a rest. There are endless iterations and all can just as much apply to the OP as not. For example...
I've got two words for you:
cocky and funny
charming and polite
arrogant and interested
...et-fucking-cetera.
Here's two words that might actually help:
Be yourself.
It sounds like you've been striking out recently, and I feel for you buddy, but unless you're a raging asshole, the above two words will eventually land you someone that you naturally hit it off with (naturally, as opposed to following some secret recipe that will get someone to respond to someone that's not really you).
I’m clueless when it comes to dating (especially moving from the first date to the second).
The sooner you make the second date, the better. If you can schedule something at the end of the first date (provided it's going reasonably well), all the better. (For example, as you're walking her to her door, "Hey, there's a great [insert common interest here] coming up in a couple of days. You interested in checking it out?")
How do I show a woman that I’m interested?
You ask her out on a date. Oh! Looks like you've already gotten to that part. Exactly... :) If you're on a date, you can kind of assume they understand you're "interested". Women are good at picking up on those subtle signals.
Do you always kiss her at the end of a first date? What if you don’t?
Not always (if, for example, it's going badly) otherwise, usually, yes. I'm of the opinion that even an awkward kiss can be better than no kiss at all, because you can try and parlay it into something better with humor. (For example, "Wow, that was dreadful. Do you mind if I try that again?")
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:11 AM on July 4, 2006
I've got two words for you:
cocky and funny
charming and polite
arrogant and interested
...et-fucking-cetera.
Here's two words that might actually help:
Be yourself.
It sounds like you've been striking out recently, and I feel for you buddy, but unless you're a raging asshole, the above two words will eventually land you someone that you naturally hit it off with (naturally, as opposed to following some secret recipe that will get someone to respond to someone that's not really you).
I’m clueless when it comes to dating (especially moving from the first date to the second).
The sooner you make the second date, the better. If you can schedule something at the end of the first date (provided it's going reasonably well), all the better. (For example, as you're walking her to her door, "Hey, there's a great [insert common interest here] coming up in a couple of days. You interested in checking it out?")
How do I show a woman that I’m interested?
You ask her out on a date. Oh! Looks like you've already gotten to that part. Exactly... :) If you're on a date, you can kind of assume they understand you're "interested". Women are good at picking up on those subtle signals.
Do you always kiss her at the end of a first date? What if you don’t?
Not always (if, for example, it's going badly) otherwise, usually, yes. I'm of the opinion that even an awkward kiss can be better than no kiss at all, because you can try and parlay it into something better with humor. (For example, "Wow, that was dreadful. Do you mind if I try that again?")
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:11 AM on July 4, 2006
mystery. Do NOT answer any of her questions about your life in the getting to know you stage. When she asks a question, turn it around and ask her about the same thing about herself.
Boy, that's terrible advice. (See Elsa's comment for a likely response.) Be nice, be funny, above all be yourself. And yeah, compliment her looks. Women like knowing you consider them attractive.
posted by languagehat at 6:17 AM on July 4, 2006
Boy, that's terrible advice. (See Elsa's comment for a likely response.) Be nice, be funny, above all be yourself. And yeah, compliment her looks. Women like knowing you consider them attractive.
posted by languagehat at 6:17 AM on July 4, 2006
Some of the guys I've dated have ended the first date by explicitly saying, "I had a really great time tonight. I'd love to see you again." My fiance ended our first date that way, and, obviously, it worked.
Right now, are you waiting for the woman to suggest a second date? Are you waiting for her to call you up? I'm not sure that'll work. We're too conditioned to believe that the guy likes the thrill of the hunt to show that much interest so soon.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:54 AM on July 4, 2006
Right now, are you waiting for the woman to suggest a second date? Are you waiting for her to call you up? I'm not sure that'll work. We're too conditioned to believe that the guy likes the thrill of the hunt to show that much interest so soon.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:54 AM on July 4, 2006
As a girl, I think that anyone following rileyray's advice would come across as a tool.
Maybe you should try the traditional* movie for a first date? It's traditional because there's plenty of opportunity for physical contact, something to distract you if it's not going well, and easy to segue into coffee or something informal afterwards. I work in a restaurant and we can usually spot first dates or singles groups out for dinner - they look awkward, and I think it's really too formal a situation to 'get to know each other'.
*teenage tradition, I guess, but I think it works for adults too.
posted by jacalata at 7:09 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
Maybe you should try the traditional* movie for a first date? It's traditional because there's plenty of opportunity for physical contact, something to distract you if it's not going well, and easy to segue into coffee or something informal afterwards. I work in a restaurant and we can usually spot first dates or singles groups out for dinner - they look awkward, and I think it's really too formal a situation to 'get to know each other'.
*teenage tradition, I guess, but I think it works for adults too.
posted by jacalata at 7:09 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
There's something wrong with how you're asking for that first date. It should be impossible for a woman to assume you want to buddies if you've asked her out properly. A proper first date is an unambiguous mutual romantic audition, and should be proposed in terms that leave no doubt about that.
posted by MattD at 7:22 AM on July 4, 2006
posted by MattD at 7:22 AM on July 4, 2006
In my experience, this is so much less about what you do than how you feel. If you feel comfortable and attractive during the date and if you are at ease with your desires and your sexuality, then things will fall into place astonishingly easily.
Are you comfortable? Do you feel attractive? Are you at ease with your desires? Or are you ambivalent, overexcited and ill-at-ease? If so, try to find the reasons for that and change things. Ask yourself why you are dating at all. What do you seek? Romance, adventure, security, companionship? And if you feel ambivalent: Are there reasons why you unconsciously would not want any more than one date?
Try to have a good time and to make the situation comfortable for yourself. That way, even if the date doesn't lead to further advances, at least you had a good time. Plus it doesn't make you come across as 'trying too hard'.
As an aside, I do not agree that there is no such thing as 'too nice'. There definitely is. When you are just trying to please her, as opposed to yourself, then that's too nice, especially if you do so regardless of how she treats you. Also, I suppose some men regard their sexual desires as 'not nice' (but rather as aggressive and intimidating). If by this reasoning anyone would refrain from making erotic advances on a date, that would definitely be too 'nice'.
posted by Herr Fahrstuhl at 7:50 AM on July 4, 2006
Are you comfortable? Do you feel attractive? Are you at ease with your desires? Or are you ambivalent, overexcited and ill-at-ease? If so, try to find the reasons for that and change things. Ask yourself why you are dating at all. What do you seek? Romance, adventure, security, companionship? And if you feel ambivalent: Are there reasons why you unconsciously would not want any more than one date?
Try to have a good time and to make the situation comfortable for yourself. That way, even if the date doesn't lead to further advances, at least you had a good time. Plus it doesn't make you come across as 'trying too hard'.
As an aside, I do not agree that there is no such thing as 'too nice'. There definitely is. When you are just trying to please her, as opposed to yourself, then that's too nice, especially if you do so regardless of how she treats you. Also, I suppose some men regard their sexual desires as 'not nice' (but rather as aggressive and intimidating). If by this reasoning anyone would refrain from making erotic advances on a date, that would definitely be too 'nice'.
posted by Herr Fahrstuhl at 7:50 AM on July 4, 2006
I have to say, I hate the concept of there being some universal body language thing to look for. Some girls, like some guys, aren't touchy-feely in that way and aren't going to indicate that they like someone by doing things like that. I've been with several women that initially weren't doing that, because they were women that were much more conscious of people's personal space.
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 8:15 AM on July 4, 2006
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 8:15 AM on July 4, 2006
If you don't want to be thought of as a friend, you can't act like a friend. Be flirty. Be bolder than you think you should. Figure out how to give off sexual energy.
And I do somewhat agree with the "cocky" advice. Not frat-boy cocky, but being very self-confident, as if you know she's into you and you're just making up your mind about her, is often helpful.
Exhibiting mastery is useful. Just taking her to a good (not necessarily fancy) restaurant that you know or introducing her to a new genre of food, etc., is good.
Try to keep the first date short. I think drinks and dinner is too much. Have a drink with dinner if you like. You want to leave her wanting more.
posted by callmejay at 8:33 AM on July 4, 2006
And I do somewhat agree with the "cocky" advice. Not frat-boy cocky, but being very self-confident, as if you know she's into you and you're just making up your mind about her, is often helpful.
Exhibiting mastery is useful. Just taking her to a good (not necessarily fancy) restaurant that you know or introducing her to a new genre of food, etc., is good.
Try to keep the first date short. I think drinks and dinner is too much. Have a drink with dinner if you like. You want to leave her wanting more.
posted by callmejay at 8:33 AM on July 4, 2006
Classic Nice Guy Syndrome. I can say from my own experience that when I no longer seemed like I was 'shopping around' and started looking like I didn't give much of a rat's ass about relationships, I finally got somewhere with dating. It's counterintuitive but true in my case. I think maybe instead of merely demonstrating confidence and assertiveness, I was actually living and breathing it.
posted by chef_boyardee at 9:25 AM on July 4, 2006
posted by chef_boyardee at 9:25 AM on July 4, 2006
FWIW, I think dinner and drinks is an awful first date. It always feels like a business meeting. Also, you can't make physical contact if there is a table between you and her.
My favorite first dates: anything outside: free outdoor concerts, hot dogs in the park, going to the zoo, romantic strolls around some lovely tourisy place in your area.
Museums (does your local museum have a "free" night?); Art galleries; a movie followed by desert and coffee somewhere.
What you want in an ideal first date is a) space to walk or sit side by side, so you can make body contact (or not); b) something that will give you a topic of conversation besides talking about yourselves but will also allow you to have a "shared experience" and c) ideally, an oportunity to laugh a lot.
Laughing is sexy. If you make me laugh, and if you laugh, I'll like you more than if its all serious and dull. But then, also, you need to know when to tone it down a bit, when to brush against my arm, make hand-against-hand contact, maybe move my hair away from my face or put you hand on my back. If you don't touch me, I won't think you're interested in me "that way".
It doesn't matter if you're a nice guy or an ass, if I don't believe that you find me both intellectually and physically stimulating, I'm not going to want to go much further with things.
posted by anastasiav at 10:35 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
My favorite first dates: anything outside: free outdoor concerts, hot dogs in the park, going to the zoo, romantic strolls around some lovely tourisy place in your area.
Museums (does your local museum have a "free" night?); Art galleries; a movie followed by desert and coffee somewhere.
What you want in an ideal first date is a) space to walk or sit side by side, so you can make body contact (or not); b) something that will give you a topic of conversation besides talking about yourselves but will also allow you to have a "shared experience" and c) ideally, an oportunity to laugh a lot.
Laughing is sexy. If you make me laugh, and if you laugh, I'll like you more than if its all serious and dull. But then, also, you need to know when to tone it down a bit, when to brush against my arm, make hand-against-hand contact, maybe move my hair away from my face or put you hand on my back. If you don't touch me, I won't think you're interested in me "that way".
It doesn't matter if you're a nice guy or an ass, if I don't believe that you find me both intellectually and physically stimulating, I'm not going to want to go much further with things.
posted by anastasiav at 10:35 AM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
Relax a bit, friend. You'll start picking up on things if you relax and allow your natural intuition to do what it can do.
As long as you're not coming at romantic situations from a place of anxiety, you'll be fine. Don't worry too much about whether or not something is objectively right to do; every situation is different, and intuitively reading a situation is far more valuable than having the right rules in mind. If you come on too strong, a woman will probably let you know.
At its best, I think dating is an exciting process of mutual discovery. Maybe try thinking of it like that. I've found it helpful, anyhow.
posted by clockzero at 10:55 AM on July 4, 2006
As long as you're not coming at romantic situations from a place of anxiety, you'll be fine. Don't worry too much about whether or not something is objectively right to do; every situation is different, and intuitively reading a situation is far more valuable than having the right rules in mind. If you come on too strong, a woman will probably let you know.
At its best, I think dating is an exciting process of mutual discovery. Maybe try thinking of it like that. I've found it helpful, anyhow.
posted by clockzero at 10:55 AM on July 4, 2006
One piece of advice I can give you is to go on more dates. Do online dating if you must, but try to have more dates, even if they are all first dates. Don’t wait to find that perfect someone before asking for a date, ask anyone who seems like she would be fun to hang out with. While you’re on those dates just try to have a good time, and don’t worry about where it is or isn’t going. The point of this is that after you go on enough of them you'll come to regard a date as a rather usual, somewhat mundane occurrence, and you'll be much more relaxed and comfortable on subsequent dates. This will make you appear much more desirable.
One more thing, if at the end of a date you really want to kiss a girl, try staring her in the eyes. If she returns your look, then move in for the kiss. If she looks away, then back down, and act like nothing has happened. Most of the time, this is a good way to figure out whether or not she wants to be kissed, while avoiding a really embarrassing situation. This is probably a very obvious thing, but it may be worth mentioning.
posted by epimorph at 2:29 PM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
One more thing, if at the end of a date you really want to kiss a girl, try staring her in the eyes. If she returns your look, then move in for the kiss. If she looks away, then back down, and act like nothing has happened. Most of the time, this is a good way to figure out whether or not she wants to be kissed, while avoiding a really embarrassing situation. This is probably a very obvious thing, but it may be worth mentioning.
posted by epimorph at 2:29 PM on July 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
epimorph, that is the most sensical and totallyunabletobescrewedup kiss-check method i have ever heard. can you get nobel prizes for things like that?
posted by soma lkzx at 9:03 PM on July 4, 2006
posted by soma lkzx at 9:03 PM on July 4, 2006
Getting stuck in the "friend" thing is usually based on one of two things:
1.) Being too passive. No one these days seems to wants to take charge in a relationship, but girls have a biological excuse for wanting someone a bit more aggressive.
2.) You're just not attractive. I obviously have no idea whether this is the case, but I think a lot of women just don't want to tell a man, "Hey, I'd date you, but you're ugly." Take a look at yourself. Could you lose weight, be more in shape, dress better, get a haircut, whatever? Do so. Men are not the only folks who make judgments based on appearance, humans are visual creatures.
posted by dagnyscott at 9:12 PM on July 4, 2006
1.) Being too passive. No one these days seems to wants to take charge in a relationship, but girls have a biological excuse for wanting someone a bit more aggressive.
2.) You're just not attractive. I obviously have no idea whether this is the case, but I think a lot of women just don't want to tell a man, "Hey, I'd date you, but you're ugly." Take a look at yourself. Could you lose weight, be more in shape, dress better, get a haircut, whatever? Do so. Men are not the only folks who make judgments based on appearance, humans are visual creatures.
posted by dagnyscott at 9:12 PM on July 4, 2006
Being "too nice" can easily represent that you're beneath her in social stature, and hence not worthy of her affection. Maintain the mindset that YOU are the prize, not her. You can and should treat her sweet and gentlemanly, but you CAN NOT EVER grovel or project that you're a lowly peon who's just lucky to be enjoying her presence.
Also, the touchy-feely thing is important, but you have to start small touches early or risk coming off all creepy when you go in for a kiss after not touching more than that introductory handshake 2 hours ago. I, for one, almost always start off a date with a brief-but-friendly hug, but then I generally greet all my good friends that way. That's another thing -- you can be touchy-feely, but it has to be natural (you're just a warm friendly person who treats all his friends that way) or you'll come off as creepy, high-pressure guy who just wants to get in her pants. Start small early, and build on it.
Re: maybe "you're just not attractive", we guys are lucky in that a lot of our attraction is generated via our confidence and attitude -- i.e., social status -- and not our physical appearance, per se. (I mean, would Donald Trump and Hugh Hefner be attractive to so many women if they were homeless?) Still, your appearance is a pretty easy thing to tweak: lose/gain 10 pounds, buy nicer/better-fitting threads (note to self..), improve your body language, etc. -- but the real win comes from the confidence you gain. Generally speaking, women (especially attractive women) want confident, "alpha" males.
posted by LordSludge at 9:11 AM on July 5, 2006
Also, the touchy-feely thing is important, but you have to start small touches early or risk coming off all creepy when you go in for a kiss after not touching more than that introductory handshake 2 hours ago. I, for one, almost always start off a date with a brief-but-friendly hug, but then I generally greet all my good friends that way. That's another thing -- you can be touchy-feely, but it has to be natural (you're just a warm friendly person who treats all his friends that way) or you'll come off as creepy, high-pressure guy who just wants to get in her pants. Start small early, and build on it.
Re: maybe "you're just not attractive", we guys are lucky in that a lot of our attraction is generated via our confidence and attitude -- i.e., social status -- and not our physical appearance, per se. (I mean, would Donald Trump and Hugh Hefner be attractive to so many women if they were homeless?) Still, your appearance is a pretty easy thing to tweak: lose/gain 10 pounds, buy nicer/better-fitting threads (note to self..), improve your body language, etc. -- but the real win comes from the confidence you gain. Generally speaking, women (especially attractive women) want confident, "alpha" males.
posted by LordSludge at 9:11 AM on July 5, 2006
cocky and funny
rileyray, you should give credit where credit is due. Curious about this dating system my friend was telling me about, I signed up for David DeAngelo's e-mail list, too.
Did you just cut-and-paste your answer from DeAngelo's site?
posted by jayder at 11:26 AM on July 5, 2006
rileyray, you should give credit where credit is due. Curious about this dating system my friend was telling me about, I signed up for David DeAngelo's e-mail list, too.
Did you just cut-and-paste your answer from DeAngelo's site?
posted by jayder at 11:26 AM on July 5, 2006
what about your looks? I mean. seriously. this is not meant to be offensive, and since I can't see you, you shouldn't take it that way, but:
if everything you say is true, you're either coming off as too nice and too interested, or you're just plain ugly.
posted by sunshinesky at 12:16 AM on July 6, 2006
if everything you say is true, you're either coming off as too nice and too interested, or you're just plain ugly.
posted by sunshinesky at 12:16 AM on July 6, 2006
I have to repeat what was said about - looks can really be secondary for men. Obviously I can't speak for all women, but handsomeness has always been pretty low on my list. Wit, passion, kindness and confidence are all you need.
That said, hygene is important. It might not matter if you look like a troll, but dandruff-caked shoulders, for example, will turn most any woman off.
Also, what movilla said above: if you find her interesting, make sure you show her that you do. I went out with a terrific guy - scary smart, funny as hell, had seen the world and done cool things in it - but he spent the whole date talking about himself and never asked me a single question. I felt like I wasn't there. Maybe he just wasn't interested in me at all, but his violation of basic common courtesy suggests that's how he deals with everyone - and it was a terrible turnoff. Don't fall into that trap, which I think might be something people do unwittingly out of nervousness.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:28 AM on July 6, 2006
That said, hygene is important. It might not matter if you look like a troll, but dandruff-caked shoulders, for example, will turn most any woman off.
Also, what movilla said above: if you find her interesting, make sure you show her that you do. I went out with a terrific guy - scary smart, funny as hell, had seen the world and done cool things in it - but he spent the whole date talking about himself and never asked me a single question. I felt like I wasn't there. Maybe he just wasn't interested in me at all, but his violation of basic common courtesy suggests that's how he deals with everyone - and it was a terrible turnoff. Don't fall into that trap, which I think might be something people do unwittingly out of nervousness.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:28 AM on July 6, 2006
To the happily coupled girls who take issue with the cocky and funny approach, sorry, but it works when it's employed right. And lot of times it works when it's employed poorly. Nothing YOU'VE tried has worked. I'd try it with a girl you're not really into as a test. If it works, great. If not, nothing really lost.
As far as credit, yes it does come from David DeAngelo. I should have credited him. But his take is really very vague. I was trying to give real specifics.
For more info, rent, The Tao of Steve. Also good advice there.
posted by rileyray3000 at 5:39 PM on July 6, 2006
As far as credit, yes it does come from David DeAngelo. I should have credited him. But his take is really very vague. I was trying to give real specifics.
For more info, rent, The Tao of Steve. Also good advice there.
posted by rileyray3000 at 5:39 PM on July 6, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
Dating is a delicate dance where you have to balance making a good impression with objectively assessing whether the other person is suitable for you. And the other person has to be made aware (kindly and diplomatically) that she isn't to take you for granted. The fact is that, for both parties, dating is a game worth winning only if there's something to lose.
So be kind. Be principled. Be fair and considerate. But do not prostitute yourself for the other person, and reward her with affection only if you honestly feel she deserves it.
E.g. rather than at the end of the first date, kiss the woman as soon as you sense that she wants you to and as soon as you think she's worth kissing (which isn't always the case). She, being a woman, will intuitively know that you are trying to make up your mind about her.
If you think this is emotional manipulation, I disagree. Rather, you are placing your dignity (and hers) above other considerations by "making moves" only if you think they are worth making. Besides, she's doing the same to you.
And once she legitimately wins your affections (and you win hers), THEN you can get down to the nitty gritty work that a relationship is, like taking the trash out and putting the toilet seat down.
posted by randomstriker at 2:50 AM on July 4, 2006