I'm An Open Book
April 28, 2023 5:30 PM Subscribe
My boss said my son was guarded, and said I was as well. How can I not hate her?
Boss and I have known one another for sixteen years. We've socialized outside of work two dozen times and always with other coworkers present. A few months ago a an employee who worked in our building, but has since moved to another location, invited my boss and I to an exercise class with dinner afterwards. The three of us have repeated this outing a handful of times.
Boss knows my life and my family. She's met my husband a handful of times and she's met my kids maybe three times over the years. Boss is divorced for many years and has three adult children. My kids are young adults as well.
A couple months ago I attended another coworker's wedding. Boss parked her car at my house. We drove to the wedding together. At the end of the night, she came in to get a Coke, use the restroom, and chatted with my kids and husband very briefly before departing and driving home.
Last week at the dinner post-exercise class she brings up out of the blue how my 22-year-old is "guarded." She said, "he's the oldest" as maybe a way to explain the reason why he is guarded? Immediately after the guarded comment, with a faux-sad sympathetic tone she said how we was "so strong" for fighting off muggers in NYC (he did). We were't talking about kids. I took the whole thing as weird and the guarded part as a below-the-belt comment.
It takes nerve to say anything negative about someone's kid, and she really doesn't know my kid. I don't talk about my kids in negative or revealing ways. Maybe my kid wasn't speaking much, but was polite, and even if he did come across as guarded (or shy or reserved), I'm not sure why she said something about it. My kids are fine.
After the my kid is guarded comment she said, "You are too". Instead of asking her what she meant by that, I said something neutral like, "the older one is more like me". I hated and regret my reply.
I was trying to keep it smooth and polite since we former coworker and friend was present, which we have known for a little while, and are still getting to know one another. I didn't know what to say and was caught off-guard. I am not a confrontational person. Maybe I can come off as guarded in some situations. I can have a composed demeanor -- especially at work. I can be very open or "authentic" with people I trust. I have close friends who know my vulnerabilities, neuroses, mistakes, regrets, worries, etc. They know my foibles, my messiness, and bad qualities.
My boss's older son is not doing well and is 26 with no job and doesn't leave the house. Maybe she is feeling anxiety over this and projecting? Boss has never been my cup of tea. Her personality can grate to say the least. She's boisterous, hyper, a poor-listener, has a mean-streak, talks over people, and generally creates chaos at work. She's immature and an attention-seeker. She has a tendency to get jealous, and if she feels rejected she can get mean. I'm always polite to a fault and professional at work. I don't react to her chaos. I ignore her for the most part. She is always going on how she likes me, respects me, loves me, and it can be over the top. She has also given me plenty of digs over the years ("You're boring") and I'm not the type to give digs. I ignore her most of the time because I mostly don't respect her. I'm not sure why I decided to socialize with her. Since former coworker invited us, I thought she would serve as a buffer, and I wanted to hang out with former coworker.
At work today I was quiet. Boss asked what was wrong. I demurred and deflected. I could have said her comment was inappropriate, or how it upset me, or whatever, but I am so burned out by her behavior. I don't want to give her the time of day. I'm upset because she was a jerk for saying it. She said nothing revealing or negative about her own kids. Why did this comment come up for the first time when we're with this new friend?
How would you approach this situation? I could have said something last week at the dinner, and I could have said something today but did not. I could have taken the advice of a wise person who advised not to take the words of others to heart. I have to work with her again but I don't want to socialize with her again. I imagine I will get over it, but how would you proceed, or how can I think about this where I'm not so affected?
Boss and I have known one another for sixteen years. We've socialized outside of work two dozen times and always with other coworkers present. A few months ago a an employee who worked in our building, but has since moved to another location, invited my boss and I to an exercise class with dinner afterwards. The three of us have repeated this outing a handful of times.
Boss knows my life and my family. She's met my husband a handful of times and she's met my kids maybe three times over the years. Boss is divorced for many years and has three adult children. My kids are young adults as well.
A couple months ago I attended another coworker's wedding. Boss parked her car at my house. We drove to the wedding together. At the end of the night, she came in to get a Coke, use the restroom, and chatted with my kids and husband very briefly before departing and driving home.
Last week at the dinner post-exercise class she brings up out of the blue how my 22-year-old is "guarded." She said, "he's the oldest" as maybe a way to explain the reason why he is guarded? Immediately after the guarded comment, with a faux-sad sympathetic tone she said how we was "so strong" for fighting off muggers in NYC (he did). We were't talking about kids. I took the whole thing as weird and the guarded part as a below-the-belt comment.
It takes nerve to say anything negative about someone's kid, and she really doesn't know my kid. I don't talk about my kids in negative or revealing ways. Maybe my kid wasn't speaking much, but was polite, and even if he did come across as guarded (or shy or reserved), I'm not sure why she said something about it. My kids are fine.
After the my kid is guarded comment she said, "You are too". Instead of asking her what she meant by that, I said something neutral like, "the older one is more like me". I hated and regret my reply.
I was trying to keep it smooth and polite since we former coworker and friend was present, which we have known for a little while, and are still getting to know one another. I didn't know what to say and was caught off-guard. I am not a confrontational person. Maybe I can come off as guarded in some situations. I can have a composed demeanor -- especially at work. I can be very open or "authentic" with people I trust. I have close friends who know my vulnerabilities, neuroses, mistakes, regrets, worries, etc. They know my foibles, my messiness, and bad qualities.
My boss's older son is not doing well and is 26 with no job and doesn't leave the house. Maybe she is feeling anxiety over this and projecting? Boss has never been my cup of tea. Her personality can grate to say the least. She's boisterous, hyper, a poor-listener, has a mean-streak, talks over people, and generally creates chaos at work. She's immature and an attention-seeker. She has a tendency to get jealous, and if she feels rejected she can get mean. I'm always polite to a fault and professional at work. I don't react to her chaos. I ignore her for the most part. She is always going on how she likes me, respects me, loves me, and it can be over the top. She has also given me plenty of digs over the years ("You're boring") and I'm not the type to give digs. I ignore her most of the time because I mostly don't respect her. I'm not sure why I decided to socialize with her. Since former coworker invited us, I thought she would serve as a buffer, and I wanted to hang out with former coworker.
At work today I was quiet. Boss asked what was wrong. I demurred and deflected. I could have said her comment was inappropriate, or how it upset me, or whatever, but I am so burned out by her behavior. I don't want to give her the time of day. I'm upset because she was a jerk for saying it. She said nothing revealing or negative about her own kids. Why did this comment come up for the first time when we're with this new friend?
How would you approach this situation? I could have said something last week at the dinner, and I could have said something today but did not. I could have taken the advice of a wise person who advised not to take the words of others to heart. I have to work with her again but I don't want to socialize with her again. I imagine I will get over it, but how would you proceed, or how can I think about this where I'm not so affected?
Hmm. I don’t think of guarded as an insult, at all really. If I meet someone or someone I know is being guarded, I privately note it and also do an internal check of if I’ve said something that may have offended or that person may feel sensitive about, and then I steer clear of that topic (or if it is clear I put my foot in my mouth, I say so and apologize). But this is just humans being humans kinda thing to me.
I guess I’m wondering what your interpretation of someone being guarded is? Do you think it’s a negative reflection of their character? I truly have never thought that, but maybe others here will correct me.
All that said, she probably didn’t need to say it out loud to you. But there’s Also the chance she’s known your for over a decade, noted how your son seemed when they interacted, and felt comfortable telling you that—because she does not think “guarded” is an insult.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 5:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
I guess I’m wondering what your interpretation of someone being guarded is? Do you think it’s a negative reflection of their character? I truly have never thought that, but maybe others here will correct me.
All that said, she probably didn’t need to say it out loud to you. But there’s Also the chance she’s known your for over a decade, noted how your son seemed when they interacted, and felt comfortable telling you that—because she does not think “guarded” is an insult.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 5:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
It would never have occurred to me that "guarded" would be an insult. Especially coming from a person your son didn't know well, I would just swap the word in my head for "private". I mean, how else should he be with someone he doesn't intend to invest in a relationship with? Would the word "private" make it better for you?
Sounds like you need some distance from your boss in social situations at the very least, and maybe at work too. Seems she can trigger you, and that's not a great environment to be in. Perhaps the next time she asks you what's wrong, you can tell her you're working through some personal stuff, and would like some space. You don't have to explain beyond that. Then get some new exercise buddies.
posted by nadise at 5:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sounds like you need some distance from your boss in social situations at the very least, and maybe at work too. Seems she can trigger you, and that's not a great environment to be in. Perhaps the next time she asks you what's wrong, you can tell her you're working through some personal stuff, and would like some space. You don't have to explain beyond that. Then get some new exercise buddies.
posted by nadise at 5:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wonder if perhaps your boss talks shit about people often? Does she generally create a critical aura around herself and make negative comments about others?
Because on its own, this comment doesn't read as negative or insulting. But you're the one who knows her. Even if she made a neutral comment about your kid, if she said it in the broader context of being a person who says unkind things, then I don't blame you for reading further into it.
posted by phunniemee at 5:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Because on its own, this comment doesn't read as negative or insulting. But you're the one who knows her. Even if she made a neutral comment about your kid, if she said it in the broader context of being a person who says unkind things, then I don't blame you for reading further into it.
posted by phunniemee at 5:52 PM on April 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is a long relationship -- sixteen years, and you see each other frequently, probably more than many or most family members and friends. And it doesn't seem like you like her much. That's a bit sad, but that's life, I guess. The comment doesn't seem terribly negative, but that doesn't mean you have to like it, or her. It sounds like you regret socializing with her, so you can just not do that in the future, and keep being a cordial colleague.
It does seem like something's really bothering you, but I don't know what that is. Your relationship with work, with how you spend your time, or your relationship with your son?
posted by alexei at 5:55 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
It does seem like something's really bothering you, but I don't know what that is. Your relationship with work, with how you spend your time, or your relationship with your son?
posted by alexei at 5:55 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
From your description it sounds like she's someone you should be guarded around. Maybe your son's picking up on that too! Then instead of asking herself "why are these people uncomfortable around me", she just decided you're people who are always guarded, a fairly ego-protecting perspective for her to take.
posted by Gravel at 6:00 PM on April 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by Gravel at 6:00 PM on April 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
I think I get where you're coming from. I really dislike people telling me how I "am", especially when I disagree with their judgment of me or they only know a small sliver of me (usually because they're assholes I don't want to be "real" with). Your boss sounds a lot like someone I know well. This person likes to think they have everyone pegged and gets really bent out of shape when people don't act exactly the way they want them to or when they have differing preferences or opinions or just ways of going about life. It's very hard not to be "guarded" around someone like that. They're also really hard to divest oneself from probably partially because of their lovebombing - it makes you feel guilty. I've had some luck addressing things head on with my person - she knew she had issues and was open to improving (though it is slow going, let me tell you) but she also isn't my boss. In your case, I would continue to try my hardest to separate my work from my social life. Bosses shouldn't be socialising with their reports anyway, most of the time.
posted by Jess the Mess at 6:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Jess the Mess at 6:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
So your boss has a mean streak, is rude, talks over the top of people etc and is surprised when people are reserved or guarded around her?! That’s hysterical! I mean, at least she’s noticed that people aren’t engaging. I’d give my son a high five for knowing to keep his distance and keep on keeping yours.
posted by Jubey at 6:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 6:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Your boss really shouldn't have commented on your family at all. It sounds like your work-life boundaries have gotten blurry with her, and could use some tightening up, but yeah, it was weird of her to comment on your son, period.
That said, it's also a little weird to me that you're the upset about the specific*content* of her comment. I see "guarded" as a pretty neutral descriptor. So I wonder if there's some kind of emotional landmine there she accidentally stumbled on with you that she couldn't have known about that's making this feel bigger and worse to you.
Regardless, it's clear you don't like her, with good reason, and socializing has made her feel comfortable enough to cross boundaries for you. So in your shoes I wouldn't address the specific comment but I would definitely find myself unable to attend more exercise classes or other social things, and would not invite her to interact with my family again
posted by Stacey at 6:23 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
That said, it's also a little weird to me that you're the upset about the specific*content* of her comment. I see "guarded" as a pretty neutral descriptor. So I wonder if there's some kind of emotional landmine there she accidentally stumbled on with you that she couldn't have known about that's making this feel bigger and worse to you.
Regardless, it's clear you don't like her, with good reason, and socializing has made her feel comfortable enough to cross boundaries for you. So in your shoes I wouldn't address the specific comment but I would definitely find myself unable to attend more exercise classes or other social things, and would not invite her to interact with my family again
posted by Stacey at 6:23 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
“Guarded” is not in and of itself an insult, especially if it’s coming from someone very outgoing, so I think there must be something else going on.
Are you kind of done with her and looking for a solid hook to hang that on? You don’t really need one; you can dial back the enmeshment if it’s not working for you for any reason.
There’s a kind of old-fashioned school of thought that dictates you don’t say anything about anyone else’s kid, ever, unless it’s to say the kid is basically god’s gift. Do you tend to think that way? That’s valid of course, but be aware that most people don’t line up with that these days.
posted by kapers at 6:39 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are you kind of done with her and looking for a solid hook to hang that on? You don’t really need one; you can dial back the enmeshment if it’s not working for you for any reason.
There’s a kind of old-fashioned school of thought that dictates you don’t say anything about anyone else’s kid, ever, unless it’s to say the kid is basically god’s gift. Do you tend to think that way? That’s valid of course, but be aware that most people don’t line up with that these days.
posted by kapers at 6:39 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
How would you approach this situation?
Consider the source.
Ignore it. Ignore her. Move on.
Go to work, go home, and don't give her rent space in your head.
If she makes any comments to you, gaze over her head and say, "Oh, really. Oops, gotta go." Hum a little tune while you walk away.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:44 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Consider the source.
Ignore it. Ignore her. Move on.
Go to work, go home, and don't give her rent space in your head.
If she makes any comments to you, gaze over her head and say, "Oh, really. Oops, gotta go." Hum a little tune while you walk away.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:44 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It has never occurred to me that calling someone "guarded" could be taken as an insult - I, as it sounds like is true with you, am generally quiet around people I don't know or in professional contexts, even though I can be very open with close friends. People have told me I'm guarded before, and I've responded by agreeing with them.
You clearly don't like your boss. I'd just carry on doing whatever has worked for you so far in your relationship, and let this go.
posted by coffeecat at 6:50 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
You clearly don't like your boss. I'd just carry on doing whatever has worked for you so far in your relationship, and let this go.
posted by coffeecat at 6:50 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you are much more reserved than your boss, and she may just be noting a difference between you/your son and her. Neither your or her way of being is better, you're just different people. I don't know if she meant it as a value judgement, but she might not have.
posted by Summers at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2023
posted by Summers at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2023
Emotional intelligence is a misnomer. The term should be emotional skill, and it's got to be learned and intentionally taught by someone who usually comes from a long line of lucky and kind mentors or parents, or discovered piece by piece over time using time and attention sacrificed away from other parts of life. It also can only be applied if the person in question is sufficiently rested, focused, and well-adjusted.
This is to illustrate that it's actually a little bit of a miracle that anyone has emotional intelligence.
This person doesn't. The stars didn't align for them that day, and apparently other days too.
posted by amtho at 6:57 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is to illustrate that it's actually a little bit of a miracle that anyone has emotional intelligence.
This person doesn't. The stars didn't align for them that day, and apparently other days too.
posted by amtho at 6:57 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why does she think you're guarded? Because you are.
Why did she share that observation? Because she's a rude weirdo.
Why are you so upset about it? maybe just because you've been socializing with someone you hate and it's grating on you. Or maybe it's that she's saying things that feel too intimate (like a friend might) and that could be interpreted as a request for even more intimacy ("be more open with me!") and you feel like you're being dragged into an unwanted friendship with her.
How would I approach this? Stop hanging out with her! And maybe look for a new job.
posted by umwelt at 7:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
Why did she share that observation? Because she's a rude weirdo.
Why are you so upset about it? maybe just because you've been socializing with someone you hate and it's grating on you. Or maybe it's that she's saying things that feel too intimate (like a friend might) and that could be interpreted as a request for even more intimacy ("be more open with me!") and you feel like you're being dragged into an unwanted friendship with her.
How would I approach this? Stop hanging out with her! And maybe look for a new job.
posted by umwelt at 7:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
What your boss said was offensive. Yuck. What gives her the right to evaluate you and your son like that? And what makes her think she is even qualified to evaluate such a thing in the first place? She needs to mind her own business and stay in her own lane. Yes, stop hanging out with her. And do look for a new job if you can.
posted by SageTrail at 7:28 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 7:28 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Guessing that in that brief interaction, your son didn’t give her a response she was banking on, and so she’s yeah projecting.
She sounds like a piece of work. She may or may not have narcissistic traits (sounds like maybe) - if you think it’s possible, you should check out Dr Ramani’s YouTube channel for strategies on dealing with people who behave this way (just Google her name).
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:33 PM on April 28, 2023
She sounds like a piece of work. She may or may not have narcissistic traits (sounds like maybe) - if you think it’s possible, you should check out Dr Ramani’s YouTube channel for strategies on dealing with people who behave this way (just Google her name).
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:33 PM on April 28, 2023
I’m finding myself at odds with many commenters here. “Guarded” is pejorative. It’s a word you might use for yourself, or as a critical evaluation of someone else. It’s not a kind evaluation of someone else. And you never asked her to offer an evaluation.
But more to the point: her saying anything about her read on your kid or you is just plain intrusive. She’s crossed the professional boundary and is now treating you as someone she can make intimate observations to. You haven’t given her that access and, given what you’ve said about her, you are correct not to.
She isn’t good on boundaries, so you need to be. Stop going to the fuzzy friend outings and exercise classes with her. That’s confused her. She thinks you’ve granted her access to close friendship. You want to maintain professional boundaries and that really means not doing stuff outside of professional situations.
Don’t apologize for taking umbrage at the “guarded” comments. You’re reading her right. She’s passing judgment on your family and your private life, and it’s out of line. For fuck’s sake, I wouldn’t even say such a thing to friends I’ve known for years.
posted by Miko at 7:35 PM on April 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
But more to the point: her saying anything about her read on your kid or you is just plain intrusive. She’s crossed the professional boundary and is now treating you as someone she can make intimate observations to. You haven’t given her that access and, given what you’ve said about her, you are correct not to.
She isn’t good on boundaries, so you need to be. Stop going to the fuzzy friend outings and exercise classes with her. That’s confused her. She thinks you’ve granted her access to close friendship. You want to maintain professional boundaries and that really means not doing stuff outside of professional situations.
Don’t apologize for taking umbrage at the “guarded” comments. You’re reading her right. She’s passing judgment on your family and your private life, and it’s out of line. For fuck’s sake, I wouldn’t even say such a thing to friends I’ve known for years.
posted by Miko at 7:35 PM on April 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Absent any other information, that sounds like the kind of thing a person with terrible boundaries says about a person with good boundaries that they wish they could push past. In my experience, people with horrible boundaries are weirdly obsessed with people who keep them at an arm’s length. It’s like the good boundary person’s intimacy is a prize to be won. So perhaps she was expressing covert disappointment that your son wasn’t here for her bullshit, and your reaction is so strong because you are sensing that she only wants to create closeness with him to get closer to you.
posted by lieber hair at 7:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by lieber hair at 7:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Clearly there’s a wide range of feelings around “guarded”, which honestly I would not have guessed before seeing this question and the responses. Count me as someone who would never in a month of Sundays consider it a pejorative. Being a bit guarded myself for very good reasons I’m a little perturbed that people might think it’s a bad thing.
In any case if I were in a similarly ambiguous situation I would probably start by asking my boss what they meant/were referring to when they said they found my son guarded. It may not be what you think.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:58 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
In any case if I were in a similarly ambiguous situation I would probably start by asking my boss what they meant/were referring to when they said they found my son guarded. It may not be what you think.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:58 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Nthing that I don't necessarily see 'guarded' as an insult. It does seem however that they were considering and forming an opinion about your kid, which I could see why that might feel uncomfortable. After knowing someone for 16 years and having an otherwise fine relationship, I would assume that this is someone who maybe feels a somewhat personal relationship with you who felt like they had a free pass to just share offhand comments about you and people in your life. They probably shouldn't have voiced their opinion, but they are entitled to *have* one.
This makes you feel uncomfortable and that's okay and that's your right. But if you don't want to share your personal life with a person that might have feelings about it, you probably shouldn't have a relationship with them outside of work, which it sounds like you do.
posted by greta simone at 8:30 PM on April 28, 2023
This makes you feel uncomfortable and that's okay and that's your right. But if you don't want to share your personal life with a person that might have feelings about it, you probably shouldn't have a relationship with them outside of work, which it sounds like you do.
posted by greta simone at 8:30 PM on April 28, 2023
it sounds like she's conflating "guarded" with "professional"
posted by Jacqueline at 8:32 PM on April 28, 2023
posted by Jacqueline at 8:32 PM on April 28, 2023
To be honest, I would have had the exact same negative reaction as you. "Guarded" to me has an implication that you are on guard against other people, with shades of implication that one is hiding their emotions from others, perhaps out of fear. Professional is neutral-positive. Guarded has shades of being cautious, wary, and defensive. Coming from someone who is very outgoing, I would definitely take that as a subtle/not so subtle dig.
She sounds like the kind of person who would -love- to take offense if you bring this up again, and would -love- to say she never meant anything by it. Could she possibly have meant nothing by it? Of course. But since she went out of her way to comment on this description out of the blue, I wouldn't give her that benefit of the doubt. If you can, feel free to pull back from this woman and let her stew in her need to have opinions alone.
posted by past unusual at 8:54 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
She sounds like the kind of person who would -love- to take offense if you bring this up again, and would -love- to say she never meant anything by it. Could she possibly have meant nothing by it? Of course. But since she went out of her way to comment on this description out of the blue, I wouldn't give her that benefit of the doubt. If you can, feel free to pull back from this woman and let her stew in her need to have opinions alone.
posted by past unusual at 8:54 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm a guarded person in general and especially at work, it's takes me a bit to warm up to people and honestly I expect people to call me out as guarded once they get to know me ( it has happened a few times!) Never once have I concidered it an insult. It's pretty true I'm very choosy about who knows what details about my life and when, and if that's guarded that's fine with me.
If someone called my child guarded I might say something like "they aren't quite as much with their friends" and move on. I wouldn't consider it an insult. I might ask why if I disagreed with them, or counter it with hmm, I don't think so. But I wouldn't coincider guarded as a word in a conversation to be an insult.
In this case I might interpret guarded as a hint that your boss wants to know more about you and your son.
But you clearly are uncomfortable with this person and if you don't want a friendship that is absolutely okay. Your boss doesn't have to know anything about you really for you to do your job. If you want things more cordial and to remain professional then you can do so. But, I don't think this incident should be the deciding factor in that.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:10 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
If someone called my child guarded I might say something like "they aren't quite as much with their friends" and move on. I wouldn't consider it an insult. I might ask why if I disagreed with them, or counter it with hmm, I don't think so. But I wouldn't coincider guarded as a word in a conversation to be an insult.
In this case I might interpret guarded as a hint that your boss wants to know more about you and your son.
But you clearly are uncomfortable with this person and if you don't want a friendship that is absolutely okay. Your boss doesn't have to know anything about you really for you to do your job. If you want things more cordial and to remain professional then you can do so. But, I don't think this incident should be the deciding factor in that.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:10 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Personal remarks are rude, outside of intimate relationships. This is a rule that many people ignore these days, but it's still true.
"Guarded" isn't an insult, but it is a personal remark regarding the subject's personality (and it is somewhat negative -- it's essentially saying someone isn't frank or winsome.) I wouldn't like someone saying that about my kid either, or about me.
I'm not sure you really have a question here, but anyway, I understand why you're seething. You don't like her enough for her to be making personal remarks.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
"Guarded" isn't an insult, but it is a personal remark regarding the subject's personality (and it is somewhat negative -- it's essentially saying someone isn't frank or winsome.) I wouldn't like someone saying that about my kid either, or about me.
I'm not sure you really have a question here, but anyway, I understand why you're seething. You don't like her enough for her to be making personal remarks.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Hmm... I don't always know the impact of my words and have sometimes offended or hurt feelings when I did not intend. There are a wide range of cultural norms about this type of comment. This person is your boss which makes it hard to have a direct conversation as equals about this topic ("Hey, that made me uncomfortable when you said my son is guarded")
I think the spells the end for having a social component to your relationship with your boss. It is an opportunity to transition into work-only.
Sorry, this sounds like it's been a very bad experience for you.
posted by latkes at 9:15 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the spells the end for having a social component to your relationship with your boss. It is an opportunity to transition into work-only.
Sorry, this sounds like it's been a very bad experience for you.
posted by latkes at 9:15 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Invite the person you want to befriend (the former coworker) to hang out one-on-one.
Maybe think about a new job? Sixteen years of someone you really don't like or respect, who's also your boss, is hellish.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:18 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe think about a new job? Sixteen years of someone you really don't like or respect, who's also your boss, is hellish.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:18 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think of guarded as a nicer way to say unfriendly, so, yes I would consider it a critical comment to make about someone and their child. Insult might be too strong, but it's rude and obnoxious. It doesn't sound like she's the kind of person who would react well to having this pointed out to her. I'd probably continue doing what you've been doing but ease off on the socializing.
posted by Mavri at 10:28 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 10:28 PM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's an argument that any comments about a coworker's kids are inappropriate. Even compliments can be dicey in many cases. If you're shown baby photos you can say that the baby is cute, and if someone announces a kid's milestone accomplishment you can congratulate, and that's about it. So yeah, your boss was definitely out of line and deserves your judgment.
I just want to stress that whether your boss intended this as an insult or not, there's nothing inherently bad about being guarded. It makes a lot of sense to reserve your openess and vulnerability for people you actually like and trust, as you describe. There are people who think that unreserved openess and vulnerability is a moral obgligation under all circumstances, that clear boundaries signify a lack of authenticity, a lack of self esteem, or maybe even intentions to deceive. You probably sense that your boss is among those, and that's why you took umbrage. But these people are wrong!
My mom always worries about me, because she thinks I'm too much of an open book, I have no poker face whatsoever. She clearly doesn't mean that as a compliment. She sees it as unprofessional, signifying a lack of caution, a lack of social skills. She also sees it as inconsiderate. Good boundaries are not just about protecting yourself, but also about protecting others - other people don't always need to be exposed to your unfiltered emotions.
Of course that's the other extreme, and I don't entirely agree with that either. But I do think that my mom is slightly more right than the other camp. Your boss certainly should have been more guarded around you! She had a talk with your kid, and didn't get what she wanted out of it and felt rejected and then decided to express that to you. There was no need to expose you to her bad feelings in this case. I think "your son is very guarded" probably translates to "your son doesn't seem to like me much" and I think it's very weird of your boss to apparently feel a need to be liked and trusted by your kid (of course some people feel a need to be liked and trusted by everyone, but that's just not a particularly sensible expectation). She displayed bad jugment, and now you judge her for it.
So how to move on? Firstly, just be glad you're not like her. Honestly, when people who are the opposite of what I want to be, criticize me for precisely the one thing that annoys me most about them, I see that as a badge of honor. It just proves that I must be doing something right. Your boss correctly perceives that you are guarded around her, which is actually smart and appropriate on your part. Just keep doing what you do!
posted by sohalt at 11:34 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just want to stress that whether your boss intended this as an insult or not, there's nothing inherently bad about being guarded. It makes a lot of sense to reserve your openess and vulnerability for people you actually like and trust, as you describe. There are people who think that unreserved openess and vulnerability is a moral obgligation under all circumstances, that clear boundaries signify a lack of authenticity, a lack of self esteem, or maybe even intentions to deceive. You probably sense that your boss is among those, and that's why you took umbrage. But these people are wrong!
My mom always worries about me, because she thinks I'm too much of an open book, I have no poker face whatsoever. She clearly doesn't mean that as a compliment. She sees it as unprofessional, signifying a lack of caution, a lack of social skills. She also sees it as inconsiderate. Good boundaries are not just about protecting yourself, but also about protecting others - other people don't always need to be exposed to your unfiltered emotions.
Of course that's the other extreme, and I don't entirely agree with that either. But I do think that my mom is slightly more right than the other camp. Your boss certainly should have been more guarded around you! She had a talk with your kid, and didn't get what she wanted out of it and felt rejected and then decided to express that to you. There was no need to expose you to her bad feelings in this case. I think "your son is very guarded" probably translates to "your son doesn't seem to like me much" and I think it's very weird of your boss to apparently feel a need to be liked and trusted by your kid (of course some people feel a need to be liked and trusted by everyone, but that's just not a particularly sensible expectation). She displayed bad jugment, and now you judge her for it.
So how to move on? Firstly, just be glad you're not like her. Honestly, when people who are the opposite of what I want to be, criticize me for precisely the one thing that annoys me most about them, I see that as a badge of honor. It just proves that I must be doing something right. Your boss correctly perceives that you are guarded around her, which is actually smart and appropriate on your part. Just keep doing what you do!
posted by sohalt at 11:34 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
She's boisterous, hyper, a poor-listener, has a mean-streak, talks over people, and generally creates chaos at work. She's immature and an attention-seeker. She has a tendency to get jealous, and if she feels rejected she can get mean.
I would neither trust nor value the opinion of someone I felt this way about.
posted by terretu at 11:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would neither trust nor value the opinion of someone I felt this way about.
posted by terretu at 11:47 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
It takes nerve to say anything negative about someone's kid
Count me among those for whom the news that "guarded" is a negative assessment comes as a complete surprise.
This kind of mismatch in assumed emotional connotation is super common and I'd just put it down to that.
My personal fraught phrase was "can't be bothered": my parents had always used this to describe unacceptable and contemptible laziness and irresponsibility, and I was shocked to the core the first time my then new girlfriend used it completely casually to express an utterly non-pejorative "I choose not to".
Language is far more local than most of us assume and it's always disconcerting to bump up against an unexpected need for translation. See also: where is frowning?
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Count me among those for whom the news that "guarded" is a negative assessment comes as a complete surprise.
This kind of mismatch in assumed emotional connotation is super common and I'd just put it down to that.
My personal fraught phrase was "can't be bothered": my parents had always used this to describe unacceptable and contemptible laziness and irresponsibility, and I was shocked to the core the first time my then new girlfriend used it completely casually to express an utterly non-pejorative "I choose not to".
Language is far more local than most of us assume and it's always disconcerting to bump up against an unexpected need for translation. See also: where is frowning?
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
She's boisterous, hyper, a poor-listener, has a mean-streak, talks over people, and generally creates chaos at work. She's immature and an attention-seeker. She has a tendency to get jealous, and if she feels rejected she can get mean.
It takes nerve to post such an overwhelmingly negative assessment of your own boss in a public forum without having the question anonymized.
See what I did there? I'm using "nerve" in the sense of possibly reckless courage, while you've used it in the sense of transgressive rudeness.
Assessing other people's character is always a risky business and contrary to much of the opinion often expressed on this site I'd argue that the intent of what people say can matter as much as the effect their words initially have when they land, especially in one-to-one rather than published communications.
In your shoes I would not have imputed malice, merely linguistic carelessness - especially given the consistent tendency of loud and boisterous people to spray character assessments about in an insufficiently guarded manner.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on April 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
It takes nerve to post such an overwhelmingly negative assessment of your own boss in a public forum without having the question anonymized.
See what I did there? I'm using "nerve" in the sense of possibly reckless courage, while you've used it in the sense of transgressive rudeness.
Assessing other people's character is always a risky business and contrary to much of the opinion often expressed on this site I'd argue that the intent of what people say can matter as much as the effect their words initially have when they land, especially in one-to-one rather than published communications.
In your shoes I would not have imputed malice, merely linguistic carelessness - especially given the consistent tendency of loud and boisterous people to spray character assessments about in an insufficiently guarded manner.
posted by flabdablet at 12:17 AM on April 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
There's no way to know what this person's meaning of "guarded" was without having a conversation about it. Since it was said openly, I would charitably assume that it is not intended maliciously. When I've encountered that word, I think it's commonly in a kind of neutral tone that is trying to avoid judgment about what associations might be contributing to someone being keen on avoiding sharing personal information in conversation.
It sounds like the two of you have a much more involved relationship than I've ever had with bosses. I had the impression that you liked this boss until you got to the (long) list of negative assessments of her. Based on the flow of this question alone, I would say that... this unwillingness to share with your boss your feelings about a perceived sleight, at the same time that the perceived sleight has caused you so much distress that you no longer want a social relationship, can be defensibly read as guarded.
If you don't want a social relationship, so be it. There's nothing more to be done. If you think, as you write, that these feelings may subside in time and then you might feel less intent on a non-social relationship, that might be a time to pull boss aside and ask, hey, you said something recently that made me feel a certain way, can we clear it up so it doesn't happen again?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:28 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the two of you have a much more involved relationship than I've ever had with bosses. I had the impression that you liked this boss until you got to the (long) list of negative assessments of her. Based on the flow of this question alone, I would say that... this unwillingness to share with your boss your feelings about a perceived sleight, at the same time that the perceived sleight has caused you so much distress that you no longer want a social relationship, can be defensibly read as guarded.
If you don't want a social relationship, so be it. There's nothing more to be done. If you think, as you write, that these feelings may subside in time and then you might feel less intent on a non-social relationship, that might be a time to pull boss aside and ask, hey, you said something recently that made me feel a certain way, can we clear it up so it doesn't happen again?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:28 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
When you psychoanalyze, interpret and assess the character of another human, it's a blurring of lines.
If a random amateur parachuted in and assessed my child, I'd consider it very inappropriate.
Maybe that makes me old school, or perhaps I'm "guarded" too. So be it, don't explain my kid to me if I haven't asked for your opinion.
You're engaging in psychoanalysis of your boss, too, which is another blurring of boundaries.
All in all, you're thrown together by circumstances, but I don't think y'all like each other. So you try to rationalize it all away with character assessments and armchair psychoanalysis. (Which I suppose is my own armchair psychoanalysis.)
My suggestion is simply to keep your relationship on a more professional level, keep your head down, and only worry about her character when it affects your work.
You don't actually get along as friends, you don't need to socialize outside of work if it can be avoided.
posted by champers at 4:05 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
If a random amateur parachuted in and assessed my child, I'd consider it very inappropriate.
Maybe that makes me old school, or perhaps I'm "guarded" too. So be it, don't explain my kid to me if I haven't asked for your opinion.
You're engaging in psychoanalysis of your boss, too, which is another blurring of boundaries.
All in all, you're thrown together by circumstances, but I don't think y'all like each other. So you try to rationalize it all away with character assessments and armchair psychoanalysis. (Which I suppose is my own armchair psychoanalysis.)
My suggestion is simply to keep your relationship on a more professional level, keep your head down, and only worry about her character when it affects your work.
You don't actually get along as friends, you don't need to socialize outside of work if it can be avoided.
posted by champers at 4:05 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Honestly, I would shrug off that comment. Even if it’s true, it doesn’t have to be read as negative. The fact that you’re having a big reaction to it, though, it’s pretty valuable information for you about … something. That’s worth exploring.
posted by spindrifter at 5:06 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 5:06 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It sounds like what was unpleasant about the interaction was the way that your boss, without any real reasonable context, presented you and your other friend with an assessment that she had made based on an encounter when she was in your home and interacting with you and your family. To me, this is very rude behavior (unless of course that is a thing that is commonly engaged in between the two of you, but that is clearly not the case here). The extra twist is that the label she gave you and your son was “guarded,” which is precisely how I would feel in response to her intrusive assessing comment!
So, how do you feel better about it? One thought is to consider that she may have labeled you as guarded because that is an experience that she may have with many people in her life, in part because she has personality qualities (which you’ve described above) that may cause others to withdraw in a way that she perceives as guarded. Maybe she sensed you pulling away and wanted to call on the closeness/intimacy present when she was in your home by pulling out “insider” information about your son (the mugging). Or maybe she wanted to signal to the other friend present that the two of you are close. As champers says above, all of this would be armchair psychoanalysis …I’m offering them as ideas in case some of it resonates and perhaps that may shift your relationship to those kinds of comments from her.
The bottom line though is that it depends on what kind of relationship you want to have with your boss. It’s difficult to tell from your question - you note yourself that you are not sure why you decided to socialize with her. Maybe taking some time away from this specific scenario to consider really what you want could be a fruitful place to start?
posted by dreamphone at 5:57 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, how do you feel better about it? One thought is to consider that she may have labeled you as guarded because that is an experience that she may have with many people in her life, in part because she has personality qualities (which you’ve described above) that may cause others to withdraw in a way that she perceives as guarded. Maybe she sensed you pulling away and wanted to call on the closeness/intimacy present when she was in your home by pulling out “insider” information about your son (the mugging). Or maybe she wanted to signal to the other friend present that the two of you are close. As champers says above, all of this would be armchair psychoanalysis …I’m offering them as ideas in case some of it resonates and perhaps that may shift your relationship to those kinds of comments from her.
The bottom line though is that it depends on what kind of relationship you want to have with your boss. It’s difficult to tell from your question - you note yourself that you are not sure why you decided to socialize with her. Maybe taking some time away from this specific scenario to consider really what you want could be a fruitful place to start?
posted by dreamphone at 5:57 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I looked through your past questions and you say that you're bored by your job, underpaid, and have political differences with your coworkers that you feel you must repress. All of these problems involve... your boss.
If this was your dream job, maybe this one comment would be a little annoying or odd, but you could laugh it off. But I think the job itself is a poor fit and has been for a while and therefore this comment is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Your anger doesn't just reflect the importance of the comment, but all the other frustrations you feel.
Have you thought about trying for a new job?
posted by kingdead at 5:58 AM on April 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
If this was your dream job, maybe this one comment would be a little annoying or odd, but you could laugh it off. But I think the job itself is a poor fit and has been for a while and therefore this comment is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Your anger doesn't just reflect the importance of the comment, but all the other frustrations you feel.
Have you thought about trying for a new job?
posted by kingdead at 5:58 AM on April 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Bro this is weird. "Guarded" is not an insulting thing to say about someone, certainly not to the point where you "hate" the person who said it. Frankly, it's appropriate to be guarded at work!! I would interpret this as "an outsider has noticed that people in my family have strong boundaries", because that's what "guarded" means. It's weird that she's commenting on your son's personality at all, obviously, and it seems like she could stand to be a lot more guarded, but hating her forever over a pretty benign analysis is an extreme response.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 9:19 AM on April 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by goodbyewaffles at 9:19 AM on April 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for reading my question and for all of the responses and advice. I wanted to know if I was reacting disproportionally. I still think it was a weird and unkind thing to say but I'm getting over it. And yes, there are other factors at play -- my sensitivity to being assessed or judged. My history with my boss and the fact that I find her intolerable most of the time. And yes, I've complained about my workplace before.
I can be an indecisive, second-guessing person. I often wonder if my reactions, thoughts or feelings are overblown. I often feel unsure and this is why I appreciate this collection of responses. They've reminded me that I can handle myself better in the future by having better boundaries. It's also interesting how many believe guarded to be non-pejorative. Thank you.
posted by loveandhappiness at 11:54 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can be an indecisive, second-guessing person. I often wonder if my reactions, thoughts or feelings are overblown. I often feel unsure and this is why I appreciate this collection of responses. They've reminded me that I can handle myself better in the future by having better boundaries. It's also interesting how many believe guarded to be non-pejorative. Thank you.
posted by loveandhappiness at 11:54 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can be an indecisive, second-guessing person. I often wonder if my reactions, thoughts or feelings are overblown.
Sometimes what can happen when we do that is that we don't allow ourselves to have our "natural" reaction to the small things, and so they build up and build up and build up, and then one small thing can release our built-up reactions to everything we've been holding back. So it feels disproportionate if we see it as a reaction to the individual action, but if we step back a bit, we can see it's a normal response to the larger situation. It can be helpful to realize that we're allowed to react to small stuff, too, to say, "Hey, that's not ok." It can help keep it from turning into the straw that broke the camel's back, which is what this sounds like.
It can also be useful to recognize that if everything is starting to feel like that back-breaking straw and the relationship can't be changed, then it may be time to step away entirely from the situation.
posted by lapis at 12:38 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sometimes what can happen when we do that is that we don't allow ourselves to have our "natural" reaction to the small things, and so they build up and build up and build up, and then one small thing can release our built-up reactions to everything we've been holding back. So it feels disproportionate if we see it as a reaction to the individual action, but if we step back a bit, we can see it's a normal response to the larger situation. It can be helpful to realize that we're allowed to react to small stuff, too, to say, "Hey, that's not ok." It can help keep it from turning into the straw that broke the camel's back, which is what this sounds like.
It can also be useful to recognize that if everything is starting to feel like that back-breaking straw and the relationship can't be changed, then it may be time to step away entirely from the situation.
posted by lapis at 12:38 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
My best suggestion is to look at whether your relationship with your boss and workplace is working in general rather than terms of this specific issue.
posted by Candleman at 1:35 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Candleman at 1:35 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Goodness gracious. Being "guarded" is GOOD! Especially in interactions with your boss in a personal environment, and even if you're friends. The person is still your boss.
posted by nkknkk at 2:11 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by nkknkk at 2:11 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Alternate take: Newly socializing with the former coworker, Boss commenting on your son's reserve signaled that she's met your kids, visited your home, and has a personal (not just professional), connection.
Subsequent commentary on your similarity to your son continued that signaling, OR attempted to give the head's up to friendly former coworker that any perceived standoffishness is an unexceptional family trait. (OR, much less charitably, Boss is working to edge you out of the nascent trio.)
Same advice applies: distance yourself from Boss personally (make separate plans with former coworker) and professionally (seek new job).
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Subsequent commentary on your similarity to your son continued that signaling, OR attempted to give the head's up to friendly former coworker that any perceived standoffishness is an unexceptional family trait. (OR, much less charitably, Boss is working to edge you out of the nascent trio.)
Same advice applies: distance yourself from Boss personally (make separate plans with former coworker) and professionally (seek new job).
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like many others have already commented, I don't necessarily view "guarded" as a negative character trait at face value; however it certainly comes across an overly personal and judgy. I'd be weirded out in your situation too.
The person you describe sounds like, trait for trait, a person I used to have to work with... the main reason I prioritized finding a new job as soon as I could.
Things are MUCH better now :)
posted by wats at 7:47 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The person you describe sounds like, trait for trait, a person I used to have to work with... the main reason I prioritized finding a new job as soon as I could.
Things are MUCH better now :)
posted by wats at 7:47 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s not even whether people feel like the term ‘guarded’ is an insult or not. It’s the fact that your boss felt the need to give her opinion and cast judgement of the two of you, completely unasked for. And I tell you what, if you weren’t guarded around her before, I definitely would start to be now.
It sounds like you’ve already made that decision but yep, I wouldn’t be socialising and I’d keep your interactions with her completely civil and professional - but that’s it.
It sounds like this woman has been rubbing you up the wrong way for years though and this is just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
posted by Jubey at 9:42 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you’ve already made that decision but yep, I wouldn’t be socialising and I’d keep your interactions with her completely civil and professional - but that’s it.
It sounds like this woman has been rubbing you up the wrong way for years though and this is just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
posted by Jubey at 9:42 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Two words: power differential.
If you accept your job and position, then you accept that there is this power differential. If you do not like this, then you need to change it.
posted by itsflyable at 10:10 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you accept your job and position, then you accept that there is this power differential. If you do not like this, then you need to change it.
posted by itsflyable at 10:10 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of course you're guarded, she's your boss and can never not be. As much as she wants to be BFFs and "take the boss hat off" away from work, every manager of people finds out eventually that you can't. Not "shouldn't", which is also true, but it's just not even possible.
She sounds lonely for real friends, is what I get out of that. She's trying to tell you that, which in a way is a compliment; she wishes you could be her real friend. But it can never be you and your family in a satisfying enough way for her while she's your boss at work.
posted by ctmf at 5:33 PM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
She sounds lonely for real friends, is what I get out of that. She's trying to tell you that, which in a way is a compliment; she wishes you could be her real friend. But it can never be you and your family in a satisfying enough way for her while she's your boss at work.
posted by ctmf at 5:33 PM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
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