Comeback to lowball offer?
September 14, 2022 10:21 AM Subscribe
I'm scheduled for "a quick chat" with a prospective employer. I strongly suspect they are going to say they want me, but not at the salary I've stated. Arm me!
The position is at a university, public sector, Europe. I've interviewed really well, am genuinely a top candidate, and I think this chat is somewhat off-books, I suspect it's a "let's find a way to make this work" kinda chat. The person I am speaking to is not HR but would be my supervisor. Extras such as holidays, healthcare budget, etc are already included.
They've provided me with the statistics for the job title, which includes a lot of different jobs, and I've asked for a span of about 4K below the 90th percentile. The 90th percentile is about 60K and the median is about 48K. So I've said between 56 and 60 in other words. I really don't want to go below 54K. The opportunities for advancing in salary are pretty non-existant going forward, it will be a standard, small, percentage each year, so going in strong now would be ideal. I feel my logic on where I've placed myself makes sense.
I don't really know what to say to them other than "but I want it". They will likely say that they just can't meet my span. What do I say? Hope me!
The position is at a university, public sector, Europe. I've interviewed really well, am genuinely a top candidate, and I think this chat is somewhat off-books, I suspect it's a "let's find a way to make this work" kinda chat. The person I am speaking to is not HR but would be my supervisor. Extras such as holidays, healthcare budget, etc are already included.
They've provided me with the statistics for the job title, which includes a lot of different jobs, and I've asked for a span of about 4K below the 90th percentile. The 90th percentile is about 60K and the median is about 48K. So I've said between 56 and 60 in other words. I really don't want to go below 54K. The opportunities for advancing in salary are pretty non-existant going forward, it will be a standard, small, percentage each year, so going in strong now would be ideal. I feel my logic on where I've placed myself makes sense.
I don't really know what to say to them other than "but I want it". They will likely say that they just can't meet my span. What do I say? Hope me!
Mumbling something about rampant inflation might help...
posted by Dotty at 10:50 AM on September 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dotty at 10:50 AM on September 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Since this is academia, professional-development money may be a non-salary perk that could bring the total compensation into the range you want.
posted by humbug at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by humbug at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Are you willing to walk away? That's the main thing. If you are, be mentally prepared for the chance that the negotiations won't work out and that you will then not accept a lowball offer. This will help stay calm and not feel like their offers are personal insults (at least that's how it works for me).
Other than endless, polite variations "I think my request is for a fair salary and I think I can add a lot to your team and while I really want to work here I just don't think I can come at" there's not a lot of art to basic proficiency at negotiation. (The exception is if you both have a lot of flexibility--like they can increase pension payments or offer guaranteed bonuses or significantly more vacation. IME this is rare at any reasonable working-stiff salary level.)
You could mention current inflation--you are especially worried about accepting a lower offer given that there's a good chance it will be worse even less next year.
If I'm on the other side of the table from you I'm probably saying two things:
1) It will mess up our internal equity and be unfair to longtime employees at the same grade. If I said this it would even be true. The obvious response is that you sympathize but aren't really responsible for solving that problem for them (also true.)
2) We just don't bring people in at the 90% of top scale level. That's reward for performance at that level. Also maybe sort-of true. You can refer to your outside experience and accomplishments. But again, the key thing to them is you simply won't take the job without a salary in your asking range.
posted by mark k at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2022 [17 favorites]
Other than endless, polite variations "I think my request is for a fair salary and I think I can add a lot to your team and while I really want to work here I just don't think I can come at
You could mention current inflation--you are especially worried about accepting a lower offer given that there's a good chance it will be worse even less next year.
If I'm on the other side of the table from you I'm probably saying two things:
1) It will mess up our internal equity and be unfair to longtime employees at the same grade. If I said this it would even be true. The obvious response is that you sympathize but aren't really responsible for solving that problem for them (also true.)
2) We just don't bring people in at the 90% of top scale level. That's reward for performance at that level. Also maybe sort-of true. You can refer to your outside experience and accomplishments. But again, the key thing to them is you simply won't take the job without a salary in your asking range.
posted by mark k at 11:00 AM on September 14, 2022 [17 favorites]
"My floor is firm. If that can't be met, I wish you luck in your continued search"
posted by ersatzkat at 11:29 AM on September 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ersatzkat at 11:29 AM on September 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
The scenario that happened to me was: I stated their offered salary wasn't high enough and regretfully could not accept it. They called me back a month later with a higher salary (which was unfortunately still too low). Walking away is a strong negotiating tactic if you don't need the job at that salary.
Remember that organizations need you too. If the position is unfilled, it might be causing major problems and would push them to raise the salary to get a good candidate _right now_.
posted by meowzilla at 11:40 AM on September 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Remember that organizations need you too. If the position is unfilled, it might be causing major problems and would push them to raise the salary to get a good candidate _right now_.
posted by meowzilla at 11:40 AM on September 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm with ersatzkat. You have a firm position, but I'd flip it to make it sound like the deal is already done.
Here's the line I use: "If you can get me to 60K, I'll accept right now. Let me know."
You want the job, but you also won't budge on your number. Why take 54K when you could give yourself an instant 11% raise right now? =) This is the time to do that. No need to justify it or explain further.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:53 AM on September 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
Here's the line I use: "If you can get me to 60K, I'll accept right now. Let me know."
You want the job, but you also won't budge on your number. Why take 54K when you could give yourself an instant 11% raise right now? =) This is the time to do that. No need to justify it or explain further.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:53 AM on September 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
This is a tough one, because as noted above, the best leverage you have in any negotiation is to walk away. You are also correct that now is the best time to advocate for the best salary possible because it becomes much harder to do this later.
So I'm curious about this: "Extras such as holidays, healthcare budget, etc are already included. "
Perchance are there some things in this category that can be negotiated and the manager has control over?
I was in your exact same position and had the same sort of off-the-books conversation with my potential manager. We came to an impasse on the salary, very close to what I wanted, but just far enough away that I couldn't just give in.
Because this was a combo admin/teaching job, the initial requirement was I would be teaching 60% of the time and doing admin duties 40%.
I was able to negotiate and flipped this around to 40% teaching/ 60% admin, which I was grateful for later when they tried to increase my teaching schedule and I could point to the contract and say "No."
The only thing I'll say is if you go down this road of negotiating perks or intangibles, absolutely make sure it's written down and not just an oral agreement.
(On preview, basically what Mark K. said above)
((On preview, also what yellowjacket says below. Ok I'll stop abusing the edit window now!)
posted by jeremias at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
So I'm curious about this: "Extras such as holidays, healthcare budget, etc are already included. "
Perchance are there some things in this category that can be negotiated and the manager has control over?
I was in your exact same position and had the same sort of off-the-books conversation with my potential manager. We came to an impasse on the salary, very close to what I wanted, but just far enough away that I couldn't just give in.
Because this was a combo admin/teaching job, the initial requirement was I would be teaching 60% of the time and doing admin duties 40%.
I was able to negotiate and flipped this around to 40% teaching/ 60% admin, which I was grateful for later when they tried to increase my teaching schedule and I could point to the contract and say "No."
The only thing I'll say is if you go down this road of negotiating perks or intangibles, absolutely make sure it's written down and not just an oral agreement.
(On preview, basically what Mark K. said above)
((On preview, also what yellowjacket says below. Ok I'll stop abusing the edit window now!)
posted by jeremias at 11:54 AM on September 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
If they truly can't meet your minimum salary demands, see if you can make up the value there in some other perk that you'll be able to use:
-Some % of a research fellow's time
-Some % of a grant-writer's time
-A larger conference budget
-An extra teaching assistant
-An equivalent travel budget for your group
-An extra allotment for funding a post-doc
posted by yellowcandy at 11:56 AM on September 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
-Some % of a research fellow's time
-Some % of a grant-writer's time
-A larger conference budget
-An extra teaching assistant
-An equivalent travel budget for your group
-An extra allotment for funding a post-doc
posted by yellowcandy at 11:56 AM on September 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
It can help to have a specific reason why your floor is your floor. E.g.: (1) I am looking at other positions and I know I can earn at least that much elsewhere, but I am most interested in your position so I am willing to take the lower end of the spectrum if it is at least X; (2) given XYZ economic circumstance (like the expense of moving or passing up other options or whatever), I have penciled out a budget and I just can't go below X.
Point is - if you have reasons, it can be more persuasive than just saying you want a specific figure.
posted by Mid at 12:17 PM on September 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Point is - if you have reasons, it can be more persuasive than just saying you want a specific figure.
posted by Mid at 12:17 PM on September 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
You asked to be armed. This is your best ammo: "The opportunities for advancing in salary are pretty non-existant going forward, it will be a standard, small, percentage each year, so going in strong now would be ideal."
Tell them if they can't meet your minimum of 56k, then walk away.
This is how I handled a very similar situation, though not in academia. I was cold recruited by the hiring manager trawling LinkedIn. The role was advertised at a certain range. I told the hiring manager, and then the CEO, that I was interested but not at that salary range. They hit me with the pay equity rationale and the budget limitation rationale. I stayed silent, waiting for them to come up with something else. They did, by asking what was my floor. I told them, and they met it.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 12:20 PM on September 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Tell them if they can't meet your minimum of 56k, then walk away.
This is how I handled a very similar situation, though not in academia. I was cold recruited by the hiring manager trawling LinkedIn. The role was advertised at a certain range. I told the hiring manager, and then the CEO, that I was interested but not at that salary range. They hit me with the pay equity rationale and the budget limitation rationale. I stayed silent, waiting for them to come up with something else. They did, by asking what was my floor. I told them, and they met it.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 12:20 PM on September 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
It may be helpful to identify "competitors" to this organization and find out what their pay bands are, if you can figure that out in time. Even in the public sector there is always some form of competitor.
posted by aramaic at 1:02 PM on September 14, 2022
posted by aramaic at 1:02 PM on September 14, 2022
Don't think of this negotiation as you trying to persuade the supervisor. Think of it as you and the supervisor trying to persuade the university. You need to give the supervisor the ammunition they will need, to make the case to the university to give you the number you want.
Don't make arguments about inflation or anything that else that affects everybody. If they award you an extra 5K on the basis of inflation, they would logically need to give everyone an additional 5K, which obviously is not going to happen.
You need to give them arguments based on you. Just calmly talk through your qualifications: your years of experience, any special aptitudes or skills or talents you have, your accomplishments, anything 'extra' you would bring to the job. Think of it as being a bit like brainstorming. You want to equip the supervisor to go back and say "you know, we didn't realize that anonymous has XXXX, and on that basis I think we will need to give them $$$." The supervisor will be inclined to want to do it, because you are the candidate they want, and they don't want the hassle of reconvening the committee to settle on a second choice. That will feel like failure, and would be more work.
You may need to come down that final 2K (to 54), but hold off on that until you think you are very close to a deal :)
posted by Susan PG at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Don't make arguments about inflation or anything that else that affects everybody. If they award you an extra 5K on the basis of inflation, they would logically need to give everyone an additional 5K, which obviously is not going to happen.
You need to give them arguments based on you. Just calmly talk through your qualifications: your years of experience, any special aptitudes or skills or talents you have, your accomplishments, anything 'extra' you would bring to the job. Think of it as being a bit like brainstorming. You want to equip the supervisor to go back and say "you know, we didn't realize that anonymous has XXXX, and on that basis I think we will need to give them $$$." The supervisor will be inclined to want to do it, because you are the candidate they want, and they don't want the hassle of reconvening the committee to settle on a second choice. That will feel like failure, and would be more work.
You may need to come down that final 2K (to 54), but hold off on that until you think you are very close to a deal :)
posted by Susan PG at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Great advice, thanks! I had the chat before the anon post went live, but a number of things in the thread happened on both sides. They claimed equity to colleagues and asked my pain threshold. I asked theirs instead. They said (and this rings true to other research that I had done) that they had budgeted about 41K for this position, which is in line with what I was afraid of. However, they want to offer me 53K. My threshold was as I mentioned 54K, so I've asked them to meet it and we will be in touch again. Truth be told I will take it at the 53K, it seems like fun and I appreciate the move they have made from their planned pay. I read some advice elsewhere that I found useful so I am adding it to the other great tips here, and that was to meet them with a "yes, if" attitude, to be friendly rather than combatative. We both want me in this position, let's find a way to make it happen. Thanks for the input folks!posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:14 PM on September 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
People respect you more when you ask for more. Glad it went well!
posted by theora55 at 9:42 AM on September 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 9:42 AM on September 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Perhaps a bit off-center, but I had this exact experience a few times, and made good use of the suggestions, especially Susan PG’s.
However …
At a certain point, as a consultant just a few years from retirement, I took a different tack entirely. I accepted a lower salary then I might have gotten.
And I performed accordingly.
Was it “quiet quitting“ before that was cool? Not exactly. My half-ass performance was better than any predecessor’s. More important, my high blood pressure and anxiety took a nose dive. And I retired with plenty of love from coworkers … and my wife.
posted by LonnieK at 6:19 PM on September 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
However …
At a certain point, as a consultant just a few years from retirement, I took a different tack entirely. I accepted a lower salary then I might have gotten.
And I performed accordingly.
Was it “quiet quitting“ before that was cool? Not exactly. My half-ass performance was better than any predecessor’s. More important, my high blood pressure and anxiety took a nose dive. And I retired with plenty of love from coworkers … and my wife.
posted by LonnieK at 6:19 PM on September 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My other comment would be, if there are any other variables they could offer to offset the salary, ask for them ie. More time off
posted by walkinginsunshine at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2022 [19 favorites]