Better conversations that I'm also interested in
July 28, 2022 6:55 AM Subscribe
For whatever reason, I find it boring to discuss books and movies even if I enjoyed the book or movie in question. I know someone that derives a lot of pleasure from this type of conversation. I'm looking for ways to either find this type of conversation less boring or find ancillary topics to talk about.
I don't really enjoy talking to connect unless it's personal sharing about one's experience, inner life, world events, philosophy, scientific discoveries, spirituality/mysticism or psychology. I enjoy connecting through shared activities instead, if the conversation can't have significant depth. Let's watch a movie or take turns reading pages of the book but I don't care to discuss the book the way many people do where it's like they are amateur critics or talking about the plot specifics as I often can't hold the specifics in my head well enough to participate properly in that type of conversation. We can talk about how it relates to internal experience and that's cool. But I am going to give a one sided conversation if you're expecting the way most people talk about books and movies.
How do I get better at this when my ADHD makes it so hard to do something that feels boring to me? I'd like to expand my social circle and this is the kind of thing I need to get better about if I expect to do that. Even fellow introverts don't want to go this deep all the time and those that do would need a little of the more surface conversation to get to that level of bonding.
I don't really enjoy talking to connect unless it's personal sharing about one's experience, inner life, world events, philosophy, scientific discoveries, spirituality/mysticism or psychology. I enjoy connecting through shared activities instead, if the conversation can't have significant depth. Let's watch a movie or take turns reading pages of the book but I don't care to discuss the book the way many people do where it's like they are amateur critics or talking about the plot specifics as I often can't hold the specifics in my head well enough to participate properly in that type of conversation. We can talk about how it relates to internal experience and that's cool. But I am going to give a one sided conversation if you're expecting the way most people talk about books and movies.
How do I get better at this when my ADHD makes it so hard to do something that feels boring to me? I'd like to expand my social circle and this is the kind of thing I need to get better about if I expect to do that. Even fellow introverts don't want to go this deep all the time and those that do would need a little of the more surface conversation to get to that level of bonding.
I love reading fiction. I do not particularly enjoy talking about what I've read, in that I don't want to discuss the characters' motivations, or the theme of the story, or... well, the "book club questions" section you sometimes find at the back of the book? Anything along those lines.
I often deflect conversation about a specific book by talking about other books it reminded me of, or books that I think the person would enjoy if they liked / didn't like that one, or other books by the same author, or a book that I'm looking forward to reading.
If I didn't enjoy the book, and I'm talking to someone who also didn't enjoy it, that can be fun: we can bond by picking at plot holes, or lamenting the grammatical errors, or complaining about how *infuriating* the main character was. Things that annoy me are very likely to stick in my mind for long enough to talk about them.
And I can use the book as a jumping-off point for a discussion of something relevant. "Yes, I enjoyed it, and then I went and read up about monarch butterflies / the Napoleonic Wars / fossil-hunting, and did you know..."
Maybe one of those would work for you?
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:24 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I often deflect conversation about a specific book by talking about other books it reminded me of, or books that I think the person would enjoy if they liked / didn't like that one, or other books by the same author, or a book that I'm looking forward to reading.
If I didn't enjoy the book, and I'm talking to someone who also didn't enjoy it, that can be fun: we can bond by picking at plot holes, or lamenting the grammatical errors, or complaining about how *infuriating* the main character was. Things that annoy me are very likely to stick in my mind for long enough to talk about them.
And I can use the book as a jumping-off point for a discussion of something relevant. "Yes, I enjoyed it, and then I went and read up about monarch butterflies / the Napoleonic Wars / fossil-hunting, and did you know..."
Maybe one of those would work for you?
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 7:24 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Just wanted to say that I wouldn’t be so quick to blame ADHD for not wanting to have in depth analytical conversations about books and movies. Some people just don’t enjoy having those kinds of talks. I’m the kind of person who will greatly enjoy a book or movie and then just say “I really liked that book/movie” and then move on with my life. I don’t care to discuss it. It’s okay!
posted by bananana at 7:25 AM on July 28, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by bananana at 7:25 AM on July 28, 2022 [12 favorites]
I also have a lot of trouble retaining information from books (a big problem for my career). My solution has been to find a couple of things in the book that were interesting to me and stood out for specific reasons and then to talk about those things, what they remind me of, how different people interpret them, and so on. For instance I was captivated by the discussion of moths in Sebald's Austerlitz and it helped me talk about the book in a compelling way with someone who was deeply in love with it.
posted by derrinyet at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I get what you're saying because the same thing happens to me fairly often. When it does, I've learned to completely remove myself from the equation. I don't talk about what I think of the work in question. My opinion becomes irrelevant. Instead, I make the conversation completely about the other person and their opinion of the book, TV show, or movie. I ask why they like it. What was their favorite part? It's fun to see a friend get passionate about something they love. Plus, people like to talk about themselves and their interests. And it saves me from having to be involved in a conversation about a book or show I don't care about. The side effect? Sometimes (rarely, but sometimes), my friend's enthusiasm will lead me to give something a second chance and I'll find out I actually like it.
(Postscript: I'm a huge fan of Everything Everywhere All at Once. I know I'm boring some of my friends when I talk about it. So, I tend to switch the conversation. But one of my friends used my own tactic against me. He asked me why I liked it so much, and got me talking about the film at length. I had fun, and he didn't have to talk about the movie haha.)
posted by jdroth at 7:31 AM on July 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
(Postscript: I'm a huge fan of Everything Everywhere All at Once. I know I'm boring some of my friends when I talk about it. So, I tend to switch the conversation. But one of my friends used my own tactic against me. He asked me why I liked it so much, and got me talking about the film at length. I had fun, and he didn't have to talk about the movie haha.)
posted by jdroth at 7:31 AM on July 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
It's okay not to be into discussing books or movies for fun; that's just personal taste. But you'll do a lot better in these conversations if you get over the idea that you're too deep for such things. Where do you think those ideas you consider "deep" came from in the first place? Sure, if you watch/read only silly or shallow films/movies, they may not offer much matter for serious discussion, but, if you feel that way, then...why are you watching/reading only silly or shallow films/movies? And why don't you have a more sophisticated lens to bring to the less sophisticated material? I doubt you can help conveying your attitude in your conversations, and that can't help.
posted by praemunire at 7:40 AM on July 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:40 AM on July 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
You don't have to talk about media to have a social life, like you don't have to talk about sports. But you have to find something to talk about, and there are reasons why people gravitate to those kinds of things.
That said, I'm kind of confused about what your issue is with book discussions. It sounds like you can't retain enough detail to have a detailed conversation, but on the other hand you expect more depth than most people are able to provide or respond to? If you do want to talk about books, I will say that most people tend to re-direct any one conversation multiple times to be more about what interests them or indeed to change the level of the conversation. But I think jdroth is onto something and that a lot people people you talk to about books are really trying to find something out about you.
posted by BibiRose at 7:53 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
That said, I'm kind of confused about what your issue is with book discussions. It sounds like you can't retain enough detail to have a detailed conversation, but on the other hand you expect more depth than most people are able to provide or respond to? If you do want to talk about books, I will say that most people tend to re-direct any one conversation multiple times to be more about what interests them or indeed to change the level of the conversation. But I think jdroth is onto something and that a lot people people you talk to about books are really trying to find something out about you.
posted by BibiRose at 7:53 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh dear, I don't mean to imply that I am "too deep" for these conversations. I was just guessing that as the reason I struggle to have them. I have an MFA and have done my share of lit crit assignments and recognize that ideas come from somewhere. But that is good food for thought as I'm sure I struggle to hide my boredom even if it isn't because I think I'm too deep. (I don't think deep is superior to shallow. On the contrary, I'm envious of people that can engage on shallow stuff comfortably and be energized by it since that's most people's bread and butter. Or that deep = sophisticated. I just struggle to find a toehold for surface conversation. I'm sure the way I engage "deep" topics is unsophisticated and rather simple as my experience has been that efforts to be sophisticated land as pedantic so I try to avoid that.) I am also autistic and books/movies are not a special interest for me, and even the books/movies about my special interests I don't enjoy talking about.
As an additional point of consideration, this problem is more about fiction. I can discuss nonfiction and self-help more easily. But fiction, or how a certain director's style shows up in their films, that sort of thing is harder. I appreciate that comment from praemunire which allowed me to get clearer on this detail for myself and may affect the responses I get.
posted by crunchy potato at 7:59 AM on July 28, 2022
As an additional point of consideration, this problem is more about fiction. I can discuss nonfiction and self-help more easily. But fiction, or how a certain director's style shows up in their films, that sort of thing is harder. I appreciate that comment from praemunire which allowed me to get clearer on this detail for myself and may affect the responses I get.
posted by crunchy potato at 7:59 AM on July 28, 2022
Best answer: I don't really enjoy talking to connect unless it's personal sharing about one's experience, inner life, world events, philosophy, scientific discoveries, spirituality/mysticism or psychology
I can relate to being bored by book group discussion that is surface-y or debate-y "I liked it"/"I didn't like it", although I don't have ADHD. What makes my current book group more interesting is the facilitator sending around links to profiles and interviews with the author, and then the author's inner life and experience becomes a topic of conversation. For example, this interview with Susanna Clarke, author of the excellent novel Piranesi, sheds some light on her psychological state and deepened my experience with the book. Clarke's background became a starting place for group members to talk about their own lives, too.
posted by rogerroger at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I can relate to being bored by book group discussion that is surface-y or debate-y "I liked it"/"I didn't like it", although I don't have ADHD. What makes my current book group more interesting is the facilitator sending around links to profiles and interviews with the author, and then the author's inner life and experience becomes a topic of conversation. For example, this interview with Susanna Clarke, author of the excellent novel Piranesi, sheds some light on her psychological state and deepened my experience with the book. Clarke's background became a starting place for group members to talk about their own lives, too.
posted by rogerroger at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I love talking about books so much that I got an entire English degree of otherwise questionable usefulness. In that light, it's kinda surprising how rarely I talk about books with friends - even with those friends who also love reading. Book talk can be great, but for me, it needs to either be very structured (think seminar, or book club) or very organic (since you mention XY, that reminds I read somewhere...).
I don't particularly like talking about books I've just read or am currently reading, because I often need some time for the reading experience to settle, an opinion to form. I also never talk about the film when I come out of the cinema. I thoroughly hate that sort of book talk where's it's all about establishing rankings (top ten novels about XYZ, the greatest writer of the 20th century, who is better - Goethe or Schiller, etc.). I can sometimes go in for beat-for-beat plot summaries, but only if it's a book I haven't actually read and probably won't pick up later either, because it interests me enough to listen to the sparknotes version, but not enough to spend much time on it. (I love having vague notions about lots of stuff). There are a lot of ways to talk about books, and a lot of them don't interest me at all.
But there are also lots of ways to steer book talk in potentially more interesting, more personal directions. Since you say you like talking about personal experience, inner life, philosophy, psychology etc. - books can be a great jumping off point for that, if you practice asking the right follow-up questions. People who are really good at talking about books in the way that I like, will inevitably incorporate all of these things anyway. It's more likely, maybe, if you make the book conversation less about a specific book and more about a personal reading experience. For that purpose "What are you currently reading?" is not a good question. ("What is your favourite book?" is also a horrible question, but for slightly different reasons). Better prompts could be:
What's
... a book you wanted to throw against the wall in anger
... a book that gave you the worst-book hang-over
... a book that cheered you up during a difficult time
... your favourite book someone else picked for you/gave you as a present
.... the least suitable book someone else gave you as a present
... the worst book you had to read for school
... a book with the protagonist you could identify with most
... a book that most profoundly shook your world-view/changed the way you think about something
... the worst book by an author you otherwise admire
... the book you re-read most often
... a book you only really understood on second reading
....a book you used to love and wouldn't recommend any more
... a book you still love but will only recommend with caveats, to very few people, because it's very much an acquired taste
.... a book you would make everyone read if you had magical powers
....the book that first made you fall in love with reading
... a book you put away, but might pick up again, once you're in the right state of mind
... a book you now love that took you the most attempts to finish
... a book you regret finishing
The great advantage of these prompts is that people can choose how much they want to talk about the book, and how much they want to talk about themselves. (eg. You can decide to give more details about the book that cheered you up, or more details about the terrible time during which you needed to be cheered up). You can focus on conventional book talk/plot summary/literary criticism if you don't like to share too much intimate stuff. But people who actually like to talk about themselves are encouraged to do so, and that might well lead to the sort of conversation you enjoy more.
posted by sohalt at 8:13 AM on July 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
I don't particularly like talking about books I've just read or am currently reading, because I often need some time for the reading experience to settle, an opinion to form. I also never talk about the film when I come out of the cinema. I thoroughly hate that sort of book talk where's it's all about establishing rankings (top ten novels about XYZ, the greatest writer of the 20th century, who is better - Goethe or Schiller, etc.). I can sometimes go in for beat-for-beat plot summaries, but only if it's a book I haven't actually read and probably won't pick up later either, because it interests me enough to listen to the sparknotes version, but not enough to spend much time on it. (I love having vague notions about lots of stuff). There are a lot of ways to talk about books, and a lot of them don't interest me at all.
But there are also lots of ways to steer book talk in potentially more interesting, more personal directions. Since you say you like talking about personal experience, inner life, philosophy, psychology etc. - books can be a great jumping off point for that, if you practice asking the right follow-up questions. People who are really good at talking about books in the way that I like, will inevitably incorporate all of these things anyway. It's more likely, maybe, if you make the book conversation less about a specific book and more about a personal reading experience. For that purpose "What are you currently reading?" is not a good question. ("What is your favourite book?" is also a horrible question, but for slightly different reasons). Better prompts could be:
What's
... a book you wanted to throw against the wall in anger
... a book that gave you the worst-book hang-over
... a book that cheered you up during a difficult time
... your favourite book someone else picked for you/gave you as a present
.... the least suitable book someone else gave you as a present
... the worst book you had to read for school
... a book with the protagonist you could identify with most
... a book that most profoundly shook your world-view/changed the way you think about something
... the worst book by an author you otherwise admire
... the book you re-read most often
... a book you only really understood on second reading
....a book you used to love and wouldn't recommend any more
... a book you still love but will only recommend with caveats, to very few people, because it's very much an acquired taste
.... a book you would make everyone read if you had magical powers
....the book that first made you fall in love with reading
... a book you put away, but might pick up again, once you're in the right state of mind
... a book you now love that took you the most attempts to finish
... a book you regret finishing
The great advantage of these prompts is that people can choose how much they want to talk about the book, and how much they want to talk about themselves. (eg. You can decide to give more details about the book that cheered you up, or more details about the terrible time during which you needed to be cheered up). You can focus on conventional book talk/plot summary/literary criticism if you don't like to share too much intimate stuff. But people who actually like to talk about themselves are encouraged to do so, and that might well lead to the sort of conversation you enjoy more.
posted by sohalt at 8:13 AM on July 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Honestly I think this is just one of the basic tenants of small talk...asking people what they've been reading, watching, seen anything good lately is maybe a notch or two above talking about weather.
Yeah, it's annoying and surface level but If you are "looking to expand your social circle" probably best to build up a certain amount of patience for this type of polite convo and saying things like "oh I liked that movie! did you see Y by the same director" or even "eh, it wasn't for me but in terms of sci fi did you see XYZ? that was definitely more my speed" is my recommendation as this is a pretty common modern conversational ping pong rally when people don't know each other too well yet and using that as a springboard for other more personal topics.
posted by windbox at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, it's annoying and surface level but If you are "looking to expand your social circle" probably best to build up a certain amount of patience for this type of polite convo and saying things like "oh I liked that movie! did you see Y by the same director" or even "eh, it wasn't for me but in terms of sci fi did you see XYZ? that was definitely more my speed" is my recommendation as this is a pretty common modern conversational ping pong rally when people don't know each other too well yet and using that as a springboard for other more personal topics.
posted by windbox at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
I focus on my own experience reading the book, facts I've learned about the work or the author, or the technical skill that is involved in the writing. I think even the simple "I enjoyed the way that she developed X as a character, he was so one dimensional in the beginning and I wasn't sure that I would like him until..." kind of conversations can make it seem more like a shared experience. In a way, reading the same work is- whether it's at the same time and place or not, you are experiencing the same work in its same form, which is almost impossible to do with any other consumable. Even eating the same dish at the same restaurant on different days will lend a different experience because of the differences in patrons, weather, preparation, and so on. I suppose that viewpoint makes it more fun for me to discuss books, even with people or works I find rather dull.
posted by shesaysgo at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2022
posted by shesaysgo at 8:23 AM on July 28, 2022
I think I have ADHD and I do love books and tv, they’re the basis of my education and my career and yet I too find these conversations where we critique books together absolutely nightmarishly boring. I’m watching this thread with interest but basically the only recourse I’ve found is to nod politely for about 3 minutes and then change the subject!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:43 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:43 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I recommend the podcast You Are Good for a way to do this. They discuss movies, but really they talk about personal stuff and feelings with the movie as a jumping off point, not technical aspects or even plot really.
posted by emd3737 at 8:54 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by emd3737 at 8:54 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh dear, I don't mean to imply that I am "too deep" for these conversations.
(I don't think deep is superior to shallow. On the contrary, I'm envious of people that can engage on shallow stuff comfortably and be energized by it since that's most people's bread and butter. Or that deep = sophisticated. I just struggle to find a toehold for surface conversation.
what
you say you don't mean to imply it, but then.
why would you, and how could you, be having shallow conversations about books? What do books have to do with shallow stuff or with surface conversation? what is the connection here and how did you arrive at it?
I do not endorse this other point of view either, but you understand that most people who have no ability or interest to talk about books they read, because they either have no thoughts about those books or no capacity for verbalizing them, come across as shallow to others, not deep.
sometimes people have both thoughts about books and the ability to express them but no desire to reveal them to particular people whose own thoughts they don't value, and that can be interpreted as a superiority complex. a pearls before swine situation. but I don't think you are saying or suggesting that about yourself.
your views on literature are absolutely your own business but they are also very confusing. conversation about books is only ever as superficial as a person's thoughts on books are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:57 AM on July 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
(I don't think deep is superior to shallow. On the contrary, I'm envious of people that can engage on shallow stuff comfortably and be energized by it since that's most people's bread and butter. Or that deep = sophisticated. I just struggle to find a toehold for surface conversation.
what
you say you don't mean to imply it, but then.
why would you, and how could you, be having shallow conversations about books? What do books have to do with shallow stuff or with surface conversation? what is the connection here and how did you arrive at it?
I do not endorse this other point of view either, but you understand that most people who have no ability or interest to talk about books they read, because they either have no thoughts about those books or no capacity for verbalizing them, come across as shallow to others, not deep.
sometimes people have both thoughts about books and the ability to express them but no desire to reveal them to particular people whose own thoughts they don't value, and that can be interpreted as a superiority complex. a pearls before swine situation. but I don't think you are saying or suggesting that about yourself.
your views on literature are absolutely your own business but they are also very confusing. conversation about books is only ever as superficial as a person's thoughts on books are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:57 AM on July 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: As I was reading your question, I was wondering if you were autistic, which you say you are in a follow up comment. I run into this issue with all small talk. One thing that has helped is by shifting how I think about these conversations and essentially accepting that they will never be fulfilling/enjoyable for me but, like with many things, there are things you have to do that you don’t enjoy (small talk) to get the things you do enjoy (friendships; deeper conversations). These conversations aren’t intended to share factual information or shift your way of thinking about the world. For me, that makes it really hard to find a purpose for the convo - why have it at all? There are other interpersonal benefits that neurotypical people get from these conversations I assume, so I’ve learned to engage in them for the other person’s benefit not mine. I keep myself interested by engaging in active listening and seeing how long I can keep the person talking without adding any new info to the convo myself. Often NT people don’t even notice and walk away thinking we had a great talk. And that’s fine; small talk isn’t why I’m friends with them, I get other benefits from the continued friendship and I’m happy that they had a good time. (For an excellent example of this kind of one-sided small talk in the sports context, see the most recent episode of Better Call Saul.)
posted by ohneat at 9:42 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ohneat at 9:42 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
So I think that the classification of shallow vs deep is confusing your issue here, actually. It might be more helpful to think in terms of another metaphor, like wavelengths. If you're working with blue and your friend's on yellow, then trying to only talk blue or yellow will be a challenge. But if you can let the conversation go to green...
For example, my best friend really liked Crazy Rich Asians (the movie) and when we watched it together I found it super interesting how the filmmakers blended certain Asian drama tropes with a western romcom, and I had some thoughts about the way the pacing worked out (or didn't) as a result. But when I said this, my bestie was nonplussed; that was not at all how she was relating to this film. She is a literature professor who literally analyzes texts for a living, so it's not like she's not capable of or interested in "deep" discussion, it's just that we appreciated different aspects of the work.
In practice, two things, assuming you're actually talking with friends and not just making phatic small talk. One is to stop worrying about the way you naturally relate to books and movies, whether it's too weird or whatever. You're not going to have a very nice time in a conversation trying to be someone you're not, so just give your genuine thoughts. Even if it's no thoughts at all, you can say that. Two, you can cultivate an interest in the way other people think about art. Really listen to their take: if it's just "dinosaurs are cool" you can ask them what the coolest part of dinos is or if they're loved them since they were a kid or anything like that. Remember that difference is the driver of conversation; two people who both only say "dinos are cool" are equally at a dead end, conversationally, as two people who both agree "this work employs a Hegelian dialectic".
posted by radiogreentea at 10:10 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
For example, my best friend really liked Crazy Rich Asians (the movie) and when we watched it together I found it super interesting how the filmmakers blended certain Asian drama tropes with a western romcom, and I had some thoughts about the way the pacing worked out (or didn't) as a result. But when I said this, my bestie was nonplussed; that was not at all how she was relating to this film. She is a literature professor who literally analyzes texts for a living, so it's not like she's not capable of or interested in "deep" discussion, it's just that we appreciated different aspects of the work.
In practice, two things, assuming you're actually talking with friends and not just making phatic small talk. One is to stop worrying about the way you naturally relate to books and movies, whether it's too weird or whatever. You're not going to have a very nice time in a conversation trying to be someone you're not, so just give your genuine thoughts. Even if it's no thoughts at all, you can say that. Two, you can cultivate an interest in the way other people think about art. Really listen to their take: if it's just "dinosaurs are cool" you can ask them what the coolest part of dinos is or if they're loved them since they were a kid or anything like that. Remember that difference is the driver of conversation; two people who both only say "dinos are cool" are equally at a dead end, conversationally, as two people who both agree "this work employs a Hegelian dialectic".
posted by radiogreentea at 10:10 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree that the shallow/deep framing is problematic. It's subjective, and it would be nigh impossible to convince the holder of a view/opinion/interest which you find to be "shallow" that the descriptor isn't an inherent value judgement.
But aside from that:
I often can't hold the specifics in my head well enough to participate properly in that type of conversation
How do I get better at this when my ADHD makes it so hard to do something that feels boring to me?
I am also autistic and books/movies are not a special interest for me
Is it possible for you to be upfront about these aspects of yourself with the "someone that derives a lot of pleasure from this type of conversation?" I highly recommend doing so, instead of (or at least in addition to) attempting to mask.
Otherwise folks will likely interpret your apparent disinterest (and it will show on your face and in your body language) and general reluctance to participate in the conversation as directed towards them personally, and you risk alienating them.
I also strongly agree with jdroth, so long as hearing someone else talk about the topic isn't part of the problem for you. I do this often when I just don't have the capability, interest, or knowledge to fulfill my end of the conversation for some topics, and it almost always works out just fine. Sometimes folks are looking to be heard rather than looking to have an equal back and forth, and that's ok so long as everyone is having a good time. I see it as taking an interest in the person, rather than the topic.
posted by rustybullrake at 10:16 AM on July 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
But aside from that:
I often can't hold the specifics in my head well enough to participate properly in that type of conversation
How do I get better at this when my ADHD makes it so hard to do something that feels boring to me?
I am also autistic and books/movies are not a special interest for me
Is it possible for you to be upfront about these aspects of yourself with the "someone that derives a lot of pleasure from this type of conversation?" I highly recommend doing so, instead of (or at least in addition to) attempting to mask.
Otherwise folks will likely interpret your apparent disinterest (and it will show on your face and in your body language) and general reluctance to participate in the conversation as directed towards them personally, and you risk alienating them.
I also strongly agree with jdroth, so long as hearing someone else talk about the topic isn't part of the problem for you. I do this often when I just don't have the capability, interest, or knowledge to fulfill my end of the conversation for some topics, and it almost always works out just fine. Sometimes folks are looking to be heard rather than looking to have an equal back and forth, and that's ok so long as everyone is having a good time. I see it as taking an interest in the person, rather than the topic.
posted by rustybullrake at 10:16 AM on July 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes thank you - clearly "deep" isn't the right word for what I'm trying to convey. Maybe I'm talking about personal or emotional connection with the ideas vs impersonal or intellectual discussion of the ideas/plot/characterization/etc., but that framing is problematic too.
I'm starting to realize that this type of conversation can also be a go-to for individuals that want to connect but specifically don't want to use self-disclosure for whatever reason, or want to connect intellectually but not necessarily emotionally, as this is definitely a "small talk level 2" theme but I see them use it with people they know very well.
Bowing out now; thanks.
posted by crunchy potato at 11:23 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm starting to realize that this type of conversation can also be a go-to for individuals that want to connect but specifically don't want to use self-disclosure for whatever reason, or want to connect intellectually but not necessarily emotionally, as this is definitely a "small talk level 2" theme but I see them use it with people they know very well.
Bowing out now; thanks.
posted by crunchy potato at 11:23 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Before you got to this part - How do I get better at this when my ADHD makes... - I was like "holy crap, are you me?" I have ADHD and also struggle with the same thing because I don't tend to remember things in much detail but rather in the way they made me feel while reading or watching them, which is then hard for me to translate in a satisfactory way to others.
Perhaps you could work to identify what about a piece is particularly resonating with you and why, from the perspective of one of the areas of conversation you enjoy - personal sharing about one's experience, inner life, world events, philosophy, scientific discoveries, spirituality/mysticism or psychology - and talk about it that way, since ultimately the value of storytelling is in the universality of experience. Even if they aren't stated in the piece, you can speculate on how they relate to the characters.
Or alternatively, just ask the other person questions that are tangentially related and the conversation will probably turn itself naturally.
posted by urbanlenny at 12:01 PM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Perhaps you could work to identify what about a piece is particularly resonating with you and why, from the perspective of one of the areas of conversation you enjoy - personal sharing about one's experience, inner life, world events, philosophy, scientific discoveries, spirituality/mysticism or psychology - and talk about it that way, since ultimately the value of storytelling is in the universality of experience. Even if they aren't stated in the piece, you can speculate on how they relate to the characters.
Or alternatively, just ask the other person questions that are tangentially related and the conversation will probably turn itself naturally.
posted by urbanlenny at 12:01 PM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have a family member who really does not want to talk about either the kind of “deep dive on plot/characters” stuff or the “personal connection” stuff but can be quite engaged in talking about the craft of the work itself. Cinematography or the author’s detailed knowledge of setting or any meta stuff about the making of the thing will hold his interest for a long time. I don’t know if that’s a place where you and the person in your life could meet for a conversation that would be more engaging for you, but I’ll toss it out there as an option.
posted by Stacey at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 1:09 PM on July 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
came here to say what Stacey said! I have the same problem and was trying to pin down what the issue is, and for me at least I think it’s because it seems kind of pointless to speculate on an artist’s intentions. I’m very much in the camp of “art is subjective” and believe that its meaning is found/created by each individual who consumes it. For fiction and movies, it seems silly and ridiculous (again, to me!) to discuss, e.g. character motivations because those characters aren’t real, they don’t have independent thoughts. There is no universe that exists outside of what was presented on the screen/page, and unless the creator is with you, there’s also no way to validate if your interpretations are “correct.” Any/all/no interpretations are correct! (I am also TERRIBLE at retaining names, plot points, basically any details at all which really doesn’t help) 😅
As Stacey mentioned, I do enjoy talking about:
- Creative and technical aspects like camera work, set design, costumes, acting, score etc
- Fun Easter eggs or interesting visual symbolism (this veers into “interpretation” but feels more like art history, anthropology, pop culture, etc)
- Anything related to the creator’s unique style and tone, and how they use specific tools/elements to create it
Not sure if this is at all helpful, but I totally understand where you’re coming from and hope you can find some common ground with your friend! My ex would try to coax this shit out of me after every movie we saw together and it was so frustrating. I’d just shrug and be like “I liked the makeup?”
posted by a.steele at 7:55 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
As Stacey mentioned, I do enjoy talking about:
- Creative and technical aspects like camera work, set design, costumes, acting, score etc
- Fun Easter eggs or interesting visual symbolism (this veers into “interpretation” but feels more like art history, anthropology, pop culture, etc)
- Anything related to the creator’s unique style and tone, and how they use specific tools/elements to create it
Not sure if this is at all helpful, but I totally understand where you’re coming from and hope you can find some common ground with your friend! My ex would try to coax this shit out of me after every movie we saw together and it was so frustrating. I’d just shrug and be like “I liked the makeup?”
posted by a.steele at 7:55 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I wonder if you focus more on something technical or historical about the work, would that be easier for you?
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:05 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]