Protect this house
September 5, 2024 6:17 AM Subscribe
My father in law is recently widowed after my mother law fought a 9 month battle with stroke complications. During the battle, an old family "friend" named Meg entered the picture to help out. Meg had ulterior motives and now has my father in law, and his considerable assets in her sights. What can we do to protect the family estate?
FIL has a will in place but has already mentioned changing his will and asking my wife what would happen if "a pretty lady" were to move into his house. As more info has come to light, there is zero doubt that Meg is a con artist and is playing a long and cunning game.
If we can convince my father in law, I think we want to move all of his assets out of his name entirely and into a trust controlled by my wife but I am merely guessing. What is the right legal and financial arrangements that need to be made to prevent Meg from getting one cent or one square foot of my father in laws assets. I think our time window is very short where we have enough influence over father in law to put things in place. What we ultimately want to prevent is Meg convincing him to go change his will and driving him to the lawyers office. Obviously we need to persuade father in law of this plan but what is the plan?
Father in law has two children and four grandchildren. He give zero fucks about money and would be open to a fixed income arrangement. How do we paper this?
FIL has a will in place but has already mentioned changing his will and asking my wife what would happen if "a pretty lady" were to move into his house. As more info has come to light, there is zero doubt that Meg is a con artist and is playing a long and cunning game.
If we can convince my father in law, I think we want to move all of his assets out of his name entirely and into a trust controlled by my wife but I am merely guessing. What is the right legal and financial arrangements that need to be made to prevent Meg from getting one cent or one square foot of my father in laws assets. I think our time window is very short where we have enough influence over father in law to put things in place. What we ultimately want to prevent is Meg convincing him to go change his will and driving him to the lawyers office. Obviously we need to persuade father in law of this plan but what is the plan?
Father in law has two children and four grandchildren. He give zero fucks about money and would be open to a fixed income arrangement. How do we paper this?
Yeah, who's the executor? Does anyone have a Power Of Attorney in hand already (as a "just in case")?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:35 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 6:35 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
I think a little more information would be helpful. For instance, is your wife or her sibling currently the executor of their father's estate? Have they met with the lawyer who drew up the will? How is your father-in-law doing cognitively? (The way that question about the "pretty lady" is framed makes me wonder.) Do you think elder abuse is going on? How old is your father-in-law anyway? Does he anticipate moving from the house into some kind of senior residence? Personally I would start with making sure he is OK because it does sound a little worrying. If you have seen signs that this woman is looking to fleece him, the main concern would be whether he can finance the rest of his life.
The good thing is, your father-in-law is communicating with your wife and, from what you quote, he may be aware of possible ramifications.
posted by BibiRose at 6:38 AM on September 5 [1 favorite]
The good thing is, your father-in-law is communicating with your wife and, from what you quote, he may be aware of possible ramifications.
posted by BibiRose at 6:38 AM on September 5 [1 favorite]
If he's getting on in years, you can point out all of the advantages there are to putting his assets into a trust, but as Thorzad has already said, if he's of sound mind and body what he decides to do is his decision to make.
What evidence do you have that this family friend is taking advantage of your father? There are standards for what constitutes elder abuse, but you have to demonstrate that she's causing your father substantive harm, and mere speculation about her motives for being friendly with him isn't enough.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:42 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
What evidence do you have that this family friend is taking advantage of your father? There are standards for what constitutes elder abuse, but you have to demonstrate that she's causing your father substantive harm, and mere speculation about her motives for being friendly with him isn't enough.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:42 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: A good answer to this question assumes we can convince FIL to a plan that for him will be a one way door. He shouldn't be able to come along a year from now after Meg deepens her hooks and say "yeah just kidding I changed my mind". This entire thing falls apart if we can't get him to agree to put whatever legal things in place to execute said plan. I am asking about the legal things we need in place regardless of whatever is already in place. I need a rock solid air tight plan. That's why I am thinking we actually need to transfer everything out of his name entirely. This also assumes his family is operating in good faith and even if someone isn't the arrangement ensures no one gains advantage or gets screwed.
posted by jasondigitized at 6:54 AM on September 5
posted by jasondigitized at 6:54 AM on September 5
If we can convince my father in law, I think we want to move all of his assets out of his name entirely and into a trust controlled by my wife but I am merely guessing.
Just be aware that coercing your father into giving up control of his assets is also the kind of thing a con artist would do. You can't do the very thing you're worried that this family friend is doing, even if you have his best interests at heart. You need to tread carefully and respect his decisions.
Go watch "Knives Out" and ask yourself, "Are we the Thrombey children?"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:56 AM on September 5 [32 favorites]
Just be aware that coercing your father into giving up control of his assets is also the kind of thing a con artist would do. You can't do the very thing you're worried that this family friend is doing, even if you have his best interests at heart. You need to tread carefully and respect his decisions.
Go watch "Knives Out" and ask yourself, "Are we the Thrombey children?"
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:56 AM on September 5 [32 favorites]
Would the father in law consider coming and visiting you or another child for a month or two to get him away from "old memories"? Distractions and something to prevent him from sitting around might help.
posted by Art_Pot at 7:00 AM on September 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Art_Pot at 7:00 AM on September 5 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think you need to be very, very clear with your father in law that what you're asking him to do is make an arrangement he can never change his mind about in the future, that will affect the rest of his life. If you're clear on that, and he's clear on that, and he's on board, then the answer is "go to an estate-planning lawyer together, have your FIL explain what he wants to do, and have the lawyer tell you the best options for trusts, POAs, annuities, etc. to achieve that." You don't make the specific plan, the lawyer does, after understanding what your FIL wants and assessing that your FIL is fully competent to make that decision and not being coerced by you. The conversation to have with your FIL is the big-picture one about values and his wishes, not what specific pieces of paper he needs to sign.
posted by Stacey at 7:15 AM on September 5 [34 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 7:15 AM on September 5 [34 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. Please stick to the OP's question and be sure you're understanding what is being asked.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:47 AM on September 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:47 AM on September 5 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Stacey has it. As long as your FIL is competent, he can do what he likes. It sounds like you have a good relationship with him and I hope you can help him see what this person is trying to do to him. I'm sorry you're going through this, navigating these things is hard enough with someone trying to manipulate your family for their own gain.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 7:59 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Pantengliopoli at 7:59 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
This is another one of those scenarios that is very jurisdiction-dependent; no one can purport to give you advice at a meaningful level of detail without being familiar with the jurisdiction. To be honest, without his fully giving all his assets away (which no worthwhile lawyer would agree to assist in without assurances you can't give) or being declared incompetent, I'm not sure you can accomplish this, at least not in a way that is reasonably later litigation-proof (with you being the one accused of elder abuse). However, again, this will be very state-dependent, so talk to the lawyer.
I think you should think long and hard about why you believe your father is no longer capable of managing his own affairs. (Perhaps there are facts you've understandably left out.) If he is in that bad shape, you literally should be providing him with, or conscientiously arranging for the provision of, daily care as both an ethical and a practical matter. You must understand that if you're happy to leave that to "Meg," while trying to take all his assets away, it doesn't make your intentions look very good.
posted by praemunire at 8:07 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
I think you should think long and hard about why you believe your father is no longer capable of managing his own affairs. (Perhaps there are facts you've understandably left out.) If he is in that bad shape, you literally should be providing him with, or conscientiously arranging for the provision of, daily care as both an ethical and a practical matter. You must understand that if you're happy to leave that to "Meg," while trying to take all his assets away, it doesn't make your intentions look very good.
posted by praemunire at 8:07 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with Stacey that the first step is getting clear about intentions with FIL, and then you need an attorney to implement it.
In terms of step 1, I wouldn't try to convince your FIL that Meg is a con artist. That is a hard sell, because it also means questioning his judgement and his desirability. ("How could that "pretty lady" want to be with an old geezer like you? She must be scamming oldster.")
Another approach is to leave Meg out of it, and appeal to his love for his children and grandchildren. In that scenario what he is putting in place is instruments to ensure that his assets go to his children and grandchildren in the most tax-effective way. That protects your family interests without casting aspersions on someone he's grown fond of, and who he seems to be excited about being with.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:23 AM on September 5 [19 favorites]
In terms of step 1, I wouldn't try to convince your FIL that Meg is a con artist. That is a hard sell, because it also means questioning his judgement and his desirability. ("How could that "pretty lady" want to be with an old geezer like you? She must be scamming oldster.")
Another approach is to leave Meg out of it, and appeal to his love for his children and grandchildren. In that scenario what he is putting in place is instruments to ensure that his assets go to his children and grandchildren in the most tax-effective way. That protects your family interests without casting aspersions on someone he's grown fond of, and who he seems to be excited about being with.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:23 AM on September 5 [19 favorites]
It doesn't sound like FIL is incompetent or deteriorating. If you felt competent to make your own decisions, would you turn over all of your control over your life/finances irrevocably because your family's asking you to? "Falling prey to scam artists" does not technically fall into that category.
I think it sounds like your best shots here are (a) proving that your FIL is incompetent/deteriorating in ways that don't relate to falling for pretty lady's con, or (b) proving Meg is a con artist. The latter might be easier to do if FIL is still pretty competent.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:10 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
I think it sounds like your best shots here are (a) proving that your FIL is incompetent/deteriorating in ways that don't relate to falling for pretty lady's con, or (b) proving Meg is a con artist. The latter might be easier to do if FIL is still pretty competent.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:10 AM on September 5 [3 favorites]
FWIW, a friend of a friend was in a similar situation, and recorded their version of Meg in a pretty major lie, shared the information with their father, and used that to ensure that the father knew of Meg's con and wouldn't marry and transfer assets.
posted by entropone at 9:10 AM on September 5 [7 favorites]
posted by entropone at 9:10 AM on September 5 [7 favorites]
Best answer: My maternal grandmother was a gambler and almost 20 years younger than my grandfather. So as he planned for his estate, he created trusts for all the kids (not grandkids…sigh, as my parents disinherited my sister and I*) and then also one for her, and then anything left over was also hers.
So rather than setting up a single trust, maybe he could take say half his assets and set those up as trusts to be given to the kids on his death, and then maybe a trust for his welfare only, and then everything else is his whether he gives it to the pretty lady or not. I mean - it is all his right now. Maybe suggesting he pre-plans some of the giving is more palatable than “you’ll give us all the control.”
* my feelings on this are very complicated, but my peace has come from accepting that their money is ultimately their money.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:25 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
So rather than setting up a single trust, maybe he could take say half his assets and set those up as trusts to be given to the kids on his death, and then maybe a trust for his welfare only, and then everything else is his whether he gives it to the pretty lady or not. I mean - it is all his right now. Maybe suggesting he pre-plans some of the giving is more palatable than “you’ll give us all the control.”
* my feelings on this are very complicated, but my peace has come from accepting that their money is ultimately their money.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:25 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
Best answer: If the FIL has any suspicions of his own, he could leave a draft document of, say, an irrevocable trust benefitting just the family out in the house where Meg will come across it. If Meg suddenly fades, case closed.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:21 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:21 AM on September 5 [4 favorites]
If we can convince my father in law, I think we want to move all of his assets out of his name entirely and into a trust controlled by my wife
If you were an adult person of sound mind, and you had a relative who wanted to move all of your assets into a trust that they controlled, would you say yes to that? I would not. tbh I can't see why anyone would.
Your stated reason "Because I think you are about to make a choice of which I would disapprove" would make me (and, I think, most people) less likely to agree to that.
It seems to me that your situation is that you are sure you know better than your FIL what is best for him, and so want control over his behavior.
If you are concerned that Meg is going to take advantage of him, it's great to share those concerns! Then let him make his own decisions, as he is full entitled to do.
If this really is a "zero doubt" situation as you say, it should be easy to persuade him. It it is not easy to persuade him- maybe it's not as certain as you judge it to be.
posted by ManInSuit at 1:27 PM on September 5 [6 favorites]
If you were an adult person of sound mind, and you had a relative who wanted to move all of your assets into a trust that they controlled, would you say yes to that? I would not. tbh I can't see why anyone would.
Your stated reason "Because I think you are about to make a choice of which I would disapprove" would make me (and, I think, most people) less likely to agree to that.
It seems to me that your situation is that you are sure you know better than your FIL what is best for him, and so want control over his behavior.
If you are concerned that Meg is going to take advantage of him, it's great to share those concerns! Then let him make his own decisions, as he is full entitled to do.
If this really is a "zero doubt" situation as you say, it should be easy to persuade him. It it is not easy to persuade him- maybe it's not as certain as you judge it to be.
posted by ManInSuit at 1:27 PM on September 5 [6 favorites]
How big is "considerable"? Over $5.6 million?
Current estate/gift tax exemption of $13.6 million will drop to $5.6 million at the end of next year. Anything above the exemption gets taxed at 40% federal plus sometimes even more for state. Rich people, who expect that their estate will be worth more than $5.6 mil, are making irrevocable gifts to their heirs now so they can take advantage of being able to gift an extra $8 million tax free. To qualify, it has to be an irrevocable gift (which is what you want anyway) for the benefit of someone(s) other than the giver which mean your father is giving up all access to the money.
So it only makes sense for the tax perspective if the estate is large enough that the giver can retain enough money for their lifetime and still make a gift large enough that it saves taxes vs. just waiting.
posted by metahawk at 5:47 PM on September 5 [2 favorites]
Current estate/gift tax exemption of $13.6 million will drop to $5.6 million at the end of next year. Anything above the exemption gets taxed at 40% federal plus sometimes even more for state. Rich people, who expect that their estate will be worth more than $5.6 mil, are making irrevocable gifts to their heirs now so they can take advantage of being able to gift an extra $8 million tax free. To qualify, it has to be an irrevocable gift (which is what you want anyway) for the benefit of someone(s) other than the giver which mean your father is giving up all access to the money.
So it only makes sense for the tax perspective if the estate is large enough that the giver can retain enough money for their lifetime and still make a gift large enough that it saves taxes vs. just waiting.
posted by metahawk at 5:47 PM on September 5 [2 favorites]
My mom went through this with our grandma, who is 78 and highly susceptible. Grandma was lovebombed and conned by a young man in their 20s from Nigeria. She eventually flew to Nigeria, married the guy, brought him back to the US, assisted him in defrauding other seniors/traffiking goods, and has since divorced. She lost everything.
We knew it was a scam from the start, tried everything we could do to help but because she is an adult, she can ultimately spend her money however she likes. Good luck to you. That type of person gets their hooks in deep and fast, if you misstep in how you approach, you only push them further into this person.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 8:31 PM on September 5 [4 favorites]
We knew it was a scam from the start, tried everything we could do to help but because she is an adult, she can ultimately spend her money however she likes. Good luck to you. That type of person gets their hooks in deep and fast, if you misstep in how you approach, you only push them further into this person.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 8:31 PM on September 5 [4 favorites]
> Current estate/gift tax exemption of $13.6 million will drop to $5.6 million at the end of next year
No one is smart enough to make a prediction like this.
posted by yclipse at 7:56 PM on September 6
No one is smart enough to make a prediction like this.
posted by yclipse at 7:56 PM on September 6
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Unfortunately, as long as FIL is of sound mind, he can do as he pleases with his estate, unless some sort of nefarious scheming on the part od this new woman can be proven.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:25 AM on September 5 [15 favorites]