How to cope with social defeat as an autistic adult?
April 24, 2022 12:21 PM Subscribe
Platitudinous friend-making strategies don’t seem to work for me. I’m 31, and besides my wife, I haven’t made a friend in more than a decade.
The orthodox arsenal of neurotypical friend-making strategies — “join a club,” “find people with similar interests,” “take a class,” “go to a park and strike up random small-talk conversation,” etc. — has never worked for me. People (primarily but not exclusively neurotypicals) seem hardwired to be uncomfortable around me because I am too different. This is the case regardless of where I am or who I am with.
For example, I like to read. Therapists have ad nauseum suggested that I join a book club to expand my social circle. Joining a book club, however, has never helped me make friends. Because my interests are very niche, whenever I have joined a book club, a reading Meetup, etc., I have been just as ostracized as anywhere else. The books I read and enjoy make people uncomfortable. This applies equally within book clubs as without.
Another example is traveling. I like to travel, but like book clubs, people who like traveling don’t like where I travel. Any potential social connection will end if I say anything about where I have been or where I plan to go.
This is all based on my own experience. Many of what I thought were promising social connections have abruptly ended after describing anything from what my favorite books are to where I plan to take my vacation.
At this point, I have managed to navigate the corporate office world and most other social settings by never revealing anything about myself to anyone. Neurotypicals love to talk, and I let them do that. However, I have found this leads to unbalanced relations. People unload on me all their life issues, but there is no reciprocity in the relationship. They tell me about their marital, family, financial, or other life issues, then leave.
On top of this, most people in their 30s like me have mortgages, spouses, jobs, children, etc., making them far less interested in expanding their social circle.
I want friends, but my efforts to make friendships have always come to naught. The older I get, the more likely it seems I will rely primarily on my wife for any social connection.
This makes me feel very depressed, sad, and defeated. What can I do to help mitigate these feelings?
The orthodox arsenal of neurotypical friend-making strategies — “join a club,” “find people with similar interests,” “take a class,” “go to a park and strike up random small-talk conversation,” etc. — has never worked for me. People (primarily but not exclusively neurotypicals) seem hardwired to be uncomfortable around me because I am too different. This is the case regardless of where I am or who I am with.
For example, I like to read. Therapists have ad nauseum suggested that I join a book club to expand my social circle. Joining a book club, however, has never helped me make friends. Because my interests are very niche, whenever I have joined a book club, a reading Meetup, etc., I have been just as ostracized as anywhere else. The books I read and enjoy make people uncomfortable. This applies equally within book clubs as without.
Another example is traveling. I like to travel, but like book clubs, people who like traveling don’t like where I travel. Any potential social connection will end if I say anything about where I have been or where I plan to go.
This is all based on my own experience. Many of what I thought were promising social connections have abruptly ended after describing anything from what my favorite books are to where I plan to take my vacation.
At this point, I have managed to navigate the corporate office world and most other social settings by never revealing anything about myself to anyone. Neurotypicals love to talk, and I let them do that. However, I have found this leads to unbalanced relations. People unload on me all their life issues, but there is no reciprocity in the relationship. They tell me about their marital, family, financial, or other life issues, then leave.
On top of this, most people in their 30s like me have mortgages, spouses, jobs, children, etc., making them far less interested in expanding their social circle.
I want friends, but my efforts to make friendships have always come to naught. The older I get, the more likely it seems I will rely primarily on my wife for any social connection.
This makes me feel very depressed, sad, and defeated. What can I do to help mitigate these feelings?
I think we need to know in what direction you're diverging. To continue with your examples, what kinds of books DO you like to read? Where DO you want to travel?
If they're just super super niche, maybe someone could suggest how to find people who are also in that niche, or groups/strategies that are adjacent to those niches.
If the niches are just not appropriate for groups somehow, maybe that will stick out to people and they can suggest an entirely different approach that makes sense for someone with those specific interests that's not _about_ those interests.
Alternatively, those specific interests might illuminate something about you that could be addressed proactively.
posted by amtho at 12:30 PM on April 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
If they're just super super niche, maybe someone could suggest how to find people who are also in that niche, or groups/strategies that are adjacent to those niches.
If the niches are just not appropriate for groups somehow, maybe that will stick out to people and they can suggest an entirely different approach that makes sense for someone with those specific interests that's not _about_ those interests.
Alternatively, those specific interests might illuminate something about you that could be addressed proactively.
posted by amtho at 12:30 PM on April 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Hi, fellow autistic adult here (43). I've never really had great luck making friends in person either, but online I find it's relatively easy to find forums where people share some of my niche interests (and I am talking *quite* niche here - think, restoring and using a very specific type of vintage woodworking tool).
It kind of seems like maybe there is something about the people you are trying to befriend that is at issue here? Like, for whatever reason you are encountering a lot of the type of people who overshare a lot but aren't super interested in listening?
In any case, I would recommend finding some online communities related to your interests and then starting by *asking others there for recommendations or ideas* related to said interest. People with niche interests love to give recommendations and advice (I say this as one of them). This is the sort of thing I have learned through trial/error and experimentation due to NT socialization methods such as those you describe not working for me either.
posted by aecorwin at 12:53 PM on April 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
It kind of seems like maybe there is something about the people you are trying to befriend that is at issue here? Like, for whatever reason you are encountering a lot of the type of people who overshare a lot but aren't super interested in listening?
In any case, I would recommend finding some online communities related to your interests and then starting by *asking others there for recommendations or ideas* related to said interest. People with niche interests love to give recommendations and advice (I say this as one of them). This is the sort of thing I have learned through trial/error and experimentation due to NT socialization methods such as those you describe not working for me either.
posted by aecorwin at 12:53 PM on April 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Seconding Reddit as a place to find others into very niche interests. For example, I like mechanical pencils, and own a number of different kinds of mechanical pencils, along with pencil cases, erasers, lead, etc. And sure enough, over on Reddit you can find r/mechanicalpencils (along with some pen related subreddits).
While I'm certainly interested in mechanical pencils, a number of the folks there are really, really, really into mechanical pencils. They blog about mechanical pencils, they go to see the factories where their favorite mechanical pencil is made, they go to other countries to buy mechanical pencils only available in that country. They are very into their niche interest, and love to talk about it and share with others into the same interest. So I would give Reddit a look to see if there are others into the same things.
posted by ralan at 1:20 PM on April 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
While I'm certainly interested in mechanical pencils, a number of the folks there are really, really, really into mechanical pencils. They blog about mechanical pencils, they go to see the factories where their favorite mechanical pencil is made, they go to other countries to buy mechanical pencils only available in that country. They are very into their niche interest, and love to talk about it and share with others into the same interest. So I would give Reddit a look to see if there are others into the same things.
posted by ralan at 1:20 PM on April 24, 2022 [18 favorites]
Is there a chance that it's not the substance of the interaction, but something about timing, that is leading these conversations not to go well? If I understand right, autistic people often have different conversational rhythms than NT people, and timing can mean the difference between "we are vibing" and "this is kind of awkward" and "wow, they are rude."
This may be obvious, but perhaps you would have an easier time with fellow non-neurotypicals? If my hunch is right and some of this is about timing, maybe it would feel like less work to hang out with people whose instincts are less different from yours. (Because what you describe with coworkers, never being given the chance to reciprocate fully, sounds like a lot of work!)
There is another sense in which rhythm might be in play: whereas I found that friendships made in a school setting developed awfully quickly, connections I have made in adulthood outside of formal education have unfolded on basically geologic time. I don't know if that experience generalizes.
posted by eirias at 3:14 PM on April 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
This may be obvious, but perhaps you would have an easier time with fellow non-neurotypicals? If my hunch is right and some of this is about timing, maybe it would feel like less work to hang out with people whose instincts are less different from yours. (Because what you describe with coworkers, never being given the chance to reciprocate fully, sounds like a lot of work!)
There is another sense in which rhythm might be in play: whereas I found that friendships made in a school setting developed awfully quickly, connections I have made in adulthood outside of formal education have unfolded on basically geologic time. I don't know if that experience generalizes.
posted by eirias at 3:14 PM on April 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
I have given up on making close personal friends. I have acquaintances I go to dinner with, I have colleagues who come into my office to chat because I'm a good listener but I have come to realise that I'm nor a good fit in IRL. I am glad I can ask and answer here, and make quirky observations on FB, but I got tired of people being tired of me and now that's just the way it is. (Autist).
posted by b33j at 3:25 PM on April 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by b33j at 3:25 PM on April 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
Start being interested in things other people are interested in.
Therapy to try and understand where your interactions go awry.
Why do you want friendships? What will you get out of them?
posted by flimflam at 3:37 PM on April 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Therapy to try and understand where your interactions go awry.
Why do you want friendships? What will you get out of them?
posted by flimflam at 3:37 PM on April 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Do you have any interests that have a volunteering aspect? I find it easier to connect with people when we are doing something purposeful. (I have met several autistic people in your age range through politics, for example, but those people are interested in politics and you might not be. That's just an example.)
I think to make a connection, you have to find something pretty specific in your interests that will attracted similar-minded people. Like not just a book club but a books-you-are-into club, not just a travel thing, but a travels-you-are-into thing. Reddit or FB may be an onramp. Sorry if there's not a great fit for this. It can be hard for neurotypical people to meet new friends so if you have that challenge plus the challenge of unusual interests, that is pretty challenging.
posted by *s at 4:47 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think to make a connection, you have to find something pretty specific in your interests that will attracted similar-minded people. Like not just a book club but a books-you-are-into club, not just a travel thing, but a travels-you-are-into thing. Reddit or FB may be an onramp. Sorry if there's not a great fit for this. It can be hard for neurotypical people to meet new friends so if you have that challenge plus the challenge of unusual interests, that is pretty challenging.
posted by *s at 4:47 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Are there any autistic groups where you live? And have you tried congregating with groups that are almost entirely made up of other nurodiverse kin? Because I think it’s less about having interests in common than having brain patterns in common - at least for me.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:49 PM on April 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 4:49 PM on April 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Sounds like the discomfort with neurotypical people is mutual. Very boring to be in a one-sided relationship like you describe, not to mention disheartening.
I wonder if it would be more fulfilling to find others on the autism spectrum.
posted by kapers at 4:53 PM on April 24, 2022
I wonder if it would be more fulfilling to find others on the autism spectrum.
posted by kapers at 4:53 PM on April 24, 2022
I am curious about books you like and where you want to travel, and I don't think the topics themselves would be putting people off (unless something really extreme like "I like books about incest" and "I can't wait to visit more famous mass graves"). I'm wondering if you are accidentally coming across as snobby or elitist by assuming no one shares your interests? People get their hackles up of they feel like they are being talked down to even if it's unintentional. It is hard to make friends as an adult and others above have some good suggestions. Do you share any hobbies or interests with your wife? Sometimes it's easier to make 'couple friends' if you meet another duo you seem to click with. Can also alleviate the awkwardness of getting to know a new friend in 1 on 1 settings.
posted by emd3737 at 6:13 PM on April 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 6:13 PM on April 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
Hi 8LeggedFriend, I’m a self-diagnosed autistic person in my late 20s. I can relate to a lot of what you’re describing. A lot of the standard surface-level advice for making friends has helped me make acquaintances, but I’ve really struggled with turning those acquaintances into deeper friendships. I have some weird quirks and mannerisms that sometimes put people off and cause communication disconnects. I’m getting better at connecting with people, but I’m not where I want to be yet, and it always feels like a lot of work.
One thought — I’ve found over time that, for me, hobbies centered around creation are the most effective for helping me form connections for other people. I think this is because the act of creation allows me to express myself in a nonverbal way, and if people like the thing I’ve created, it makes them realize that they might like me as well. Conversation can be hard for me sometimes, but doing a creative activity together is a way to build a rapport with someone without necessarily having to be very good at conversation.
Some creative activities that have helped me meet people and/or deepen friendships: drawing (and sharing my drawings online), personal programming projects, playing in a drum ensemble, playing bass, sewing, knitting, woodworking, and editing Wikipedia.
Activities more centered around consumption, like reading and traveling, are super great for having fun in my free time and making me feel better about my life! But sometimes they’re not very helpful for making friends, because in order to use them to connect with people, I have to explain my enjoyment to other people in words, which can be kind of difficult sometimes, and I can’t always communicate my excitement well.
I recommend thinking of the things you enjoy, and seeing whether you can add a creative element to them. Maybe try doing some drawings or photography during your travels, or write a blog about books you’re reading currently. Or pick up another creative hobby altogether. You DO NOT have to be good at it, but you do have to enjoy it.
Sorry if this sounds too simplistic or too much like the bad advice you’ve heard already! This is just something I’ve been reflecting on recently and I thought it might be helpful to you.
posted by mekily at 6:28 PM on April 24, 2022 [24 favorites]
One thought — I’ve found over time that, for me, hobbies centered around creation are the most effective for helping me form connections for other people. I think this is because the act of creation allows me to express myself in a nonverbal way, and if people like the thing I’ve created, it makes them realize that they might like me as well. Conversation can be hard for me sometimes, but doing a creative activity together is a way to build a rapport with someone without necessarily having to be very good at conversation.
Some creative activities that have helped me meet people and/or deepen friendships: drawing (and sharing my drawings online), personal programming projects, playing in a drum ensemble, playing bass, sewing, knitting, woodworking, and editing Wikipedia.
Activities more centered around consumption, like reading and traveling, are super great for having fun in my free time and making me feel better about my life! But sometimes they’re not very helpful for making friends, because in order to use them to connect with people, I have to explain my enjoyment to other people in words, which can be kind of difficult sometimes, and I can’t always communicate my excitement well.
I recommend thinking of the things you enjoy, and seeing whether you can add a creative element to them. Maybe try doing some drawings or photography during your travels, or write a blog about books you’re reading currently. Or pick up another creative hobby altogether. You DO NOT have to be good at it, but you do have to enjoy it.
Sorry if this sounds too simplistic or too much like the bad advice you’ve heard already! This is just something I’ve been reflecting on recently and I thought it might be helpful to you.
posted by mekily at 6:28 PM on April 24, 2022 [24 favorites]
I’m not quite neurotypical (have ADHD, lots of interesting mental-health stuff), but I don’t have autism, so the following only speaks to what my experience might offer by way of solidarity.
As I got into my 30s (now in early 40s), I felt profoundly isolated. Many people were pairing up, marrying, making babies, taking big strides in their careers. I wasn’t doing these things - in particular, it felt hard to connect with my existing friends who were having kids. I love kids! I love my friends! But, even though I was sad that new-parent-friends never reached out and rarely responded to my messages, I had a narrative in my head that I didn’t want to impose on them when they were trying to get through early parenthood. So friendships faded.
There’s part of me that thinks it’s important to make peace with this - find other cool childless folks, hang out in groups with more age diversity (volunteering is great for this), keep sending messages to people I love with kids because I love them, and those investments matter. Another part thinks I could have done more to stay connected with kid-having friends, and that I was so scared of imposing that I let some friendships go slack that didn’t need to.
I also had a few friends lose parents, get cancer, divorce, burn out, try to change careers, struggle with depression. In the end, I think lots of people - neurotypical folks as well - struggle with friendship in their early thirties, because there’s just a lot that is ripe for happening in people’s lives at that age. So this first part of my comment is to say, I see you.
A perennial piece of advice that I appreciate is to try something NEW. If you haven’t won friends and influenced people with your current faves, what about exploring a new hobby? I don’t mean pretending to like pottery or rock-climbing or improv whatever just because it might be a place to make friends, but looking for something that genuinely interests you, and taking advantage of the fact that learning to do things can be a a friendly and inspiring people-meeting exercise. I also don’t mean giving up on the books or travel destinations you already enjoy. Many +++++ to comments above about finding people on the internet who also enjoy those things, not least for the confidence that other people also like them.
A new piece of advice I got from my couples counselor a couple of weeks ago was that it’s ok to express frustration to your therapist, that therapy can be a place to work through anger *with a therapist* in a safe and constructive way. If you, like me, haven’t felt it was ok to push back on getting advice that feels trite and unhelpful, try asking if you can share some feelings of frustration and see how your therapist responds. If they listen and help, great! If they are hostile, or continue to be unhelpful, maybe they’re not a good match and someone else could be helping you better.
Wishing you luck in finding connection.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 8:26 PM on April 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
As I got into my 30s (now in early 40s), I felt profoundly isolated. Many people were pairing up, marrying, making babies, taking big strides in their careers. I wasn’t doing these things - in particular, it felt hard to connect with my existing friends who were having kids. I love kids! I love my friends! But, even though I was sad that new-parent-friends never reached out and rarely responded to my messages, I had a narrative in my head that I didn’t want to impose on them when they were trying to get through early parenthood. So friendships faded.
There’s part of me that thinks it’s important to make peace with this - find other cool childless folks, hang out in groups with more age diversity (volunteering is great for this), keep sending messages to people I love with kids because I love them, and those investments matter. Another part thinks I could have done more to stay connected with kid-having friends, and that I was so scared of imposing that I let some friendships go slack that didn’t need to.
I also had a few friends lose parents, get cancer, divorce, burn out, try to change careers, struggle with depression. In the end, I think lots of people - neurotypical folks as well - struggle with friendship in their early thirties, because there’s just a lot that is ripe for happening in people’s lives at that age. So this first part of my comment is to say, I see you.
A perennial piece of advice that I appreciate is to try something NEW. If you haven’t won friends and influenced people with your current faves, what about exploring a new hobby? I don’t mean pretending to like pottery or rock-climbing or improv whatever just because it might be a place to make friends, but looking for something that genuinely interests you, and taking advantage of the fact that learning to do things can be a a friendly and inspiring people-meeting exercise. I also don’t mean giving up on the books or travel destinations you already enjoy. Many +++++ to comments above about finding people on the internet who also enjoy those things, not least for the confidence that other people also like them.
A new piece of advice I got from my couples counselor a couple of weeks ago was that it’s ok to express frustration to your therapist, that therapy can be a place to work through anger *with a therapist* in a safe and constructive way. If you, like me, haven’t felt it was ok to push back on getting advice that feels trite and unhelpful, try asking if you can share some feelings of frustration and see how your therapist responds. If they listen and help, great! If they are hostile, or continue to be unhelpful, maybe they’re not a good match and someone else could be helping you better.
Wishing you luck in finding connection.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 8:26 PM on April 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
One factor to consider is how much social ties have been eroded during these pandemic years. I have found that basically everyone I know has taken a step or two back from their normal willingness to communicate or accept social invitations. There are no easy solutions and I am sure this doesn't explain your whole situation, but it could be part of what is going on.
One idea to consider is to forget about your own interests in this context. You can always learn about them on your own and discuss them in specialist forums, but the point of general friendships is almost never deep discussion and analysis of any topic - it's just having enough of a connection to each other to take an interest and feel a sense of social connection.
posted by sindark at 9:12 PM on April 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
One idea to consider is to forget about your own interests in this context. You can always learn about them on your own and discuss them in specialist forums, but the point of general friendships is almost never deep discussion and analysis of any topic - it's just having enough of a connection to each other to take an interest and feel a sense of social connection.
posted by sindark at 9:12 PM on April 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
My most effective in person strategy is to attach myself to outgoing friendly people. A few times I have explained my social dilemma to an extroverted acquaintance and asked for help meeting people at a party or out in public. They make connections and include me in conversations so that the people we meet get to know me a bit and I get more comfortable with them. Once the ice is broken I have a better chance of participating in conversation. I have also studied my outgoing friends and tried to learn the way they approach people and the kind of expressions and gestures that endear them to others. It's sort of like taking acting lessons and it has taken me about 30 years of practice to be more socially acceptable.
I have had feedback that I seem aloof and unapproachable so I have really learned to smile at people, and make some eye contact. These days I try to always communicate that I am a happy, fun, and kind person. When I express a happy affect it makes it easier to have pleasant small interactions. I am also more likely to make small talk with other odd people.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:39 PM on April 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have had feedback that I seem aloof and unapproachable so I have really learned to smile at people, and make some eye contact. These days I try to always communicate that I am a happy, fun, and kind person. When I express a happy affect it makes it easier to have pleasant small interactions. I am also more likely to make small talk with other odd people.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 11:39 PM on April 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have a niche activity, too! I host an improv group as a public event once a month. Since anyone can come, the stakes are very low. Improv is themed and timed. Oversharing is far less possible and disclosure during the activity is minimal.
posted by parmanparman at 12:50 AM on April 25, 2022
posted by parmanparman at 12:50 AM on April 25, 2022
I'm not neurotypical either (though no ASD diagnosis), and I suspect the books or locations are not the primary deterrents, unless they are such that they would feel repulsive to most people as exemplified in emd3737's comment above.
Making friends is a complex endeavour under the surface, there's the timing as mentioned in eirias's comment, and there are facial expressions, other body language, tone, energy levels to interpret and convey. Any of these can misfire and give the wrong impression, such as coming across disinterested in the other person, arrogant, boring, threatening, etc.
I watched a short clip of Hannah Gadsby (of Nanette Netflix special fame, and other comedy programs) being interviewed by Stephen Colbert. She has been open about her autism diagnosis. On the show, she said something and Colbert seemed to be a bit offended. She then quickly said that she had issues with tone and that the tone came out cold when she meant to convey warmth.
Note that they had had a good time before, were clearly on friendly terms, she had been to the show before, and still the tone gave an unwanted impression. She was able to be very quick in her self-awareness and clear explanation and all was well. Having this happen with people one hasn't had any prior relation to and who may not know what could be difficult for some people with autism, may result in even less benefit of the doubt and more need for awareness and explanations.
In conclusion, it's indeed not as easy as the trite recommendations make it sound if one is not fluent in these aspects of communication and reciprocity. And that though nearly everyone's capacity for that has decreased during pandemic times, it's often even more difficult and effortful for neurodiverse people.
(And now I'm wondering if I'm conveying the right sentiment with my comment and whether I'm using the right terms for neurodiversity or is it neurodivergence or neuroatypical and is it people with autism or autistic people or people on the autism spectrum and which expression conveys which view, and anyway I hope it arrives well.)
posted by meijusa at 1:30 AM on April 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
Making friends is a complex endeavour under the surface, there's the timing as mentioned in eirias's comment, and there are facial expressions, other body language, tone, energy levels to interpret and convey. Any of these can misfire and give the wrong impression, such as coming across disinterested in the other person, arrogant, boring, threatening, etc.
I watched a short clip of Hannah Gadsby (of Nanette Netflix special fame, and other comedy programs) being interviewed by Stephen Colbert. She has been open about her autism diagnosis. On the show, she said something and Colbert seemed to be a bit offended. She then quickly said that she had issues with tone and that the tone came out cold when she meant to convey warmth.
Note that they had had a good time before, were clearly on friendly terms, she had been to the show before, and still the tone gave an unwanted impression. She was able to be very quick in her self-awareness and clear explanation and all was well. Having this happen with people one hasn't had any prior relation to and who may not know what could be difficult for some people with autism, may result in even less benefit of the doubt and more need for awareness and explanations.
In conclusion, it's indeed not as easy as the trite recommendations make it sound if one is not fluent in these aspects of communication and reciprocity. And that though nearly everyone's capacity for that has decreased during pandemic times, it's often even more difficult and effortful for neurodiverse people.
(And now I'm wondering if I'm conveying the right sentiment with my comment and whether I'm using the right terms for neurodiversity or is it neurodivergence or neuroatypical and is it people with autism or autistic people or people on the autism spectrum and which expression conveys which view, and anyway I hope it arrives well.)
posted by meijusa at 1:30 AM on April 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
The older I get, the more likely it seems I will rely primarily on my wife for any social connection.
Based on this excerpt from your question, I assume that your wife forms friendships more easily (though perhaps you meant that your wife is your primary social interaction and, if so, apologies for my misinterpretation). So many partnerships share this dynamic! If you haven't already, I urge you to share your wish for more meaningful engagement with other people with your wife and enlist her in the quest. She may have helpful observations regarding your presentation and interaction style, sure, but hopefully she will get on board with Project Friendships and find ways to increase interactions with her/your extended circle and help it grow. She too might like to find a couple with potential to become an activity foursome. All outreach efforts will likely entail goosing reciprocity.
Regarding reciprocity, when we moved to this community we knew no one and so we made a concentrated effort. In the before times we threw a lot of parties, from small dinner gatherings to enormous outdoor bashes. The first huge party was for everyone in the neighborhood because they a) had all been inconvenienced by our construction; b) during the build we kept finding people checking out our weirdo house and thought folks might like to see it complete, and; c) we wanted to meet folks and earn reciprocal invitations.
Some meals were elaborate but most were simple and sometimes, because it's the custom hereabouts, these get-togethers occurred at restaurants. Throughout it meant that I had to overcome my resistance to talking to strangers, who I always fear view my efforts as an unwelcome imposition. But one of my best friends here I met at a garage sale because we were both interested in the same item. Thank Dog she invited me for coffee, not only because our friendship bloomed, but because it modeled for me how to take the plunge.
posted by carmicha at 8:55 AM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Based on this excerpt from your question, I assume that your wife forms friendships more easily (though perhaps you meant that your wife is your primary social interaction and, if so, apologies for my misinterpretation). So many partnerships share this dynamic! If you haven't already, I urge you to share your wish for more meaningful engagement with other people with your wife and enlist her in the quest. She may have helpful observations regarding your presentation and interaction style, sure, but hopefully she will get on board with Project Friendships and find ways to increase interactions with her/your extended circle and help it grow. She too might like to find a couple with potential to become an activity foursome. All outreach efforts will likely entail goosing reciprocity.
Regarding reciprocity, when we moved to this community we knew no one and so we made a concentrated effort. In the before times we threw a lot of parties, from small dinner gatherings to enormous outdoor bashes. The first huge party was for everyone in the neighborhood because they a) had all been inconvenienced by our construction; b) during the build we kept finding people checking out our weirdo house and thought folks might like to see it complete, and; c) we wanted to meet folks and earn reciprocal invitations.
Some meals were elaborate but most were simple and sometimes, because it's the custom hereabouts, these get-togethers occurred at restaurants. Throughout it meant that I had to overcome my resistance to talking to strangers, who I always fear view my efforts as an unwelcome imposition. But one of my best friends here I met at a garage sale because we were both interested in the same item. Thank Dog she invited me for coffee, not only because our friendship bloomed, but because it modeled for me how to take the plunge.
posted by carmicha at 8:55 AM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm able to mitigate those feelings somewhat by walking a weird line between accepting that this is just how it is and recognizing that it's not necessarily permanent. Like, I'll decide for a while that this is how my life is, and do things that make me as happy as possible within that framework, which may not be compatible with the more social life I'd prefer- for example arranging my house in ways that would be annoying to guests, having an unreasonable number of pets, suspending social media, etc. But I'm also open to changing that whenever I want to and putting in the effort to develop new relationships, which for whatever reason makes me feel less crappy than planning out the whole rest of my life without other people in it. Focusing on how my life is pretty good on any given day is easier than imagining every day being just like that, forever.
In the times when I've decided to try to change the situation, by far the most effective way for me to do it is to find a situation which will put me in contact with the same people at least once per week and slowly build relationships that way. It's a lot of upfront effort which, for me, is the opposite of rewarding unless something develops from it, and that only happens maybe 25% of the time. (And the relationships that develop aren't necessarily permanently fulfilling; the reason I've had to do this many times is because people change, move, get married and stop seeing their friends, etc.) So while it's frustrating when it doesn't work, at least that makes my mostly solo life feel like a pleasant relief.
posted by metasarah at 10:38 AM on April 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
In the times when I've decided to try to change the situation, by far the most effective way for me to do it is to find a situation which will put me in contact with the same people at least once per week and slowly build relationships that way. It's a lot of upfront effort which, for me, is the opposite of rewarding unless something develops from it, and that only happens maybe 25% of the time. (And the relationships that develop aren't necessarily permanently fulfilling; the reason I've had to do this many times is because people change, move, get married and stop seeing their friends, etc.) So while it's frustrating when it doesn't work, at least that makes my mostly solo life feel like a pleasant relief.
posted by metasarah at 10:38 AM on April 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
> Many of what I thought were promising social connections have abruptly ended after describing anything from what my favorite books are to where I plan to take my vacation.
Is the abrupt end due to the books and places you described or is it because of how you described them/how the interaction happened?
I'm guessing the latter.
I'm underlining this point because you repeatedly imply that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, but that is extremely unlikely to be true. If you continue to tell yourself that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, then making friends among regular folks outside of reddit will keep on being an activity that requires you to give up your interests. You're going to feel insulted by the idea and extremely unmotivated to make connections with people who require such a sacrifice from you. And even if you do change your interests and become interested in what's popular among regular folks outside of reddit, it won't help, because what you're interested in was never causing the problem to begin with. (Most likely.) Your real issue will likely remain no matter how popular/common your hobbies are.
If you can stop believing the (likely) myth that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, then you might be able to turn your efforts towards the REAL issue, whatever that may be, which is keeping you from making friends. It won't be easy or quick to change your mannerisms or develop good conversation skills or whatever the real solution to your problem may be. But at least you'll be working on the right problem, and you won't be saddled with needless resentment towards the people you're trying to connect with, and you won't have to sacrifice things you love in order to make friends.
posted by MiraK at 1:09 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Is the abrupt end due to the books and places you described or is it because of how you described them/how the interaction happened?
I'm guessing the latter.
I'm underlining this point because you repeatedly imply that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, but that is extremely unlikely to be true. If you continue to tell yourself that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, then making friends among regular folks outside of reddit will keep on being an activity that requires you to give up your interests. You're going to feel insulted by the idea and extremely unmotivated to make connections with people who require such a sacrifice from you. And even if you do change your interests and become interested in what's popular among regular folks outside of reddit, it won't help, because what you're interested in was never causing the problem to begin with. (Most likely.) Your real issue will likely remain no matter how popular/common your hobbies are.
If you can stop believing the (likely) myth that your interests are too niche to be socially acceptable among regular folks outside of reddit, then you might be able to turn your efforts towards the REAL issue, whatever that may be, which is keeping you from making friends. It won't be easy or quick to change your mannerisms or develop good conversation skills or whatever the real solution to your problem may be. But at least you'll be working on the right problem, and you won't be saddled with needless resentment towards the people you're trying to connect with, and you won't have to sacrifice things you love in order to make friends.
posted by MiraK at 1:09 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Your reactions to people sound a lot like how I feel in similar situations. But I'm constantly trying to get outside of that mode, and it's sometimes painful but there are benefits.
A lot of people are saying "find people in your niche" and maybe that's a starting point. But I'd push yourself a bit to participate in conversations that seem boring or outside your comfort zone. It's kind of liking going to the gym. You want to exercise the muscles (conversation/empathy) so they get a little stronger. It doesn't matter that you'll never be great at it - just try to be a little better.
All the situations you described (people reacting poorly to your chosen topic, people cornering you to talk in one direction, etc) are no doubt happening some of the time. But it's also very easy to be wrong about the reasons for an awkward exchange. Give people the benefit of the doubt as much as you can.
Toolbox: (things that help or are appropriate sometimes, not every time)
* ask questions
* think about what other people might be thinking instead of what you are thinking
* cultivate a bit of knowledge in crossover topics outside your niches, e.g. home improvement, real estate, raising kids, sports, foreign countries.
* don't avoid small talk. It has its purpose.
* sit/stand in the middle of groups instead of the edges
* join and leave conversations, aka mingling
* excuse yourself, go for a walk to reduce your social fatigue, come back
* offer topics without launching into them, and just shrug it off when there's no interest
* games, jokes, and structured interactions
* avoid social situations where you're trapped for an uncomfortable amount of time with the same people (a 3-hour restaurant dinner with acquaintances is super-challenging for me)
The best thing you can do for yourself is not always the most comfortable.
posted by ErikH2000 at 1:12 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
A lot of people are saying "find people in your niche" and maybe that's a starting point. But I'd push yourself a bit to participate in conversations that seem boring or outside your comfort zone. It's kind of liking going to the gym. You want to exercise the muscles (conversation/empathy) so they get a little stronger. It doesn't matter that you'll never be great at it - just try to be a little better.
All the situations you described (people reacting poorly to your chosen topic, people cornering you to talk in one direction, etc) are no doubt happening some of the time. But it's also very easy to be wrong about the reasons for an awkward exchange. Give people the benefit of the doubt as much as you can.
Toolbox: (things that help or are appropriate sometimes, not every time)
* ask questions
* think about what other people might be thinking instead of what you are thinking
* cultivate a bit of knowledge in crossover topics outside your niches, e.g. home improvement, real estate, raising kids, sports, foreign countries.
* don't avoid small talk. It has its purpose.
* sit/stand in the middle of groups instead of the edges
* join and leave conversations, aka mingling
* excuse yourself, go for a walk to reduce your social fatigue, come back
* offer topics without launching into them, and just shrug it off when there's no interest
* games, jokes, and structured interactions
* avoid social situations where you're trapped for an uncomfortable amount of time with the same people (a 3-hour restaurant dinner with acquaintances is super-challenging for me)
The best thing you can do for yourself is not always the most comfortable.
posted by ErikH2000 at 1:12 PM on April 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
Since your question is not about making friends, but about coping with not making friends... I find it helpful when I engage in activities that create a background sense of interaction with other people, even if it's partly illusory.
The people around me are generally not interested in my niche interests, but it does feel nice to have some kind of outlet for sharing out 'discoveries' and expertise. I find editing Wikipedia or other crowd-sourced databases of information (fixing mistakes, adding citations, further details, suggesting books for the public library, etc.) helpful to make me feel that my time spent exploring these interests isn't totally wasted. It's relaxing and engaging, and there's a background sense of collaboration, community and usefulness, even if I don't directly interact with anyone.
I also find that reading 'challenging' fiction (or watching similar types of films) leaves a beneficial residue of social interaction as well, by intimately exploring the lives, thoughts and struggles of fictional people. Translated stories from different languages, peoples and eras are especially more engrossing, since they can motivate me to conduct further background research into other cultures and histories. And as a secondary benefit, I find books/movies helpful with understanding and relating to the people around me a bit more, though that's still a struggle.
Exercising outdoors is nice too (walking, running or cycling), since there are other people doing similar things around you and it feels like a vaguely shared activity with a sea of strangers, even if it's done on my own. Every so often there are moments of a simple, shared, usually amusing observation with a stranger on something going on around us. And there's a secondary benefit of helping with my general mental health.
posted by RGD at 5:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The people around me are generally not interested in my niche interests, but it does feel nice to have some kind of outlet for sharing out 'discoveries' and expertise. I find editing Wikipedia or other crowd-sourced databases of information (fixing mistakes, adding citations, further details, suggesting books for the public library, etc.) helpful to make me feel that my time spent exploring these interests isn't totally wasted. It's relaxing and engaging, and there's a background sense of collaboration, community and usefulness, even if I don't directly interact with anyone.
I also find that reading 'challenging' fiction (or watching similar types of films) leaves a beneficial residue of social interaction as well, by intimately exploring the lives, thoughts and struggles of fictional people. Translated stories from different languages, peoples and eras are especially more engrossing, since they can motivate me to conduct further background research into other cultures and histories. And as a secondary benefit, I find books/movies helpful with understanding and relating to the people around me a bit more, though that's still a struggle.
Exercising outdoors is nice too (walking, running or cycling), since there are other people doing similar things around you and it feels like a vaguely shared activity with a sea of strangers, even if it's done on my own. Every so often there are moments of a simple, shared, usually amusing observation with a stranger on something going on around us. And there's a secondary benefit of helping with my general mental health.
posted by RGD at 5:21 PM on April 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
By the way, you're married so I wouldn't call that any kind of "social defeat". Are there any lessons you can learn from how that happened?
posted by tillsbury at 11:43 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tillsbury at 11:43 PM on April 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I want friends, but my efforts to make friendships have always come to naught. The older I get, the more likely it seems I will rely primarily on my wife for any social connection.
This makes me feel very depressed, sad, and defeated. What can I do to help mitigate these feelings?
I have tried and failed to make any close friends over many years as a single old person (ADHD, depression, anxiety) living in a nation (Sweden) that prizes privacy and individualism. (I have close friends; alas, they live in the US.) This is what I do to mitigate my feelings of loneliness:
1. Take it one day at a time. I have no idea what will happen in the future so it is presumptuous (and potentially self-fulfilling) to decide I will never have any Swedish friends.
2. Listen to the Too Beautiful to Live podcast of two 40-something white guys having conversations about mostly unimportant stuff because it is like sitting in somebody's kitchen and listening to folks talk as they cook. That is probably a terrible analogy (and I am sure there are better podcast choices) but I listen because it makes me feel like these two guys are my friends even if they are not. One guy recently got a Costco card for the first time. Again, not important conversations but conversations that make me feel welcome, if that makes sense.
3. Feel my feels. It is sad that I don't have Swedish friends. (To be fair, I do have friends here but A. They are not Swedish and B. They don't live in the town I live in.) So when I feel sad, I feel sad. But also I try not to not to wallow if sadness turns to self-pity. I am not a victim; who knows what is around the next corner?
4. Acknowledge what is good about my life exactly as it is. I have the right to feel shitty about my life for whatever reason. I also benefit from reminding myself about the delights I also enjoy from time to time in this particular body with this particular brain in this particular place.
It sucks that you don't have friends. Some folks don't. That does not mean you are doing it wrong. Like, maybe you are but I doubt it. It is challenging even for many so-called neurotypical folks to make friends. A study from the University of Kansas found that two people need to spend 90 hours together to become friends, or 200 hours to qualify as close friends.
How do adults who start as strangers end up spending that much time together? Hell if I know.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:42 AM on April 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
This makes me feel very depressed, sad, and defeated. What can I do to help mitigate these feelings?
I have tried and failed to make any close friends over many years as a single old person (ADHD, depression, anxiety) living in a nation (Sweden) that prizes privacy and individualism. (I have close friends; alas, they live in the US.) This is what I do to mitigate my feelings of loneliness:
1. Take it one day at a time. I have no idea what will happen in the future so it is presumptuous (and potentially self-fulfilling) to decide I will never have any Swedish friends.
2. Listen to the Too Beautiful to Live podcast of two 40-something white guys having conversations about mostly unimportant stuff because it is like sitting in somebody's kitchen and listening to folks talk as they cook. That is probably a terrible analogy (and I am sure there are better podcast choices) but I listen because it makes me feel like these two guys are my friends even if they are not. One guy recently got a Costco card for the first time. Again, not important conversations but conversations that make me feel welcome, if that makes sense.
3. Feel my feels. It is sad that I don't have Swedish friends. (To be fair, I do have friends here but A. They are not Swedish and B. They don't live in the town I live in.) So when I feel sad, I feel sad. But also I try not to not to wallow if sadness turns to self-pity. I am not a victim; who knows what is around the next corner?
4. Acknowledge what is good about my life exactly as it is. I have the right to feel shitty about my life for whatever reason. I also benefit from reminding myself about the delights I also enjoy from time to time in this particular body with this particular brain in this particular place.
It sucks that you don't have friends. Some folks don't. That does not mean you are doing it wrong. Like, maybe you are but I doubt it. It is challenging even for many so-called neurotypical folks to make friends. A study from the University of Kansas found that two people need to spend 90 hours together to become friends, or 200 hours to qualify as close friends.
How do adults who start as strangers end up spending that much time together? Hell if I know.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:42 AM on April 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Your question really hit me for two reasons:
1) A couple of years ago, I read one of your questions and to this day your username stuck with me because I remember thinking how cool your interests sounded and 2) from reading your question it sounds like you only get that friend feeling with people who share those interests (?) and I will just say I get it (as in I only tend to form close friendships with people I can go a bit in depth with stuff).
So some ideas that I think might work for you in terms of friendship making:
Joining a book club, however, has never helped me make friends. Other people have bought or checked out the same books from the library you have, right? I would pick a few of your niche interests and start your own book club with a meetup or something similar (or if you are not ready for that step, make a few subreddits devoted to your interests). This would likely filter in the people who have your same interests.
I suspect you might have a lot of fun if you made your own photography meetup. Maybe see if you can find other members to teach others how to take wildlife photos, astronomy photos, and you can volunteer to do the one that pertains to you. I really think you would connect to people this way with enthusiastic newcomers and advanced photographers who can exchange ideas with you about this topic.
Find a local autism support group or an international one that meets over zoom. I do not have your diagnosis, but I know someone who does, and they have made great friends this way. Some of the groups are international with people participating from all over the world.
nth(ing) the idea another user suggests. Having a partner can really facilitate making friendships. Tell your partner - maybe they can invite people who they think might make a good friend over for dinner? Or if you start your group to read books or take photos together, invite someone over for dinner at your place, etc. Alternatively, if your partner wants to meet new people, too, find a group you both want to join/hobby you want to learn and do it together. You might find either couples or people you want to befriend.
When I read your question, I realize you might just want to be at peace with not making as many friends, so some ideas:
As someone else suggests above, check out Reddit. It is likely that subreddits devoted to your interests already exist. So although you might not have someone next to you excited about book X, you can get excited over it (and find other people who are similar) online.
Volunteer and/or teach I am not suggesting this for making friends and I would only do this if you feel deeply about something, but... Let's say you believe in conservation as a passionate cause - it can give you a vehicle to do something about the change you want to see in the world and it will give you proximity to other people. I also believe that if you teach people about the passionate thing you like, you connect with people in a different way.
Another way might just be to have one-off conversations with people from time to time. It is not quite a friendship, but it gives you new ideas and lets you temporarily connect with people. In all seriousness, if you decide to do something like this, I think I would enjoy talking with you for a couple of hours because back to how I introduced this, I *want* to know more about your interests. I can already think of a lot of questions I would ask and for me, learning about what other people know (well, the topics you listed ) or what they teach me - is the high for me. Will it be a friend next door? No, but it is a tiny connection with another person/people in the world (and if you are interested in things like neuroscience or physiology or science fiction stories... more things to talk about - I often have a hard time finding people to talk about my interests, too, as most people do I think).
posted by Wolfster at 1:39 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
1) A couple of years ago, I read one of your questions and to this day your username stuck with me because I remember thinking how cool your interests sounded and 2) from reading your question it sounds like you only get that friend feeling with people who share those interests (?) and I will just say I get it (as in I only tend to form close friendships with people I can go a bit in depth with stuff).
So some ideas that I think might work for you in terms of friendship making:
When I read your question, I realize you might just want to be at peace with not making as many friends, so some ideas:
Another way might just be to have one-off conversations with people from time to time. It is not quite a friendship, but it gives you new ideas and lets you temporarily connect with people. In all seriousness, if you decide to do something like this, I think I would enjoy talking with you for a couple of hours because back to how I introduced this, I *want* to know more about your interests. I can already think of a lot of questions I would ask and for me, learning about what other people know (well, the topics you listed ) or what they teach me - is the high for me. Will it be a friend next door? No, but it is a tiny connection with another person/people in the world (and if you are interested in things like neuroscience or physiology or science fiction stories... more things to talk about - I often have a hard time finding people to talk about my interests, too, as most people do I think).
posted by Wolfster at 1:39 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
OP, I also believe I am on the autism spectrum, and much of what you said resonated. It's so comforting when you find others who feel the same way that you do, especially in social situations. Your comment, " They tell me about their marital, family, financial, or other life issues, then leave." cracked me up because that is also my experience.
Seconding the folks who are suggesting joining/searching for online forums, and finding ways to be creative! This has been really helpful in my experience.
posted by Jangatroo at 12:28 PM on May 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seconding the folks who are suggesting joining/searching for online forums, and finding ways to be creative! This has been really helpful in my experience.
posted by Jangatroo at 12:28 PM on May 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
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Apologies if this suggestion is redundant with others you've received, but there's myriad FaceBook, Reddit, Substack, etc. groups devoted to extremely specific interests. Even the comments sections on, say, Woodworker YouTube or Snorkel Twitter, offer community and the opportunity for extra-platform and IRL interactions.
posted by carmicha at 12:29 PM on April 24, 2022 [17 favorites]