"I want senior living" "ok, how much money do you have?"
August 1, 2023 12:48 PM Subscribe
Just browsing senior living websites, it seems that the first thing they want to know, before they explain any options or give any sort of pricing, is detailed information about the prospective resident's finances: annual income, net worth, etc. Is that sensible? I wouldn't normally hand over all my financials to someone that was trying to sell me something. It sounds like exactly the wrong way to start a negotiation.
Are you talking about senior living as in assisted living (i.e., nursing homes), or as in 55+ housing developments?
posted by kevinbelt at 1:21 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by kevinbelt at 1:21 PM on August 1, 2023
Response by poster: Apologies, yes, assisted living of some kind.
posted by bfields at 1:23 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by bfields at 1:23 PM on August 1, 2023
Lots (but certainly not all, do your research!) of senior living facilities are partially or fully funded by HUD or other federal funds, so they aren't private businesses trying to "sell you something" in quite the same way an entirely privately funded apartment complex is. There are lots of requirements attached to that federal funding related to resident income, so the price of the unit actually IS different depending on your income, but it isn't up to the building manager's discretion, it is part of some federal formula.
Also, I'm not sure what part of the country you are hoping to live in, but where I live, there's a huge shortage of senior housing, so there isn't any "negotiating" going on related to rental amounts.
posted by mjcon at 1:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, I'm not sure what part of the country you are hoping to live in, but where I live, there's a huge shortage of senior housing, so there isn't any "negotiating" going on related to rental amounts.
posted by mjcon at 1:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Do you have a 2nd email account to use for spam? They want info so high-profit places can call you with a hard sell. I use the local Time & Temp #. It shouldn't be so hard to do research on what stuff costs.
posted by theora55 at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
100% it's not a negotiation. There is a price and you can either pay it or not, or you can pay with a subsidy or not.
posted by cooker girl at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The short answer is that nursing homes want to know whether you can pay the bill. Their prospective clients don't have much earning power remaining.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 1:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Retired senior living administrator (not in your state) chiming in. If you just want a rate sheet, it's probably easiest to just call and ask them for one, and tell them you are not interested in talking about anything else until you've seen the rate sheet. They almost never post them anywhere on their website, and the brochure they will email you probably won't have pricing on it either. If you want to just browse average rates, this calculator is a good tool; you can search by ZIP code.
As everyone has said so far, it's to ensure that there are sufficient funds to make it feasible for the person to live there, and if there are LOTS of funds, maybe to clue them in to encourage you to choose a larger floor plan. If you can't decline to complete those fields, you can put in nonsense numbers, but eventually you will be sharing this info with them if you do enter into a lease Assisted living in particular is almost all private pay. Medicaid does not pay for assisted living in most states. Some nursing homes are subsidized or can be paid for by Medicaid in some states, and "over 55" senior housing is often subsidized, so they'll be asking income for qualification, but that's not typically the case for assisted living.
And, as others have said, this is not like a typical apartment rental or home sale situation where you will be entering into a negotiation on the price. There may be a promotional discount on the base rent or the move-in fee ("community fee"), but there will be some set rate for the base rent and various set rates for the assistance the person receives in addition to their care.
posted by assenav at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
As everyone has said so far, it's to ensure that there are sufficient funds to make it feasible for the person to live there, and if there are LOTS of funds, maybe to clue them in to encourage you to choose a larger floor plan. If you can't decline to complete those fields, you can put in nonsense numbers, but eventually you will be sharing this info with them if you do enter into a lease Assisted living in particular is almost all private pay. Medicaid does not pay for assisted living in most states. Some nursing homes are subsidized or can be paid for by Medicaid in some states, and "over 55" senior housing is often subsidized, so they'll be asking income for qualification, but that's not typically the case for assisted living.
And, as others have said, this is not like a typical apartment rental or home sale situation where you will be entering into a negotiation on the price. There may be a promotional discount on the base rent or the move-in fee ("community fee"), but there will be some set rate for the base rent and various set rates for the assistance the person receives in addition to their care.
posted by assenav at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
Going through this exact thing right now for my in-laws, and yes, it's exactly the way others have described it here. Although it seems tacky and invasive for them to ask upfront, it saves lots of time for them to get the financials first, as opposed to giving you their whole pitch about how great the place is, only to find out people are in no position to afford what they're selling.
posted by Rykey at 2:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 2:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It's obnoxious. I don't know a single other industry that operates this way, and you are certainly allowed to be irritated at such bullshit. The only shortcut I know is to hire the most experienced elder care consultant you can find. They will have ballpark ranges from past clients and the contacts to get past the "wallet biopsy", as our care manager called it. I highly recommend checking with friends/colleagues or searching on the Aging Life Care Association site for someone near you. It does have to be someone local, from a practical standpoint. They can walk you through the tricky parts, like which places are continuing care, which places have spots, etc.
The silver lining is that assisted living, in particular, is an industry where you can tell almost nothing from a website. They all claim to be the most compassionate and feature pictures of happy seniors, but the concrete info is limited to nonexistent. Medicare regulates many nursing homes, and there will be a local health board that investigates complaints of substandard care, but for the most part assisted living is the Wild West. You're going to want word-of-mouth recommendations and make a bunch of visits anyway, so it kind of doesn't matter that you can't get real info without talking to someone. I mean, I know. Why is it you can get extensive reviews and information on a $25K car, but a facility where you might spend ten times that won't even tell you what the price is? Even a hospital, general contractor, or art gallery where they are deliberately coy about prices will, eventually, give you an up front estimate without asking for the details of your 401(k)! Good luck, feel free to MeMail.
posted by wnissen at 2:52 PM on August 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
The silver lining is that assisted living, in particular, is an industry where you can tell almost nothing from a website. They all claim to be the most compassionate and feature pictures of happy seniors, but the concrete info is limited to nonexistent. Medicare regulates many nursing homes, and there will be a local health board that investigates complaints of substandard care, but for the most part assisted living is the Wild West. You're going to want word-of-mouth recommendations and make a bunch of visits anyway, so it kind of doesn't matter that you can't get real info without talking to someone. I mean, I know. Why is it you can get extensive reviews and information on a $25K car, but a facility where you might spend ten times that won't even tell you what the price is? Even a hospital, general contractor, or art gallery where they are deliberately coy about prices will, eventually, give you an up front estimate without asking for the details of your 401(k)! Good luck, feel free to MeMail.
posted by wnissen at 2:52 PM on August 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
Best answer: I went through this with my parents and then with my aunt. My script would be very specific and concrete:
"I don't feel comfortable sharing our financial information yet. I'm trying to understand what is possible before we go any further. Can you please share your rates broken down by your base rate and any variation by room and level of service?"
posted by latkes at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [18 favorites]
"I don't feel comfortable sharing our financial information yet. I'm trying to understand what is possible before we go any further. Can you please share your rates broken down by your base rate and any variation by room and level of service?"
posted by latkes at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [18 favorites]
Oh and call and talk to a human - don't fill out this shit on the websites.
posted by latkes at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Agreed that it isn't a negotiation, but it is incredibly difficult to obtain clear, transparent pricing information. I went through this process in Florida with my parents. Eventually, yes, they will want to have a complete financial picture (they don't want to be stuck with having to evict you later). I found that the better-run places were happy to share their prices once I went and scheduled an in-person conversation, and as others have said, the script if they are asking for more information from you up front is "I'm not at that stage yet--I'm currently exploring possible options." I remember wondering at one point whether the release of pricing information was a form of gatekeeping, in that they possibly made it harder to get the information if they didn't think you were a good fit for their community. It does seem needlessly opaque, without any obvious reason for that.
It's definitely worth visiting prospective places anyway, because, as wnissen said, websites usually tell you very little about the place. It's not a bad idea just to visit 2-3 places as a form of reconnaissance before you start seriously searching. In my research, many of the more expensive options were not materially better in terms of amenities and services. But you wouldn't know that without seeing the place. Many places will welcome visitors to have lunch in the dining room, and this can tell you a lot, not just about food quality but also about the vibe of the community.
The thing that really stood out for me was the different pricing models, and this was what made it really hard to compare apples to apples. Some places wanted a significant upfront deposit on the apartment, plus a moderate rent with monthly service fees, kind of like a condo model. One I looked at functioned more like an annuity, with a big upfront investment that paid out over your lifetime. If you died or left the community sooner, you simply lost the better part of that investment, but if you ended up living there for a long time, it could work out very economically.
In the end, we opted to go with a community that had a simple annual leasing model, with a combined rent + service fees paid monthly. Possibly a little more costly on a monthly basis compared to the other models, but more straightforward. Also, the total cost can vary a lot, depending on whether you are in independent living (monthly rent + meals and amenities) or in various stages of assisted living (monthly rent + meals and amenities + hours/day support services). Once you are in the assisted model, they determine the level of supports you need, so you have less control over the costs. For my dad, his costs ranged from about $2800/mo for independent living in a 1BR apartment and went up to $4200/mo for the lowest level of assisted living.
One other element that may have been Florida-specific due to high demand, was that many places had waiting lists, and required a modest deposit to be put on the waiting list, along with filling out the financial information. This was the case with the place we chose, and fortunately for us, the wait only ended up being about 4 months.
posted by amusebuche at 4:38 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's definitely worth visiting prospective places anyway, because, as wnissen said, websites usually tell you very little about the place. It's not a bad idea just to visit 2-3 places as a form of reconnaissance before you start seriously searching. In my research, many of the more expensive options were not materially better in terms of amenities and services. But you wouldn't know that without seeing the place. Many places will welcome visitors to have lunch in the dining room, and this can tell you a lot, not just about food quality but also about the vibe of the community.
The thing that really stood out for me was the different pricing models, and this was what made it really hard to compare apples to apples. Some places wanted a significant upfront deposit on the apartment, plus a moderate rent with monthly service fees, kind of like a condo model. One I looked at functioned more like an annuity, with a big upfront investment that paid out over your lifetime. If you died or left the community sooner, you simply lost the better part of that investment, but if you ended up living there for a long time, it could work out very economically.
In the end, we opted to go with a community that had a simple annual leasing model, with a combined rent + service fees paid monthly. Possibly a little more costly on a monthly basis compared to the other models, but more straightforward. Also, the total cost can vary a lot, depending on whether you are in independent living (monthly rent + meals and amenities) or in various stages of assisted living (monthly rent + meals and amenities + hours/day support services). Once you are in the assisted model, they determine the level of supports you need, so you have less control over the costs. For my dad, his costs ranged from about $2800/mo for independent living in a 1BR apartment and went up to $4200/mo for the lowest level of assisted living.
One other element that may have been Florida-specific due to high demand, was that many places had waiting lists, and required a modest deposit to be put on the waiting list, along with filling out the financial information. This was the case with the place we chose, and fortunately for us, the wait only ended up being about 4 months.
posted by amusebuche at 4:38 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also wanted to add that there is some helpful information at US News & World Report. I haven't used the website A Place for Mom, but it looks like you can research pricing there. Forbes also has a pricing tool. And JD Power did annual surveys at my dad's community, and while it's not pricing information, it might be helpful to look at how quality is evaluated at an industry level.
posted by amusebuche at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by amusebuche at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by Bottlecap at 1:21 PM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]