How to be less autistic, more likeable to succeed socially and in life?
November 26, 2023 7:32 AM Subscribe
I want to be included. I want to have friends. I want to feel like I matter. I want to succeed in life. But people don’t like me, and I don’t know how to overcome this.
As someone diagnosed with autism, I often feel hopeless when it comes to making friends or being socially acceptable.
For example, this study (link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449) found that “first impressions of individuals with ASD made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls, but also are associated with reduced intentions to pursue social interaction. These patterns are remarkably robust, occur within seconds, do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups.” This study even found that “a static image was sufficient for generating negative first impressions,” meaning that as an autistic person before I say a word to anyone I might already be rejected or perceived unfavorably by neurotypical people.
Similarly, this study (link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8992906/) found that it “was more common for perceivers to ‘like’ neurotypical than autistic targets. The number of ‘likes’ each target received correlated highly with perceiver ratings of target social favorability. Perceivers cited perceived awkwardness and lack of empathy as being reasons for deciding they disliked targets.”
Both these studies and others like them confirm what I have experienced my whole life: I am socially ostracized everywhere I am. The usual advice online is to join a club or class or find people with similar interests, but I have never experienced a positive correlation between sharing an interest and being liked or socially acceptable. People who share my interests are no less likely to perceive me unfavorably than anyone else. Having a shared interest is simply insufficient to overcome my social deficiencies. As that first study found, a static image is sufficient for an autistic person to be perceived unfavorably, which means that even if I do share an interest with a neurotypical person, they might already perceive me unfavorably before I say anything to them. Again, my personal experience confirms much of what is contained in these studies, and I have never experienced a positive correlation between a shared interest or activity and being socially acceptable.
I have posted several (later removed) questions about being a failure and wanting to commit suicide. I want to be accepted, I want to feel valued and like I matter, I want to experience friendship, I want to experience what it means to have a family, but the fact that I can’t and must endure being isolated, misunderstood, and discriminated against in life and work contributes significantly to me wanting to commit suicide. Neurotypical people can experience friendship, loving families, and success in their careers, and I want to experience the same. How do I do this? How do I be less like me and more like a neurotypical person?
As someone diagnosed with autism, I often feel hopeless when it comes to making friends or being socially acceptable.
For example, this study (link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449) found that “first impressions of individuals with ASD made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls, but also are associated with reduced intentions to pursue social interaction. These patterns are remarkably robust, occur within seconds, do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups.” This study even found that “a static image was sufficient for generating negative first impressions,” meaning that as an autistic person before I say a word to anyone I might already be rejected or perceived unfavorably by neurotypical people.
Similarly, this study (link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8992906/) found that it “was more common for perceivers to ‘like’ neurotypical than autistic targets. The number of ‘likes’ each target received correlated highly with perceiver ratings of target social favorability. Perceivers cited perceived awkwardness and lack of empathy as being reasons for deciding they disliked targets.”
Both these studies and others like them confirm what I have experienced my whole life: I am socially ostracized everywhere I am. The usual advice online is to join a club or class or find people with similar interests, but I have never experienced a positive correlation between sharing an interest and being liked or socially acceptable. People who share my interests are no less likely to perceive me unfavorably than anyone else. Having a shared interest is simply insufficient to overcome my social deficiencies. As that first study found, a static image is sufficient for an autistic person to be perceived unfavorably, which means that even if I do share an interest with a neurotypical person, they might already perceive me unfavorably before I say anything to them. Again, my personal experience confirms much of what is contained in these studies, and I have never experienced a positive correlation between a shared interest or activity and being socially acceptable.
I have posted several (later removed) questions about being a failure and wanting to commit suicide. I want to be accepted, I want to feel valued and like I matter, I want to experience friendship, I want to experience what it means to have a family, but the fact that I can’t and must endure being isolated, misunderstood, and discriminated against in life and work contributes significantly to me wanting to commit suicide. Neurotypical people can experience friendship, loving families, and success in their careers, and I want to experience the same. How do I do this? How do I be less like me and more like a neurotypical person?
The mantra I take with me is from Red Green — “if the girls don’t find ya handsome, they oughta at least find ya handy.” I have found during periods of loneliness that being useful is a balm and helps to build connections. This may sound like the “join a club” advice but it’s actually more specific than that — join a service oriented group and/or take on a small leadership role within a group that allows you to collaborate with one or two other people on some practical end. It encourages repeat encounters, it provides structure for what to talk about and how to talk about it, and at the end you both get the good feeling of having accomplished something, and some of that glow will probably reflect onto each other. Caveats: you need to have enough flexibility to be willing to take input from others on how the thing will be done, otherwise this can backfire. And I know for some spectrumy people this type of flexibility is tough.
Source: I don’t have a diagnosis but I do come from a long line of suspiciously awkward women. As an adult, the only way my mother was able to connect with people was through this specific kind of commitment (co leading my Girl Scout troop for a time, eg). It did not build friendships that outlasted the parenting phase of life, but it did make her less lonely while she was in that phase, and that’s not nothing.
One other thing — I’ve observed with some lonely/awkward people that they miss not only negative social cues but also positive ones. My mother got a million condolences cards from her neighbors when my father died, and those would have offered the perfect opportunity for her to invite someone to coffee or dinner, but she converted on exactly zero of those. It was easier to see from the outside, I think, than it would have been from the inside. You may be missing cues or misinterpreting them (telling the difference between “this pair of people deep in conversation is rejecting your attempt to join it because they dislike you” versus “because they are talking about something private and it’s just not a good moment” is not easy).
On preview, plonkee’s advice is also good.
posted by eirias at 8:00 AM on November 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
Source: I don’t have a diagnosis but I do come from a long line of suspiciously awkward women. As an adult, the only way my mother was able to connect with people was through this specific kind of commitment (co leading my Girl Scout troop for a time, eg). It did not build friendships that outlasted the parenting phase of life, but it did make her less lonely while she was in that phase, and that’s not nothing.
One other thing — I’ve observed with some lonely/awkward people that they miss not only negative social cues but also positive ones. My mother got a million condolences cards from her neighbors when my father died, and those would have offered the perfect opportunity for her to invite someone to coffee or dinner, but she converted on exactly zero of those. It was easier to see from the outside, I think, than it would have been from the inside. You may be missing cues or misinterpreting them (telling the difference between “this pair of people deep in conversation is rejecting your attempt to join it because they dislike you” versus “because they are talking about something private and it’s just not a good moment” is not easy).
On preview, plonkee’s advice is also good.
posted by eirias at 8:00 AM on November 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
See, the problem here is that you're trying to get neurotypical people to like you. Forget them; find some autistic people instead.
This study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7376620/) found that "autistic people describe feelings of comfort and ease specifically with other autistic people" and identified "[t]hree themes [...]: cross-neurotype understanding, minority status and belonging. Investigation of these themes reveals the benefits of autistic people creating and maintaining social relationships with other autistic people".
This study (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1362361320919286) found that "Autistic peer-to-peer information transfer is highly effective", confirming the predictions of Milton's "Double-Empathy Problem" framework.
Try joining a free autistic-only discussion circle or meeting other autistic people in your area or online. The #ActuallyAutistic tag on (e.g.) Mastodon is a decent place to start.
posted by heatherlogan at 8:01 AM on November 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
This study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7376620/) found that "autistic people describe feelings of comfort and ease specifically with other autistic people" and identified "[t]hree themes [...]: cross-neurotype understanding, minority status and belonging. Investigation of these themes reveals the benefits of autistic people creating and maintaining social relationships with other autistic people".
This study (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1362361320919286) found that "Autistic peer-to-peer information transfer is highly effective", confirming the predictions of Milton's "Double-Empathy Problem" framework.
Try joining a free autistic-only discussion circle or meeting other autistic people in your area or online. The #ActuallyAutistic tag on (e.g.) Mastodon is a decent place to start.
posted by heatherlogan at 8:01 AM on November 26, 2023 [27 favorites]
Neurotypical people often lack the ability to connect or empathize with neurodivergent people. This isn't the fault of ND people, it's the fault of ableism and normativity.
You can be liked and feel valued and find socialization just as you are, and it's much easier than trying to change yourself. How? By seeking kinship among other neurodivergent people. Some ways:
In the short term you can get support from neurodivergent communities online. If you use reddit, there's r/autisticpride.
In the medium term, you can find a neurodiversity-affirming therapist. (By medium term I mean start looking now, but don't worry if it takes a while.)
In the long term, make some neurodivergent friends. (By long term I mean start looking now, but don't worry if it takes a while.)
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:27 AM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
You can be liked and feel valued and find socialization just as you are, and it's much easier than trying to change yourself. How? By seeking kinship among other neurodivergent people. Some ways:
In the short term you can get support from neurodivergent communities online. If you use reddit, there's r/autisticpride.
In the medium term, you can find a neurodiversity-affirming therapist. (By medium term I mean start looking now, but don't worry if it takes a while.)
In the long term, make some neurodivergent friends. (By long term I mean start looking now, but don't worry if it takes a while.)
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:27 AM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Both of those studies are about initial first impressions and small talk, which isn't quite the same thing as likeability in longer interactions. I'm (autistic and) not great at these skills, but I've heard that acting classes can help. I did do some acting in high school and college musicals, which was quite difficult but probably did help me somewhat. The basic way to get better at social skills relevant to first impressions is to watch other people who are good at it and see what you might be able to copy without feeling too "fake". I can't handle the bubbly positive personality of most people on TikTok, but I watch some twitch streamers and nerdy YouTube channels and that has probably made me a bit better at first impressions, as long as I don't overthink it. Other people might have some specific recommendations, but you can definitely learn to be a bit better at first impressions in specific situations if you want to work on that.
"Being socially acceptable" past first impressions is a larger question, and it really depends on what is going "wrong". As others mention you may be trying to fit in with the wrong crowd as I've never been able to really feel comfortable with "normal people". It's also totally possible that you are doing something specific to turn people off. Or, it might be that social anxiety (very common for us) is causing you to think social situations are going worse than they are, which leads you to say something negative that turns off the other person. I definitely do this when I am stressed out and saying needlessly negative or confrontational things is the simplest way to not be socially acceptable. Most people do not like being constantly challenged and interrogated, but that seems to be a common tendency for many autistic people.
If I were in your situation, I would start thinking about social situations that went "wrong" and trying to guess at the most likely reasons why. There are probably multiple reasons and you don't need to perfectly identify them, but thinking about it in detail might give you ideas about areas of improvement. For example if it seems like conversations often stop awkwardly, think about what you may have said right before that. If you didn't say anything negative or confrontational, then maybe you should try to talk to different people (ie less neurotypical). Another thing to think about is cleanliness, I definitely became more "likeable" when I started taking a shower every day and using deodorant. I can't handle strong smells but I eventually found liquid soap with no additives and unscented (Mitchum) deodorant that made showering much easier.
Depression and anxiety can make this very difficult (and it is for me), but you don't need to fix everything or try to completely change who you are. Depression lies to us about when our attempts to improve are failing or succeeding, which I can deal with by writing things down to compare over time and choosing to focus on specific goals instead of broad ones like "being likable". Any progress you make towards these specific goals is real progress that can be built on over time, so I would pick the simplest one and start from there.
posted by JZig at 8:29 AM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Being socially acceptable" past first impressions is a larger question, and it really depends on what is going "wrong". As others mention you may be trying to fit in with the wrong crowd as I've never been able to really feel comfortable with "normal people". It's also totally possible that you are doing something specific to turn people off. Or, it might be that social anxiety (very common for us) is causing you to think social situations are going worse than they are, which leads you to say something negative that turns off the other person. I definitely do this when I am stressed out and saying needlessly negative or confrontational things is the simplest way to not be socially acceptable. Most people do not like being constantly challenged and interrogated, but that seems to be a common tendency for many autistic people.
If I were in your situation, I would start thinking about social situations that went "wrong" and trying to guess at the most likely reasons why. There are probably multiple reasons and you don't need to perfectly identify them, but thinking about it in detail might give you ideas about areas of improvement. For example if it seems like conversations often stop awkwardly, think about what you may have said right before that. If you didn't say anything negative or confrontational, then maybe you should try to talk to different people (ie less neurotypical). Another thing to think about is cleanliness, I definitely became more "likeable" when I started taking a shower every day and using deodorant. I can't handle strong smells but I eventually found liquid soap with no additives and unscented (Mitchum) deodorant that made showering much easier.
Depression and anxiety can make this very difficult (and it is for me), but you don't need to fix everything or try to completely change who you are. Depression lies to us about when our attempts to improve are failing or succeeding, which I can deal with by writing things down to compare over time and choosing to focus on specific goals instead of broad ones like "being likable". Any progress you make towards these specific goals is real progress that can be built on over time, so I would pick the simplest one and start from there.
posted by JZig at 8:29 AM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would also really strongly advise not trying to make yourself more appealing to neurotypical people, but to seek connection among neurodivergent people. (I’m giving this advice as an ND person myself, fwiw.) Autistic people can absolutely experience family, friendship, and career success AS autistic people.
That said, sure, there could be specific ways your particular behaviors or traits show themselves that is making it hard for you to connect in those communities, too. If there are things you do that come off as unlikeable and jerky in any setting / social group, it would make sense to work with someone like a therapist on identifying and changing those specific behaviors. They can also help you practice some neurotypical “masking” to get you through first impressions if that’s something you want. That’s something you really need to do with someone who has actually met and interacted with you, though, as it’s going to be so specific to you.
I’m sorry this is so painful; I hope you can find some connections soon.
posted by Stacey at 8:33 AM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
That said, sure, there could be specific ways your particular behaviors or traits show themselves that is making it hard for you to connect in those communities, too. If there are things you do that come off as unlikeable and jerky in any setting / social group, it would make sense to work with someone like a therapist on identifying and changing those specific behaviors. They can also help you practice some neurotypical “masking” to get you through first impressions if that’s something you want. That’s something you really need to do with someone who has actually met and interacted with you, though, as it’s going to be so specific to you.
I’m sorry this is so painful; I hope you can find some connections soon.
posted by Stacey at 8:33 AM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am not autistic but am ADHD-weird and so very much feel you on this one. One thing as I have gotten into middle-age that has worked for me is to seek out the other neuro-divergent people - basically, if I see someone else who seems on the outside looking in or interacts in a way that seems more intuitive to me then I engage them in conversation as best I am able. I find it a lot easier to get to “I have adhd” and some rules of engagement that work for me with someone else who might not grok small talk. So if there are groups around that are peer support or specifically for neurodivergent people, that might be a place to start.
It means the pool of potential friends and acquaintances is a lot shallower than it theoretically could be, but after decades of banging my head against the wall with neurotypical people it at least makes me feel less shitty to not fit in to actively try not to with people who probably won’t have me. I assure you the rest of us are out there and you fit in somewhere, you just have to find it.
posted by openhearted at 8:44 AM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
It means the pool of potential friends and acquaintances is a lot shallower than it theoretically could be, but after decades of banging my head against the wall with neurotypical people it at least makes me feel less shitty to not fit in to actively try not to with people who probably won’t have me. I assure you the rest of us are out there and you fit in somewhere, you just have to find it.
posted by openhearted at 8:44 AM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m putting this information out there because you 1) clearly value scientific evidence and 2) specifically asked for ways to connect with the neurotypical world, not because I think you need to change yourself. But if you are looking to acquire specific social skills, the UCLA PEERS program (Program for the Education and Enrichment of Relational Skills ) is an evidence-based course for different age groups that allows participants to practice social skills with a coach in a supportive environment. They have online classes as well.
The suggestions to find other autistic folks to hang out with are solid. We live in an ableist world where people value “diversity” as long as it doesn’t require them to have to adjust their thinking in any way, so trust me when I say that the problem is not you. But if you are looking for specific skills that might make interactions with NTs easier, PEERS might be beneficial.
posted by corey flood at 8:50 AM on November 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
The suggestions to find other autistic folks to hang out with are solid. We live in an ableist world where people value “diversity” as long as it doesn’t require them to have to adjust their thinking in any way, so trust me when I say that the problem is not you. But if you are looking for specific skills that might make interactions with NTs easier, PEERS might be beneficial.
posted by corey flood at 8:50 AM on November 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
I feel like those same studies also found that the unlikeablity effect is reduced if the nt person knows the other person is autistic and that its really hard and unrewarding to 'hide' nd features because its so precise in things like eye contact. A less stressful and more useful approach cheesy as it sounds could be to lean more into things that bring you joy and align with your values and be more open about being different, as well as seeking out nd community.
Instead of interests, I'd try to think about environments you actually like, ways of interacting with people that have worked, activities you actually want to do, and how set up different environments are for meeting new people, and try experiments from there to see what feels good, where you feel like you can talk to other people and they can get a sense of you as a person, and iterate from there.
A lot of unlikeablity could be being worn out from environments that don’t suit you surrounded by communication norms that dont suit you either so it could help to identify those factors and find alternatives.
posted by mosswinter at 8:52 AM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Instead of interests, I'd try to think about environments you actually like, ways of interacting with people that have worked, activities you actually want to do, and how set up different environments are for meeting new people, and try experiments from there to see what feels good, where you feel like you can talk to other people and they can get a sense of you as a person, and iterate from there.
A lot of unlikeablity could be being worn out from environments that don’t suit you surrounded by communication norms that dont suit you either so it could help to identify those factors and find alternatives.
posted by mosswinter at 8:52 AM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think you should read "Unmasking Autism" by Devon Price. This book has been so meaningful to me as an autistic person, and I hope it will be for you too.
Devon's book might help you reframe these negative stereotypes you've been pummeled with all your life, and see what's beautiful and amazing about who you are. I'm hoping it will also help you seek out friendships and community with fellow awesome neurodivergent folks. <3
Big hugs. You deserve all the kindness and friendship in the world, and you deserve to be exactly yourself.
posted by cnidaria at 8:55 AM on November 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
Devon's book might help you reframe these negative stereotypes you've been pummeled with all your life, and see what's beautiful and amazing about who you are. I'm hoping it will also help you seek out friendships and community with fellow awesome neurodivergent folks. <3
Big hugs. You deserve all the kindness and friendship in the world, and you deserve to be exactly yourself.
posted by cnidaria at 8:55 AM on November 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
I agree 100% that you'll have much better chance at happiness finding a group that celebrates neurodivergence than trying to get neurotypicals to get and appreciate you. Even if you could do it for brief periods, masking is exhausting and unsustainable.
We all know this, now, because in our age of identity, neurodiversity has become an identity. You are both lucky and unlucky in this. Lucky, because there are organized communities in a way that didn't exist to this extent previously and you can claim who you really are as a proud identity and find community with a google search. This is great news.
On the other hand do beware: As neurodivergence has become actually trendy as an identity for people who want specialness, nonconformity and uniqueness, a lot of people who really are pretty neurotypical, but who are a bit quirky within that, are claiming this neurodiversity identity too. This is their right, but in some profound ways, it's making it harder for people who struggle with autism in more classic ways. Claiming autism for an accommodation is harder when the classic socially typical, developmentally typical, high achiever who in the past would have been regarded as a quirky introvert but basically would have been accepted as "normal" is saying it too. Try to find people who you recognize as actually dwelling end of the spectrum you feel is more like you, and you'll do better with connecting.
posted by ojocaliente at 8:58 AM on November 26, 2023
We all know this, now, because in our age of identity, neurodiversity has become an identity. You are both lucky and unlucky in this. Lucky, because there are organized communities in a way that didn't exist to this extent previously and you can claim who you really are as a proud identity and find community with a google search. This is great news.
On the other hand do beware: As neurodivergence has become actually trendy as an identity for people who want specialness, nonconformity and uniqueness, a lot of people who really are pretty neurotypical, but who are a bit quirky within that, are claiming this neurodiversity identity too. This is their right, but in some profound ways, it's making it harder for people who struggle with autism in more classic ways. Claiming autism for an accommodation is harder when the classic socially typical, developmentally typical, high achiever who in the past would have been regarded as a quirky introvert but basically would have been accepted as "normal" is saying it too. Try to find people who you recognize as actually dwelling end of the spectrum you feel is more like you, and you'll do better with connecting.
posted by ojocaliente at 8:58 AM on November 26, 2023
I think Unmasking Autism is a good rec, but I prefer Devon Price’s online writing as a bit more “real talk”. It feels less filtered to be accessible for a general audience. He has a column specifically with advice for someone wondering how to cope with the implications of the research you reference (and it links the study mosswinter mentions, about how the negative effect largely disappears if people know someone is autistic).
posted by firefleet at 9:13 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by firefleet at 9:13 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm trans, autistic and vegan, and some days I feel like I should tattoo the word 'unlikeable' across my forehead three times because none of those identities are particularly socially accepted.
Suggestions for how to seem 'less autistic' to neurotypical people will always involve masking your autism, which can contribute to exhaustion and burnout. I still do it myself substantially, even though I know it's bad for me, particularly in the white collar workplace (I'm not the more engineeringy type of autistic person, which is somewhat better accepted at my work, and my job is very social and relies on strong relationships with very senior people as a relatively less senior person myself, so I don't have much of a choice). I try to unmask more at home commensurately but that's hard too.
I feel like this stuff is also extra hard if you're sensitive to the rejection signals of others, which many of us are (and, I would hazard, especially so if we were raised in less-affirming environments) - one low-ish effort/shame/stakes thing I've been trying to do more of recently is terminating any line of conversation that the other person is giving boredom signals about, because I'm droning on too long or talking about something too boring. For autistic people who can and do mask, I feel like getting as slick as possible at extricating yourself from conversations that are going on too long (either because of you or the other person) is a valuable life skill.
I also try to have a reasonably strong and vigilant filter for not saying anything too weird (or, sigh, inadvertently sexual) in the workplace, but unfortunately its weave is a little too loose and weird stuff still gets through sometimes :/
My equivalent of acting classes was doing undergrad at an internationally famous university where I kind of had to be able to make small talk with anyone, including famous guests and people of a vastly more elevated social class than me in order to scrape by. I still find it valuable even though I know it feeds the exhaustion machine that is masking.
If this sounds like applying mild ABA techniques to yourself then yeah, it kind of is. I don't exactly condone it and I respect people who choose to live unmasked or less masked than I do a lot, while recognising that masking is still a daily reality for a lot of us, and a combination of temperament/preference and trauma response for me personally. It taxes me, but overall it seems to get me through life more easily than my raw autistic self does, and that's also important for reducing other kinds of stress, like financial/housing.
I very much agree on spending more social time with other neurodivergent people - I suspect 70-80% of my friends are in that category, some incidentally made and some purposefully acquired, and it works well for me. I don't always necessarily find that I'm less socially clumsy or better able to communicate with my neurodivergent friends, it's more that we're all very forgiving of those behaviours in a way that mainstream society still isn't.
I've also recently become aware that I mostly contemplate/bring up my autism in contexts where it excuses or explains my deficits, rather than in the ways in which it contributes to my strengths, which is also very true. I plan to contemplate that further and see if I can shift the balance, which I hope will make it feel more positive and integrated with the rest of me overall.
posted by terretu at 9:13 AM on November 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Suggestions for how to seem 'less autistic' to neurotypical people will always involve masking your autism, which can contribute to exhaustion and burnout. I still do it myself substantially, even though I know it's bad for me, particularly in the white collar workplace (I'm not the more engineeringy type of autistic person, which is somewhat better accepted at my work, and my job is very social and relies on strong relationships with very senior people as a relatively less senior person myself, so I don't have much of a choice). I try to unmask more at home commensurately but that's hard too.
I feel like this stuff is also extra hard if you're sensitive to the rejection signals of others, which many of us are (and, I would hazard, especially so if we were raised in less-affirming environments) - one low-ish effort/shame/stakes thing I've been trying to do more of recently is terminating any line of conversation that the other person is giving boredom signals about, because I'm droning on too long or talking about something too boring. For autistic people who can and do mask, I feel like getting as slick as possible at extricating yourself from conversations that are going on too long (either because of you or the other person) is a valuable life skill.
I also try to have a reasonably strong and vigilant filter for not saying anything too weird (or, sigh, inadvertently sexual) in the workplace, but unfortunately its weave is a little too loose and weird stuff still gets through sometimes :/
My equivalent of acting classes was doing undergrad at an internationally famous university where I kind of had to be able to make small talk with anyone, including famous guests and people of a vastly more elevated social class than me in order to scrape by. I still find it valuable even though I know it feeds the exhaustion machine that is masking.
If this sounds like applying mild ABA techniques to yourself then yeah, it kind of is. I don't exactly condone it and I respect people who choose to live unmasked or less masked than I do a lot, while recognising that masking is still a daily reality for a lot of us, and a combination of temperament/preference and trauma response for me personally. It taxes me, but overall it seems to get me through life more easily than my raw autistic self does, and that's also important for reducing other kinds of stress, like financial/housing.
I very much agree on spending more social time with other neurodivergent people - I suspect 70-80% of my friends are in that category, some incidentally made and some purposefully acquired, and it works well for me. I don't always necessarily find that I'm less socially clumsy or better able to communicate with my neurodivergent friends, it's more that we're all very forgiving of those behaviours in a way that mainstream society still isn't.
I've also recently become aware that I mostly contemplate/bring up my autism in contexts where it excuses or explains my deficits, rather than in the ways in which it contributes to my strengths, which is also very true. I plan to contemplate that further and see if I can shift the balance, which I hope will make it feel more positive and integrated with the rest of me overall.
posted by terretu at 9:13 AM on November 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
OMG, I feel for you. I went through exactly what you went through. Please, please, please let me tell you that you can absolutely get what you need eventually. But it's going to take some work.
I'm a supposedly high-functioning autistic. Growing up, there was little knowledge of non-neurotypical people, so all I was told was that I was super-smart but super-awkward socially. Why did I have to be so shy, unlikable, etc, why couldn't I be more like Joe Popular, etc etc... Today, we know better.
Firs, let's look at your goals and your priorities: I don't know if you meant it this way, but notice the order: First, be included. Then friends. Then feel like you matter. Then succeeding. This suggests that you're looking at the issue from the perspective of what's most difficult first, rather than what's most important. Believe me, you *already* matter! You just don't feel like you do. You already matter to me, a stranger, and to your family (most likely). The, "success". What does that mean? To some, it's a gold-plated toilet and a trophy wife. To others, it's knowing you helped some people. Activists and philanthropists don't need people to tell them they are a great person to feel good and feel successful.
Then friends: You say people don't like you. But most likely, it's just that the way you interact with them doesn't work well, or you don't have the same interests. Even Joe Popular doesn't start out "liking" his frat bros. They just like to do the same dumb things, so there's no awkward moment (or not enough to make a difference). The more you get to know yourself and what YOU like, the easier it will be to find people to share these interests with. Do you have super narrow, sterotypical "autistic interests"? Do you collect flags, or train schedules (cliches, I know)? Are you an expert on 1960s nudie films or Krautrock? Doesn't matter. The internet is vast enough that there are N+1 people sitting around waiting for you to share your opinions. Just manage your expectations: Even non-autistics can be shy, awkward or socially inept when they meet new people. The trick is to avoid the assumption that you seem to make: "If this encounter didn't go the way I imagined or hoped in my mental rehearsal, I must have done something wrong and it's my fault". It's not, and you didn't!
Lastly, success: Being autistic can indeed hurt your career prospects. But only if the career you pursue is one based on sunny social interactions. Do you need to be a used car salesman, a telemarketer or a retail clerk? How about a career where people will value who you really are? Could you make a great analyst, a private detective (hm, maybe not ;)), a technical specialist, a writer, etc? As long as you don't have to spend your time entertaining team members and clients around a beer, you can find a field that fits you, rather than trying to punch through a wall with your head.
All this to say: I used to be where you are. In my teens and my 20's, I was lost, desperate and suicidal at times. Being autistic (and curious) I conducted extensive social psychology experiments, where I would try to change one variable at a time (changing my clothes, no that wasn't it. my voice? no. Non verbal behaviours. Nothing. My hair, my teeth, my mannerisms, no. Drink beer? no thanks. In desperation I even did one-way mirror experiments, pheromone research, etc). Nothing worked.
Then one day, I suddenly realised: Wait a minute, I got a job I like. I have my own interests. I don't have a million friends but just a couple close ones. And I don't enjoy going to parties and trying to make small talk. Why do I have to be the one doing stuff I don't like so some insipid extrovert will "like" me? CLICK.
These days, I don't feel suicidal. I feel content. I don't have the kind of life my 20 year old self yearned for. And thank dog! I was superficial and lame at 20. Nowadays, I have a handful of good friends. I have a special person who loves me for the weird person I am. I have puppies and kitties who don't care how socially slick my banter is. And I have interests I pursue which keep me interested and happy, even if the frat bros don't share them.
Most importantly, the painful, horrible solitude and loneliness of my youth has morphed into blessed quietness and calm. Not a void or a lack. Just a fullness of a content life.
Right now, it feels like you're facing a mountain of pain and obstacles. Just start climbing anyway, and the mountain will take you to a new vista, high up above your prior sense of failure. Now put your kis on, and gently ride down to the other side. You have a whole life ahead of you, and many autistic (and the nicer, non autistic ones) to meet in time. Don't be in such a hurry to radically change. It's a long journey. You can do it.
Start with the easy tasks: As others have mentioned, there are many support groups for people like us (introverts, neurodiverse, autistic, choose your label). There are countless interest groups. There are many way to help those (even) less fortunate than you. You'd be amazed what helping a stranger feels like. Most importantly, get to know yourself better: Not the "icky" stuff. You already feel that too intensely. But the quirky stuff. What makes you unique. The interesting stuff. What you are good at, interested in. Try on different hats. Some will look silly on you. But eventually one will feel like it fits right.
I'm rooting for you!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 9:43 AM on November 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm a supposedly high-functioning autistic. Growing up, there was little knowledge of non-neurotypical people, so all I was told was that I was super-smart but super-awkward socially. Why did I have to be so shy, unlikable, etc, why couldn't I be more like Joe Popular, etc etc... Today, we know better.
Firs, let's look at your goals and your priorities: I don't know if you meant it this way, but notice the order: First, be included. Then friends. Then feel like you matter. Then succeeding. This suggests that you're looking at the issue from the perspective of what's most difficult first, rather than what's most important. Believe me, you *already* matter! You just don't feel like you do. You already matter to me, a stranger, and to your family (most likely). The, "success". What does that mean? To some, it's a gold-plated toilet and a trophy wife. To others, it's knowing you helped some people. Activists and philanthropists don't need people to tell them they are a great person to feel good and feel successful.
Then friends: You say people don't like you. But most likely, it's just that the way you interact with them doesn't work well, or you don't have the same interests. Even Joe Popular doesn't start out "liking" his frat bros. They just like to do the same dumb things, so there's no awkward moment (or not enough to make a difference). The more you get to know yourself and what YOU like, the easier it will be to find people to share these interests with. Do you have super narrow, sterotypical "autistic interests"? Do you collect flags, or train schedules (cliches, I know)? Are you an expert on 1960s nudie films or Krautrock? Doesn't matter. The internet is vast enough that there are N+1 people sitting around waiting for you to share your opinions. Just manage your expectations: Even non-autistics can be shy, awkward or socially inept when they meet new people. The trick is to avoid the assumption that you seem to make: "If this encounter didn't go the way I imagined or hoped in my mental rehearsal, I must have done something wrong and it's my fault". It's not, and you didn't!
Lastly, success: Being autistic can indeed hurt your career prospects. But only if the career you pursue is one based on sunny social interactions. Do you need to be a used car salesman, a telemarketer or a retail clerk? How about a career where people will value who you really are? Could you make a great analyst, a private detective (hm, maybe not ;)), a technical specialist, a writer, etc? As long as you don't have to spend your time entertaining team members and clients around a beer, you can find a field that fits you, rather than trying to punch through a wall with your head.
All this to say: I used to be where you are. In my teens and my 20's, I was lost, desperate and suicidal at times. Being autistic (and curious) I conducted extensive social psychology experiments, where I would try to change one variable at a time (changing my clothes, no that wasn't it. my voice? no. Non verbal behaviours. Nothing. My hair, my teeth, my mannerisms, no. Drink beer? no thanks. In desperation I even did one-way mirror experiments, pheromone research, etc). Nothing worked.
Then one day, I suddenly realised: Wait a minute, I got a job I like. I have my own interests. I don't have a million friends but just a couple close ones. And I don't enjoy going to parties and trying to make small talk. Why do I have to be the one doing stuff I don't like so some insipid extrovert will "like" me? CLICK.
These days, I don't feel suicidal. I feel content. I don't have the kind of life my 20 year old self yearned for. And thank dog! I was superficial and lame at 20. Nowadays, I have a handful of good friends. I have a special person who loves me for the weird person I am. I have puppies and kitties who don't care how socially slick my banter is. And I have interests I pursue which keep me interested and happy, even if the frat bros don't share them.
Most importantly, the painful, horrible solitude and loneliness of my youth has morphed into blessed quietness and calm. Not a void or a lack. Just a fullness of a content life.
Right now, it feels like you're facing a mountain of pain and obstacles. Just start climbing anyway, and the mountain will take you to a new vista, high up above your prior sense of failure. Now put your kis on, and gently ride down to the other side. You have a whole life ahead of you, and many autistic (and the nicer, non autistic ones) to meet in time. Don't be in such a hurry to radically change. It's a long journey. You can do it.
Start with the easy tasks: As others have mentioned, there are many support groups for people like us (introverts, neurodiverse, autistic, choose your label). There are countless interest groups. There are many way to help those (even) less fortunate than you. You'd be amazed what helping a stranger feels like. Most importantly, get to know yourself better: Not the "icky" stuff. You already feel that too intensely. But the quirky stuff. What makes you unique. The interesting stuff. What you are good at, interested in. Try on different hats. Some will look silly on you. But eventually one will feel like it fits right.
I'm rooting for you!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 9:43 AM on November 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
The first thing I recommend is focussing more on the question what you might like about other people, and less on what they might like about you. For various reasons: you can't look into other people's mind, so you can at best guess the answer to the second question - spending too much time on ultimately unanswerable questions is a waste. Also, thinking about whether _you_ actually like that person makes you pay a different sort of attention, and it will make you give off a different vibe. Finally, you avoid running after people you don't actually appreciate, just because you feel you can't be picky, which will always become apparent, how unfailingly accommodating and selfless you act, and which only causes misery and resentment for everyone involved.
I suspect that might automatically sort out that "not being popular with neurotypicals" problem, because it's high-key likely that you don't actually enjoy their company either. No longer chasing the approval of neurotypicals might free up a lot of inner resources you can use to find your own people. But you also don't need to befriend someone, _just_ because they are also neuro-divergent, you know. Shared outsider-status can be a very powerful thing to bond over, but if it's the only thing to bond over, that can be very miserable too. Stay picky!
You might find that counter-intuitive. You might think that beggars can't be choosers. But you always have a choice - you chan choose to keep looking for someone else - and it's important that other people know that. People want to feel chosen!
One thing I want to push back on is this idea that first impressions are destiny. I'm not always great with first impressions either. I have a resting-sullen-face. I can be rather absentminded, especially when I'm stressed, or too absorbed in some personal project, and I'm going to miss all the social cues when I'm not paying attention. I was told (by my worst boss, so maybe not the most credible source, but still) that I can come across as autistic too.
So I'm not usually the first choice for many people, when it comes to looking for a connection. But that used to bother me a lot more than it does now. Because I've sometimes found that time is one my side. If I don't try to force intimacy too quickly, and focus on my own feelings instead of others' approval, I find that It actually often takes _me_ a while to genuinely warm up to someone - so it's only logical that it would also take them a while to warm up to me. But people can grow on each other! Many great qualities of a personality are not always immediately apparent. I've often had to later revise my first impression of someone I wrote off too quickyl! Haven't you?
You don't need people to be especially impressed or charmed by you to get on well with them. You need them to trust you. Right now, neurotypical people might not, because they sense they can't read you well. It's not your fault - remember, it's not you they can't trust, it's their their own reading of you. Because they are likely to suck at reading neuro-diverse people right. This step is going to be a lot easier with non-neurotypicals.
To win someone's trust, it's helpful to make them feel at ease. To make someone feel at ease, it's helpful to feel at ease yourself. To be at ease yourself, it's helpful to lower the stakes of the interaction. You just need to be reasonable and polite, to meet your own standards of decent behavior. You don't need that other person to like you; you don't even know yet if you like them yourself. Not every interaction has to result in a deep bond. There's value in shallow relationships too! That's going to make for a much for relaxed atmosphere than going into the situation with a clear goal to make friends.
posted by sohalt at 9:45 AM on November 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I suspect that might automatically sort out that "not being popular with neurotypicals" problem, because it's high-key likely that you don't actually enjoy their company either. No longer chasing the approval of neurotypicals might free up a lot of inner resources you can use to find your own people. But you also don't need to befriend someone, _just_ because they are also neuro-divergent, you know. Shared outsider-status can be a very powerful thing to bond over, but if it's the only thing to bond over, that can be very miserable too. Stay picky!
You might find that counter-intuitive. You might think that beggars can't be choosers. But you always have a choice - you chan choose to keep looking for someone else - and it's important that other people know that. People want to feel chosen!
One thing I want to push back on is this idea that first impressions are destiny. I'm not always great with first impressions either. I have a resting-sullen-face. I can be rather absentminded, especially when I'm stressed, or too absorbed in some personal project, and I'm going to miss all the social cues when I'm not paying attention. I was told (by my worst boss, so maybe not the most credible source, but still) that I can come across as autistic too.
So I'm not usually the first choice for many people, when it comes to looking for a connection. But that used to bother me a lot more than it does now. Because I've sometimes found that time is one my side. If I don't try to force intimacy too quickly, and focus on my own feelings instead of others' approval, I find that It actually often takes _me_ a while to genuinely warm up to someone - so it's only logical that it would also take them a while to warm up to me. But people can grow on each other! Many great qualities of a personality are not always immediately apparent. I've often had to later revise my first impression of someone I wrote off too quickyl! Haven't you?
You don't need people to be especially impressed or charmed by you to get on well with them. You need them to trust you. Right now, neurotypical people might not, because they sense they can't read you well. It's not your fault - remember, it's not you they can't trust, it's their their own reading of you. Because they are likely to suck at reading neuro-diverse people right. This step is going to be a lot easier with non-neurotypicals.
To win someone's trust, it's helpful to make them feel at ease. To make someone feel at ease, it's helpful to feel at ease yourself. To be at ease yourself, it's helpful to lower the stakes of the interaction. You just need to be reasonable and polite, to meet your own standards of decent behavior. You don't need that other person to like you; you don't even know yet if you like them yourself. Not every interaction has to result in a deep bond. There's value in shallow relationships too! That's going to make for a much for relaxed atmosphere than going into the situation with a clear goal to make friends.
posted by sohalt at 9:45 AM on November 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
ADHD but neurotypical for purposes of this discussion.
I just me-mailed you about some antisocial behavior by neurotypical people. In situations where people with ASD feel bad about themselves after a lifetime of bullying and ostracism by neurotypical people, the problematic neurology is not on the ASD end of the spectrum but on the neurotypical end. It's maybe not in all ways a club to aspire to join, IOW.
But anyway why I comment now is, I think you and I are in different generations and I'm a lot older. And I think that when you get to be my age, your age-mate neurotypical people are probably going to know a lot more and have lived and experienced a lot more and those of them capable of learning will therefore be a lot less unpleasant to be around. In the meantime, pls stop blaming your position on the spectrum for the poor behavior of people occupying another position on the spectrum. All of that crap they get up to is on them, not you.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:23 AM on November 26, 2023
I just me-mailed you about some antisocial behavior by neurotypical people. In situations where people with ASD feel bad about themselves after a lifetime of bullying and ostracism by neurotypical people, the problematic neurology is not on the ASD end of the spectrum but on the neurotypical end. It's maybe not in all ways a club to aspire to join, IOW.
But anyway why I comment now is, I think you and I are in different generations and I'm a lot older. And I think that when you get to be my age, your age-mate neurotypical people are probably going to know a lot more and have lived and experienced a lot more and those of them capable of learning will therefore be a lot less unpleasant to be around. In the meantime, pls stop blaming your position on the spectrum for the poor behavior of people occupying another position on the spectrum. All of that crap they get up to is on them, not you.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:23 AM on November 26, 2023
Neurotypical people can experience friendship, loving families, and success in their careers, and I want to experience the same.
You proceed from a false assumption. These gifts, friendship, families, success are not given to all or even most "neurotypical" people. You might achieve these, but you aren't entitled to them and you shouldn't use obtaining them as the basis for your self-esteem.
How do I be less like me
That question is just wrong, wrong, wrong. You'll never be anyone other than who you are. You have your strengths, you have your weaknesses. You need to learn to be yourself, not become an imposter. You understand that if you "act likeable", people aren't going to like you, they're going to like the actor.
You need to accept that this is your struggle and yeah, as much as it sucks to hear it, the struggle to become and accept who you are is going to last a lifetime. News bulletin: that's life for most folks.
"Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." --- various
posted by SPrintF at 10:49 AM on November 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
You proceed from a false assumption. These gifts, friendship, families, success are not given to all or even most "neurotypical" people. You might achieve these, but you aren't entitled to them and you shouldn't use obtaining them as the basis for your self-esteem.
How do I be less like me
That question is just wrong, wrong, wrong. You'll never be anyone other than who you are. You have your strengths, you have your weaknesses. You need to learn to be yourself, not become an imposter. You understand that if you "act likeable", people aren't going to like you, they're going to like the actor.
You need to accept that this is your struggle and yeah, as much as it sucks to hear it, the struggle to become and accept who you are is going to last a lifetime. News bulletin: that's life for most folks.
"Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." --- various
posted by SPrintF at 10:49 AM on November 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
These autistic-specific recommendations are on target. Not just to meet other people on the spectrum, but because through them, you may also meet those who are neurotypical who ARE comfortable with those on the spectrum.
I have an adult child and a teen bonus child who are on the spectrum, but it's another one of my children that i wanted to mention. She is a neurotypical early-20-something, and over her lifetime has acquired multiple friends - and now a boyfriend - who are on the spectrum. I suspect it's because she's so comfortable with her sibling/half-sibling that she either really doesn't register the difference initially or doesn't care. (The first friend, she was no more than 7 or 8.)
Acquiring social skills, even if you have to deliberately learn them, are one thing.
But don't change you. Find the people who deserve you just as you are.
posted by stormyteal at 11:35 AM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have an adult child and a teen bonus child who are on the spectrum, but it's another one of my children that i wanted to mention. She is a neurotypical early-20-something, and over her lifetime has acquired multiple friends - and now a boyfriend - who are on the spectrum. I suspect it's because she's so comfortable with her sibling/half-sibling that she either really doesn't register the difference initially or doesn't care. (The first friend, she was no more than 7 or 8.)
Acquiring social skills, even if you have to deliberately learn them, are one thing.
But don't change you. Find the people who deserve you just as you are.
posted by stormyteal at 11:35 AM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Love yourself, find people who are as comfortable interacting with you as you are with them, and sure, if you have to do a bit of work to meet them halfway, and want to, then do that.
But doing all the work, maximum effort, to meet them where they are by changing who you are, that's exhausting and would burn most people out, neuro-spicy or not.
posted by zippy at 11:50 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
But doing all the work, maximum effort, to meet them where they are by changing who you are, that's exhausting and would burn most people out, neuro-spicy or not.
posted by zippy at 11:50 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do not have a diagnosis, but I was a very weird/awkward kid, and have gradually become a substantially less weird/awkward adult. I also know a few people who have been diagnosed with ASD. So this advice comes from a mix of indirect/direct experience.
First, the person I know best with ASD found her diagnosis helpful for how it made it easier for her to recognize her needs and to get better about advocating for them. For example: sometime after her diagnosis, she made travel plans with two friends. Her friends were keen to pack the days full of activities. According to her, pre-diagnosis she most likely would have felt anxious about this but not said anything, feel compelled to try and keep up with them, and eventually snap causing a fight. But now, she was able to say "These plans all sound cool, but as you both know I'm autistic, and that limits how much stimulation I can handle - I will want to prioritize [x activities], which means I will might need to skip out on [x activities] and use that time to just unwind in the Airbnb. Please don't take it personally if that happens." And then she did do just that when she realized she needed a break. It was a successful trip for her not so much because she was "less autistic" but because she has gotten better at recognizing her limits and listening to and advocating for herself. A therapist can help you learn how to do this if it doesn't come naturally.
Second, I agree with everyone encouraging you to lower the bar for what counts as success a bit. In your previous Asks it's clear that you do engage in a lot of self-hate, and I know (believe me) that undoing that is much easier said than done, but it is really hard to make friends when you hate yourself. If you join an activity club and don't make any friends, but you do get good at an activity, which in turn makes you feel better about yourself, you will be in a better mindset to make friends and that should still be seen as a success.
And finally, yes, seek out other ASD people, or even people who just self-identify as weird/awkward - we tend to have our own scars from childhood too, and be a bit more forgiving. Good luck.
posted by coffeecat at 12:02 PM on November 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
First, the person I know best with ASD found her diagnosis helpful for how it made it easier for her to recognize her needs and to get better about advocating for them. For example: sometime after her diagnosis, she made travel plans with two friends. Her friends were keen to pack the days full of activities. According to her, pre-diagnosis she most likely would have felt anxious about this but not said anything, feel compelled to try and keep up with them, and eventually snap causing a fight. But now, she was able to say "These plans all sound cool, but as you both know I'm autistic, and that limits how much stimulation I can handle - I will want to prioritize [x activities], which means I will might need to skip out on [x activities] and use that time to just unwind in the Airbnb. Please don't take it personally if that happens." And then she did do just that when she realized she needed a break. It was a successful trip for her not so much because she was "less autistic" but because she has gotten better at recognizing her limits and listening to and advocating for herself. A therapist can help you learn how to do this if it doesn't come naturally.
Second, I agree with everyone encouraging you to lower the bar for what counts as success a bit. In your previous Asks it's clear that you do engage in a lot of self-hate, and I know (believe me) that undoing that is much easier said than done, but it is really hard to make friends when you hate yourself. If you join an activity club and don't make any friends, but you do get good at an activity, which in turn makes you feel better about yourself, you will be in a better mindset to make friends and that should still be seen as a success.
And finally, yes, seek out other ASD people, or even people who just self-identify as weird/awkward - we tend to have our own scars from childhood too, and be a bit more forgiving. Good luck.
posted by coffeecat at 12:02 PM on November 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I spent so much of my childhood, teens and adulthood feeling like I didn't belong and that I wasn't a likeable person, that I didn't have "real" friends, etc etc.
Now that I'm an old, I have grown much more comfortable with myself and have learned to ignore those voices inside me. I found an activity (cycling) that I can do by myself or in a group, and it's a perfect way to get exercise and social activity. Bicycling is chock full of people who are socially awkward and so I don't always feel like the sole odd duck in the group, if I'm a group that is.
At some point the little lightbulb went on over my head that I was on the spectrum, and that realization helped me have a better understanding about my own particular weirdness.
You need to find the thing that brings you joy and do it without assigning importance to how others may perceive your participation. The vast majority of people are too busy listening to their own demons to really care about you. You have self worth and deserve to enjoy your life. Stop repeating the lies your brain tells you. That narrative is not true. Repeat: You deserve to be loved, even if the only one who loves you is yourself.
I've read your previous questions and the level of self-loathing you carry is distressing to me, because I have felt it so many times over the years. I want to hug you and have you over for coffee and a big slice of cake.
I wish you well. May you find grace and peace within yourself. You can do it.
Please DM me if you want to talk.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Now that I'm an old, I have grown much more comfortable with myself and have learned to ignore those voices inside me. I found an activity (cycling) that I can do by myself or in a group, and it's a perfect way to get exercise and social activity. Bicycling is chock full of people who are socially awkward and so I don't always feel like the sole odd duck in the group, if I'm a group that is.
At some point the little lightbulb went on over my head that I was on the spectrum, and that realization helped me have a better understanding about my own particular weirdness.
You need to find the thing that brings you joy and do it without assigning importance to how others may perceive your participation. The vast majority of people are too busy listening to their own demons to really care about you. You have self worth and deserve to enjoy your life. Stop repeating the lies your brain tells you. That narrative is not true. Repeat: You deserve to be loved, even if the only one who loves you is yourself.
I've read your previous questions and the level of self-loathing you carry is distressing to me, because I have felt it so many times over the years. I want to hug you and have you over for coffee and a big slice of cake.
I wish you well. May you find grace and peace within yourself. You can do it.
Please DM me if you want to talk.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm autistic too, and I can only echo: befriend other neurodivergent people! We're the best. We see you, we get your struggles, we communicate similarly, we don't care if you're awkward as long as you're kind.
90% of my friends are autistic, ADHD or both. And it's not a terrible numbers game to find us either. ADHD people are 3-5% of the population, autistic people are 2-4%. That's millions of people. That's bigger than my dating pool as a lesbian!
I know it's hard to undo the grief and shame of chronic mistreatment. I felt so many overwhelming emotions when I realized I was autistic. It was awful realizing that my problems weren't due to laziness, or depression, or something else I could make "go away" if I just handled it right. There is a fundamental mismatch between dominant modes of behavior and my own way of being, and I doubt that will change in my lifetime.
But it is the unkindness of the majority that is wrong, not our neurotype! I hope someday you will be able to cultivate a sense of pride in yourself. You have so much going for you, and the painful effects of complex trauma can shift with time and therapeutic work. That little voice telling you it will never work out protected you in the past, when you were too small to do anything about your situation. But it's time to update your reality. There are so, so many autistic people who are looking for love, friendship and belonging. Come find us!
Divergent Conversations podcast
Hiki, Feeld and OKCupid for making friends
Facebook groups: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
There are also thriving autistic subcultures on Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and Discord. Check out the tag #actuallyautistic
Discovering a Trauma-Informed Positive Autistic Identity
Autistic Traits vs. Autistic Trauma
Overlap of autism and PTSD
Autistic Strengths & Challenges
I don't know what sort of therapies you've tried, but CBT and DBT are NOT recommended for most autistic people. They're not adapted to our brains and nervous systems, and they're not great for handling complex trauma. I recommend looking for a neurodiversity-affirming provider who is autistic themselves and who offers somatic therapy, a memory reprocessing technique like EMDR, or a psychodynamic orientation like Internal Family Systems. If you like the DBT approach, here's a workbook that's actually modified for us. You can do this!
posted by lloquat at 5:13 PM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
90% of my friends are autistic, ADHD or both. And it's not a terrible numbers game to find us either. ADHD people are 3-5% of the population, autistic people are 2-4%. That's millions of people. That's bigger than my dating pool as a lesbian!
I know it's hard to undo the grief and shame of chronic mistreatment. I felt so many overwhelming emotions when I realized I was autistic. It was awful realizing that my problems weren't due to laziness, or depression, or something else I could make "go away" if I just handled it right. There is a fundamental mismatch between dominant modes of behavior and my own way of being, and I doubt that will change in my lifetime.
But it is the unkindness of the majority that is wrong, not our neurotype! I hope someday you will be able to cultivate a sense of pride in yourself. You have so much going for you, and the painful effects of complex trauma can shift with time and therapeutic work. That little voice telling you it will never work out protected you in the past, when you were too small to do anything about your situation. But it's time to update your reality. There are so, so many autistic people who are looking for love, friendship and belonging. Come find us!
Divergent Conversations podcast
Hiki, Feeld and OKCupid for making friends
Facebook groups: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
There are also thriving autistic subcultures on Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and Discord. Check out the tag #actuallyautistic
Discovering a Trauma-Informed Positive Autistic Identity
Autistic Traits vs. Autistic Trauma
Overlap of autism and PTSD
Autistic Strengths & Challenges
I don't know what sort of therapies you've tried, but CBT and DBT are NOT recommended for most autistic people. They're not adapted to our brains and nervous systems, and they're not great for handling complex trauma. I recommend looking for a neurodiversity-affirming provider who is autistic themselves and who offers somatic therapy, a memory reprocessing technique like EMDR, or a psychodynamic orientation like Internal Family Systems. If you like the DBT approach, here's a workbook that's actually modified for us. You can do this!
posted by lloquat at 5:13 PM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
In neurodivergent and spent my entire childhood struggling to make friends, to the point where I very much deeply believed I was broken. Moving away from my hometown allowed me to finally meet likeminded people and start to find groups where I belong. In time we would all be diagnosed as neurodivergent. I cannot second the advice about finding other neurodivergent people enough. Let the neurotypicals go—I’m still not comfortable around the vast majority of them, but in neurodivergents I have found my people.
I know this is hard but I would strongly encourage you to work in accepting yourself and your autism first. Your negative self talk reads as a lot of depression clouding your judgment of yourself. You are as valuable and worthy of acceptance as anyone on this earth. Your autism has no bearing on your self worth. If you have not already, find a therapist who neurodiversity affirming in their approach and who can help you work on self-acceptance. And, honestly, meds can be life changing for people with depression, if you haven’t tried that already.
This is hard but I really think that accepting yourself and finding other autistic people could make a huge difference for you. Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 5:48 PM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know this is hard but I would strongly encourage you to work in accepting yourself and your autism first. Your negative self talk reads as a lot of depression clouding your judgment of yourself. You are as valuable and worthy of acceptance as anyone on this earth. Your autism has no bearing on your self worth. If you have not already, find a therapist who neurodiversity affirming in their approach and who can help you work on self-acceptance. And, honestly, meds can be life changing for people with depression, if you haven’t tried that already.
This is hard but I really think that accepting yourself and finding other autistic people could make a huge difference for you. Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 5:48 PM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if this is useful to hear, but about 10 years ago I (a neurotypical person) went on a date with a guy who wouldn't even look at me, fidgeted around like he was bored, kept his arms folded across his chest, gave very short answers to my questions and didn't laugh at any of my little self deprecating jokes. I felt awful - this guy clearly found me incredibly unattractive and not remotely funny or interesting, and it was a very long hour of sitting there. When I suggested it was time to end the date, he asked if I'd like to meet up again and I was so shocked because I had been sure he'd been having the worst date of his life, which made me feel like I was having the worst date of my life. My ego took a huge hit from that date. The whole baffling experience lived rent free in my mind until I told a friend who said - he was probably just autistic and suddenly it made WAY more sense. I have often thought since, that if I'd known he was autistic, or if I'd known more about neurodiversity, I would have spent less time feeling self conscious about how I thought this guy was regarding me, and more time actually connecting in a way that was better for both of us.
I guess I share the story to say that sometimes neurotypical people might be thinking from cues that an NT person would use to indicate disinterest that you don't like them (and people tend to like people who like them) - and also that if you want to have NT friends, while in a perfect world they'd educate themselves, you might need to just let them know that your communication style tends to be xyz or whatever is relevant.
These days I have a heap of neurodivergent friends and it works great, in large part because we both know and accept that we'll have some cross cultural miscommunications sometimes, but we will always assume the best and talk about it, which requires quite a lot of vulnerability and trust on both of our accounts.
posted by Chrysalis at 7:24 PM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I guess I share the story to say that sometimes neurotypical people might be thinking from cues that an NT person would use to indicate disinterest that you don't like them (and people tend to like people who like them) - and also that if you want to have NT friends, while in a perfect world they'd educate themselves, you might need to just let them know that your communication style tends to be xyz or whatever is relevant.
These days I have a heap of neurodivergent friends and it works great, in large part because we both know and accept that we'll have some cross cultural miscommunications sometimes, but we will always assume the best and talk about it, which requires quite a lot of vulnerability and trust on both of our accounts.
posted by Chrysalis at 7:24 PM on November 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Autistic person here, and oh, do I know this pain.
This episode of The Neurodivergent Woman deals with Friendship, and has some practical advice about the differences between ND and NT people when it comes to friendship, and how to avoid common misunderstandings.
I found online autistic and ND communities incredibly helpful for giving me the emotional support I need.
r/autisminwomen is pretty good, and so is the @actuallyautistic@a.gup.pe on Mastodon.
Working on lowering my anxiety levels overall is also essential as it means that the inevitable bumps and bruises of NT interaction hurts less.
If I were in your situation, I would start thinking about social situations that went "wrong" and trying to guess at the most likely reasons why.
This made me chuckle bitterly 😅 and 8leggedfriend, this is a lovely example of how important it is to search out other autistic or ADHD people for advice.
(For other neurotypical people reading this, ND people spend an enormous part of our lives replaying social interactions over and over again desperately trying to figure out what we are doing wrong)
posted by Zumbador at 7:41 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
This episode of The Neurodivergent Woman deals with Friendship, and has some practical advice about the differences between ND and NT people when it comes to friendship, and how to avoid common misunderstandings.
I found online autistic and ND communities incredibly helpful for giving me the emotional support I need.
r/autisminwomen is pretty good, and so is the @actuallyautistic@a.gup.pe on Mastodon.
Working on lowering my anxiety levels overall is also essential as it means that the inevitable bumps and bruises of NT interaction hurts less.
If I were in your situation, I would start thinking about social situations that went "wrong" and trying to guess at the most likely reasons why.
This made me chuckle bitterly 😅 and 8leggedfriend, this is a lovely example of how important it is to search out other autistic or ADHD people for advice.
(For other neurotypical people reading this, ND people spend an enormous part of our lives replaying social interactions over and over again desperately trying to figure out what we are doing wrong)
posted by Zumbador at 7:41 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Speaking as a neurodivergent (autistic/ADHD/other mental illness) person:
How do you know the person you are talking to is neurotypical?
They could also be neurodivergent in some way and now you're just in a feedback loop of awkward.
I find the "neurotypicals do this" framing highly unhelpful because a lot of """neurotypical""" behaviour is more accurately White/Male/American/Local/Fully Abled behaviour, and doesn't account for other cultural norms or even other disabilities that can affect communication & social skills. They may be """neurotypical""" in the sense that they're not autistic like you or I are, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own challenges.
How diverse are your social circles? Do they all really act the same? Why are you assuming they don't like you - are you expecting specific signals of acceptance that fit a very narrow norm but you're missing on the signals they're giving that fit their background more?
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:42 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
How do you know the person you are talking to is neurotypical?
They could also be neurodivergent in some way and now you're just in a feedback loop of awkward.
I find the "neurotypicals do this" framing highly unhelpful because a lot of """neurotypical""" behaviour is more accurately White/Male/American/Local/Fully Abled behaviour, and doesn't account for other cultural norms or even other disabilities that can affect communication & social skills. They may be """neurotypical""" in the sense that they're not autistic like you or I are, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own challenges.
How diverse are your social circles? Do they all really act the same? Why are you assuming they don't like you - are you expecting specific signals of acceptance that fit a very narrow norm but you're missing on the signals they're giving that fit their background more?
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:42 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
This post touched my heart. I want to first validate how powerful loneliness can be - U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy released an advisory earlier this year on the epidemic of loneliness and how to address it in our communities.
Do you have a therapist? Particularly a Neurodivergence-friendly therapist? If you don't already have an empathetic mental healthcare provider who can support you on your journey to make more meaningful social connections, then that might be someone to add to the support team. Since you mentioned struggling with suicidality, I should also mention that in the U.S. the national Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is 9-8-8.
I have a few recommendations for media:
1. Podcast: The Loudest Girl in the World
Lauren Ober is a journalist who received her autism diagnosis in her 40s and then made a podcast about her journey to get diagnosed and the impact it has had on her life. She specifically touches on the topics you mention, including socializing and friendship. After the main 9 episodes, there are a few additional episodes where Ober interviews various artists, musicians, athletes, and writers about their experiences.
2. Interview: Stand-up comedian Hannah Gadsby on Skavlan
I like how Hannah Gadsby articulates her own experience in interviews and on stage. In this interview, she explains why she no longer makes marginalizing self-deprecating jokes and the benefits of NT and ND folks learning each other's languages, rather than a one-way street of all the pressure being on ND individuals to conform to NT standards. Plus, Gadsby has an entire stand-up special about how she proposed to her wife.
3. TV Show: Love on the Spectrum
Reality TV is not everyone's bag (fair), but this Australian dating show has many charming, sincere participants. It depicts folks on the spectrum looking for love, as well as following already established couples. There is also an American version of the show.
I bring these examples up because it sounds like you have a belief that there might not be a community you will be accepted in unless you conform to some kind of Perfect Neurotypical Person Gold Standard. I want to challenge that belief: What if you didn't have to adhere to some kind of "neurotypical standard" of being a human in order to be accepted and loved?
Self-acceptance in the face of past social ostracization can be so hard, because sometimes folks who have experienced rejection learn to preemptively reject themselves as a sort of backwards self-defense mechanism. But what if, instead of attacking yourself for not performing perfection, you instead showed yourself some tenderness, and grace? What might that look like, for you? What might it feel like?
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 10:21 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Do you have a therapist? Particularly a Neurodivergence-friendly therapist? If you don't already have an empathetic mental healthcare provider who can support you on your journey to make more meaningful social connections, then that might be someone to add to the support team. Since you mentioned struggling with suicidality, I should also mention that in the U.S. the national Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is 9-8-8.
I have a few recommendations for media:
1. Podcast: The Loudest Girl in the World
Lauren Ober is a journalist who received her autism diagnosis in her 40s and then made a podcast about her journey to get diagnosed and the impact it has had on her life. She specifically touches on the topics you mention, including socializing and friendship. After the main 9 episodes, there are a few additional episodes where Ober interviews various artists, musicians, athletes, and writers about their experiences.
2. Interview: Stand-up comedian Hannah Gadsby on Skavlan
I like how Hannah Gadsby articulates her own experience in interviews and on stage. In this interview, she explains why she no longer makes marginalizing self-deprecating jokes and the benefits of NT and ND folks learning each other's languages, rather than a one-way street of all the pressure being on ND individuals to conform to NT standards. Plus, Gadsby has an entire stand-up special about how she proposed to her wife.
3. TV Show: Love on the Spectrum
Reality TV is not everyone's bag (fair), but this Australian dating show has many charming, sincere participants. It depicts folks on the spectrum looking for love, as well as following already established couples. There is also an American version of the show.
I bring these examples up because it sounds like you have a belief that there might not be a community you will be accepted in unless you conform to some kind of Perfect Neurotypical Person Gold Standard. I want to challenge that belief: What if you didn't have to adhere to some kind of "neurotypical standard" of being a human in order to be accepted and loved?
Self-acceptance in the face of past social ostracization can be so hard, because sometimes folks who have experienced rejection learn to preemptively reject themselves as a sort of backwards self-defense mechanism. But what if, instead of attacking yourself for not performing perfection, you instead showed yourself some tenderness, and grace? What might that look like, for you? What might it feel like?
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 10:21 PM on November 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
ADHD here, and I just wanted to add that my autistic roommate has said they seek us out because we seem to get along with autistic people more than other non-autistic people. We special interest dump as well and thus don’t find it weird, and jump around enough in conversation and have enough weird conversation tics such that autistic conversation tics don’t read as offputting. Additionally, we just don’t *notice* enough details to notice when any are out of place. This might be a viable option for you as well!
posted by corb at 4:51 AM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:51 AM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some great responses here about accepting yourself and challenging problematic beliefs.
To speak to your question of being liked, sociologically, this often comes from proximity and repeated interactions. You can bootstrap that, hence the advice to join a club or a community where you keep running into the same people. Just keep showing up - that’s important. That’s especially if you’ve had an awkward interaction and want to never go to the thing again. Just keep showing up.
Then to slightly diverge from the advice above, if you want to increase likingness, as a sociologist, I have some suggestions, although these will probably be and feel like hard work… Up to you whether this is of interest, but I’d suggest reading a couple of books on manners and maybe that classic Dale Carnegie book, How to win friends and influence people. Knowing social norms will help you to fit in, although as was so aptly pointed out by creatrixtiara, social norms vary by community, subculture, demographic cohort, ethnicity, country, so you’ll have to be a flexible on learning these. (Cleanliness, always, but things like doing a pop in vs. calling ahead definitely vary.) Then again, talking about different social norms and experiences can be fun, so there’s a fun conversation starter.
Importantly, you’ll want to learn how to do a brief self introduction and then segue into asking people about themselves and their interests, in a non creepy way, ***listen well *** and then remember those self disclosures in the future and ask people how those things are going, again in a non creepy way. (Creepy is usually “too much, too soon” but yes, some practice is required.) Think topics like hobbies, kids, pets. People generally like to talk about themselves, hence this should help to increase your likeability.
The listening thing is important because that’s what will make you stand out in a good way, given that a lot of people are just terrible listeners.
As an aside, I also just finished the latest murderbot book (Martha Wells) and I suspect reading those might be balm for your soul.
posted by ec2y at 11:35 AM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
To speak to your question of being liked, sociologically, this often comes from proximity and repeated interactions. You can bootstrap that, hence the advice to join a club or a community where you keep running into the same people. Just keep showing up - that’s important. That’s especially if you’ve had an awkward interaction and want to never go to the thing again. Just keep showing up.
Then to slightly diverge from the advice above, if you want to increase likingness, as a sociologist, I have some suggestions, although these will probably be and feel like hard work… Up to you whether this is of interest, but I’d suggest reading a couple of books on manners and maybe that classic Dale Carnegie book, How to win friends and influence people. Knowing social norms will help you to fit in, although as was so aptly pointed out by creatrixtiara, social norms vary by community, subculture, demographic cohort, ethnicity, country, so you’ll have to be a flexible on learning these. (Cleanliness, always, but things like doing a pop in vs. calling ahead definitely vary.) Then again, talking about different social norms and experiences can be fun, so there’s a fun conversation starter.
Importantly, you’ll want to learn how to do a brief self introduction and then segue into asking people about themselves and their interests, in a non creepy way, ***listen well *** and then remember those self disclosures in the future and ask people how those things are going, again in a non creepy way. (Creepy is usually “too much, too soon” but yes, some practice is required.) Think topics like hobbies, kids, pets. People generally like to talk about themselves, hence this should help to increase your likeability.
The listening thing is important because that’s what will make you stand out in a good way, given that a lot of people are just terrible listeners.
As an aside, I also just finished the latest murderbot book (Martha Wells) and I suspect reading those might be balm for your soul.
posted by ec2y at 11:35 AM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This may be out of left field, but may I suggest you find a local Improv class to take? Mine is full of autistic people, I imagine because it is a safe space to play and act weird and fail in front of people who aren’t going to judge you for it. (Maybe it’s just mine that feels like such a safe space? But I feel like it’s got to be more common than not.)
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:00 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:00 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Neurodiverse people typically find more acceptance and friendship with other neurodiverse people. It's often the case that people do not realise they are neurodiverse until later in life, but pre-diagnosis have gravitated to other neurodiverse folk. This is also much easier to achieve than passing for neurotypical and much more enjoyable.
As more adults have ASD and other neurodiverse diagnoses than previously, there are more groups specifically aimed at connecting people who are neurodiverse. You might want to start with such a group local to you.
posted by plonkee at 7:46 AM on November 26, 2023 [46 favorites]