When Is It Time to Leave?
June 5, 2022 7:45 PM Subscribe
I am transgender, visibly and vocally. I am married to a cis-male and have a child who doesn't care about the gender binary. We all live in the US. I think you can see where this is going...
We are lucky in that we have the income and ability to consider moving to another country - based primarily on my current job and experience. My spouse is a stay at home parent and the kid is a kid. However we've been arguing lately about when we'd consider doing this. Me? I think it's now, or a year at most so we can get the process started and perhaps serve as a landing point for others later on. My spouse thinks I'm worrying about too much because we live on the West Coast in a very liberal area. We aren't really basing this on much more than emotions at this point however, so I turn to you with this question.
When is it time to consider leaving? Is it better to go sooner before things really go to shit, or to try and claim asylum later on? I'm looking for facts, such as they are, or what's happened in similar situations in other countries that could potentially be applied to the US.
Assume that we are already doing what we can in the US. No need to derail in that direction.
We are lucky in that we have the income and ability to consider moving to another country - based primarily on my current job and experience. My spouse is a stay at home parent and the kid is a kid. However we've been arguing lately about when we'd consider doing this. Me? I think it's now, or a year at most so we can get the process started and perhaps serve as a landing point for others later on. My spouse thinks I'm worrying about too much because we live on the West Coast in a very liberal area. We aren't really basing this on much more than emotions at this point however, so I turn to you with this question.
When is it time to consider leaving? Is it better to go sooner before things really go to shit, or to try and claim asylum later on? I'm looking for facts, such as they are, or what's happened in similar situations in other countries that could potentially be applied to the US.
Assume that we are already doing what we can in the US. No need to derail in that direction.
Apologies if this is off topic or unhelpful. I’m white and cishet, the mom of a non-binary kid (though male-presenting) and of two Black kids. I’ve thought a lot about where they could live freely. I’ve also lived overseas a few times. It’s difficult to underestimate what you lose when you leave your home country. My departures were never intended to be permanent, but here are some of the things I’ve thought about along these lines:
Where would I go? What’s the situation like there, and have I spoken directly to members of my community about their experiences there on a day to day basis? (It’s not peaches everywhere, and I am guessing you are white but if not: you definitely need to find out what it’s like for folks of color in your destination country.)
Could I come back easily? And if not, what would I be giving up? Are there family members who might need my care? Are there relationships that would be damaged that I value?
What is my current community like? Do I think this community would protect me if necessary? How might things go down here?
It’s one thing to leave. It’s another thing to completely start over in a new country. I am not minimizing the reality of what’s happening in this country now. It’s terrifying. But the more you know about various options and just what a difficult path it is to leave, the more you can compare it to your current situation.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:29 PM on June 5, 2022 [31 favorites]
Where would I go? What’s the situation like there, and have I spoken directly to members of my community about their experiences there on a day to day basis? (It’s not peaches everywhere, and I am guessing you are white but if not: you definitely need to find out what it’s like for folks of color in your destination country.)
Could I come back easily? And if not, what would I be giving up? Are there family members who might need my care? Are there relationships that would be damaged that I value?
What is my current community like? Do I think this community would protect me if necessary? How might things go down here?
It’s one thing to leave. It’s another thing to completely start over in a new country. I am not minimizing the reality of what’s happening in this country now. It’s terrifying. But the more you know about various options and just what a difficult path it is to leave, the more you can compare it to your current situation.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:29 PM on June 5, 2022 [31 favorites]
The bar for claiming asylum is much higher than many people think: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/09/lgbt-asylum-seekers-routinely-see-claims-rejected-in-europe-and-uk
If you have the option and desire, I'd simply emigrate now. LGBT asylum seekers are regularly deported on grounds that, for example, simply being trans is not a crime in their home country, so I'd never count on that as a pathway.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
If you have the option and desire, I'd simply emigrate now. LGBT asylum seekers are regularly deported on grounds that, for example, simply being trans is not a crime in their home country, so I'd never count on that as a pathway.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 8:31 PM on June 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
It sounds like the right time to consider your exit routes. You haven't mentioned visas but they are a very real factor in getting another job (e.g. in Europe can the company prove there isn't someone else in Europe available for this position, or do you meet the UK tier criteria? Are you in the right career for New Zealand?). I'd look into any other citizenship options — do you have Italian or Irish heritage? Can you speak the language of wherever you want to go? Will the education options suit your kid? Is the final destination politically stable enough to make this a valid move for all of the effort?
Never too early to get prepared with something like this, as the logistics can be huge.
posted by socky_puppy at 8:42 PM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Never too early to get prepared with something like this, as the logistics can be huge.
posted by socky_puppy at 8:42 PM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Go. Go now. I'd leave if I could bear to leave my elderly father. Go while you can still get passports. Better poor, alive and together anywhere on earth than not.
posted by Frowner at 8:51 PM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:51 PM on June 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd start trying to figure out if there's a way out now. It's probably not going to get any better from here on in if you wait (I mean, you may be okay in a blue state, but who the hell knows on how long) and you probably can't count on asylum.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:51 PM on June 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am speaking from a queer Jewish perspective. Most of my family gtfo of Eastern Europe a few generations before the main glut of the 20 C diaspora, because they had the means and saw the writing on the wall. By the time people were coming from places that actively wanted to murder them, members of my family were positioned to send significant aid, provide information and jobs and community and connections. One pair of however many great grandparents even sponsored some Holocaust survivors to sail all the way to Cuba. I am proud of my family’s foresight and subsequent generosity and hospitality. People these days make really good points about those of us stuck in places that are hostile to us, how we need to help the places get better and not blame the people for the leaders’ cruelty. But I think that viewpoint is a little shallow, because things that my family did, and what you’re talking about doing, is what’s allowed marginalized people to exist all over the world, to persist, and to thrive.
That said, religion is not equitable to trans things so neatly, just like it’s not like race. I do think that it is extremely unlikely that the government of your liberal west coast area is going to officially endorse violence against trans people, and that though it will probably be harder, it won’t become impossible to be trans in the US for quite some time, if ever. There have always been trans people and there always will be, and unlike other cultural and physical identities it’s not something you inherit from your family. If you decide to stay, make contingency plans as well. You are in a position to connect people who do want to leave with those who have already left. You have time to find alternative ways to access medical care, time to feel out your neighbors and time to take stock of all your advantages where you are now and make the most of them.
I think that no matter what you and your family decide, you can use your emotions to fuel actions that help both yourself and others in the years to come. As for me, as I have no desire to medically transition, and live in Seattle, and have some of that family money from the aforementioned great grandparents, I intend to be one of the people who can provide a couch, or part of a ticket, or, for my family in Texas, a place that they will eventually move to when they realize it’s not just that I won’t come to them, but that their state is actively keeping me out.
posted by Mizu at 9:55 PM on June 5, 2022 [17 favorites]
That said, religion is not equitable to trans things so neatly, just like it’s not like race. I do think that it is extremely unlikely that the government of your liberal west coast area is going to officially endorse violence against trans people, and that though it will probably be harder, it won’t become impossible to be trans in the US for quite some time, if ever. There have always been trans people and there always will be, and unlike other cultural and physical identities it’s not something you inherit from your family. If you decide to stay, make contingency plans as well. You are in a position to connect people who do want to leave with those who have already left. You have time to find alternative ways to access medical care, time to feel out your neighbors and time to take stock of all your advantages where you are now and make the most of them.
I think that no matter what you and your family decide, you can use your emotions to fuel actions that help both yourself and others in the years to come. As for me, as I have no desire to medically transition, and live in Seattle, and have some of that family money from the aforementioned great grandparents, I intend to be one of the people who can provide a couch, or part of a ticket, or, for my family in Texas, a place that they will eventually move to when they realize it’s not just that I won’t come to them, but that their state is actively keeping me out.
posted by Mizu at 9:55 PM on June 5, 2022 [17 favorites]
I have thought a lot about where to live (I’m a racial minority and somewhat gender-expansive). In your shoes I don’t know that I would leave the US, but I would probably start thinking about moving to the queerest / most left / most diverse US city I could manage. I would want to live in a community with like-minded people and where activism is the norm.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 10:11 PM on June 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 10:11 PM on June 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
I’m kind of confused, where are you considering emigrating to that is better for trans and gender nonconforming people than the west coast of the USA?
I ask because I live in LA but spend a LOT of time in France, which is WAY further behind than the USA in queer rights. I’m also from Canada and it has many advantages but as a queer person I would want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, maybe Montreal, and that is it. USA national politics is scary but (in LA) I truly get the sense that being an individual is actually an option here, not so in many places of the world. I’m curious about your decision making process.
posted by andreapandrea at 10:37 PM on June 5, 2022 [64 favorites]
I ask because I live in LA but spend a LOT of time in France, which is WAY further behind than the USA in queer rights. I’m also from Canada and it has many advantages but as a queer person I would want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, maybe Montreal, and that is it. USA national politics is scary but (in LA) I truly get the sense that being an individual is actually an option here, not so in many places of the world. I’m curious about your decision making process.
posted by andreapandrea at 10:37 PM on June 5, 2022 [64 favorites]
My spouse thinks I'm worrying about too much because we live on the West Coast in a very liberal area.
If federal law is changed such that trans rights are radically curtailed, I can't imagine California complying. The mayor of Palm Springs is trans, ffs.
posted by billjings at 12:01 AM on June 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
If federal law is changed such that trans rights are radically curtailed, I can't imagine California complying. The mayor of Palm Springs is trans, ffs.
posted by billjings at 12:01 AM on June 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I’m not saying you should move to France but wanted to push back on the idea that we are way behind the USA on queer rights, and we are actively passing more laws each year rather than removing them.
posted by ellieBOA at 12:43 AM on June 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 12:43 AM on June 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
From the UK here. Also a former immigrant to the US (who returned to the UK so I can see things from 'both sides' to an extent).
The culture wars you mention are not just specific to the US, although the rhetoric tends to be more violent there, and for the last 10 years or so immigration to the UK (frpm long before Brexit) has literally been subject to the 'hostile environment' policy. UK immigration tends to be difficult and expensive, although not impossible.
Just as an example, see this story on the government's plans to offshore asylum seekers to Rwanda - while acknowledging the lgbtq+ asylum seekers could be persecuted there - but moving ahead with those plans anyway.
As another example, see this MIPEX study which puts the UK almost bottom in the world (only Denmark is lower) for family reunion rights. Have a look at this comment from a few years back - the hostile environment has not substantially improved since then, except visas have become more expensive (!).
Which isn't to say things aren't difficult in the US. And it's not to say the UK is -all- bad either (I do dispute somewhat the 'red state' characterisation upthread - it's a different country, with advantages and issues all of its own - although the sentiment re -'dystopia' rhetoric is not unreasonable). Just don't fall into thinking that 'grass is greener on the other side'.
In short, migration to another country is difficult, expensive, and it's best to be aware of the issues in the new country before embarking on this.
posted by plep at 12:57 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
The culture wars you mention are not just specific to the US, although the rhetoric tends to be more violent there, and for the last 10 years or so immigration to the UK (frpm long before Brexit) has literally been subject to the 'hostile environment' policy. UK immigration tends to be difficult and expensive, although not impossible.
Just as an example, see this story on the government's plans to offshore asylum seekers to Rwanda - while acknowledging the lgbtq+ asylum seekers could be persecuted there - but moving ahead with those plans anyway.
As another example, see this MIPEX study which puts the UK almost bottom in the world (only Denmark is lower) for family reunion rights. Have a look at this comment from a few years back - the hostile environment has not substantially improved since then, except visas have become more expensive (!).
Which isn't to say things aren't difficult in the US. And it's not to say the UK is -all- bad either (I do dispute somewhat the 'red state' characterisation upthread - it's a different country, with advantages and issues all of its own - although the sentiment re -'dystopia' rhetoric is not unreasonable). Just don't fall into thinking that 'grass is greener on the other side'.
In short, migration to another country is difficult, expensive, and it's best to be aware of the issues in the new country before embarking on this.
posted by plep at 12:57 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
There is one important caveat specific to emigrating to escape possible limitations on trans rights in the US: despite the many (many!) failings of the US healthcare system, the spread of the informed consent model has made trans-related care comparatively accessible, if the financial barriers can be overcome. That model doesn't exist in many places, even in European countries that are otherwise quite progressive, and gatekeeping - often accompanied by a rather binary idea of what being trans is - is still much more common than it should be. If, for example, you or your kid needs access to hormones, or any flavor of gender-affirming surgery, or changes to legal documents, that might not be as easy to access in a surprising number of European countries - even ones that are much better than the US on any number of other metrics. Where healthcare is available, waitlists may often be very long.
I don't have a good one-stop reference for this, though you'll sporadically see discussion even on English-language trans forums. A few sources, though: Here's a rough comparison of requirements across countries from ILGA-Europe (note that that doesn't cover everything - in some countries, care may be available but may be via a limited number of providers or may require some amount of so-called "real life experience" prior to accessing it, ugh.) The intro to this article on trans healthcare in Germany also discusses the broader European context. The TGEU highlights some of the ways countries are failing to live up to the policies that exist on paper; they've got an interactive rights map too. A few of the policies are frankly horrifying - a requirement for sterilization (WTF Finland?!), or a requirement for divorce (a bunch of countries)?! And of course none of that's getting into things like the relative popularity of TERF talking points in the UK.
Unfortunately, all of this means that moving abroad in many countries that might otherwise seem appealing might still mean downgraded trans-specific rights, healthcare, and resources, compared to a very liberal area on the West Coast at the present, for a family with financial resources and good health insurance.
(Don't get me wrong: I share your concerns, and I'm actually at a career point where I need to figure out where I'm applying for jobs if I want to start my own research group. "Is it a terrible idea to consider staying in the USA" is something I think about a lot. But it's clear that a lot of countries are not where they should be in terms of support for trans issues, particularly for non-binary people. And with parties that are varying flavors of Not Great like Le Pen's National Rally, or the AfD (though thankfully they've mostly failed to drag the CDU/CSU too much further right), or even the Tories, let alone horror stories like the turn Hungary's taken under years of Orban, I'm not entirely sanguine about the odds of any particular country not getting worse in the next decade or two: the rise of nationalist revanchist right-wing movements isn't limited to the US, unfortunately, even if the flaws of our political system make it harder for us to fight them off. In Europe, in a country with EU membership, you're at least buffered by the mobility offered by Schengen, but taking advantage of that would still mean making yet another international move. Broadly, wherever I end up, aiming for the queerest, most diverse city in the queerest, most diverse state or region or country I can get a job offer in seems like my best bet, but realistically, there's no guaranteed safe option.)
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 1:04 AM on June 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't have a good one-stop reference for this, though you'll sporadically see discussion even on English-language trans forums. A few sources, though: Here's a rough comparison of requirements across countries from ILGA-Europe (note that that doesn't cover everything - in some countries, care may be available but may be via a limited number of providers or may require some amount of so-called "real life experience" prior to accessing it, ugh.) The intro to this article on trans healthcare in Germany also discusses the broader European context. The TGEU highlights some of the ways countries are failing to live up to the policies that exist on paper; they've got an interactive rights map too. A few of the policies are frankly horrifying - a requirement for sterilization (WTF Finland?!), or a requirement for divorce (a bunch of countries)?! And of course none of that's getting into things like the relative popularity of TERF talking points in the UK.
Unfortunately, all of this means that moving abroad in many countries that might otherwise seem appealing might still mean downgraded trans-specific rights, healthcare, and resources, compared to a very liberal area on the West Coast at the present, for a family with financial resources and good health insurance.
(Don't get me wrong: I share your concerns, and I'm actually at a career point where I need to figure out where I'm applying for jobs if I want to start my own research group. "Is it a terrible idea to consider staying in the USA" is something I think about a lot. But it's clear that a lot of countries are not where they should be in terms of support for trans issues, particularly for non-binary people. And with parties that are varying flavors of Not Great like Le Pen's National Rally, or the AfD (though thankfully they've mostly failed to drag the CDU/CSU too much further right), or even the Tories, let alone horror stories like the turn Hungary's taken under years of Orban, I'm not entirely sanguine about the odds of any particular country not getting worse in the next decade or two: the rise of nationalist revanchist right-wing movements isn't limited to the US, unfortunately, even if the flaws of our political system make it harder for us to fight them off. In Europe, in a country with EU membership, you're at least buffered by the mobility offered by Schengen, but taking advantage of that would still mean making yet another international move. Broadly, wherever I end up, aiming for the queerest, most diverse city in the queerest, most diverse state or region or country I can get a job offer in seems like my best bet, but realistically, there's no guaranteed safe option.)
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 1:04 AM on June 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Just to add to my comment above - MIPEX is a think tank which recently compared immigration experiences across and between countries on a variety of dimensions. This includes less traditional migration destinations in the developing world as well as the most common destinations.
As well as the family dimension I linked above, I think the anti-discrimination index is relevant here. You can see the US comes in the top half of the countries surveyed here for favourability, although not -right- at the top.
You can also see how a country can be favourable on one measure but not on another - for example, re anti-discrimination, the UK is also in the upper half (as it is for health), but for family migration right at the bottom, building a nuanced picture of where countries which are migration destinations fall globally. A tool like this -may- help with your decision-making process.
posted by plep at 1:23 AM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
As well as the family dimension I linked above, I think the anti-discrimination index is relevant here. You can see the US comes in the top half of the countries surveyed here for favourability, although not -right- at the top.
You can also see how a country can be favourable on one measure but not on another - for example, re anti-discrimination, the UK is also in the upper half (as it is for health), but for family migration right at the bottom, building a nuanced picture of where countries which are migration destinations fall globally. A tool like this -may- help with your decision-making process.
posted by plep at 1:23 AM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Historical experience suggests that the time to leave is both when others are leaving and probably slightly before you think you really need to.
As others mention, the challenge is where to go. I would rule out the idea that you can claim asylum anywhere currently. Unless you speak another language fluently already, you will find things easiest to navigate and rebuild your lives in an English speaking country. This means that you are looking at Ireland, the UK, Australia, NZ and Canada. If you work in IT or another English-language dominated profession and are willing to learn a new European language, you could consider the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway and possibly Germany. That is a relatively short list of countries.
I can speak to the UK. It is not clear whether trans rights/acceptance are going to move forwards or backwards in the short term. Scotland may or may not be better in this regard than England (Wales is typically in between the two and Northern Ireland worse for all sorts of reasons). I live here and am confident that eventually things will get to the right place, but that eventually could take a long time. It is very difficult to say whether it will be easier or harder to live here than the US west coast in the meantime. Immigration is deliberately difficult and costs money. If you do not qualify for a specific visa then trying to find a workaround will be a high risk approach, US acquaintances of mine have been effectively forced to leave the country due to visa difficulties.
Ireland is a more progressive country than the UK. It has a smaller economy so some kinds of jobs are ok to find and some really not (teaching, for example, is incredibly difficult to break into and requires fluent Irish). If one of you has an Irish grandparent then you may well be able to acquire Irish (and so EU) citizenship. Apply now to register your birth and get citizenship as it is currently taking 2 years to process. If that's not an option, then you will need to look at the work visa rules.
Australia, Canada and NZ have been the only English-speaking developed economies to actively encourage some kinds of immigration over the last 20 years. Each scheme is quite specific, you can look at all of them to see if you would qualify for any. They typically prefer applicants in their 30s. As a US citizen, you may be able to take advantage of reciprocal visa programmes in either Canada or Australia. It is speaking with a broad brush, but NZ is usually more liberal than Australia but has a much smaller economy and only one large city. Others will know Canada better than me.
posted by plonkee at 2:03 AM on June 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
As others mention, the challenge is where to go. I would rule out the idea that you can claim asylum anywhere currently. Unless you speak another language fluently already, you will find things easiest to navigate and rebuild your lives in an English speaking country. This means that you are looking at Ireland, the UK, Australia, NZ and Canada. If you work in IT or another English-language dominated profession and are willing to learn a new European language, you could consider the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway and possibly Germany. That is a relatively short list of countries.
I can speak to the UK. It is not clear whether trans rights/acceptance are going to move forwards or backwards in the short term. Scotland may or may not be better in this regard than England (Wales is typically in between the two and Northern Ireland worse for all sorts of reasons). I live here and am confident that eventually things will get to the right place, but that eventually could take a long time. It is very difficult to say whether it will be easier or harder to live here than the US west coast in the meantime. Immigration is deliberately difficult and costs money. If you do not qualify for a specific visa then trying to find a workaround will be a high risk approach, US acquaintances of mine have been effectively forced to leave the country due to visa difficulties.
Ireland is a more progressive country than the UK. It has a smaller economy so some kinds of jobs are ok to find and some really not (teaching, for example, is incredibly difficult to break into and requires fluent Irish). If one of you has an Irish grandparent then you may well be able to acquire Irish (and so EU) citizenship. Apply now to register your birth and get citizenship as it is currently taking 2 years to process. If that's not an option, then you will need to look at the work visa rules.
Australia, Canada and NZ have been the only English-speaking developed economies to actively encourage some kinds of immigration over the last 20 years. Each scheme is quite specific, you can look at all of them to see if you would qualify for any. They typically prefer applicants in their 30s. As a US citizen, you may be able to take advantage of reciprocal visa programmes in either Canada or Australia. It is speaking with a broad brush, but NZ is usually more liberal than Australia but has a much smaller economy and only one large city. Others will know Canada better than me.
posted by plonkee at 2:03 AM on June 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Start the research, the applications, and everything else you would need to relocate now. In particular, make sure everyone has a passport — I got mine renewed last year, and there’s a backlog. It took months to get a simple renewal.
Once all the applications, etc., are in place, you can always postpone, or simply change your mind and stay. You might lose some money, but I’d consider it the type of “lost money” as any other insurance policy.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:05 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Once all the applications, etc., are in place, you can always postpone, or simply change your mind and stay. You might lose some money, but I’d consider it the type of “lost money” as any other insurance policy.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:05 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
At this point, I would not leave unless there is another country that is specifically appealing--i.e. if you can do it from a place of running to something, not running from something, so you don't end up feeling like you're in exile. I would also spend some time looking really carefully at whether countries you perceive as better the the US are actually going to be better than the right parts of the West Coast of the US. [I am a visibly gender nonconforming Jew who's lived in the Bay area & has relatives who left Europe before WW2 & who did not. This stuff has been on my mind in recent years.]
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:11 AM on June 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:11 AM on June 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
The other thing to consider in timing, is that you probably need move before your child reaches a certain age. Mostly, they need to be under 18 to qualify for a visa, but in terms of schooling and university, I think under 16 is probably ok but under 14 is better. If they would need to learn a language then more time is needed to learn the language well enough to ensure that they have the same range of post-education opportunities available to them that they would otherwise have had. I read research that suggested that it takes between 6 and 10 years for children's school performance in an L2 language to 'catch up' even though they might be perceived as 'playground fluent' within months.
posted by plonkee at 4:36 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 4:36 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
What I'm worried about above and beyond the banning of trans healthcare: banning trans people from any employment that can be construed as youth-adjacent with "youth" interpreted very broadly and the seizure of trans people's kids. Evangelicals are desperate to take people's kids; once the Republicans are passing Texas-like laws at the federal level I am seriously worried. Without getting into really dark stuff, I don't think that blue states are going to stand up to the feds on this issue.
Gun culture and paramilitaries are another thing that worries me.
And will transition related care being illegal turn into "we won't treat you at the ER because that could be construed as transition related care and we could lose our licenses"?
If you have valuable tech skills (which is maybe what you're talking about) I would imagine the easiest path isn't asylum or "emigrating to somewhere vaguely like the US in the Anglosphere", it's "get recruited into a job in Vietnam or Mexico on a working visa" and the point would be that as a heavily recruited foreigner you will be safer. If I had tech skills and no elderly relatives, that's what I'd do; indeed, I'd do the "use my teaching experience to get whatever teaching job in a provincial city" strategy now.
I think people are reacting like the point of leaving is to replicate your life here somewhere where trans people are openly affirmed when the point is to leave for a place where you can go to ground, be discreet and be safe.
posted by Frowner at 4:54 AM on June 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Gun culture and paramilitaries are another thing that worries me.
And will transition related care being illegal turn into "we won't treat you at the ER because that could be construed as transition related care and we could lose our licenses"?
If you have valuable tech skills (which is maybe what you're talking about) I would imagine the easiest path isn't asylum or "emigrating to somewhere vaguely like the US in the Anglosphere", it's "get recruited into a job in Vietnam or Mexico on a working visa" and the point would be that as a heavily recruited foreigner you will be safer. If I had tech skills and no elderly relatives, that's what I'd do; indeed, I'd do the "use my teaching experience to get whatever teaching job in a provincial city" strategy now.
I think people are reacting like the point of leaving is to replicate your life here somewhere where trans people are openly affirmed when the point is to leave for a place where you can go to ground, be discreet and be safe.
posted by Frowner at 4:54 AM on June 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Malta is worth considering, it is very LGBT friendly.
posted by Lanark at 5:02 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Lanark at 5:02 AM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
it's "get recruited into a job in Vietnam or Mexico on a working visa" and the point would be that as a heavily recruited foreigner you will be safer
I'm not sure that strategy works as well when you also have a kid to consider. I was reading the OP as that the kid in question is (potentially?) gender non-conforming and was thinking that they would be better off somewhere that is trans affirming rather than somewhere they need to be in the closet. Regardless, the kid will grow up and need to have an independent legal residency somewhere. Lots of people encounter problems when they grow up in a country they do not have the right to live in as an adult.
posted by plonkee at 5:27 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure that strategy works as well when you also have a kid to consider. I was reading the OP as that the kid in question is (potentially?) gender non-conforming and was thinking that they would be better off somewhere that is trans affirming rather than somewhere they need to be in the closet. Regardless, the kid will grow up and need to have an independent legal residency somewhere. Lots of people encounter problems when they grow up in a country they do not have the right to live in as an adult.
posted by plonkee at 5:27 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
As the parent of a transgender teen in the US, we think and talk a lot about the future and where we should go.
While emigration comes up occasionally, I personally have done it and… it’s hard in ten different dimensions, even with a personal safety net in place. It's precarious in an entirely different set of ways.
And when we really get down and look at the actual rights and protections in various places, there are few countries which provide as much protection as a good progressive US state. So, for right now, unless things change significantly, we're staying in the US. For us, we're moving to Colorado, it's not quite as up there as, say, Nevada for trans rights, but it's a place where we can all live and work. (Which Nevada wasn't for us, but might be for you.) As mentioned above, the local community is important. There are cities in red states where I know the community has our back, and cities in blue states where we would watch our backs. That research into which is which is harder to do than a few Wikipedia searches, but can be done.
nthing the above about asylum seeking. Do not count on it, it's unlikely to be a real thing.
posted by Ookseer at 6:00 AM on June 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
While emigration comes up occasionally, I personally have done it and… it’s hard in ten different dimensions, even with a personal safety net in place. It's precarious in an entirely different set of ways.
And when we really get down and look at the actual rights and protections in various places, there are few countries which provide as much protection as a good progressive US state. So, for right now, unless things change significantly, we're staying in the US. For us, we're moving to Colorado, it's not quite as up there as, say, Nevada for trans rights, but it's a place where we can all live and work. (Which Nevada wasn't for us, but might be for you.) As mentioned above, the local community is important. There are cities in red states where I know the community has our back, and cities in blue states where we would watch our backs. That research into which is which is harder to do than a few Wikipedia searches, but can be done.
nthing the above about asylum seeking. Do not count on it, it's unlikely to be a real thing.
posted by Ookseer at 6:00 AM on June 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
If you're thinking about coming to Canada you should look at the Express Entry program and check your CRS score, which is based on your education and skills. If you or your spouse are a high-demand tech worker it would likely put you in a good position. There's also the 'golden ticket' which requires being extremely wealthy, I'm assuming you don't qualify for that. You could come as a student but you'd need to pay full price tuition and being able to stay afterwards is not guaranteed.
I'd dispute the idea that Canada is unsafe for trans people outside of the 3 big cities, many of my friends live in other places. I know trans people in PEI, Calgary, Nelson, rural Vancouver island, etc. But if you want the most trans-friendly area you'll want to be in a progressive neighbourhood of a large city. And you'll probably want to be in a large city for job reasons. Do some research on which way the area votes and that'll give you a good index of how progressive it is. Unless you already speak fluent French you should not look at Quebec.
If you need to change your name/gender marker do that now and get a fresh passport before you start the process, otherwise it'll be so incredibly complicated and fraught. It can be really difficult to find a primary care doctor in many places but some cities have specific trans-focused clinics that will prioritize you on their wait list, or you can go private. Walk-in clinics will also renew prescriptions if that's all you need. Transition surgery wait times are insane for the public system, but there are private options for surgeries. Basically if you have money everything is easier including transitioning and immigrating, lol.
Do not count on Canada in particular ever offering asylum to any US citizen. I wrote out a long thing about the political reasons why that would never happen but it's not super relevant to your circumstances today. It seems like every few months an American on here is talking about trying to claim asylum somewhere else, as others have said it will likely never happen. I feel like there is a real lack of awareness in the US about the way asylum works. The idea that you can just automatically get it if you're under threat is misguided to say the least.
posted by 100kb at 8:32 AM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'd dispute the idea that Canada is unsafe for trans people outside of the 3 big cities, many of my friends live in other places. I know trans people in PEI, Calgary, Nelson, rural Vancouver island, etc. But if you want the most trans-friendly area you'll want to be in a progressive neighbourhood of a large city. And you'll probably want to be in a large city for job reasons. Do some research on which way the area votes and that'll give you a good index of how progressive it is. Unless you already speak fluent French you should not look at Quebec.
If you need to change your name/gender marker do that now and get a fresh passport before you start the process, otherwise it'll be so incredibly complicated and fraught. It can be really difficult to find a primary care doctor in many places but some cities have specific trans-focused clinics that will prioritize you on their wait list, or you can go private. Walk-in clinics will also renew prescriptions if that's all you need. Transition surgery wait times are insane for the public system, but there are private options for surgeries. Basically if you have money everything is easier including transitioning and immigrating, lol.
Do not count on Canada in particular ever offering asylum to any US citizen. I wrote out a long thing about the political reasons why that would never happen but it's not super relevant to your circumstances today. It seems like every few months an American on here is talking about trying to claim asylum somewhere else, as others have said it will likely never happen. I feel like there is a real lack of awareness in the US about the way asylum works. The idea that you can just automatically get it if you're under threat is misguided to say the least.
posted by 100kb at 8:32 AM on June 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
In addition to other factors mentioned, you might want to take into account the effects of climate change on various candidate destinations. The Economic Impact of Climate Change, from a group at Stanford, provides an interactive map where you can see the predicted economic effects in the coming decades on various countries. The data is from 2015, unfortunately, but as a rough guide for these purposes, I think it's probably still okay.
You can use this in different ways. For example, you could estimate how many years of life you and your partner have left, and avoid a country that is going to be in deep shit when you're old and need, e.g., government-supported health care. A separate estimate might be good for your child, but your child will hopefully have the option of moving again once they become an adult with their own plans, so it may not be as important for them.
(Note that some countries are a little hard to find on that particular world map projection, but you can use the pull-down menu in the upper right to focus on a specific country.)
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:03 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
You can use this in different ways. For example, you could estimate how many years of life you and your partner have left, and avoid a country that is going to be in deep shit when you're old and need, e.g., government-supported health care. A separate estimate might be good for your child, but your child will hopefully have the option of moving again once they become an adult with their own plans, so it may not be as important for them.
(Note that some countries are a little hard to find on that particular world map projection, but you can use the pull-down menu in the upper right to focus on a specific country.)
posted by StrawberryPie at 10:03 AM on June 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm trans and live in a blue state. I wouldn't go yet. A lot of the western European countries you might have in mind are not as trans friendly as you might think and do not make it easy for trans people to access care. Gatekeeping and long wait times appear par for the course. Denying care to adult trans people is still a fringe viewpoint in the US, and even if there was a push for this to happen on the federal level I think blue states would fight it tooth and nail. There are a lot of things about the US that are shit, but there are few places better to be a trans person than a liberal part of the US. Stay and fight.
posted by Shellybeans at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Shellybeans at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Go now if you can. Don't wait until your area becomes like my area (Iowa, USA). DO NOT WAIT until the good place gets bad, because at that point things will be going downhill so rapidly you may not be able to get out.
posted by epj at 3:24 PM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by epj at 3:24 PM on June 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
When is it time to consider leaving? Is it better to go sooner before things really go to shit, or to try and claim asylum later on?If you're considering it, go ahead and consider it seriously now. It's difficult to "time the market" on things going to shit but you can boost your sense of security and preparedness by acting now to generate more options for yourself and your family.
Emigration comes with a lot of paperwork and good documentation will make your life easier. If your official documents do not clearly validate your identified gender and your legal relationships to your spouse and child, fix that right now. Are any of your passports expiring within the next year? Renew them now.
Will you need extra cash on hand to pay for travel, legal fees, or moving costs, or to show means of independent financial support? Start setting that aside now.
Do not count on applying for asylum. Many claims are not accepted and you and your family may not be well treated while your application is considered.
I concur with other comments regarding otherwise liberal democratic countries not necessarily being an upgrade over the US West Coast states with respect to transgender rights and healthcare access. Talk to an immigration lawyer familiar with your countries of interest to get advice for your family's situation.
If you are an IT/software worker or other technically or scientifically skilled worker, congratulations! You have great options for immigration to some countries in Europe (particularly UK, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands) via an employer-sponsored skilled work visa. If your profession doesn't offer you a path to immigration, you can also look at visas aimed at freelancers or entrepreneurs (for example, the Netherlands' DAFT program) or at visa by investment programs (these are very expensive). Taiwan—fairly progressive for LGBT rights at least on paper, though I have no knowledge of what things are like there in practice—has an interesting "golden visa" program offering 1-3 years of residency for professionals and their dependent family members that comes with open work rights, i.e., no requirement for employer sponsorship.
I emigrated from the US to Ireland on a skilled worker visa last year. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about that, welcome to MeMail me.
posted by 4rtemis at 5:14 PM on June 6, 2022
I'm trans and my family fled Europe just ahead of the Holocaust. I don't think it's time to go yet (unless you want to), and I think history supports that.
When people talk about getting out in time, they're essentially worried about being trapped. For example, here are some things, inspired by the history of various countries, that might trap trans people here:
If you think one of those is on the horizon, and especially if you have a plausible story about how it can happen, then now is the time. Research places to go, hire a lawyer who can give immigration advice, look into jobs, study for the citizenship exam. Treat it like a project. Just sitting and worrying isn't actually preparing.
I don't think any of them are on the horizon. As grim as shit is, I'm confident I'll still have US citizenship, money, and the ability to get on a bus to Canada in two or three years. But I've got my eyes open, and if one of those scenarios starts looking likely to me, I'm heading for the door.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:21 PM on June 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
When people talk about getting out in time, they're essentially worried about being trapped. For example, here are some things, inspired by the history of various countries, that might trap trans people here:
- The ordinary things they would do to afford international travel become illegal or impossible for trans people.
- Trans people are put in a situation where they can't reasonably avoid imprisonment.
- The US government invalidates the passports of all trans people.
- It becomes illegal for trans people to take money outside the US, even if they can leave.
- Transit companies stop accepting trans passengers.
- There's a massive refugee crisis and other countries are overwhelmed. They stop accepting trans people across their borders.
- It becomes illegal for parents to take their trans kid across a state line or out of the country.
- Interstate travel gets restricted in some other way that could strand you in an unfriendly state.
- Relatives who stay behind can be punished if it becomes known that a trans person left.
If you think one of those is on the horizon, and especially if you have a plausible story about how it can happen, then now is the time. Research places to go, hire a lawyer who can give immigration advice, look into jobs, study for the citizenship exam. Treat it like a project. Just sitting and worrying isn't actually preparing.
I don't think any of them are on the horizon. As grim as shit is, I'm confident I'll still have US citizenship, money, and the ability to get on a bus to Canada in two or three years. But I've got my eyes open, and if one of those scenarios starts looking likely to me, I'm heading for the door.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:21 PM on June 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
I am a grandchild of Holocaust survivors and while I am not trans, the question of how to know when to go and where to go is something I have thought about for as long as I can remember. It feels like part of my genetic and emotional heritage.
I am not feeling like it's time to go, but I think it's never a bad time to open your options.
* If you are eligible for passports from any other countries via heritage, start the process for getting them. The best way to get out of somewhere is to have a passport to go to somewhere else.
* If you are able to open and maintain and fund a bank account somewhere else, consider it. Back then, people sewed jewels into clothes linings that they could then use for bribes or to help them travel or resettle. To me, foreign bank accounts are a modern version of that. It also doesn't hurt to have the traditional version of that - some amount of cash or wealth that is handy and portable in case of need.
* Build and maintain relationships with people in places where you could potentially get to. Immigration and resettling is terribly hard under the best of circumstances but having people and community to land with - and potentially to help from the outside - can make a huge difference.
* Build and maintain relationships with people close by who may be able to be your allies and help in case of need.
(I don't mean these last two in a mercenary or fake way. The relationships are good for their own sake, and for you to potentially be allies to someone else as well).
* Network and maintain professional relationships both inside and outside the country that could be useful to your livelihood.
* Make sure you have your paperwork in order, and keep handy copies of important documentation including not only things like birth certificates but also diplomas and transcripts. Official copies where possible.
These are all things I have in the back of my mind quite a lot of the time.
All that said, even if it's not really time to go in terms of political persecution or threat to personal safety, if you and your partner feel done with the USA and just *want* to live somewhere else, that's a plenty good enough reason. It doesn't have to be planned to be permanent either, and even if you come back, the experience may help lay the groundwork for a future successful emigration.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am not feeling like it's time to go, but I think it's never a bad time to open your options.
* If you are eligible for passports from any other countries via heritage, start the process for getting them. The best way to get out of somewhere is to have a passport to go to somewhere else.
* If you are able to open and maintain and fund a bank account somewhere else, consider it. Back then, people sewed jewels into clothes linings that they could then use for bribes or to help them travel or resettle. To me, foreign bank accounts are a modern version of that. It also doesn't hurt to have the traditional version of that - some amount of cash or wealth that is handy and portable in case of need.
* Build and maintain relationships with people in places where you could potentially get to. Immigration and resettling is terribly hard under the best of circumstances but having people and community to land with - and potentially to help from the outside - can make a huge difference.
* Build and maintain relationships with people close by who may be able to be your allies and help in case of need.
(I don't mean these last two in a mercenary or fake way. The relationships are good for their own sake, and for you to potentially be allies to someone else as well).
* Network and maintain professional relationships both inside and outside the country that could be useful to your livelihood.
* Make sure you have your paperwork in order, and keep handy copies of important documentation including not only things like birth certificates but also diplomas and transcripts. Official copies where possible.
These are all things I have in the back of my mind quite a lot of the time.
All that said, even if it's not really time to go in terms of political persecution or threat to personal safety, if you and your partner feel done with the USA and just *want* to live somewhere else, that's a plenty good enough reason. It doesn't have to be planned to be permanent either, and even if you come back, the experience may help lay the groundwork for a future successful emigration.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
as a queer person I would want to live in Toronto, Vancouver, maybe Montreal, and that is it.
As a out/visibly queer Canadian living rurally for decades I would disagree. My village has a gay pride parade, the town my children went to school (population 2,000 people) had three out trans students, and now I am on the other side of 50 I can say I have never felt discrimination personally because of my queerness. My partner is female but appears male and has encountered some limited difficulty with prejudiced individuals (almost all bathroom-related), but nothing hugely major.
In addition to the list above of the major cities in Canada, Kingston, was noted as the census tract with the most gender diverse city in Ontario.
Legal entry into Canada is also possible through the NAFTA/CUSMA visa program if you are qualified in one of the 60 professions and have a job offer. Remaining in Canada would make you eligible for Permanent Residence Status. Another way into Canada is to attend post-secondary school and then apply for PR. Age is definately a factor in immigrating to most countries and I would immigrate sooner rather than later.
posted by saucysault at 4:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
As a out/visibly queer Canadian living rurally for decades I would disagree. My village has a gay pride parade, the town my children went to school (population 2,000 people) had three out trans students, and now I am on the other side of 50 I can say I have never felt discrimination personally because of my queerness. My partner is female but appears male and has encountered some limited difficulty with prejudiced individuals (almost all bathroom-related), but nothing hugely major.
In addition to the list above of the major cities in Canada, Kingston, was noted as the census tract with the most gender diverse city in Ontario.
Legal entry into Canada is also possible through the NAFTA/CUSMA visa program if you are qualified in one of the 60 professions and have a job offer. Remaining in Canada would make you eligible for Permanent Residence Status. Another way into Canada is to attend post-secondary school and then apply for PR. Age is definately a factor in immigrating to most countries and I would immigrate sooner rather than later.
posted by saucysault at 4:00 PM on June 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
my work is immigration-adjacent (being deliberately vague) and going to approach this from that perspective.
I think you should at the very least start planning now.
You're going to need to select (a) countries that you can get a work visa for, and (b) countries that are reasonably trans-friendly and (c) countries that you want to live in. That might not be a very long list. If your spouse wanted to work in the future, you'd have to consider whether that would be possible in the country you move to (in some countries, they'd need their own job).
You'd need to consider whether you can get a visa that allows you to work anywhere, or if the country only offers visas that are tied to specific jobs/employers. If the latter, you'd need to start looking into job applications.
You'd need to consider health aspects - are you all in good health? Some countries won't let in people who might be a "burden" on the health system. In some cases, that rule applies even if you can, and will, pay for your healthcare yourself.
You'd need to consider processing times for visas, and the risk of borders being closed again. It could be quite a long process to go through.
So let's say you wait: you're likely going to need to provide health and criminal clearances from the US. If you were coming to my country, criminal clearances are done by the FBI. Worst case: what if the authorities flat-out refuse to do that for you?
Turning to asylum: yeah, if things get really bad in the US you would likely meet the requirements. But: you've got to actually get to another country to claim asylum. Again, what if some fascist US government just decides that trans people don't get to travel?
Alternatively, let's say you can get flights somewhere, go on holiday and apply for asylum as soon as you're through the airport. In some countries, you wouldn't be able to work - you'd have a tiny allowance to live on while you waited for months/years for your claim to go through. Anywhere you went, you'd be starting a new life with a limited amount of stuff - just what you were carrying in your suitcases (and it had better be things that you would take on holiday, or you're going to look really suspicious at immigration).
You'd also have to demonstrate that you had a well-founded fear of persecution and that there was no feasible internal relocation alternative in the USA (e.g. it's not enough to say things are terrible in Texas if you could live safely in California; or even that things were bad in LA if you could live in San Francisco).
Finally, the worst case hypothetical there is that the USA puts extensive pressure on other western countries not to grant asylum to US citizens. Who's to say that we'd stand up to them?
So yeah, I would personally not be relying on asylum as an option. If I genuinely thought things might get really bad, I would be starting research now, so I had a plan ready to go if I needed to.
posted by Pink Frost at 7:31 PM on June 11, 2022
I think you should at the very least start planning now.
You're going to need to select (a) countries that you can get a work visa for, and (b) countries that are reasonably trans-friendly and (c) countries that you want to live in. That might not be a very long list. If your spouse wanted to work in the future, you'd have to consider whether that would be possible in the country you move to (in some countries, they'd need their own job).
You'd need to consider whether you can get a visa that allows you to work anywhere, or if the country only offers visas that are tied to specific jobs/employers. If the latter, you'd need to start looking into job applications.
You'd need to consider health aspects - are you all in good health? Some countries won't let in people who might be a "burden" on the health system. In some cases, that rule applies even if you can, and will, pay for your healthcare yourself.
You'd need to consider processing times for visas, and the risk of borders being closed again. It could be quite a long process to go through.
So let's say you wait: you're likely going to need to provide health and criminal clearances from the US. If you were coming to my country, criminal clearances are done by the FBI. Worst case: what if the authorities flat-out refuse to do that for you?
Turning to asylum: yeah, if things get really bad in the US you would likely meet the requirements. But: you've got to actually get to another country to claim asylum. Again, what if some fascist US government just decides that trans people don't get to travel?
Alternatively, let's say you can get flights somewhere, go on holiday and apply for asylum as soon as you're through the airport. In some countries, you wouldn't be able to work - you'd have a tiny allowance to live on while you waited for months/years for your claim to go through. Anywhere you went, you'd be starting a new life with a limited amount of stuff - just what you were carrying in your suitcases (and it had better be things that you would take on holiday, or you're going to look really suspicious at immigration).
You'd also have to demonstrate that you had a well-founded fear of persecution and that there was no feasible internal relocation alternative in the USA (e.g. it's not enough to say things are terrible in Texas if you could live safely in California; or even that things were bad in LA if you could live in San Francisco).
Finally, the worst case hypothetical there is that the USA puts extensive pressure on other western countries not to grant asylum to US citizens. Who's to say that we'd stand up to them?
So yeah, I would personally not be relying on asylum as an option. If I genuinely thought things might get really bad, I would be starting research now, so I had a plan ready to go if I needed to.
posted by Pink Frost at 7:31 PM on June 11, 2022
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posted by Gymnopedist at 8:02 PM on June 5, 2022 [9 favorites]