Don’t know how to feel about partner’s small lies and where to go next
September 2, 2024 4:34 PM Subscribe
My partner and I have been dating for 5 years, but I recently found out he told a lie about the content of a racy social media channel he follows and donates to, and also about his porn usage. I emphasized that honesty was very important in the beginning of our relationship, and now I don’t know where to go next, and how big of a deal this is in relationships.
My partner (M, 40s) and I have been together for around 5 years. In the early days of dating, I emphasized to him that honesty is very important to me, and we also talked about various viewpoints and boundaries. One of the topics that came up was around porn usage. I tried to approach it from a flexible and positive stance (learned from previous relationships about communicating in a more open way around sensitive topics, and tried extra hard to apply that here), that I understood most people watch porn and there’s varying views around it, that my personal preference/boundaries was to not have porn usage in a relationship, and wanted to know what his views were. He had watched porn quite a lot throughout his life, but he said it was fine with him and agreed/promised he would no longer watch it. I said if something ever comes up in the future and he feels like it’s an issue, to please tell me and we can talk about it and maybe we can adjust instead of hiding it etc.
Things were mostly fine for a few years but recently there was an incident where I realized he had lied/omitted the truth. There’s this social media channel he’s always followed. They’re borderline explicit, but mostly a comedy channel. Though their content is mostly sexual humor (since their popularity with their users and income is mostly from the sexual stuff around the female cast), just borderline enough to not get banned. It bothered me a bit in the beginning but my partner said he just watches it because it’s funny, so I didn’t mind too much. Recently, I randomly read up that one of the social media channels I watch was talking about how much money they make (surprisingly a lot), so I was curious about other channels and just googled the ones I knew about (a few of mine and a few of his). In one of the reddit threads about how much the comedy channel makes, there were a ton of comments that were just dudes asking for more explicit content from the female cast, saying they would pay even more for it etc. (the main discussion was also someone curious how much the channel makes, and then went into how the sexual content boosts their earnings). I remembered my partner said he is a tiered subscriber and actually pays money each month, but he had said it was just that he wanted to support creators that he likes. I felt a little uneasy about the reddit comments, so I asked him if there was any inappropriate content for paid subscribers (since the thread mentioned paid ones get special access to certain videos). He said no it’s just bloopers and funny things like that and brushed it off. But the way he said it sounded weird. So I ended up looking up online (pretty easy to find) what the special videos were, and turns out it was actually more explicit stuff like the women play games and strip down to their underwear, or things related to sex toys etc. I confronted him, and he admitted he did lie. We had a big argument and I told him if he was lying about anything else it would eventually come out, and whether he had been watching porn. He then finally admitted that yes he had also been watching porn (but he said only a few times a year for stress relief).
Afterwards, he did seem very remorseful, and tried to proactively repair things, but I’m finding it hard to see him and the relationship the same way again. He did say he has issues with communication and talking about things, which I can see from the times I met his family - they pretty much don’t even ask or communicate about normal things like “so how many times do you want to come for dinner when you’re visiting our city” etc and everyone just makes weird assumptions and then gets resentful. He always had a lot of trouble talking about sex and more recently mentioned there was some shame around masturbation etc growing up. The next day he proactively said he had unsubscribed from the channel and wouldn’t watch it again, and since we had talked about therapy before he said he wanted to try getting therapy to find out why he lied and how to work on fixing that.
Though the porn itself wouldn’t normally bother me that much and is more a secondary concern (if at all by itself), there’s another factor that is relevant in that we haven’t had PIV sex in the whole 5 years we’ve been dating. We’ve done other things, but without getting into detail (mechanical), we’ve never been able to have PIV sex. I tried for 3+ years to get things going, and tried to be as positive as I could - I found a funny sex documentary on Netflix that I thought we could watch together, bought a sex book that I thought we could read together, tried to talk about it with him but trying to make it fun and positive experience (and not too often either since I didn’t want to overwhelm him, only bring it up once every few months in the beginning and then started to gradually give up). But he never really talked about it back, and it felt like trying to talk to a wall. There’s a part of me that thinks, this can’t be normal even with maybe an innocent explanation like performance anxiety etc., but after 5 years I guess I feel quite tired from trying and also this porn usage just felt like salt in the wound.
On top of that, the primary thing I am having trouble dealing with is the lying part. The trust is just broken, and now there’s always the thought that if he’s ok with lying about smaller things, what big things will he lie about. Especially if it feels like the pattern is that if there’s something he wants to conflicts with something I want, he’ll lie so he can continue to do what he wants. Or he’ll lie so I’ll stay in a relationship with him or avoid conflict, even when he knows it violates my boundaries/breaks a promise, etc. And my mind starts to think about what other things might’ve been going on, like a female coworker that he’s super close with but says nothing is going on, etc. It’s not the specific thing or incident, just that the trust is no longer there. And I don’t know if I’m overreacting, is it normal for partners to lie about porn and racy videos? Is this something we just work through or is it a dealbreaker? Can the trust be fully repaired or is the damage too much?
Aside from all this, he has many good qualities. He can be very sweet, we have a stable little life together, and when we have the rare conflict (outside of this incident), he shows that he cares and tries to make things right. A previous ex would just gaslight me whenever I tried to talk about anything, so I had thought this was a healthier relationship. If it’s something good, I don’t want to throw it away over something small or common. But at the same time, maybe lies like this are reasonable dealbreakers. I just don’t know anymore and I’ve been second guessing myself. I thought I could get over it since he was going to therapy, but I’ve been having trouble trusting and now whenever something slightly threatening comes up (like female coworker, or racy YouTube feed recommendation etc), my mind starts to wonder.
My partner (M, 40s) and I have been together for around 5 years. In the early days of dating, I emphasized to him that honesty is very important to me, and we also talked about various viewpoints and boundaries. One of the topics that came up was around porn usage. I tried to approach it from a flexible and positive stance (learned from previous relationships about communicating in a more open way around sensitive topics, and tried extra hard to apply that here), that I understood most people watch porn and there’s varying views around it, that my personal preference/boundaries was to not have porn usage in a relationship, and wanted to know what his views were. He had watched porn quite a lot throughout his life, but he said it was fine with him and agreed/promised he would no longer watch it. I said if something ever comes up in the future and he feels like it’s an issue, to please tell me and we can talk about it and maybe we can adjust instead of hiding it etc.
Things were mostly fine for a few years but recently there was an incident where I realized he had lied/omitted the truth. There’s this social media channel he’s always followed. They’re borderline explicit, but mostly a comedy channel. Though their content is mostly sexual humor (since their popularity with their users and income is mostly from the sexual stuff around the female cast), just borderline enough to not get banned. It bothered me a bit in the beginning but my partner said he just watches it because it’s funny, so I didn’t mind too much. Recently, I randomly read up that one of the social media channels I watch was talking about how much money they make (surprisingly a lot), so I was curious about other channels and just googled the ones I knew about (a few of mine and a few of his). In one of the reddit threads about how much the comedy channel makes, there were a ton of comments that were just dudes asking for more explicit content from the female cast, saying they would pay even more for it etc. (the main discussion was also someone curious how much the channel makes, and then went into how the sexual content boosts their earnings). I remembered my partner said he is a tiered subscriber and actually pays money each month, but he had said it was just that he wanted to support creators that he likes. I felt a little uneasy about the reddit comments, so I asked him if there was any inappropriate content for paid subscribers (since the thread mentioned paid ones get special access to certain videos). He said no it’s just bloopers and funny things like that and brushed it off. But the way he said it sounded weird. So I ended up looking up online (pretty easy to find) what the special videos were, and turns out it was actually more explicit stuff like the women play games and strip down to their underwear, or things related to sex toys etc. I confronted him, and he admitted he did lie. We had a big argument and I told him if he was lying about anything else it would eventually come out, and whether he had been watching porn. He then finally admitted that yes he had also been watching porn (but he said only a few times a year for stress relief).
Afterwards, he did seem very remorseful, and tried to proactively repair things, but I’m finding it hard to see him and the relationship the same way again. He did say he has issues with communication and talking about things, which I can see from the times I met his family - they pretty much don’t even ask or communicate about normal things like “so how many times do you want to come for dinner when you’re visiting our city” etc and everyone just makes weird assumptions and then gets resentful. He always had a lot of trouble talking about sex and more recently mentioned there was some shame around masturbation etc growing up. The next day he proactively said he had unsubscribed from the channel and wouldn’t watch it again, and since we had talked about therapy before he said he wanted to try getting therapy to find out why he lied and how to work on fixing that.
Though the porn itself wouldn’t normally bother me that much and is more a secondary concern (if at all by itself), there’s another factor that is relevant in that we haven’t had PIV sex in the whole 5 years we’ve been dating. We’ve done other things, but without getting into detail (mechanical), we’ve never been able to have PIV sex. I tried for 3+ years to get things going, and tried to be as positive as I could - I found a funny sex documentary on Netflix that I thought we could watch together, bought a sex book that I thought we could read together, tried to talk about it with him but trying to make it fun and positive experience (and not too often either since I didn’t want to overwhelm him, only bring it up once every few months in the beginning and then started to gradually give up). But he never really talked about it back, and it felt like trying to talk to a wall. There’s a part of me that thinks, this can’t be normal even with maybe an innocent explanation like performance anxiety etc., but after 5 years I guess I feel quite tired from trying and also this porn usage just felt like salt in the wound.
On top of that, the primary thing I am having trouble dealing with is the lying part. The trust is just broken, and now there’s always the thought that if he’s ok with lying about smaller things, what big things will he lie about. Especially if it feels like the pattern is that if there’s something he wants to conflicts with something I want, he’ll lie so he can continue to do what he wants. Or he’ll lie so I’ll stay in a relationship with him or avoid conflict, even when he knows it violates my boundaries/breaks a promise, etc. And my mind starts to think about what other things might’ve been going on, like a female coworker that he’s super close with but says nothing is going on, etc. It’s not the specific thing or incident, just that the trust is no longer there. And I don’t know if I’m overreacting, is it normal for partners to lie about porn and racy videos? Is this something we just work through or is it a dealbreaker? Can the trust be fully repaired or is the damage too much?
Aside from all this, he has many good qualities. He can be very sweet, we have a stable little life together, and when we have the rare conflict (outside of this incident), he shows that he cares and tries to make things right. A previous ex would just gaslight me whenever I tried to talk about anything, so I had thought this was a healthier relationship. If it’s something good, I don’t want to throw it away over something small or common. But at the same time, maybe lies like this are reasonable dealbreakers. I just don’t know anymore and I’ve been second guessing myself. I thought I could get over it since he was going to therapy, but I’ve been having trouble trusting and now whenever something slightly threatening comes up (like female coworker, or racy YouTube feed recommendation etc), my mind starts to wonder.
Talk about burying the lede. Five years without ever having intercourse. You don’t write about whether the two of you have any other physical/sexual connection, but it’s pretty clear this one is important to you and you are hurt by its absence. And also his complete lack of interest or initiative in making it work.
I think what stings so much about this episode is that it perfectly demonstrates that he is capable of being proactive about his sexual interests. He just isn’t willing or able to do that about having sex with you.
Often in questions like this, the writer goes to great lengths to describe how careful and thoughtful and sensitive they have been toward their problematic partner. You do that too. I always want to ask, why do you feel obliged to hold yourself to such a high standard of sensitivity and thoughtfulness when you don’t hold him to the same standard? Don’t you deserve as much effort and care as you show toward him? Why do you settle for less?
posted by Sublimity at 5:00 PM on September 2 [56 favorites]
I think what stings so much about this episode is that it perfectly demonstrates that he is capable of being proactive about his sexual interests. He just isn’t willing or able to do that about having sex with you.
Often in questions like this, the writer goes to great lengths to describe how careful and thoughtful and sensitive they have been toward their problematic partner. You do that too. I always want to ask, why do you feel obliged to hold yourself to such a high standard of sensitivity and thoughtfulness when you don’t hold him to the same standard? Don’t you deserve as much effort and care as you show toward him? Why do you settle for less?
posted by Sublimity at 5:00 PM on September 2 [56 favorites]
How is he at asserting himself within the relationship in general? Is he able to tell you things you don't want to hear? My concern here would be about the kind of conflict avoidance where someone pretends everything is okay until one day it turns out that it is very much not.
The lying about this topic, I get. Especially if he has shame around sex and masturbation, especially if the sexual difficulties the two of you have had have been contentious or painful in your relationship. Personally I feel pretty strongly that nobody should be trying to determine anyone else's relationship to porn, and would really not be okay with a partner investigating and confronting me about my media consumption. Feeling monitored and judged could definitely contribute to shame, and shame often feeds directly into secrecy.
Also, my sexual relationship with myself (i.e. masturbation, fantasy) functions separately from my partnered sex life, and I think that is often the case. It makes total sense that that's emotionally hard to accept if you're not getting a specific type of physical intimacy you desire, but if he knows that you believe on some level that if he's masturbating, especially to porn, he should also be able to overcome whatever sexual dysfunction he's experiencing with partnered PIV sex, there's a level of pressure or even sparing you pain there that also makes sense.
It's good that he's in therapy, but is couples therapy an option here? If this is a relationship you value, it sounds like there is a lot that could be done to improve communication on both ends. There's a certain fuzziness in this question that also makes me wonder if you have pursued individual therapy for yourself, or if that's a possibility.
posted by wormtales at 5:10 PM on September 2 [9 favorites]
The lying about this topic, I get. Especially if he has shame around sex and masturbation, especially if the sexual difficulties the two of you have had have been contentious or painful in your relationship. Personally I feel pretty strongly that nobody should be trying to determine anyone else's relationship to porn, and would really not be okay with a partner investigating and confronting me about my media consumption. Feeling monitored and judged could definitely contribute to shame, and shame often feeds directly into secrecy.
Also, my sexual relationship with myself (i.e. masturbation, fantasy) functions separately from my partnered sex life, and I think that is often the case. It makes total sense that that's emotionally hard to accept if you're not getting a specific type of physical intimacy you desire, but if he knows that you believe on some level that if he's masturbating, especially to porn, he should also be able to overcome whatever sexual dysfunction he's experiencing with partnered PIV sex, there's a level of pressure or even sparing you pain there that also makes sense.
It's good that he's in therapy, but is couples therapy an option here? If this is a relationship you value, it sounds like there is a lot that could be done to improve communication on both ends. There's a certain fuzziness in this question that also makes me wonder if you have pursued individual therapy for yourself, or if that's a possibility.
posted by wormtales at 5:10 PM on September 2 [9 favorites]
Assuming that both of you have the physical capacity for it, if you haven't had PIV sex in five years in a heterosexual relationship, it's very unlikely ever to happen. Forgive me for saying it, but he's not sexually attracted to you. It wouldn't matter if you didn't care--but you clearly do, and I think that's why this otherwise only moderate transgression (it's not good that he lied to you, but I think most people these days would tolerate their partner looking at something as mild as women in their underwear as long as they were discreet about it, I'm not even sure everyone would class that as actual porn) is bothering you so much.
You should sit down with yourself and reflect on whether, even if he never looked at porn again and never betrayed your trust in other ways, you would be happy in a relationship in which you never had PIV sex. Because that's most likely the best-case scenario here. Unless you can enthusiastically say "yes," I fear you need to break up and find someone who actually desires you.
posted by praemunire at 5:12 PM on September 2 [21 favorites]
You should sit down with yourself and reflect on whether, even if he never looked at porn again and never betrayed your trust in other ways, you would be happy in a relationship in which you never had PIV sex. Because that's most likely the best-case scenario here. Unless you can enthusiastically say "yes," I fear you need to break up and find someone who actually desires you.
posted by praemunire at 5:12 PM on September 2 [21 favorites]
I dunno. I a cis lady have been with my cis male partner for a decade. I can only say that there are straight men who don't find porn or strip clubs more appealing than their partners. Let this dude go and find one of them
posted by Saucywench at 5:23 PM on September 2 [10 favorites]
posted by Saucywench at 5:23 PM on September 2 [10 favorites]
It sounds like there is some fundamental sexual incompatibility going on. That, combined with the damaged trust and heightened anxiety means you both have an extremely steep road to climb to get to some kind of relationship equilibrium. Up to you to decide if it’s worth it.
I just want to say that the whole no porn in a relationship thing really irks me. For the most part, porn is an individual thing, a private activity. You might as well make declarations about a partner’s choice of toothpaste. Porn, and erotica in general, has been unfairly demonized for a very long time. Porn can be a partner activity too, but much like masturbation it’s really dependent on the individual if they like to engage with those things for their own pleasure and relaxation. If it affects sex with their partner, or their feelings of guilt or shame, or their financial solvency, the problem is not with the porn but with something else, like their relationship or their culture or their impulse control. I am not saying that any of what’s going on with your partner is your fault! But I am saying that his reluctance to talk to you about things may likely stem from a combination of your stated preferences and the cultural shame around porn usage in his family and wider demographic.
If you guys do decide together that your relationship is worth all the hard work it will take to get to a place of trust and openness, you’re going to have to figure out what you need sexually from him, and he from you. Is penetrative sex important to you? It might be that actually the important thing is physical closeness, or orgasms, or heightened sensuality during special moments together. If it is the penetration, there are ways to experience that too, like with toys, or medication. It is entirely okay for either of you to not want any of these individual things, too. What it comes down to is discussing them frankly and deciding if there is enough compatibility and willingness to compromise to move on together or not.
posted by Mizu at 5:24 PM on September 2 [23 favorites]
I just want to say that the whole no porn in a relationship thing really irks me. For the most part, porn is an individual thing, a private activity. You might as well make declarations about a partner’s choice of toothpaste. Porn, and erotica in general, has been unfairly demonized for a very long time. Porn can be a partner activity too, but much like masturbation it’s really dependent on the individual if they like to engage with those things for their own pleasure and relaxation. If it affects sex with their partner, or their feelings of guilt or shame, or their financial solvency, the problem is not with the porn but with something else, like their relationship or their culture or their impulse control. I am not saying that any of what’s going on with your partner is your fault! But I am saying that his reluctance to talk to you about things may likely stem from a combination of your stated preferences and the cultural shame around porn usage in his family and wider demographic.
If you guys do decide together that your relationship is worth all the hard work it will take to get to a place of trust and openness, you’re going to have to figure out what you need sexually from him, and he from you. Is penetrative sex important to you? It might be that actually the important thing is physical closeness, or orgasms, or heightened sensuality during special moments together. If it is the penetration, there are ways to experience that too, like with toys, or medication. It is entirely okay for either of you to not want any of these individual things, too. What it comes down to is discussing them frankly and deciding if there is enough compatibility and willingness to compromise to move on together or not.
posted by Mizu at 5:24 PM on September 2 [23 favorites]
Girl. He is lying to you, spending money on porn (dumbass), making you tie yourself in knots around him, and he isn't even fucking you.
Bye Felicia.
posted by phunniemee at 5:26 PM on September 2 [45 favorites]
Bye Felicia.
posted by phunniemee at 5:26 PM on September 2 [45 favorites]
Seconding phunniemee. DTMFA. Like, for real.
posted by VyanSelei at 5:46 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
posted by VyanSelei at 5:46 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
You’re settling, and for something that really isn’t great. Don’t.
posted by throwitawayurthegarbageman at 7:09 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
posted by throwitawayurthegarbageman at 7:09 PM on September 2 [7 favorites]
I thought about putting in some advice in a kinder voice, but phunniemee really has the answer here. I am impressed you have lasted this long. Go meet someone else who can make you happy!
posted by panhopticon at 7:39 PM on September 2
posted by panhopticon at 7:39 PM on September 2
Given the timeframe you state that you've been together, and assuming you only have the one partner (polyamory wasn't mentioned) then is this the same partner from your previous question who has repeatedly insulted/demeaned you AND is bad at apologizing?
Drop this dude like a sack of hammers, posthaste. He's a walking menu of red flags. I'm so sorry that you've been treated this way for 5 years- there are plenty of people out there who can be a better and equal partner to you. You deserve better than this.
posted by rachaelfaith at 9:47 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
Drop this dude like a sack of hammers, posthaste. He's a walking menu of red flags. I'm so sorry that you've been treated this way for 5 years- there are plenty of people out there who can be a better and equal partner to you. You deserve better than this.
posted by rachaelfaith at 9:47 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Adding some more info to answer some of the questions in the comments:
Do the two of us have any other physical/sexual connection?
- I was on the fence about getting into details but if it sheds some more light, we have no issues with him getting hard while we kiss, snuggle etc. And hand jobs (for both of us) is mostly what we have been doing. The recurring problem is whenever he's about to penetrate, he goes soft. He says it's performance anxiety and maybe ED because he's in his 40s, and his doctor prescribed him viagra but I have been holding back on that because I was a little worried about the side effects, and didn't want it to be a bandaid (substitute for actually communicating and getting to the root of it). But he hasn't really been able to talk about it in a way that feels transparent, and I can't shake the feeling there is some other big reason he's not telling me. I had wondered if he was gay, or only into a certain fetish or something but the problem is the conversation always feels like there is something missing. He has said he also doesn't like french kissing, which I am a little sad about because I love french kissing. Not comparing or anything, but also wanted to also point out that I have experienced other relationships with a lot of chemistry where the sex and kissing was enjoyed by both parties so this isn't the norm for me.
- I don't really know if this should make a difference, but I do stay in shape (go to the gym, am at a slim weight), and have continued interest from others every once in awhile (which I don't indulge and do turn down), and am a few years younger than him. He continues to tell me he finds me attractive. Other than the sex thing, he has consistently been caring and tried hard to make the relationship work (proactively tries to fix disagreements we have, making cute little gestures, being emotionally supportive, enjoy spending time together etc), so I was having a lot of trouble reconciling why someone would go to so much effort to be with someone if they're not attracted to them.
How is he at asserting himself in general/telling you things you don't want to hear?
- I thought he was ok at first because for everyday things like discussing how to split chores etc he's able to negotiate and ask for things. But in retrospect I think for the important things it's not great, like (and his family seems to do this) he'll just go ahead and do something without asking even when it affects both of us, and when we talked about it he said he never learned that kind of communication and to please be patient with him as he is trying to improve. I didn't realize this til later but I think he also does try to tell me things I want to hear especially to keep me in the relationship, like when we first started dating I said I really like being outdoors and hiking and for a relationship would like to ideally share that activity and go hiking frequently, like every week or so. At the time, he told me he also loves hiking and would definitely want to go hiking or take walks all the time. But after I got to know him, it turned out he actually doesn't like the outdoors or hiking, and prefers to just stay home and watch tv/play video games and eat. I have to (don't want to use the word beg) but request to go hiking quite a bit, but we only go a few times a year. I know I can go by myself or with friends but it was something I'd hoped to share with a partner, and again not so much about the hiking but another example of the misrepresentation (and not asserting who he truly is/wants seemingly so I'll like him/continue dating him).
Have you been in therapy yourself, is couples therapy an option?
- I have been in therapy before but previous to when I met/started dating this current partner. I had been thinking I might need to start going again to sort these things out. We had discussed couples therapy, even his current therapist strongly recommended it. So it is an option, but I was also debating if it's worth it. He cares about his work a lot, and both our jobs are also tiring and stressful, so I guess that might have affected trying to find mental energy for therapy but I know that's not an excuse if we really value the relationship.
posted by bellalia at 9:55 PM on September 2
Do the two of us have any other physical/sexual connection?
- I was on the fence about getting into details but if it sheds some more light, we have no issues with him getting hard while we kiss, snuggle etc. And hand jobs (for both of us) is mostly what we have been doing. The recurring problem is whenever he's about to penetrate, he goes soft. He says it's performance anxiety and maybe ED because he's in his 40s, and his doctor prescribed him viagra but I have been holding back on that because I was a little worried about the side effects, and didn't want it to be a bandaid (substitute for actually communicating and getting to the root of it). But he hasn't really been able to talk about it in a way that feels transparent, and I can't shake the feeling there is some other big reason he's not telling me. I had wondered if he was gay, or only into a certain fetish or something but the problem is the conversation always feels like there is something missing. He has said he also doesn't like french kissing, which I am a little sad about because I love french kissing. Not comparing or anything, but also wanted to also point out that I have experienced other relationships with a lot of chemistry where the sex and kissing was enjoyed by both parties so this isn't the norm for me.
- I don't really know if this should make a difference, but I do stay in shape (go to the gym, am at a slim weight), and have continued interest from others every once in awhile (which I don't indulge and do turn down), and am a few years younger than him. He continues to tell me he finds me attractive. Other than the sex thing, he has consistently been caring and tried hard to make the relationship work (proactively tries to fix disagreements we have, making cute little gestures, being emotionally supportive, enjoy spending time together etc), so I was having a lot of trouble reconciling why someone would go to so much effort to be with someone if they're not attracted to them.
How is he at asserting himself in general/telling you things you don't want to hear?
- I thought he was ok at first because for everyday things like discussing how to split chores etc he's able to negotiate and ask for things. But in retrospect I think for the important things it's not great, like (and his family seems to do this) he'll just go ahead and do something without asking even when it affects both of us, and when we talked about it he said he never learned that kind of communication and to please be patient with him as he is trying to improve. I didn't realize this til later but I think he also does try to tell me things I want to hear especially to keep me in the relationship, like when we first started dating I said I really like being outdoors and hiking and for a relationship would like to ideally share that activity and go hiking frequently, like every week or so. At the time, he told me he also loves hiking and would definitely want to go hiking or take walks all the time. But after I got to know him, it turned out he actually doesn't like the outdoors or hiking, and prefers to just stay home and watch tv/play video games and eat. I have to (don't want to use the word beg) but request to go hiking quite a bit, but we only go a few times a year. I know I can go by myself or with friends but it was something I'd hoped to share with a partner, and again not so much about the hiking but another example of the misrepresentation (and not asserting who he truly is/wants seemingly so I'll like him/continue dating him).
Have you been in therapy yourself, is couples therapy an option?
- I have been in therapy before but previous to when I met/started dating this current partner. I had been thinking I might need to start going again to sort these things out. We had discussed couples therapy, even his current therapist strongly recommended it. So it is an option, but I was also debating if it's worth it. He cares about his work a lot, and both our jobs are also tiring and stressful, so I guess that might have affected trying to find mental energy for therapy but I know that's not an excuse if we really value the relationship.
posted by bellalia at 9:55 PM on September 2
Response by poster: More replies to questions:
- In a previous post I did ask about one time when he said some insulting things. But it only happened a couple times a year, and he has tried hard to improve (it hasn't happened since I posted that question). Maybe that's still one too many times, but just to clarify that it's more of a rare instance and he worked hard to stop doing it.
Also, I know this is probably more something to address in therapy, but part of the reason I felt like I should try to make this one work is that this relationship is still the "best" that I've been treated in all my relationships (including family, which is a whole other thing and probably why I find myself in these situations). I don't know if that's sad or not. I know people aren't perfect and relationships take work, but I can't tell if my gauge is broken and if this counts as a "this can be worked on" relationship or my standards should be higher. I have dated a lot in the last 10+ years (before I met this current one), and I felt like if in 10+ years I haven't been able to even meet anyone who treats me better than this, then I should try to make it work (and nearing 40 as a woman makes it seem like being single again/dating will be very difficult/impossible).
posted by bellalia at 10:07 PM on September 2
- In a previous post I did ask about one time when he said some insulting things. But it only happened a couple times a year, and he has tried hard to improve (it hasn't happened since I posted that question). Maybe that's still one too many times, but just to clarify that it's more of a rare instance and he worked hard to stop doing it.
Also, I know this is probably more something to address in therapy, but part of the reason I felt like I should try to make this one work is that this relationship is still the "best" that I've been treated in all my relationships (including family, which is a whole other thing and probably why I find myself in these situations). I don't know if that's sad or not. I know people aren't perfect and relationships take work, but I can't tell if my gauge is broken and if this counts as a "this can be worked on" relationship or my standards should be higher. I have dated a lot in the last 10+ years (before I met this current one), and I felt like if in 10+ years I haven't been able to even meet anyone who treats me better than this, then I should try to make it work (and nearing 40 as a woman makes it seem like being single again/dating will be very difficult/impossible).
posted by bellalia at 10:07 PM on September 2
Personally I think it's healthy for a person to have a part of their sexuality that's just for themself and not tied to their partner, which often means using porn. So with that in mind, I consider other people's use of porn to be a private thing just for them, and none of my business (as long as the porn involves consenting adults etc etc).
I certainly don't like being lied to, but the best way not to be lied to is to not ask people to make promises they can't keep. People are much better at lying than they are at changing. So if you're going to ask a porn user to make a promise regarding their porn use... well, you're gonna get lied to, sorry to say! I think your request was unreasonable.
BUT omg not having PIV sex in 5 years when you clearly want to, and not even kissing the way you like? That's not cool! And it's not going to improve. I hope you dump this guy and go find someone who you're physically compatible with who makes you feel special and rocks your world!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:05 PM on September 2 [15 favorites]
I certainly don't like being lied to, but the best way not to be lied to is to not ask people to make promises they can't keep. People are much better at lying than they are at changing. So if you're going to ask a porn user to make a promise regarding their porn use... well, you're gonna get lied to, sorry to say! I think your request was unreasonable.
BUT omg not having PIV sex in 5 years when you clearly want to, and not even kissing the way you like? That's not cool! And it's not going to improve. I hope you dump this guy and go find someone who you're physically compatible with who makes you feel special and rocks your world!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:05 PM on September 2 [15 favorites]
It’s funny. No piv sex would be a shrug whatever situation for me, but no French kissing?? Immediate dealbreaker. I can imagine a life without a long term sexual partner at all more easily than having one who won’t kiss me with tongue. This is just to say, everyone is different and needs different stuff. Your expectations are not wildly unusual or completely perfect, but they are entirely okay to have. The more you describe yourself the more I am certain that you will absolutely be able to connect with someone else who meets your expectations, who you can trust, and who you can have fantastic sex and make out with. I really don’t think your age will impact this much at all. Maybe you can adjust expectations about a partner’s private activities, or work some more about what appropriate boundaries are, in therapy and with friendships and family relationships going forward. But you deserve someone better than a man who won’t kiss you the way you like. He also deserves someone who doesn’t induce performance anxiety and who won’t want to kiss him in a way he doesn’t want. It is absolutely fine if neither of you are that person for the other.
posted by Mizu at 12:13 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 12:13 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
Please don’t settle for this.
It sounds like you have done a great job of growing vis a vis relationships—that you won’t tolerate being treated poorly, that you advocate for yourself, that you approach problems with a collaborative spirit. That’s fantastic and you rightly should be proud about that. Take those skills and use them to find something better.
Just because this is the best relationship you’ve had so far doesn’t mean that it’s the right one for you. Believe me, you still have a lot of life ahead of you if you’re not yet 40 and there will be plenty of opportunities to find someone who both treats you well and loves to fuck you. If anecdata helps, I divorced in my mid forties as a fat lady with two kids, had no trouble dating or finding lovers (even with very high standards!), and took my time to find someone who was the right fit for a lifetime partnership. Got engaged this summer at 54.
You won’t regret holding out for better.
posted by Sublimity at 4:36 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you have done a great job of growing vis a vis relationships—that you won’t tolerate being treated poorly, that you advocate for yourself, that you approach problems with a collaborative spirit. That’s fantastic and you rightly should be proud about that. Take those skills and use them to find something better.
Just because this is the best relationship you’ve had so far doesn’t mean that it’s the right one for you. Believe me, you still have a lot of life ahead of you if you’re not yet 40 and there will be plenty of opportunities to find someone who both treats you well and loves to fuck you. If anecdata helps, I divorced in my mid forties as a fat lady with two kids, had no trouble dating or finding lovers (even with very high standards!), and took my time to find someone who was the right fit for a lifetime partnership. Got engaged this summer at 54.
You won’t regret holding out for better.
posted by Sublimity at 4:36 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
his doctor prescribed him viagra but I have been holding back on that because I was a little worried about the side effects, and didn't want it to be a bandaid
Is he worried about the side effects? What if this is the best solution? Why is this something you get to veto in any case?
It sounds like you want a partner who does not watch porn, does not have ED / use Viagra, does not have any hangups about sex, and wants to french kiss. This is not your man. You don't have unreasonable wants, but they are not universal and he could definitely find a more compatible sexual partner. As could you.
I think you are asking much too much in expecting him to change to meet your needs. The only thing he would objectively benefit from working on is his reluctance to assert his own preferences. Everything else you mention is just a matter of personal taste. Let him find someone who is a closer match for what he really wants, and go and find yourself someone who matches what you really want. This is not the only relationship possibility for you.
posted by plonkee at 4:48 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
Is he worried about the side effects? What if this is the best solution? Why is this something you get to veto in any case?
It sounds like you want a partner who does not watch porn, does not have ED / use Viagra, does not have any hangups about sex, and wants to french kiss. This is not your man. You don't have unreasonable wants, but they are not universal and he could definitely find a more compatible sexual partner. As could you.
I think you are asking much too much in expecting him to change to meet your needs. The only thing he would objectively benefit from working on is his reluctance to assert his own preferences. Everything else you mention is just a matter of personal taste. Let him find someone who is a closer match for what he really wants, and go and find yourself someone who matches what you really want. This is not the only relationship possibility for you.
posted by plonkee at 4:48 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
I have been in therapy before but previous to when I met/started dating this current partner. I had been thinking I might need to start going again to sort these things out.
Do it. Reading your followup and rereading the original question, the degree to which your feelings do not show up as a part of this is striking. There is a ton of factual description, there are many thoughts about how you have or should handle one thing or another, but only the mildest expression of displeasure. I say that not to judge but to observe that the emotional tenor of your response doesn't seem to match the situation and it makes me wonder if you're allowing yourself to actually have an authentic (and authentically messy) emotional experience of the relationship or if you're doing a lot of work to keep your words/behaviors/opinions where they 'should' be. This guy has a lot of work to do but I think you would be well served to dig in on your end, too, even if you don't ultimately stay together.
Also noting that ctrl+f 'love' indicates that you love french kissing, but there's nothing here about loving your partner, even when you are describing his positive qualities.
posted by wormtales at 5:38 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
Do it. Reading your followup and rereading the original question, the degree to which your feelings do not show up as a part of this is striking. There is a ton of factual description, there are many thoughts about how you have or should handle one thing or another, but only the mildest expression of displeasure. I say that not to judge but to observe that the emotional tenor of your response doesn't seem to match the situation and it makes me wonder if you're allowing yourself to actually have an authentic (and authentically messy) emotional experience of the relationship or if you're doing a lot of work to keep your words/behaviors/opinions where they 'should' be. This guy has a lot of work to do but I think you would be well served to dig in on your end, too, even if you don't ultimately stay together.
Also noting that ctrl+f 'love' indicates that you love french kissing, but there's nothing here about loving your partner, even when you are describing his positive qualities.
posted by wormtales at 5:38 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
Combined with the previous question, I'm horrified. You need to seriously step back and take a look at all you are not receiving in this relationship, on a basic respect level.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:10 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:10 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
I agree with wormtales about the emotionlessness and the absence of love—had noticed those too.
When I was getting divorced, I needed to take a class for divorcing parents. The instructor said that when relationships fail it’s often possible to look back and recognize passing through the stages of grief—denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance. I found that to be true. Sometimes when I read questions like this it’s so clear where the questions is in this process. OP, you are bargaining to beat the band.
I wonder if that emotionlessness is protective because you understand at some level that you’re trying to stave off great sadness. I think whether you stay or leave, you need to get through sadness to get to acceptance. Will you choose the grief of committing your life to someone whose body makes it plain as day that he doesn’t want to be intimate with you, in all senses of that word? Or do you choose the grief of ending something maybe ok but that will never be the loving and nurturing relationship you hoped it would be?
posted by Sublimity at 8:42 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
When I was getting divorced, I needed to take a class for divorcing parents. The instructor said that when relationships fail it’s often possible to look back and recognize passing through the stages of grief—denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance. I found that to be true. Sometimes when I read questions like this it’s so clear where the questions is in this process. OP, you are bargaining to beat the band.
I wonder if that emotionlessness is protective because you understand at some level that you’re trying to stave off great sadness. I think whether you stay or leave, you need to get through sadness to get to acceptance. Will you choose the grief of committing your life to someone whose body makes it plain as day that he doesn’t want to be intimate with you, in all senses of that word? Or do you choose the grief of ending something maybe ok but that will never be the loving and nurturing relationship you hoped it would be?
posted by Sublimity at 8:42 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
Sounds like the PIV problem may be 'Death Grip Syndrome' - at least, that's what the lying about porn hints at.
posted by bq at 9:20 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 9:20 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
>I felt like I should try to make this one work is that this relationship is still the "best" that I've been treated in all my relationships
This may be the best that you've been treated, but that doesn't mean that you can't be treated better in the future by someone else if you broke up with him. Of course there's no guarantee that you would find someone better matched to you but I, an internet rando, think the chances are good. You're almost 40 now, can you imagine this for the rest of your life? Maybe things can change, but what are the chances of that? So you can either put in the work to make this relationship work with no guarantee, or break up and put in the work to find someone better matched to you, with no guarantee. Either way at the end of the day the most important relationship is with yourself (sorry to get all Dr. Phil on you).
Also, have you heard of "tolerable level of permanent unhappiness?" Google it. I feel like that's where you're at now.
posted by foxjacket at 12:06 PM on September 3
This may be the best that you've been treated, but that doesn't mean that you can't be treated better in the future by someone else if you broke up with him. Of course there's no guarantee that you would find someone better matched to you but I, an internet rando, think the chances are good. You're almost 40 now, can you imagine this for the rest of your life? Maybe things can change, but what are the chances of that? So you can either put in the work to make this relationship work with no guarantee, or break up and put in the work to find someone better matched to you, with no guarantee. Either way at the end of the day the most important relationship is with yourself (sorry to get all Dr. Phil on you).
Also, have you heard of "tolerable level of permanent unhappiness?" Google it. I feel like that's where you're at now.
posted by foxjacket at 12:06 PM on September 3
and nearing 40 as a woman makes it seem like being single again/dating will be very difficult/impossible).
compared to all you describe, being single sounds like a dream, actually. and impossible? nothing could be easier to achieve. being single is yours for the asking.
I do not understand or share the desire to assert control over the sexy books a partner reads, the pictures he looks at, or the videos he watches, when he is not with me, as that is none of my business. forcing me to know about them against my wishes, however, is an offensive and hostile act I would not accept. and although I see you do not feel the same way, perhaps he does. insofar as anybody who really wants to keep his private habits private can do so, and he did not, despite knowing he was under your eye. he did not respect you enough to simply decline your proposed restrictions and assert a normal right to privacy, as a man with dignity might do.
but never mind all that. judging a relationship by how he treats you, instead of by how happy you are and how much you love him, is a way to generalize and objectify yourself and I don’t see the point of it, you aren’t a customer to be flattered into leaving a good tip, he isn’t a dog trying to pass an obedience exam. nobody should abuse or mistreat you. a guy scraping by with a gentleman’s C in good behavior doesn’t say anything about whether being with him is any fun for you.
and so what if he really is the best you can do? that wouldn’t make him good enough.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:56 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
compared to all you describe, being single sounds like a dream, actually. and impossible? nothing could be easier to achieve. being single is yours for the asking.
I do not understand or share the desire to assert control over the sexy books a partner reads, the pictures he looks at, or the videos he watches, when he is not with me, as that is none of my business. forcing me to know about them against my wishes, however, is an offensive and hostile act I would not accept. and although I see you do not feel the same way, perhaps he does. insofar as anybody who really wants to keep his private habits private can do so, and he did not, despite knowing he was under your eye. he did not respect you enough to simply decline your proposed restrictions and assert a normal right to privacy, as a man with dignity might do.
but never mind all that. judging a relationship by how he treats you, instead of by how happy you are and how much you love him, is a way to generalize and objectify yourself and I don’t see the point of it, you aren’t a customer to be flattered into leaving a good tip, he isn’t a dog trying to pass an obedience exam. nobody should abuse or mistreat you. a guy scraping by with a gentleman’s C in good behavior doesn’t say anything about whether being with him is any fun for you.
and so what if he really is the best you can do? that wouldn’t make him good enough.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:56 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
With all the love and kindness in my entire being: everyone* deserves the kind of kisses that they like, at least part of the time! Find you someone who gets breathless when you kiss!
(*for variables of everyone who are interesting in kissing)
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:59 PM on September 3
(*for variables of everyone who are interesting in kissing)
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:59 PM on September 3
I disagree that he’s not attracted to you. More likely is he has a highly avoidant attachment style (his family culture is screaming this) and you will always be chasing him for crumbs of affirmation.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:40 PM on September 3
posted by stoneandstar at 3:40 PM on September 3
I'm sorry this is happening to you. Is it possible your partner is asexual? (I'm asexual by the way, something I only discovered after the breakup of my own marriage.) The 5+ years with no PIV sex in your relationship caught my attention, as did his avoidance of conversation about sexual topics plus his use of porn and masturbation. Many asexuals do enjoy solo sexual pleasure, but by nature they/we strongly prefer not to have sex with others, though romantic nonsexual attraction is quite common. But it's an orientation and identity, not a neurosis to be diagnosed and treated, so be aware he might be resistant to the idea that he's anything other than straight and 'normal' if you bring it up to him. Or it may not be that at all, just something to consider.
Overall though, the fact that you've had to put your sexual and sensual life in the deep freeze during this relationship is troubling and sad. You say you're in your 40s (or it just your partner?). Can you see being together with him for another 20, 30, 40 years with very little sexual intimacy in your life, or none at all? It's such a fundamental human need (when you HAVE that need) that it may become one of the great regrets of your life.
And I'm the one who's more like your partner here, and my ex and I were about your age when we split up. We were in an increasingly (then eventually totally) sexless marriage for over a decade before separating and divorcing a bit over 20 years ago. I've been contentedly single ever since, but I only realized and accepted my asexuality about 8 or 9 years ago. And not long after we parted, my ex met the man who's now her husband, and I'm quite pleased to say they'll soon be celebrating two decades together.
Wishing you all the best, you deserve it.
posted by hockey sock rock at 10:32 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Overall though, the fact that you've had to put your sexual and sensual life in the deep freeze during this relationship is troubling and sad. You say you're in your 40s (or it just your partner?). Can you see being together with him for another 20, 30, 40 years with very little sexual intimacy in your life, or none at all? It's such a fundamental human need (when you HAVE that need) that it may become one of the great regrets of your life.
And I'm the one who's more like your partner here, and my ex and I were about your age when we split up. We were in an increasingly (then eventually totally) sexless marriage for over a decade before separating and divorcing a bit over 20 years ago. I've been contentedly single ever since, but I only realized and accepted my asexuality about 8 or 9 years ago. And not long after we parted, my ex met the man who's now her husband, and I'm quite pleased to say they'll soon be celebrating two decades together.
Wishing you all the best, you deserve it.
posted by hockey sock rock at 10:32 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Try the pills. His ears might get a little warm, but he'll be okay. If they're big old 100mg pills, and you want to be cautious, you can cut em in halves or quarters to start.
posted by TheFalsePenguinOfTheSouth at 1:06 PM on September 4
posted by TheFalsePenguinOfTheSouth at 1:06 PM on September 4
Response by poster: Replies to some of the comments (though all are valuable and appreciated):
“Tolerable level of permanent unhappiness” - I hadn’t heard of this phrase before, but I looked this up and it does indeed seem apt in describing where I’m at right now.
"Avoidant attachment" - this is very likely, though not as bad as some of the others I've dated. I've been working hard on attachment styles for myself for awhile now, but maybe I still end up attracted to certain types.
"Death grip syndrome", "asexuality" - these have both come up in conversation with him but with no real conclusion. I think any explanation I’ve tried to consider with him has been vaguely denied and not able to really dig into it.
“Bargaining” and “stave off great sadness” from Sublimity and wormtales - I think these struck home a lot more than I was expecting. The bargaining stage also feels right after I read it. And after reading the whole comment, seemed to open some floodgates and have been having crying spells throughout the day ever since, but maybe they are needed. Part of the emotionlessness is probably just because I’m usually a more logical-type personality to begin with, and try to put extra effort in writing in a more factual way when asking questions online (to provide as unbiased an account as possible), but the rest is probably the bargaining and compartmentalizing sadness like you mentioned. I think I will need to face some hard truths in the coming days and the decisions that come with them.
posted by bellalia at 11:36 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
“Tolerable level of permanent unhappiness” - I hadn’t heard of this phrase before, but I looked this up and it does indeed seem apt in describing where I’m at right now.
"Avoidant attachment" - this is very likely, though not as bad as some of the others I've dated. I've been working hard on attachment styles for myself for awhile now, but maybe I still end up attracted to certain types.
"Death grip syndrome", "asexuality" - these have both come up in conversation with him but with no real conclusion. I think any explanation I’ve tried to consider with him has been vaguely denied and not able to really dig into it.
“Bargaining” and “stave off great sadness” from Sublimity and wormtales - I think these struck home a lot more than I was expecting. The bargaining stage also feels right after I read it. And after reading the whole comment, seemed to open some floodgates and have been having crying spells throughout the day ever since, but maybe they are needed. Part of the emotionlessness is probably just because I’m usually a more logical-type personality to begin with, and try to put extra effort in writing in a more factual way when asking questions online (to provide as unbiased an account as possible), but the rest is probably the bargaining and compartmentalizing sadness like you mentioned. I think I will need to face some hard truths in the coming days and the decisions that come with them.
posted by bellalia at 11:36 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
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I would view his current promises as a statement of intention but not a measure of his ability to actually follow through. A good couples therapist could get you there if you are both really motivated to working on the relationship. (And while you are in counseling, maybe you could have some honest conversations about what is going with your IRL sex life!)
But first you have to figure out if you want to stick around for that. If counseling did help with communication and trust, would you even still want him? No rule says you have to do counseling just because he asked. But if you really like this guy and would like to end up with him if only you can figure this out, then it might be worth the time and cost to see if maybe you can.
posted by metahawk at 4:48 PM on September 2 [1 favorite]