I need to help my dying friend wire money overseas

October 23, 2024 7:52 AM

My friend is in the late stages of a brutal battle with colorectal cancer. She is at a clinic in California and has a bed held for her at a last-ditch clinic in Germany. Her bank will not allow her to initiate a $19K wire transfer by phone or online to the German clinic. They are insisting she come in to a branch in New York. My friend cannot travel to New York--she is going to be lucky to survive the trip to Germany. What options does she have?

For context, we have both called her bank (Apple Bank for Savings, local branch and central customer help line) and have heard the same story from both. I was told by the customer service people that she could do an external transfer of funds to another US account, but of course, it has to be her account.

We were also told she could add someone with power of attorney to the account, and that person could come in to the branch, but my understanding is that the process takes quite a long time, both to get the power of attorney and then for the bank to accept it and change the account status.

What are we missing here? This seems like a ridiculous problem.

posted by yellowcandy to Work & Money (26 answers total)

Best answer: There are various third-party transfer services, if the bank will allow her to use them. I have used Wise, and here's a guide to it and other services.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:06 AM on October 23, 2024 [6 favorites]

Is there another way for her (or for you) to cover the $19k and then resolve it afterwards? On a credit card, taking a personal loan through SoFi or similar? Wire transfers are sticky because they are often irreversible, and some banks make them difficult.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 8:07 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]

If she has more than $19,000 limit on a credit card she can pay the money into that and pay the clinic with the card. I did this for my parents when my mom had a heart attack in New Caledonia.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:15 AM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]

I mean no disrespect or unkindness when I say this, but I need to ask: you're absolutely certain your friend, and this clinic, are ... real?

A sudden large wire transfer is a strange way to need to deal with a medical clinic, and if this clinic is real, has been around a while and is focused on final-stage, best-effort/last-ditch care you'd think they would have systems and a knowledge base of some kind in place for this kind of problem.
posted by mhoye at 8:15 AM on October 23, 2024 [59 favorites]

A credit card is a much safer way to do this. But also, echoing the idea that this smells a bit like a scam of some sort.

There are big/national banks that allow you to initiate wire transfers online, but they may not allow this from a brand new account.

The small bank I work at requires customers to come in to send wires exactly because wires are a popular locus for fraud and scams, and we want to be able to sit with the customer and make sure they’re not being scammed by whoever requested that they wire money.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:30 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]

You may have to do it in multiple transactions that are less than $10k.

Do not do this. This is a serious financial crime called "structuring" and the banks watch out for it.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:33 AM on October 23, 2024 [12 favorites]

Response by poster: Not threadsitting, but the German clinic is not a hoax. She has been talking with them for quite some time (i.e. months) now and is certain they're legit. Also: I can tell her to be cautious, but it's ultimately not my money, nor my decision.

Keep the suggestions coming, please! These are very helpful.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:45 AM on October 23, 2024

Response by poster: Can you elaborate on the 'last-ditch clinic' in Germany?

It's not really relevant to this question, and as I mentioned, she has been in discussions with them for quite some time.

The "last-ditch" is more on her end. She has been trying to treat her cancer with non-traditional medicine, and the German clinic offers both science-based and more non-traditional options. The clinic itself is not promising a miracle.

She has also gotten friends in Germany to verify that it is legitimate.

A credit card is a much safer way to do this.

The clinic can't accept credit card payment for a sum this large, unfortunately. A wire transfer is the only option here.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:12 AM on October 23, 2024

Am caretaker for immobile brother. He has a good size checking and saving account. I use the credit/ debit card for living expenses for both of us. I live with him. But I often ran into situations where he needed to be present in the bank, like depositing bonds. What i did with his approval was to get added to his account...but come to think about it he did need to be there in person for this to happen.sorry, not much help.
posted by Czjewel at 9:43 AM on October 23, 2024

Best answer: Wire transfer (actually ACH, wires are unusual for routine payments) is not that unusual in Europe. People do not have checkbooks. The fees for processing checks are high. The consumer protections against mistaken or fraudulent payments are a lot stronger than the US. So the bank payment does not by itself ring alarm bells for me. The service Xe.com should be able to do this. The way it works is they initiate an ACH transfer from a domestic bank, handle the currency conversion, and then initiate a transfer from a bank in the destination country. I’ve used it to send ~€2K in the past.
posted by wnissen at 9:45 AM on October 23, 2024 [8 favorites]

Response by poster: Got it. People are concerned this is a scam. I understand. I've had my own concerns, but my friend has done more than her due diligence to make certain it is not.

I am not interested in standing in the way of my friend using her money to seek the treatment that she believes she needs. She is dying.

I have also heard your concerns about being in the middle of this. My friend has no other family apart from a disabled mother. My spouse and I are among her only supports. I would like this transfer to be direct from my friend to the clinic, as I mentioned.

So please, from this point forward: advice relevant to resolving my question only. Thank you.
posted by yellowcandy at 10:21 AM on October 23, 2024 [7 favorites]

Best answer: If it helps people to stick to the question, credit card acceptance is much less common in Germany than it is in the US. Requiring a wire transfer is not ipso facto suspicious.
posted by caek at 11:42 AM on October 23, 2024 [5 favorites]

I hope someone in banking can respond, but I found it fairly easy to do wire transfers with Bank of America when I was in Europe (though they did take a day or two). Perhaps it makes more sense to see what institutions in the US (bank or credit union) would be more helpful on this and transfer her accounts there, rather than dealing with her current institution?
posted by raccoon409 at 11:49 AM on October 23, 2024

Mod note: A few deletions made, please stick to answering the question and avoid trying to convince the OP that their friend's treatment is a scam.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:48 PM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]

In the not-a-scam column (and I'm going to be vague), I know trans people who literally carried upwards of ten thousand dollars in cash to a European country for surgery. In other words, this is not outlandish to me. (This was more than a decade ago. I honestly can't remember why wiring it wasn't an option, but for at least one friend, we ruled it out. The bank may have been unwilling one you crossed the magic $10k number, I don't remember.)
posted by hoyland at 1:20 PM on October 23, 2024

Best answer: Just wanted to confirm that in Germany, wire transfers are the norm, credit cards are much less common, and I believe many people would balk at a clinic accepting (only) credit cards. People tend to trust their own bank to safely transfer money, and many don't even have a credit card.

Can you call the bank again and ask how quickly it's possible to add someone to the account?

Then, could she give power of attorney to an attorney in New York? Call one. They'll know how to set it up remotely.

If you end up needing to get her signature to the bank or the attorney, this is a great opportunity for an old-fashioned fax machine.

Or - what if she got a German bank account?
posted by toucan at 1:29 PM on October 23, 2024 [2 favorites]

I think you can open a Schwab account online without having any contact with real humans, transfer money from her bank to Schwab, then use Schwab to make the wire transfer. They are pretty loosey-goosey with allowing wire transfers that are initiated online; at most I think they call to confirm that you're doing what you're trying to do. I've never transferred money out of the US with them, but inside the US this would definitely fly with them...
posted by A Blue Moon at 1:31 PM on October 23, 2024

The clinic can't accept credit card payment for a sum this large, unfortunately

For some small businesses, the reason they do not accept credit cards for large sums, is that the processing fees (often up to about 3%) get to be unwieldy. The clinic may be willing to accept a credit card for the larger amount if you offer to pay extra to offset the fees.
posted by hovey at 1:40 PM on October 23, 2024 [4 favorites]

Best answer: If she is able, have your friend open an account with Wise. Transfer money from her Apple Bank account to a USD-denominated account held with Wise. From there, you can convert the money to EUR and make the bank transfer to the clinic in Germany. The daily transfer limit is high (well over $20K). You can also create a separate EUR-denominated account with an IBAN that you can use to receive transfers from EU banks.

Caveat that it's been a long time since I set up a profile with them so I am not familiar with their current KYC practices. As a new customer, it's possible you'll get some extra scrutiny when setting up an account and then immediately making a relatively large foreign transfer.

It is annoying to wire money from a US brick-and-mortar bank to a foreign account, as you are currently experiencing. Partly this is for legitimate fraud prevention reasons, partly I suspect it's because paying by bank transfer is not common in the US so it's a thing they know they can upcharge for. I would not bother trying to convince the bank.

I hope your friend finds the clinic helpful.
posted by 4rtemis at 1:43 PM on October 23, 2024

A couple options:

1. Power of Attorney so someone else can go into the bank - just get a mobile notary to come to her home to sign the paperwork. This is the fastest option - probably could be completed in a few days.
2. Transfer money to another bank that does international transfers - this will take a lot longer, as the new bank will most likely hold the funds for a minimum of two weeks before releasing them.
3. Is she certain she doesn't have access to any other bank or transfer account right now? Her credit card or if she has any other financial accounts anywhere (retirement, money market account) may mean that she already has access to an account she can transfer money internationally in and out of. See if she'd be willing to review all of her financial accounts with you, so you can look them up.
posted by Toddles at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2024

Best answer: Just wanted to confirm that in Germany, wire transfers are the norm, credit cards are much less common, and I believe many people would balk at a clinic accepting (only) credit cards. People tend to trust their own bank to safely transfer money, and many don't even have a credit card.

Quoting this for truth and emphasis. I live in Austria and worked for more than twenty years in organisations with exactly this problem (Transfer of largish amounts from EU to USA and vice versa)
Within the EU it is totally normal to exchange bank account numbers etc and transfer the money from one account to another. This method of payment is not at all suspicious and is considered the safest form.
If anything, credit card payments are seen as somewhat odd and only are becoming more mainstream in the last few years. Checks are no longer used and only issued by banks here for a very high handling fee and seen as suspicious.
posted by 15L06 at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]

> the big pain may be finding a notary

Pretty much every hospital will have a notary on staff who can come around to get things like a power of attorney signed and notarized.

Just call the main hospital information line or front desk and ask, or google "my hospital name notary".
posted by flug at 8:52 PM on October 23, 2024

Structuring is a concern only for cash currency.

"In the United States, the Bank Secrecy Act requires currency transaction reports (CTRs) to be filed for cash transactions involving coin or paper money valued at more than $10,000; it applies to both U.S. and foreign currencies.[4] Contrary to popular misunderstanding, it does not apply to checks or electronic transactions.[5]" - Wikipedia, which links to an official document stating the same.

And yes, Wise.com is the way.
posted by dum spiro spero at 9:42 PM on October 23, 2024

From helping a customer recently, it seems Wise changed a few months ago so that if you are in the US, you cannot pay with your bank account (ACH) - you must use a debit card (credit card may also be an option, but with higher fees.) Debit cards typically have fairly low limits (at my job it's $2000 and there's essentially a hard limit of $10k even with permission from a bank VP. Large banks may differ. The way around this in this case would be to split the payment over a few days.)

If someone who personally uses Wise in the US/with a US bank and has sent money overseas recently can confirm that that may be helpful for purposes of this thread's question.
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:29 AM on October 24, 2024 [1 favorite]

Best answer:

From helping a customer recently, it seems Wise changed a few months ago so that if you are in the US, you cannot pay with your bank account (ACH).

I just logged into my own account to check this. I do see payment via ACH transfer as an option, and their help center says it is supported.

My own workflow for US -> EU transfers on Wise is:
- Send money from US brick-and-mortar bank account to Wise USD account via ACH transfer
- Convert Wise USD account balance to Wise EUR account balance (held with their EU banking partner in Belgium)
- Transfer from the Wise EUR account to the European recipient account
posted by 4rtemis at 8:56 AM on October 24, 2024

Best answer: Xe.com is the way to do this for a pure US <> EU transfer where you don’t want to hold the money. Their limit is over US$500K, transfers take only a week or so (admittedly unless the banks involved hold them up) and the fees are extremely low. You need all the recipient’s info, name, address, SWIFT, etc. for confirmation that you’re sending to the correct party, but that’s it, from the sender’s perspective it is a simple one-time transaction on a website.
posted by wnissen at 9:34 AM on October 24, 2024