Is this the trauma Olympics and can I forfeit?
October 22, 2022 9:53 PM Subscribe
TWs: abuse, CSA, disordered eating
For reasons this Ask may illuminate, I have a generally very close relationship with most of my spouse's family of origin. But I am struggling with encounters that involve one of my sisters-in-law, who has a tendency to make references in conversation to having a "traumatic" and difficult childhood.
I could use some advice on whether and how to respond, because I feel like I'm starting to crack.
Every time this happens, I start ruminating on very painful memories and what seems like an unhealthy surge of...quasi-competitiveness, plus deep offense on behalf of my mother- and father-in-law.
SIL had an eating disorder as a teenager, and had been in recovery since. I am sure that her relationship with her own parents is different than mine, and I have no doubt that no childhood is without its troubles. But by all accounts -- and my in-laws have all been to therapy with SIL (at her behest) where it seems any major caveats to this would have been discussed -- SIL and spouse both had a comfortable, middle-class childhood with a stable family life, supportive and loving parents, and plenty of play.
I did not grow up against this kind of backdrop. I am a survivor of CSA and was raised by a physically and emotionally abusive parent who could not hold a job. Getting food consistently was a problem for part of my childhood, which led me to binge-eat in my adolescence and I suspect may make me particularly touchy around the subject of my SIL's ED.
My in-laws (including SIL) know the broad strokes of my background, and I almost feel like my SIL is increasing or emphasizing these comments in my presence -- whether to offer empathy/bonding or prod for details, I cannot tell. My MIL looks obviously uncomfortable when SIL mentions her childhood trauma, responsibility for which I sense SIL lays at MIL's feet for reasons unclear to everyone except SIL. Privately, MIL says that it's "just how it's been with [SIL]."
I do not necessarily want SIL in particular to have more specifics about my own history, but I cannot stand being reminded of the worst parts of my life when I am trying to enjoy time with my chosen family. It hurts to see my MIL hear how difficult my SIL views her childhood -- I would consider myself to have broken a terrible cycle if I am half as good a parent as it appears my MIL has been.
Yet...I also don't want to invalidate my SIL's experiences, it's possible my "healthy family" meter is borked, and I fully realize that trauma is subjective. Is there a response I can make that doesn't seem like grandstanding about who had the worst time of it, or a different way I could try thinking about things? Or is it inappropriate for me to say anything? Spouse is all too willing to intervene, but they are of the opinion that SIL is "being dramatic," which makes me concerned. SIL is well past TikTok's prime demographic, and I think has a nuanced understanding of the word trauma when she uses it.
Every time this happens, I start ruminating on very painful memories and what seems like an unhealthy surge of...quasi-competitiveness, plus deep offense on behalf of my mother- and father-in-law.
SIL had an eating disorder as a teenager, and had been in recovery since. I am sure that her relationship with her own parents is different than mine, and I have no doubt that no childhood is without its troubles. But by all accounts -- and my in-laws have all been to therapy with SIL (at her behest) where it seems any major caveats to this would have been discussed -- SIL and spouse both had a comfortable, middle-class childhood with a stable family life, supportive and loving parents, and plenty of play.
I did not grow up against this kind of backdrop. I am a survivor of CSA and was raised by a physically and emotionally abusive parent who could not hold a job. Getting food consistently was a problem for part of my childhood, which led me to binge-eat in my adolescence and I suspect may make me particularly touchy around the subject of my SIL's ED.
My in-laws (including SIL) know the broad strokes of my background, and I almost feel like my SIL is increasing or emphasizing these comments in my presence -- whether to offer empathy/bonding or prod for details, I cannot tell. My MIL looks obviously uncomfortable when SIL mentions her childhood trauma, responsibility for which I sense SIL lays at MIL's feet for reasons unclear to everyone except SIL. Privately, MIL says that it's "just how it's been with [SIL]."
I do not necessarily want SIL in particular to have more specifics about my own history, but I cannot stand being reminded of the worst parts of my life when I am trying to enjoy time with my chosen family. It hurts to see my MIL hear how difficult my SIL views her childhood -- I would consider myself to have broken a terrible cycle if I am half as good a parent as it appears my MIL has been.
Yet...I also don't want to invalidate my SIL's experiences, it's possible my "healthy family" meter is borked, and I fully realize that trauma is subjective. Is there a response I can make that doesn't seem like grandstanding about who had the worst time of it, or a different way I could try thinking about things? Or is it inappropriate for me to say anything? Spouse is all too willing to intervene, but they are of the opinion that SIL is "being dramatic," which makes me concerned. SIL is well past TikTok's prime demographic, and I think has a nuanced understanding of the word trauma when she uses it.
Breaking the cycle also means breaking the cycle of silence. In this case, you are silent about your own needs - not to be constantly reminded - to keep family peace. If you are perceiving this as a bid for bonding, you can respond *without offering more about your trauma* but still acknowledging the bid. Maybe give the inlaws and your spouse a heads up that the next time it comes up that you are going to have a heart to heart with SIL. That might look like “I feel tense when I know we’re going to be together because I’m on guard with my emotional walls up. I’m not in a place where it’s healthy for me to be engaging with my own trauma at the frequency with which it’s coming up for me. I feel really impressed that you are approaching your own trauma so openly, and I’m wondering if there’s a way we can meet both our needs on this. I don’t want you to feel stifled, but my own trauma keeps getting triggered and I’m having a rough time with my own eating disorder recovery because of how often this is coming up.”
Meet her vulnerability with a level of trust and truth and vulnerability on your own part. See if you can set some boundaries together around having some family time that isn’t emotionally charged in this way. I suspect that she may be somewhat covertly trying to get more details about your past and is doing it in this way because it feels more polite than just asking. If you politely let her know that you aren’t going to share at this time and don’t want to be reminded, I think it could work. Especially if you are coming from a place of building connection instead of frustration. It might blow up, but frankly - again - whose peace are you keeping and at what cost to yourself? All you can do is state your truth as kindly and gently as possible. You can’t control the reaction. And yes, this will be some emotional labor on your part, but hopefully it stops the constant emotional drain.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:24 AM on October 23, 2022 [22 favorites]
Meet her vulnerability with a level of trust and truth and vulnerability on your own part. See if you can set some boundaries together around having some family time that isn’t emotionally charged in this way. I suspect that she may be somewhat covertly trying to get more details about your past and is doing it in this way because it feels more polite than just asking. If you politely let her know that you aren’t going to share at this time and don’t want to be reminded, I think it could work. Especially if you are coming from a place of building connection instead of frustration. It might blow up, but frankly - again - whose peace are you keeping and at what cost to yourself? All you can do is state your truth as kindly and gently as possible. You can’t control the reaction. And yes, this will be some emotional labor on your part, but hopefully it stops the constant emotional drain.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:24 AM on October 23, 2022 [22 favorites]
You can have experienced trauma as a child and it can be unrelated to your parents. I am like this myself - my parents are wonderful and my childhood and teen years were bordering on ideal, but circumstances beyond their control means I’m still working through shit I endured in my own mind as a kid. My parents have expressed deep regret that they didn’t know things were going on with me, or that they had no idea how to help, and it’s only semi recently that I’ve managed to communicate that since I didn’t have the words for it, how could I expect them to have magically known? This is all not to invalidate you, just to point out that when someone is bringing up difficulties they had as a minor it isn’t automatically a reflection on their parents. So even if that isn’t the case with your SIL, as you have other interactions of this type try to keep it in mind.
Some people, myself included, like to try to de-stigmatize topics by bringing them up freely. But I’ve learned to somewhat read the room. Your SIL might have trouble doing that. I think it would be entirely appropriate for your spouse to speak to her privately and ask her to cut it out, not because she can’t speak up about her life, but because it’s a conflicting need with you. It’s completely normal for groups of people to have competing needs like this, and peacefully coming to a compromise is a sign of healthy communication and boundaries. I think it would also be okay if next time she starts with her trauma topics, you said something like “this sounds like something to talk about with your therapist, SIL, sorry. Can we talk about [insert neutral topic that is of interest to SIL] instead?” This is assuming she still has a therapist, and it sounds like she should.
posted by Mizu at 2:18 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Some people, myself included, like to try to de-stigmatize topics by bringing them up freely. But I’ve learned to somewhat read the room. Your SIL might have trouble doing that. I think it would be entirely appropriate for your spouse to speak to her privately and ask her to cut it out, not because she can’t speak up about her life, but because it’s a conflicting need with you. It’s completely normal for groups of people to have competing needs like this, and peacefully coming to a compromise is a sign of healthy communication and boundaries. I think it would also be okay if next time she starts with her trauma topics, you said something like “this sounds like something to talk about with your therapist, SIL, sorry. Can we talk about [insert neutral topic that is of interest to SIL] instead?” This is assuming she still has a therapist, and it sounds like she should.
posted by Mizu at 2:18 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
First of all, I'm so sorry for everything you went through.
I think there are a lot of complex, competing needs here.
I think on some level you might be idealizing the childhood SIL had, when perhaps it wasn't as stable or loving as you might think.
There's your spouse referring to her as "dramatic." You're right to notice it.
It's possible SIL has a lifetime of her emotions and needs being pushed aside and treated as "drama." It's left her feeling invalidated and like nothing is real.
She could be reaching to you as a relative outsider because she needs somebody to tell her she matters and the things that happen count for something.
But it's a load you can't carry, and that's completely valid.
I wouldn't involve your spouse or other family members if you can avoid it. Instead, can you talk to her respectfully and directly?
Just let her know that you acknowledge everything she's gone through, but because of your own history you need to focus on other ways of bonding. Then seek out things you have in common.
posted by champers at 3:17 AM on October 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think there are a lot of complex, competing needs here.
I think on some level you might be idealizing the childhood SIL had, when perhaps it wasn't as stable or loving as you might think.
There's your spouse referring to her as "dramatic." You're right to notice it.
It's possible SIL has a lifetime of her emotions and needs being pushed aside and treated as "drama." It's left her feeling invalidated and like nothing is real.
She could be reaching to you as a relative outsider because she needs somebody to tell her she matters and the things that happen count for something.
But it's a load you can't carry, and that's completely valid.
I wouldn't involve your spouse or other family members if you can avoid it. Instead, can you talk to her respectfully and directly?
Just let her know that you acknowledge everything she's gone through, but because of your own history you need to focus on other ways of bonding. Then seek out things you have in common.
posted by champers at 3:17 AM on October 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
I get your feelings.
For me, the best thing to do is let it go and give whoever it is a warm response related to their feelings. This is more for me than for them because I’m retraining my brain on what should happen when people are in pain - care, support, community. This is what should have happened to me, not worse trauma for being disbelieved etc. (your MIL is modelling this too.)
The discussion in your head that is measuring and judging your SIL on this is a complex one. As a child I remember talking myself out of bed after being assaulted the night before by reminding myself that starving children in Africa (sorry, this was the 70s) couldn’t even go to school. So that voice is a part of my inner strength. But it’s also really awful to people, or at least - overblown. It is not My place to judge peoples pain…but also every time I do I feel like I end up invalidating my own.
So…I suspect this issue is two-pronged. One is, your SIL brings it up and get parents continue to love her and give her support. That puts it right in your face that your family was different - and that is extremely painful. Two, she may be doing it a lot which is a bit of a boundary thing.
I agree with the radical honesty approach above. But if that’s not you, I suggest you say something simple to her but then do the same for yourself.
I suggest something simple like “that was so hard for you, it makes me sad on your behalf. It’s reminding me of bad times in my own life, so I think I’m going to go get tea/go for a short walk/ go downstairs and read for a bit.” Then you have to reinforce your own boundaries there.
Also you deserve that care too.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [26 favorites]
For me, the best thing to do is let it go and give whoever it is a warm response related to their feelings. This is more for me than for them because I’m retraining my brain on what should happen when people are in pain - care, support, community. This is what should have happened to me, not worse trauma for being disbelieved etc. (your MIL is modelling this too.)
The discussion in your head that is measuring and judging your SIL on this is a complex one. As a child I remember talking myself out of bed after being assaulted the night before by reminding myself that starving children in Africa (sorry, this was the 70s) couldn’t even go to school. So that voice is a part of my inner strength. But it’s also really awful to people, or at least - overblown. It is not My place to judge peoples pain…but also every time I do I feel like I end up invalidating my own.
So…I suspect this issue is two-pronged. One is, your SIL brings it up and get parents continue to love her and give her support. That puts it right in your face that your family was different - and that is extremely painful. Two, she may be doing it a lot which is a bit of a boundary thing.
I agree with the radical honesty approach above. But if that’s not you, I suggest you say something simple to her but then do the same for yourself.
I suggest something simple like “that was so hard for you, it makes me sad on your behalf. It’s reminding me of bad times in my own life, so I think I’m going to go get tea/go for a short walk/ go downstairs and read for a bit.” Then you have to reinforce your own boundaries there.
Also you deserve that care too.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [26 favorites]
I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I would find it really hard too. What your account brings up, for me, is that when you are dealing with hard stuff in your past, you don't necessarily want to be dealing with it 24/7-- even if it is in the form of discussing someone else's roughly analogous experiences. That goes double when you are in a social situation involving in-laws which, even if you love them to pieces, is often not quite comfortable. It's one of the reasons we go to therapy, to have a space to talk about this stuff and, crucially, to have the hour come to an end so we can move on for the time being. (Sorry if it's presumptuous when I say "we;" I don't know the details of your situation.) With an in-law who was doing this, I would be tempted to ask something like, "What can I do to support you?" with heavy emphasis on "I" and "do." It's hard for you to be reminded of your experiences so you're not the friend who does that; you're the one who does something else.
posted by BibiRose at 5:57 AM on October 23, 2022
posted by BibiRose at 5:57 AM on October 23, 2022
You are allowed to say "please don't talk to me about that, I find it very distressing because of my own past trauma."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:21 AM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:21 AM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
I love warriorqueens answer because it's kind, supportive for her, honest, and supportive for you, too. As for framing: it sounds like you had horrible adults in your life who caused trauma in your childhood, and SIL had loving, supportive parents who tried their best and still caused trauma in her childhood. Those are both common trauma scenarios and don't really have anything to do with each other, just like your own trauma isn't lessened by, for example, the fact that you perhaps went through a childhood absent war or physical disability. For both of you, I hope you can express your needs and that your SIL can hear them.
posted by Ausamor at 8:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 8:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
A different way of thinking about it is "She must have had a really hard time. Me too."
posted by bleep at 8:18 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:18 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Working through trauma/difficult life experiences doesn’t have to mean rehearsing those feelings by talking about them. Perhaps your SIL might try other methods—writing, doing an audio interview with herself, group/12 step, etc.. In any case, you don’t have to be an audience.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:51 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 8:51 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can't claim that my way of taking on this issue was the most sensitive or kind or even fair to the person in question (I continue to believe it was fair for everyone else in the room), but I also think for her it had become a sort of verbal tic. So in one of these record-scratch moments:
My MIL looks obviously uncomfortable when SIL mentions her childhood trauma
I turned to her and said, "I'm sorry, I wish I knew the right way to validate you when you bring this up. Is there a way that we can support you so that it doesn't need to come up tangentially in conversation so much? As you know, I have some history of my own and this is very triggering, and can we find a way to navigate this where we can both be more comfortable?"
I'm really sensitive to other people trauma-dumping on me, because I have become so cautious not to do it myself. And I have known people who came to do it habitually - for some it seemed to be a defense mechanism, for others it was really almost begging for validation that they didn't know how to ask for in an appropriate way (and had no access to therapy, this was really all they had), and for some it seemed to have become a sort of verbal tic so that they barely even heard themself do it or realized how frequent it was.
There's a time and place to bring it up, and consent should be involved. You may not be wrong that this is a way to specifically make you uncomfortable, much as it is deployed to keep her mother uncomfortable, maybe to make sure you can't ever quite have nice things. She may resent what she imagines is a trouble-free relationship between you and her mother. It may even be triggering for her. IF SO, the solution to that is not making y'all uncomfortable and pushback is appropriate.
It is probably worth encouraging your husband to learn something about trauma, since you have your own share and he seems to have variable empathy. My go-to rec is Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, which I think is a useful book for a partner or brother. "Being dramatic" is thinly-veiled misogyny for one thing, it's super dismissive for another, and I think him treating his sister that way is also unfair to you and is part of what establishes that Trauma Olympics feeling. It may very well be that she is making a bid for her brother in particular to respect her situation as much as he respects yours. Like, he doesn't absolutely have to agree that whatever she went through was "that bad" (ugh), and if he did so he might have to dig into his own shit because unless they have a giant age gap he must have been there for whatever went on, but for whatever reason her brain and body registered it as traumatic and that's what matters.
I don't know if it is useful for you to frame it in that context as well. Whatever actually happened, her brain and body reacted to one event or a series of events as trauma. Maybe the trauma was/is simply "poor mental health" and parental love can't take the place of appropriate family and educational intervention (in a timeframe, I'm roughly guessing, where those things were feasible with a sharp and aggressive enough family/school system and money, but plenty of kids still fell through the cracks if they didn't have a glaringly obvious learning disability or weren't a boy with ADHD). And not all poor mental health is fully treatable or manageable; it kind of seems like she may be wrestling with a lifelong condition.
That still doesn't mean she gets to trauma-fart to reclaim the room every time things are not about her. You do get to express a need for for your own safer space and ask for a reasonable de-escalation from another adult. If there is something specific she is trying to get from you or anybody else in the room, she can use words to ask for them just like you will have done.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:23 AM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
My MIL looks obviously uncomfortable when SIL mentions her childhood trauma
I turned to her and said, "I'm sorry, I wish I knew the right way to validate you when you bring this up. Is there a way that we can support you so that it doesn't need to come up tangentially in conversation so much? As you know, I have some history of my own and this is very triggering, and can we find a way to navigate this where we can both be more comfortable?"
I'm really sensitive to other people trauma-dumping on me, because I have become so cautious not to do it myself. And I have known people who came to do it habitually - for some it seemed to be a defense mechanism, for others it was really almost begging for validation that they didn't know how to ask for in an appropriate way (and had no access to therapy, this was really all they had), and for some it seemed to have become a sort of verbal tic so that they barely even heard themself do it or realized how frequent it was.
There's a time and place to bring it up, and consent should be involved. You may not be wrong that this is a way to specifically make you uncomfortable, much as it is deployed to keep her mother uncomfortable, maybe to make sure you can't ever quite have nice things. She may resent what she imagines is a trouble-free relationship between you and her mother. It may even be triggering for her. IF SO, the solution to that is not making y'all uncomfortable and pushback is appropriate.
It is probably worth encouraging your husband to learn something about trauma, since you have your own share and he seems to have variable empathy. My go-to rec is Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, which I think is a useful book for a partner or brother. "Being dramatic" is thinly-veiled misogyny for one thing, it's super dismissive for another, and I think him treating his sister that way is also unfair to you and is part of what establishes that Trauma Olympics feeling. It may very well be that she is making a bid for her brother in particular to respect her situation as much as he respects yours. Like, he doesn't absolutely have to agree that whatever she went through was "that bad" (ugh), and if he did so he might have to dig into his own shit because unless they have a giant age gap he must have been there for whatever went on, but for whatever reason her brain and body registered it as traumatic and that's what matters.
I don't know if it is useful for you to frame it in that context as well. Whatever actually happened, her brain and body reacted to one event or a series of events as trauma. Maybe the trauma was/is simply "poor mental health" and parental love can't take the place of appropriate family and educational intervention (in a timeframe, I'm roughly guessing, where those things were feasible with a sharp and aggressive enough family/school system and money, but plenty of kids still fell through the cracks if they didn't have a glaringly obvious learning disability or weren't a boy with ADHD). And not all poor mental health is fully treatable or manageable; it kind of seems like she may be wrestling with a lifelong condition.
That still doesn't mean she gets to trauma-fart to reclaim the room every time things are not about her. You do get to express a need for for your own safer space and ask for a reasonable de-escalation from another adult. If there is something specific she is trying to get from you or anybody else in the room, she can use words to ask for them just like you will have done.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:23 AM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's totally valid for you to not want to hear your SIL talk about trauma that she has experienced. However, it sounds like what's bothering you is not so much her "trauma dumping" but just the fact that she refers to her childhood as traumatic.
An experience of trauma is not determined by specific events. Someone could have experienced a relatively "lightly" painful event but be traumatized by it because at the time, they were not given the space to process it and their emotional needs were invalidated or neglected. Another person could have experienced what is usually thought of as "heavy" event, but not be traumatized by it ever because they received the support they needed and were able to work through it.
posted by bearette at 10:46 AM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
An experience of trauma is not determined by specific events. Someone could have experienced a relatively "lightly" painful event but be traumatized by it because at the time, they were not given the space to process it and their emotional needs were invalidated or neglected. Another person could have experienced what is usually thought of as "heavy" event, but not be traumatized by it ever because they received the support they needed and were able to work through it.
posted by bearette at 10:46 AM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
But by all accounts -- and my in-laws have all been to therapy with SIL (at her behest) where it seems any major caveats to this would have been discussed -- SIL and spouse both had a comfortable, middle-class childhood with a stable family life, supportive and loving parents, and plenty of play.
but no supportive and loving parents would have disclosed to you, or to anyone, the bad details. you are probably right to assume poverty and food insecurity were not part of her early life, but the other specific childhood trauma you mention absolutely could have been, and you cannot know. even if you are right about her parents, people from what used to be called "good homes" can be harmed by adults who are not their parents (or by peers) and frequently are.
you have every right to ask people not to discuss certain things with you because they distress you for reasons of your own that you yourself prefer not to disclose (though I think you should include the latter part when you say it, to avoid the implication that these issues are unmentionable in some broader sense. the increasingly widespread and incredibly ugly move of accusing people of "trauma dumping" is not something you need to embrace in order to seek a more comfortable atmosphere.) you do not under any circumstances have to explain why you can't tolerate the subject. but at the same time, there is no reason to believe that her ability and desire to talk about it publicly means she's telling all there is to tell.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:47 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
but no supportive and loving parents would have disclosed to you, or to anyone, the bad details. you are probably right to assume poverty and food insecurity were not part of her early life, but the other specific childhood trauma you mention absolutely could have been, and you cannot know. even if you are right about her parents, people from what used to be called "good homes" can be harmed by adults who are not their parents (or by peers) and frequently are.
you have every right to ask people not to discuss certain things with you because they distress you for reasons of your own that you yourself prefer not to disclose (though I think you should include the latter part when you say it, to avoid the implication that these issues are unmentionable in some broader sense. the increasingly widespread and incredibly ugly move of accusing people of "trauma dumping" is not something you need to embrace in order to seek a more comfortable atmosphere.) you do not under any circumstances have to explain why you can't tolerate the subject. but at the same time, there is no reason to believe that her ability and desire to talk about it publicly means she's telling all there is to tell.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:47 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Many many people can live through a seemingly well-adjusted, comfortable middle-class childhood in which they had food on the table and no overt signs of physical abuse and still be survivors of extreme psychological torture which creates horrific scars. In some sense the seeming normality of the upbringing makes it far worse because it adds layers of denial that have to be unpacked, and there is chorus of people saying things like 'what have you got to complain about'. The fact that she is known to have had an ED in teenage-hood is evidence enough that her life was sufficiently out of her own control that she had to restrict her food to the point of threatening her own life in order to assert some kind of agency. These are not the actions of someone who had an easy time.
What you may be witnessing in this house is a psychological battle between the daughter who is trying to assert the pain she has been put through and family system around her which has decided that this pain is not real and that she is the problem and the reason why the family is not perfect. In such situations, the main actors may try to manipulate and pull in outsiders to reinforce their agendas. The sister-in-law is perhaps trying to gain an ally in her fight for truth -- and the mother-in-law is perhaps trying to gain an ally in her fight to oppress her own daughter. The tension is not going to go away as long as the two of them are sharing a roof and the mother continues to say things like 'she's always been this way' rather than accept that her daughter's trauma is real and has very specific causes. i.e. her parents, and the mother's actions really support this because she is dismissive rather than empathetic about her daughter's suffering. In other words, the psychological torture is continuing right in front of you. Unfortunately, your spouse is also playing along by calling her 'dramatic'. But it is an accepted fact that she is recovering from an eating disorder, i.e. a life-threatening addiction to control over food, which is not dramatic but rather an extremely serious affliction which people don't just start doing for fun, as you well know. And I can say right now, a healthy good parent does not act dismissively towards a child discussing trauma and an eating disorder. And, it is not true that "by all accounts" she had a healthy childhood. One account differs - hers - and it is the only account that carries any weight.
I may be going out on a limb here but I think the anger you are feeling is actually the family's anger at her - your spouse's and your mother-in-law's and presumably the rest of the family system. It seems that because of your own family history and the fact that you married into this family you are invested in believing that this family is healthy, and that means buying into this family's values, and that also means accepting their viewpoint about your sister-in-law and feeling what they feel about her. To be blunt I think you are being used as a weapon against your sister-in-law here.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
What you may be witnessing in this house is a psychological battle between the daughter who is trying to assert the pain she has been put through and family system around her which has decided that this pain is not real and that she is the problem and the reason why the family is not perfect. In such situations, the main actors may try to manipulate and pull in outsiders to reinforce their agendas. The sister-in-law is perhaps trying to gain an ally in her fight for truth -- and the mother-in-law is perhaps trying to gain an ally in her fight to oppress her own daughter. The tension is not going to go away as long as the two of them are sharing a roof and the mother continues to say things like 'she's always been this way' rather than accept that her daughter's trauma is real and has very specific causes. i.e. her parents, and the mother's actions really support this because she is dismissive rather than empathetic about her daughter's suffering. In other words, the psychological torture is continuing right in front of you. Unfortunately, your spouse is also playing along by calling her 'dramatic'. But it is an accepted fact that she is recovering from an eating disorder, i.e. a life-threatening addiction to control over food, which is not dramatic but rather an extremely serious affliction which people don't just start doing for fun, as you well know. And I can say right now, a healthy good parent does not act dismissively towards a child discussing trauma and an eating disorder. And, it is not true that "by all accounts" she had a healthy childhood. One account differs - hers - and it is the only account that carries any weight.
I may be going out on a limb here but I think the anger you are feeling is actually the family's anger at her - your spouse's and your mother-in-law's and presumably the rest of the family system. It seems that because of your own family history and the fact that you married into this family you are invested in believing that this family is healthy, and that means buying into this family's values, and that also means accepting their viewpoint about your sister-in-law and feeling what they feel about her. To be blunt I think you are being used as a weapon against your sister-in-law here.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:22 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
It's compassion and limits for me.
Compassion:
For you, because you've been through these very hard things. Because now, in the present, you're trying to relate to your in-laws and encountering different narratives, possible gaslighting, and disagreement between people you respect. Not to mention topics that bring up memories in a way you'd rather minimize or find a better-feeling response to. I wonder whether there's also an unsettled question of: if my SIL says these things about my MIL, does that mean that my MIL is not a safe person for me, and that my ability to know who's safe or not safe is broken? which could be very hard to think about.
Compassion for your MIL, because she seems confused or hurt.
For your SIL, because she's had rough experiences to the point she's still feeling an urge to talk about them. I wonder whether she brings them up around you because she's aware of your trauma and feels safe to bring it up. Maybe it's an attempt to relate or get comfort. Or maybe your story reminds her of trauma generally on an unconscious level, so that's at the top of the pile when her mind is looking for topics in conversation.
Limits:
Your experience of your MIL and FIL can be your own. SIL may have had an awful time. It doesn't mean you will or that you have to find fault in them in order to relate to her. You don't have to choose sides. Your side is your side.
Your in-laws can have their own feelings about what your SIL says. I understand wanting to defend them but that's a relationship you're not part of. I wonder if you can notice how it feels for YOU to hear it, how that inner conflict impacts YOU, what you'd wish for YOURself in that moment, and keep it limited to that.
You don't have to listen to things that are causing you pain.
I do think it's worth a gentle informative conversation. If you don't want to get into the trauma and underscore that as "a thing you and SIL share in common and can discuss often" then I'd keep it the language general—as hard as it was for her to live it, some of that pain is landing on you in a sensitive way and you'd like to find a different way to be there for her. Like "Honey, I wish I could, but I can't. I need a light heart today. Let's talk about something else." "That's very sad. I respect that you went through it, but I can't hear any more."
If you're fine to talk about trauma explicitly, "Girl, you know I have trauma too, we of all people need to keep our mental health on track! So I have to keep a limit on how much I chat about hard childhood experiences. Here's what I'm ok with (insert here), everything else I'd like to be off the table. Although I won't be able to hear about these details going forward, I want you to know my heart is with you."
Some things to suggest: physical support like a hug, a more conceptual conversation that doesn't trigger you, phrases of support, distraction, her checking in with you about whether it's an ok time to start sharing, a dedicated time you both hold where this topic IS on the table (like maybe you only discuss at a certain table in a certain location)...
If you don't want to do any of that, don't offer! You can give her a heads up that if this topic comes up, you respect what she's dealing with but you'll need to step out. Consider practicing your exit phrases.
(I wouldn't necessarily expect someone who's in the midst of figuring out trauma to have consistent, "typical" conversational ways of bringing it up. That's part of the challenge they're dealing with.)
posted by rockyraccoon at 9:14 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Compassion:
For you, because you've been through these very hard things. Because now, in the present, you're trying to relate to your in-laws and encountering different narratives, possible gaslighting, and disagreement between people you respect. Not to mention topics that bring up memories in a way you'd rather minimize or find a better-feeling response to. I wonder whether there's also an unsettled question of: if my SIL says these things about my MIL, does that mean that my MIL is not a safe person for me, and that my ability to know who's safe or not safe is broken? which could be very hard to think about.
Compassion for your MIL, because she seems confused or hurt.
For your SIL, because she's had rough experiences to the point she's still feeling an urge to talk about them. I wonder whether she brings them up around you because she's aware of your trauma and feels safe to bring it up. Maybe it's an attempt to relate or get comfort. Or maybe your story reminds her of trauma generally on an unconscious level, so that's at the top of the pile when her mind is looking for topics in conversation.
Limits:
Your experience of your MIL and FIL can be your own. SIL may have had an awful time. It doesn't mean you will or that you have to find fault in them in order to relate to her. You don't have to choose sides. Your side is your side.
Your in-laws can have their own feelings about what your SIL says. I understand wanting to defend them but that's a relationship you're not part of. I wonder if you can notice how it feels for YOU to hear it, how that inner conflict impacts YOU, what you'd wish for YOURself in that moment, and keep it limited to that.
You don't have to listen to things that are causing you pain.
I do think it's worth a gentle informative conversation. If you don't want to get into the trauma and underscore that as "a thing you and SIL share in common and can discuss often" then I'd keep it the language general—as hard as it was for her to live it, some of that pain is landing on you in a sensitive way and you'd like to find a different way to be there for her. Like "Honey, I wish I could, but I can't. I need a light heart today. Let's talk about something else." "That's very sad. I respect that you went through it, but I can't hear any more."
If you're fine to talk about trauma explicitly, "Girl, you know I have trauma too, we of all people need to keep our mental health on track! So I have to keep a limit on how much I chat about hard childhood experiences. Here's what I'm ok with (insert here), everything else I'd like to be off the table. Although I won't be able to hear about these details going forward, I want you to know my heart is with you."
Some things to suggest: physical support like a hug, a more conceptual conversation that doesn't trigger you, phrases of support, distraction, her checking in with you about whether it's an ok time to start sharing, a dedicated time you both hold where this topic IS on the table (like maybe you only discuss at a certain table in a certain location)...
If you don't want to do any of that, don't offer! You can give her a heads up that if this topic comes up, you respect what she's dealing with but you'll need to step out. Consider practicing your exit phrases.
(I wouldn't necessarily expect someone who's in the midst of figuring out trauma to have consistent, "typical" conversational ways of bringing it up. That's part of the challenge they're dealing with.)
posted by rockyraccoon at 9:14 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this strikes me as a power play on SIL's part; your competition alarm is going off for a reason.
Folks who have been deeply traumatized are NOT that willing to bring it up in conversation as frequently as she apparently does.
I would stay silent and let your spouse do the intervening, and if he kind of belittles her publicly in doing so, it might be to the good. That sounds awful, but honestly I do not think her intentions are good.
SAY NOTHING to her privately or in public about your own experiences. She's feeding on your discomfort, to my eye.
Expect more drama for a while. It may be that you and spouse will need to visit with his parents without SIL present.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:03 AM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Folks who have been deeply traumatized are NOT that willing to bring it up in conversation as frequently as she apparently does.
I would stay silent and let your spouse do the intervening, and if he kind of belittles her publicly in doing so, it might be to the good. That sounds awful, but honestly I do not think her intentions are good.
SAY NOTHING to her privately or in public about your own experiences. She's feeding on your discomfort, to my eye.
Expect more drama for a while. It may be that you and spouse will need to visit with his parents without SIL present.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:03 AM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
“Folks who have been deeply traumatized are NOT that willing to bring it up in conversation as frequently as she apparently does.”
People react to trauma in many ways, and there’s no one way in which an actually traumatized person is.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:47 AM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
People react to trauma in many ways, and there’s no one way in which an actually traumatized person is.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:47 AM on October 24, 2022 [12 favorites]
Based on your description I am feeling less generous about SIL than other commenters. I would not offer support, or ask what you can do, or try to come to an understanding. What she wants is to talk about her trauma with or in front of you, and that's exactly what you don't want and why you asked this question. I think at some level she is trying to needle you. Healthy boundaries are what you need. I quite like warriorqueen's suggestion as a way to politely but firmly nope out of these conversations. Something along the lines of "I'm sorry I can't be more supportive. This topic brings up painful reminders of my own childhood and I'm going to get some air" and walk away. Yes, you can forfeit the trauma Olympics!
posted by emd3737 at 2:43 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 2:43 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Others have answered many aspects of this adeptly, so let me just take a little run at or a different way I could try thinking about things?
I'm disabled in such a way that in conversation, when people realize they're talking about their problems, they often hesitate and back up and say something like, "but it's nothing compared to what you deal with."
And my constant refrain to them in those situations is some variation on these:
- everybody's hardest thing is their hardest thing
- it's not a competition
- nobody wins gold in the Trauma Olympics
I truly believe those statements; I have a difficult combination, but there are lots of people out there who have other difficult combinations and don't have privileges I have.
Try one or more of those out and see how they feel.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:09 AM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm disabled in such a way that in conversation, when people realize they're talking about their problems, they often hesitate and back up and say something like, "but it's nothing compared to what you deal with."
And my constant refrain to them in those situations is some variation on these:
- everybody's hardest thing is their hardest thing
- it's not a competition
- nobody wins gold in the Trauma Olympics
I truly believe those statements; I have a difficult combination, but there are lots of people out there who have other difficult combinations and don't have privileges I have.
Try one or more of those out and see how they feel.
posted by jocelmeow at 8:09 AM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
you don't have to (shouldn't) offer support at your own serious expense. if you come to dislike her in spite of yourself, because of the distress associated with the things she talks about, you don't have to feel guilty for it. all you have to be is polite, and you can excuse yourself from conversations politely.
if you like her mother in spite of a nagging sense that you really shouldn't like her if what her daughter says and implies is true, don't fight it. you like who you like.
however.
you should not forget how easy it is for any parent to be well-liked, charming, kind, thoughtful to anyone and everyone who is not their own child. you should remember at all times that liking someone now does not mean they were, or are, a good mother then. liking someone does not mean they are telling the truth at all times. you should remember that people who did great unintentional - or intentional - harm to their own children and do not want to feel guilty about it reap enormous psychological benefits from proving to themselves, over and over again, how likable they are - how nice and grateful and easy other people's children are - how being liked by other people's children proves that their own children are overdramatic architects of their own difficulties in life. I am very sure that your awed admiration of her parenting abilities is a great pleasure to her. even if she's not a monster. and hard for your sister-in-law to take.
like who you like. don't feel bad about it. don't even worry about it. it is ok to like heavily imperfect people who are nice to you. just don't let your liking for your mother-in-law betray you into unwarranted trust and admiration and idealization. Like, but verify, some would say. but in your case I would say rather: like, but leave it at that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:04 PM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
if you like her mother in spite of a nagging sense that you really shouldn't like her if what her daughter says and implies is true, don't fight it. you like who you like.
however.
you should not forget how easy it is for any parent to be well-liked, charming, kind, thoughtful to anyone and everyone who is not their own child. you should remember at all times that liking someone now does not mean they were, or are, a good mother then. liking someone does not mean they are telling the truth at all times. you should remember that people who did great unintentional - or intentional - harm to their own children and do not want to feel guilty about it reap enormous psychological benefits from proving to themselves, over and over again, how likable they are - how nice and grateful and easy other people's children are - how being liked by other people's children proves that their own children are overdramatic architects of their own difficulties in life. I am very sure that your awed admiration of her parenting abilities is a great pleasure to her. even if she's not a monster. and hard for your sister-in-law to take.
like who you like. don't feel bad about it. don't even worry about it. it is ok to like heavily imperfect people who are nice to you. just don't let your liking for your mother-in-law betray you into unwarranted trust and admiration and idealization. Like, but verify, some would say. but in your case I would say rather: like, but leave it at that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:04 PM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Can you (or your partner) talk to her very straightforwardly with something like, "Hey, I totally get that your childhood was traumatic. When you bring it up in conversation, it tends to trigger [anonymous]'s memories of childhood trauma, and it ends up putting them in a really bad headspace. Is there some solution we can find?"
posted by lapis at 10:04 PM on October 22, 2022 [14 favorites]