How do I sand a huge thing with minimal dust?
May 1, 2023 8:10 PM Subscribe
I really want to paint a huge wooden staircase in my house. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the task. How do I manage dust and washroom access?
I need to scuff up the varnish so paint will adhere, so that means some sanding.
1. The staircase is made of varnished wood - it's not painted. I want to paint the whole thing - the sides, undersides, railings, stairs, risers... all of it. Do I need to test clear varnish for lead?
2. It's not possible to wall off the staircase with plastic- it's in the centre of the house. How can I minimize dust? I'm imagining it coating the furniture, bookshelves, etc - seems so unhealthy (I have a toddler). Is there some way to sand that actually collects dust well as you go?
3. Our only bathroom is upstairs, so so we need to use the stairs. How do I paint them so we can still get upstairs - do I just skip stairs and make it take 2 days? How long before the paint is cured enough to walk on it?
4. What kind of paint and tools should I use? I think I want to do something colourful like this
I've never painted stairs before, or anything so large, so I'd be grateful for any advice.
I'm a bit overwhelmed by the size of the task and how messy and dusty it will be. Thanks!
I need to scuff up the varnish so paint will adhere, so that means some sanding.
1. The staircase is made of varnished wood - it's not painted. I want to paint the whole thing - the sides, undersides, railings, stairs, risers... all of it. Do I need to test clear varnish for lead?
2. It's not possible to wall off the staircase with plastic- it's in the centre of the house. How can I minimize dust? I'm imagining it coating the furniture, bookshelves, etc - seems so unhealthy (I have a toddler). Is there some way to sand that actually collects dust well as you go?
3. Our only bathroom is upstairs, so so we need to use the stairs. How do I paint them so we can still get upstairs - do I just skip stairs and make it take 2 days? How long before the paint is cured enough to walk on it?
4. What kind of paint and tools should I use? I think I want to do something colourful like this
I've never painted stairs before, or anything so large, so I'd be grateful for any advice.
I'm a bit overwhelmed by the size of the task and how messy and dusty it will be. Thanks!
You can absolutely buy high-grade sanding systems that trap nearly all dust — they will likely cost more than hiring a professional to do the job (not kidding) using those same tools.
So I agree: hire someone. Or, if you DIY, move out temporarily. Even if you hire someone, you may still want to move out temporarily. I just… I just see madness in your future.
(You can get fairly cheap testing kits that will warn you of lead in paint/varnish, do that first so that you know how much you need to worry)
posted by aramaic at 10:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
So I agree: hire someone. Or, if you DIY, move out temporarily. Even if you hire someone, you may still want to move out temporarily. I just… I just see madness in your future.
(You can get fairly cheap testing kits that will warn you of lead in paint/varnish, do that first so that you know how much you need to worry)
posted by aramaic at 10:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I assisted with painting a staircase, albeit a non-essential one. We did all one color, which I believe was significantly easier, though I would have loved something like that rainbow.
The stairs were previously painted but in bad shape. We planned to put a runner (but still haven't) so we didn't do the most thorough job patching and sanding.
We used a Zinsser Zero VOC Primer. I'm not sure what paint we used beyond Benjamin Moore low or zero VOC. My husband asked at the hardware store for the best for painting stairs.
Some tutorials mentioned mixing something into the paint for texture. If I did it again, I would consider doing that. Painted stairs (in good shape) are extremely slippery.
It took us a couple of days for the entire process. My memory is the paint needing several hours to dry enough to walk on and we kept to only walking on it in socks for a month (length of cure). I have vague memories that the primer took even longer to dry, maybe 24 or 48 hours.
Latex paint on wood chips really easy so I really recommend the primer. We learned that the hard way on many projects before the stairs.
I also learned the hard way about dust. We had our basement floor redone. They were theoretically using a sander that collects dust. The dust rose and the entire first floor was coated in the finest dust, even though the basement was behind a closed door. There is no way to sand that will collect enough dust to keep the rest of your house clean, especially sanding-off varnish.
You can buy these plastic zip doors and tension poles to put up sheeting. I highly recommend this whether you are doing the job yourself or not. Otherwise dust will be everywhere and it is terrible for you (and your stuff, and your toddler). When we have projects that will make dust, I now put one of those plastic zip doors on both sides of any doorways to any adjacent rooms. Anybody walking through the dusty area cleans off when they enter the clean rooms. Shoe covers when in the dusty area work well.
For example, when we had our dining room painted, I had plastic sheeting over the door ways from it to the kitchen, office, basement, and front hall, on both sides. If you just do one side, it being partially left open will let the dust get everywhere. Also with both sides, usually the dust has fallen some by the time someone gets the second zipper opened to leave the area and less will be tracked. It sounds so overkill, but somehow there will still be a ton of dust.
I also put three layers of drop clothes over anything upholstered or that isn't easily cleaned: plastic, then canvas (or fabric), then plastic. The top layer of plastic will have the most dust on it. When you remove it, some will fall off of the plastic and be caught by the canvas. Then you remove the canvas and again the bottom plastic layer protects it from anything that got through. The bottom plastic layer should also be tucked under the item so that dust does not get in that way.
posted by miscbuff at 10:13 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The stairs were previously painted but in bad shape. We planned to put a runner (but still haven't) so we didn't do the most thorough job patching and sanding.
We used a Zinsser Zero VOC Primer. I'm not sure what paint we used beyond Benjamin Moore low or zero VOC. My husband asked at the hardware store for the best for painting stairs.
Some tutorials mentioned mixing something into the paint for texture. If I did it again, I would consider doing that. Painted stairs (in good shape) are extremely slippery.
It took us a couple of days for the entire process. My memory is the paint needing several hours to dry enough to walk on and we kept to only walking on it in socks for a month (length of cure). I have vague memories that the primer took even longer to dry, maybe 24 or 48 hours.
Latex paint on wood chips really easy so I really recommend the primer. We learned that the hard way on many projects before the stairs.
I also learned the hard way about dust. We had our basement floor redone. They were theoretically using a sander that collects dust. The dust rose and the entire first floor was coated in the finest dust, even though the basement was behind a closed door. There is no way to sand that will collect enough dust to keep the rest of your house clean, especially sanding-off varnish.
You can buy these plastic zip doors and tension poles to put up sheeting. I highly recommend this whether you are doing the job yourself or not. Otherwise dust will be everywhere and it is terrible for you (and your stuff, and your toddler). When we have projects that will make dust, I now put one of those plastic zip doors on both sides of any doorways to any adjacent rooms. Anybody walking through the dusty area cleans off when they enter the clean rooms. Shoe covers when in the dusty area work well.
For example, when we had our dining room painted, I had plastic sheeting over the door ways from it to the kitchen, office, basement, and front hall, on both sides. If you just do one side, it being partially left open will let the dust get everywhere. Also with both sides, usually the dust has fallen some by the time someone gets the second zipper opened to leave the area and less will be tracked. It sounds so overkill, but somehow there will still be a ton of dust.
I also put three layers of drop clothes over anything upholstered or that isn't easily cleaned: plastic, then canvas (or fabric), then plastic. The top layer of plastic will have the most dust on it. When you remove it, some will fall off of the plastic and be caught by the canvas. Then you remove the canvas and again the bottom plastic layer protects it from anything that got through. The bottom plastic layer should also be tucked under the item so that dust does not get in that way.
posted by miscbuff at 10:13 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't bother testing varnish for lead, but it is possible it contains lead (less likely than paint, though).
In terms of sanding, I would use a random orbit sander or similar that has a dust extraction outlet you can attach to a vacuum cleaner - like this one. You may have to tape the vacuum hose to the tool, but using a vacuum will dramatically increase the amount of dust collected - the filter that comes with them doesn't catch it all by any means. You won't get 100% even then, but doing that will dramatically reduce the dust floating around. Wear a dust mask as well.
The issue of needing access to floor areas that also need painting is a solved one - there are specialised paints for this very purpose that dry much more quickly than 'normal' paint. Here's a couple of examples.
What type of paint you use is to some extent determined by what type of varnish has been used. Some paints, for example, won't go over oil-based paint. It's a little hard to figure that out for sure, but a paint shop can give you advice. Use a good quality brush - don't cheap out here, as the results will be nowhere near as good. Doing that rainbow look or something similar might work out quite expensive, unless you have some way to tint the paint yourself, because you'll have to buy a tin of each colour.
In reality, it may be easier to move out for a weekend while you paint and make the job a lot easier on yourself and your family. Before you go ahead yourself though, get quote to see what a professional would charge. It might be worth avoiding all the grief, even though you won't get the satisfaction of looking at your wonderful work every day.
posted by dg at 10:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
In terms of sanding, I would use a random orbit sander or similar that has a dust extraction outlet you can attach to a vacuum cleaner - like this one. You may have to tape the vacuum hose to the tool, but using a vacuum will dramatically increase the amount of dust collected - the filter that comes with them doesn't catch it all by any means. You won't get 100% even then, but doing that will dramatically reduce the dust floating around. Wear a dust mask as well.
The issue of needing access to floor areas that also need painting is a solved one - there are specialised paints for this very purpose that dry much more quickly than 'normal' paint. Here's a couple of examples.
What type of paint you use is to some extent determined by what type of varnish has been used. Some paints, for example, won't go over oil-based paint. It's a little hard to figure that out for sure, but a paint shop can give you advice. Use a good quality brush - don't cheap out here, as the results will be nowhere near as good. Doing that rainbow look or something similar might work out quite expensive, unless you have some way to tint the paint yourself, because you'll have to buy a tin of each colour.
In reality, it may be easier to move out for a weekend while you paint and make the job a lot easier on yourself and your family. Before you go ahead yourself though, get quote to see what a professional would charge. It might be worth avoiding all the grief, even though you won't get the satisfaction of looking at your wonderful work every day.
posted by dg at 10:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
As far as dust toxicity, the level of concern for varnish is definitely two notches below that for lead pigment paint. If you do test the varnish, it's probably worth a metals panel that includes manganese and cobalt. In a varnish your metals will be in 'driers' (rather than lead oxide bulk pigment) and while lead driers have been used, I don't believe they're in commercial use.
Since you have a toddler, they absorb everything, a metals check might make sense, but it's not routine I would say.
(I'll assume you've gotten advice on what exactly is on your stairs and how to paint over it successfully.)
posted by away for regrooving at 11:25 PM on May 1, 2023
Since you have a toddler, they absorb everything, a metals check might make sense, but it's not routine I would say.
(I'll assume you've gotten advice on what exactly is on your stairs and how to paint over it successfully.)
posted by away for regrooving at 11:25 PM on May 1, 2023
I asked the nice lady in the paint store about lead. She said, "Don't even bother with a test."
"Why?"
"Your house was built before 1980. You've got lead."
The fatal dose of lead for an adult is the size of six grains of salt. For a child it's less. The tests I bought were $20 for two. Any amount of lead whatsoever is too much to sand without precautions. Lead is a CNS toxin, and it's really bad for children.
My wife refused to believe we could possibly have lead paint. We have. We're still alive because I bitched and got a test.
You can sand by yourself. If you just need to roughen the surface ... do you? I know that's a common belief, but I'd check with the people who sell the paint. I've never sanded a wall prior to painting, and I'd know if the paint hadn't adhered. If there's a chance you don't have to sand, check. I've used paint which said to sand and use primer over bare wood, otherwise to just go for it.
The best method for sanding, if you have lead, is to get a bucket of water and a stack of 240 grit wet and dry sandpaper. Wet the sandpaper. Sand the varnish. It doesn't take much sanding. I could roughen up a square foot in fifteen seconds.
Remember you're not taking it down to bare wood, which is an immense job, and one the next person who owns your house will paint over because you didn't finish it.
Rinse the sandpaper in the water when it's covered. Mop up spillage with paper towels, throw them out along with the sandpaper. Keep a large, empty garbage bag next to you and put everything in it immediately. When you're done put your clothes in the bag, have a shower, and throw the bag out.
Sandpaper wears out quickly - figure five minutes sanding on a sheet and it's done. Use lots. It's cheap. Buy a good brand. Offshored sandpaper does not usually have any quality control and the scratches it leaves will upset you.
When you're done an area wipe it down with a clean, damp paper towel and again with another one.
Note that this is not a bad way to control the dust from any indoor sanding project. Wet and dry sandpaper doesn't clog as readily and lasts longer if you use it wet.
You can hire professionals, but I wouldn't just to surface sand varnish.
I watched a a building near here have all its asbestos removed in a single evening before it was demolished. I'm sure they did an excellent job. It's possible they even removed a few shreds of asbestos. There are lots of people who'll take a pile of your money and leave a toxic mess. If you trust them, fine. It'll still be expensive.
But first talk to a paint store. You might be able to just paint it, if you get the right paint.
I did some old, very rusty iron last summer with rust paint. The instructions were: remove loose rust and apply. I was diligent and took it down to bare metal, until I got sick of wire brushing. The results I got were best when I did almost no surface prep, where it was a solid red mass of rust. Modern paint is very good.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Why?"
"Your house was built before 1980. You've got lead."
The fatal dose of lead for an adult is the size of six grains of salt. For a child it's less. The tests I bought were $20 for two. Any amount of lead whatsoever is too much to sand without precautions. Lead is a CNS toxin, and it's really bad for children.
My wife refused to believe we could possibly have lead paint. We have. We're still alive because I bitched and got a test.
You can sand by yourself. If you just need to roughen the surface ... do you? I know that's a common belief, but I'd check with the people who sell the paint. I've never sanded a wall prior to painting, and I'd know if the paint hadn't adhered. If there's a chance you don't have to sand, check. I've used paint which said to sand and use primer over bare wood, otherwise to just go for it.
The best method for sanding, if you have lead, is to get a bucket of water and a stack of 240 grit wet and dry sandpaper. Wet the sandpaper. Sand the varnish. It doesn't take much sanding. I could roughen up a square foot in fifteen seconds.
Remember you're not taking it down to bare wood, which is an immense job, and one the next person who owns your house will paint over because you didn't finish it.
Rinse the sandpaper in the water when it's covered. Mop up spillage with paper towels, throw them out along with the sandpaper. Keep a large, empty garbage bag next to you and put everything in it immediately. When you're done put your clothes in the bag, have a shower, and throw the bag out.
Sandpaper wears out quickly - figure five minutes sanding on a sheet and it's done. Use lots. It's cheap. Buy a good brand. Offshored sandpaper does not usually have any quality control and the scratches it leaves will upset you.
When you're done an area wipe it down with a clean, damp paper towel and again with another one.
Note that this is not a bad way to control the dust from any indoor sanding project. Wet and dry sandpaper doesn't clog as readily and lasts longer if you use it wet.
You can hire professionals, but I wouldn't just to surface sand varnish.
I watched a a building near here have all its asbestos removed in a single evening before it was demolished. I'm sure they did an excellent job. It's possible they even removed a few shreds of asbestos. There are lots of people who'll take a pile of your money and leave a toxic mess. If you trust them, fine. It'll still be expensive.
But first talk to a paint store. You might be able to just paint it, if you get the right paint.
I did some old, very rusty iron last summer with rust paint. The instructions were: remove loose rust and apply. I was diligent and took it down to bare metal, until I got sick of wire brushing. The results I got were best when I did almost no surface prep, where it was a solid red mass of rust. Modern paint is very good.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh - washroom access: do one side at a time and mark it. I did our living room floor in 3' strips. I did three fine coats on each strip. You absolutely can't find the overlaps. I usually did it late at night, and (except for the time when my eldest son stepped in the wet varnish, let it pull off a sock and fell face first into it) it was dry enough by morning for light and careful traffic.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Aiming not to violate AskMe rules hi AugustusCrunch, just to say that latex paint over oil varnish is basically latex paint over oil paint and follows those practices. With varnish you also have the complication that somebody might have waxed it.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:48 PM on May 1, 2023
posted by away for regrooving at 11:48 PM on May 1, 2023
2nding that the stairs will be super slippery after painting. We opted for a runner.
posted by degoao at 4:36 AM on May 2, 2023
posted by degoao at 4:36 AM on May 2, 2023
Sanding varnish off stairs sounds like a miserable task, potentially impossible in its fussiness. Consider using a chemical varnish remover or some such product as a first step. Then maybe a light sanding to help the paint adhere. But trying to physically remove varnish with friction will be painful and messy, and even with regular vacuum breaks the dust will get everywhere (multiple floors, multiple walls).
posted by grog at 7:08 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by grog at 7:08 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
The dust-abatement technique miscbuff mentions seem to be standard operating procedure. I've had contractors work in my 1950s house and they just put up tension poles and plastic sheets around the work area without a second thought. Whether lead is a concern or not, it seems like a really good idea.
posted by adamrice at 7:50 AM on May 2, 2023
posted by adamrice at 7:50 AM on May 2, 2023
In addition to any dust-trapping system, run sheets through the washer - 1 cycle, so they get wet, then spun to damp. Tack to every door frame, including closed doors. (tack goes on the top, horizontal edge of the door frame) repeat daily. Open windows in the affected area, run fans facing out.
Test the varnish in several areas; lead is an issue, contractors are ridiculously casual about it, and it causes illness in adults, severe illness in children. Get copies of a contractor's insurance certificate, they lie about coverage.
Because of potential lead and expense and hassle, I would not do this.
posted by theora55 at 8:52 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Test the varnish in several areas; lead is an issue, contractors are ridiculously casual about it, and it causes illness in adults, severe illness in children. Get copies of a contractor's insurance certificate, they lie about coverage.
Because of potential lead and expense and hassle, I would not do this.
posted by theora55 at 8:52 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wet sanding, as AugustusBunch suggested above. You'll have zero dust.
posted by wryly at 9:39 AM on May 2, 2023
posted by wryly at 9:39 AM on May 2, 2023
I didn't think of wet-sanding - that's an excellent idea for dust reduction.
You only need to sand enough to 'key' the surface - sanding the whole layer of varnish off makes things worse and means you are starting the whole job from scratch with a porous surface. The only reason you need to sand varnish to paint over it is that it's generally a gloss or semi-gloss surface, so paint won't stick to it unless it's sanded. The ideal is to sand the whole surface without sanding through the varnish if you can avoid it. I never sand low sheen or matt paint before painting over it, just give it a wash with sugar soap, sand any ugly bits and slap the top coat on.
posted by dg at 3:10 PM on May 2, 2023
You only need to sand enough to 'key' the surface - sanding the whole layer of varnish off makes things worse and means you are starting the whole job from scratch with a porous surface. The only reason you need to sand varnish to paint over it is that it's generally a gloss or semi-gloss surface, so paint won't stick to it unless it's sanded. The ideal is to sand the whole surface without sanding through the varnish if you can avoid it. I never sand low sheen or matt paint before painting over it, just give it a wash with sugar soap, sand any ugly bits and slap the top coat on.
posted by dg at 3:10 PM on May 2, 2023
Mirka (and I think 3m and maybe others) make a mesh sand paper. Like this
It is good for wet sanding! I haven't sanded varnish with it, but I'd be optimistic.
I agree that wet sanding or scraping (card scraper) would really minimize dust.
posted by Acari at 7:37 AM on May 3, 2023
It is good for wet sanding! I haven't sanded varnish with it, but I'd be optimistic.
I agree that wet sanding or scraping (card scraper) would really minimize dust.
posted by Acari at 7:37 AM on May 3, 2023
Hi, I build houses and do a lot of woodworking.
I would get a Bosch 5 inch orbital sander - GET65-5N model number. And then get some 180 grit Mirka brand 5 inch sanding screens. The screens are amazing because the dust gets sucked right through them. Then a shop vac with a HEPA filter and bag - RIDGID makes a good one - and attach it to the sander. Use these on the big flat areas. I swear to you I get ZERO dust on the surface or the air when I use this setup.
For any rounded parts, you could buy a roll of Mirka 180 grit sandpaper and cut lengths that are useful, including lengths that let you hold both ends of it and pull back and forth like you're polishing a shoe. Having someone nearby holding the vacuum tip close to suck up the dust.
Even better than a roll of Mirka might be a very soft 5 inch pad that either or both Mirka or Bosch sell. This goes between or replaces the stock hard velcro pad on the sander, and allows you to sand non-flat surfaces.
Mirka also makes some hand-sanding blocks with integrated dust collection, that can hug curves, but that might be overkill.
posted by MonsieurBon at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would get a Bosch 5 inch orbital sander - GET65-5N model number. And then get some 180 grit Mirka brand 5 inch sanding screens. The screens are amazing because the dust gets sucked right through them. Then a shop vac with a HEPA filter and bag - RIDGID makes a good one - and attach it to the sander. Use these on the big flat areas. I swear to you I get ZERO dust on the surface or the air when I use this setup.
For any rounded parts, you could buy a roll of Mirka 180 grit sandpaper and cut lengths that are useful, including lengths that let you hold both ends of it and pull back and forth like you're polishing a shoe. Having someone nearby holding the vacuum tip close to suck up the dust.
Even better than a roll of Mirka might be a very soft 5 inch pad that either or both Mirka or Bosch sell. This goes between or replaces the stock hard velcro pad on the sander, and allows you to sand non-flat surfaces.
Mirka also makes some hand-sanding blocks with integrated dust collection, that can hug curves, but that might be overkill.
posted by MonsieurBon at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by degoao at 8:57 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]