Buying a country place
November 18, 2024 8:25 AM Subscribe
Asking for a friend: "My partner grew up with a "country place" in his family -- a cabin with some land in the mountains that their family would go to relax. We were looking for a place like this and instead found a very unique property. We're wondering if it's a good idea to buy it."
He said: I'd love to hear your opinions. What problems are we likely to have with this particular place? What should we be asking ourselves? We have fallen in love with this place, but are a bit scared about what we are getting ourselves into.
This place isn't a cabin -- it's an entire wilderness camp. Several acres next to a national forest, a couple of huge buildings with 12 bedrooms, a dining hall, a meeting room, etc. (20,000 sq ft in total) that used to be a youth hostel/summer camp. We had it inspected and it is structurally sound although, it's a bit run-down and could use some paint. Roof is a few years old.
Advantages:
- great location, walkable to a nice town, but feels wild because of the forest
- great price, less than the cost of a regular house (we assume because it's such a strange property in a not very populated place). we can afford it and it's less than we had budgeted to spend.
- super sturdy concrete construction, new roof, etc.
- fantastic mountain air, a natural spring nearby, etc.
- we are excited about the possibility of holding themed events / small conferences / writers retreats / wellness retreats / youth summer camps there with all of the space (it's zoned commercial so could be used for business)
- direct owner sale, they are very friendly and have offered to help us set up.
- great location in case of another pandemic / zombies / the end of the world
Disadvantages:
- it's huge, so assume maintenance, keeping it stocked, etc. will be a hassle and expensive
- we don't want to live there full-time but don't want it to fall apart
- not sure if we want to take on a huge project
- it's about six hours away from our home in the city
It's a unique place and we already love it. The owner has been very flexible and allowed us to inspect and offer with only a small deposit. Now we are questioning themselves. Should we get it? What will go wrong?
He said: I'd love to hear your opinions. What problems are we likely to have with this particular place? What should we be asking ourselves? We have fallen in love with this place, but are a bit scared about what we are getting ourselves into.
This place isn't a cabin -- it's an entire wilderness camp. Several acres next to a national forest, a couple of huge buildings with 12 bedrooms, a dining hall, a meeting room, etc. (20,000 sq ft in total) that used to be a youth hostel/summer camp. We had it inspected and it is structurally sound although, it's a bit run-down and could use some paint. Roof is a few years old.
Advantages:
- great location, walkable to a nice town, but feels wild because of the forest
- great price, less than the cost of a regular house (we assume because it's such a strange property in a not very populated place). we can afford it and it's less than we had budgeted to spend.
- super sturdy concrete construction, new roof, etc.
- fantastic mountain air, a natural spring nearby, etc.
- we are excited about the possibility of holding themed events / small conferences / writers retreats / wellness retreats / youth summer camps there with all of the space (it's zoned commercial so could be used for business)
- direct owner sale, they are very friendly and have offered to help us set up.
- great location in case of another pandemic / zombies / the end of the world
Disadvantages:
- it's huge, so assume maintenance, keeping it stocked, etc. will be a hassle and expensive
- we don't want to live there full-time but don't want it to fall apart
- not sure if we want to take on a huge project
- it's about six hours away from our home in the city
It's a unique place and we already love it. The owner has been very flexible and allowed us to inspect and offer with only a small deposit. Now we are questioning themselves. Should we get it? What will go wrong?
We have a tiny summer cabin and we have to pay for utilities year round. It adds up. Insuring it is expensive, but it’s up in fire country.
Also consider the drive. A twelve-hour round trip can feel interminably long after the novelty wears off. Our little place is about 80 minutes away, so impromptu visits are easy — more of a lark than an expedition.
Do you have to furnish the place?
posted by mochapickle at 8:37 AM on November 18 [3 favorites]
Also consider the drive. A twelve-hour round trip can feel interminably long after the novelty wears off. Our little place is about 80 minutes away, so impromptu visits are easy — more of a lark than an expedition.
Do you have to furnish the place?
posted by mochapickle at 8:37 AM on November 18 [3 favorites]
> not sure if we want to take on a huge project
It will definitely be a huge project. That is great news about the roof but I'd make sure you read the inspection report carefully to see what you might be missing.
Maintaining a house that you don't live in is a challenge, so you'd probably need to have/employ a caretaker of some kind for a place that big if you're not going to be there full time.
For a place that big, do you have a tax situation that might be a problem? You don't say where you are (and don't have to) but make sure you understand the full costs of owning the property. This would include taxes but also things like heating the place if you're in an area where it freezes, and plowing and giving access to the place likewise. Think about the water situation (is there a well, town water?) and how it gets maintained and what sort of shape it's in. If you're not in a place where there is snow, are you in a place where there are wildfires?
Large places are often cheaper to buy than smaller places (by the square foot) because they are a pain to manage. The areas I would think on include
- heating/cooling
- water
- electricity and robustness of same
- other infrastructure that might need maintenance (generator? what happens when the power goes out?)
- taxes
- neighbors, local vibe. An empty place nearby to a town with bored kids can be harder to maintain than a place in the ass end of nowhere
Those are my top things to think about. I bought a large house last year, not even a giant camp and it's been a lot of work and I live here year round.
posted by jessamyn at 8:42 AM on November 18 [6 favorites]
It will definitely be a huge project. That is great news about the roof but I'd make sure you read the inspection report carefully to see what you might be missing.
Maintaining a house that you don't live in is a challenge, so you'd probably need to have/employ a caretaker of some kind for a place that big if you're not going to be there full time.
For a place that big, do you have a tax situation that might be a problem? You don't say where you are (and don't have to) but make sure you understand the full costs of owning the property. This would include taxes but also things like heating the place if you're in an area where it freezes, and plowing and giving access to the place likewise. Think about the water situation (is there a well, town water?) and how it gets maintained and what sort of shape it's in. If you're not in a place where there is snow, are you in a place where there are wildfires?
Large places are often cheaper to buy than smaller places (by the square foot) because they are a pain to manage. The areas I would think on include
- heating/cooling
- water
- electricity and robustness of same
- other infrastructure that might need maintenance (generator? what happens when the power goes out?)
- taxes
- neighbors, local vibe. An empty place nearby to a town with bored kids can be harder to maintain than a place in the ass end of nowhere
Those are my top things to think about. I bought a large house last year, not even a giant camp and it's been a lot of work and I live here year round.
posted by jessamyn at 8:42 AM on November 18 [6 favorites]
My main thought is that purchasing a place is one thing, but maintaining a giant commercial camp is another. Can friend drop $100k on a plumbing problem, or close off buildings (and watch them deteriorate) while waiting to come up with funding? Can they live with a level of 'shabbiness' or do they have high expectations?
What are the maintenance costs, like water bill, electric bill, property tax, etc? Is all that affordable?
As a comparison, you can generally 'buy' a 10+ story office building for a couple of million dollars, but like what do you do once you get it?
6 hours is a bit far too, but if you switch biomes (as my kids would say) it's probably fine and something you would feel ok doing. If it's the same as yours climate wise, that drive is gonna suck.
Is your friend interested and able to commercialize it?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:43 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
What are the maintenance costs, like water bill, electric bill, property tax, etc? Is all that affordable?
As a comparison, you can generally 'buy' a 10+ story office building for a couple of million dollars, but like what do you do once you get it?
6 hours is a bit far too, but if you switch biomes (as my kids would say) it's probably fine and something you would feel ok doing. If it's the same as yours climate wise, that drive is gonna suck.
Is your friend interested and able to commercialize it?
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:43 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
I'd consider how often and how long at a time you'd be up there. That six hour drive is a long drive that I wouldn't want to do very often. It pretty much rules out a weekend trip. With all that land and buildings, you almost need to have a part-time caretaker. At least someone to go up there weekly and someone you can call on in an emergency (someone that's closer to the property than you being six hours away).
If there's not a smaller cabin to stay in, will it feel too big when you're up there with the family? To me, a country retreat is a little cozy and this feels like the opposite.
posted by hydra77 at 8:44 AM on November 18 [6 favorites]
If there's not a smaller cabin to stay in, will it feel too big when you're up there with the family? To me, a country retreat is a little cozy and this feels like the opposite.
posted by hydra77 at 8:44 AM on November 18 [6 favorites]
nth-ing that the six hour drive is a huge negative that may outweigh nearly all else.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 AM on November 18 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 AM on November 18 [2 favorites]
My spouse and I have been window shopping for a retreat centre and educating ourselves so here’s some of what I would be asking:
Zoning and bylaws. Are you even allowed to live there? Zoning for commercial's is not always the same as for hospitality. Can you get a license for business (some camps, and we’ve looked at them, are grandfathered in only as non-profit or religious-run. This is highly bylaw specific as well as land zoning here.) other stuff example: I wanted to buy a small hotel that was going cheap and didn’t. By coincidence someone I know did. It turned out there were two hotels in town, one owned by the mayor’s family. The town had a 45% room tax…which they waived for one hotel and not the other. The guy that bought it is converting it to apartments.
Insurance costs are key. Sometimes you just can’t get it (or it’s hugely expensive) and so you can’t have a mortgage on it or conduct business. We looked at a church property and they would not put fire insurance on it if someone wasn’t living on site in the parsonage. (In this case we didn’t need one to buy it, this was 7 years ago, but we might have needed to borrow to renovate. Too much risk for us.)
Sewer, water, utilities, wifi/starlink, etc.
Agreed on the 6 hr drive.
Having said all that I wish I had bought on of the Girl Guide camps when they all went up for sale. Good luck!
posted by warriorqueen at 9:16 AM on November 18 [9 favorites]
Zoning and bylaws. Are you even allowed to live there? Zoning for commercial's is not always the same as for hospitality. Can you get a license for business (some camps, and we’ve looked at them, are grandfathered in only as non-profit or religious-run. This is highly bylaw specific as well as land zoning here.) other stuff example: I wanted to buy a small hotel that was going cheap and didn’t. By coincidence someone I know did. It turned out there were two hotels in town, one owned by the mayor’s family. The town had a 45% room tax…which they waived for one hotel and not the other. The guy that bought it is converting it to apartments.
Insurance costs are key. Sometimes you just can’t get it (or it’s hugely expensive) and so you can’t have a mortgage on it or conduct business. We looked at a church property and they would not put fire insurance on it if someone wasn’t living on site in the parsonage. (In this case we didn’t need one to buy it, this was 7 years ago, but we might have needed to borrow to renovate. Too much risk for us.)
Sewer, water, utilities, wifi/starlink, etc.
Agreed on the 6 hr drive.
Having said all that I wish I had bought on of the Girl Guide camps when they all went up for sale. Good luck!
posted by warriorqueen at 9:16 AM on November 18 [9 favorites]
Are they sure they understand the deed they will be buying? The low price and the location makes me wonder if they won't actually own the land (buying it "freehold") but rather it's a long term lease. These are very common in some countries but can be rare and surprising in the US.
posted by muddgirl at 9:23 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 9:23 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
My first question is have they determined how those 12 bedrooms are situated? Because with the description, I'm assuming this means twelve small individual cabins not attached to any plumbing or common areas. Which isn't what I'd want for a country home.
And yeah, 6hrs is too long for a weekend getaway, so unless your friends WFH or have some other flexible work arrangement, this doesn't seem practical.
posted by coffeecat at 9:31 AM on November 18
And yeah, 6hrs is too long for a weekend getaway, so unless your friends WFH or have some other flexible work arrangement, this doesn't seem practical.
posted by coffeecat at 9:31 AM on November 18
Is it a 6-hour drive, or can part of the 6-hour distance be covered by flying to a nearby airport or taking an Amtrak train or similar? How close is the property to a big city with a city airport? Those details would make a difference in how often it would make sense to travel there, as well as the feasibility of hosting events there that folks from other areas might eventually be inclined to attend. I know someone who owns a camp, whose job is a camp director, and he spends life on the road and at camp and doesn't see his wife very much in the warmer months.
It doesn't actually sound like your friend is trying to be a full-time camp director, but the investment of time in going back and forth just to initially get things in order could be significant if there aren't any shortcuts to that. I was exhausted just driving like half an hour back and forth every weekend while I worked on clearing out and fixing up one parent's house. The drive was much shorter than your friend's, but it took a lot more weekends than expected, and I was still really tired of it by the end. Make sure they make a really accurate assessment of what work would need to be done there and what kind of time that would take them, including travel.
Maintenance stuff that isn't mentioned yet: How do the roads/paths/driveways on and around the property fare in various seasons? What maintenance is required of those surfaces? Someone else mentioned Wi-Fi/Starlink as a line item—just to expand on that, do any companies offer internet service in the area of the property? Does the property already have internet service? How is cell coverage in the area? These can become basic safety issues, as well as questions that affect the feasibility of hosting events and camps there. Also, what is the septic situation, and what companies in the area have previously or could in the future handle that? Are any septic tanks on the property full or in need of maintenance? What is the water/sewer situation?
If things go wrong on the property, are there places they could stay in the nearby town? What is the response time to the property for emergency services?
Like others have said, I think your friend should investigate a caretaker who could live on the property or who is nearby enough that insurance wouldn't balk.
If all those things are in order and they have any way to shortcut the travel situation, this could be a cool opportunity! But I would definitely do my best not to underestimate the amount of work that could be required here.
posted by limeonaire at 9:42 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
It doesn't actually sound like your friend is trying to be a full-time camp director, but the investment of time in going back and forth just to initially get things in order could be significant if there aren't any shortcuts to that. I was exhausted just driving like half an hour back and forth every weekend while I worked on clearing out and fixing up one parent's house. The drive was much shorter than your friend's, but it took a lot more weekends than expected, and I was still really tired of it by the end. Make sure they make a really accurate assessment of what work would need to be done there and what kind of time that would take them, including travel.
Maintenance stuff that isn't mentioned yet: How do the roads/paths/driveways on and around the property fare in various seasons? What maintenance is required of those surfaces? Someone else mentioned Wi-Fi/Starlink as a line item—just to expand on that, do any companies offer internet service in the area of the property? Does the property already have internet service? How is cell coverage in the area? These can become basic safety issues, as well as questions that affect the feasibility of hosting events and camps there. Also, what is the septic situation, and what companies in the area have previously or could in the future handle that? Are any septic tanks on the property full or in need of maintenance? What is the water/sewer situation?
If things go wrong on the property, are there places they could stay in the nearby town? What is the response time to the property for emergency services?
Like others have said, I think your friend should investigate a caretaker who could live on the property or who is nearby enough that insurance wouldn't balk.
If all those things are in order and they have any way to shortcut the travel situation, this could be a cool opportunity! But I would definitely do my best not to underestimate the amount of work that could be required here.
posted by limeonaire at 9:42 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
I didn't do this, but I did something very similar: I inherited our run down family farm about ten years ago. The buildings for humans are not as huge, but I think the maintenance costs and issues are similar to your friends' prospect, because I have stables and barns that need maintenance, if not heating. And I had many of the same dreams. I also have a 5.5 - 6 hour drive up there.
To begin with, I spent a large sum making the ground floor of the ancient main house nice to live in and "future-proofed" for my retirement, and improving a small apartment that had been my holiday home since the 1990s as a guest house. I also installed geothermal heating and solar panels with a battery for storage. I earned some money from some necessary culling of the woodland (my grandparents gave up on that in about 1993), but I still need to spend some ressources, either my own time or hired gardeners, to remake the gardens.
I haven't regretted one bit, though I would have been very much richer now if I had sold it. And I don't mind the drive -- actually I'm surprised that so many Americans are worried about that since I feel you are much more used to long distances than we are in Europe. But this is the place I call home, that has been my anchor through my entire turbulent life. For someone who doesn't have this type of connection, it might be different.
I have not yet succeeded in building a business up there, even with lots of friends encouraging me. However, I'm pretty sure it can be done: several of those friends are doing well with their similar situations. My closest neighbor has even quit her former job to be full time at the property, doing her stuff. Her husband is still working at his old job though, and traveling quite a bit back and forth.
Another couple have successfully built a seasonal restaurant and an artspace which has become very popular among locals and tourists alike. I could go on.
I don't feel taxes are a big issue. I own a small holiday cottage in the area that I rent out, and I pay more in taxes for that, so much that I am selling it now. As your friends have already discovered, redundant rural property is not as much worth as even smallish second homes. You can also get some tax reductions for maintenance of commercial buildings in some areas, I got it for the energy renovation. But it is obviously something that needs to be researched.
Heating will be a huge issue. This is why my first decision was to do an energy renovation, which was not only about the heat pump and solar panels, but also about insulating the buildings. Cooling might be an issue too, I have made a very small adjustment to the layout that gives me natural cooling during the warm months through cross ventilation, though this year we had an insane amount of mosquitoes that we have never had before, so now I have to add screens to all openings. And I guess that is one of the issues with big old buildings: there is always something to be done, and it's always big.
Another example: I've closed off the top floors of both houses because I don't need the space right now. But that means things happen that I don't notice, there is a birds nest in the attic of one house (my home before the 90's) and mice in both attics, and these vermin bite into cables and shit everywhere. So in the end I'll have to reintegrate the spaces and maintain them as livable spaces so they don't become the source of larger problems.
One of my problems with this is that I am a single person with mental health issues, and I was when I started out. A good friend is in a similar situation, and he is as slow as me. But we both make progress every year, and we help each other out. It's important to make connections and friendships, otherwise it's impossible to manage, specially if they don't intend to stay there year round. You can and must hire someone for jobs, but it's not the same. Recently a storm caused a few trees to fall and block my driveway. It was my friend, not someone I paid who came and helped me out within the hour. He asked if he could have the firewood and of course I said yes, but that wasn't why he did it.
I think even a couple that is younger than I am and are healthy needs to make those local connections. You may need the local mechanic to come out to your house if the car breaks down, or the electrician to come out on a Sunday.
A good idea would be to hire an architect to evaluate the property and make sketches for various scenarios. It's important to make them understand that all options are open. Maybe tear down half the buildings, maybe all. Maybe take the roof off of a building and use the walls as the frame for a walled garden and greenhouse (this was an idea someone gave me for free and it's still on the board). Make a mushroom farm in a barn. But also have them make realistic estimates of the costs not only of construction, but also of maintenance.
Good luck with the decision-making.
posted by mumimor at 9:43 AM on November 18 [7 favorites]
To begin with, I spent a large sum making the ground floor of the ancient main house nice to live in and "future-proofed" for my retirement, and improving a small apartment that had been my holiday home since the 1990s as a guest house. I also installed geothermal heating and solar panels with a battery for storage. I earned some money from some necessary culling of the woodland (my grandparents gave up on that in about 1993), but I still need to spend some ressources, either my own time or hired gardeners, to remake the gardens.
I haven't regretted one bit, though I would have been very much richer now if I had sold it. And I don't mind the drive -- actually I'm surprised that so many Americans are worried about that since I feel you are much more used to long distances than we are in Europe. But this is the place I call home, that has been my anchor through my entire turbulent life. For someone who doesn't have this type of connection, it might be different.
I have not yet succeeded in building a business up there, even with lots of friends encouraging me. However, I'm pretty sure it can be done: several of those friends are doing well with their similar situations. My closest neighbor has even quit her former job to be full time at the property, doing her stuff. Her husband is still working at his old job though, and traveling quite a bit back and forth.
Another couple have successfully built a seasonal restaurant and an artspace which has become very popular among locals and tourists alike. I could go on.
I don't feel taxes are a big issue. I own a small holiday cottage in the area that I rent out, and I pay more in taxes for that, so much that I am selling it now. As your friends have already discovered, redundant rural property is not as much worth as even smallish second homes. You can also get some tax reductions for maintenance of commercial buildings in some areas, I got it for the energy renovation. But it is obviously something that needs to be researched.
Heating will be a huge issue. This is why my first decision was to do an energy renovation, which was not only about the heat pump and solar panels, but also about insulating the buildings. Cooling might be an issue too, I have made a very small adjustment to the layout that gives me natural cooling during the warm months through cross ventilation, though this year we had an insane amount of mosquitoes that we have never had before, so now I have to add screens to all openings. And I guess that is one of the issues with big old buildings: there is always something to be done, and it's always big.
Another example: I've closed off the top floors of both houses because I don't need the space right now. But that means things happen that I don't notice, there is a birds nest in the attic of one house (my home before the 90's) and mice in both attics, and these vermin bite into cables and shit everywhere. So in the end I'll have to reintegrate the spaces and maintain them as livable spaces so they don't become the source of larger problems.
One of my problems with this is that I am a single person with mental health issues, and I was when I started out. A good friend is in a similar situation, and he is as slow as me. But we both make progress every year, and we help each other out. It's important to make connections and friendships, otherwise it's impossible to manage, specially if they don't intend to stay there year round. You can and must hire someone for jobs, but it's not the same. Recently a storm caused a few trees to fall and block my driveway. It was my friend, not someone I paid who came and helped me out within the hour. He asked if he could have the firewood and of course I said yes, but that wasn't why he did it.
I think even a couple that is younger than I am and are healthy needs to make those local connections. You may need the local mechanic to come out to your house if the car breaks down, or the electrician to come out on a Sunday.
A good idea would be to hire an architect to evaluate the property and make sketches for various scenarios. It's important to make them understand that all options are open. Maybe tear down half the buildings, maybe all. Maybe take the roof off of a building and use the walls as the frame for a walled garden and greenhouse (this was an idea someone gave me for free and it's still on the board). Make a mushroom farm in a barn. But also have them make realistic estimates of the costs not only of construction, but also of maintenance.
Good luck with the decision-making.
posted by mumimor at 9:43 AM on November 18 [7 favorites]
Can't speak to the other stuff, but I will say that as someone who grew up in an area where there are literally dozens of summer camps, they're gonna need a caretaker full stop. Not having a caretaker on site means you come back in the spring (maybe with a chainsaw due to trees being down on the road in) to find all kinds of issues and unwanted guests (animal guests and occasionally human guests). At least up here pretty much every property of this size will have a winter caretaker.
posted by anastasiav at 10:02 AM on November 18 [7 favorites]
posted by anastasiav at 10:02 AM on November 18 [7 favorites]
Golly, this was us 30 years ago. We sold up in England to look for "an old farm-house back home in Ireland with out-buildings and 10 acres to run as an independent hostel". In a depressed market, we could have bought an old convent with 12 bedrooms; or a working mill with 20,000 sq.ft. of floors; or . . . or. . . It didn't pan out in quite that way and we took on a beat-up farm with 2½ bedrooms, out-buildings and 16 acres and getting that warm&tight blew all our money. No regrets. It's much easier to heat 1,000 sq.ft than 20,000!
great location, walkable to a nice town, but feels wild because of the forest
at the same time our friends with a similar outlook bought a similar homestead "walkable to a nice town" but then the Celtic Tiger built estates and apartments from the railway station to beyond their rural nook.
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:20 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
great location, walkable to a nice town, but feels wild because of the forest
at the same time our friends with a similar outlook bought a similar homestead "walkable to a nice town" but then the Celtic Tiger built estates and apartments from the railway station to beyond their rural nook.
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:20 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
I used to live in a rural area, and then I also moved to the city and lived about 5.5 hours away from the house in the rural area. I agree with folks who are saying that six hours is too far for a weekend. We hardly ever went for a weekend. A long weekend, maybe.
For comparison, I grew up in a winterized house that had been my grandparents' "camp" house, a summer season place. It was maybe 5-10 miles from the city they lived in, and they used it all the time.
If your friends are serious, here's what I would urge them to do:
Find a contractor they can trust -- my inclination says not to use a contractor in that town who already knows the property, but I am not sure why -- and have that contractor take a look and give them a sense of what they might want and need to do and the cost. So not just an inspection, but have it looked at by someone who is actually in the trades doing work.
Consider who would live there rear round. It's not good for places not to be lived. If a water line breaks or a tree falls on a roof, you need someone there who knows what's happening and can alert you. Perhaps you can do a trade of housing for property management, but that depends on many factors.
I get that this sounds lovely, but it doesn't sound like what you are were looking for, so take some time to reflect on that. It also sounds like a lot of work, and a great/terrible way to make your leisure time into work.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:55 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
For comparison, I grew up in a winterized house that had been my grandparents' "camp" house, a summer season place. It was maybe 5-10 miles from the city they lived in, and they used it all the time.
If your friends are serious, here's what I would urge them to do:
Find a contractor they can trust -- my inclination says not to use a contractor in that town who already knows the property, but I am not sure why -- and have that contractor take a look and give them a sense of what they might want and need to do and the cost. So not just an inspection, but have it looked at by someone who is actually in the trades doing work.
Consider who would live there rear round. It's not good for places not to be lived. If a water line breaks or a tree falls on a roof, you need someone there who knows what's happening and can alert you. Perhaps you can do a trade of housing for property management, but that depends on many factors.
I get that this sounds lovely, but it doesn't sound like what you are were looking for, so take some time to reflect on that. It also sounds like a lot of work, and a great/terrible way to make your leisure time into work.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:55 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
I purchased a 2nd home 4 hours away that had two buildings and a large boathouse on the property. It was in the Adirondack mountains (NY). 4 hours was a little too long for a 3 day weekend, but not so far as to make us dread the trip.
We paid a neighbor to watch the place when we were not there. Winters, temps dropped to as low as -20F. Cold enough to drive my truck on the lake. We did use it year round so the driveway needed to be plowed regularly even if we were not there because the snow would accumulate such that a truck with a plow on the front could not do it lest it burn out its engine. One winter we hired a front end loader to move the snow off the driveway onto the edge of the lake. We heated it to around 52-55 when we were not there. Even at those low temps, the cost added up. We ended up buying a "gator" to help with property maintenance and for the kids having some fun. Pipes freeze. Water damage afterwards can get excessive and expensive. Saving money by not having a neighbor or a caretaker look in on the place almost daily can end up costing you way more in the long run.
Not sure how countrified your friend's property is, but things like taking out the garbage became issues because of wild animals. My (ex)wife was too tired to clean out the back seat where the kids had stopped for fast food on the way up and naturally fries and bits of food were everywhere. Bears smell that and tried to get in. Very expensive scratches and small dents on the car. We had to take the garbage to the dump, but leave it inside until we literally were driving to the dump. Have your friend understand how government services work. Commercial property may mean you pay for your own garbage pickup or disposal.
Things like the grocery store were literally an hour away. You cannot run to the store for forgotten eggs. When you have little kids, planning is essential. Even UPS or FedEx would take an extra day or more to deliver.
Hospital was over an hour away. Ambulance was run out of the local fire department, but even with sirens blaring it would take over an hour to get to the nearest hospital that had an emergency department equipped to handle trauma. Having little kids, we had to have plans for what to do in various emergency situations. Especially since there was not cell service for miles around. At one point, I had to drive a few miles to the local bar, contact the fire chief whose wife worked at the bar who then radio'd to the ambulance. Everything turned out well, but you never know.
Mostly for convenience sake, we had duplicates of things like toilettries, clothes, gear so that we would not have to haul up stuff all the time. My kids learned they had a home wardrobe and a lake wardrobe. It made for bugging out much easier.
Who regluates what they can do to their property? I lived within the Adirondack Park District and they were very restrictive in what they would approve. Even things like repairing the boathouse back to its original state made us go through months of submitting plans (hiring architects and lawyers) and lots of inspections of the work in progress.
We loved the property and loved going up there year round, but it wasn't just showing up, turning on the lights and crack a beer relaxing. Small costs add up to bigger costs. Time spent managing it was usually at inconvenient times.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:34 AM on November 18 [2 favorites]
We paid a neighbor to watch the place when we were not there. Winters, temps dropped to as low as -20F. Cold enough to drive my truck on the lake. We did use it year round so the driveway needed to be plowed regularly even if we were not there because the snow would accumulate such that a truck with a plow on the front could not do it lest it burn out its engine. One winter we hired a front end loader to move the snow off the driveway onto the edge of the lake. We heated it to around 52-55 when we were not there. Even at those low temps, the cost added up. We ended up buying a "gator" to help with property maintenance and for the kids having some fun. Pipes freeze. Water damage afterwards can get excessive and expensive. Saving money by not having a neighbor or a caretaker look in on the place almost daily can end up costing you way more in the long run.
Not sure how countrified your friend's property is, but things like taking out the garbage became issues because of wild animals. My (ex)wife was too tired to clean out the back seat where the kids had stopped for fast food on the way up and naturally fries and bits of food were everywhere. Bears smell that and tried to get in. Very expensive scratches and small dents on the car. We had to take the garbage to the dump, but leave it inside until we literally were driving to the dump. Have your friend understand how government services work. Commercial property may mean you pay for your own garbage pickup or disposal.
Things like the grocery store were literally an hour away. You cannot run to the store for forgotten eggs. When you have little kids, planning is essential. Even UPS or FedEx would take an extra day or more to deliver.
Hospital was over an hour away. Ambulance was run out of the local fire department, but even with sirens blaring it would take over an hour to get to the nearest hospital that had an emergency department equipped to handle trauma. Having little kids, we had to have plans for what to do in various emergency situations. Especially since there was not cell service for miles around. At one point, I had to drive a few miles to the local bar, contact the fire chief whose wife worked at the bar who then radio'd to the ambulance. Everything turned out well, but you never know.
Mostly for convenience sake, we had duplicates of things like toilettries, clothes, gear so that we would not have to haul up stuff all the time. My kids learned they had a home wardrobe and a lake wardrobe. It made for bugging out much easier.
Who regluates what they can do to their property? I lived within the Adirondack Park District and they were very restrictive in what they would approve. Even things like repairing the boathouse back to its original state made us go through months of submitting plans (hiring architects and lawyers) and lots of inspections of the work in progress.
We loved the property and loved going up there year round, but it wasn't just showing up, turning on the lights and crack a beer relaxing. Small costs add up to bigger costs. Time spent managing it was usually at inconvenient times.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:34 AM on November 18 [2 favorites]
I went to a wedding at a summer camp-turned-venue and it was great, definitely a fun place for a retreat event for the right group of people (ie, non-hotel type people who don't mind roughing it). You might be able to do ok with AirBnb if the area is good.
But it seems like A LOT of work. I've managed tiny city residential rental properties in buildings where I actually live right upstairs, with all amenities managed by the city and located just minutes away from every possible shop, Home Depot, etc... and it's still a "part-time job" level of difficulty that eats up quite a bit of time every month, usually at unpredictable and inconvenient intervals. Imagining having to manage things like septic fields or water supply lines or winterizing docks or mowing huge fields etc etc ... just seems like a lot!
If you wanted to actually live there and make it your full time job, it could be super fun. If you don't want to live there, it seems like a terrible, impractical hassle.
Anyway if I did it, I'd want to have
- A local property manager I really trusted who'd have like 10-20 hours a week free to work on the place
- CPR and tons of first aid supplies on hand (epi-pens, life vac, heart shocker thing, etc)
- reeeally good insurance!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:46 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
But it seems like A LOT of work. I've managed tiny city residential rental properties in buildings where I actually live right upstairs, with all amenities managed by the city and located just minutes away from every possible shop, Home Depot, etc... and it's still a "part-time job" level of difficulty that eats up quite a bit of time every month, usually at unpredictable and inconvenient intervals. Imagining having to manage things like septic fields or water supply lines or winterizing docks or mowing huge fields etc etc ... just seems like a lot!
If you wanted to actually live there and make it your full time job, it could be super fun. If you don't want to live there, it seems like a terrible, impractical hassle.
Anyway if I did it, I'd want to have
- A local property manager I really trusted who'd have like 10-20 hours a week free to work on the place
- CPR and tons of first aid supplies on hand (epi-pens, life vac, heart shocker thing, etc)
- reeeally good insurance!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:46 AM on November 18 [1 favorite]
Yeah, sounds cool.
Sounds too far away.
I want to have a kennel. Can't find any property that would work. And things that people want to stay in require a lot more insurance and permits, and maintenance. If your friend isn't planning on making this their life? Very expensive. Still would be cool though.
posted by Windopaene at 12:48 PM on November 18
Sounds too far away.
I want to have a kennel. Can't find any property that would work. And things that people want to stay in require a lot more insurance and permits, and maintenance. If your friend isn't planning on making this their life? Very expensive. Still would be cool though.
posted by Windopaene at 12:48 PM on November 18
Another thing for your friend to think about: let's say they are planning to spend $200,000 on this property (seems low, honestly, but I'm trying to make a point), and they have to spend $30,000 to get it spiffy, never mind on-going expenses.
It might be worth thinking about what it mean to spend even half of that, say $115,000, on weekend trips out of town to someplace closer. You might find a community or rental you really like. Then, you don't have to deal with the hassle of maintaining that property.
Your friend might not have remembered the hassle their parents dealt with in maintaining the property they owned years ago.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:02 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
It might be worth thinking about what it mean to spend even half of that, say $115,000, on weekend trips out of town to someplace closer. You might find a community or rental you really like. Then, you don't have to deal with the hassle of maintaining that property.
Your friend might not have remembered the hassle their parents dealt with in maintaining the property they owned years ago.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:02 PM on November 18 [3 favorites]
Also the roads! If it’s somewhere with long winters, you may have limited access year round. In my state, mountain homes often have long private roads that need plowing, and that’s often expensive and unreliable.
They also need to haul out their own trash.
It’s hard to find people willing to do repairs.
If you need cell or internet, remote and rural places are sometimes off the grid. Starlink works, but it’s expensive.
posted by mochapickle at 1:06 PM on November 18
They also need to haul out their own trash.
It’s hard to find people willing to do repairs.
If you need cell or internet, remote and rural places are sometimes off the grid. Starlink works, but it’s expensive.
posted by mochapickle at 1:06 PM on November 18
Never thought about cell or internet. You are running a retreat/convention space, people are going to want their internet. I was at a hotel in the Central Valley of Cali recently, and the TVs all had "No Signal". People other than me were very pissed off about that. As was I. Was not fixed by checkout time the next morning.
posted by Windopaene at 2:59 PM on November 18
posted by Windopaene at 2:59 PM on November 18
Make sure your road access is NOT via any private road that’s shared with anyone else. Private roads can be a nightmare if you share them.
posted by aramaic at 3:18 PM on November 18 [2 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 3:18 PM on November 18 [2 favorites]
This doesn't have to be something they jump into immediately with both feet. A place like that definitely needs a live-in caretaker to keep an eye on things and stop human and animal squatters etc but, medium to longer-term, the property needs to be used or it will become a massive burden.
To start with (as well as getting a caretaker in place), could they lease the property to church or other groups that would make use of it? Such a lease wouldn't be worth a great deal, but enough to keep the property maintained and tidy. A property like this is going to appreciate, so potentially a reasonable investment if nothing else. At some point, they may wish to move in themselves and run it as more of a business, but that sounds like too much commitment right now. To begin with, a caretaker could take care of managing the property and they could probably find someone that would do so for the value of living there free. If it's within walking distance of town, it may well have a lot of value in the future if that town expands.
The six-hour trip is a definite negative, but there seem to be a lot of positives and some great potential for the future. Properties like this don't come up all that often.
posted by dg at 7:55 PM on November 18 [1 favorite]
To start with (as well as getting a caretaker in place), could they lease the property to church or other groups that would make use of it? Such a lease wouldn't be worth a great deal, but enough to keep the property maintained and tidy. A property like this is going to appreciate, so potentially a reasonable investment if nothing else. At some point, they may wish to move in themselves and run it as more of a business, but that sounds like too much commitment right now. To begin with, a caretaker could take care of managing the property and they could probably find someone that would do so for the value of living there free. If it's within walking distance of town, it may well have a lot of value in the future if that town expands.
The six-hour trip is a definite negative, but there seem to be a lot of positives and some great potential for the future. Properties like this don't come up all that often.
posted by dg at 7:55 PM on November 18 [1 favorite]
To add to the list of ongoing expenses: noxious weed management. If you don't keep on top of it, in most places the county will spray and send you the bill.
posted by Mournful Bagel Song at 7:19 AM on November 19
posted by Mournful Bagel Song at 7:19 AM on November 19
A property like this is going to appreciate, so potentially a reasonable investment if nothing else.
I'm not sure I agree with this, with the info given. It's a giant property for about equal to a suburban house, so an expectation of price appreciation is not guaranteed. It may appreciate, but that's the land, not the stuff currently on it, unless there is an increase in demand for camps in your area, or this particular one becomes more valuable, the natural spring is on the property, etc, or the area grows in desirability due to factors way outside your friends' local control.
Hiring a caretaker and all the other issues raised in the thread are also all expenses, which take the vast majority of any price appreciation, short of you running it for profit, or for taking a big loss but it's a place you love.
In short, assuming it's going to appreciate in value and everything work out fine is an assumption that needs to be verified.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:54 AM on November 19
I'm not sure I agree with this, with the info given. It's a giant property for about equal to a suburban house, so an expectation of price appreciation is not guaranteed. It may appreciate, but that's the land, not the stuff currently on it, unless there is an increase in demand for camps in your area, or this particular one becomes more valuable, the natural spring is on the property, etc, or the area grows in desirability due to factors way outside your friends' local control.
Hiring a caretaker and all the other issues raised in the thread are also all expenses, which take the vast majority of any price appreciation, short of you running it for profit, or for taking a big loss but it's a place you love.
In short, assuming it's going to appreciate in value and everything work out fine is an assumption that needs to be verified.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:54 AM on November 19
One more thing we discovered when we owned a house in the mountains - it can be hard to find workers do the repairs/improvements (even harder to find skilled, professional folks for each of the jobs) and even harder to get them to show up when they say they will. If you don't have a local caretaker then coordinating any work that needs to be done will be painful.
Also, from personal experience, keeping grassy areas mowed in the summer can take a couple of hours per week, even with a riding mover. If you don't then it will quickly get so overgrown that a regular mower won't be able to deal with it.
posted by metahawk at 2:17 PM on November 19
Also, from personal experience, keeping grassy areas mowed in the summer can take a couple of hours per week, even with a riding mover. If you don't then it will quickly get so overgrown that a regular mower won't be able to deal with it.
posted by metahawk at 2:17 PM on November 19
You = your friend
This could be a really great business opportunity if there were enough money/backing to get serious about it, but if you're looking to relax and enjoy time in nature, this isn't it.
All of the above considerations apply, but in addition, dealing with the public in a service position is exhausting! There are definite personalities and skills sets that are needed for this. And if you decide you want to be at one remove and hire professional people to take this on, you have another kind of PITA--acting as management. Again, personalities and skill sets to be good at the job.
Don't forget, one of the biggest expenses if you hire someone is going to be fair wages even if you don't have employees. I can think of three couples I know who have taken on this type of thing and eventually burnt out on it. All agreed it was fun for a time, but hard continuous work for minimum income. One couple did a dude ranch/kids summer riding camp long term with the help of their families and agree that it was a good way to raise kids, but they're not rolling in dough for retirement after selling out. One couple inherited a packing and outfitting business and loved it but got tired of the isolation. One couple did retreats for about five years and said hell no! Apparently, there isn't much silent Zen tranquility if you're the management.
I would be curious to know how long this has been on the market. If you do get into it aren't happy, how easy would it be to turn it over again?
Finally, in a perfect world you'd be able to buy it for the song you think it is, split off ten acres, turn around and sell the rest and build a lovely weekend retreat with that money. But you'd still have to drive six hours to get there, and ain't nobody got time to drive 12 hours to spend a weekend.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:36 PM on November 19
This could be a really great business opportunity if there were enough money/backing to get serious about it, but if you're looking to relax and enjoy time in nature, this isn't it.
All of the above considerations apply, but in addition, dealing with the public in a service position is exhausting! There are definite personalities and skills sets that are needed for this. And if you decide you want to be at one remove and hire professional people to take this on, you have another kind of PITA--acting as management. Again, personalities and skill sets to be good at the job.
Don't forget, one of the biggest expenses if you hire someone is going to be fair wages even if you don't have employees. I can think of three couples I know who have taken on this type of thing and eventually burnt out on it. All agreed it was fun for a time, but hard continuous work for minimum income. One couple did a dude ranch/kids summer riding camp long term with the help of their families and agree that it was a good way to raise kids, but they're not rolling in dough for retirement after selling out. One couple inherited a packing and outfitting business and loved it but got tired of the isolation. One couple did retreats for about five years and said hell no! Apparently, there isn't much silent Zen tranquility if you're the management.
I would be curious to know how long this has been on the market. If you do get into it aren't happy, how easy would it be to turn it over again?
Finally, in a perfect world you'd be able to buy it for the song you think it is, split off ten acres, turn around and sell the rest and build a lovely weekend retreat with that money. But you'd still have to drive six hours to get there, and ain't nobody got time to drive 12 hours to spend a weekend.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:36 PM on November 19
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> we are excited about the possibility of holding themed events / small conferences / writers retreats / wellness retreats / youth summer camps there with all of the space (it's zoned commercial so could be used for business)
Transforms the purchase from a vacation property to a business idea. Business ideas require hiring lawyers, accountants, etc., to ensure you understand legal requirements and are properly insured, credentialed, and staffed. Your friend may need to form a business organization to manage or own the property. I cannot understate how much of an administrative difference this bullet point will make, and I do not see any indication your friend is even considering that.
Your friend may make this purchase either way. But if there is a dream of using the property for conferences that is influencing their decision in any material way, your friend would be wise to consider how realistic that dream is given their other life constraints, time, and money.
posted by moosetracks at 8:35 AM on November 18 [14 favorites]