Help Me research some old booze
June 4, 2024 2:00 AM Subscribe
We found this bottle of spirits in an "antiques" store of sorts and I've become intensely curious about it. I have questions that I hope someone here can help answer.
Here's a picture of said bottle.
Firstly, I'd like to figure out as close as possible as to when it was made. I have some clues so far but they're contradictory.
1) The bottle makers Mark is "J L & Co" according to amateurish googling this is from the "John Lumb & Co" Bottle works, but they stopped using that mark in 1905. (I doubt it's that old, but I can't find a reason for why it has that bottlemakers mark on and be any newer.)
2) The Bottle says London SE11 on it. The burroughs distillery moved in 1908 from Chelsea SW3 to Lambeth SE11. So it surely must be later than that.
3) It lists "proof spirit" not ABV so it can't be later than 1989.
So I want to find as near as possible what the provable age is. Anything that tightens the brackets on highest or lowest age is good.
An Expert* in old spirits has said that it's a bottleshape used by Beefeater in the 1960s. This may well be the case, but it's branding looks quite different to the other 16's era bottle I've seen. Irksomely inconclusive.
Other questions:
There's a pattern of dots punched out of the label that seem to spell out "53920". What is that? Is that like a tax mark or something like that?
Also, if I were to drink it, how many different ways might I get poisoned. (Is the foil on the top lead? for example) How can I check each of these ways? (Either to avoid poison, or just because it would be an interesting test to do)
Anything else interesting?
*Well, he runs a website that sells Old Spirits. Beyond that I can't speak to his skillbase.
Here's a picture of said bottle.
Firstly, I'd like to figure out as close as possible as to when it was made. I have some clues so far but they're contradictory.
1) The bottle makers Mark is "J L & Co" according to amateurish googling this is from the "John Lumb & Co" Bottle works, but they stopped using that mark in 1905. (I doubt it's that old, but I can't find a reason for why it has that bottlemakers mark on and be any newer.)
2) The Bottle says London SE11 on it. The burroughs distillery moved in 1908 from Chelsea SW3 to Lambeth SE11. So it surely must be later than that.
3) It lists "proof spirit" not ABV so it can't be later than 1989.
So I want to find as near as possible what the provable age is. Anything that tightens the brackets on highest or lowest age is good.
An Expert* in old spirits has said that it's a bottleshape used by Beefeater in the 1960s. This may well be the case, but it's branding looks quite different to the other 16's era bottle I've seen. Irksomely inconclusive.
Other questions:
There's a pattern of dots punched out of the label that seem to spell out "53920". What is that? Is that like a tax mark or something like that?
Also, if I were to drink it, how many different ways might I get poisoned. (Is the foil on the top lead? for example) How can I check each of these ways? (Either to avoid poison, or just because it would be an interesting test to do)
Anything else interesting?
*Well, he runs a website that sells Old Spirits. Beyond that I can't speak to his skillbase.
The label design looks very like this advertisement for Beefeater gin which is supposedly from 1959
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:27 AM on June 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:27 AM on June 4 [1 favorite]
James Burrough's distillery made Beefeater, it was their flagship product. I suggest contacting the Beefeater distillery (now owned by Chivas) on social media and posing it as a little puzzle for them.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:12 AM on June 4 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:12 AM on June 4 [7 favorites]
I believe numbered postcode subdivisions for London were introduced in 1917, and before that Chelsea would just have been SW and Lambeth SE.
posted by misteraitch at 7:42 AM on June 4 [2 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 7:42 AM on June 4 [2 favorites]
Also, if I were to drink it, how many different ways might I get poisoned. (Is the foil on the top lead? for example) How can I check each of these ways? (Either to avoid poison, or just because it would be an interesting test to do)
So from an alcohol perspective, since it's a cordial I assume it has more sugar in it than your usual spirit, which will have probably oxidized in _interesting_ ways. It probably won't kill you outright, but it might not be very appetizing, either.
On the other hand I have a cherry cordial from a few years ago that oxidized to a delightful molasses-y note, so I'd probably give it a go. I wouldn't plan on drinking the whole thing, and I'd keep my eye out for weird chunks of aged cap seal in the bottle, but I wouldn't be _particularly_ concerned about lead. There are instant lead test kits in the US but honestly in the small amounts I'd risk drinking (out of curiosity), I wouldn't be terribly concerned about picking up a clinically detectable dose of heavy metals, either.
posted by Kyol at 11:30 AM on June 4
So from an alcohol perspective, since it's a cordial I assume it has more sugar in it than your usual spirit, which will have probably oxidized in _interesting_ ways. It probably won't kill you outright, but it might not be very appetizing, either.
On the other hand I have a cherry cordial from a few years ago that oxidized to a delightful molasses-y note, so I'd probably give it a go. I wouldn't plan on drinking the whole thing, and I'd keep my eye out for weird chunks of aged cap seal in the bottle, but I wouldn't be _particularly_ concerned about lead. There are instant lead test kits in the US but honestly in the small amounts I'd risk drinking (out of curiosity), I wouldn't be terribly concerned about picking up a clinically detectable dose of heavy metals, either.
posted by Kyol at 11:30 AM on June 4
This guide might help you date the bottle. There is a LOT of information on this website.
posted by purple_bird at 5:49 PM on June 4
posted by purple_bird at 5:49 PM on June 4
Response by poster: Updates!
I had already sent a message to the beefeater distillery. No response as of yet.
I really like the advert. Label design looks really similar and the bottleshape the same. This, combined with the info from the old spirit site is convincing me of the 1950s era origin.
The postal district not existing until 1917 is an interesting point (also a minor additional point that post codes in full didn't exist until 1959. So it having SE11 on it and not the full postcode implies that it might? be pre-1959. The 1960s bottle I've seen doesn't have anything like that on it though.
I did check out that bottle site, and that's a bit of a confounding factor because the makers mark is very clearly "J L & Co" which dates the bottle to 1905 but from other evidence we can see that can't be the case. The same site also suggests that fully clear machine made glass bottles weren't around then.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:38 AM on June 5
I had already sent a message to the beefeater distillery. No response as of yet.
I really like the advert. Label design looks really similar and the bottleshape the same. This, combined with the info from the old spirit site is convincing me of the 1950s era origin.
The postal district not existing until 1917 is an interesting point (also a minor additional point that post codes in full didn't exist until 1959. So it having SE11 on it and not the full postcode implies that it might? be pre-1959. The 1960s bottle I've seen doesn't have anything like that on it though.
I did check out that bottle site, and that's a bit of a confounding factor because the makers mark is very clearly "J L & Co" which dates the bottle to 1905 but from other evidence we can see that can't be the case. The same site also suggests that fully clear machine made glass bottles weren't around then.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:38 AM on June 5
Response by poster: Yup, that's the old spirits website that I mentioned.
It's interesting that the bottle design in that is really quite different to this one, which makes me think this is a little earlier, though actually the foil seal is very similar, so maybe it's only a little earlier.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:48 AM on June 5
It's interesting that the bottle design in that is really quite different to this one, which makes me think this is a little earlier, though actually the foil seal is very similar, so maybe it's only a little earlier.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:48 AM on June 5
Response by poster: This was asked about on this podcast at about 45 minutes in.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:26 AM on June 28
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:26 AM on June 28
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:14 AM on June 4 [1 favorite]