Please don’t pet my dog
November 11, 2023 4:12 AM Subscribe
My fearful and anxious rescue is terrified of kids, but they are enamoured with her. How can I tell small children to back off in a way they’ll understand?
We try to walk during off-peak hours, but sometimes that doesn’t really help, especially on weekends.
Exhibit A: 4 or 5 year old comes running up to us, rounding a corner. Parent slowly strolls behind us without trying to catch up. Kid is barreling at us full speed screaming about “petting the dog” and I am trying to walk faster, but kid catches up. I say “NO!” and “DON’T COME ANY CLOSER” and put my hand up in a stop signal as my dog cowers behind me, tail tucked. Parent catches up as the child starts crying. I’m awkwardly walking away while parent gives us very dirty looks.
Exhibit B: A group of 10 year old boys on bicycles see us out walking (around 8pm), they’re polite but obviously noisy. One of them rides up to us and keeps trying to talk to me about my dog (“where did you get her? How old is she?” etc. I keep trying to finish the conversation to walk away but the boy won’t let us go. He keeps trying to catch up to us as we’re walking away, so I say “sorry, she’s uncomfortable so I need to go”.
Both these things happened this week. I think I am better with older kids and adults, but with younger children it’s so damn awkward - I don’t want to be disciplining some stranger’s kid on the street.
It’s just so frustrating when we are putting in the work to train my dog and people don’t bother teaching their kids not to approach random dogs. She’s not aggressive and would never bite but I never want to put her in a situation that doesn’t need to happen. She’s already traumatised! Leave us alone!
Things we’ve tried: leash tags and vests that say “do not pet” and “in training”. Obviously these don’t work with small children. We also try to walk in off-peak hours, but that’s sometimes not possible due to my schedule. I don’t really like children, but I’d also really prefer not to be the neighbourhood spinster who yells at kids.
We try to walk during off-peak hours, but sometimes that doesn’t really help, especially on weekends.
Exhibit A: 4 or 5 year old comes running up to us, rounding a corner. Parent slowly strolls behind us without trying to catch up. Kid is barreling at us full speed screaming about “petting the dog” and I am trying to walk faster, but kid catches up. I say “NO!” and “DON’T COME ANY CLOSER” and put my hand up in a stop signal as my dog cowers behind me, tail tucked. Parent catches up as the child starts crying. I’m awkwardly walking away while parent gives us very dirty looks.
Exhibit B: A group of 10 year old boys on bicycles see us out walking (around 8pm), they’re polite but obviously noisy. One of them rides up to us and keeps trying to talk to me about my dog (“where did you get her? How old is she?” etc. I keep trying to finish the conversation to walk away but the boy won’t let us go. He keeps trying to catch up to us as we’re walking away, so I say “sorry, she’s uncomfortable so I need to go”.
Both these things happened this week. I think I am better with older kids and adults, but with younger children it’s so damn awkward - I don’t want to be disciplining some stranger’s kid on the street.
It’s just so frustrating when we are putting in the work to train my dog and people don’t bother teaching their kids not to approach random dogs. She’s not aggressive and would never bite but I never want to put her in a situation that doesn’t need to happen. She’s already traumatised! Leave us alone!
Things we’ve tried: leash tags and vests that say “do not pet” and “in training”. Obviously these don’t work with small children. We also try to walk in off-peak hours, but that’s sometimes not possible due to my schedule. I don’t really like children, but I’d also really prefer not to be the neighbourhood spinster who yells at kids.
I have a fearful dog and discovered that when I say "He isn't friendly" people only hear the word "friendly". So I've been saying "He bites!" for the last 10 years and have not had a problem.
I initially hated doing that. I mean, he's never bitten anybody. And I don't want to seem like my dog is really dangerous. But I live across the street from a very large and very kid-friendly attraction and can't take the risk. Everyone understands "He bites!"
posted by montaigneisright at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2023 [38 favorites]
I initially hated doing that. I mean, he's never bitten anybody. And I don't want to seem like my dog is really dangerous. But I live across the street from a very large and very kid-friendly attraction and can't take the risk. Everyone understands "He bites!"
posted by montaigneisright at 4:53 AM on November 11, 2023 [38 favorites]
This won’t work with little kids but for ones who can read you can get harnesses or pre-printed dog coats with messaging. “Fearful, do not pet” or similar could help. My dog class has a dog with one that reads reactive but I think that’s for adults.
For little kids the parents may spot it.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
For little kids the parents may spot it.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you are in the UK, try something from Yellow Dog. We have an "I NEED SPACE" flag on our dog's leash and it does help to keep people away from us. Even though children can't always read, their parents can, and they make more of an effort to keep their kids away. If people think they might bother the dog they generally don't care, but if they think the dog might bite, hurt, or bark at them, they tend to back off.
posted by Polychrome at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Polychrome at 5:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've been on both sides of this, as a parent of small humans and as the owner of a dog who was impossible not to drool over. I don't think of what you're doing as discipline. It's managing the needs of multiple creatures who aren't able to regulate emotions and bodies on their own. In some ways this is just part of existing in a public space. In your Exhibit A situation, I fall in the camp of thinking it's more a dog owner's responsibility than a parent's. I don't think there's anything wrong with young kids coming around a corner ahead of their parents. As a parent I'd hope you do what you did, in the same way someone snow blowing or leaf blowing would stop my kid from running into them. (And actually, even if two kids were coming around corners at each other and my kid was the anxious one, I would think it's my responsibility to manage the interaction in a way that helps shape my kid's healthy growth in the world.) At that age parents in my area (dense, doggy U.S. neighborhood) are definitely training their kids to stop before petting a dog, ask about petting, and hold up a hand to the dog first. But as with all things human, it takes some time. In Exhibit B I think you did the right thing, and again I don't think the kids were doing anything wrong.
When I've been on the dog-owner side of the situation, I was advised by a dog trainer to walk the dog with a muzzle when we didn't want to be approached. It wasn't ideal for us or the dog. We needed to do a round of training at an awkward age. And we needed to supplement those walks with non-muzzle time, but it worked. It helps avoid the worst case scenario of your dog biting someone out of fear, and parents of small kids are more likely to step in-between when they see a muzzle.
I do sense in your question a more general impatience with humans on your part, possibly amplifying your own anxiety on behalf of your dog, so you might experiment with finding routes or times of day when you're less likely to encounter the humans.
posted by cocoagirl at 5:14 AM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
When I've been on the dog-owner side of the situation, I was advised by a dog trainer to walk the dog with a muzzle when we didn't want to be approached. It wasn't ideal for us or the dog. We needed to do a round of training at an awkward age. And we needed to supplement those walks with non-muzzle time, but it worked. It helps avoid the worst case scenario of your dog biting someone out of fear, and parents of small kids are more likely to step in-between when they see a muzzle.
I do sense in your question a more general impatience with humans on your part, possibly amplifying your own anxiety on behalf of your dog, so you might experiment with finding routes or times of day when you're less likely to encounter the humans.
posted by cocoagirl at 5:14 AM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
My dog is fine with kids, but I still usually say something like, "hold on! A lot of dogs don't like being pet and some even aren't friendly and could hurt you. You should always ask the owner if it's okay to pet a dog before you do." I also ask the parent or adult they're with if it's okay for their kid to pet my dog, since if something were to happen I want us all to be on the same page.
Since you want to have your dog not be pet, that first script combined with "This is Sally, and unfortunately she doesn't like to be pet, which is why it's important to ask. Have a good day!" And walk away.
I think providing rationale can be important for the kids and also teaches them etiquette that can help all of the dog owners in your area.
posted by papayaninja at 5:17 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Since you want to have your dog not be pet, that first script combined with "This is Sally, and unfortunately she doesn't like to be pet, which is why it's important to ask. Have a good day!" And walk away.
I think providing rationale can be important for the kids and also teaches them etiquette that can help all of the dog owners in your area.
posted by papayaninja at 5:17 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve always done what montaigneisright has done, I say my dog bites although she’s only ever nipped in excitement. That’s the only thing I’ve found that works.
posted by onebyone at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by onebyone at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd try something imaginative. Wait! This dog cannot be touched. If you pet her, she will turn into a monster. But she likes it if you wave! If you wave at her every time you see her she will be very happy!
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:47 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:47 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I keep a mesh muzzle on our dog when walking him. We’ve had issues with loose dogs and he is quick to bite at other dogs who run up on him now. A muzzle buys me some additional time to react in the situation.
An excellent side effect, as cocoagirl mentions, suddenly I have fewer issues with random people, including children, trying to interact with us. The muzzle sends off an “I am not safe” message and I appreciate that result.
posted by hilaryjade at 6:08 AM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
An excellent side effect, as cocoagirl mentions, suddenly I have fewer issues with random people, including children, trying to interact with us. The muzzle sends off an “I am not safe” message and I appreciate that result.
posted by hilaryjade at 6:08 AM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think your reaction is understandable, but in both of these cases, assuming there aren't things you aren't reporting, you could have done a bit more to mitigate the situation.
A. Small human - yes, you had to react quickly and very firmly in the moment. However, if the parent and child didn't just race away from you, you could have said something to the parent like, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to scare your child. My dog is very anxious, and I had to make sure your child didn't touch him."
B. It seems like you had a long conversation with a child who was very interested in your dog - which was not a bad thing on his part at all. You could have stepped in earlier with something like, "It sounds like you really like dogs. I want to make sure you know that my dog is very anxious and fearful, so it's important that you not get too close or touch him." A 10-year-old can totally understand that. And if you introduce it early in the conversation, you don't have to be worrying that he's going to try to pet your dog.
I agree it's crazy that parents aren't teaching children not to pet strange dogs. I'm on the opposite end of this. I have a lifelong dog phobia (almost 60 years now) that started when my first grade teacher decided we should be really scared of strange dogs and told us horrific stories about rabies. My problem is with the few dog owners who won't keep their dogs away from me!
posted by FencingGal at 6:27 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
A. Small human - yes, you had to react quickly and very firmly in the moment. However, if the parent and child didn't just race away from you, you could have said something to the parent like, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to scare your child. My dog is very anxious, and I had to make sure your child didn't touch him."
B. It seems like you had a long conversation with a child who was very interested in your dog - which was not a bad thing on his part at all. You could have stepped in earlier with something like, "It sounds like you really like dogs. I want to make sure you know that my dog is very anxious and fearful, so it's important that you not get too close or touch him." A 10-year-old can totally understand that. And if you introduce it early in the conversation, you don't have to be worrying that he's going to try to pet your dog.
I agree it's crazy that parents aren't teaching children not to pet strange dogs. I'm on the opposite end of this. I have a lifelong dog phobia (almost 60 years now) that started when my first grade teacher decided we should be really scared of strange dogs and told us horrific stories about rabies. My problem is with the few dog owners who won't keep their dogs away from me!
posted by FencingGal at 6:27 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Those parents are rolling the dice on their children's safety, and it's they who deserve the dirty looks, not you. This is right up there with letting kids run out into a busy street. They didn't get killed last time so it must be fine right?
After such an episode, I'd probably say something like "Teach your kids not to charge at strange dogs and you won't have this problem." They will likely say something about not being able to control the kid, at which point I'd suggest a leash.
If a kid won't respect "NO, STOP" and hand signals, there's realistically nothing you can do other than run away or keep yourself between them and the dog. You are under no obligation to be friendly or warm with someone who is not respecting your space, even if they happen to be young.
As an owner of a very cute reactive dog and a parent of a kid, all I can say is people are fucking awful about dogs on all sides, and it's just getting worse. You need to either develop better avoiding skills or get louder and more authoritative in your verbal defense. Sorry.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
After such an episode, I'd probably say something like "Teach your kids not to charge at strange dogs and you won't have this problem." They will likely say something about not being able to control the kid, at which point I'd suggest a leash.
If a kid won't respect "NO, STOP" and hand signals, there's realistically nothing you can do other than run away or keep yourself between them and the dog. You are under no obligation to be friendly or warm with someone who is not respecting your space, even if they happen to be young.
As an owner of a very cute reactive dog and a parent of a kid, all I can say is people are fucking awful about dogs on all sides, and it's just getting worse. You need to either develop better avoiding skills or get louder and more authoritative in your verbal defense. Sorry.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:00 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have struggled with the opposite problem when my kid was small - unleashed dogs running up to her and scaring her. Unfortunately, in your situation, since we don’t generally leash children (and how much judgment have parents got that do need to have their kids on a leash!), the expectation is that dogs are under their owners control. I’d also get lots of “she’s friendly” when I’d grab my kid up from a jumping or sniffing dog. For those dog owners, I’d occasionally say, “who knows what my kid will do!”
While I think “he bites” is going to be immediately understood by the kids, you might run into some interaction with the parents over that. With small kids, I’d start out with a direct, “no touch!” It tells them what to do immediately. And then you can try, “my dog is afraid. Could you wave bye-bye?” And then pointedly walk away while waving bye-bye. This could work for older kids as well and you might say, “sometimes he bites when scared so we have to go now. Have fun today! Bye-bye!” and just move on. Sharing the name of your dog can be sweet and helpful. It gives the kid a chance to “know” the dog without touching. You might find if you’re seeing the same kids that they would delight in saying, “Hello, Mr. Snuggles!” from across the street, respecting the distance.
posted by amanda at 7:07 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
While I think “he bites” is going to be immediately understood by the kids, you might run into some interaction with the parents over that. With small kids, I’d start out with a direct, “no touch!” It tells them what to do immediately. And then you can try, “my dog is afraid. Could you wave bye-bye?” And then pointedly walk away while waving bye-bye. This could work for older kids as well and you might say, “sometimes he bites when scared so we have to go now. Have fun today! Bye-bye!” and just move on. Sharing the name of your dog can be sweet and helpful. It gives the kid a chance to “know” the dog without touching. You might find if you’re seeing the same kids that they would delight in saying, “Hello, Mr. Snuggles!” from across the street, respecting the distance.
posted by amanda at 7:07 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Situation A: As soon as you know the kid is coming for your dog, say, loudly but nicely, "Hi! My dog is scared of kids! Looking only, no touching please!" You may need to repeat that. The key is to say it well before the kid is within touching distance, and to set the expectation immediately that no touching is going to occur. If the kid cries, the kid cries. Oh well, tough shit to the parent. You're being nice, you're not yelling at the kid. If it's a younger kid (and good lord if parents are letting their under-threes just run in front of them willy-nilly there's a larger issue at play), a quick, "No touching!" at a louder-than-talking volume should work.
Situation B: Older kids are even easier, I promise. As soon as the talkative kid starts up, say, "My dog is scared of kids and kids on bikes are even scarier to him so I'm going to keep walking and I would appreciate it if you didn't get close." If that doesn't work, try, "My dog is scared of kids and kids on bikes are even scarier to him so I'm going to keep walking and I can't talk right now."
You're not disciplining kids on the street. You're putting up boundaries for your dog, who cannot do that for herself. You get to decide, always, who interacts with your dog EVEN IN PUBLIC.
posted by cooker girl at 7:14 AM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Situation B: Older kids are even easier, I promise. As soon as the talkative kid starts up, say, "My dog is scared of kids and kids on bikes are even scarier to him so I'm going to keep walking and I would appreciate it if you didn't get close." If that doesn't work, try, "My dog is scared of kids and kids on bikes are even scarier to him so I'm going to keep walking and I can't talk right now."
You're not disciplining kids on the street. You're putting up boundaries for your dog, who cannot do that for herself. You get to decide, always, who interacts with your dog EVEN IN PUBLIC.
posted by cooker girl at 7:14 AM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
a bright "do not pet" vest.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:26 AM on November 11, 2023
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:26 AM on November 11, 2023
I've taught my kids (by example) to ask "Is your dog friendly?" or "Can we say 'Hi' to your dog?" before meeting any strange dog (an exception is if it's a golden retriever who is already walking up to us with the full body wag. Those are cool) and I'm saddened, but not surprised, that other people don't do this.
You are correct to tell them not to get near. You can also add "She doesn't like people" to your list. See if that works any better.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2023
You are correct to tell them not to get near. You can also add "She doesn't like people" to your list. See if that works any better.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 7:37 AM on November 11, 2023
People keep suggesting “do not pet” vests. OP said they tried that and it didn’t work.
posted by FencingGal at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 7:49 AM on November 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Most of the suggestions here seem a bit off base because they're assuming that the problem is kids running right up to the dog and touching her before you can stop them. But that's not what you're describing. It sounds like the problem is not really that kids are trying to touch your dog but that kids are coming too close for the dog's comfort.
It should be easy enough to stop them from actually trying to pet her, and it sounds like you have succeeded in doing that. But what you want is for them to give you a really big bubble of space and that's a harder thing to communicate. I think to a certain extent you have to see kids the way you see big, loud vehicles (another thing some dogs are scared of.) You can't control when they'll come driving down the road past you or whether they'll decide to stop nearby. If your dog is really, really scared of them you may need to make sure you don't walk in a place where there is any chance of one going by. But if the dog is scared but not absolutely panicking, you just need to wait calmly while the bus (or kid) goes by, giving your dog whatever comforting "no big deal" signals you can, and then go on with your walk.
It sounds like you're pretty stressed yourself about kids approaching or lingering in your dog's space. That's understandable, but your dog is probably picking up on it and it could be making her even more scared. If you can make it less of a big deal in your own mind, or at least avoid doing things that make it seem like a big deal, like raising your voice, that might help.
As someone who likes both kids and dogs, I probably would have approached both those situations a bit differently. With the little kid running up from behind, I might step out of the main path and stand up against the building at the edge of the sidewalk, facing the approaching kid. As soon as the kid got close enough to hear me, I'd smile and say in a friendly voice, "Hi! My dog is scared of kids, so you can't pet her." I wouldn't try to ask the kid to move away. That could come across as mean and the kid will leave soon enough anyway. But if the kid lingered, I might add, "It scares her if kids even get close or look at her. She's scared right now because you're close to her." Then I'd just wait for the kid to move on, the way I'd wait for a loud bus to move on by.
With the kid who wanted to chat, it might have been better to nip that in the bud right from the start. Your answer to the first question could have included, "She's really scared of kids. She's nervous about all the bikes and the noise. I'm going to take her further away from you guys so she won't be so scared."
There's no need to raise your voice or be unfriendly in any of your interactions with strangers. The more you can act as if you're having a pleasant chat with nice people, the more comfortable it will make your dog.
posted by Redstart at 8:11 AM on November 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
It should be easy enough to stop them from actually trying to pet her, and it sounds like you have succeeded in doing that. But what you want is for them to give you a really big bubble of space and that's a harder thing to communicate. I think to a certain extent you have to see kids the way you see big, loud vehicles (another thing some dogs are scared of.) You can't control when they'll come driving down the road past you or whether they'll decide to stop nearby. If your dog is really, really scared of them you may need to make sure you don't walk in a place where there is any chance of one going by. But if the dog is scared but not absolutely panicking, you just need to wait calmly while the bus (or kid) goes by, giving your dog whatever comforting "no big deal" signals you can, and then go on with your walk.
It sounds like you're pretty stressed yourself about kids approaching or lingering in your dog's space. That's understandable, but your dog is probably picking up on it and it could be making her even more scared. If you can make it less of a big deal in your own mind, or at least avoid doing things that make it seem like a big deal, like raising your voice, that might help.
As someone who likes both kids and dogs, I probably would have approached both those situations a bit differently. With the little kid running up from behind, I might step out of the main path and stand up against the building at the edge of the sidewalk, facing the approaching kid. As soon as the kid got close enough to hear me, I'd smile and say in a friendly voice, "Hi! My dog is scared of kids, so you can't pet her." I wouldn't try to ask the kid to move away. That could come across as mean and the kid will leave soon enough anyway. But if the kid lingered, I might add, "It scares her if kids even get close or look at her. She's scared right now because you're close to her." Then I'd just wait for the kid to move on, the way I'd wait for a loud bus to move on by.
With the kid who wanted to chat, it might have been better to nip that in the bud right from the start. Your answer to the first question could have included, "She's really scared of kids. She's nervous about all the bikes and the noise. I'm going to take her further away from you guys so she won't be so scared."
There's no need to raise your voice or be unfriendly in any of your interactions with strangers. The more you can act as if you're having a pleasant chat with nice people, the more comfortable it will make your dog.
posted by Redstart at 8:11 AM on November 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
For younger kids, use short, declarative statements in a peppy preschool teacher voice. Instead of "no" and "don't come closer" try "Freeze!" or "Stay right on the sidewalk!" while you step onto the grass. It's okay to head Kid A off at the pass rather than trying to outrun them. You're not disciplining them, you're just telling them what to do to be safe and sending them back to their parents.
Other scripts that might help:
"Look with your eyes, not with your hands!"
"Fido's scared of strangers, so walk back to mom and dad!"
"We're giving Fido space, take three BIIIIG steps backward! Now take three more!"
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Other scripts that might help:
"Look with your eyes, not with your hands!"
"Fido's scared of strangers, so walk back to mom and dad!"
"We're giving Fido space, take three BIIIIG steps backward! Now take three more!"
posted by Snarl Furillo at 8:12 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think anyone has mentioned gestures, but holding up a hand in a "stop" or "just a minute" kind of gesture can help. It's sometimes hard to parse words quickly enough to change behavior on a dime, so if you have a hand free, raising it, palm out, can reinforce anything you're trying to say.
posted by Well I never at 8:23 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Well I never at 8:23 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
She's very shy and nervous, please give her space. or She doesn't feel okay with strangers. Putting up a hand to say Stop is the correct gesture. Or say No. Stop. Please leave my dog alone.
i hope she gets a chance to socialize. I got my dog when she was 10 months old; she took months to lose her fearfulness of strangers and other dogs. She's much happier now that she knows how to greet other dogs, and she likes to meet new people, though barks at anyone who comes to the house, which is good.
posted by theora55 at 9:01 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
i hope she gets a chance to socialize. I got my dog when she was 10 months old; she took months to lose her fearfulness of strangers and other dogs. She's much happier now that she knows how to greet other dogs, and she likes to meet new people, though barks at anyone who comes to the house, which is good.
posted by theora55 at 9:01 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sorry you are having a tough time. We have a reactive young dog, who used to bark A LOT at people approaching (and sometimes still does), and who would be way, way, way overstimulated by our walks around the neighborhood. She would mouth us in excitement and we worried about her mouthing a kid. She is also a VERY cute goldendoodle so we had problems with people approaching and assuming she was friendly.
Things we did (and it sounds like you are doing some of these already):
1. Management. Get the dog away from the kids. Step into the road if you have to, put parked cars in between, etc. Others have good ideas on how to talk to the kids to get more space. I had to be SUPER vigilant on walks for a long while so we wouldn't be surprised.
2. Work on your exits. Bring high value treats on walks (tiny pieces of beef or something the dog LOVES) and use those to help get the dog away. Like toss treats to the side where you want your dog to go. Practice running away with your dog in calmer environments so she's more able to listen to you when stressed
3. Work on changing your dogs feelings about kids, bikes, etc from scary to awesome. This is called counter-conditioning. Our trainer had us use the "look at that" game, where you reward the dog for looking at the trigger from a distance that's not stressful. (Distance is key!) You can gradually work your way closer, always rewarding the dog with high value treats. Lots more info available online.
It also may be worthwhile to work with a trainer. We got a lot of value out of just 3 sessions.
posted by foodmapper at 9:05 AM on November 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
Things we did (and it sounds like you are doing some of these already):
1. Management. Get the dog away from the kids. Step into the road if you have to, put parked cars in between, etc. Others have good ideas on how to talk to the kids to get more space. I had to be SUPER vigilant on walks for a long while so we wouldn't be surprised.
2. Work on your exits. Bring high value treats on walks (tiny pieces of beef or something the dog LOVES) and use those to help get the dog away. Like toss treats to the side where you want your dog to go. Practice running away with your dog in calmer environments so she's more able to listen to you when stressed
3. Work on changing your dogs feelings about kids, bikes, etc from scary to awesome. This is called counter-conditioning. Our trainer had us use the "look at that" game, where you reward the dog for looking at the trigger from a distance that's not stressful. (Distance is key!) You can gradually work your way closer, always rewarding the dog with high value treats. Lots more info available online.
It also may be worthwhile to work with a trainer. We got a lot of value out of just 3 sessions.
posted by foodmapper at 9:05 AM on November 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
Please don't tell little kids that if they pet your dog it will turn into a monster.
Just firmly say "This dog bites, please don't get any closer or touch him thanks" as children approach. The end.
posted by ojocaliente at 10:38 AM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just firmly say "This dog bites, please don't get any closer or touch him thanks" as children approach. The end.
posted by ojocaliente at 10:38 AM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
We do pretty much what foodmapper does, but we also talk to our dog during the walk. People will overhear me saying “I see the kids and we’re going to get a bit of space since you’re nervous about kids,” along with my body language moving away from them or blocking her from them (and sprinkling treats) if there’s nowhere to go. Also, if you are talking to your dog there’s the side effect that people probably don’t want to come up and talk to you. It took me a little while to be okay being that person, but I’d rather not get into conversations with people during her walks.
If your dog is having a hard time on neighborhood walks, it’s totally okay to stop them for a little while while you get used to management and training (she was also going through adolescence so we tried to keep her away from things that could become triggers in her adulthood). We got her when we lived in a city, so our trainer recommended that she only went out for potty walks, training sessions, and driving her to quiet trails/dog friendly cemetery/etc most days. We did more enrichment at home during that period, and she seemed to do okay with that routine until she gained a bit more confidence with her training.
posted by sincerely yours at 11:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
If your dog is having a hard time on neighborhood walks, it’s totally okay to stop them for a little while while you get used to management and training (she was also going through adolescence so we tried to keep her away from things that could become triggers in her adulthood). We got her when we lived in a city, so our trainer recommended that she only went out for potty walks, training sessions, and driving her to quiet trails/dog friendly cemetery/etc most days. We did more enrichment at home during that period, and she seemed to do okay with that routine until she gained a bit more confidence with her training.
posted by sincerely yours at 11:02 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also endorse what sincerely yours says
I 100% have a running narration walking the dog. Mostly it's "what a good girl, what an interesting smell" but is often it's "yes we see the people and are going to go around them so you're not stressed." Living in a city it helps to let people know what's up but is less direct or confrontational that talking to the people.
Also concur with sincerely yours that dogs don't need walks. Our trainer told us to just skip walks and I was resistant (dogs = walks????) but if they are hurting vs. helping it is FINE to skip them. Your dog can get any benefits of walks (potty breaks, sniffs, mental stimulation, quality time with you) other ways, and walks aren't really about exercise anyway.
posted by foodmapper at 1:17 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I 100% have a running narration walking the dog. Mostly it's "what a good girl, what an interesting smell" but is often it's "yes we see the people and are going to go around them so you're not stressed." Living in a city it helps to let people know what's up but is less direct or confrontational that talking to the people.
Also concur with sincerely yours that dogs don't need walks. Our trainer told us to just skip walks and I was resistant (dogs = walks????) but if they are hurting vs. helping it is FINE to skip them. Your dog can get any benefits of walks (potty breaks, sniffs, mental stimulation, quality time with you) other ways, and walks aren't really about exercise anyway.
posted by foodmapper at 1:17 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I 100% have a running narration walking the dog. Mostly it's "what a good girl, what an interesting smell" but is often it's "yes we see the people and are going to go around them so you're not stressed."
Ha, I'm not the only weirdo who does this! "Please don't run into the nice lady, let's go this way instead."
Remember that it is your job to be responsible for the safety of your dog and those around him. You have to get used to intervening forcefully, even though it may feel strange to you to act that way towards someone else's child. You are not "disciplining" the child any more than you would be if you grabbed them to stop them from walking in front of a car. I don't think you did anything wrong in either of these scenarios, but you can soften the situation socially once you've achieved your safety goal. Depending on child age/behavior, you may have to do the loud "NO" to get the stop, but then you can be friendly: "I'm sorry, sweetheart, but my dog is scared of people she doesn't know. You can wave hi, though!" That's actually something most kids about age four and up can understand. Also: training, to get your dog used to being moved smoothly from one side of you to the other (this is a wee bit tricksy!!!). Sometimes all you can do is anticipate the tomfoolery heading your way and act to preempt it before it happens.
I also always try to be super nice to both child and parent when they do ask. "I'm sorry, he's scared of strangers, but thank you so much for asking, you should always ask first" (or to the parent, "thank you so much for teaching them to ask first").
posted by praemunire at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ha, I'm not the only weirdo who does this! "Please don't run into the nice lady, let's go this way instead."
Remember that it is your job to be responsible for the safety of your dog and those around him. You have to get used to intervening forcefully, even though it may feel strange to you to act that way towards someone else's child. You are not "disciplining" the child any more than you would be if you grabbed them to stop them from walking in front of a car. I don't think you did anything wrong in either of these scenarios, but you can soften the situation socially once you've achieved your safety goal. Depending on child age/behavior, you may have to do the loud "NO" to get the stop, but then you can be friendly: "I'm sorry, sweetheart, but my dog is scared of people she doesn't know. You can wave hi, though!" That's actually something most kids about age four and up can understand. Also: training, to get your dog used to being moved smoothly from one side of you to the other (this is a wee bit tricksy!!!). Sometimes all you can do is anticipate the tomfoolery heading your way and act to preempt it before it happens.
I also always try to be super nice to both child and parent when they do ask. "I'm sorry, he's scared of strangers, but thank you so much for asking, you should always ask first" (or to the parent, "thank you so much for teaching them to ask first").
posted by praemunire at 1:33 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is actually more so the parents' job than yours, honestly. … that's a matter of a slack-off parent causing a problem for you. This is false and frankly mean-spirited. Thank you for trying to find a way to keep everyone safe. I was recently bitten out of the blue while walking down a busy sidewalk by a dog that was on a leash. The dog owners didn’t even apologize (I think they were stunned and maybe they were a little stressed or sleep deprived.) All I could think about was how my arm that was bitten was essentially at my daughter’s face and eye level.
posted by vunder at 3:23 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by vunder at 3:23 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Avoid children. If small kids come toward you, turn around and walk in the other direction. This conveniently means you won't see any dirty looks. You handled the thing with the older kid perfectly well, but next time just skip to the part where you say the dog is uncomfortable and you can't chat. Kids don't pick up hints. You have no obligation to keep walking your dog toward things it considers hazardous. If you want to be friendly with neighbors on walks, leave your dog home for those walks.
posted by ewok_academy at 3:24 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ewok_academy at 3:24 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Turning and walking away is very good advice.
I've trained a few of our dogs with "Let's go!" which means "we're changing directions and moving fast and I need your attention and for you to be right by my side."
The goal is to make it really fun and get your dog's focus entirely on you. It can be useful for moving away from any kind of situation that is making your dog nervous and redirecting her attention.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 7:07 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've trained a few of our dogs with "Let's go!" which means "we're changing directions and moving fast and I need your attention and for you to be right by my side."
The goal is to make it really fun and get your dog's focus entirely on you. It can be useful for moving away from any kind of situation that is making your dog nervous and redirecting her attention.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 7:07 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
We used to have a dog like that in my family. She's still in my family, but she's no longer "like that". She's a joy to walk, super chill, and often confidently makes friends with strangers. So, don't lose hope!
Maybe some of this has been mentioned, but here's everything I know:
- get better treats. They should be so good that your dog's attention is on the food unless the child is very, very close
- try cooked chicken, shredded cheese, or the weird sausage-in-a-tube. You'll probably need a fanny pack or similar
- feed for every (!) child. Feed until the child is gone. Preferably, feed via "showers" of treats. Sniffing relaxes
- scatter treats generously. While your dog is eating behind you, you can handle the preschoolers and know she's okay
- goal: your dog should learn that eating next to you is safe and makes the children magically disappear
- consider buying the short and cheap book "Cautious Canine" by McConnell. Possibly also "Feisty Fido" for some leash tricks
- yes, "Let's Go!" is a good skill. "Look at that!" is magic
- you're probably doing this, but make sure you have your dog on the side that's away from the kids
- many insecure dogs feel better walking right alongside buildings. See what path your dog would like
- know that with training, your dog has a great chance of learning that kids are safe
- know that hiding behind you while you're calmly handling the kids is already a pretty good outcome
- know that it can help your dog tremendously to see that she's safe behind you, if you stay in control
- know that training needs to be consistent, because what she's learning without it is just that kids are scary
- treat kids like dogs if they're being rowdy. Use your body. Then, when they've stopped, use your words and redirect
- with the little kid, I would have turned, stepped towards her, put up my hand and sharply said "ah ah ah!"
- then: "I don't want you to do that. Be very quiet. Here, hide a treat for Lucy in the grass. Do you like her floppy ears?"
- use short sentences. Find a script that works, practise it at home.
- educate. Say "Dogs can't talk, but see her tail and the way she flicks her tongue? She's saying 'No! Nobody touch me!'"
- if your dog has a favourite toy, take it on walks and thrust it at approaching kids: "Here, please throw her toy!"
- if she doesn't, hand every kid some dry and small dog biscuits to scatter (dry so that parents don't complain)
- if it's legal, walk in quieter places such as cemeteries, botanical gardens, etc
- in general, walk where kids are not. Spend some time thinking about where that might be locally.
- if you're financially able, get a trainer. A single session could noticeably improve your handling
- a trainer with aversive methods (leash jerks, "hey!", that dumb hissing noise) will make things so much worse
- anything that makes your dog cute or noticeable (bright vest) will be interesting to kids
- if she likes to get dirty or wet, let her. That can make her seem less approachable. Skip the super-cute harness, too
- if she's small, 100% pick her up. Have a cue to tell her you're about to
- in really bad situations (pack of preschoolers), yell "She has fleas!!" and watch parents scramble to grab their kids
- you sound super thoughtful and I'd like to be your dog's voice for a sec: thank you so much for caring
posted by toucan at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe some of this has been mentioned, but here's everything I know:
- get better treats. They should be so good that your dog's attention is on the food unless the child is very, very close
- try cooked chicken, shredded cheese, or the weird sausage-in-a-tube. You'll probably need a fanny pack or similar
- feed for every (!) child. Feed until the child is gone. Preferably, feed via "showers" of treats. Sniffing relaxes
- scatter treats generously. While your dog is eating behind you, you can handle the preschoolers and know she's okay
- goal: your dog should learn that eating next to you is safe and makes the children magically disappear
- consider buying the short and cheap book "Cautious Canine" by McConnell. Possibly also "Feisty Fido" for some leash tricks
- yes, "Let's Go!" is a good skill. "Look at that!" is magic
- you're probably doing this, but make sure you have your dog on the side that's away from the kids
- many insecure dogs feel better walking right alongside buildings. See what path your dog would like
- know that with training, your dog has a great chance of learning that kids are safe
- know that hiding behind you while you're calmly handling the kids is already a pretty good outcome
- know that it can help your dog tremendously to see that she's safe behind you, if you stay in control
- know that training needs to be consistent, because what she's learning without it is just that kids are scary
- treat kids like dogs if they're being rowdy. Use your body. Then, when they've stopped, use your words and redirect
- with the little kid, I would have turned, stepped towards her, put up my hand and sharply said "ah ah ah!"
- then: "I don't want you to do that. Be very quiet. Here, hide a treat for Lucy in the grass. Do you like her floppy ears?"
- use short sentences. Find a script that works, practise it at home.
- educate. Say "Dogs can't talk, but see her tail and the way she flicks her tongue? She's saying 'No! Nobody touch me!'"
- if your dog has a favourite toy, take it on walks and thrust it at approaching kids: "Here, please throw her toy!"
- if she doesn't, hand every kid some dry and small dog biscuits to scatter (dry so that parents don't complain)
- if it's legal, walk in quieter places such as cemeteries, botanical gardens, etc
- in general, walk where kids are not. Spend some time thinking about where that might be locally.
- if you're financially able, get a trainer. A single session could noticeably improve your handling
- a trainer with aversive methods (leash jerks, "hey!", that dumb hissing noise) will make things so much worse
- anything that makes your dog cute or noticeable (bright vest) will be interesting to kids
- if she likes to get dirty or wet, let her. That can make her seem less approachable. Skip the super-cute harness, too
- if she's small, 100% pick her up. Have a cue to tell her you're about to
- in really bad situations (pack of preschoolers), yell "She has fleas!!" and watch parents scramble to grab their kids
- you sound super thoughtful and I'd like to be your dog's voice for a sec: thank you so much for caring
posted by toucan at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of my two dogs looks like a syrupy cute children's book illustration. She's a black lab-basset mix, and she appears to many people to be a labrador puppy--so they're already making assumptions that she'll love kids. Toddlers run at her, with arms outstretched, shouting "PUPPEEEE!" But she doesn't like kids. She's not fearful or anxious. She just doesn't like small humans until they're around 10 or 12. She's also now nearly 12 herself, she's always been this way, and she isn't going to change. Oh, she also hates other dogs, and we live in a dense walkable city environment where dogs are constantly around us. We have a patio, not a yard per se, so we walk our dogs multiple times every day.
What you describe is 1) a dog management issue, and 2) a managing your own emotions issue.
Exhibit A: 4 or 5 year old comes running up to us, rounding a corner. Parent slowly strolls behind us without trying to catch up. Kid is barreling at us full speed screaming about “petting the dog” and I am trying to walk faster, but kid catches up. I say “NO!” and “DON’T COME ANY CLOSER” and put my hand up in a stop signal as my dog cowers behind me, tail tucked. Parent catches up as the child starts crying. I’m awkwardly walking away while parent gives us very dirty looks.
I think you did fine here. Although usually when the kid is too close for my comfort is when I just step out into the street to give a wide berth, or I just cross the street. Who cares if someone gives you dirty looks for protecting their child from interacting with your fearful dog? This is something I recommend you try to get past. Disappointing people happens. The most important thing here is that neither child nor dog was harmed.
Exhibit B: A group of 10 year old boys on bicycles see us out walking (around 8pm), they’re polite but obviously noisy. One of them rides up to us and keeps trying to talk to me about my dog (“where did you get her? How old is she?” etc. I keep trying to finish the conversation to walk away but the boy won’t let us go. He keeps trying to catch up to us as we’re walking away, so I say “sorry, she’s uncomfortable so I need to go”.
Try this next time:
Them: "Where did you get her?"
You: "From xyz shelter. She's a great dog, but she really doesn't like [kids/noise/bikes/whatever]. Have a good ride!" And then leave. Cross the street, turn around in the other direction, etc.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 1:04 PM on November 13, 2023
What you describe is 1) a dog management issue, and 2) a managing your own emotions issue.
Exhibit A: 4 or 5 year old comes running up to us, rounding a corner. Parent slowly strolls behind us without trying to catch up. Kid is barreling at us full speed screaming about “petting the dog” and I am trying to walk faster, but kid catches up. I say “NO!” and “DON’T COME ANY CLOSER” and put my hand up in a stop signal as my dog cowers behind me, tail tucked. Parent catches up as the child starts crying. I’m awkwardly walking away while parent gives us very dirty looks.
I think you did fine here. Although usually when the kid is too close for my comfort is when I just step out into the street to give a wide berth, or I just cross the street. Who cares if someone gives you dirty looks for protecting their child from interacting with your fearful dog? This is something I recommend you try to get past. Disappointing people happens. The most important thing here is that neither child nor dog was harmed.
Exhibit B: A group of 10 year old boys on bicycles see us out walking (around 8pm), they’re polite but obviously noisy. One of them rides up to us and keeps trying to talk to me about my dog (“where did you get her? How old is she?” etc. I keep trying to finish the conversation to walk away but the boy won’t let us go. He keeps trying to catch up to us as we’re walking away, so I say “sorry, she’s uncomfortable so I need to go”.
Try this next time:
Them: "Where did you get her?"
You: "From xyz shelter. She's a great dog, but she really doesn't like [kids/noise/bikes/whatever]. Have a good ride!" And then leave. Cross the street, turn around in the other direction, etc.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 1:04 PM on November 13, 2023
A high contrast training head halter also seems to signal the dog is less approachable IME. Maybe not to excited kids, but might get the parents to react.
posted by GrimmblyTuna at 6:20 PM on November 13, 2023
posted by GrimmblyTuna at 6:20 PM on November 13, 2023
I agree that a muzzle seems to make the dog mentally register as less "cute to pet" and so kids tend to approach at a lower velocity, as well as making parents steer their kids away. I would not tell people your dog bites if your dog does not in fact bite; when my dog was going through the process of being declared a potentially dangerous dog one of the questions asked was whether I had known they were likely to bite. I could see this returning to trouble you.
posted by corb at 7:20 PM on November 13, 2023
posted by corb at 7:20 PM on November 13, 2023
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But if you're looking for an exact script, I think with younger children like Exhibit A, you could add "My dog is really scared of people she doesn't know So you can say hi with your words, but from a little bit far away like that." And if your dog is small enough to be picked up and held, so it's out of the child's reach, that will also help.
With older children like with Exhibit B, you did exactly the right thing - "she's scared of strangers, so I need to go." If the kid is persistent, you ABSOLUTELY are within your rights to say "look, this is scaring her and making things worse. Please stop." Saying something like this is NOT turning you into the old mean lady who yells at kids, it makes you a responsible person who is enforcing boundaries. A ten-year-old should have the emotional maturity to know that we don't always get to pet all the dogs we want to pet!
Also:
I don’t want to be disciplining some stranger’s kid on the street.
Sometimes we DO need to speak up and give guidance strangers' kids if the parent is absent or otherwise distracted, especially if the kid is doing something that could get them hurt or that negatively affects us. When Hilary Clinton said that "it takes a village to raise a child", this is one of the things she meant.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:29 AM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]