Office Manager vs Department Manager
May 29, 2022 2:40 AM Subscribe
I am a new(ish) office manager for a very small company (~20 people). A department manager is having a hard time learning their own job, managing their own people, and their communication style is rubbing people the wrong way.
As office manager, I cover HR, AR/AP, tech support, building maintenance, and whatever other little things we don't have anyone to cover. I've been in this position for 2 years, and am a Geriatric Millennial/Young Xer. Most of the team is younger than me by at least 10 years.
About a year ago, we hired a Gen Z sales & customer service manager. We'll call them S. S comes from Big City and Big Corp. We are a small, socially-conscious company running on thin budgets. I don't think S has been a people manager before.
S is nice enough, though gives off the mean/popular-in-high-school vibe (and is seemingly hiring only the same in their department). But S has struggled to learn their job or the scope of their departments' responsibilities. I have run out of professional ways to tell S that I don't know how their department's processes work, or even what their processes are. S has had 2 people (with the company longer than S) quit and walk out with vital historical data and process knowledge. S has managed to disperse several of their departments' tasks onto other departments.
S and I scheduled a meeting for S to show me a piece of software their department is using because I thought it might be useful to me. It was concerning that S couldn't answer some basic questions, but the Big Red Flag was when I asked about user administration: How many users do you have? How much are paying per user? Can you set me up as an admin? S could not answer. We found help documentation to figure out how to set a user as an admin. S opened the help doc, said "Too many words", and closed it. I was too dumbfounded to respond in the moment.
S regularly responds to emails asking questions that are answered in the (short, simple) email they're replying to. S also asks the same question in person, on Slack, on phone calls. No matter how the answer is phrased, and rephrased, and repeated, several people on the team are tired of answering the same questions over and over. S seems incapable of transferring information learned in one situation to another, similar situation. I often find myself saying some version of "Yes, S, all customers have a process for this. No, I don't know what that process is because I am not on your team."
S also rubs me, and others, wrong with their communication style. I can only sum this up as Big Corp Big Sales Ego. I, and others outside of S's department, feel as if S is trying to micromanage everyone. S rarely asks another department supervisor, but will go directly to another employee (whose workload S has no idea of) and give them "high priority" tasks which may or may not be within said employee's scope. S acts like everyone should drop everything because S's department needs something. There is never a "please", let alone a "do you have time for..."?
S has also been very loud about wanting to move to fully, or mostly, remote working. From my perspective, this is not necessarily a bad thing. But I don't think it's a good idea when you can barely communicate in person, and more than a sentence is "too many words", and sometimes you don't even comprehend a simple sentence. S also has Grand Ideas about Incentives that are always waaaay unrealistic with our budget.
This is all leaving aside the age-old battle between Sales and Accounts Receivable: "We made a big sale!" / "Your big sale's payment is late! Your big sale doesn't count until it's paid!" I've played that game for the last 10+ years, so nothing new there. Except that S thinks all numbers/math (as well as terms like ACH and deduction) are "accounting" and that's "not [S's] strong point".
My direct/only supervisor is the founder/owner. He's actually pretty easy to work for, though he borders on toxic positivity, which is.... less than helpful here. He believes anyone can learn anything, and that we (the larger team) need to communicate better with S about how they are upsetting us. He says S will "settle in" and "adapt". He is aware of the Big Corp Big Sales tendency to manage outside their lane as a general concept, but is unhelpful as to how to manage that as a coworker.
I don't want to quit this company if I don't have to, and that wouldn't help others having the same problems with the same person. I don't have any supervisory authority over S or anyone. Do you have any advice to help S acclimate? Or at least make working with S a little less stressful? Do you have a long list of "professional ways to say X"? (Where X equals everything from "stay in your lane" to "I'm sorry, but that won't be possible")
I'm too young to be shaking my cane and yelling at the kids to get off my lawn, but some days I wonder...
As office manager, I cover HR, AR/AP, tech support, building maintenance, and whatever other little things we don't have anyone to cover. I've been in this position for 2 years, and am a Geriatric Millennial/Young Xer. Most of the team is younger than me by at least 10 years.
About a year ago, we hired a Gen Z sales & customer service manager. We'll call them S. S comes from Big City and Big Corp. We are a small, socially-conscious company running on thin budgets. I don't think S has been a people manager before.
S is nice enough, though gives off the mean/popular-in-high-school vibe (and is seemingly hiring only the same in their department). But S has struggled to learn their job or the scope of their departments' responsibilities. I have run out of professional ways to tell S that I don't know how their department's processes work, or even what their processes are. S has had 2 people (with the company longer than S) quit and walk out with vital historical data and process knowledge. S has managed to disperse several of their departments' tasks onto other departments.
S and I scheduled a meeting for S to show me a piece of software their department is using because I thought it might be useful to me. It was concerning that S couldn't answer some basic questions, but the Big Red Flag was when I asked about user administration: How many users do you have? How much are paying per user? Can you set me up as an admin? S could not answer. We found help documentation to figure out how to set a user as an admin. S opened the help doc, said "Too many words", and closed it. I was too dumbfounded to respond in the moment.
S regularly responds to emails asking questions that are answered in the (short, simple) email they're replying to. S also asks the same question in person, on Slack, on phone calls. No matter how the answer is phrased, and rephrased, and repeated, several people on the team are tired of answering the same questions over and over. S seems incapable of transferring information learned in one situation to another, similar situation. I often find myself saying some version of "Yes, S, all customers have a process for this. No, I don't know what that process is because I am not on your team."
S also rubs me, and others, wrong with their communication style. I can only sum this up as Big Corp Big Sales Ego. I, and others outside of S's department, feel as if S is trying to micromanage everyone. S rarely asks another department supervisor, but will go directly to another employee (whose workload S has no idea of) and give them "high priority" tasks which may or may not be within said employee's scope. S acts like everyone should drop everything because S's department needs something. There is never a "please", let alone a "do you have time for..."?
S has also been very loud about wanting to move to fully, or mostly, remote working. From my perspective, this is not necessarily a bad thing. But I don't think it's a good idea when you can barely communicate in person, and more than a sentence is "too many words", and sometimes you don't even comprehend a simple sentence. S also has Grand Ideas about Incentives that are always waaaay unrealistic with our budget.
This is all leaving aside the age-old battle between Sales and Accounts Receivable: "We made a big sale!" / "Your big sale's payment is late! Your big sale doesn't count until it's paid!" I've played that game for the last 10+ years, so nothing new there. Except that S thinks all numbers/math (as well as terms like ACH and deduction) are "accounting" and that's "not [S's] strong point".
My direct/only supervisor is the founder/owner. He's actually pretty easy to work for, though he borders on toxic positivity, which is.... less than helpful here. He believes anyone can learn anything, and that we (the larger team) need to communicate better with S about how they are upsetting us. He says S will "settle in" and "adapt". He is aware of the Big Corp Big Sales tendency to manage outside their lane as a general concept, but is unhelpful as to how to manage that as a coworker.
I don't want to quit this company if I don't have to, and that wouldn't help others having the same problems with the same person. I don't have any supervisory authority over S or anyone. Do you have any advice to help S acclimate? Or at least make working with S a little less stressful? Do you have a long list of "professional ways to say X"? (Where X equals everything from "stay in your lane" to "I'm sorry, but that won't be possible")
I'm too young to be shaking my cane and yelling at the kids to get off my lawn, but some days I wonder...
I agree with mskyle. Try to figure out what you're really bothered by here and what the real problem is for the company.
S's incompetence and annoyingness as a thing in itself? Quit.
S is causing harm to the profits of the company? Explain this to the big boss.
S is causing corporate culture to move in a direction that's toxic and explicitly not what the company wants? Tell the big boss, maybe, but don't necessarily expect a favorable resolution.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:45 AM on May 29, 2022
S's incompetence and annoyingness as a thing in itself? Quit.
S is causing harm to the profits of the company? Explain this to the big boss.
S is causing corporate culture to move in a direction that's toxic and explicitly not what the company wants? Tell the big boss, maybe, but don't necessarily expect a favorable resolution.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:45 AM on May 29, 2022
One other thought. If you wanted to be sneaky, you could try to implement some process for 360 reviews. If everyone being supervised by S says they hate S, maybe that matters. Maybe.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:46 AM on May 29, 2022
posted by J. Wilson at 4:46 AM on May 29, 2022
[re “Salesguy”: OP didn’t specify S’s gender]
posted by fabius at 5:08 AM on May 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by fabius at 5:08 AM on May 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
I have worked at a company that was otherwise lovely culture-wise, but the owners for some reason really believed that Salesbro behavior was the best way to be sales. They would hire a Salesbro, support him while he tried to destroy our company culture, and then eventually fire him after enough other people quit or customers complained, only to hire a different flavor of Salesbro a few months later.
Getting rid of them was the only thing that worked, and showing bad results was the only thing that convinced the owners to get rid of them. Bad results did include valued team members leaving, though. I would lean on documenting ways S is damaging the team, both financially and in objective, measurable cultural ways.
posted by gideonfrog at 6:44 AM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Getting rid of them was the only thing that worked, and showing bad results was the only thing that convinced the owners to get rid of them. Bad results did include valued team members leaving, though. I would lean on documenting ways S is damaging the team, both financially and in objective, measurable cultural ways.
posted by gideonfrog at 6:44 AM on May 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
[re “Salesguy”: OP didn’t specify S’s gender]
Thank you for correcting me, ugh it is at least the second time this week I've made that mistake on AskMeFi and I feel like the person who gets stumped by the "the doctor was the boy's MOTHER" riddle.
posted by mskyle at 6:45 AM on May 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Thank you for correcting me, ugh it is at least the second time this week I've made that mistake on AskMeFi and I feel like the person who gets stumped by the "the doctor was the boy's MOTHER" riddle.
posted by mskyle at 6:45 AM on May 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
S sounds frustrating to work with in general, but it's not clear to me from the post what the direct impact on your work is. Identifying that and then explicitly expressing that to your manager as well as giving direct feedback to S are really the only potentially effective things you can do besides quit.
In the past I've been so baffled by someone else's incompetence that I've failed to give direct feedback because I assumed they must know better anyway and not care, or that they aren't going to be capable of improving. But neither of those assumptions are fair and they give you no chance of changing anything.
So, direct feedback: "Hey S, when you ask me these questions about your own department it interrupts my work and causes delays." Or "S, I'm concerned that you don't know who has access to this software, that's a serious security risk." (Note that in the latter you're focusing on the impact of the situation, not your judgement about their attitude about reading documentation--I agree it's ridiculous, but you don't have much standing to give feedback about a peer's attitude, just the impact of their behavior on your work.)
You could offer to help as part of that feedback above, like: "Can I share some suggestions for how we've documented this in the past, so it's easier you to find next time?" or "Here, let me connect you with the IT Person who can help you administer this better."
That might be enough to tell your manager that you've tried, and then outline to him (your manager) what the impact is. "Manager, I have offered to help in specific ways X, Y, & Z, but S keeps asking me the same questions. This delays my work, which causes [consequence]."
If you want to go a little farther to try to help S learn a little more, you could respond the way I do to newish members of my team who are just past the initial handholding onboarding stage: "I don't know, but you can likely find it it [in X resource]" or "I don't know, but if I had this question I'd ask Amy, she's the expert". It might or might not teach them how to find the information themselves, but it will hopefully teach them to stop asking you because you won't give them easy answers. You have to be firm about leaving at that instead of doing that legwork for them, though.
But you're under no obligation to do that, and I wouldn't do it for more than a few weeks, tops.
Beyond that, you're going to have to be direct with them and your manager. Or just deal with it. Or quit.
This stuff is hard, good luck.
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:07 PM on May 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
In the past I've been so baffled by someone else's incompetence that I've failed to give direct feedback because I assumed they must know better anyway and not care, or that they aren't going to be capable of improving. But neither of those assumptions are fair and they give you no chance of changing anything.
So, direct feedback: "Hey S, when you ask me these questions about your own department it interrupts my work and causes delays." Or "S, I'm concerned that you don't know who has access to this software, that's a serious security risk." (Note that in the latter you're focusing on the impact of the situation, not your judgement about their attitude about reading documentation--I agree it's ridiculous, but you don't have much standing to give feedback about a peer's attitude, just the impact of their behavior on your work.)
You could offer to help as part of that feedback above, like: "Can I share some suggestions for how we've documented this in the past, so it's easier you to find next time?" or "Here, let me connect you with the IT Person who can help you administer this better."
That might be enough to tell your manager that you've tried, and then outline to him (your manager) what the impact is. "Manager, I have offered to help in specific ways X, Y, & Z, but S keeps asking me the same questions. This delays my work, which causes [consequence]."
If you want to go a little farther to try to help S learn a little more, you could respond the way I do to newish members of my team who are just past the initial handholding onboarding stage: "I don't know, but you can likely find it it [in X resource]" or "I don't know, but if I had this question I'd ask Amy, she's the expert". It might or might not teach them how to find the information themselves, but it will hopefully teach them to stop asking you because you won't give them easy answers. You have to be firm about leaving at that instead of doing that legwork for them, though.
But you're under no obligation to do that, and I wouldn't do it for more than a few weeks, tops.
Beyond that, you're going to have to be direct with them and your manager. Or just deal with it. Or quit.
This stuff is hard, good luck.
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:07 PM on May 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
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What is your desired outcome? Do you think Salesguy could benefit from some kind of training? Do you think Salesguy just needs to go? Do you not mind if Salesguy keeps working there so long as you, personally, are insulated from him?
Are you noticing an impact on the bottom line or performance of the company? The only concrete business impact you mention is that two people have quit since he came. Everything else is about his ignorance and annoying communication style. The founder/owner may respond better to arguments about how Salesguy is harming the company than about how Salesguy is annoying.
How much of this is about you being annoyed by his perceived incompetence, regardless of any observable impact of the incompetence? Basically, can you just ignore some/a lot of this? Go full, "Not my circus, not my monkeys"? Someone is wrong in the office! But, like, to what extent is that really *your* problem?
For actual advice/scripts: have you specifically asked the founder/owner what to do when Saleguy asks you to do a "high-priority" task? I have had bosses tell me, "Oh yeah, she'll try to ask you to do all kinds of crazy stuff but you don't have to do it." It didn't stop the coworker from making unreasonable requests but I felt fine about turning them down.
It does sound like the founder/owner doesn't really like to "manage," which is currently a pain in the ass but may also mean you can get away with A LOT in terms of your interactions with Salesguy (although oftentimes people who won't manage still have plenty of time for gender-policing, making sure support staff stay in their place, placating perceived "rainmaker" salesguys, etc. so tread with caution). So you may be able to broken-record Salesguy - "Sorry, I won't be able to do that on your timescale" and "Like I said before, you're going to have to do that yourself!" and "Thanks for you input!" (and then do it your way).
To finish off, here are a couple links to MeFi fave Ask a Manager:
- how to say “that’s not my job”
- how to tell coworkers “you need to do that yourself”
And consider job searching! I eventually left my whole career in part to avoid that coworker who my boss said I could safely ignore.
posted by mskyle at 4:18 AM on May 29, 2022 [5 favorites]