A family member refuses to accept money
November 12, 2024 12:23 AM Subscribe
An ailing relative (dementia etc.) resides in assisted living. The ailing relative has a sibling who lives in another state. The sibling insists on travelling down to accompany the ailing relative to doctor visits to keep tabs on the doctors. The trips cost gas, food, and lodging.
The sibling is not rich, yet insists on paying for these trips. The sibling's husband thinks the costs should be recompensed. The costs would not dent ailing relative's greater resources. I have Power of Attorney that gives me "full authority to handle [ailing relative's] personal and financial affairs". I think sibling is entitled.
The question is, how to convince the sibling that time and sweat are enough, but that sibling should take cash? Or that the professionals are capable of doing the job?
The sibling is not rich, yet insists on paying for these trips. The sibling's husband thinks the costs should be recompensed. The costs would not dent ailing relative's greater resources. I have Power of Attorney that gives me "full authority to handle [ailing relative's] personal and financial affairs". I think sibling is entitled.
The question is, how to convince the sibling that time and sweat are enough, but that sibling should take cash? Or that the professionals are capable of doing the job?
I agree with stormy teal that the relative may see this as a labor of love.
Are you allowed within your powers to set up a separate accounting line or fund for the relative and allocate "x" funds for each visit? The relative doesn't need to access this currently but it will be available at a later time. You can let them know that you're doing this regardless of whether they need it now, so they'll have time to gradually accept the idea.
posted by mightshould at 12:59 AM on November 12 [6 favorites]
Are you allowed within your powers to set up a separate accounting line or fund for the relative and allocate "x" funds for each visit? The relative doesn't need to access this currently but it will be available at a later time. You can let them know that you're doing this regardless of whether they need it now, so they'll have time to gradually accept the idea.
posted by mightshould at 12:59 AM on November 12 [6 favorites]
This may be a labour of love but the current set up also gives them a way out. If the visits ever start to feel too much to keep up, they can currently point to costs as a way to reduce their involvement again. By accepting the money, they would have to find other, perhaps less acceptable (to them/others), reasons.
Be that as it may, if you want to give them an option to reduce the cost they bear, could you get a 2nd credit or debit card issued to the sibling that is linked to the ailing person's accounts? They can use the card or not.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:31 AM on November 12 [9 favorites]
Be that as it may, if you want to give them an option to reduce the cost they bear, could you get a 2nd credit or debit card issued to the sibling that is linked to the ailing person's accounts? They can use the card or not.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:31 AM on November 12 [9 favorites]
If the sibling is very trustworthy and has an excellent history of financial responsibility, setting up a credit card for expenses related to the ailing relative is probably the least invasive way to do things. This has been the setup with some of my older relatives and it’s worked out well, but only because our family culturally is extremely used to talking about money, as a shared resource and individual savings. But I come from a very weird family. I’m not sure that this would be wise in your situation just because I feel like if it seemed feasible in your family you would have already done so.
You might be able to help them out with travel costs by setting up an airline specific card or account, if they always fly the same airline. You could perhaps explain it as being a great way for them to help generate points or miles or whatever airlines do these days.
If this sibling has children they might listen to an appeal about their inheritance. Could you perhaps set up an account for their kids in ailing relative’s name? If the money is there, financial savings for the younger generation is just about the most stress relieving thing you can do for a family member.
posted by Mizu at 2:33 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
You might be able to help them out with travel costs by setting up an airline specific card or account, if they always fly the same airline. You could perhaps explain it as being a great way for them to help generate points or miles or whatever airlines do these days.
If this sibling has children they might listen to an appeal about their inheritance. Could you perhaps set up an account for their kids in ailing relative’s name? If the money is there, financial savings for the younger generation is just about the most stress relieving thing you can do for a family member.
posted by Mizu at 2:33 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
Maybe they get these expenses added to any inheritance?
posted by k3ninho at 2:55 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
posted by k3ninho at 2:55 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
Presumably sibling is a mature adult who is capable of assessing their own needs in this situation. I don't think it's necessary for you to take action at this point.
It's especially ill-advised, in the absence of need or interest, to get a credit or debit card issued, what with all the data breaches lately.
I'm assuming you're all in the United States. If you feel that strongly about it, you could set up a Roth IRA for sibling or sibling's kids, pick a low-risk index fund or ETF to invest in, and make monthly contributions to it. Make sure the desired parties are named as beneficiaries on the IRA. That way, when ailing relative dies, the IRA will pass directly to the beneficiaries without going through probate.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 4:04 AM on November 12
It's especially ill-advised, in the absence of need or interest, to get a credit or debit card issued, what with all the data breaches lately.
I'm assuming you're all in the United States. If you feel that strongly about it, you could set up a Roth IRA for sibling or sibling's kids, pick a low-risk index fund or ETF to invest in, and make monthly contributions to it. Make sure the desired parties are named as beneficiaries on the IRA. That way, when ailing relative dies, the IRA will pass directly to the beneficiaries without going through probate.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 4:04 AM on November 12
Avoid the fight. Slip the money to the spouse. Keep it between the two of you.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 4:07 AM on November 12 [11 favorites]
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 4:07 AM on November 12 [11 favorites]
Your role in this matters. You asked what to do, but if you’re another sibling vs a third cousin, the answers are going to be different.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 4:35 AM on November 12
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 4:35 AM on November 12
Similar to the above question, I’m curious why you feel it’s necessary for sibling to accept the money.
If it’s out of your own code of fairness, you have done due diligence already to make your case. You can’t say a particular phrase and convince other people to have the same sense of what fair means when it comes to money and family caregiving.
If your motivation is for any other reason, it might be worth adding a comment about that so we have a fuller picture of the dynamics.
Spitballing some examples but - ex. Do you or other family members accept money for your roles as PoA, or other duties? if so, do you feel that sibling’s refusal to accept the money creates an imbalance or awkwardness between types of carers? Or as PoA, does it feel overwhelming to have to work within more nuanced dynamics between family members that can’t be quantified by reimbursements?
posted by seemoorglass at 5:14 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
If it’s out of your own code of fairness, you have done due diligence already to make your case. You can’t say a particular phrase and convince other people to have the same sense of what fair means when it comes to money and family caregiving.
If your motivation is for any other reason, it might be worth adding a comment about that so we have a fuller picture of the dynamics.
Spitballing some examples but - ex. Do you or other family members accept money for your roles as PoA, or other duties? if so, do you feel that sibling’s refusal to accept the money creates an imbalance or awkwardness between types of carers? Or as PoA, does it feel overwhelming to have to work within more nuanced dynamics between family members that can’t be quantified by reimbursements?
posted by seemoorglass at 5:14 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
Avoid the fight. Slip the money to the spouse. Keep it between the two of you.
This was going to be my advice too. Assuming everyone involved is trustworthy, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, give the money to sibling's spouse.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:15 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
This was going to be my advice too. Assuming everyone involved is trustworthy, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, give the money to sibling's spouse.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:15 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
Avoid the fight. Slip the money to the spouse. Keep it between the two of you.
This would solve the husband’s problem, but it is fairly condescending towards the carer. Their family finances are their business and I would be very reluctant to interfere in a marriage that way.
I think privately (as in you are the only one who knows) adding it to the inheritance is the way to go. That way the carer can continue to express their familial bond unsullied, work out their own financial issues with their husband, and be recompensed after it is no longer an issue. They can decide what to do with the money then – keep it, or possibly donate it in the sibling’s name.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:07 AM on November 12 [13 favorites]
This would solve the husband’s problem, but it is fairly condescending towards the carer. Their family finances are their business and I would be very reluctant to interfere in a marriage that way.
I think privately (as in you are the only one who knows) adding it to the inheritance is the way to go. That way the carer can continue to express their familial bond unsullied, work out their own financial issues with their husband, and be recompensed after it is no longer an issue. They can decide what to do with the money then – keep it, or possibly donate it in the sibling’s name.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:07 AM on November 12 [13 favorites]
This is a partner disagreement between the sibling and the sibling's spouse. The spouse doesn't want them spending money to visit, the sibling wants to spend money to visit. Don't, for God's sake, get between the two of them. Supposing the reason they appear hard up is the spouse's gambling addiction? Handing the spouse money is a good way to create a major breech between you and the sibling, who will understandably not like where they ended up in this triangulation.
Just talk to the sibling about the pressure the spouse is putting on you, and tell them that the money is there as soon as they want it. It is not your job to act like you have power of attorney over the sibling's household finances and make decisions as to what they can afford and what they can spend. The sibling should be a gatekeeper over their own activities and their own expenditures, deciding for themself if they will visit and what they will spend. Your role is to facilitate anything that will provide help and comfort to the one who is being visited.
At some point you may have to tell the sibling that they don't need to visit anymore and rearrange things so that this is definitely true because you bring in other to provide the support they like to contribute. Keep in mind that having a sibling with dementia significantly increases your risk for dementia, so the spouse might be completely right that their household cannot afford to pay for these trips, and the sibling may be taking these trips only because they have developed such bad judgement they don't realize that they should not be attempting to keep doing them. But again, that family's finances is not your risk to manage. Rather I am reminding you of this fact because you may need to keep in mind that not only could the support the sibling is providing abruptly stop, but also that they may progress to where the help they are providing is no longer helpful. But don't act on that or assume that either, because while the sibling is at a higher risk of dementia they have a substantial chance of staying lucid and competent until the end. They just have a familial risk factor.
It is probably very good for both siblings to encourage the visits. You might look into ways to make the visits easier for the visiting sibling and their pocketbook, such as by offering them free accommodation as a house guest so they they don't have to handle hotels and meals, or having them get picked up at the airport. Telling sibling that they should stay home and leave the work to professionals means that they will likely no longer visit which could be bad for the one with dementia, and could be bad for the sibling doing the visits because they are no longer needed and it will sever more of their connection to the one with dementia. I feel that if they are being useful then trying to force money on them to continue being useful is going to backfire on you spectacularly and leave everyone upset.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:13 AM on November 12 [10 favorites]
Just talk to the sibling about the pressure the spouse is putting on you, and tell them that the money is there as soon as they want it. It is not your job to act like you have power of attorney over the sibling's household finances and make decisions as to what they can afford and what they can spend. The sibling should be a gatekeeper over their own activities and their own expenditures, deciding for themself if they will visit and what they will spend. Your role is to facilitate anything that will provide help and comfort to the one who is being visited.
At some point you may have to tell the sibling that they don't need to visit anymore and rearrange things so that this is definitely true because you bring in other to provide the support they like to contribute. Keep in mind that having a sibling with dementia significantly increases your risk for dementia, so the spouse might be completely right that their household cannot afford to pay for these trips, and the sibling may be taking these trips only because they have developed such bad judgement they don't realize that they should not be attempting to keep doing them. But again, that family's finances is not your risk to manage. Rather I am reminding you of this fact because you may need to keep in mind that not only could the support the sibling is providing abruptly stop, but also that they may progress to where the help they are providing is no longer helpful. But don't act on that or assume that either, because while the sibling is at a higher risk of dementia they have a substantial chance of staying lucid and competent until the end. They just have a familial risk factor.
It is probably very good for both siblings to encourage the visits. You might look into ways to make the visits easier for the visiting sibling and their pocketbook, such as by offering them free accommodation as a house guest so they they don't have to handle hotels and meals, or having them get picked up at the airport. Telling sibling that they should stay home and leave the work to professionals means that they will likely no longer visit which could be bad for the one with dementia, and could be bad for the sibling doing the visits because they are no longer needed and it will sever more of their connection to the one with dementia. I feel that if they are being useful then trying to force money on them to continue being useful is going to backfire on you spectacularly and leave everyone upset.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:13 AM on November 12 [10 favorites]
Yeah don't give money to one spouse that's meant for another, especially without telling that other.
I really like the suggestion in the very first comment about avoiding future difficulties. It's surprising with end of life, and estates, how time-consuming it can get, and for how long. In the beginning it's so tempting to wave away suggestions of reimbursement but then time goes on and the burden mounts up. See if you can get them to at least keep a record of plane tickets and so on. Then if the time comes and you have to work backwards, you can decide on a per diem or something like that to add to travel expenses.
posted by BibiRose at 6:22 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]
I really like the suggestion in the very first comment about avoiding future difficulties. It's surprising with end of life, and estates, how time-consuming it can get, and for how long. In the beginning it's so tempting to wave away suggestions of reimbursement but then time goes on and the burden mounts up. See if you can get them to at least keep a record of plane tickets and so on. Then if the time comes and you have to work backwards, you can decide on a per diem or something like that to add to travel expenses.
posted by BibiRose at 6:22 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]
What if you changed the narrative and acted as voice for the patient? For example, in better health days what would a visit ensue? Maybe use that logic. For example you know that if sibling was coming to visit (patient in better health days) theyd insist they stay with them, but since that isnt possible, well get you a hotel? And of course theyd want to buy you dinner for coming all the way out here (and give them a gift card to a restaurant, or cash?)
In this case its not framed as compensation for family obligations, but is being a good host for the sibling. Or in your case, being a good host by proxy.
posted by cgg at 6:25 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]
In this case its not framed as compensation for family obligations, but is being a good host for the sibling. Or in your case, being a good host by proxy.
posted by cgg at 6:25 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]
Or that the professionals are capable of doing the job?
People have given you different ideas for how to get money to the relative, whether now or delayed. I imagine you are the best person to determine what route makes sense, since you know the existing family dynamics best.
But I want to echo a point made by stormyteal that reading between the lines a bit, it sounds like you don't fully value what the relative is doing, and framing compensation as linked to your value of their service might help. I have some experience with dementia - my maternal grandfather has dementia for roughly eight years. While it wasn't always clear how much he recognized my mom, what was clear was that she knew what music to play to make him happy - and like a lot of people with dementia, my grandfather could still recall some of his older memories - my mom knew what positive memories to mention that would bring him comfort. So yes, professionals who work with the elderly and infirm are often wonderful kind people who are capable - but there are advantages to a relative providing care.
posted by coffeecat at 7:20 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
People have given you different ideas for how to get money to the relative, whether now or delayed. I imagine you are the best person to determine what route makes sense, since you know the existing family dynamics best.
But I want to echo a point made by stormyteal that reading between the lines a bit, it sounds like you don't fully value what the relative is doing, and framing compensation as linked to your value of their service might help. I have some experience with dementia - my maternal grandfather has dementia for roughly eight years. While it wasn't always clear how much he recognized my mom, what was clear was that she knew what music to play to make him happy - and like a lot of people with dementia, my grandfather could still recall some of his older memories - my mom knew what positive memories to mention that would bring him comfort. So yes, professionals who work with the elderly and infirm are often wonderful kind people who are capable - but there are advantages to a relative providing care.
posted by coffeecat at 7:20 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
how to convince the sibling that ... the professionals are capable of doing the job?
"The professionals" are not infrequently capable but not particularly interested or motivated or respectful or focused or.... (And once in a while you get someone who's not that capable either.) It really is not unlikely that having an extra person present, who demonstrably cares about how the patient is treated and is able to be observant and focused, is and has been producing better outcomes. And this sibling may also feel that their presence helps the patient during this type of unfamiliar and possibly stressful experience, and they may be right.
Regarding money, I think the strongest argument is "you do so much and it means so much and sibling would have wanted it". Or, if it's possible for some of this to come from your pocket instead of the patient's, "I appreciate you so much and you're doing a thing that I wish I could be doing (but can't because of distance etc.) so let me at least feel that I'm involved in this too (by contributing financially)." And if that doesn't work then yeah, "I'm putting money aside for you in any case, in case it ever makes it easier in the future."
posted by trig at 7:21 AM on November 12 [5 favorites]
"The professionals" are not infrequently capable but not particularly interested or motivated or respectful or focused or.... (And once in a while you get someone who's not that capable either.) It really is not unlikely that having an extra person present, who demonstrably cares about how the patient is treated and is able to be observant and focused, is and has been producing better outcomes. And this sibling may also feel that their presence helps the patient during this type of unfamiliar and possibly stressful experience, and they may be right.
Regarding money, I think the strongest argument is "you do so much and it means so much and sibling would have wanted it". Or, if it's possible for some of this to come from your pocket instead of the patient's, "I appreciate you so much and you're doing a thing that I wish I could be doing (but can't because of distance etc.) so let me at least feel that I'm involved in this too (by contributing financially)." And if that doesn't work then yeah, "I'm putting money aside for you in any case, in case it ever makes it easier in the future."
posted by trig at 7:21 AM on November 12 [5 favorites]
The sibling's husband thinks the costs should be recompensed.
The questions of whether or not the husband is a jerk (especially the type to take out his frustration on either sibling) and of how stressed the couple's finances actually are are also a factor in deciding what to do.
posted by trig at 7:26 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
The questions of whether or not the husband is a jerk (especially the type to take out his frustration on either sibling) and of how stressed the couple's finances actually are are also a factor in deciding what to do.
posted by trig at 7:26 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]
I vote against dividing a couple by slipping compensation to the spouse. That betrays the sibling who is doing the job who refuses money, and could set up very unpleasant reaction by the sibling. I would certainly feel betrayed if my spouse did this. I took care of an elderly and ill aunt for a couple of years as I lived in the vicinity and she was a widow without children and had outlived nearly all of her siblings. She offered me money for gas, etc, for taking her to appointments (and to chemo appointments quite a distance away) and shopping and cooking for her occasionally. I refused money, (though I did let her spend her own money for any shopping) as this was something I did because I loved her and there was nobody else, only another niece who lived 6 hours away who visited rarely.
About a year into caring for her my aunt gave me a birthday card with a hefty check in it, telling me to spend it on something special for myself. I was touched, and couldn't refuse. The amount of the check had nothing to do with any accounting of my services, but was a recognition that I was valued. She eventually died, and she left me an unexpected, though not large, inheritance.
That is also something to consider. Thanksgiving and the holidays are coming up and could be the occasion for a card to the sibling.
posted by citygirl at 8:29 AM on November 12 [4 favorites]
About a year into caring for her my aunt gave me a birthday card with a hefty check in it, telling me to spend it on something special for myself. I was touched, and couldn't refuse. The amount of the check had nothing to do with any accounting of my services, but was a recognition that I was valued. She eventually died, and she left me an unexpected, though not large, inheritance.
That is also something to consider. Thanksgiving and the holidays are coming up and could be the occasion for a card to the sibling.
posted by citygirl at 8:29 AM on November 12 [4 favorites]
Redirect sibling's spouse back to sibling to discuss any concerns they have, and pay or don't according to sibling's wishes. If you have discretion to set aside the money you'd otherwise have spent to be given in the future if the situation changes, that would be a nice option.
posted by Stacey at 11:06 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 11:06 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]
"how to convince the sibling [to] take cash?"
The sibling can decide for themselves. Why does it bother you so much? As others have said, give this person a big check somewhere along the line. Tell the spouse that is the best you can do.
"the professionals are capable of doing the job"
This seems somewhat unfeeling on your part. An incapacitated loved one in a facility is worth visiting. Situations vary of course, but it is a way family express love and loyalty to someone who is so far gone. Also, family showing up is one way to ensure the loved one is getting decent care. Why are you trying to stop someone from visiting their sibling?
I wonder if there is more to this situation (maybe the spouse doesn't like any of it and wants it to stop?), but I say drop it.
posted by rhonzo at 12:09 PM on November 12 [1 favorite]
The sibling can decide for themselves. Why does it bother you so much? As others have said, give this person a big check somewhere along the line. Tell the spouse that is the best you can do.
"the professionals are capable of doing the job"
This seems somewhat unfeeling on your part. An incapacitated loved one in a facility is worth visiting. Situations vary of course, but it is a way family express love and loyalty to someone who is so far gone. Also, family showing up is one way to ensure the loved one is getting decent care. Why are you trying to stop someone from visiting their sibling?
I wonder if there is more to this situation (maybe the spouse doesn't like any of it and wants it to stop?), but I say drop it.
posted by rhonzo at 12:09 PM on November 12 [1 favorite]
As power of attorney, I would make sure to let the person know you are willing to give them cash, and that the estate can afford it. You can't make them take it. I'd let them know in writing, and privately. Maybe something like this:
Hi Name,
I wanted to express my gratitude for the care and love that you show in visiting Name. I know it means a lot to Name, and it's so meaningful and reassuring to me that Name is so cared for. Your time and your care are so beautiful and meaningful. I know you do it as an act of love, and that you aren't looking for anything in return.
As Name's Power of Attorney, I have control over Name's finances. I want to reassure you that there is more than enough money in the fund to cover the rest of Name's life in assisted living, Name's eventual funeral, and any other expenses as they arrive.
As POA, it's my responsibility to allocate that money in a way that supports Name's needs and enriches Name's life, and I truly see how much it enriches Name's life to have your visits. The time you spend with Name is priceless - but is is not free!
I know that your trips to visit Name cost you money in terms of gas, food, and lodging, and that you have graciously never expected any reimbursement for this act of love!
I know Name would never want to be a financial hardship to you. I feel the same and I feel confident that the rest of Name's decendants would agree.
I'm writing because I want to let you know that there is money to help you cover those expenses, if you ever want it, or need it. Just let me know the amount and I will send it immediately. This can pay back the amount you have already spent over the years visiting Name, and the expenses you continue to incur. We can keep it confidential if that helps you feel more comfortable.
I would never want you to lack for money, especially while giving so much of yourself to Name. So I wanted to put this in writing so you can think about it.
This offer stands now and for the rest of Name's life - just let me know any time, and it is very quick and easy for me to send you the money right into your account to reimburse you as a gesture of deep appreciation.
With all my love and respect
Name
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:33 PM on November 12 [5 favorites]
Hi Name,
I wanted to express my gratitude for the care and love that you show in visiting Name. I know it means a lot to Name, and it's so meaningful and reassuring to me that Name is so cared for. Your time and your care are so beautiful and meaningful. I know you do it as an act of love, and that you aren't looking for anything in return.
As Name's Power of Attorney, I have control over Name's finances. I want to reassure you that there is more than enough money in the fund to cover the rest of Name's life in assisted living, Name's eventual funeral, and any other expenses as they arrive.
As POA, it's my responsibility to allocate that money in a way that supports Name's needs and enriches Name's life, and I truly see how much it enriches Name's life to have your visits. The time you spend with Name is priceless - but is is not free!
I know that your trips to visit Name cost you money in terms of gas, food, and lodging, and that you have graciously never expected any reimbursement for this act of love!
I know Name would never want to be a financial hardship to you. I feel the same and I feel confident that the rest of Name's decendants would agree.
I'm writing because I want to let you know that there is money to help you cover those expenses, if you ever want it, or need it. Just let me know the amount and I will send it immediately. This can pay back the amount you have already spent over the years visiting Name, and the expenses you continue to incur. We can keep it confidential if that helps you feel more comfortable.
I would never want you to lack for money, especially while giving so much of yourself to Name. So I wanted to put this in writing so you can think about it.
This offer stands now and for the rest of Name's life - just let me know any time, and it is very quick and easy for me to send you the money right into your account to reimburse you as a gesture of deep appreciation.
With all my love and respect
Name
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:33 PM on November 12 [5 favorites]
Buy a card and send a thank you card to sibling with a hand written check in it for the amount you think is appropriate or amount that as much as possible reflects the actual incurred cost. If they cash it, great. If not, just make an adjusting entry in the checkbook.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:08 PM on November 12
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:08 PM on November 12
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Perhaps the way to frame this with sibling might be to "insist" upon reimbursement to "ensure that they'll be able to continue their visits without cost becoming an issue in the future" or some such phrasing that shows that you and your ailing relative value their sacrifice, but want it to be a sacrifice of time and energy and not one of finances... (especially because they're likely to need those funds for they and their husband's own future wellbeing.)
posted by stormyteal at 12:32 AM on November 12 [14 favorites]