How to Bao?

November 7, 2022 8:14 AM

I've been enjoying making bao from scratch. The fillings are no problem, the end product is decent, but I have yet to get the pillowy fluffiness that I'd like. Can you give me some specific help on that?

I got this handwritten/low detail recipe from an acquaintance online. I've done it with a 4 hour rise, and also doubled the yeast and done two hours. I've kneaded it a decent amount, and also not much (this affected the final product less than I'd have thought). Looking around online, I see many recipes that only call to rise for an hour, and even one that added baking powder and had no rise. But overall, it seems there's also no major outliers in the recipe I've been using. After some 4-5 tries, they are good and worth making but they all lack the soft delicate texture that I was hoping for. They aren't exactly tough or anything, just denser and firmer than I'd like.

Here are some of ideas of what I might try to fiddle with to improve, but rather than make several more batches of experimental bao, I was hoping y'all could help me cut to the fluffy chase.

1. This recipe calls for only 40-60 min rise, but specifies a full 15 min kneading, then a second 5 min kneading after rising "to get the air bubbles out". This seems counterintuitive to me but maybe worth a try?

2. Maybe my all-purpose flour is too glutony or something and I need a different type of flour?

3. I got fresh yeast after a sketchy try with old yeast, but maybe I just need more/better yeast or more rise time (it's autumn here and my house is cool). I did do rising in a lightly warmed oven and it did get plenty of volume.

4. Someone mentioned punching it down and a quick fold every 30 min during the 4 hour rise. She also said hers aren't as fluffy as she'd like either so maybe not a silver bullet but maybe helpful?

5. Something is off with my steaming technique? I use a 2-layer bamboo steamer set in a large steel pan with about 1" of water. Some methods specify starting from cold water, which I haven't tried yet. Others say to make sure you let them stand for 5 min before opening the steamer, which I have done. When I get frozen bao I steam the hell out them with out paying much attention to time or anything and they come out fluffy enough, so this seems like not my main problem, but maybe?

Overall, I'm a pretty good cook but don't have much experience with baking so I'm sure there's lots of other small details I'm missing. Also if you have any vegetarian fillings you'd like to share those are also appreciated. So far I've done red bean, Taiwan spinach with mushroom, tvp, five spice, and a jackfruit with white pepper, ginger and hoisin. Those are all easy and fun, I make extra and save the rest in ice cube trays, they goal is to have a handful of pre-made and pre-portioned fillings in freezer bags to give me a good selection and then I only have to make the dough the day of eating.

Thanks for any suggestions!

posted by SaltySalticid to Food & Drink (10 answers total)

You might try the tangzhong method to get started (you cook some of the flour in milk to get started) - it’s a key for pillowy fluffy crumb.
posted by janell at 8:40 AM on November 7, 2022 [5 favorites]

Best answer: Wonder if this comparison of different flour types when making bao would be helpful to you? The video describes some adjustments to make when using Western all-purpose flour.

This is their bao recipe (has meat filling) and they do emphasize getting all the air bubbles out after the initial rise.
posted by needled at 8:55 AM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]

Best answer: Instead of using all purpose flour, try using cake flour (often sold in boxes in US stores) or cake + AP flour in a 50/50 blend. Bao, especially the BBQ ones, have very little gluten development which is why they're so soft, so you need to give lower gluten flour blends a try.
posted by A Blue Moon at 10:08 AM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]

My vague memory is that restaurants & bakeries use a particular ingredient that makes the dough extra fluffy, but that is hard for home bakers to get hold of. I can't find a mention of it when I search, though.

This guy seems to have a pretty comprehensive explainer, including a troubleshooting guide at the bottom. He explains the tangzhong method cited by janell above.
posted by Pallas Athena at 10:13 AM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]

Depending where you live and where you get your all-purpose flour, it could actually be fairly high-gluten. Lower-gluten flour is the way to go if you desire fluffy soft bao. Many Asian groceries sell bao flour specifically for this purpose -- it's worth trying! The link Pallas Athena shared above has some other options if you can't find the bao flour.

And about the second kneading after the rise (also called "degassing")-- this is important for getting the even fluffy texture you want. If you skip degassing, you're likely to get big air pockets in the final bao. Degassing helps encourage even, small bubbles for uniformly fluffy texture in the finished bao.
posted by ourobouros at 3:51 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]

The cookbook All Under Heaven suggests 2 parts US unbleached all-purpose to 1 part unbleached pastry flour, to substitute for Chinese or Korean flour.
posted by clew at 6:41 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Regarding point 1, that makes a lot of sense to me. You push the air out so that when you steam it new, smaller bubbles form. In my experience the dough rises significantly while cooking.
Regarding point 5, this also makes sense to me. When I have a spot on my bao where the dough is too thin, it will collapse there into the filling if I open the lid too quickly.

My recipe for bao dough isn't the same as yours, so I offer it in case you want to try something different. I find it soft and nice. It is more bread-like than the denser bao I grew up with.

Bao dough recipe
4 tbsp white sugar
1 cup lukewarm water
1½ tsp dried yeast
3 1/2 cups cake flour
3 tsp baking powder
2 tbsp vegetable oil
½ tsp rice vinegar
in a large bowl (stand mixer if you have) mix sugar, water and yeast together and let stand for 5 to 15 min
add flour, baking powder, oil and rice vinegar and knead by hand for 15 min, or use a dough hook for 5 min until the dough is well mixed and feels stretchy
let dough rise for 90 min then punch it down
let it rise again for 60 min
make buns and place each on a square of parchment paper
steam for 13-15 min depending on the size
bao will expand significantly while steaming
posted by keeo at 7:13 PM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks all, great info! I will be working through all these tips, perhaps first I'll just grab some specific bao flour since I have a nice Chinese market nearby, but really interesting to see the visual demonstration of how the western all-purpose floor develops longer/stronger gluten chains. I really appreciate the personalized input, this is what makes AskMe so great :)
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:58 AM on November 8, 2022

I've made this bao recipe 5 or 6 times and it's amazing. The absolute platonic ideal of a fluffy, pillowy baked bun. After my first go I updated the filling so that it relied a bit less on 5 spice flavor as it's not my personal favorite. But, this is a killer recipe and very helpful to have the video to show off some of the technique.
posted by ssmith at 9:56 AM on November 8, 2022 [2 favorites]

I haven't yet made her bao, but I have been really impressed with the recipes I have tried from Mooncakes and Milk Bread by Kristina Cho so it's probably worth a look.
posted by tangosnail at 1:31 PM on November 9, 2022