Dealing with doomers
September 21, 2024 12:39 PM Subscribe
In the past few years, several people in my community have taken a pretty hard turn into leftist doomerism. Looking for advice on dealing with them (and with doomerism in general)
These are close and not-so-close friends and people involved in organizations and activities I don't want to quit. I'm primarily making this distinction because I know how I want to deal with this sort of thing in online spaces: I can block, unfollow, disengage, not visit the community/blog, etc.
There's considerable variation from person to person but broadly I think these folks could all describe themselves as "collapse-aware" and believe most people living now (and probably all younger people, including their children, which is a primary focus of their concern) will live shortened, immiserated lives due to climate change or environmental degradation more broadly, nuclear war, resurgent fascism, long covid, bird flu, etc.
Individual responses to these beliefs are almost universally benign-to-prosocial. Nobody is turning to gun owning, off-the-grid prepping or "fly to all the vacation destinations you want to visit now because you might not have the chance later." So, things like building community and mutual aid networks, activism, mask distribution and advocacy for air filters in schools, etc.
But it seems like they want to talk about it endlessly. It comes up in virtually any discussion about the future, or politics, or their children or children in general, or the weather. It comes up unprompted. They're obviously spending a huge amount of energy ruminating about how bad the future could/will be and it's leaks into everything else they do, and in some cases may actually be their motivation for involvement in our shared activities. One friend who was getting ready to buy a new car scoffed at my suggestion of an EV "because it will be useless when the grid becomes unreliable or goes down." (They eventually got an EV.) Another will (gently) abuse me because I'm saving money in a 401k for retirement, because the economy will almost certainly collapse before we're old enough to retire, and furthermore any involvement with equities markets harms the vulnerable and is literally war profiteering. One is indignant about how an organization they're involved in running won't acknowledge the possibility of societal collapse within the next decade in their long-term planning.
I have to admit I'm more-or-less aligned with their beliefs other than by degree or certainty, and thus suceptible to induced anxiety. I stopped flying about ten years ago because I am very concerned about climate change, but I'm not certain at all this year's unusually warm fall heralds a new feedback-driven climate regime that will lead to 10 C of warming, collapse of the food system, and human extinction by 2100, for example. And, honestly, I don't want to spend really any time at all thinking or talking about the possibility, even to halfheartedly debunk it!
If you deal with friends or community members who are like this, how do you handle it? Both in specific interactions, like when they're spiralling out about something, and more generally (like "how do I continue participating in the things I want to do when it results in close proximity to their terrible vibes")?
These are close and not-so-close friends and people involved in organizations and activities I don't want to quit. I'm primarily making this distinction because I know how I want to deal with this sort of thing in online spaces: I can block, unfollow, disengage, not visit the community/blog, etc.
There's considerable variation from person to person but broadly I think these folks could all describe themselves as "collapse-aware" and believe most people living now (and probably all younger people, including their children, which is a primary focus of their concern) will live shortened, immiserated lives due to climate change or environmental degradation more broadly, nuclear war, resurgent fascism, long covid, bird flu, etc.
Individual responses to these beliefs are almost universally benign-to-prosocial. Nobody is turning to gun owning, off-the-grid prepping or "fly to all the vacation destinations you want to visit now because you might not have the chance later." So, things like building community and mutual aid networks, activism, mask distribution and advocacy for air filters in schools, etc.
But it seems like they want to talk about it endlessly. It comes up in virtually any discussion about the future, or politics, or their children or children in general, or the weather. It comes up unprompted. They're obviously spending a huge amount of energy ruminating about how bad the future could/will be and it's leaks into everything else they do, and in some cases may actually be their motivation for involvement in our shared activities. One friend who was getting ready to buy a new car scoffed at my suggestion of an EV "because it will be useless when the grid becomes unreliable or goes down." (They eventually got an EV.) Another will (gently) abuse me because I'm saving money in a 401k for retirement, because the economy will almost certainly collapse before we're old enough to retire, and furthermore any involvement with equities markets harms the vulnerable and is literally war profiteering. One is indignant about how an organization they're involved in running won't acknowledge the possibility of societal collapse within the next decade in their long-term planning.
I have to admit I'm more-or-less aligned with their beliefs other than by degree or certainty, and thus suceptible to induced anxiety. I stopped flying about ten years ago because I am very concerned about climate change, but I'm not certain at all this year's unusually warm fall heralds a new feedback-driven climate regime that will lead to 10 C of warming, collapse of the food system, and human extinction by 2100, for example. And, honestly, I don't want to spend really any time at all thinking or talking about the possibility, even to halfheartedly debunk it!
If you deal with friends or community members who are like this, how do you handle it? Both in specific interactions, like when they're spiralling out about something, and more generally (like "how do I continue participating in the things I want to do when it results in close proximity to their terrible vibes")?
Set the boundary, then enforce the boundary. "Friend, we need to focus on enjoying the moment, I can't handle thinking about societal collapse right now" and "Be that as it may, right now I'm asking you if you want to go bowling" and "It's not up for discussion, let's talk about something else (or we're done for the day)" for personal choices discussions. Just not talking about it is the best I can do because, yes, I agree, but it also harms me to perseverate on it.
If they're out buying new cars (not a bicycle? shame on them /sarcasm) and not taking the actual drastic efforts that it would require to make any change at all (like, "large-scale violent terrorism of oil and munitions producers" is where we're at, pretty much) then they're taking anxiety out on you and you don't have to stand for it.
Also only respond to the positive parts of statements. Growing a garden for food security? Great! What are you planting? Picking up Couch to 5k so you can run from an angry mob? Great! I've been wondering about doing that program, how do you like it so far? Trying to influence the strategic plan? It's good you're getting involved!
I kind of deal with it like-- society's path to collapse is not in my control (unless I want to do some terrorism, which I don't) but my own behavior is in my control. So I'm going to do what I would do anyway if I thought I was going to die in 20 years, which is save modestly for the few years of retirement I'll get between now and cancer and/or climate collapse, and enjoy my life in ways that are not overtly harmful until then.
posted by blnkfrnk at 1:06 PM on September 21 [8 favorites]
If they're out buying new cars (not a bicycle? shame on them /sarcasm) and not taking the actual drastic efforts that it would require to make any change at all (like, "large-scale violent terrorism of oil and munitions producers" is where we're at, pretty much) then they're taking anxiety out on you and you don't have to stand for it.
Also only respond to the positive parts of statements. Growing a garden for food security? Great! What are you planting? Picking up Couch to 5k so you can run from an angry mob? Great! I've been wondering about doing that program, how do you like it so far? Trying to influence the strategic plan? It's good you're getting involved!
I kind of deal with it like-- society's path to collapse is not in my control (unless I want to do some terrorism, which I don't) but my own behavior is in my control. So I'm going to do what I would do anyway if I thought I was going to die in 20 years, which is save modestly for the few years of retirement I'll get between now and cancer and/or climate collapse, and enjoy my life in ways that are not overtly harmful until then.
posted by blnkfrnk at 1:06 PM on September 21 [8 favorites]
Something that helped me do this less, though I still do it, was realizing that at times, talking about this stuff—which I genuinely do care about—is still nonetheless virtue signaling. That is to say, as much as anything, it can be a way to show that I have the right values. Maybe on some level, holding onto that—that I have the right values, or that I recognize the bad things, or that I haven't forgotten previous bad things—becomes a point of identity, and a check to run on friends or potential friends. Do you also have the right values? Do you also see the bad things? Are you making apologies for the bad things, or do you share my values?
It's an understandable way of being these days! Sometimes I think people from all perspectives can right now sometimes feel like their friends have been overtaken by some kind of memetic virus. Sometimes that's realizing your pagan friends you thought were open-minded are also anti-vax, or realizing people you care about no longer share your perspective on how to respond to having COVID, or seeing someone unthinkingly express support for a certain Middle Eastern nation-state... See, there I go doing it too. I do want people to know I'm good, and I want to know that the people I know also know what good is and want to be good.
The way I first recognized this in myself was when I was hanging out with my partner and a friend who signals her virtue in conversation even more than I do. I realized how much it was annoying me that she couldn't just like something—every step of the way was another apologia for everything from being from a small town ("you know how the police are there") to being actively involved in a religion (and explaining in detail how she was evidencing her values through that). I just got to know another friend better recently and went through that process again—discussing comics and books and TV and movies and sharing the things that we knew were problematic about each one.
I guess the question is, are there ways you can connect and find joy together? Like let's make our perfunctory acknowledgements, capitalism is bad and I would never want to work in finance, and I would prefer not to waste my time going to work. But I am nonetheless going to work some, and I'm not going to stop investing in the stock market, and unfortunately, there's not much we can do individually to control a lot of gigantic societal and climactic shifts, because we need industry and government to help do that.
So yeah, it sucks, but what is bringing you joy right now? What are you living for? What's great lately that we can share? What activities can we do together that don't inflame your sense of injustice? Those are places of potential common ground to start.
posted by limeonaire at 1:12 PM on September 21 [18 favorites]
It's an understandable way of being these days! Sometimes I think people from all perspectives can right now sometimes feel like their friends have been overtaken by some kind of memetic virus. Sometimes that's realizing your pagan friends you thought were open-minded are also anti-vax, or realizing people you care about no longer share your perspective on how to respond to having COVID, or seeing someone unthinkingly express support for a certain Middle Eastern nation-state... See, there I go doing it too. I do want people to know I'm good, and I want to know that the people I know also know what good is and want to be good.
The way I first recognized this in myself was when I was hanging out with my partner and a friend who signals her virtue in conversation even more than I do. I realized how much it was annoying me that she couldn't just like something—every step of the way was another apologia for everything from being from a small town ("you know how the police are there") to being actively involved in a religion (and explaining in detail how she was evidencing her values through that). I just got to know another friend better recently and went through that process again—discussing comics and books and TV and movies and sharing the things that we knew were problematic about each one.
I guess the question is, are there ways you can connect and find joy together? Like let's make our perfunctory acknowledgements, capitalism is bad and I would never want to work in finance, and I would prefer not to waste my time going to work. But I am nonetheless going to work some, and I'm not going to stop investing in the stock market, and unfortunately, there's not much we can do individually to control a lot of gigantic societal and climactic shifts, because we need industry and government to help do that.
So yeah, it sucks, but what is bringing you joy right now? What are you living for? What's great lately that we can share? What activities can we do together that don't inflame your sense of injustice? Those are places of potential common ground to start.
posted by limeonaire at 1:12 PM on September 21 [18 favorites]
For what it's worth, also, I think a lot of the reason people do this can be because they do want to connect. And maybe it's a mode of connection that they have with other friends that they haven't really fully thought through or become self-aware about—like, with my iconoclast punk friends, we can acknowledge that capitalism sux and hey did you read about the latest bad thing the police did? Yeah, that was really bad and I'm pretty anxious about it now.
But not everyone wants to hear about it, even if they generally share my values. So there's also an element here of reading the room that may not be happening with your friends, so you might need to help them with that. It's like some conversations we've had on here about having kids: Some people think that the only ethical way forward during times of collapse is to never have kids. But nonetheless, people are going to have kids, and they're not going to relate to you very kindly if you are continually telling them, directly or indirectly, that their life choices suck.
tl;dr: Maybe you can be the person who can help them see that connection is still very important to combating all the things they're worried about, and people might want to connect in different ways.
posted by limeonaire at 1:29 PM on September 21
But not everyone wants to hear about it, even if they generally share my values. So there's also an element here of reading the room that may not be happening with your friends, so you might need to help them with that. It's like some conversations we've had on here about having kids: Some people think that the only ethical way forward during times of collapse is to never have kids. But nonetheless, people are going to have kids, and they're not going to relate to you very kindly if you are continually telling them, directly or indirectly, that their life choices suck.
tl;dr: Maybe you can be the person who can help them see that connection is still very important to combating all the things they're worried about, and people might want to connect in different ways.
posted by limeonaire at 1:29 PM on September 21
“I find that too stressful to talk about right now actually. But, you know, I really wanted to talk to you about that set of seeds you brought over last week — do they require a heat lamp to germinate?”
posted by hungrytiger at 3:53 PM on September 21 [1 favorite]
posted by hungrytiger at 3:53 PM on September 21 [1 favorite]
Well, for me I try to either use humor or my programmer's sense of analysis and project scope definition.
A recent XKCD cartoon has the 2 astronauts trapped up there until February looking out a port hole at the Earth and one says to the other: "and to think that all those 8 billion people are just trapped down there unless they figure out this problem!"
From an analytical standpoint I look back to my own childhood in a big city and me having a childhood illness that required special medications and tests, etc. I was educated in a religious school and eventually got a job and retired and now I'm 71. I mean, was I somehow protected by a genie? Was I a special case? I do remember being "trapped" on a bus back from a visit to Washington DC because the bus could not make a rest stop in Maryland (you can fill in the blanks). So US society in the 50s thru 80s wasn't exactly idyllic (in my opinion).
The above is not a "slam dunk" for a conversation with a doomer, but at some point they have to admit that not every dangerous trend necessarily spirals into catastrophe. And at some point they have to admit adults are assumed to have agency, and that perhaps establishing connections with others who feel the same way might be the first step.
I know I may have just set up a straw man above, and then knocked it down.
Only other thought that comes to my mind is that maybe there is a magazine or on-line forum (or should be) where these concerns could be "fleshed out" so that people don't always start from scratch each time they moan about the FU level of modern society.
posted by forthright at 3:54 PM on September 21 [3 favorites]
A recent XKCD cartoon has the 2 astronauts trapped up there until February looking out a port hole at the Earth and one says to the other: "and to think that all those 8 billion people are just trapped down there unless they figure out this problem!"
From an analytical standpoint I look back to my own childhood in a big city and me having a childhood illness that required special medications and tests, etc. I was educated in a religious school and eventually got a job and retired and now I'm 71. I mean, was I somehow protected by a genie? Was I a special case? I do remember being "trapped" on a bus back from a visit to Washington DC because the bus could not make a rest stop in Maryland (you can fill in the blanks). So US society in the 50s thru 80s wasn't exactly idyllic (in my opinion).
The above is not a "slam dunk" for a conversation with a doomer, but at some point they have to admit that not every dangerous trend necessarily spirals into catastrophe. And at some point they have to admit adults are assumed to have agency, and that perhaps establishing connections with others who feel the same way might be the first step.
I know I may have just set up a straw man above, and then knocked it down.
Only other thought that comes to my mind is that maybe there is a magazine or on-line forum (or should be) where these concerns could be "fleshed out" so that people don't always start from scratch each time they moan about the FU level of modern society.
posted by forthright at 3:54 PM on September 21 [3 favorites]
"Poor humans, skillful beyond all other animals by being able to think in time. In knowing the future, they die before they’re dead, they shriek from the shark’s teeth before it has bitten, they dread the alien germ long long before its banquet begins."
posted by etealuear_crushue at 4:09 PM on September 21 [11 favorites]
posted by etealuear_crushue at 4:09 PM on September 21 [11 favorites]
Two things are true (that is, many things are true, but we'll start with two):
1) The doomerism you mention is based on facts, science, and expert predictions. It involves valid and real things we should worry about (though we mostly cannot control them, and can only influence some of them by individual or collective action).
2) Since time immemorial, humans have been projecting their individual generalised anxieties and fears onto large events they can't control.
For example:
Religious: the Apocalypse is coming, but we may be able to save our souls through prayer
Natural: the Plague is coming, but we may be able to avert it through fasting and mortification of the flesh;
Political: the Big One is gonna drop, but if we protest then maybe they'll give peace a chance.
Most of which are valid fears about the world; but they are also surrogates for our own fears of death, of sudden changes or losses, of the myriad personal things we can't control. Channeling the fear of unexpected disasters into expected disasters.
So, when someone launches into bewailing our collective impending doom, would it help to say to yourself "This is just their way of dealing with the fear everyone feels"?
As with the religions that used to be commonplace, they seek validation, connection, and a sense of not being alone before the vast Inevitable.
So, validate: "yeah, it sucks." "Yeah, I get it." "Yes, it is genocide, and it's fucking heartbreaking."
Then, gently counter: "That mutual aid network you built is a great thing. I bet you've changed a lot of lives just through small acts of help where it was needed."
"Because of your advocacy, some kids are running around happy and healthy who might otherwise have been hospitalised. They don't know it, but you helped save them."
Then, redirect: "I'm going to focus on the things I can control or influence. We need to do the work before us now, in helping others, and in getting better people elected in November."
(Doomers of the kind you describe are usually nihilistically cynical about politics, but it's objectively true that one party actively wants to destroy the environment and the other will try, however ineffectively, to save it)
If all else fails: "Supposing you're right and we are all going to die in [doomsday scenario]. Would you rather have spent your days fearing it, or salvaging what joy we can in the time we have?"
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:58 PM on September 21 [15 favorites]
1) The doomerism you mention is based on facts, science, and expert predictions. It involves valid and real things we should worry about (though we mostly cannot control them, and can only influence some of them by individual or collective action).
2) Since time immemorial, humans have been projecting their individual generalised anxieties and fears onto large events they can't control.
For example:
Religious: the Apocalypse is coming, but we may be able to save our souls through prayer
Natural: the Plague is coming, but we may be able to avert it through fasting and mortification of the flesh;
Political: the Big One is gonna drop, but if we protest then maybe they'll give peace a chance.
Most of which are valid fears about the world; but they are also surrogates for our own fears of death, of sudden changes or losses, of the myriad personal things we can't control. Channeling the fear of unexpected disasters into expected disasters.
So, when someone launches into bewailing our collective impending doom, would it help to say to yourself "This is just their way of dealing with the fear everyone feels"?
As with the religions that used to be commonplace, they seek validation, connection, and a sense of not being alone before the vast Inevitable.
So, validate: "yeah, it sucks." "Yeah, I get it." "Yes, it is genocide, and it's fucking heartbreaking."
Then, gently counter: "That mutual aid network you built is a great thing. I bet you've changed a lot of lives just through small acts of help where it was needed."
"Because of your advocacy, some kids are running around happy and healthy who might otherwise have been hospitalised. They don't know it, but you helped save them."
Then, redirect: "I'm going to focus on the things I can control or influence. We need to do the work before us now, in helping others, and in getting better people elected in November."
(Doomers of the kind you describe are usually nihilistically cynical about politics, but it's objectively true that one party actively wants to destroy the environment and the other will try, however ineffectively, to save it)
If all else fails: "Supposing you're right and we are all going to die in [doomsday scenario]. Would you rather have spent your days fearing it, or salvaging what joy we can in the time we have?"
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:58 PM on September 21 [15 favorites]
You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
Try exposing them to emotionally inspiring stories of resilient communities surviving disasters, so they can start feeling that there are alternative outcomes.
"The Year Without Sunshine" is a great example of the genre.
In real life, stories about the "Cajun Navy" pitching in during hurricanes are good.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:03 PM on September 21 [2 favorites]
Try exposing them to emotionally inspiring stories of resilient communities surviving disasters, so they can start feeling that there are alternative outcomes.
"The Year Without Sunshine" is a great example of the genre.
In real life, stories about the "Cajun Navy" pitching in during hurricanes are good.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:03 PM on September 21 [2 favorites]
I've had this issue with people in my community, too. In general the re-direct strategies above work pretty well. If the person is someone you consider a close friend, it might be worthwhile to frame things in terms of your needs, e.g. "I agree with what you're saying but I can't focus on that right now or I'll be overwhelmed with anxiety."
Keeping the focus on you and your needs also has the benefit of defusing accusations of "toxic positivity" that can come from reframing sometimes.
posted by rpfields at 5:29 PM on September 21 [1 favorite]
Keeping the focus on you and your needs also has the benefit of defusing accusations of "toxic positivity" that can come from reframing sometimes.
posted by rpfields at 5:29 PM on September 21 [1 favorite]
I too worry about all this stuff, but I also have worried about it since I was little. My strategy was, and continues to be, looking at what you can do right now, in your little piece of the world, to make things better. It gives a sense of agency. And we don’t know how even the little things we do on a day to day basis affect the world. We don’t know if the person we were extra nice to in line at the coffee shop went off and had a really great day and happened to work in a lab where they study cancer and their good mood let them see an idea that will save millions of lives one day. We don’t know if the volunteer group that makes food baskets and added someone’s newly discovered favourite food item in winds up inspiring someone growing up in poverty to be a chef who then creates an NGO to help end child hunger. Like, we truly don’t know the chain reactions of the actions we take that seem not significant enough to tackle our existential problems.
So, I’d just point out the agency we do have, and cause for optimism while not discounting how scary things really are out there. Because they are scary. Existential dread is a reasonable reaction to that. But also, we really don’t know the far reaching impact we can have by just doing what we can for the people around us.
posted by eekernohan at 7:14 AM on September 22 [4 favorites]
So, I’d just point out the agency we do have, and cause for optimism while not discounting how scary things really are out there. Because they are scary. Existential dread is a reasonable reaction to that. But also, we really don’t know the far reaching impact we can have by just doing what we can for the people around us.
posted by eekernohan at 7:14 AM on September 22 [4 favorites]
Therapy for climate grief and climate anxiety is a thing. It sounds like they could use a place to process this and you aren’t it. Is one of the groups you work with suited to having some kind of group (ideally facilitated by a professional) to give people a place to talk about this? You could encourage your doomers to create something like this for themselves.
posted by momus_window at 7:35 AM on September 22 [2 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 7:35 AM on September 22 [2 favorites]
Thanks for asking this question; I see this too and also don't really know what to do with it.
I haven't read it yet BUT a lot of climate buddies I know have recently read and recommended this book. Maybe it will help you (and by proxy, your community) envision some better futures. (I think this is a huge problem, btw: it's really hard for people to imagine what a better version of the world would look like, and I think our leaders are doing a really bad job helping them. Some of the doomerism, I think, comes from that. It's easy to see the ways we're screwed and harder to see the ways we could turn things around.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:04 AM on September 22 [2 favorites]
I haven't read it yet BUT a lot of climate buddies I know have recently read and recommended this book. Maybe it will help you (and by proxy, your community) envision some better futures. (I think this is a huge problem, btw: it's really hard for people to imagine what a better version of the world would look like, and I think our leaders are doing a really bad job helping them. Some of the doomerism, I think, comes from that. It's easy to see the ways we're screwed and harder to see the ways we could turn things around.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 8:04 AM on September 22 [2 favorites]
I say “woah, I get it, but let’s not” in a relatively lighthearted but firm way and then change the subject. It’s a common way of relating in certain circles but it’s a hard no for me. I don’t feel the need to give a long explanation or anything, it’s just not an activity that I want to engage in. And I find that longer explanations can add to embarrassment. YMMV
posted by knobknosher at 3:42 PM on September 22 [3 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 3:42 PM on September 22 [3 favorites]
I've been going with something along the lines of, "I respect that other people get energized for activism by focusing on the doom, but for me, hope and optimism give me fuel. I'm not the right person to have this mode of conversation with now, but I hope you can find others who can get fired up together with you in that way."
posted by Salamandrous at 6:07 PM on September 28 [1 favorite]
posted by Salamandrous at 6:07 PM on September 28 [1 favorite]
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If it's a person you're particularly close to, you may approach this more directly. "Friend, it seems like you're really worried and stressed lately, and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help you."
posted by praemunire at 1:04 PM on September 21 [18 favorites]