Neurodivergence and/or having disorders
June 11, 2024 5:54 PM Subscribe
When I view myself as being neurodivergent, I feel happy about who I am. On the other hand, thinking of myself as having certain personality or psychiatric disorders makes me feel unlovable. In fact though, it’s at least as likely that I have those disorders as that I’m neurodivergent.
I don't have any diagnoses. Just my own, uncertain suspicions. I'm middle-aged and unlikely to get diagnosed. (Maybe someday, if genetic tests or brain scans or other such tools evolve.) I've had extensive therapy in the past, and I'm not interested in pursuing more at this time, nor other treatments.
These days, the neurodiverse community has strong voices and messages, and I’ve absorbed that someone can be neurodivergent and awesome. Perhaps in the future, there will be a similar revolution for those with what are now widely-despised personality or psychiatric disorders, and I hope to one day love myself regardless of the label. However, at present, I don’t find anything positive about maybe having those disorders.
Would it be offensive, harmful, or wrong – particularly to those who are neurodivergent, but also in any other way – to consider and identify myself as neurodivergent and disregard the possibility of disorders? If it’s even possible…
Does anyone relate to this and have any advice to offer?
I’d appreciate gentleness.
I don't have any diagnoses. Just my own, uncertain suspicions. I'm middle-aged and unlikely to get diagnosed. (Maybe someday, if genetic tests or brain scans or other such tools evolve.) I've had extensive therapy in the past, and I'm not interested in pursuing more at this time, nor other treatments.
These days, the neurodiverse community has strong voices and messages, and I’ve absorbed that someone can be neurodivergent and awesome. Perhaps in the future, there will be a similar revolution for those with what are now widely-despised personality or psychiatric disorders, and I hope to one day love myself regardless of the label. However, at present, I don’t find anything positive about maybe having those disorders.
Would it be offensive, harmful, or wrong – particularly to those who are neurodivergent, but also in any other way – to consider and identify myself as neurodivergent and disregard the possibility of disorders? If it’s even possible…
Does anyone relate to this and have any advice to offer?
I’d appreciate gentleness.
“Neurodivergent” is not a well defined word and there is no one single neurodivergent community that could universally approve or disapprove of you using it.
If it feels like the right word to describe you, go for it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:34 PM on June 11 [2 favorites]
If it feels like the right word to describe you, go for it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:34 PM on June 11 [2 favorites]
Oh, and I agree with Lyn Never that you’ve internalized a lot of nastiness around this topic and, almost certainly accidentally, let it spill back out in your post.
If I cared I might decide whether I was neurodivergent or not, but what I definitely am is mentally ill and just fine and dandy with that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:43 PM on June 11 [5 favorites]
If I cared I might decide whether I was neurodivergent or not, but what I definitely am is mentally ill and just fine and dandy with that.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:43 PM on June 11 [5 favorites]
There are peer-led movements internationally that embrace various mental states that are considered "disordered" in the Western medical model, or that embrace mental-health challenges more broadly as being part of the varied tapestry that is life. Looking into places like the Hearing Voices Network, peer-led recovery and -advocacy movements and leaders like Pat Deegan and Project Lets, the Recovery Model, and resources like Mad in America might be helpful.
You might find community or other resources through the Institute for the Development of the Human Arts (IDHA), too.
posted by lapis at 7:05 PM on June 11 [3 favorites]
You might find community or other resources through the Institute for the Development of the Human Arts (IDHA), too.
posted by lapis at 7:05 PM on June 11 [3 favorites]
I work with people with personality disorders and “scary” psychiatric disorders every day, they are just as lovable and human as anyone else. They are stigmatized, and people react poorly to them because they make assumptions about their behavior that run from ill-informed to cruel, but they all respond to the same lovingkindness that everyone deserves.
I don’t know if that helps, but I wanted to say it. Because many of the people with these disorders have clearly not received this for a long time. But that doesn’t make them unlovable. In my work I try and provide them a place to experience that so that when someone comes along who will love them for all they are, they are a little more likely to be open to it. Because part of being loved is allowing it. I think maybe the label of “mental disorder” versus “neurodivergent” affects that. But I don’t think the answer is “everyone should just call themselves neurodivegent,” particularly because you may come to a time in your life where you are clearly experiencing, say, psychosis or mania or other experiences that bear the brunt of stigma. And both you and society will be better off if you enter that place from “I have been working to dismantle my internalized shame” than “I have been running from my shame by pushing it onto another category of people.”
But that’s hard to do. I get wanting to run from it. I won’t say you have to confront that right now. Just think about what it might look like if you did. I hope you can find space for yourself to try.
posted by brook horse at 7:15 PM on June 11 [20 favorites]
I don’t know if that helps, but I wanted to say it. Because many of the people with these disorders have clearly not received this for a long time. But that doesn’t make them unlovable. In my work I try and provide them a place to experience that so that when someone comes along who will love them for all they are, they are a little more likely to be open to it. Because part of being loved is allowing it. I think maybe the label of “mental disorder” versus “neurodivergent” affects that. But I don’t think the answer is “everyone should just call themselves neurodivegent,” particularly because you may come to a time in your life where you are clearly experiencing, say, psychosis or mania or other experiences that bear the brunt of stigma. And both you and society will be better off if you enter that place from “I have been working to dismantle my internalized shame” than “I have been running from my shame by pushing it onto another category of people.”
But that’s hard to do. I get wanting to run from it. I won’t say you have to confront that right now. Just think about what it might look like if you did. I hope you can find space for yourself to try.
posted by brook horse at 7:15 PM on June 11 [20 favorites]
I think if you're going to spend time in neurodivergent community, you're going to be spending time with a lot of people who have one mental health issue or another, and you're going to need to untangle and change how you think and talk about them to avoid doing harm to your peers.
There's no need for you to chase or acknowledge or pin down a diagnosis of your own if doing so would not provide you any benefit or help you to e.g. be a better partner or friend or family member to people you care about. But you are still going to have to do work to address your underlying feelings and thoughts about mental illness, even if you choose not to apply any of that back to yourself.
posted by Stacey at 7:16 PM on June 11 [3 favorites]
There's no need for you to chase or acknowledge or pin down a diagnosis of your own if doing so would not provide you any benefit or help you to e.g. be a better partner or friend or family member to people you care about. But you are still going to have to do work to address your underlying feelings and thoughts about mental illness, even if you choose not to apply any of that back to yourself.
posted by Stacey at 7:16 PM on June 11 [3 favorites]
I have had this exact same question. Why does realising that I'm autistic give me such relief, so why did realising that I suffer from anxiety (before I knew about my autism) make me feel broken?
I think it has to do with the healing power of self acceptance and self compassion. We know that autism can't be cured and is just a way of being, but we expect people to fix or suppress mood disorders and other psychiatric difficulties.
"I have generalised anxiety" means "dammit now I have to learn how to fix this" for many people.
Neurodivergent and neurotypical are sociological, not clinical terms. You can't be officially diagnosed as "neurodivergent", because there is no official standardised definition of neurodivergence.
Some people use the term to mean "Autism and ADHD". Some people use it to mean "Neurological difference present from birth" and include conditions like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Some people (including me) use it to mean all neurological differences, including dementia, traumatic brain injury, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, bipolar, borderline, narcissistic personality, etc.
For me, the core message of the Neurodivergent movement is "there's nothing shameful about being disabled".
Some ND people are not disabled by their traits. Some are. Some ND people's disability is created by society's intolerance, some ND people would be disabled by their ND traits regardless of social mores and attitudes.
But being disabled in itself is just a fact, not a judgement about worth.
So my answer is that your reaction to being ND vs having a mood disorder or other psychiatric condition is rational and understandable, given the society we live in. But that you can use the self compassion and acceptance you already show yourself in one aspect of your being, and apply that to other aspects of yourself.
(reading over this, I hope my intensity doesn't come over as scolding, I mean everything with kindness. I am working through these same questions too.)
posted by Zumbador at 7:26 PM on June 11 [23 favorites]
I think it has to do with the healing power of self acceptance and self compassion. We know that autism can't be cured and is just a way of being, but we expect people to fix or suppress mood disorders and other psychiatric difficulties.
"I have generalised anxiety" means "dammit now I have to learn how to fix this" for many people.
Neurodivergent and neurotypical are sociological, not clinical terms. You can't be officially diagnosed as "neurodivergent", because there is no official standardised definition of neurodivergence.
Some people use the term to mean "Autism and ADHD". Some people use it to mean "Neurological difference present from birth" and include conditions like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Some people (including me) use it to mean all neurological differences, including dementia, traumatic brain injury, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, bipolar, borderline, narcissistic personality, etc.
For me, the core message of the Neurodivergent movement is "there's nothing shameful about being disabled".
Some ND people are not disabled by their traits. Some are. Some ND people's disability is created by society's intolerance, some ND people would be disabled by their ND traits regardless of social mores and attitudes.
But being disabled in itself is just a fact, not a judgement about worth.
So my answer is that your reaction to being ND vs having a mood disorder or other psychiatric condition is rational and understandable, given the society we live in. But that you can use the self compassion and acceptance you already show yourself in one aspect of your being, and apply that to other aspects of yourself.
(reading over this, I hope my intensity doesn't come over as scolding, I mean everything with kindness. I am working through these same questions too.)
posted by Zumbador at 7:26 PM on June 11 [23 favorites]
Another aspect may be that society at least treats many psychiatric disorders as illnesses that are explicitly supposed to be fixed (and if the drugs and therapy don't bring you to 100% fictional baseline perky thoughtless suburbanite, it's probably because you're wallowing in it and don't want to be fixed). On the other hand the neurodivergent community message is explicitly "this is the way my brain was made" - including embracing some therapy techniques but aimed at living your best life with the brain you have, and discrediting "cure" things like ABA. No wonder the latter approach is mentally more comfortable, it doesn't require you to dig up so much internalised ablism. (And to be clear, that ablism is societally and culturally installed, not something you chose either.) Unpacking those attitudes may let you feel better with your actual brain, because guess what? Lots of conditions can be comorbid, especially when growing up neurodivergent in a society not geared for it gives us so much complex trauma.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 10:31 PM on June 11 [10 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 10:31 PM on June 11 [10 favorites]
I just want to underscore I claim sanctuary's excellent point about comorbid conditions.
Whether or not you agree with me that personality disorders, anxiety, depression etc fit under the ND umbrella, for various reasons it's far more likely that an ND person gets diagnosed with these (sometimes accurately, sometimes not) so it's not always helping to seperate autism and ADHD into a separate category. For example, very large number of ND people have CPTSD.
Sometimes it's is important to do so, as brookhorse says (if I understood brookhorse correctly) because certain conditions require specific medication, treatment, and understanding.
But in a more general sense, you are one person with one nervous system that has a lot of different things going on, it can be helpful to think of it all as being part of the same complex pattern, rather than "this bit is me, and this bit is disordered"
posted by Zumbador at 10:53 PM on June 11 [4 favorites]
Whether or not you agree with me that personality disorders, anxiety, depression etc fit under the ND umbrella, for various reasons it's far more likely that an ND person gets diagnosed with these (sometimes accurately, sometimes not) so it's not always helping to seperate autism and ADHD into a separate category. For example, very large number of ND people have CPTSD.
Sometimes it's is important to do so, as brookhorse says (if I understood brookhorse correctly) because certain conditions require specific medication, treatment, and understanding.
But in a more general sense, you are one person with one nervous system that has a lot of different things going on, it can be helpful to think of it all as being part of the same complex pattern, rather than "this bit is me, and this bit is disordered"
posted by Zumbador at 10:53 PM on June 11 [4 favorites]
I wonder if OP is referring to narcissism and sociopathy when OP mentions "widely despised personality disorders".
Other answers in this thread have referred to anxiety, hearing voices, depression, autism, and other conditions that I wouldn't consider to be widely despised. OP's description makes me think about the negative tone that is often used when people discuss narcissism and other cluster-B conditions (psychopathy, sociopathy).
When OP says that their symptoms might be explained by neurodivergence or might be explained by these widely despised conditions, it makes me think about how all these conditions have reduced empathy in common. Elon Musk is an example of someone who says his low-empathy behavior is due to neurodivergence, but his attention seeking seems correlated with narcissism. I can see how someone who knows that they have low empathy may be unsure whether it's due to neurodivergence or cluster B conditions.
I would say to OP that when people speak negatively about narcissism, it is due to the often hurtful impact. If narcissists work hard at avoiding hurting others, they will be appreciated.
posted by vienna at 12:22 AM on June 12 [6 favorites]
Other answers in this thread have referred to anxiety, hearing voices, depression, autism, and other conditions that I wouldn't consider to be widely despised. OP's description makes me think about the negative tone that is often used when people discuss narcissism and other cluster-B conditions (psychopathy, sociopathy).
When OP says that their symptoms might be explained by neurodivergence or might be explained by these widely despised conditions, it makes me think about how all these conditions have reduced empathy in common. Elon Musk is an example of someone who says his low-empathy behavior is due to neurodivergence, but his attention seeking seems correlated with narcissism. I can see how someone who knows that they have low empathy may be unsure whether it's due to neurodivergence or cluster B conditions.
I would say to OP that when people speak negatively about narcissism, it is due to the often hurtful impact. If narcissists work hard at avoiding hurting others, they will be appreciated.
posted by vienna at 12:22 AM on June 12 [6 favorites]
I'm the original poster. I made this account because I feel terrible that people are being hurt by thinking this post is about them when it's not. Without stating the particular disorders I suspect in myself, vienna is right about the broad types of disorders I'm talking about and the ones I'm not. If I had anxiety, depression, bipolar, ptsd, schizophrenia, autism, adhd... I don't consider those to be widely-despised (though yes, stigmatized!), and I wouldn't feel unlovable if that's what I had. If that's what you have, I'm very sorry if you thought I was saying you were unlovable.
If you do have the kinds of disorders I'm talking about -- the ones that are often reinforced here and everywhere else as being unlovable -- then I am sorry that my inability to love them in myself is an additional reinforcement of that rejection to you.
posted by Human trial at 3:16 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
If you do have the kinds of disorders I'm talking about -- the ones that are often reinforced here and everywhere else as being unlovable -- then I am sorry that my inability to love them in myself is an additional reinforcement of that rejection to you.
posted by Human trial at 3:16 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Devon Price and Patric Gagne have written about destigmatizing narcissism and sociopathy.
posted by wheatlets at 3:31 AM on June 12 [4 favorites]
posted by wheatlets at 3:31 AM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Just want to say that I didn't take your question to be judgemental and hurtful in that way, Human Trial. I suspected that you were talking about some of the more harshly judged personality disorders, which is why I mentioned some of them.
But there's such stigma around narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorders that I wanted to tread carefully.
Both of those are trauma conditions, and I think the stigma and judgement around them is troubling and harmful.
I'd like to ask anyone else commenting to be extra careful as this is a painful topic for many.
posted by Zumbador at 3:46 AM on June 12 [8 favorites]
But there's such stigma around narcissistic personality disorder and borderline personality disorders that I wanted to tread carefully.
Both of those are trauma conditions, and I think the stigma and judgement around them is troubling and harmful.
I'd like to ask anyone else commenting to be extra careful as this is a painful topic for many.
posted by Zumbador at 3:46 AM on June 12 [8 favorites]
gently, find anything positive
to all of the excellent thoughts in this thread and your courage in asking the question, adding: there can be something positive about checking in with a third party who might actually diagnose you. treatment options become available. medical professionals (provisionally) making diagnoses are performing a function, designed to help you towards getting better, help you process trauma, etc.. there's no need to label yourself, though it's great that you are thinking about ways of dismantling internalized shame, as brook horse wisely counsels
vienna's point is also strong: work hard at avoiding hurting others. your Human Trial post is a good step in this direction! as you continue on this journey towards awesomeness, please remember: love yourself and be happy about who you are
posted by HearHere at 4:02 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
to all of the excellent thoughts in this thread and your courage in asking the question, adding: there can be something positive about checking in with a third party who might actually diagnose you. treatment options become available. medical professionals (provisionally) making diagnoses are performing a function, designed to help you towards getting better, help you process trauma, etc.. there's no need to label yourself, though it's great that you are thinking about ways of dismantling internalized shame, as brook horse wisely counsels
vienna's point is also strong: work hard at avoiding hurting others. your Human Trial post is a good step in this direction! as you continue on this journey towards awesomeness, please remember: love yourself and be happy about who you are
posted by HearHere at 4:02 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Paradoxically, there are two things that might bring you some peace:
1) as others have mentioned, I am gleaning that the piece about ND that sounds appealing to you is self-acceptance. That is totally attainable - not easy per se (especially if you aren’t in therapy IMO) but definitely possible.
2) There is an upside to the implication that personality disorders are somewhat within your control. It is possible to have once had a cluster-B label, and to then be in “remission” for pretty much the rest of your life. Much like a major illness survivor, you’re probably going to want to go in for regular checkups - and be extra cautious around things that could increase your risk of reoccurrence. But the newest research I’ve read posits that cluster-b diagnoses describe more of a particular phase in someone’s life - under particular circumstances - that can have a start and end point, rather than being seen a as a lifelong state of disorder (I don’t have any links handy, sorry, but I encourage you to follow this down if it seems useful). While you can’t control other people’s shaming, you can put yourself in remission by changing some of the circumstances - like limiting triggers, setting boundaries, making lifestyle / relationship changes, etc
Bonus: please remember people with the power to diagnose/label are just people. They can incorrectly interpret statements like “I don’t know how I feel inside” as “sense of inner emptiness” (marker for BPD / psychopathy) rather than “poor interoception with a proclivity to intellectualize” (marker for ASD). They can have studied under an outdated school of thought. They can be having a bad day. They can be rushing through paperwork. They can…. Etc etc etc
So don’t forget to that ONE person’s label for ONE side of yourself that doesn’t portray the full whole of who you are isn’t the truth.
posted by seemoorglass at 6:35 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
1) as others have mentioned, I am gleaning that the piece about ND that sounds appealing to you is self-acceptance. That is totally attainable - not easy per se (especially if you aren’t in therapy IMO) but definitely possible.
2) There is an upside to the implication that personality disorders are somewhat within your control. It is possible to have once had a cluster-B label, and to then be in “remission” for pretty much the rest of your life. Much like a major illness survivor, you’re probably going to want to go in for regular checkups - and be extra cautious around things that could increase your risk of reoccurrence. But the newest research I’ve read posits that cluster-b diagnoses describe more of a particular phase in someone’s life - under particular circumstances - that can have a start and end point, rather than being seen a as a lifelong state of disorder (I don’t have any links handy, sorry, but I encourage you to follow this down if it seems useful). While you can’t control other people’s shaming, you can put yourself in remission by changing some of the circumstances - like limiting triggers, setting boundaries, making lifestyle / relationship changes, etc
Bonus: please remember people with the power to diagnose/label are just people. They can incorrectly interpret statements like “I don’t know how I feel inside” as “sense of inner emptiness” (marker for BPD / psychopathy) rather than “poor interoception with a proclivity to intellectualize” (marker for ASD). They can have studied under an outdated school of thought. They can be having a bad day. They can be rushing through paperwork. They can…. Etc etc etc
So don’t forget to that ONE person’s label for ONE side of yourself that doesn’t portray the full whole of who you are isn’t the truth.
posted by seemoorglass at 6:35 AM on June 12 [5 favorites]
Oh I just reread your post and you mention that you don’t have any diagnoses. So my point still stands but in this case the person labeling you might be you (or you might have gotten hints from others’ in your life?) but in any case - I am 99.99% sure that you are more than just a label / diagnosis / alphabet soup of letters.
posted by seemoorglass at 6:39 AM on June 12
posted by seemoorglass at 6:39 AM on June 12
Your post resonated with me for a couple of reasons, but I think the one that has a chance of being useful to you is: I see a real tension between the functions of a professional diagnosis for helping someone with a problem cope with that problem, on the one hand, and the right to claim your own identity in the world, on the other. The tension emerges when your identity is the thing that is construed as a problem.
The closest to a way out of this that I have found is to take identity out of it and focus on the here and now, the concrete details, as much as possible in my relations with others. What are the specific points of friction between you and other people? What are some supports you might need to ease the friction? If that friction can be eased, it might not matter what you call it. And that might open some space for setting aside the issue of who has the right to name us and tell us what we're worth.
My two cents -- I feel for you and hope that this eases for you soon.
posted by eirias at 6:47 AM on June 12 [3 favorites]
The closest to a way out of this that I have found is to take identity out of it and focus on the here and now, the concrete details, as much as possible in my relations with others. What are the specific points of friction between you and other people? What are some supports you might need to ease the friction? If that friction can be eased, it might not matter what you call it. And that might open some space for setting aside the issue of who has the right to name us and tell us what we're worth.
My two cents -- I feel for you and hope that this eases for you soon.
posted by eirias at 6:47 AM on June 12 [3 favorites]
The empathy that you express in your follow up feels very much at odds with how you describe yourself in the original post and cluster B personality disorders in general. I very much think you can embrace the neurodivergent label and I’d even say there’s a very good chance that it’s accurate based upon the admittedly limited information I have. I hope you can learn to love yourself.
posted by Amy93 at 7:21 AM on June 12 [2 favorites]
posted by Amy93 at 7:21 AM on June 12 [2 favorites]
Just to be clear, everything in my post applies to cluster B disorders as well. I’ve worked with a lot of people with BPD and a few with NPD diagnoses. There is often the idea that these people are fundamentally “different” from other human beings in a way that can’t be overcome (on either side) and that any interaction with these people will be fundamentally harmful. Which isn’t true. I’ve had a lot of amazing connections with people with these disorders. Can they be hurtful? Sure, as can anyone. They typically have fewer resources helping them not be hurtful, compared to your average person, but they aren’t inherently Harmful People.
You are deserving of love. “Don’t hurt people” is also not the be-all, end-all and in fact making this the focus of your personal work often worsens cycles because it reinforces the fundamental struggle with self-acceptance that often is fueling the symptoms. Working on yourself will help you not hurt others; focusing only on others is not the answer. And you deserve help outside of the impact to others.
posted by brook horse at 7:39 AM on June 12 [7 favorites]
You are deserving of love. “Don’t hurt people” is also not the be-all, end-all and in fact making this the focus of your personal work often worsens cycles because it reinforces the fundamental struggle with self-acceptance that often is fueling the symptoms. Working on yourself will help you not hurt others; focusing only on others is not the answer. And you deserve help outside of the impact to others.
posted by brook horse at 7:39 AM on June 12 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry that you felt the need to 'out' yourself in order to apologize for internalized negative self-judgement spilling into your question. You shouldn't need to apologize for the trauma inflicted on you, sheesh. Still, I understand your concerns as deeply moral and respect that you felt it was the right thing to do.
Would it be offensive, harmful, or wrong – particularly to those who are neurodivergent, but also in any other way – to consider and identify myself as neurodivergent and disregard the possibility of disorders? If it’s even possible…
Your self-regard belongs to you and you alone. You do not have to mediate it through anyone else's lens, even the lenses other neurodivergent people whom you feel the most similar to. I see your question as: Is it wrong to erect some boundaries around how I am willing to consider and identify myself? The answer is no.
posted by kitcat at 8:00 AM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Would it be offensive, harmful, or wrong – particularly to those who are neurodivergent, but also in any other way – to consider and identify myself as neurodivergent and disregard the possibility of disorders? If it’s even possible…
Your self-regard belongs to you and you alone. You do not have to mediate it through anyone else's lens, even the lenses other neurodivergent people whom you feel the most similar to. I see your question as: Is it wrong to erect some boundaries around how I am willing to consider and identify myself? The answer is no.
posted by kitcat at 8:00 AM on June 12 [4 favorites]
With your update, I would still recommend the Mad in America link (they have an article on their homepage right now titled "Borderline Personality Disorder Diagnosis Often Used to Discredit Patient Experiences," for example) as well as IDHA. A lot of the liberation-focused mental health stuff is not super limited by diagnosis or other labels; it's looking at ways society, capitalism, sexism, racism, settler-colonialism, heteronormativity, etc. cause trauma and then how the mental-health industrial complex tells individuals their trauma response is due to their individual "bad wiring" or whatever.
I think you deserve to stop feeling shame around all parts of yourself.
posted by lapis at 8:15 AM on June 12 [3 favorites]
I think you deserve to stop feeling shame around all parts of yourself.
posted by lapis at 8:15 AM on June 12 [3 favorites]
Another thought: I work with people with schizophrenia, and it's absolutely a condition that people consider "despicable" in the sense that they think it's impossible to recover from, makes people dangerous and untrustworthy, means you'll never have a meaningful and fulfilling life, etc. It's great that you can see that as stigma -- because it is, based on fear and myth rather than fact -- and so it might be helpful to see that you may be seeing your own "despicable" condition through that same stigmatizing lens, and that if you're able to identify that as a distorted lens for people with schizophrenia, maybe you can also see how the lens is distorted when you're looking at yourself, too.
posted by lapis at 12:46 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
posted by lapis at 12:46 PM on June 12 [4 favorites]
Huge, heartfelt thanks. I'm considering possibilities that I never have in all the years leading up to this post, endlessly analyzing how I am and why, by myself and with therapists. I'm nervously, tentatively hopeful. I think your replies might actually change my life.
posted by Human trial at 5:29 PM on June 12 [6 favorites]
posted by Human trial at 5:29 PM on June 12 [6 favorites]
Sending you much empathy.
I was briefly "diagnosed" with BPD at age 16 as part of a concerted, institutional effort to make ME the problem instead of my abusive family. Looking back on it now, it's absolutely incomprehensible. I'm the complete opposite in terms of ability to regulate my emotional state and emotional maturity. And yet, after a breakup a few years ago, an ex who knew my history actually tried to blame our breakup on my "BPD". I had to laugh.
People have also tried to "diagnose" me with autism. This is completely ludicrous. I'm just a smart, introverted, quirky only child.
Anyway, I say, fuck all that nonsense. Both mental AND physical "disorders" and "conditions" and "diagnoses" are mostly ways that the US healthcare system extracts profits from the vulnerable folks who are not performing maximum productivity to generate profits. I say this as a PhD-level researcher in clinical and population health, including mental health.
posted by acridrabbit at 10:55 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
I was briefly "diagnosed" with BPD at age 16 as part of a concerted, institutional effort to make ME the problem instead of my abusive family. Looking back on it now, it's absolutely incomprehensible. I'm the complete opposite in terms of ability to regulate my emotional state and emotional maturity. And yet, after a breakup a few years ago, an ex who knew my history actually tried to blame our breakup on my "BPD". I had to laugh.
People have also tried to "diagnose" me with autism. This is completely ludicrous. I'm just a smart, introverted, quirky only child.
Anyway, I say, fuck all that nonsense. Both mental AND physical "disorders" and "conditions" and "diagnoses" are mostly ways that the US healthcare system extracts profits from the vulnerable folks who are not performing maximum productivity to generate profits. I say this as a PhD-level researcher in clinical and population health, including mental health.
posted by acridrabbit at 10:55 PM on June 12 [1 favorite]
Here are some resources you might find helpful:
BPD, ADHD and Autism Ven Diagram
Mood disorders: Autism and Narcissism
Neurodiversity vs Personality Disorders
posted by Zumbador at 1:51 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
BPD, ADHD and Autism Ven Diagram
Mood disorders: Autism and Narcissism
Neurodiversity vs Personality Disorders
posted by Zumbador at 1:51 AM on June 13 [1 favorite]
Kind of shocked at the answers along the lines of "its okay if you have one of the Bad Person Disorders, you'll just have to work harder to not be a bad person :)" like if that is what medicalizing frameworks lead you to, I don't think they're worth taking that seriously! Burn your DSM today and embrace mad pride.
posted by jy4m at 5:41 AM on June 13 [5 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 5:41 AM on June 13 [5 favorites]
Hi, I've been following the answers on your question since it was posted. I think it's pretty common for circles to be accepting of common neurodivergence/mental illness like anxiety and depression and milder OC(D) and CPTS(D) but not be ready to welcome people with more "out there" experiences like dissociative identity, narcissism, borderline, bipolar, more extreme OC(D) or CPTS(D), etc. It's unfortunate, but I think people are still unlearning a lot of ableist and victim-blaming conditioning and often the more extreme of an experience someone is having, the less able they are to explain it to others in a way that's cogent, so their paths are less well understood.
I don't have educational nresources to share but I do have some anecdotes related to these more extreme experiences.
My closest friend is autistic and had a borderline diagnosis when we met. Sometimes her rejection-reactivity has made our relationship difficult but I overall have a tremendous amount of admiration for the work she has done to understand herself and I think that her having processed so much of her own reactivity makes her very empathetic when she sees me make knee jerk judgements out of my own CPTS(D) experiences. I work hard to actively foster closeness between us in a healthy way and love her more than anything, so much that I married her.
Another very good friend has CPTS(D), OC(D), AD(D) and anxiety diagnoses. I love and admire them very much, they're an incredible analytical thinker, always go to bat for me, and are truly hilarious. Sometimes they tell white lies to avoid social discomfort or because they feel shame about the ways that OC(D) limits their life. I haven't addressed this with them, it's their business how they manages their life, but it does stress me out and make me doubt them a bit sometimes. It creates some distance between us but I accept that as part of how our personalities interplay and it doesn't diminish my affection.
I have another good friend who is autistic, ADH(D) and has a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia and probably CPTS(D). They are really funny and generous to their last dollar and really scappy. We are part of the same broader local community. To be honest, they can be very difficult to communicate with and they tend to make somewhat inappropriate requests of me that I can't meet. They are often having some kind of crisis and sending many many texts in a row about it. I have blocked their text messages but I always reply to their emails and we hang out every few months. I love them a lot and I do wish to help them,but I can't be everything they need.
I have many many more anecdotes about ND people I love and admire in my life. I think that in many cases the affection I feel for them is in some way related to their difference rather than despite it, and I think if the label of ND helps you to see yourself in that light then you should proceed. I have personally benefitted a lot from professional psychiatric help, but of course that's not a universal experience and can be dangerous for some people.
At this point I don't actually think of myself as ND or mentally ill, although I think others would put me in one or both categories. In the same way, I don't think of myself as queer, but I know others think of me (gay, trans) as such. I consider that to be their and my business, respectively, and I discuss it with people who I am actually trying to fostera close relationship with, not just anyone.
I hope you can find comfort with yourself-concept. I can confidently reassure you that you are not unlovable, because no one is. That doesn't mean everyone can love you, but I am sure many can, will, and even do currently.
posted by Summers at 11:05 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
I don't have educational nresources to share but I do have some anecdotes related to these more extreme experiences.
My closest friend is autistic and had a borderline diagnosis when we met. Sometimes her rejection-reactivity has made our relationship difficult but I overall have a tremendous amount of admiration for the work she has done to understand herself and I think that her having processed so much of her own reactivity makes her very empathetic when she sees me make knee jerk judgements out of my own CPTS(D) experiences. I work hard to actively foster closeness between us in a healthy way and love her more than anything, so much that I married her.
Another very good friend has CPTS(D), OC(D), AD(D) and anxiety diagnoses. I love and admire them very much, they're an incredible analytical thinker, always go to bat for me, and are truly hilarious. Sometimes they tell white lies to avoid social discomfort or because they feel shame about the ways that OC(D) limits their life. I haven't addressed this with them, it's their business how they manages their life, but it does stress me out and make me doubt them a bit sometimes. It creates some distance between us but I accept that as part of how our personalities interplay and it doesn't diminish my affection.
I have another good friend who is autistic, ADH(D) and has a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia and probably CPTS(D). They are really funny and generous to their last dollar and really scappy. We are part of the same broader local community. To be honest, they can be very difficult to communicate with and they tend to make somewhat inappropriate requests of me that I can't meet. They are often having some kind of crisis and sending many many texts in a row about it. I have blocked their text messages but I always reply to their emails and we hang out every few months. I love them a lot and I do wish to help them,but I can't be everything they need.
I have many many more anecdotes about ND people I love and admire in my life. I think that in many cases the affection I feel for them is in some way related to their difference rather than despite it, and I think if the label of ND helps you to see yourself in that light then you should proceed. I have personally benefitted a lot from professional psychiatric help, but of course that's not a universal experience and can be dangerous for some people.
At this point I don't actually think of myself as ND or mentally ill, although I think others would put me in one or both categories. In the same way, I don't think of myself as queer, but I know others think of me (gay, trans) as such. I consider that to be their and my business, respectively, and I discuss it with people who I am actually trying to fostera close relationship with, not just anyone.
I hope you can find comfort with yourself-concept. I can confidently reassure you that you are not unlovable, because no one is. That doesn't mean everyone can love you, but I am sure many can, will, and even do currently.
posted by Summers at 11:05 AM on June 13 [3 favorites]
My partner - whom I love and is a beautiful person inside and out - has borderline PD. This was a re-diagnosis after years of being told he had bipolar (and taking 20+ medications for that). None of the stuff for bipolar made any difference in terms of how he felt about himself, his relationships with other people, or his moods. He felt like he was a just bad person who also had bipolar. Because if he was med and therapy compliant and things kept going and feeling wrong, there had to be a reason, and he figured the reason was him.
When it was suggested borderline / CPTSD might fit better, everything made sense for him, for the first time in his life. The label in his case was not a sentence, but a tool that allowed him to depersonalize some of the behaviours that troubled and plagued him. With those insights, reading, and reflection, he’s been able to come to grips with a lot of it. He’s been able to accept that the behaviours are trauma responses that he didn’t ask for. He’s worked hard on building trust in people and expressing his emotions more effectively - which in turn has helped reduce some of the emotional intensity that is what sometimes destabilizes relationships in BPD.
Borderline is wrongly stigmatized. Some of the behaviours (depending on the person) can indeed alienate people, and I think it’s fair to say that this is a predictable effect. Unexpected behaviour throws people. (Believe it or not this even applies to healthcare staff who deal with people with neurological conditions. You’d think they’d know better. Sadly often not.)
Thing is absolutely no one ever asked to struggle the way people with BPD do. I know some here reject the idea of working on things (with or without a therapist) and maintain that what should change instead is social norms. I am not sure if that is going to happen soon. I think while waiting for that, a lot of people might end up shortchanged and lose out on the opportunity to have more rewarding relationships and careers, and improved self-worth. Because that can happen for people with borderline, absolutely.
The issue imho is timely access to appropriate help. Luckily, there are a lot of resources outside of therapy - books, videos, podcasts, communities.
I do want to acknowledge the impact of sexism. Men don’t typically get a diagnosis of BPD (and suffer because of that); women and others are overdiagnosed and then have a hell of a time in healthcare systems getting any old kind of care. So if you’re in a group vulnerable to those kinds of biases, I think it’s absolutely legit to reject a diagnostic label. If you feel it does reflect your experiences, I hope you are able to benefit from any help you choose to pursue (on your own or through a healthcare system). Often it’s possible to access relevant help with a “lesser” diagnosis (depending on the system).
All the best to you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:50 PM on June 13 [2 favorites]
When it was suggested borderline / CPTSD might fit better, everything made sense for him, for the first time in his life. The label in his case was not a sentence, but a tool that allowed him to depersonalize some of the behaviours that troubled and plagued him. With those insights, reading, and reflection, he’s been able to come to grips with a lot of it. He’s been able to accept that the behaviours are trauma responses that he didn’t ask for. He’s worked hard on building trust in people and expressing his emotions more effectively - which in turn has helped reduce some of the emotional intensity that is what sometimes destabilizes relationships in BPD.
Borderline is wrongly stigmatized. Some of the behaviours (depending on the person) can indeed alienate people, and I think it’s fair to say that this is a predictable effect. Unexpected behaviour throws people. (Believe it or not this even applies to healthcare staff who deal with people with neurological conditions. You’d think they’d know better. Sadly often not.)
Thing is absolutely no one ever asked to struggle the way people with BPD do. I know some here reject the idea of working on things (with or without a therapist) and maintain that what should change instead is social norms. I am not sure if that is going to happen soon. I think while waiting for that, a lot of people might end up shortchanged and lose out on the opportunity to have more rewarding relationships and careers, and improved self-worth. Because that can happen for people with borderline, absolutely.
The issue imho is timely access to appropriate help. Luckily, there are a lot of resources outside of therapy - books, videos, podcasts, communities.
I do want to acknowledge the impact of sexism. Men don’t typically get a diagnosis of BPD (and suffer because of that); women and others are overdiagnosed and then have a hell of a time in healthcare systems getting any old kind of care. So if you’re in a group vulnerable to those kinds of biases, I think it’s absolutely legit to reject a diagnostic label. If you feel it does reflect your experiences, I hope you are able to benefit from any help you choose to pursue (on your own or through a healthcare system). Often it’s possible to access relevant help with a “lesser” diagnosis (depending on the system).
All the best to you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:50 PM on June 13 [2 favorites]
I'm autistic (formally diagnosed in my 30s), a therapist, and opinionated. Here are some thoughts:
You don't have to use any labels you don't want. However, just as an autism label is useful for shifting from "I'm so weird and broken, no one will ever understand me" to "I'm learning how to understand and accommodate my autistic brain, and I'm not alone," personality disorder labels are useful for moving from "I'm a toxic monster who can't stop hurting people" to "I have certain behavioral and emotional patterns I want to change because they impact my relationships; I meet ABC criteria for XYZ diagnosis, and the Acme treatment method has been really helpful for people like me."
As you understand yourself better and better through the lens of autism, you might find you want to explore other terms, diagnoses, etc. that might add clarity or direction for growth. I'd suggest being open to that not because you must label yourself as precisely as possible, but just because there's no benefit to ignoring new data.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:28 PM on June 13 [6 favorites]
You don't have to use any labels you don't want. However, just as an autism label is useful for shifting from "I'm so weird and broken, no one will ever understand me" to "I'm learning how to understand and accommodate my autistic brain, and I'm not alone," personality disorder labels are useful for moving from "I'm a toxic monster who can't stop hurting people" to "I have certain behavioral and emotional patterns I want to change because they impact my relationships; I meet ABC criteria for XYZ diagnosis, and the Acme treatment method has been really helpful for people like me."
As you understand yourself better and better through the lens of autism, you might find you want to explore other terms, diagnoses, etc. that might add clarity or direction for growth. I'd suggest being open to that not because you must label yourself as precisely as possible, but just because there's no benefit to ignoring new data.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:28 PM on June 13 [6 favorites]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
But I might suggest you see my profile where I've linked a reading list I've accumulated over several years of nobody being able to access therapy without jumping through major hoops and maybe not even then. There's some recommendations there for resilience material, trauma resources, and self esteem.
It's not harmful or offensive to recognize you don't fit in the neurotypical shoebox. But the wording of this question is one that some people reading it are going to need days or weeks or months to recover from. It's quite a face-punch of loathing for us, the people you're wanting solidarity from.
I'm fucking awesome, and I hope you find what you need to get to that place too.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:34 PM on June 11 [6 favorites]