How much leeway to give to people's capacity to change?

March 17, 2024 11:09 PM

The core of the question I want to ask today is - how have you approached connections with people who have ideas that you don't respect about things like gender and self-expression? Also; people who are snobby/juvenile? I suppose under that question is - how do you figure out when to stick it out with a connection and see if the person grows and changes?

I've [27f] been seeing this guy [25m], let's call him M, for almost two months now. I was in a total infatuation haze for month one but then slowly started to notice that M had what I would describe as cooked ideas. In one conversation he said something along the lines of "anyone who listens to Taylor Swift isn't a real man, that music is only for teenage girls and it's garbage". In another about how long was a reasonable amount of time to stay upset over something, he said to me "you should try to control your emotions, don't you want to show that women aren't over-emotional".

That conversation revolved around me having residual feelings of distance/upset following a discussion about an issue (in this case, his harsh language in the first scenario and how it makes me feel as someone who likes Taylor Swift's music while also admittedly enjoying ripping into her place in the culture industry) threatens his sense of self and that he can't be around me if I feel upset about his actions even after he's apologised. To be clear, me being upset in that situation looked like me calmly telling him I didn't appreciate him being so harsh, and then me being a bit more distant during our conversation for about half an hour afterwards because I was taken aback by the incident, but still maintaining physical closeness and being present.

All of this has been enough for me to be pretty sure I don't want to date him anymore because I can't be attracted to someone who has such a juvenile outlook on things and expresses himself with all the grace of a 14 year old.

However, I always want to approach connections from a place of believing that people can grow and I actually think M has a lot of capacity to do so. I think part of why his outlook is so under-developed is because he lost about 6 years of his life to a health condition that basically hormonally changed his personality and made it impossible for him to live a normal life. Only over the last year or so is he emerging from this and I can see in him the seeds of someone who is self-aware and emotionally sensitive. He has been able to listen to me and change his behaviour when I have asked him to do so, e.g. about the harsh language - but his ideas on gender and emotions are more deeply rooted and he has said he feels entitled to hold those opionions. So - he has potential, but is also someone who has developed a protective (but clearly very fragile) ego complex that gives him a sense of power through certain ideas of masculinity and 'good' culture.

Unfortunately for me, there are parts of our connection that I really enjoy and we connect over many shared activities and intellectual/art-related pursuits that I don’t share in the same way with other people. When we first met, it felt like I was meeting someone with whom I really shared a way of looking at the world and could explore ideas and film and music and books with in fulfilling ways. Now that this person has turned out to be emotionally immature and incapable of the kind of intimacy that I wanted to share, I'm torn about whether to cut him off completely or try stay friends.

I value and cherish the things we've shared and want to continue sharing them, but I really don't respect certain parts of his worldview and think they are actively harmful. I believe in people's capacity to change and think that we change in relationship with others so if we cut ties with everyone we disagreed with, people's toxic ideas would only ossify and become more entrenched. I know that part of the answer is that I should sense out my own red line boundary and stick to it, and I don't expect folks to be able to find that for me - what I'd really appreciate hearing is if anyone has navigated any similar situations and/or what your philosophy is when it comes to giving people space to change.

Thank you for bearing with me!

posted by fantasticbotanical to Human Relations (26 answers total)

When the fish is too small you throw it back. You don't keep it until it has grown enough to pass the minimum acceptable limits.

Throw your dude back into the ocean.
posted by dragon garlanding at 11:33 PM on March 17 [48 favorites]

Additional: An emotionally immature person is not someone you want to stay friends with after breaking up. That will not go well.
posted by dragon garlanding at 11:36 PM on March 17 [10 favorites]

Only over the last year or so is he emerging from this and I can see in him the seeds of someone who is self-aware and emotionally sensitive.

Yeah but... do you really want to stick around while he does all the 'emerging'? You will also grow and change, do you want that to be in the company of someone who is immature and judgemental? Is this what you want to be doing with your one wild and precious life? He can figure out his own journey but you deserve better on yours.

Besides which, he's showing you who is. Believe him.
posted by unicorn chaser at 1:28 AM on March 18 [8 favorites]

I don't think it's healthy or fair to *expect* friends or romantic partners to change in order for me to be able to respect them.

I might want them to change, but if the thing that I hope will change means I can't respect them, then I don't, actually, like or respect the person they are, as opposed to the person I can imagine they might become.

It's not my duty to change people I don't respect.

I'd rather spend my finite resources of time and energy on the people out there who might superficially be very different from me, but are on my wavelength, and share my fundamental moral code (which is basically "pay attention and be kind") and help them get through this difficult world we live in.
posted by Zumbador at 4:04 AM on March 18 [8 favorites]

I clicked through expecting a beloved older aunt who was struggling with the concept of non-binary people or something. A screamingly misogynist toxic masculinity guy you've known for two months? Nope, and especially nope in the context of a hetero romantic partner. Change is possible, but do you really want to spend any of your precious time on this earth with someone who has no trouble vocally and arrogantly telling you to your face that he sees you as less-than?
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 4:25 AM on March 18 [25 favorites]

his ideas on gender and emotions are more deeply rooted and he has said he feels entitled to hold those opionions

If he's going to change, he has to want to. He hasn't said he wants to change. He hasn't asked for your support changing. I don't think it does either of you any good to prolong a relationship of any kind when there are things about his worldview that you find harmful that he has no demonstrated desire to change.

I've seen a lot of growth and change in people I've been in relationship with in various capacities. I've changed a lot myself. None of that change was from me guiding someone else or them guiding me. The influence was from us being ourselves and sharing our experiences with each other from a place of enjoying each others' company and respecting each other. From what you've described, it sounds like those foundational elements are likely to be a problem, especially if (as is typically the case this early in a relationship), he's showing you his best side.
posted by EvaDestruction at 5:39 AM on March 18 [3 favorites]

I believe people can change. I also believe that, absent a few specific situations, it is not my job to be a practice target for that person's efforts at change. I did some of that when I was in my twenties, but I got tired of it and my years on earth are too short to spend that way, for the most part. There are some exceptions, like people who are parenting young family members whose lives I want to be in partly because their parents have some real nonsense going on that needs a counterbalance for the kids' sake. But mostly I'm past the stage in my life where I'm willing to do that for some who isn't already in one way or another a significant part of my life.

"Some guy I've been dating a couple of months who has told me he is not interested in changing these gendered opinions that bother me" would not qualify. Let the people who are longer-standing fixtures in his life work on convincing him to change, or if he eventually does want to change, there is no shortage of books and videos and media out there that he can pick up that will walk him through the basics of Women Are People Too. You are not going to be the make-or-break element in whether this guy continues the growth potential you see in him. And there will be other people you can talk about books with.

I also think about the well-being of my other friends. I'm not going to ask my existing friends to spend time with New Guy Who Has Great Taste In Movies But Might Bust Out With Something Incredibly Shitty About Women In The Middle Of That Conversation. So then I've got "actual friends I spend time with" and "second-tier guy who isn't allowed to meet my real friends but I keep him around to talk about books and in the hopes someday he'll get it together enough to be promoted", and that's also kind of shitty to everyone involved and not a dynamic I want to have in my life.

For both friends and partners, I believe in having people in my life that I love for who they are now, not for their growth potential. I feel the same way about it on the other end of that - I don't want my friends or family or partner to be in my life or love me for who they think I could be if I changed this, that, or the other about myself.
posted by Stacey at 5:53 AM on March 18 [17 favorites]

In the latest season of Love Is Blind (stay with me for a second) the women are discussing that they are tired of men with “potential”, and one of the women says they need to be “fully potenshed.” Please give yourself the gift of not getting involved with a man who is not fully potenshed.

Also everything nanny’s striped stocking said above.
posted by jeoc at 6:22 AM on March 18 [14 favorites]

People can change...but it doesn't have to be in the direction YOU want them to change.

In your lead-in, I could imagine the lingering effects of a serious illness that I WOULD leave some space for: limited capacity to handle stress or socialization, less time available for me than I would like, extra layers of mental health and trauma challenges.

But "real men" is a nope. "he can't be around me if I feel upset about his actions even after he's apologised" is a HARD NOPE. This guy is an asshole as well as a misogynist. Those are the least likely recoveries, and you can't fix this. All you can do is register your displeasure by voting nope here.

I'm sorry, because I get that y'all had other chemistries that can be hard to find, but this is a poop milkshake situation.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:31 AM on March 18 [6 favorites]

I think it was AskMefi where I saw this: "Women are not rehabilitation centres for men." So don't willingly sign up for all this emotional labour.

And really, I think the way to enact the most change in him is to exit stage left. Maaaybe that will be a wake up call to him, like "hm, if someone has lost interest in me because of shitty things I believe, maybe I should rethink that" or maybe it will make him become more bitter in the vein of "AWALT" (all women are like that), but this is not something you can control. You've only known him for two months! But like others have said, he has to want to change.

I feel like the only times when someone has changed toxic beliefs is when someone close to them who has known them for a really long time has called them in. Like a close friend or family member. Not in a short term dating relationship. The whole point of dating is to weed people out and you have to be really, really deliberate about it.

I think your breakup convo could go something like: "I like you for all these reasons, but your beliefs are really misogynistic and it's painful for me to hear those things. I'd rather be with someone that believes deeply that women are people."
posted by foxjacket at 6:52 AM on March 18 [7 favorites]

I think the kind of leeway you're discussing is more relevant for people whose connection to you isn't a choice. Within people you're stuck with (family, co-workers, neighbors), it splits into infinite forking paths depending on how serious the disagreement is and what your personal stakes are. My cousin who thinks there are weapons that create hurricanes? I just tiptoe around that. But if your dad has backwards views on gender and you're trans? That one may end with cutting him off.

But for people you're choosing? Your best friend or your partner? I think these are the times when you want someone to be sympatico with what your values really are.

There are a lot of articles over the last eight years or so about women in particular who thought they were being magnanimous and open-minded when they married conservative men despite having progressive ideals themselves... and are miserable now. And often divorced.

I don't think that's a life you want.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:30 AM on March 18 [6 favorites]

I always want to approach connections from a place of believing that people can grow and I actually think M has a lot of capacity to do so.

People do, sometimes, change, but never on the timeline you need them to follow.
posted by praemunire at 7:36 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]

I agree that it's good to break up with this guy because it's really hard to compartmentalize with someone you're dating, especially once you move in together (and especially if you raise a kid together).

But I disagree with people suggesting that you absolutely must avoid being this guy's friend. Certainly, take a bit of cold turkey time away from each other as a reset, but if he can stick the landing to the break up and respect your decision there is no reason not to continue to enjoy how you connect over "shared activities and intellectual/art-related pursuits that I don’t share in the same way with other people." I have had really meaningful friendships with guys who I know would be a terrible boyfriend because they were emotionally stunted in various ways, and some of whom had not so great views about gender. But we connected in other ways, and I don't need (nor expect) all my friends to be perfect people. I'll give them a hard time about their views if certain subjects come up, but otherwise our friendship focuses on where we do really click - it would be cool if they changed, and I'd like to think they are more likely to change gradually as a result of our friendship, but my fondness for them is not contingent on them changing. If you think you can manage that approach, go for it.
posted by coffeecat at 7:55 AM on March 18 [3 favorites]

With respect, you are making the time-honored mistake that millions of women have made before you in thinking a guy "has potential," is a "diamond in the rough," etc., etc. It's one thing if they have crude table manners, but telling you that you need to control your emotions, my god, please spare yourself the misery that is coming to you as surely as the sun rises. It cannot end well. It won't. I promise.
posted by HotToddy at 7:57 AM on March 18 [17 favorites]

This guy is garbage through and through and it’s not your job to change him, or watch for “growth.”
He’s presenting you the finished product, which is despicable so walk away. He is not your project, not your pet, not your problem.
posted by BostonTerrier at 8:33 AM on March 18 [2 favorites]

EvaDestruction:
If he's going to change, he has to want to. He hasn't said he wants to change. He hasn't asked for your support changing.

This. Oh so very much this. You aren't asking if he can change, you are asking if you can change him. Absolutely 100% not gonna happen.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:48 AM on March 18 [4 favorites]

It's not your job to make guys who need training wheels track ready.
posted by phunniemee at 9:48 AM on March 18 [5 favorites]

I was probably that guy, or quite similar to it. I'm very grateful to the woman with whom I had a 7 year relationship in which I grew quite a bit (though, let's be fair, not enough, I've done a lot of growing in the quarter century since), but after that time we went our own ways (though we are still in touch).

Which is fine, part of allowing people room to grow in relationships is that sometimes we grow apart, or in ways that are incompatible with the lives that our intimates want to leave, but I'd urge you to consider that it's also not your duty to carry an individual through that stage of their life. You've got room to grow and change too, and you should be doing that with people who challenge you in good ways, not stagnant ways.

The relationship works best when it serves everyone in it, and it sounds like you're gonna be doing most of the heavy lifting here. Find someone you can grow along with.
posted by straw at 9:52 AM on March 18 [2 favorites]

how do you figure out when to stick it out with a connection and see if the person grows and changes?

Generally I find that it's less grief and stress to ask myself, "Would I want to keep this person in my life if nothing about them changed for the rest of time?" and then decide based on my answer to that question. I can't answer for you, though I do have a guess about the direction you're leaning in, especially if you're asking the question here after only two months together.

he has said he feels entitled to hold those opionions

He certainly is entitled to his opinions, however immature you or we may find them. A friendship may be doable, but only if you can step back and take enough distance from him relative to where you are now - and maintain that greater distance.

But continuing a romantic relationship with someone who you feel that way about is a good way to foment resentment, for both you ("Why doesn't he ever change??") and him ("Why does she constantly expect me to change??").
posted by obliterati at 9:57 AM on March 18 [2 favorites]

You are not required to be anyone's catalyst for/of change.
You are not obligated, by past interactions or existing feelings, to be anyone's object lesson.
You are not responsible for this GROWN ASS MAN's problematic thoughts, opinions, or behaviors.
He will learn and grow, or he won't, with or without your participation.
He almost certainly won't make any effort to change until he experiences consequences (that matter TO HIM) for his problematic worldview.
Still want to be friends anyway? Sure, fine. But believe him when he says he's entitled to his shitty opinions, and grey rock that shit.
posted by ApathyGirl at 10:18 AM on March 18 [2 favorites]

My first thought is - don't waste your time, you deserve better

My second thought is - he is entitled to have a romantic partner who can accept him for who he is right now and not be in a relationship with someone who is only going to stick around if he shows progress towards changing in the partner-approved direction. Just because everyone on MetaFilter agrees that the partner approved direction is the healthier one does not take away the fact that the relationship as it stands is contingent on him changing.

At the same time, if you are looking at this guy becoming your primary (or sole) romantic partner, trying to be more accepting would be doing yourself a major disservice. Maybe if it was a cousin or a friend you could make space for the differences but, accepting as he is means accepting some really toxic views in a relationship where you want to feel like you can be authentic, vulnerable and supported.
posted by metahawk at 10:52 AM on March 18 [4 favorites]

You are SO lucky to hear this guy's misogyny early on, in the first two months, so you can bail now. Because what you've heard is only the tip of the iceberg, and it isn't going to get easier to end things the longer you stay. It doesn't matter why he thinks the way he does. Truly. I know you are in a haze of love and sex and bonding, but he is showing you who he is now. I'll share again my therapist's comment to me once, when a man had some controlling behaviors I saw in the first month of dating: she said most folks can be on their best behavior for the first three months or so, and they usually show their worst selves only after that, once you're attached, and you're lucky if you see these huge red flags early on.

This is why we date: to weed out the folks whose values don't align with our own. When we talk about people having capacity for change, it's not about having such incredibly different values with a potential primary romantic partner, and to already see huge flaws in their basic character within two months of meeting them.

For future reference, when you are dating men, ask them early on if they follow Andrew Tate or whoever is the misogynist with the biggest platform. See who they listen to now. You can try this with your current guy. If they like Tate, just move on. Don't stay friends with misogynists, either.

Also! It's not our job to fix people! That's a codependent attitude. And, it denies them agency. This guy is entitled to his misogyny!

I know the alignments you all have are hard to let go of, truly. But I can promise you this: break things off now, completely and quickly, and, in a year from now, you'll look back and be so glad that you did.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:12 AM on March 18 [3 favorites]

In my over 4 decades on this earth I have never seen a man who displays misogynistic beliefs change for the better. Not once. I've seen many get worse. I can believe that some do change, but personally I have never met those men.

We're currently in a severe backlash against women's rights, and the internet lets these men find each other and bolster their beliefs. You do not have the power to draw this man away from that. Guaranteed his family and inner circle hold the same beliefs even if they don't always announce it when you're around.

I hope this ask gives you the power to walk away. In my 20s I had to learn a lot of these lessons the hard way, and I don't want that for you.
posted by Dynex at 12:08 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]

Here's that crystal ball you need (I happen to have this one lying around, from a lifetime of living this): His garbage will escalate over time. In a few years you'll have to break up with him anyway, because by that time it will have taken a toll on your own well-being. And all that work you did to 'help him grow', will only go toward making him marginally less garbage-filled for his next girlfriend.

You are not his rehab.
posted by (F)utility at 1:41 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]

It is disrespectful to stay in a relationship with someone (romantic or otherwise) on the condition that they must try to change a whole bunch of fundamental beliefs they hold, which you consider to be a product of their immaturity.

You would find it patronizing and controlling if someone did that to you, right? Imagine someone being your friend or your boyfriend, but constantly nudging you to "grow" and "change" into accepting [insert their preferred belief system which you think bonkers]. Telling you that you'll get it when you're mature enough. Acting like you're not cooked because you don't understand how right they are. Kinda gross, right? Because it's so disrespectful to you as a person?
posted by MiraK at 1:42 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]

Friends and couples can disagree on things. But it only can work out if 1) the disagreements are not "over the line" for either of the parties and 2) the partners have devised a way to NOT talk about the areas of disagreement in the service of the relationship.

An example of 1 is that I could have a relationship with someone who doesn't appreciate my favorite musician but I couldn't if someone believed in eugenics.

For number 2, this means no "joking around" or "needling someone all in good fun". There has to be a boundary and it's a boundary of respect.

As far as your situation goes, it's wonderful that you believe that people can grow! But only you can decide if the things you appreciate about him are good enough to make it worthwhile to maintain a relationship of any kind with him. But if this is to work, it can only work if he respects you enough to take your boundaries seriously.

I'm sorry to say that your description of his behavior around the Taylor Swift thing doesn't give me a lot of hope, as it sounds like he was actively contemptuous and contempt and disgust are emotions that are quite toxic in relationships
posted by jasper411 at 3:38 PM on March 19