How to discuss a title change/promotion and raise?
April 18, 2022 12:37 PM Subscribe
Hello!
Long story short (see details below). I took a job that offered me less than what I should be paid.
Fast forward, it has been a year, and I'm killing it. Through public records, I learned that my male colleagues/peers are making 15k+ more than me (I have an advanced degree and more experience). 15K is a lot of money to me. That is saving for retirement and paying student loans. I did some research and yes, Black women like me are often paid less. How do I even start the conversation with my boss? I have distorted thinking about money (grew up poor), so I'm afraid of coming off as ungrateful or greedy. However, I is my bosses' # 2, I should have a be compensated commensurate this this. Any advice is appreciated :)
Long story short. I got a new boss (had been at my job 3 + years).
The workplace became toxic and I had to leave. A partner in another department reached out to me and I eventually was offered a job before discussing the salary. I did not get far with negotiation (I tried, I think I got a little bump). But I was not happy with the low offer. However, the place I was in was toxic, going on 8 months, I had to make the jump.
Long story short. I got a new boss (had been at my job 3 + years).
The workplace became toxic and I had to leave. A partner in another department reached out to me and I eventually was offered a job before discussing the salary. I did not get far with negotiation (I tried, I think I got a little bump). But I was not happy with the low offer. However, the place I was in was toxic, going on 8 months, I had to make the jump.
15k is a lot of money to most people. Sounds like something you deserve.
I say you should just flat out say something to your boss. Stick to the facts, try to keep emotions out of it.
I'm in a very different situation than you, but I recently had a similar conversation with my superiors after many years in the same position. I had many phone conversations and emails. And once they understood I was serious and not just whining, appropriate wheels started turning.
posted by jozxyqk at 12:52 PM on April 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
I say you should just flat out say something to your boss. Stick to the facts, try to keep emotions out of it.
I'm in a very different situation than you, but I recently had a similar conversation with my superiors after many years in the same position. I had many phone conversations and emails. And once they understood I was serious and not just whining, appropriate wheels started turning.
posted by jozxyqk at 12:52 PM on April 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
Be straightforward and have facts to back up your request. Keep it professional and refuse to let your gender or race play into it. Business is business, whether you are an employer or employee. You have to sell yourself and your abilities. Always have another offer on the table that you can use for leverage.
posted by JJ86 at 12:59 PM on April 18, 2022
posted by JJ86 at 12:59 PM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: Sorry for the typos. I tried to fix spelling errors, and now the last part reads wonky.
posted by Boyd at 12:59 PM on April 18, 2022
posted by Boyd at 12:59 PM on April 18, 2022
I think the specifics of how you deal with this depend a lot on your organization - like, things that will work at a big organization with a healthy HR department might not work at a small family business (and vice versa!).
BUT you are definitely not being greedy or ungrateful! Your employers are, at best, taking advantage of a racist, sexist system (by paying you the lowest possible amount even though they should know that this perpetuates pay gaps that are 100% their business) or they're deliberately perpetuating that same racist, sexist system.
Honestly it might not be a terrible idea to have a quick call with an employment lawyer - you don't have to say anything to your employer about it, just get some advice about what is likely or possible for you to get in this kind of situation.
posted by mskyle at 1:11 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
BUT you are definitely not being greedy or ungrateful! Your employers are, at best, taking advantage of a racist, sexist system (by paying you the lowest possible amount even though they should know that this perpetuates pay gaps that are 100% their business) or they're deliberately perpetuating that same racist, sexist system.
Honestly it might not be a terrible idea to have a quick call with an employment lawyer - you don't have to say anything to your employer about it, just get some advice about what is likely or possible for you to get in this kind of situation.
posted by mskyle at 1:11 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am female and used to work as a computer programmer. At a couple jobs I was the sole female in the department. I have experienced sexism, including in pay. I can speak to that part of the issue.
There is a significant amount of research in this area, and I'd suggest doing some reading before you negotiate. You want to be armed with knowledge so you can be prepared for what may come. For example, women who seriously negotiate pay are less liked and may face repercussions long term because of that, even if they get a raise. Women are also judged more on their personality during reviews, while men are judged on their skills. Women are more often negatively labeled for the same behavior as their male colleagues. For example, men may be viewed as a go-getter for the same assertive behavior and initiative that gets you seen as aggressive.
I would look at this research and also research about racism specifically in pay negotiations before I even asked for a meeting. I'd also try to get in the right state of mind, where you don't telegraph your fears of being greedy or ungrateful. Perhaps imagine yourself as a beloved family member or friend; wouldn't she deserve a raise under these conditions? Would you think her greedy or ungrateful? I'm guessing not, and neither are you. Meditate upon your value to the company before you ask for a meeting with your boss. Know your own worth, thoroughly.
Then I would suggest a plan A and a plan B. Go in initially and negotiate as though your boss and any other decision makers are fair. Give them the benefit of the doubt, let them know about the discrepancy in pay and allow them the opportunity to remedy it. Be positive, review your accomplishments and don't minimize them, and have the data ready about what your coworkers make, and if possible also comps from a site like Glassdoor. This holds even if you suspect they are motivated by racism and sexism to pay you less. You have nothing to lose by being pleasant initially, and who knows, things may go your way.
But if that doesn't work, you need to decide whether to play hardball and/or look for a fairer situation. Some HR departments are aware that lawsuits can be very expensive, and will want to hear about discrepancies in pay that may be due to an employee's membership in a protected group. That is, of course, the nuclear option, but may be worth it to pursue while also looking for a better environment. Before you ask for a meeting with HR, document the heck out of everything. Get written reviews if you can, collect emails praising your performance, etc. It may also be worth it to pay a lawyer to at least consult if not attend a meeting with you.
15k is a lot of money to most people. It sounds like you are underpaid by more than that if you have an advanced degree and your peers don't, so make sure you ask for enough of a raise to put your compensation where it should really be.
Unfortunately, most businesses pay employees what they can get away with, not what that employee deserves based on their performance and value to the company. The squeaky wheel often really does get the grease, and men are conditioned to self-promote more than women are. To feel greedy and ungrateful for asking for what is rightfully yours is a trap set for you by society. Best wishes in springing that trap!
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 1:14 PM on April 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
There is a significant amount of research in this area, and I'd suggest doing some reading before you negotiate. You want to be armed with knowledge so you can be prepared for what may come. For example, women who seriously negotiate pay are less liked and may face repercussions long term because of that, even if they get a raise. Women are also judged more on their personality during reviews, while men are judged on their skills. Women are more often negatively labeled for the same behavior as their male colleagues. For example, men may be viewed as a go-getter for the same assertive behavior and initiative that gets you seen as aggressive.
I would look at this research and also research about racism specifically in pay negotiations before I even asked for a meeting. I'd also try to get in the right state of mind, where you don't telegraph your fears of being greedy or ungrateful. Perhaps imagine yourself as a beloved family member or friend; wouldn't she deserve a raise under these conditions? Would you think her greedy or ungrateful? I'm guessing not, and neither are you. Meditate upon your value to the company before you ask for a meeting with your boss. Know your own worth, thoroughly.
Then I would suggest a plan A and a plan B. Go in initially and negotiate as though your boss and any other decision makers are fair. Give them the benefit of the doubt, let them know about the discrepancy in pay and allow them the opportunity to remedy it. Be positive, review your accomplishments and don't minimize them, and have the data ready about what your coworkers make, and if possible also comps from a site like Glassdoor. This holds even if you suspect they are motivated by racism and sexism to pay you less. You have nothing to lose by being pleasant initially, and who knows, things may go your way.
But if that doesn't work, you need to decide whether to play hardball and/or look for a fairer situation. Some HR departments are aware that lawsuits can be very expensive, and will want to hear about discrepancies in pay that may be due to an employee's membership in a protected group. That is, of course, the nuclear option, but may be worth it to pursue while also looking for a better environment. Before you ask for a meeting with HR, document the heck out of everything. Get written reviews if you can, collect emails praising your performance, etc. It may also be worth it to pay a lawyer to at least consult if not attend a meeting with you.
15k is a lot of money to most people. It sounds like you are underpaid by more than that if you have an advanced degree and your peers don't, so make sure you ask for enough of a raise to put your compensation where it should really be.
Unfortunately, most businesses pay employees what they can get away with, not what that employee deserves based on their performance and value to the company. The squeaky wheel often really does get the grease, and men are conditioned to self-promote more than women are. To feel greedy and ungrateful for asking for what is rightfully yours is a trap set for you by society. Best wishes in springing that trap!
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 1:14 PM on April 18, 2022 [12 favorites]
Wait, are you at a different department of the same employer with the toxic boss? Did they not match your previous salary or have you been underpaid this whole time?
Honestly, it sounds like they know they've been significantly underpaying you and I wouldn't want to continue working for them absent another really good reason. Ask for a raise and also look for a new job. Even if you can convince them to pay you fairly now, it's clear that they don't value you and the culture isn't good.
posted by momus_window at 1:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Honestly, it sounds like they know they've been significantly underpaying you and I wouldn't want to continue working for them absent another really good reason. Ask for a raise and also look for a new job. Even if you can convince them to pay you fairly now, it's clear that they don't value you and the culture isn't good.
posted by momus_window at 1:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
You don't owe them or us any explanation of why you deserve this raise. Asking for more is NOT greedy or ungrateful (especially in this economy). People try to make you feel that way so they can manipulate you, so don't let them. Don't offer any reasons or explanations about the economy or your own finances.
I would not bring up peer compensation yet, but I would start by just asking for a raise. You might include some phrases like "market rates" to imply you know the general salary ranges for your position. Often there is a yearly review and raise cycle, and they may refuse to give out raises outside of the cycle. If that is the case, I would ask for some concrete goals they want you to achieve to get a raise of X percent on the next cycle. If 15k is more than ten percent, it may be a hard sell after just one year, but 2-3 years of stellar reviews should bring you in line with your peers. Maybe they can promote you instead in order to get you a raise now, citing your degree and experience.
If this doesn't get you on the way to equal pay, it is time to look for another position. This is the best time to job hop in fact, since so many people are changing positions.
posted by soelo at 2:08 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would not bring up peer compensation yet, but I would start by just asking for a raise. You might include some phrases like "market rates" to imply you know the general salary ranges for your position. Often there is a yearly review and raise cycle, and they may refuse to give out raises outside of the cycle. If that is the case, I would ask for some concrete goals they want you to achieve to get a raise of X percent on the next cycle. If 15k is more than ten percent, it may be a hard sell after just one year, but 2-3 years of stellar reviews should bring you in line with your peers. Maybe they can promote you instead in order to get you a raise now, citing your degree and experience.
If this doesn't get you on the way to equal pay, it is time to look for another position. This is the best time to job hop in fact, since so many people are changing positions.
posted by soelo at 2:08 PM on April 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would not bring up peer compensation yet
It's best not to bring up peer compensation at all. You know this matters, I know this matters, individual humans inside of HR know this matters, but in the private sector from an organizational, departmental budget perspective, this is almost always a complete non starter. There are "always" a lot of "good" reasons for why any one person's compensation is what it is, and for specific people at your work the powers that be will always explain the specific discrepancy away due to specific thing A, B, or C.
What you DO deserve is a market based raise. You need to do a little research on comps (or lie, and say that you've done some research, or that you've had calls from recruiters or something like that, even if your "research" is knowing what your peers make). Market factors will drive a raise for a good performer almost every time. Peer compensation is generally going to be interpreted as nosy and whiny, even if that's utter bullshit.
I also agree you should be looking for other jobs elsewhere, and when they ask what your current compensation is, lie. Add at least $20k to what you're making now when you're talking with hiring managers.
posted by phunniemee at 2:27 PM on April 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's best not to bring up peer compensation at all. You know this matters, I know this matters, individual humans inside of HR know this matters, but in the private sector from an organizational, departmental budget perspective, this is almost always a complete non starter. There are "always" a lot of "good" reasons for why any one person's compensation is what it is, and for specific people at your work the powers that be will always explain the specific discrepancy away due to specific thing A, B, or C.
What you DO deserve is a market based raise. You need to do a little research on comps (or lie, and say that you've done some research, or that you've had calls from recruiters or something like that, even if your "research" is knowing what your peers make). Market factors will drive a raise for a good performer almost every time. Peer compensation is generally going to be interpreted as nosy and whiny, even if that's utter bullshit.
I also agree you should be looking for other jobs elsewhere, and when they ask what your current compensation is, lie. Add at least $20k to what you're making now when you're talking with hiring managers.
posted by phunniemee at 2:27 PM on April 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
i strongly encourage you to look for another job. maybe put 10% of your effort into attempting to negotiate a better deal at your current workplace, and 90% of your effort into searching for and cultivating opportunities outside your current workplace. you have a lot more negotiating power around salary if you're in a position where you're not in a hurry to take a mediocre deal and can afford to wait for a good one.
posted by are-coral-made at 2:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by are-coral-made at 2:30 PM on April 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
> when they ask what your current compensation is, lie. Add at least $20k to what you're making now when you're talking with hiring managers.
another strategy is to politely refuse to answer the question - "i'd prefer not to talk about numbers until we've established that we're a great fit". also, if you have contacts in industry to learn about salaries offered by similar roles at different companies, it might be the case that the typical salary is around $x/yr, maybe you're getting paid 0.7*x, but there might be a few leading companies that offer 1.3*x or 1.5*x for doing the same work. Try to figure out which companies are the latter companies and apply there! If you get to the job offer stage, let them suggest a number first.
posted by are-coral-made at 2:35 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
another strategy is to politely refuse to answer the question - "i'd prefer not to talk about numbers until we've established that we're a great fit". also, if you have contacts in industry to learn about salaries offered by similar roles at different companies, it might be the case that the typical salary is around $x/yr, maybe you're getting paid 0.7*x, but there might be a few leading companies that offer 1.3*x or 1.5*x for doing the same work. Try to figure out which companies are the latter companies and apply there! If you get to the job offer stage, let them suggest a number first.
posted by are-coral-made at 2:35 PM on April 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I actually think the advice not to bring up peer compensation is outdated. In 2022 there is a wide awareness of the dynamic that women and people of color are unfairly paid less, and that this can cause a scandal for companies.
Do not go in there and say "Eric is making $Y and that's so unfair!"
But say, "It's come to my attention that I am being underpaid. I have an advanced degree and more experience than colleagues who are getting paid substantially more than me. I understand this might be an unintended consequence from being hired at different times and different starting salaries, but I would hope that Company is sensitive to equity and discrimination and would want to take a look at this and make me an offer to stay on at a salary that is fair with regard to my degree, my experience, and the pay scale of the colleagues I work with. I'm proud of the work I'm doing here and the contribution I'm making to this team, and it's disappointing to know that the Company doesn't seem to value it appropriately. I hope you can make this right."
If they push for details of who you are talking about and who told you, I would not disclose unless they are truly public records in which case sure, reference them.
And yes, also start applying for other jobs ASAP.
> when they ask what your current compensation is, lie. Add at least $20k to what you're making now when you're talking with hiring managers.
I think a better way to answer is just to affirmatively state what you are looking for: "I am looking for a position paying at least $X." (expect that you will get an offer of exactly that or $5k less, so go high). Ignore that they are asking about your current salary and interpret it as desired salary. (In some states it's illegal for them to ask your salary history.)
posted by amaire at 3:56 PM on April 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
Do not go in there and say "Eric is making $Y and that's so unfair!"
But say, "It's come to my attention that I am being underpaid. I have an advanced degree and more experience than colleagues who are getting paid substantially more than me. I understand this might be an unintended consequence from being hired at different times and different starting salaries, but I would hope that Company is sensitive to equity and discrimination and would want to take a look at this and make me an offer to stay on at a salary that is fair with regard to my degree, my experience, and the pay scale of the colleagues I work with. I'm proud of the work I'm doing here and the contribution I'm making to this team, and it's disappointing to know that the Company doesn't seem to value it appropriately. I hope you can make this right."
If they push for details of who you are talking about and who told you, I would not disclose unless they are truly public records in which case sure, reference them.
And yes, also start applying for other jobs ASAP.
> when they ask what your current compensation is, lie. Add at least $20k to what you're making now when you're talking with hiring managers.
I think a better way to answer is just to affirmatively state what you are looking for: "I am looking for a position paying at least $X." (expect that you will get an offer of exactly that or $5k less, so go high). Ignore that they are asking about your current salary and interpret it as desired salary. (In some states it's illegal for them to ask your salary history.)
posted by amaire at 3:56 PM on April 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
> another strategy is to politely refuse to answer the question - "i'd prefer not to talk about numbers until we've established that we're a great fit".
I disagree with this strategy. I think this bit of popular wisdom was created for white men, not for brown women in USA (like me) and especially not for Black women in USA like OP.
Employers tend to assume white men are already quite highly paid in their old job. (This is generally a justifiable assumption, employers do know how much racism and sexism benefit white men!) But it means white men a much better chance of getting high initial offers if they don't reveal how much they're making, because employers are already feeling the pressure to put forth their best offer due to this assumption. White male candidates' power, therefore, lies in silence and mystery on the matter of current salary.
Employers make the opposite assumption about Black women (justifiably so!), and they will tend to make lower initial offers as a consequence, because they know they don't have to offer a high number to beat the low amount she is presumed to be making currently. Therefore the only way for Black women win is to "reveal" a (falsely) high current salary from the start. Perhaps in 2022 it's possible to simply ask for that number as your bottomlinewithout saying it's your salary... but why risk it? Lying works. Probably better!
Black women's power lies in anchoring the salary number at a high mark before the employer has a chance to act on their assumption and lowball them. This remains true regardless of whether the employer lowballs them intentionally/maliciously by deliberately taking advantage of racism in society to get an employee for cheap, or unintentionally due to implicit bias leading them to act as if Black women are worth less without realizing they're acting that way.
In addition, white men are expected & allowed to negotiate upward from employers' initial offers without being seen as uppity or insulting. This is not true for Black women. Once the employer has lowballed them, if they try to negotiate significantly upward, the employer is MUCH more likely to feel insulted and withdraw the offer. There are tons of studies showing how implicit bias makes even nice liberal well-meaning employers view Black women as unlikeable or undesirable when they negotiate hard. So a lowball offer hurts Black women way more than it hurts white men, because they have less ability to negotiate upward successfully. Once again, anchoring the salary figure high right from the start is the only winning move for OP.
posted by MiraK at 4:20 PM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
I disagree with this strategy. I think this bit of popular wisdom was created for white men, not for brown women in USA (like me) and especially not for Black women in USA like OP.
Employers tend to assume white men are already quite highly paid in their old job. (This is generally a justifiable assumption, employers do know how much racism and sexism benefit white men!) But it means white men a much better chance of getting high initial offers if they don't reveal how much they're making, because employers are already feeling the pressure to put forth their best offer due to this assumption. White male candidates' power, therefore, lies in silence and mystery on the matter of current salary.
Employers make the opposite assumption about Black women (justifiably so!), and they will tend to make lower initial offers as a consequence, because they know they don't have to offer a high number to beat the low amount she is presumed to be making currently. Therefore the only way for Black women win is to "reveal" a (falsely) high current salary from the start. Perhaps in 2022 it's possible to simply ask for that number as your bottomlinewithout saying it's your salary... but why risk it? Lying works. Probably better!
Black women's power lies in anchoring the salary number at a high mark before the employer has a chance to act on their assumption and lowball them. This remains true regardless of whether the employer lowballs them intentionally/maliciously by deliberately taking advantage of racism in society to get an employee for cheap, or unintentionally due to implicit bias leading them to act as if Black women are worth less without realizing they're acting that way.
In addition, white men are expected & allowed to negotiate upward from employers' initial offers without being seen as uppity or insulting. This is not true for Black women. Once the employer has lowballed them, if they try to negotiate significantly upward, the employer is MUCH more likely to feel insulted and withdraw the offer. There are tons of studies showing how implicit bias makes even nice liberal well-meaning employers view Black women as unlikeable or undesirable when they negotiate hard. So a lowball offer hurts Black women way more than it hurts white men, because they have less ability to negotiate upward successfully. Once again, anchoring the salary figure high right from the start is the only winning move for OP.
posted by MiraK at 4:20 PM on April 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
Assuming this is a new job search being upfront about salary is only beneficial if one knows they’ll be offered a lower than market / desired salary. There are a number of situations where that’s not the case, even if there’s a racial or other bias. Eg New company has enforced minimum hand that’s higher, they are actually hiring for the candidate’s diversity, etc.
Leading with salary desire gets offers more likely to satisfy one’s own range but there’s an opportunity cost where the company may have offered more (uncommon here but not impossible).
But yes if they’re in an existing job asking for more should just be upfront as there’s nothing to be gained there.
posted by artificialard at 7:34 PM on April 18, 2022
Leading with salary desire gets offers more likely to satisfy one’s own range but there’s an opportunity cost where the company may have offered more (uncommon here but not impossible).
But yes if they’re in an existing job asking for more should just be upfront as there’s nothing to be gained there.
posted by artificialard at 7:34 PM on April 18, 2022
I'm afraid of coming off as ungrateful or greedy
This is something that is drilled into women from day 1. The best way I've found to deal with it is to picture the whitest bro ever having this conversation with the hiring manager. Is he going to give a shit if he comes off as ungrateful or greedy? No he is not. And then I try to be like that bro.
Summarize your accomplishments including quantitative metrics you bring to the organization. Regardless of numbers, if you can demonstrate equal value you have an inarguable case.
posted by bendy at 8:14 PM on April 18, 2022
This is something that is drilled into women from day 1. The best way I've found to deal with it is to picture the whitest bro ever having this conversation with the hiring manager. Is he going to give a shit if he comes off as ungrateful or greedy? No he is not. And then I try to be like that bro.
Summarize your accomplishments including quantitative metrics you bring to the organization. Regardless of numbers, if you can demonstrate equal value you have an inarguable case.
posted by bendy at 8:14 PM on April 18, 2022
Response by poster: This has been incredibly helpful. Yes, I am in the same organization, just a different department.
posted by Boyd at 8:08 AM on April 19, 2022
posted by Boyd at 8:08 AM on April 19, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by pixiecrinkle at 12:44 PM on April 18, 2022 [4 favorites]