Share your existential commentary on suicide
July 31, 2024 7:56 PM Subscribe
A close friend self terminated. My user name might clue you into the fact that this "isn't my first rodeo." I live on the fringes. I don't need you to tell me it isn't my fault and there's nothing I can do. I'm asking you beautiful, intelligent members of MF to give me useful things to engage with to help process my loss. I'm not new here. But this one is hard. And yes I know Elizabeth Kubler Ross.
When shit like this happens I listen to the record Generic Flipper to help me cope.
My (very small local) community of lefty art weirdos has gotten hit hard since the beginning of covid times- 5 suicides I can count
I live on the fringes- avant garde art, music, anarchist, any kind of sexuality... We don't always all get along but we come together (at times like now) when something so bad happens...
A major member of our scene, after a year or so of slow disintegration, doused himself in gasoline and threw himself out of a moving car. Several hours later his parents made the obviously difficult decision of taking him off life support.
I am in no personal danger other than the obvious normal depression that comes with experiencing such an event. I have an extremely tedious job that allows me infinite time to read and listen to music. What you got? I miss my friend and it's really hard to comprehend how things got so bad he would do THAT.
I'm also interested in zen level distractions!
I did not post this anonymously because the facts of this situation have been openly shared publicly by the family members and also I think stigma around mental illness is rubbish.
When shit like this happens I listen to the record Generic Flipper to help me cope.
My (very small local) community of lefty art weirdos has gotten hit hard since the beginning of covid times- 5 suicides I can count
I live on the fringes- avant garde art, music, anarchist, any kind of sexuality... We don't always all get along but we come together (at times like now) when something so bad happens...
A major member of our scene, after a year or so of slow disintegration, doused himself in gasoline and threw himself out of a moving car. Several hours later his parents made the obviously difficult decision of taking him off life support.
I am in no personal danger other than the obvious normal depression that comes with experiencing such an event. I have an extremely tedious job that allows me infinite time to read and listen to music. What you got? I miss my friend and it's really hard to comprehend how things got so bad he would do THAT.
I'm also interested in zen level distractions!
I did not post this anonymously because the facts of this situation have been openly shared publicly by the family members and also I think stigma around mental illness is rubbish.
When my friend died from suicide a few years ago, I told another friend who said the usual "sorry for your loss" then immediately moved on to ask me what about my friend & her personality I would like to keep & continue in the world. It was very healing to have a conversation about that aspect of loss, combined with the fact that my supporting friend showed no curiosity about the how and why of the suicide. She didn't need the details because ultimately they were not relevant and it was a relief not to rehash them. Wonderful to have someone interested in my dead friend's power rather than her painful ending.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:25 PM on July 31 [26 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:25 PM on July 31 [26 favorites]
Best answer: The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense.
I suspect it is particularly difficult for artists for there to be no narrative — no comprehensible story to be told, because there was no comprehensible story. We want to build the death up in a way to give it structure, to learn a lesson from it or to inspire thoughts we can share with others, but the structure always tumbles because it’s built on thin air.
You mentioned Zen. Perhaps it will be useful to remember that this situation is no more and no less ridiculous than any other situation life has to offer. Or if you accept the duality of attachment and pain that you are currently living out the pain that is the cost of any worthwhile connection.
That could all be read as pretty bleak, but you did ask for existentialism.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:27 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]
I suspect it is particularly difficult for artists for there to be no narrative — no comprehensible story to be told, because there was no comprehensible story. We want to build the death up in a way to give it structure, to learn a lesson from it or to inspire thoughts we can share with others, but the structure always tumbles because it’s built on thin air.
You mentioned Zen. Perhaps it will be useful to remember that this situation is no more and no less ridiculous than any other situation life has to offer. Or if you accept the duality of attachment and pain that you are currently living out the pain that is the cost of any worthwhile connection.
That could all be read as pretty bleak, but you did ask for existentialism.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:27 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: I just bought a used $4 copy of Year of Magical Thinking, and Emmy Rae, thanks- part of what is so hard to process is the violent fashion he left... It's hard to separate that from the general comprehension of loss and self termination
posted by SystematicAbuse at 8:30 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]
posted by SystematicAbuse at 8:30 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I sit here and feel like it's selfish, "I can no longer spend time with them"
But they are freed of their pain, isn't that what they wanted?
My personal loss vs their freedom from a torture I couldn't comprehend?
posted by SystematicAbuse at 8:35 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]
But they are freed of their pain, isn't that what they wanted?
My personal loss vs their freedom from a torture I couldn't comprehend?
posted by SystematicAbuse at 8:35 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]
I sit here and feel like it's selfish, "I can no longer spend time with them"
But they are freed of their pain, isn't that what they wanted?
My personal loss vs their freedom from a torture I couldn't comprehend?
Are you suggesting that there’s a contradiction in there? Or if there is one, that it matters?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 PM on July 31
But they are freed of their pain, isn't that what they wanted?
My personal loss vs their freedom from a torture I couldn't comprehend?
Are you suggesting that there’s a contradiction in there? Or if there is one, that it matters?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:46 PM on July 31
Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide by Kay Redfield Jamison
Excerpt here.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:27 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]
Excerpt here.
posted by Violet Hour at 9:27 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]
That’s a lot of loss. I’m so sorry.
Our society is going through massive upheavals, it’s a strange time obviously. Anyone sensitive, anyone with a history of trauma is especially vulnerable right now.
You may have heard about “copycat suicides”, or “suicidal contagion” or “suicide clusters”. For at least 30 years, it’s been described by sociologists - and understood by journalists, that is the reason it’s not usually publicized. A new study on this just came out:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adq4074 . If you search for those phrases in eg Google Scholar, you will find additional academic perspectives on how and why this happens in groups.
You’re allowed to miss your friend, and to think what happened is tragic, because it was.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:56 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]
Our society is going through massive upheavals, it’s a strange time obviously. Anyone sensitive, anyone with a history of trauma is especially vulnerable right now.
You may have heard about “copycat suicides”, or “suicidal contagion” or “suicide clusters”. For at least 30 years, it’s been described by sociologists - and understood by journalists, that is the reason it’s not usually publicized. A new study on this just came out:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adq4074 . If you search for those phrases in eg Google Scholar, you will find additional academic perspectives on how and why this happens in groups.
You’re allowed to miss your friend, and to think what happened is tragic, because it was.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:56 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]
When I lost my hb to what some queried was suicide, although it was deemed an accident, I used to wander around places (usually hikes that I'd wanted us to go on together, but you do your thing) - and I'd allow myself to feel as if he were with me. I'd say, "See with my eyes, look how wonderful this is! Isn't it beautiful?" and "Use my ears and hear the birds! And the frogs are singing to us, listen!" ~ I'd imagine I was allowing his spirit to channel through me and experience the joys of what I'd always wanted to share with him when he was alive, but we never had the chance to do. You could do this with all senses. "Taste this food!", "Feel the coldness of that water on your skin - how refreshing!"
I realized that with the death of a loved one, the physical relationship is no longer possible, but you can allow yourself to continue the relationship internally. I had dialogue with him, and truly feel as though he were with me, experiencing all that I was experiencing. I opened myself up to allow him to use my senses, and at times felt as though some of my thoughts were coming from him (not of my own origin), and that we were in conversation.
This might have seemed strange to many in our Western culture, but I found it comforting and made me feel less alone. After a while though, I also knew that I needed to reinvest in my life in the physical world ~ but I could always take the time to share those special quiet moments with him in that way. I think too, he may have come to me in my sleep after that. It's now been 20 years, and if he's still doing that, it's not as consistently... but it could just be how that internal relationship has evolved for me. Some who may be religious might just have seen it as me being in meditative prayer, finding a closeness to spirit or whatever... and maybe that has some merit - except that I might have been a heretic for choosing my late partner to be my spiritual companion... so I didn't share my practices with many people. It was just for us to share.
posted by itsflyable at 11:26 PM on July 31 [16 favorites]
I realized that with the death of a loved one, the physical relationship is no longer possible, but you can allow yourself to continue the relationship internally. I had dialogue with him, and truly feel as though he were with me, experiencing all that I was experiencing. I opened myself up to allow him to use my senses, and at times felt as though some of my thoughts were coming from him (not of my own origin), and that we were in conversation.
This might have seemed strange to many in our Western culture, but I found it comforting and made me feel less alone. After a while though, I also knew that I needed to reinvest in my life in the physical world ~ but I could always take the time to share those special quiet moments with him in that way. I think too, he may have come to me in my sleep after that. It's now been 20 years, and if he's still doing that, it's not as consistently... but it could just be how that internal relationship has evolved for me. Some who may be religious might just have seen it as me being in meditative prayer, finding a closeness to spirit or whatever... and maybe that has some merit - except that I might have been a heretic for choosing my late partner to be my spiritual companion... so I didn't share my practices with many people. It was just for us to share.
posted by itsflyable at 11:26 PM on July 31 [16 favorites]
Best answer: I have an extremely tedious job that allows me infinite time to read and listen to music. What you got?
I got this, which I recommend listening to in a very dark room, turned up very, very, very loud. No, louder than that. Loud enough to put it in full control of your breathing.
The performance has more dynamic range than the reproduction chain can cope with so you'll need to forgive bad audio quality in the quiet sections.
I miss Max.
posted by flabdablet at 11:41 PM on July 31
I got this, which I recommend listening to in a very dark room, turned up very, very, very loud. No, louder than that. Loud enough to put it in full control of your breathing.
The performance has more dynamic range than the reproduction chain can cope with so you'll need to forgive bad audio quality in the quiet sections.
I miss Max.
posted by flabdablet at 11:41 PM on July 31
It's our neffy's birthday today. He was kind, troubled, violent. We thought "If we can only get him to 25 then he'll shuck off this tiresome roiling adolescent brain and settle down". Well, those who loved his generous heart got him to 25 two years ago and he hanged himself 3 weeks later. Earlier this year I was listening to Elizabeth "Failosophy" Day talking to Mo "Google X" Gawdat, whose 21 y.o. son died under the knife during a routine bit of surgery. Asked if he was devastated by the loss, Gawdat answered [paraphrase!] "Sure, of course we're gutted, but I spend more time reflecting on the wonderful two decades during which Ali was the light of our lives". I'm trying to do the same today. Sorry for your loss, it's more immediate.
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:31 AM on August 1 [8 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:31 AM on August 1 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry for your loss. My experience with this, as with other griefs and traumas, has been "one day at a time." In one instance I adopted a homemade semi-bullet journaling practice associated with basic tasks X, Y, and Z that I wanted to ensure got done every day, such that my body/physical support system was not hampering my ability to process. While checking off a list of things like "drink one glass of water in the morning," "read five pages of your favorite book," "go for a walk," etc. was not helpful in handling trauma, it did ensure that I wasn't suffering the effects of mild dehydration or similar physical ailments that I might not notice, or which might collectively have been challenging.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:59 AM on August 1
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:59 AM on August 1
Distraction/visual space-out time: over two hours of very hypnotic silicone?? color mixing. It’s the same music on repeat so I suggest muting and putting your own sounds on depending on your needs.
Despite being passively suicidal for large chunks of my entire life, it’s always still a little shocking when someone else actually goes through with it. A big thing for me is definitely talking about the nitty gritty of it and eschewing any kind of stigma therein, so please do make sure you and the others in your community have opportunities to get together in small pairings and groups for the next few months.
It is also helpful to me to take stock of the resources and assets I can offer to people who might engage with me about the topic and seem in need. It hasn’t come up much that I’ve actually had the chance or reason to offer, but it’s soothing for me to remind myself of my usefulness to others who are feeling like me (hello, looking at myself writing this comment, hrmmmm) and it can be a way to care for myself too because I am reminded that I have access the resources too and should use them. Stuff like, a quiet couch to chill on, or a cat to pet, or company at a doctors office, or someone to acknowledge the complexity of their feelings, or to take them seriously, or just like, a bowl of soup. You probably have a lot to offer to others that you could also offer to yourself, if you think about it. Very centering.
I’m a mostly visual artist when I get right down to it so for me I’ve made a habit of going to museums and galleries when people in my life die. Because my emotions are heightened my responses to the art are peaked as well. Have I been the middle aged white lady crying in front of an obscure Kandinsky? Yes. Did it help me continue being alive after a family member chose to stop treating their heart cancer? Also yes. So I don’t know what your medium is. If it’s sound, definitely engage with live music as much as you can. If it’s writing I’m sure you’ll get some good recs in here. I’ve seen incredible dance performances about different kinds of grief, particularly some about slavery and colonization and loss of ancestors that really ripped feelings out of me unexpectedly. Think about the things you tend to most naturally appreciate the artistry of, be it images or cooking or talking or building or zines or whatever, and deliberately saturate yourself in them. The specifics of the art don’t matter so much, because it’s more like encouraging a conduit for your own emotional processing than having a response to the art itself.
posted by Mizu at 5:57 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]
Despite being passively suicidal for large chunks of my entire life, it’s always still a little shocking when someone else actually goes through with it. A big thing for me is definitely talking about the nitty gritty of it and eschewing any kind of stigma therein, so please do make sure you and the others in your community have opportunities to get together in small pairings and groups for the next few months.
It is also helpful to me to take stock of the resources and assets I can offer to people who might engage with me about the topic and seem in need. It hasn’t come up much that I’ve actually had the chance or reason to offer, but it’s soothing for me to remind myself of my usefulness to others who are feeling like me (hello, looking at myself writing this comment, hrmmmm) and it can be a way to care for myself too because I am reminded that I have access the resources too and should use them. Stuff like, a quiet couch to chill on, or a cat to pet, or company at a doctors office, or someone to acknowledge the complexity of their feelings, or to take them seriously, or just like, a bowl of soup. You probably have a lot to offer to others that you could also offer to yourself, if you think about it. Very centering.
I’m a mostly visual artist when I get right down to it so for me I’ve made a habit of going to museums and galleries when people in my life die. Because my emotions are heightened my responses to the art are peaked as well. Have I been the middle aged white lady crying in front of an obscure Kandinsky? Yes. Did it help me continue being alive after a family member chose to stop treating their heart cancer? Also yes. So I don’t know what your medium is. If it’s sound, definitely engage with live music as much as you can. If it’s writing I’m sure you’ll get some good recs in here. I’ve seen incredible dance performances about different kinds of grief, particularly some about slavery and colonization and loss of ancestors that really ripped feelings out of me unexpectedly. Think about the things you tend to most naturally appreciate the artistry of, be it images or cooking or talking or building or zines or whatever, and deliberately saturate yourself in them. The specifics of the art don’t matter so much, because it’s more like encouraging a conduit for your own emotional processing than having a response to the art itself.
posted by Mizu at 5:57 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]
I am so very sorry. This may sound cliché, and it probably is cliché but it what I have found to be profoundly true. Your pain over your loss will never go away but the pain you feel will eventually become more muted with time. For me, this has not lead me to being able to focus completely on what were rewarding aspects of the relationship - thoughts tend to drift towards what could've been - but it has lead me to remember in very fond detail kind things that were directed towards me by my lost ones.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:08 AM on August 1
posted by bluesky43 at 8:08 AM on August 1
Kubler-Ross is primarily debunked for grief, if that's what you're referring to. The original research was on the stages of dying, as in personally receiving a terminal diagnosis (and then expanded to the people also affected by that diagnosis, but before death).
I have a big list of grief and trauma resources in a link in my profile. There's some fantastic stuff there depending on what angle you want to take on processing your feelings.
Existentially? I see no conflict between acknowledging someone had to go - whether they chose it or not - and wishing it didn't have to be that way. I assume if we're making wishes - I wish this person was still in the world and with me - we're not suddenly being ultra-realistic and saying "but still suffering exactly as much as they were in their worst moment." It's also really meaningless to be "selfish" when you want something that cannot be done anyway.
I also point out, in volunteer grief counseling that I do, that our personal grief journeys are not really about the deceased. They're only the starting point, and what happens to us from there is not just about that one loss - it's about who WE are, our traumas, our conceptualization of how the world works, our mortality, and the reminder that the losses aren't going to stop and how we're going to deal with that.
I get some comfort in blaming the system. I have lost friends in situations where I don't think I can blame them, because help and safety was just forever out of reach, or at least required more effort than a sick person has available to expend.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:34 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]
I have a big list of grief and trauma resources in a link in my profile. There's some fantastic stuff there depending on what angle you want to take on processing your feelings.
Existentially? I see no conflict between acknowledging someone had to go - whether they chose it or not - and wishing it didn't have to be that way. I assume if we're making wishes - I wish this person was still in the world and with me - we're not suddenly being ultra-realistic and saying "but still suffering exactly as much as they were in their worst moment." It's also really meaningless to be "selfish" when you want something that cannot be done anyway.
I also point out, in volunteer grief counseling that I do, that our personal grief journeys are not really about the deceased. They're only the starting point, and what happens to us from there is not just about that one loss - it's about who WE are, our traumas, our conceptualization of how the world works, our mortality, and the reminder that the losses aren't going to stop and how we're going to deal with that.
I get some comfort in blaming the system. I have lost friends in situations where I don't think I can blame them, because help and safety was just forever out of reach, or at least required more effort than a sick person has available to expend.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:34 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your loss and your friend's pain. This is likely too detailed for the way you're feeling, but this article helped me and at least one other person decide to keep living. The article is no longer searchable, it's old and was 1st published in Co-Evolution Quarterly, buyt you can download a .pdf. How Not to Commit Suicide, Art Kleiner
posted by theora55 at 9:34 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 9:34 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Hard to beat Generic Flipper: Life! Life! Life is the only thing worth living for! (I know it's got its ups and downs.)
posted by whuppy at 10:43 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]
posted by whuppy at 10:43 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about your question all day, wondering if I should reply. Like you, I've lost lots of people well 'before their time', a handful to suicide.
This is an odd suggestion, so disregard (and forgive) if this feels too far afield. I was listening to Terry Pratchett's "Night Watch" when the last hard death hit my world, and the last chapter brought words and thoughts and emotions that unlocked a lot of what was going on inside me, and an unexpected.... peace, or at least a way to hold it all, in a way I would not have predicted. Like I said, maybe not what you need right now, but Pratchett's ability to build up the humor and then slide the knife in sideways was the only way it could have gotten in.
If this does speak to you, please look for the Stephen Briggs version, not the new ones. If you have trouble finding it, DM me.
posted by Silvery Fish at 11:38 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]
This is an odd suggestion, so disregard (and forgive) if this feels too far afield. I was listening to Terry Pratchett's "Night Watch" when the last hard death hit my world, and the last chapter brought words and thoughts and emotions that unlocked a lot of what was going on inside me, and an unexpected.... peace, or at least a way to hold it all, in a way I would not have predicted. Like I said, maybe not what you need right now, but Pratchett's ability to build up the humor and then slide the knife in sideways was the only way it could have gotten in.
If this does speak to you, please look for the Stephen Briggs version, not the new ones. If you have trouble finding it, DM me.
posted by Silvery Fish at 11:38 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]
When Kobe Bryant died in that helicopter crash I remember having the very distinct impression that the universe was returning to itself. Like the distinct universe component called Kobe was being released back to the larger universal whole. It’s kind of a Hindu idea, but we are all the same ocean, and people’s lives are a bucket of water pulled from the ocean and then go back to the ocean. Like that. I am sorry for your loss.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:27 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:27 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]
Hi there. I always hesitate to post, wondering if I have anything additional to offer, but I didn't see anyone offer a perspective I found myself taking.
My beloved brother killed himself completely unexpectedly 16 years ago at the age of 35. I am still devastated by this and miss him every day, and often think I see him off in the distance, at least once a month.
I have always thought of his death, from the very moment of finding out, as a terrible accident, just as accidental and preventable and dumb bad luck as any car accident. There was just a stew of brain chemicals and physical problems that mixed with the wrong moment and the means (never forget that the person in the most danger from a gun is the owner).
I don't know, maybe this isn't comforting at all. I don't think of it as destiny, just an accident and an accident can happen to anybody.
The only media I have to offer is very dumb and silly, but who's to say that's not the right thing sometimes? I first stumbled across the very silly but mostly unknown Bill Murray movie "The Man Who Knew Too Little" in the midst of my first great grief, the loss of my first child when she was 4 months old. It seemed like the funniest thing I had ever seen and it offered me a little relief in a terrible time.
So when my brother died I thought of it, and it was still extremely silly and offered me relief in a terrible time. I've never seen it under any other circumstances, but in those it was exactly right.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 12:52 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]
My beloved brother killed himself completely unexpectedly 16 years ago at the age of 35. I am still devastated by this and miss him every day, and often think I see him off in the distance, at least once a month.
I have always thought of his death, from the very moment of finding out, as a terrible accident, just as accidental and preventable and dumb bad luck as any car accident. There was just a stew of brain chemicals and physical problems that mixed with the wrong moment and the means (never forget that the person in the most danger from a gun is the owner).
I don't know, maybe this isn't comforting at all. I don't think of it as destiny, just an accident and an accident can happen to anybody.
The only media I have to offer is very dumb and silly, but who's to say that's not the right thing sometimes? I first stumbled across the very silly but mostly unknown Bill Murray movie "The Man Who Knew Too Little" in the midst of my first great grief, the loss of my first child when she was 4 months old. It seemed like the funniest thing I had ever seen and it offered me a little relief in a terrible time.
So when my brother died I thought of it, and it was still extremely silly and offered me relief in a terrible time. I've never seen it under any other circumstances, but in those it was exactly right.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 12:52 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I want to touch on the feeling of selfishness, and your friend wanting to be free of their pain. For context, I work in an inpatient unit; some days 80% of my human interaction is with acutely suicidal individuals.
Based on "I don't need you to tell me there's nothing you could have done," it sounds like maybe you're familiar with the refrain "if someone wants to kill themself, they'll figure out a way to do it." This is well-intended, and is true for some cases, but research and clinical practice show that the majority of suicide attempts are impulsive and can be thwarted by not having access to the specific means the person planned. So, for example, if someone wanted to attempt suicide with a gun, and they didn't have access to a gun, then they may give up even though they have pills, rope, knives, etc. easily available to them. This is not universally true, but surprisingly common. I do a lot of safety planning, and while we consider all possible dangers, the access someone has to a specific suicide method is vastly more important than their general suicidality. For example, someone whose suicide plan is to run into traffic is in much more danger than someone whose suicide plan is to shoot themself but who doesn't have a gun--even though both of them have access to "running into traffic" as a way to attempt suicide. Anyone we release from the hospital could step into traffic on their way out, but people don't typically cycle through suicide methods until they find one that works (though this can happen), they fixate on a specific one or small handful of them.
I'm highlighting this because the one thing we know about suicidal crises is that they are often the result of an extreme kind of tunnel vision. Your brain gets in its head that suicide--and often suicide by a particular method--is The Solution, and is unable to comprehend any others. Often people believe that a suicidal crisis is an indication that someone had no other options left, and that this was the inevitable endpoint of their depressive spiral. But someone can snap from "struggling, but okay" to "suicidal" with no actual change in circumstances. This does not mean they have not been suffering for a long time, or that they haven't had suicidal ideation in the past, but that it isn't a given that suicide is what they wanted or the only accessible option to free them from their pain.
Most people who decide to attempt suicide have not done so under a long deliberation where they come to the decision that this is truly what they want. In a study that interviewed survivors of nearly-lethal suicide attempts, when asked how much time had passed between deciding to complete suicide and attempting, 24% said less than 5 minutes. 24% said 5-19. 23% said 20 minutes to an hour. Etc. Another study looked at ER visits and asked people, how long before your suicide attempt had it been since you first started thinking about attempting suicide? 48% said less than ten minutes. Since they first started thinking about it. Another found that among individuals who attempted to poison themselves, half had thought about the decision for less than 30 minutes, often immediately after an interpersonal argument. The idea that someone who attempts suicide has always been thinking about it for a long time and has come to the conclusion this is the only way out is not true. Many suicide attempts are snap decisions that are only indicative of someone's state of mind in those few minutes to hours, and don't tell you much about their prior states or what they would have wanted two hours later had they not had the opportunity to attempt. It only means their brain fixated on that particular suicide method for an unknown amount of time. Sometimes, the fixation is due to the onset of psychosis, and unrelated to the severity of someone's depression.
This is not to downplay the suffering that leads to this point, or to scare you about how suddenly suicidal urges can come on. But to talk about the existentialist part of this question, because I think it's laden with a lot of assumptions about what they were experiencing--"a torture I couldn't comprehend." Particularly because you saw your friend go downhill over the course of a year, it probably feels like they must have been suffering immensely for a long time. And it's entirely possible they were. It's also entirely possible that, despite their struggles, they were only suffering acutely enough to want to die for an hour or less. It's entirely possible that had they not had access to a car and gasoline, an hour later they may have felt very differently.
I can tell you in my own experience, I am someone who would not describe myself as under immense suffering. I have brief periods of intense difficulty at times, but overall I have a positive outlook on life and feel like my quality of life is generally pretty good. I don't typically struggle with a lot of hopelessness or negative thinking etc. But in times of high stress I have found my brain going to "what if you killed yourself?" as a solution, even in situations where the stressor is literally going to disappear in 2 days and I know that. And it is possible that if I had access to lethal means in that moment, I might not be able to snap out of the tunnel vision fast enough. But I don't own guns and I can't drive, so that takes out the "pretty much guaranteed to be lethal" options and leaves fuzzier ones, which is just enough uncertainty for my brain to go "hang on, maybe you're wrong about the 'this will definitely solve all my problems'" thing. My preoccupation with any kind of suicide means usually passes in less than an hour. The days before and after these moments are often ones where I have experienced joy and pleasure, not intense suffering.
Suicidal crisis is a moment in time. For some people, unfortunately, it's the last moment. But that doesn't mean that everything that came before it was endless torture. Of course, even if it was, your grief over the loss would still be entirely justified. But I think it's easy to see a suicide attempt--particularly a highly violent or lethal one--as evidence that someone was suffering immensely for a long time, or else why would they possibly consider this? Unfortunately the answer is that sometimes brains just do that and it has little bearing on what a person would want if they looked at their exact same experiences outside of the moment of suicidal crisis.
This brings us back to "there's nothing you could have done." This is, in fact, true--but not because it was inevitable. It's because the moments where acute suicidality comes on are often unpredictable, and you can't control access to means without severely restricting someone's freedoms. And people can't live like that. There's a reason inpatient stays are short and for stabilization only; having the kind of 24/7 surveillance and restrictions necessary to prevent someone from having access to any kind of suicide means is not tenable for more than those brief crisis moments--which are again often unpredictable.
I suspect also from your description you believe in bodily autonomy and some of this is coming into your feelings--your friend should be able to make the choice to free themself from their pain. Many leftists are against the entire idea of an inpatient ward because it restricts that freedom. As a leftist and mentally ill person myself I understand this position. However, the hospital I work at only accepts voluntary admissions. The idea is that you should have the freedom to consent to someone temporarily making your decisions for you (there are good arguments for why this should not be the medical industrial complex, but most areas don't currently have the infrastructure for it community-based) when you don't trust yourself at the moment to make decisions that are in line with what you actually want. Similar to how you might hand over your car keys to a friend when drunk. You may or may not accept this model as ethical, but I think the fact that we are able to operate entirely with voluntary admissions suggests how common it is to find oneself in that brief, dangerous moment where suicide feels like the only option but you know this is not actually what you want. I think we have a duty of care to listen to people when they tell us they're in that state, and that they don't want to die but are afraid they won't be able to stop themselves.
I don't know if that's the situation your friend was in. But I know it's the situation many people are in and either struggle to voice it or don't have the support they need--either in the community or the medical system--to have access to a way to keep themself safe through the suicidal crisis. I don't think that we should take as a given "this is what they wanted and we just have to accept that." This, of course, can bring up a different kind of grief. But it may be one you are more familiar with grappling with. It's also one that is more actionable. I have seen radical changes in individuals who were able to access support through a suicidal crisis--even if their overall life situation was still extremely difficult.
I wonder if you would find it helpful to engage in any advocacy around suicide or access to mental healthcare and/or community support--you may have already. And this is not something I suggest jumping into immediately as you're processing your grief, but as something to look towards for the future. I think it can feel very hopeless seeing someone fall into depression, and feeling like you just can't do enough in the face of all the various stressors and systemic problems contributing to that. But focusing instead on "what can I do to help people in my community have access to care and safety when in suicidal crisis?" might feel like a smaller, more manageable step.
I don't know if any of this is what you needed to hear; I hope if not, it at least helps give you something to explore on your journey there. I'm sorry for all the loss you've experienced. You deserve to grieve that, regardless of what your friend was experiencing.
posted by brook horse at 5:51 PM on August 1 [20 favorites]
Based on "I don't need you to tell me there's nothing you could have done," it sounds like maybe you're familiar with the refrain "if someone wants to kill themself, they'll figure out a way to do it." This is well-intended, and is true for some cases, but research and clinical practice show that the majority of suicide attempts are impulsive and can be thwarted by not having access to the specific means the person planned. So, for example, if someone wanted to attempt suicide with a gun, and they didn't have access to a gun, then they may give up even though they have pills, rope, knives, etc. easily available to them. This is not universally true, but surprisingly common. I do a lot of safety planning, and while we consider all possible dangers, the access someone has to a specific suicide method is vastly more important than their general suicidality. For example, someone whose suicide plan is to run into traffic is in much more danger than someone whose suicide plan is to shoot themself but who doesn't have a gun--even though both of them have access to "running into traffic" as a way to attempt suicide. Anyone we release from the hospital could step into traffic on their way out, but people don't typically cycle through suicide methods until they find one that works (though this can happen), they fixate on a specific one or small handful of them.
I'm highlighting this because the one thing we know about suicidal crises is that they are often the result of an extreme kind of tunnel vision. Your brain gets in its head that suicide--and often suicide by a particular method--is The Solution, and is unable to comprehend any others. Often people believe that a suicidal crisis is an indication that someone had no other options left, and that this was the inevitable endpoint of their depressive spiral. But someone can snap from "struggling, but okay" to "suicidal" with no actual change in circumstances. This does not mean they have not been suffering for a long time, or that they haven't had suicidal ideation in the past, but that it isn't a given that suicide is what they wanted or the only accessible option to free them from their pain.
Most people who decide to attempt suicide have not done so under a long deliberation where they come to the decision that this is truly what they want. In a study that interviewed survivors of nearly-lethal suicide attempts, when asked how much time had passed between deciding to complete suicide and attempting, 24% said less than 5 minutes. 24% said 5-19. 23% said 20 minutes to an hour. Etc. Another study looked at ER visits and asked people, how long before your suicide attempt had it been since you first started thinking about attempting suicide? 48% said less than ten minutes. Since they first started thinking about it. Another found that among individuals who attempted to poison themselves, half had thought about the decision for less than 30 minutes, often immediately after an interpersonal argument. The idea that someone who attempts suicide has always been thinking about it for a long time and has come to the conclusion this is the only way out is not true. Many suicide attempts are snap decisions that are only indicative of someone's state of mind in those few minutes to hours, and don't tell you much about their prior states or what they would have wanted two hours later had they not had the opportunity to attempt. It only means their brain fixated on that particular suicide method for an unknown amount of time. Sometimes, the fixation is due to the onset of psychosis, and unrelated to the severity of someone's depression.
This is not to downplay the suffering that leads to this point, or to scare you about how suddenly suicidal urges can come on. But to talk about the existentialist part of this question, because I think it's laden with a lot of assumptions about what they were experiencing--"a torture I couldn't comprehend." Particularly because you saw your friend go downhill over the course of a year, it probably feels like they must have been suffering immensely for a long time. And it's entirely possible they were. It's also entirely possible that, despite their struggles, they were only suffering acutely enough to want to die for an hour or less. It's entirely possible that had they not had access to a car and gasoline, an hour later they may have felt very differently.
I can tell you in my own experience, I am someone who would not describe myself as under immense suffering. I have brief periods of intense difficulty at times, but overall I have a positive outlook on life and feel like my quality of life is generally pretty good. I don't typically struggle with a lot of hopelessness or negative thinking etc. But in times of high stress I have found my brain going to "what if you killed yourself?" as a solution, even in situations where the stressor is literally going to disappear in 2 days and I know that. And it is possible that if I had access to lethal means in that moment, I might not be able to snap out of the tunnel vision fast enough. But I don't own guns and I can't drive, so that takes out the "pretty much guaranteed to be lethal" options and leaves fuzzier ones, which is just enough uncertainty for my brain to go "hang on, maybe you're wrong about the 'this will definitely solve all my problems'" thing. My preoccupation with any kind of suicide means usually passes in less than an hour. The days before and after these moments are often ones where I have experienced joy and pleasure, not intense suffering.
Suicidal crisis is a moment in time. For some people, unfortunately, it's the last moment. But that doesn't mean that everything that came before it was endless torture. Of course, even if it was, your grief over the loss would still be entirely justified. But I think it's easy to see a suicide attempt--particularly a highly violent or lethal one--as evidence that someone was suffering immensely for a long time, or else why would they possibly consider this? Unfortunately the answer is that sometimes brains just do that and it has little bearing on what a person would want if they looked at their exact same experiences outside of the moment of suicidal crisis.
This brings us back to "there's nothing you could have done." This is, in fact, true--but not because it was inevitable. It's because the moments where acute suicidality comes on are often unpredictable, and you can't control access to means without severely restricting someone's freedoms. And people can't live like that. There's a reason inpatient stays are short and for stabilization only; having the kind of 24/7 surveillance and restrictions necessary to prevent someone from having access to any kind of suicide means is not tenable for more than those brief crisis moments--which are again often unpredictable.
I suspect also from your description you believe in bodily autonomy and some of this is coming into your feelings--your friend should be able to make the choice to free themself from their pain. Many leftists are against the entire idea of an inpatient ward because it restricts that freedom. As a leftist and mentally ill person myself I understand this position. However, the hospital I work at only accepts voluntary admissions. The idea is that you should have the freedom to consent to someone temporarily making your decisions for you (there are good arguments for why this should not be the medical industrial complex, but most areas don't currently have the infrastructure for it community-based) when you don't trust yourself at the moment to make decisions that are in line with what you actually want. Similar to how you might hand over your car keys to a friend when drunk. You may or may not accept this model as ethical, but I think the fact that we are able to operate entirely with voluntary admissions suggests how common it is to find oneself in that brief, dangerous moment where suicide feels like the only option but you know this is not actually what you want. I think we have a duty of care to listen to people when they tell us they're in that state, and that they don't want to die but are afraid they won't be able to stop themselves.
I don't know if that's the situation your friend was in. But I know it's the situation many people are in and either struggle to voice it or don't have the support they need--either in the community or the medical system--to have access to a way to keep themself safe through the suicidal crisis. I don't think that we should take as a given "this is what they wanted and we just have to accept that." This, of course, can bring up a different kind of grief. But it may be one you are more familiar with grappling with. It's also one that is more actionable. I have seen radical changes in individuals who were able to access support through a suicidal crisis--even if their overall life situation was still extremely difficult.
I wonder if you would find it helpful to engage in any advocacy around suicide or access to mental healthcare and/or community support--you may have already. And this is not something I suggest jumping into immediately as you're processing your grief, but as something to look towards for the future. I think it can feel very hopeless seeing someone fall into depression, and feeling like you just can't do enough in the face of all the various stressors and systemic problems contributing to that. But focusing instead on "what can I do to help people in my community have access to care and safety when in suicidal crisis?" might feel like a smaller, more manageable step.
I don't know if any of this is what you needed to hear; I hope if not, it at least helps give you something to explore on your journey there. I'm sorry for all the loss you've experienced. You deserve to grieve that, regardless of what your friend was experiencing.
posted by brook horse at 5:51 PM on August 1 [20 favorites]
Response by poster: Hey, thank you to everyone. I am still slowly going through all your suggestions. I guess I thought I was pretty tough or something but this situation has floored me hard. Headed to the memorial tomorrow evening. Will keep crawling through here as this will take a while to adjust to. Right now just want to give a shout out to flabdablet for the Dave Max Meredith. That was correct. I feel seen, cheers comrade. Hug your loved ones. What a f***d up week.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 10:27 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]
posted by SystematicAbuse at 10:27 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: When Kobe Bryant died in that helicopter crash I remember having the very distinct impression that the universe was returning to itself. Like the distinct universe component called Kobe was being released back to the larger universal whole. It’s kind of a Hindu idea, but we are all the same ocean, and people’s lives are a bucket of water pulled from the ocean and then go back to the ocean. Like that. I am sorry for your loss.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:27 PM on August 1 [mark as best answer] [2 favorites +] [⚑]
I feel being part of the universal oneness. So did my man. We are all joined together on a molecular level? Maybe. I appreciate everyone's ideas, this dialogue with strangers who've also had to deal with these kinda of traumas is helping me crawl towards acceptance. The violence of his choice of disposal is really the haunting thing.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 10:38 PM on August 1
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:27 PM on August 1 [mark as best answer] [2 favorites +] [⚑]
I feel being part of the universal oneness. So did my man. We are all joined together on a molecular level? Maybe. I appreciate everyone's ideas, this dialogue with strangers who've also had to deal with these kinda of traumas is helping me crawl towards acceptance. The violence of his choice of disposal is really the haunting thing.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 10:38 PM on August 1
i can't know why your friend chose the method he did, but it seems a strong possibility that he wanted it to haunt. maybe he felt unappreciated, in that moment, and wanted to make sure he was remembered. remembering parts of his life from before that would be a way to honor that possible last wish, and might even (eventually) be effective in redirecting your thoughts.
i too see suicide as a release from unbearable pain. i second tell me no lies in thinking part of you must be ... i don't know, 'relieved' doesn't seem like the right word ... that your friend's pain is presumably over, and that there's no faulting another part for missing him, or even wishing it had never happened, since that won't bring him back and reinstate that pain. that duality seems like a big part of the nature of life to me.
posted by troywestfield at 9:45 AM on August 2
i too see suicide as a release from unbearable pain. i second tell me no lies in thinking part of you must be ... i don't know, 'relieved' doesn't seem like the right word ... that your friend's pain is presumably over, and that there's no faulting another part for missing him, or even wishing it had never happened, since that won't bring him back and reinstate that pain. that duality seems like a big part of the nature of life to me.
posted by troywestfield at 9:45 AM on August 2
Response by poster: I just returned from the memorial and started catching up on the comments here. Brook Horse, thank you. What you wrote touched me. What you described actually helps me immensely. Based on my own personal experiences with mental illness, and knowing my friend well, I suspected that impulsiveness was a key factor. I am glad (? Relieved? Idk, maybe the Germans have a word for the feeling I'm trying to express) to learn that there are actual studies that support this. Despite watching my friend's sanity slowly deteriorate, his last decision is really difficult to square with the person I knew. It's helpful to learn that medical science backs up the idea that events like these are often the result of one impulsive, poorly considered, terrible moment. A very bad decision at the worst possible time.
And again, thanks to everyone for sharing. All your comments are the best post. I just needed to have this discussion in a way that is emotionally removed from my community. It's probably understandable that all of us are struggling to be objective about this situation while we're still processing grief.
And this is the type of thing that made me start financially supporting Metafilter in the small way I am able to.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 6:36 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]
And again, thanks to everyone for sharing. All your comments are the best post. I just needed to have this discussion in a way that is emotionally removed from my community. It's probably understandable that all of us are struggling to be objective about this situation while we're still processing grief.
And this is the type of thing that made me start financially supporting Metafilter in the small way I am able to.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 6:36 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]
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posted by brookeb at 8:14 PM on July 31