Relationship convos with ASD Man
September 7, 2023 8:52 PM Subscribe
I (40's F) have been alternating friends/dating C (40's M) who has ASD for a few years now. We get along really well, make each other laugh, have great chemistry and a wonderful rapport--until we try to talk about our relationship. I want that to improve. If you've been through this, what helped? And are there any good books, podcasts, etc?
I've looked around for articles, books, support groups, etc. but haven't found anything that's quite right. I'm hoping someone out there has direct experience or knows of a group or book or something that can help with this kind of things. I don't need very beginner advice ("be direct") but I'm also not an expert.
For instance, he's high functioning with a job and pets and activities and definitely keeps a very regular schedule. Unlike a lot of people in what I've read, he has a great sense of humor / metaphorical language, and he's generally a great, empathic listener. Those things are not so much our issues. I want to learn some better communication strategies.
I accept that if I expect something from him, I need to ask for it very directly, even if it seems obvious to me. But sometimes it's hard to be direct about my needs without it seeming like I'm attacking him.* (I know I can't control his reactions, but I'm hoping that general ASD communication advice will help.)
I want to talk about where we are in our relationship. Things feel good and he's been working hard at improving his own skills, but I want to be sure we're on the same page. That conversation has historically been awful; he how to talk about feelings and I end up getting hurt. I'm sure there are more constructive ways to approach the subject, like by asking fewer questions or things like that.
I'm sure a number of you have been on one side of this or another, and I'd really appreciate hearing what's helped, be it your own strategy or a podcast or anything.
I've looked around for articles, books, support groups, etc. but haven't found anything that's quite right. I'm hoping someone out there has direct experience or knows of a group or book or something that can help with this kind of things. I don't need very beginner advice ("be direct") but I'm also not an expert.
For instance, he's high functioning with a job and pets and activities and definitely keeps a very regular schedule. Unlike a lot of people in what I've read, he has a great sense of humor / metaphorical language, and he's generally a great, empathic listener. Those things are not so much our issues. I want to learn some better communication strategies.
I accept that if I expect something from him, I need to ask for it very directly, even if it seems obvious to me. But sometimes it's hard to be direct about my needs without it seeming like I'm attacking him.* (I know I can't control his reactions, but I'm hoping that general ASD communication advice will help.)
I want to talk about where we are in our relationship. Things feel good and he's been working hard at improving his own skills, but I want to be sure we're on the same page. That conversation has historically been awful; he how to talk about feelings and I end up getting hurt. I'm sure there are more constructive ways to approach the subject, like by asking fewer questions or things like that.
I'm sure a number of you have been on one side of this or another, and I'd really appreciate hearing what's helped, be it your own strategy or a podcast or anything.
Response by poster: Thank you JZig! That's really helpful.
My guy has zero desire to be normal! It's a good quality in most ways.
The last time we split up was after I broached the convo of wants/ expectations and was surprised to learn that he didn't even really consider it dating although we were exclusive and had a standing date night and our relationship was functionally the same as when we had been dating. I'm not saying all of that is ASD; I think some of it came from having a hard time with our previous breakup and not wanting to risk that.
Regardless I was confused and floored and sad. Extra confused because his actions showed a lot more effort. In that case, his deeds were mostly good but the words were gutting. He seemed to understand later why i was upset and he apologized. I think it will go better this time because we are working better as a whole.
We found a way to short circuit some of our habitual problems and try again and it's working well. I had mentioned that I'd want to talk about that once we had a sense of what was working and what wasn't. I'm at a point now where I need to address this or it will eat at me. It complicated things for me to just sort of give an open discussion before. I'm hoping this time it can be more like "Hey, we're exclusive and we hang out and text a lot and support each other; it feels like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, and I want that with you."
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:01 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
My guy has zero desire to be normal! It's a good quality in most ways.
The last time we split up was after I broached the convo of wants/ expectations and was surprised to learn that he didn't even really consider it dating although we were exclusive and had a standing date night and our relationship was functionally the same as when we had been dating. I'm not saying all of that is ASD; I think some of it came from having a hard time with our previous breakup and not wanting to risk that.
Regardless I was confused and floored and sad. Extra confused because his actions showed a lot more effort. In that case, his deeds were mostly good but the words were gutting. He seemed to understand later why i was upset and he apologized. I think it will go better this time because we are working better as a whole.
We found a way to short circuit some of our habitual problems and try again and it's working well. I had mentioned that I'd want to talk about that once we had a sense of what was working and what wasn't. I'm at a point now where I need to address this or it will eat at me. It complicated things for me to just sort of give an open discussion before. I'm hoping this time it can be more like "Hey, we're exclusive and we hang out and text a lot and support each other; it feels like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, and I want that with you."
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:01 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking as another 40-something man on the spectrum, "where are we in our relationship" is the kind of question which fills me with dread because I *know* I'm going to say something wrong/hurtful/ignorant and the woman on the other side is a) probably going to think I don't care about her, and b) at some point use the phrase "emotionless robot" or similar when she gets frustrated with me not having the "right" answers.
Fortunately I've been married for a long time so this situation will hopefully never arise again, but ASD people often thrive best in well-understood situations and so now I feel like I could have that kind of conversation and probably manage not to say something wrong/hurtful/ignorant thanks to much painful experience. Well, at least as long as I was careful and patient and I knew the person really well and trusted their intent.
But there's always a risk, we're different and there is only so much that learning and socialising can do. The core differences between the way our brains work and the way a neurotypical person's brain works can't be changed, just adapted for. And that requires the other person to adapt as well as us. It sounds like you're willing to adapt for him and that's probably the most important thing.
Knowing that he's on the spectrum and that it comes with certain differences and that you care for him as a whole, not "despite" his ASD, is the single most important part of communicating with him (if he's anything like me; he might not be, we're not a homogeny but he sounds similar in temperament to me). We find it hard to feel connections because we know we're different, so when someone wholeheartedly commits to us it can be overwhelming and difficult to process for a while but it's immensely gratifying.
I strongly agree with what JZig said about context, especially why you want something. So "I wish you would do x in situation y" is good for me because like most ASD people I work better when I understand the rules (why oh why are so many people situations "fluid" or "contextual" or "metaphorical" or "subtle"? *sobs in autistic*), but even better is "I wish you would do x in situation y because z".
When I have that "why" it gives me extra information to add to my heuristics about people's actions and attitudes and motivations; neurotypical people seem to have those heuristics built-in but we have to build them consciously and always remember them. When we find ourselves in a new situation this process can be exhausting and having someone help us by giving us that info straight up is extremely valuable. Plus we often have to stop to work things out before we can carry on, so telling him will make the conversation go quicker as well as making sure he's got more mental energy for the bits of the conversation that really matter to you.
That's a bit of rambling answer but hopefully something in there is useful for you.
posted by underclocked at 12:00 AM on September 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
Fortunately I've been married for a long time so this situation will hopefully never arise again, but ASD people often thrive best in well-understood situations and so now I feel like I could have that kind of conversation and probably manage not to say something wrong/hurtful/ignorant thanks to much painful experience. Well, at least as long as I was careful and patient and I knew the person really well and trusted their intent.
But there's always a risk, we're different and there is only so much that learning and socialising can do. The core differences between the way our brains work and the way a neurotypical person's brain works can't be changed, just adapted for. And that requires the other person to adapt as well as us. It sounds like you're willing to adapt for him and that's probably the most important thing.
Knowing that he's on the spectrum and that it comes with certain differences and that you care for him as a whole, not "despite" his ASD, is the single most important part of communicating with him (if he's anything like me; he might not be, we're not a homogeny but he sounds similar in temperament to me). We find it hard to feel connections because we know we're different, so when someone wholeheartedly commits to us it can be overwhelming and difficult to process for a while but it's immensely gratifying.
I strongly agree with what JZig said about context, especially why you want something. So "I wish you would do x in situation y" is good for me because like most ASD people I work better when I understand the rules (why oh why are so many people situations "fluid" or "contextual" or "metaphorical" or "subtle"? *sobs in autistic*), but even better is "I wish you would do x in situation y because z".
When I have that "why" it gives me extra information to add to my heuristics about people's actions and attitudes and motivations; neurotypical people seem to have those heuristics built-in but we have to build them consciously and always remember them. When we find ourselves in a new situation this process can be exhausting and having someone help us by giving us that info straight up is extremely valuable. Plus we often have to stop to work things out before we can carry on, so telling him will make the conversation go quicker as well as making sure he's got more mental energy for the bits of the conversation that really matter to you.
That's a bit of rambling answer but hopefully something in there is useful for you.
posted by underclocked at 12:00 AM on September 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
Best answer: As an autistic person who mostly dates other neurodivergent people, a couple things -
1) Ask about what mode of communication is good for these heavier topics. Talking in person works better for some people, text (maybe something where you each have a full keyboard at your disposal rather than typing on a phone) is better for others. Text can be better for some people because it allows someone to pause and process information more fully before responding, and to compose their response more slowly.
2) If you are talking about relationship stuff in person, especially if you are the initiator and it is NOT a breakup talk, having physical contact while talking can be helpful/reassuring. If facial cues aren't a good form of nonverbal feedback for someone, continued physical touch can be better. Obviously this is a huge YMMV, touch is different for everyone and it might not work for some people at all. But for example, I like to spoon while having heavier conversations with my partner. This way there is no pressure to make eye contact (it is literally impossible in that position, lol) and the continued affectionate (but not sexual) touch helps both of us in what I think is similar to the way eye contact and facial expressions helps some people.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:53 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) Ask about what mode of communication is good for these heavier topics. Talking in person works better for some people, text (maybe something where you each have a full keyboard at your disposal rather than typing on a phone) is better for others. Text can be better for some people because it allows someone to pause and process information more fully before responding, and to compose their response more slowly.
2) If you are talking about relationship stuff in person, especially if you are the initiator and it is NOT a breakup talk, having physical contact while talking can be helpful/reassuring. If facial cues aren't a good form of nonverbal feedback for someone, continued physical touch can be better. Obviously this is a huge YMMV, touch is different for everyone and it might not work for some people at all. But for example, I like to spoon while having heavier conversations with my partner. This way there is no pressure to make eye contact (it is literally impossible in that position, lol) and the continued affectionate (but not sexual) touch helps both of us in what I think is similar to the way eye contact and facial expressions helps some people.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:53 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
This may be too obvious, but have you tried leading with the fact that you’re opening the conversation because it’s working well and you want that to continue? I wonder if there is some variety of “We Need To Talk” panic that has contributed to these conversations going poorly before.
posted by eirias at 5:42 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:42 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
It would be really helpful to clarify what you mean by 'wanting a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship', when you've just said that you already have all the things (support, exclusivity, high-contact) that normally constitute that relationship. What, specifically, do you want to change? Is it just, 'i want to call you my boyfriend when talking to others, and I want you to call me your girlfriend, and I don't want anything else in our relationship to change right now'? That's a totally different ask than 'I want this relationship to get more and more committed over time, and if that continues to work well, I would want to get married in the future', or whatever. Can you really hone in on what, exactly, you want to change right now?
posted by Ausamor at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
+ 1 involving physical touch/contact/closeness. Another preferred method for Conversations for me is long walks in a quiet neighborhood. There are options for physical contact while moving, plus it’s easy to pause for a hug. It also rules out sustained eye contact without eliminating eye contact. Physically moving helps limit restlessness, and it generally supports comfortable silence, thinking silence, and short tangents.
Do you ever discuss with him relationships in the abstract, or relationships that are not your own? Both can give insights into how he models relationships in his head, and which parts he agrees with/wants for himself, or doesn’t want. (If you need a better frame of reference, look up “relationship escalator”).
posted by itesser at 7:01 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you ever discuss with him relationships in the abstract, or relationships that are not your own? Both can give insights into how he models relationships in his head, and which parts he agrees with/wants for himself, or doesn’t want. (If you need a better frame of reference, look up “relationship escalator”).
posted by itesser at 7:01 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Thanks for your help!
Because he likes to have time to process, I decided to text him but also mention I didn't expect an answer right away and if he wanted to wait till we were in person that was fine. I sent it yesterday on his day off.
I took what I'd written and then rewrote it to be more casual and direct. I said how happy I was that things are going well and that we've learned better. how to communicate. I then said I still found myself wanting the boyfriend/vocabulary given that we are exclusive, see each other at least weekly, and care about each other. I emphasized that using these terms wouldn't mean that I expected more time from him or a long-term commitment, that I just wanted to simplify our status.
I feel like I got my message across in a way that was fair and positive. I haven't heard back yet, but it usually takes him a day or two to text anyway.
Wish me luck!
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:59 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because he likes to have time to process, I decided to text him but also mention I didn't expect an answer right away and if he wanted to wait till we were in person that was fine. I sent it yesterday on his day off.
I took what I'd written and then rewrote it to be more casual and direct. I said how happy I was that things are going well and that we've learned better. how to communicate. I then said I still found myself wanting the boyfriend/vocabulary given that we are exclusive, see each other at least weekly, and care about each other. I emphasized that using these terms wouldn't mean that I expected more time from him or a long-term commitment, that I just wanted to simplify our status.
I feel like I got my message across in a way that was fair and positive. I haven't heard back yet, but it usually takes him a day or two to text anyway.
Wish me luck!
posted by mermaidcafe at 11:59 AM on September 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
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Being perceived as "attacking" is a problem that I've had talking to other autistic people as well so I don't think there's a super simple answer. My one recommendation is to be specific about context: saying "I wish you would do x in situation y" feels much better than people just saying "I wish you would do x more" because the feedback is clearly about behavior and not my "failure" to be a normal person. A lot of autistic people have a deep desire to be "normal" due to childhood experiences so that can get pretty touchy.
posted by JZig at 9:44 PM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]