Context and sources for marijuana use in North America
April 15, 2022 9:00 PM Subscribe
(We're not American). My partner said that he'll never vote for any party that stands for legalising marijuana, having seen the destruction it's wreaked on places like San Francisco, American in general, and Canada, during the couple of times he's visited.
Apparently you can't walk down a street in San Francisco without breathing in plumes of weed, and all these kids are suffering health-wise because of adults smoking it. I'm not really sure how to answer him since I've never been to North America. Any veracity to these statements? What's the context?
I told him that seems like marijuana use is linked with how effed up the US health system is so it's not really comparable to our country, but I don't really have much to say beyond that without local knowledge.
Apparently you can't walk down a street in San Francisco without breathing in plumes of weed, and all these kids are suffering health-wise because of adults smoking it. I'm not really sure how to answer him since I've never been to North America. Any veracity to these statements? What's the context?
I told him that seems like marijuana use is linked with how effed up the US health system is so it's not really comparable to our country, but I don't really have much to say beyond that without local knowledge.
Is your partner aware of the US propaganda machine for the US manufactured "War on Drugs?" His sentiment seems very in line with that rhetoric...
For reference, I'm born and raised in the Bay Area, California, and that type of alarmist thinking I heard is often posed by conservatives who handwring themselves into sickness about these 'degenerates' and 'deviants' -- which usually is in line with being homophobic and transphobic and anti-homeless etc, despite conservatives directly contributing to that systemic oppression. I am not saying your partner is like those folks, but he may want to be careful and question why he feels the need to repeat this kind of dialogue...it's really weird to hear this from someone who is non-USian, especially if he has no ties to the US.
posted by yueliang at 9:31 PM on April 15, 2022 [45 favorites]
For reference, I'm born and raised in the Bay Area, California, and that type of alarmist thinking I heard is often posed by conservatives who handwring themselves into sickness about these 'degenerates' and 'deviants' -- which usually is in line with being homophobic and transphobic and anti-homeless etc, despite conservatives directly contributing to that systemic oppression. I am not saying your partner is like those folks, but he may want to be careful and question why he feels the need to repeat this kind of dialogue...it's really weird to hear this from someone who is non-USian, especially if he has no ties to the US.
posted by yueliang at 9:31 PM on April 15, 2022 [45 favorites]
I live in Canada, where marijuana was legalized in Fall 2018. Your husband’s claims do not seem borne out by evidence, nor do they reflect my experience as someone who lives here.
Here’s a CBC article about a review of the last 3 years post-legalization that may have some facts for you to refer to:
Here’s a CBC article about a review of the last 3 years post-legalization that may have some facts for you to refer to:
Russell Callaghan, a professor in the UBC Northern Medical Program at the University of Northern British Columbia, is researching the impacts of legalization on a range of public health indicators. He says research in that area is still in its early stages.posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:41 PM on April 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
What has stuck out to him so far, however, is that many of the concerns around legalized cannabis — including potential increased cases of cannabis-induced psychosis and schizophrenia, and driving under the influence of drugs — have not materialized.
Callaghan says his research on traffic injuries in Ontario and Alberta does not suggest legalization has had a significant effect, at least not yet.
A recent report from Mothers Against Drunk Driving Canada (MADD) says the number of drug-impaired driving charges is "extremely low" — accounting for just 11 per cent of the 5,506 impaired driving charges across Canada in 2019.
Some provinces, such as Ontario and Quebec, saw a significant increase in drug-impaired driving charges that year, but the report attributes that mainly to new laws and enforcement powers.
I live in Mass, New England, USA. My state has had legal weed since 2018 at least. It is not causing destruction. Full disclosure, my SO has a side gig working for a local shop doing marketing, design, and branding, so I can also tell you it is a job creator.
Weed has a long and complicated history in the USA, and how it is viewed or accepted can vary greatly depending on where you are. Here in New England it was more accepted back in the day, 80's 90's, than other places. Big cities like New York it was dependent on where you were and context. People who liked to smoke weed found each other and formed a subculture.
Now that it legal I feel like it is working, at least where I live. Your partner's assessment of this whole issue seems out of whack with reality on the ground in the good old US of A.
posted by vrakatar at 9:50 PM on April 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
Weed has a long and complicated history in the USA, and how it is viewed or accepted can vary greatly depending on where you are. Here in New England it was more accepted back in the day, 80's 90's, than other places. Big cities like New York it was dependent on where you were and context. People who liked to smoke weed found each other and formed a subculture.
Now that it legal I feel like it is working, at least where I live. Your partner's assessment of this whole issue seems out of whack with reality on the ground in the good old US of A.
posted by vrakatar at 9:50 PM on April 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
Marijuana isn't an issue. Like, at all. I've lived my entire life on the Oregon/Washington border. Legalization didn't really change anything in practical terms... except make it easier for me to buy CBD oil for my 14yo dog who has pain issues and is terrified of thunder and fireworks.
Other drugs, especially meth and heroin, have gotten out of control, and THAT I blame on a lack of good quality, inexpensive, and easy to access mental health care. Too many people are self-medicating.
But then, they've been doing that for decades with alcohol, which is honestly the worst problem. And it's glorified and approved of. Nicotine isn't much better, and all raising cigarette prices has done is put the children of smokers more at risk of neglect.
Prohibiting something just makes it more attractive. The U.S. made a lot of mistakes in this regard.
And no, I don't smoke anything. Or even drink anything, these days, though I was never more than 2-3 drinks a year. Pot smoke annoys me, because it STINKS... and occasionally I'll encounter someone who happens to use one that gives me a headache. (And I've yet to figure out what exactly it is about it that causes them...)
But in general, people are reasonably considerate about it. But your partner's opinion? He's way, way off.
posted by stormyteal at 9:53 PM on April 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
Other drugs, especially meth and heroin, have gotten out of control, and THAT I blame on a lack of good quality, inexpensive, and easy to access mental health care. Too many people are self-medicating.
But then, they've been doing that for decades with alcohol, which is honestly the worst problem. And it's glorified and approved of. Nicotine isn't much better, and all raising cigarette prices has done is put the children of smokers more at risk of neglect.
Prohibiting something just makes it more attractive. The U.S. made a lot of mistakes in this regard.
And no, I don't smoke anything. Or even drink anything, these days, though I was never more than 2-3 drinks a year. Pot smoke annoys me, because it STINKS... and occasionally I'll encounter someone who happens to use one that gives me a headache. (And I've yet to figure out what exactly it is about it that causes them...)
But in general, people are reasonably considerate about it. But your partner's opinion? He's way, way off.
posted by stormyteal at 9:53 PM on April 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
I've lived in San Francisco for 3+ decades. The idea of weed everywhere is simply not true. Public consumption is prohibited by law, in any form. People consume it in their homes. after getting them from licensed dispensaries.
posted by kschang at 10:01 PM on April 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by kschang at 10:01 PM on April 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
I live in Canada; I've never used pot and am sensitive to the smell. Since legalization, sometimes when I'm walking around I smell pot smoke. More often, I smell cigarettes or fireplaces, or barbecues, or deep fryers, or stale beer, or coffee. But sometimes it's pot smoke instead. There are places where you are more likely to smell pot smoke; specifically at rock concerts and similar. It's more common in my inner city neighbourhood than in a random suburb. You may note that there are a lot fewer children at rock concerts and walking around in inner city neighbourhoods as well.
I have also walked down streets in San Francisco and smelled pot smoke a few times as well; I once had to explain to my mother why it was unlikely that there was a skunk going by in Union Square. It happened more before legalization than since. Again, a part of town where children are few on the ground, and again, I've smelled fortune cookies baking as much as I've smelled pot smoke in San Francisco.
Literally the biggest harm done here in Calgary is that our city council requires cannabis stores to not have visible product, so every bustling shopping street has storefronts that are effectively boarded up with opaque glass or similar; of course, this was already a problem with banks taking up potentially active retail frontage, and there is more bank frontage than cannabis.
This sounds like a bad excuse for voting for parties that cause thousands of times more harm through their policies than could possibly be caused by marijuana legalization.
posted by Superilla at 10:08 PM on April 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
I have also walked down streets in San Francisco and smelled pot smoke a few times as well; I once had to explain to my mother why it was unlikely that there was a skunk going by in Union Square. It happened more before legalization than since. Again, a part of town where children are few on the ground, and again, I've smelled fortune cookies baking as much as I've smelled pot smoke in San Francisco.
Literally the biggest harm done here in Calgary is that our city council requires cannabis stores to not have visible product, so every bustling shopping street has storefronts that are effectively boarded up with opaque glass or similar; of course, this was already a problem with banks taking up potentially active retail frontage, and there is more bank frontage than cannabis.
This sounds like a bad excuse for voting for parties that cause thousands of times more harm through their policies than could possibly be caused by marijuana legalization.
posted by Superilla at 10:08 PM on April 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
Anecdatapoint from a local non-smoker: I was born in, grew up in, and now live in the Bay Area again after a couple of decades in the Northeast. I'm in San Francisco at least weekly and Berkeley several times a week, and when I'm walking/biking around those cities, I smell pot about as often as I smelled it in Boston - more frequently around the various college campuses, less frequently in more family-oriented neighborhoods, but on average, maybe a couple of times a week in passing. One or two breaths out of the 150,000 breaths I took that week.
It's nowhere near as frequently as I encountered cigarette smoke on the street when I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, which was before California started banning smoking in bars and restaurants and other public places (which happened in the late '90s), but after we knew second-hand smoke was bad and saw ads for that on TV all the time. Legalization of recreational marijuana in 2016-17 in both California and Massachusetts means five years later I do see more ads for marijuana delivery, but I don't run into more people smoking it illicitly in public now than I did before that. As kschang mentioned above, it's something consumers usually consume at home, or at a friend's house; you can't actually consume it at the dispensaries you buy it from legally, is my understanding, so they're not like, say, Dutch "coffee shops."
I don't know what propaganda your partner's swallowed wholesale, but my lived experience doesn't match whatever third-hand stories he's picked up.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:17 PM on April 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
It's nowhere near as frequently as I encountered cigarette smoke on the street when I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, which was before California started banning smoking in bars and restaurants and other public places (which happened in the late '90s), but after we knew second-hand smoke was bad and saw ads for that on TV all the time. Legalization of recreational marijuana in 2016-17 in both California and Massachusetts means five years later I do see more ads for marijuana delivery, but I don't run into more people smoking it illicitly in public now than I did before that. As kschang mentioned above, it's something consumers usually consume at home, or at a friend's house; you can't actually consume it at the dispensaries you buy it from legally, is my understanding, so they're not like, say, Dutch "coffee shops."
I don't know what propaganda your partner's swallowed wholesale, but my lived experience doesn't match whatever third-hand stories he's picked up.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:17 PM on April 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
Are you sure your partner isn't secretly a time traveller from 1951? I don't smoke, I can't stand the smell, and I live in NYC, and I can't get my mind around where he'd even get this idea while walking around American cities. Is he so naive/sheltered that he doesn't understand the concept of opioids?
posted by praemunire at 10:23 PM on April 15, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:23 PM on April 15, 2022 [30 favorites]
Yeah America has 99 problems, weed zombies are not one of them.
Weed bars/coffee houses/lounges/salons are part of the law passed here in the Bay State, we do not have those yet. I'm a restaurant guy so I'd love to be on a focus group about that.
posted by vrakatar at 10:27 PM on April 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Weed bars/coffee houses/lounges/salons are part of the law passed here in the Bay State, we do not have those yet. I'm a restaurant guy so I'd love to be on a focus group about that.
posted by vrakatar at 10:27 PM on April 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
American society has not been "destroyed" by weed over the last decade-plus as it's crept toward legalized status. Your partner's complaints, at least as you describe them, seem extremely vague.
Is it all about secondhand smoke? That was far worse, in this country and virtually every other country in the world, several decades ago, when tobacco smoking was permitted almost everywhere. General health and life expectancy have gotten a huge boost as tobacco smoking has declined.
Marijuana, on the other hand, has been popular with a subset of the population for a long time, even before it was semi-legal. Semi-legalization has not tremendously boosted consumption, from what I can tell.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:51 PM on April 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Is it all about secondhand smoke? That was far worse, in this country and virtually every other country in the world, several decades ago, when tobacco smoking was permitted almost everywhere. General health and life expectancy have gotten a huge boost as tobacco smoking has declined.
Marijuana, on the other hand, has been popular with a subset of the population for a long time, even before it was semi-legal. Semi-legalization has not tremendously boosted consumption, from what I can tell.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:51 PM on April 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Non-smoker here. I live in an area where there is legal marijuana and about 1/2 mile from two different dispensaries. I find the dispensaries to be really good neighbors. They have security, keep the area clean and make sure people don't linger. There is a lot of pot smoke in the air where I live. A lot. People smoke a lot of pot openly and unapologetically, but never in front of or with children. It doesn't really bother me because, who cares?
I don't really see pot driving crime at all because...it is legal. People just smoke pot and either hang out or go watch movies and fall asleep. Has your partner tried weed before? Like, it doesn't really make you a stellar criminal mastermind or a criminal maniac...No one has ever tried to rob me for pot money.
Meth and Fentanyl, those are a big problem though. I mean community destroying horror show. So maybe he is confusing his drugs? With respect, does he know the difference between these things?
posted by Toddles at 10:57 PM on April 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
I don't really see pot driving crime at all because...it is legal. People just smoke pot and either hang out or go watch movies and fall asleep. Has your partner tried weed before? Like, it doesn't really make you a stellar criminal mastermind or a criminal maniac...No one has ever tried to rob me for pot money.
Meth and Fentanyl, those are a big problem though. I mean community destroying horror show. So maybe he is confusing his drugs? With respect, does he know the difference between these things?
posted by Toddles at 10:57 PM on April 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
Does your partner vote for parties that legalizes alcohol? I spent nearly two decades working in a bar adjacent industry that also has a lot of weed and I'm very certain that alcohol does way more damage than pot does.
I've not been in SF since legalisation but I've been in LA and I didn't catch a whiff of pot in public.
Parts of DC at night, yeah, there's a lot of weed but who's bringing their kids out to U street at 1 am?.
To be blunt, as a privileged white dude, pot has been de facto decriminalized for people like me for some time, so why does your partner care about it becoming so for everyone?
posted by Candleman at 10:59 PM on April 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've not been in SF since legalisation but I've been in LA and I didn't catch a whiff of pot in public.
Parts of DC at night, yeah, there's a lot of weed but who's bringing their kids out to U street at 1 am?.
To be blunt, as a privileged white dude, pot has been de facto decriminalized for people like me for some time, so why does your partner care about it becoming so for everyone?
posted by Candleman at 10:59 PM on April 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Cannabis legalization, in my personal experience here in Canada, is at this point completely uncontroversial across the political spectrum.
Where opinions seem to differ concerns certain aspects of how the legal market should be operated and managed (some of which is provincial, and some of which is federal). But people seem fine with legalization per se even if they don't "like" the idea of cannabis consumption.
There's a bit of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN"-style handwringing that still goes on, but it mostly revolves around things like municipal regulation of the location of cannabis stores and their proximity to schools, not the overall legal status of cannabis.
Crime rates in Canada, if you want to use that as one proxy for measuring any "destruction" wrought by cannabis legalization, should be going up and becoming more severe were that "destruction" happening, right?
They are not going up.
Looking at the latest country-wide crime stats, we get this: according to Statistics Canada, the police-reported crime rate per 100,000 population was down by 9.8 percent in 2020 vs. 2019. Moreover, the "crime severity index" used by Statistics Canada (from the same like) declined by almost eight per cent between 2019 and 2020. So take from that what you will.
Anecdotally: there are exactly six cannabis stores within a 1 km radius of where I live. There are many more than that if you expand that to a 2 km radius.
I could throw on my jacket , randomly pick a direction (north, south, east or west), start walking, and find a cannabis store in under ten minutes, easy.
That being the case, I just looked out the window, and I can attest to the fact there are no cannabis-addled hordes roaming the streets wreaking havoc. I did see a drunk guy yelling, though.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:03 PM on April 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
Where opinions seem to differ concerns certain aspects of how the legal market should be operated and managed (some of which is provincial, and some of which is federal). But people seem fine with legalization per se even if they don't "like" the idea of cannabis consumption.
There's a bit of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN"-style handwringing that still goes on, but it mostly revolves around things like municipal regulation of the location of cannabis stores and their proximity to schools, not the overall legal status of cannabis.
Crime rates in Canada, if you want to use that as one proxy for measuring any "destruction" wrought by cannabis legalization, should be going up and becoming more severe were that "destruction" happening, right?
They are not going up.
Looking at the latest country-wide crime stats, we get this: according to Statistics Canada, the police-reported crime rate per 100,000 population was down by 9.8 percent in 2020 vs. 2019. Moreover, the "crime severity index" used by Statistics Canada (from the same like) declined by almost eight per cent between 2019 and 2020. So take from that what you will.
Anecdotally: there are exactly six cannabis stores within a 1 km radius of where I live. There are many more than that if you expand that to a 2 km radius.
I could throw on my jacket , randomly pick a direction (north, south, east or west), start walking, and find a cannabis store in under ten minutes, easy.
That being the case, I just looked out the window, and I can attest to the fact there are no cannabis-addled hordes roaming the streets wreaking havoc. I did see a drunk guy yelling, though.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:03 PM on April 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
I’m not interested in pot at all. I was strongly in favor of legalization because of the arbitrary, capricious, and racist nature of policing around pot. Also because prohibition drives organized crime. I don’t have stats on if decriminalization/legalization has actually reduced the racial disproportionality of arrests, but that’s the sort of thing you’d want actual data to see.
Where in these US cities has your partner been? I was stuck in Times Square for work reasons last week and yes, it smelled like pot sometimes. But it also smelled like lots of other much more awful things. Just a few blocks away was quite lovely though and reminded me of some of the nice side of dense city living.
Point being, visiting a city for a short while as a tourist, especially in the touristy areas, doesn’t really give you a great handle on how policy changes have actually affected the area.
posted by nat at 11:51 PM on April 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Where in these US cities has your partner been? I was stuck in Times Square for work reasons last week and yes, it smelled like pot sometimes. But it also smelled like lots of other much more awful things. Just a few blocks away was quite lovely though and reminded me of some of the nice side of dense city living.
Point being, visiting a city for a short while as a tourist, especially in the touristy areas, doesn’t really give you a great handle on how policy changes have actually affected the area.
posted by nat at 11:51 PM on April 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I grew up in SF long before weed was legal and can promise it’s always smelled that way (or at least for several decades).
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:18 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:18 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
The reason US cities look Like That is that the rent skyrocketed over the past few years. It's not weed.
posted by kingdead at 12:36 AM on April 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 12:36 AM on April 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
Where I live marijuana is not legal, but you do all too often often smell pot walking in some areas, and sometimes even in my apartment because of neighbors (no idea if they're from my building or other buildings - we don't have air ducts and I keep windows open). I hate it!
The fact that I hate it doesn't mean that I think marijuana shouldn't be legal, though. That would make no sense, because there are a lot of ways to consume marijuana without stinking up the general vicinity. It just means I think it should be legal but exposing others to it without their permission should not be. (For context, I also think smoking cigarettes near bus stops and building entrances should be illegal too. And for clarity when I say that something oughta be illegal that's strictly assuming a theoretical world with decent, egalitarian, and humane policing, not the one we actually have.)
Maybe with mass legalization society will start developing some kind of etiquette around managing the smell. But either way, the benefits of legalization so strongly outweigh the unpleasantness of having to smell other people's use that I can't ethically object to it.
Regarding children's health, I haven't seen anything about that, though again I think that if it turns out that children are really harmed by it then that just means that the specific case of exposing children's lungs to it should be illegal - there's no reason there for other use cases to not be legalized. Meanwhile I assume he's a consistent thinker, knows about all the studies showing the serious effects of air pollution on kids (and adults), and has opinions about outlawing cars.
posted by trig at 1:17 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
The fact that I hate it doesn't mean that I think marijuana shouldn't be legal, though. That would make no sense, because there are a lot of ways to consume marijuana without stinking up the general vicinity. It just means I think it should be legal but exposing others to it without their permission should not be. (For context, I also think smoking cigarettes near bus stops and building entrances should be illegal too. And for clarity when I say that something oughta be illegal that's strictly assuming a theoretical world with decent, egalitarian, and humane policing, not the one we actually have.)
Maybe with mass legalization society will start developing some kind of etiquette around managing the smell. But either way, the benefits of legalization so strongly outweigh the unpleasantness of having to smell other people's use that I can't ethically object to it.
Regarding children's health, I haven't seen anything about that, though again I think that if it turns out that children are really harmed by it then that just means that the specific case of exposing children's lungs to it should be illegal - there's no reason there for other use cases to not be legalized. Meanwhile I assume he's a consistent thinker, knows about all the studies showing the serious effects of air pollution on kids (and adults), and has opinions about outlawing cars.
posted by trig at 1:17 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I personally know at least five children here in Seattle whose lives have absolutely been improved by legal weed. How do I know this? Because their mothers are my friends and while I do not indulge (I hate feeling stupid and no form of marijuana has ever not made me feel stupid) they have some edibles maybe once a month or so. Apparently the relaxation and relief that comes from getting pleasantly high on a regular basis is a huge contributor to them being able to be competent, loving, dependable parents throughout this whole shitshow of a pandemic. They all generally do edibles, no smoke involved, and they are extremely careful with their supply - since it’s legal it’s easy to get just enough for one night and not have any lying around the house.
Honestly around here pot people are like what coffee people used to be. You walk into a dispensary and some dude in an outfit you’re sure is probably fashionable by some rubric asks you if you’d like some help today and then peppers you with obscure terms like you’re suddenly needing a weed-sommelier crash course. You make vague sounds and express vague preferences and they produce something charmingly packaged with a little coordinating tissue paper and twine bow and it’s got some name like “viridian callalloo 5% generation IV amethyst cumulus” and you peer at some ornate handmade glass bongs while you pay and then head back home. This is, at least, my impression as a person who has accompanied friends. It’s like before I learned what a split shot cappuccino was and how to order it at every coffee shop; just completely over my head but in no way illicit. Mostly just niche.
Here in Washington, by the way, it’s not legal to consume marijuana in public places. So in fact, there are way less instances of pot smell since it became legal to have indoors. There are also fairly robust laws about stuff like if your apartment building’s neighbor is wafting smoke into your apartment via balcony and how to deal with that and what landlords are responsible for by way of ventilation and all. So it’s easier to avoid it almost entirely, if you want to.
posted by Mizu at 1:38 AM on April 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Honestly around here pot people are like what coffee people used to be. You walk into a dispensary and some dude in an outfit you’re sure is probably fashionable by some rubric asks you if you’d like some help today and then peppers you with obscure terms like you’re suddenly needing a weed-sommelier crash course. You make vague sounds and express vague preferences and they produce something charmingly packaged with a little coordinating tissue paper and twine bow and it’s got some name like “viridian callalloo 5% generation IV amethyst cumulus” and you peer at some ornate handmade glass bongs while you pay and then head back home. This is, at least, my impression as a person who has accompanied friends. It’s like before I learned what a split shot cappuccino was and how to order it at every coffee shop; just completely over my head but in no way illicit. Mostly just niche.
Here in Washington, by the way, it’s not legal to consume marijuana in public places. So in fact, there are way less instances of pot smell since it became legal to have indoors. There are also fairly robust laws about stuff like if your apartment building’s neighbor is wafting smoke into your apartment via balcony and how to deal with that and what landlords are responsible for by way of ventilation and all. So it’s easier to avoid it almost entirely, if you want to.
posted by Mizu at 1:38 AM on April 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
I left the Bay Area 16 years ago and moved to London, but I will say that the stories this person is telling are similar in nature to the "Muslim no-go-areas" propaganda created by the US's racist right-wing about London. I hope you find the facts and he's willing to be debunked, but this really seems like an article of faith that can't be changed through direct debate.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:02 AM on April 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:02 AM on April 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
I've lived in several US cities, including San Francisco, and now a smaller town in Massachusetts where there are too many dispensaries (both medical and recreational) to count. What he is saying just doesn't make sense. There are certainly children suffering in America, for a complex variety of reasons, but it's not the legal or illegal use of marijuana or exposure to it. There's poverty and all that it leads to, slumlords who won't fix peeling lead paint (this was a big thing in Baltimore where I grew up--where marijuana is/was not legalized) or other indoor environmental issues (did you know cockroach infestations are linked to asthma in kids?), racism...marijuana is really not it.
To top it off, a police officer in San Francisco once remarked to me that he hated dealing with drunk sports fans picking violent fights with each other and he wished these same people would/could be using weed instead, because he never ended up needing to break up fights as a result of that.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:33 AM on April 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
To top it off, a police officer in San Francisco once remarked to me that he hated dealing with drunk sports fans picking violent fights with each other and he wished these same people would/could be using weed instead, because he never ended up needing to break up fights as a result of that.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:33 AM on April 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
I wonder too what the source information he’s looking at is.
I live in a Toronto suburb and I don’t smoke or consume pot. I don’t like the smell of it either. And when it was legalized, there definitely was a noticeable change in the smell landscape, in that sometimes you’re on the subway next to someone who smells of it, you catch it on the air. On my street, there’s a spectacular view of the lake from a park that doesn’t have much visible from the street. This park has always been a spot local teens would come to hang out at night (sometimes way too close to the edge of the bluffs.) And post legalization, sometimes you can definitely walk past people smoking weed there more openly, or catch the scent. That’s true of people’s backyards too, especially on long weekends, but steak is more common from barbecues.
There are also soooo many cannabis shops. That’s because the perception is there’s big money in them. I was joking with my husband that if they all stay in business, we know everyone’s enjoying them but us. But I’m pretty sure the competition is going to eliminate some of them, it’s just that they are still on investor cash.
Neither of these things impacts my health or my kids’ health in any way. It used to be that drug dealers would occasionally hang out near the schools in my area and we would get notices. But that’s sort of dried up - I’m sure harder drugs and dealers are still around, but the local teens are mostly getting their pot from their parents or paying someone to go get it, just like alcohol.
Also, we live in an area where the local high school has a mix of high income ($3 million + homes) kids and kids from what we call priority neighborhoods - low-income social housing. This is true of many if not most of the high schools in Scarborough. Remember my park? So, all summer the kids from this school would sometimes have illegal bonfires along the lake and smoke weed. But, guess what colour of skin the kids had who got arrested for it rather than a warning?
I have a 16 year old, and honestly as he starts to enter the world of close to legal or legal consumption, I’m not sure which I’d rather he try. (He has the occasional sip of my occasional beer, but I drink maybe a drink a week average so not a whole lot of opportunity.) But I am glad he’ll be able to do so legally. There was always pot pretty freely available here.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:30 AM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
I live in a Toronto suburb and I don’t smoke or consume pot. I don’t like the smell of it either. And when it was legalized, there definitely was a noticeable change in the smell landscape, in that sometimes you’re on the subway next to someone who smells of it, you catch it on the air. On my street, there’s a spectacular view of the lake from a park that doesn’t have much visible from the street. This park has always been a spot local teens would come to hang out at night (sometimes way too close to the edge of the bluffs.) And post legalization, sometimes you can definitely walk past people smoking weed there more openly, or catch the scent. That’s true of people’s backyards too, especially on long weekends, but steak is more common from barbecues.
There are also soooo many cannabis shops. That’s because the perception is there’s big money in them. I was joking with my husband that if they all stay in business, we know everyone’s enjoying them but us. But I’m pretty sure the competition is going to eliminate some of them, it’s just that they are still on investor cash.
Neither of these things impacts my health or my kids’ health in any way. It used to be that drug dealers would occasionally hang out near the schools in my area and we would get notices. But that’s sort of dried up - I’m sure harder drugs and dealers are still around, but the local teens are mostly getting their pot from their parents or paying someone to go get it, just like alcohol.
Also, we live in an area where the local high school has a mix of high income ($3 million + homes) kids and kids from what we call priority neighborhoods - low-income social housing. This is true of many if not most of the high schools in Scarborough. Remember my park? So, all summer the kids from this school would sometimes have illegal bonfires along the lake and smoke weed. But, guess what colour of skin the kids had who got arrested for it rather than a warning?
I have a 16 year old, and honestly as he starts to enter the world of close to legal or legal consumption, I’m not sure which I’d rather he try. (He has the occasional sip of my occasional beer, but I drink maybe a drink a week average so not a whole lot of opportunity.) But I am glad he’ll be able to do so legally. There was always pot pretty freely available here.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:30 AM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
I really want to know what he means by this: all these kids are suffering health-wise because of adults
posted by amtho at 6:07 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by amtho at 6:07 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, there are ten weed stores within a ten minute walk over here (Toronto), through pretty much most of downtown.
I agree that booze is much more destructive, by far. I also think those who feel cannabis can do no wrong are mistaken. Here are articles corresponding to the weed tag on our (pretty even-handed) national broadcaster’s website for a spread of views.
(My take: pot dependency 1) exists, contra popular opinion and 2) happens more often than people want to say. Also am concerned about people who don’t realize they have an underlying psychiatric vulnerability and find weed triggers problems for them. It’s only a small percentage of people who have this, but one doesn’t know until the problems appear. Anyway, this effectively makes me Tipper Gore so I keep these views to myself. Some of the articles above probably talk about these risks, or it can be researched.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:18 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I agree that booze is much more destructive, by far. I also think those who feel cannabis can do no wrong are mistaken. Here are articles corresponding to the weed tag on our (pretty even-handed) national broadcaster’s website for a spread of views.
(My take: pot dependency 1) exists, contra popular opinion and 2) happens more often than people want to say. Also am concerned about people who don’t realize they have an underlying psychiatric vulnerability and find weed triggers problems for them. It’s only a small percentage of people who have this, but one doesn’t know until the problems appear. Anyway, this effectively makes me Tipper Gore so I keep these views to myself. Some of the articles above probably talk about these risks, or it can be researched.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:18 AM on April 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't really see pot driving crime at all because...it is legal.
It's also cheap, and you get lazy after you smoke it, and while people can develop dependency, it's not like a meth addict scratching away for the next score. Pot crimes are all about illegal sales, as well as people robbing pot shops because they have to do all their business in cash. It's not pot smokers mugging people to get $5 to go buy a pre-rolled joint (and cheaper than that when there is a sale).
To the original question, the description in the post just seems divorced from reality and more like talking points on some right wing pundit show. (Like, "the city is a war zone and 'normal people' are fleeing!" kind of dogwhistle stuff.) I've lived in states with legal recreational weed for years, and with legal medical cannabis for much longer. Yes, I smell it in public a bit more now (despite the rules about not smoking in public, like you aren't supposed to be walking around swigging from a bottle of booze), but that's about it for actually noticing anything. The weed stores are everywhere and they often have creative/funny names, which is fun to see.
Honestly around here pot people are like what coffee people used to be. You walk into a dispensary and some dude in an outfit you’re sure is probably fashionable by some rubric asks you if you’d like some help today and then peppers you with obscure terms like you’re suddenly needing a weed-sommelier crash course. You make vague sounds and express vague preferences and they produce something charmingly packaged with a little coordinating tissue paper and twine bow and it’s got some name like “viridian callalloo 5% generation IV amethyst cumulus” and you peer at some ornate handmade glass bongs while you pay and then head back home.
Around here, this description is perfect for the high end weed stores, which also often make a great effort to be inclusive. There are also many not-so-high-end weed stores, that are more like buying your case of beer at a dingy corner store rather than going to the hipster brewery.
Lastly, there are also places in Europe with varying degrees of legalization and/or decriminalization, so if weed leads to societal decay it should be visible there as well. (Instead, what you see here are the effects of decades of disinvestment in the social safety net, lack of affordable housing, and a reliance on punitive prison sentences instead of, say, drug treatment.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:58 AM on April 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's also cheap, and you get lazy after you smoke it, and while people can develop dependency, it's not like a meth addict scratching away for the next score. Pot crimes are all about illegal sales, as well as people robbing pot shops because they have to do all their business in cash. It's not pot smokers mugging people to get $5 to go buy a pre-rolled joint (and cheaper than that when there is a sale).
To the original question, the description in the post just seems divorced from reality and more like talking points on some right wing pundit show. (Like, "the city is a war zone and 'normal people' are fleeing!" kind of dogwhistle stuff.) I've lived in states with legal recreational weed for years, and with legal medical cannabis for much longer. Yes, I smell it in public a bit more now (despite the rules about not smoking in public, like you aren't supposed to be walking around swigging from a bottle of booze), but that's about it for actually noticing anything. The weed stores are everywhere and they often have creative/funny names, which is fun to see.
Honestly around here pot people are like what coffee people used to be. You walk into a dispensary and some dude in an outfit you’re sure is probably fashionable by some rubric asks you if you’d like some help today and then peppers you with obscure terms like you’re suddenly needing a weed-sommelier crash course. You make vague sounds and express vague preferences and they produce something charmingly packaged with a little coordinating tissue paper and twine bow and it’s got some name like “viridian callalloo 5% generation IV amethyst cumulus” and you peer at some ornate handmade glass bongs while you pay and then head back home.
Around here, this description is perfect for the high end weed stores, which also often make a great effort to be inclusive. There are also many not-so-high-end weed stores, that are more like buying your case of beer at a dingy corner store rather than going to the hipster brewery.
Lastly, there are also places in Europe with varying degrees of legalization and/or decriminalization, so if weed leads to societal decay it should be visible there as well. (Instead, what you see here are the effects of decades of disinvestment in the social safety net, lack of affordable housing, and a reliance on punitive prison sentences instead of, say, drug treatment.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:58 AM on April 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
There are more jurisdictions in the United States where cannabis is legal — medically and/or recreationally — than jurisdictions where it's not legal, so your husband is running out of places to visit here. I live in Virginia, where possession of up to an ounce was decriminalized in April 2020, personal use was legalized in January 2021 and recreational sales are... sadly, still a few years away. As others have said, there are larger problems in the United States than marijuana.
posted by emelenjr at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 7:04 AM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I lived in the Midwest in the 90s and SF of the 10s and the secondhand cigarette smoke in restaurants and bars and homes in the 90s was SO MUCH worse than occasionally getting a whiff of secondhand pot while walking down the street in SF.
I don’t partake myself, but I don’t think there was any notable impact on its presence once it was legalized in SF. If anything, smoke presence went down because it became easier to get edibles.
posted by A Blue Moon at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don’t partake myself, but I don’t think there was any notable impact on its presence once it was legalized in SF. If anything, smoke presence went down because it became easier to get edibles.
posted by A Blue Moon at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
"having seen the destruction it's wreaked on places like San Francisco"
I'm trying to find an answer beyond "DTMFA" because that's not the question you asked.
I guess there is a facts answer and a feelings answer, and the facts aren't going to override the feelings your partner has about this topic, and it's a bunch of hard work carrying this emotional labour over their unprocessed feelings.
Why someone would say these things? They have an idea they think is true about addiction and substance misuse as a cause (not an effect) of socio-economic circumstances, why is that? Do they have family and friends affected by socio-economic circumstances and addiction?
It's also interesting to hear what, their view is of the Portugal model, where access is regulated only so far as it standardises potency and comes with access to addiction management therapies?
posted by k3ninho at 7:52 AM on April 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm trying to find an answer beyond "DTMFA" because that's not the question you asked.
I guess there is a facts answer and a feelings answer, and the facts aren't going to override the feelings your partner has about this topic, and it's a bunch of hard work carrying this emotional labour over their unprocessed feelings.
Why someone would say these things? They have an idea they think is true about addiction and substance misuse as a cause (not an effect) of socio-economic circumstances, why is that? Do they have family and friends affected by socio-economic circumstances and addiction?
It's also interesting to hear what, their view is of the Portugal model, where access is regulated only so far as it standardises potency and comes with access to addiction management therapies?
posted by k3ninho at 7:52 AM on April 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
Any veracity to these statements?
None whatsoever.
What's the context?
The context is that, unfortunately, your partner is parroting American right-wing propaganda about the "evils" of drugs at least somewhat rooted in a strain of Christianity that views all pleasure as sinful, mixed with a heavy dose of racism, de facto and/or intentional.
President Nixon gets a lot of credit for ramping the "War on Drugs" into high gear in 1971, and Nixon was certainly a racist and afraid of the growing voting power of Black and brown people and liberals and hippies who generally thought racism was bad and pot was pretty good. But as this piece and this piece note, some 40 years before this Harry Anslinger (the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics) specifically and directly created a moral panic about marijuana because minorities were using it. (CW: both articles contain direct quotes from Ansliger that are just pretty horrific.) The second article also notes that whatever "evidence" Ansliger used to justify his plan and results was created from fudged data or simply made up out of whole cloth.
Which means, as Dip Flash notes, that if marijuana has had any deleterious effect on San Fran or other cities of America, it's because we've had decades of policies that create and reinforce cycles of poverty and crime, often largely due to the criminalization of weed and the unequal and racist enforcement of those laws. (As Candleman says, possession of weed has been essentially decriminalized for white folks for YEARS, unless you're, like, flying in a cargo plane full of bales of weed or something.)
Conservative economic policies and racism and NIMBYism have wreaked havoc on America in general and I think to some extent Canada. Legalization or decriminalization of marijuana has fuck all to do with whatever hell pits he thinks we Americans & Canadians live in.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:53 AM on April 16, 2022 [19 favorites]
None whatsoever.
What's the context?
The context is that, unfortunately, your partner is parroting American right-wing propaganda about the "evils" of drugs at least somewhat rooted in a strain of Christianity that views all pleasure as sinful, mixed with a heavy dose of racism, de facto and/or intentional.
President Nixon gets a lot of credit for ramping the "War on Drugs" into high gear in 1971, and Nixon was certainly a racist and afraid of the growing voting power of Black and brown people and liberals and hippies who generally thought racism was bad and pot was pretty good. But as this piece and this piece note, some 40 years before this Harry Anslinger (the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics) specifically and directly created a moral panic about marijuana because minorities were using it. (CW: both articles contain direct quotes from Ansliger that are just pretty horrific.) The second article also notes that whatever "evidence" Ansliger used to justify his plan and results was created from fudged data or simply made up out of whole cloth.
Which means, as Dip Flash notes, that if marijuana has had any deleterious effect on San Fran or other cities of America, it's because we've had decades of policies that create and reinforce cycles of poverty and crime, often largely due to the criminalization of weed and the unequal and racist enforcement of those laws. (As Candleman says, possession of weed has been essentially decriminalized for white folks for YEARS, unless you're, like, flying in a cargo plane full of bales of weed or something.)
Conservative economic policies and racism and NIMBYism have wreaked havoc on America in general and I think to some extent Canada. Legalization or decriminalization of marijuana has fuck all to do with whatever hell pits he thinks we Americans & Canadians live in.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:53 AM on April 16, 2022 [19 favorites]
The last time I visited SF, it was full of homeless people. They have difficult (understatement) lives and may use drugs to ease their woes; some may be addicts. Weed is a popular recreational drug, smelling people using it does not equal addiction, though many addicts use weed because it's pleasant. So, confirmation bias, smelling weed and associating it with every bad thing.
In my experience, there's plenty of drug use among conservatives, whether it's prescription abuse, alcohol, cocaine, whatever. Less weed, which is an easy target.
posted by theora55 at 8:13 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
In my experience, there's plenty of drug use among conservatives, whether it's prescription abuse, alcohol, cocaine, whatever. Less weed, which is an easy target.
posted by theora55 at 8:13 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Agreeing with everyone else above.
Seattle here, (one of the two states that legalized first), and, just no.
Yes there are a lot of pot shops. Yes some folks smoke in public, (as they always did). I had an office on a street that has a lot of bars and a music venue. Pre-legalization, walking to my office, there were a ton of half-smoked joints on the sidewalks.
But our problems are far more opioid related. People heating pills on aluminum foil and sucking the smoke up with a straw. On the bus! I think these days I see more burnt foil than I do pre-roll roaches. And mental health issues. And homeless encampments.
Blaming weed is just ridiculous.
posted by Windopaene at 8:49 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Seattle here, (one of the two states that legalized first), and, just no.
Yes there are a lot of pot shops. Yes some folks smoke in public, (as they always did). I had an office on a street that has a lot of bars and a music venue. Pre-legalization, walking to my office, there were a ton of half-smoked joints on the sidewalks.
But our problems are far more opioid related. People heating pills on aluminum foil and sucking the smoke up with a straw. On the bus! I think these days I see more burnt foil than I do pre-roll roaches. And mental health issues. And homeless encampments.
Blaming weed is just ridiculous.
posted by Windopaene at 8:49 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m not sure your partner understands *why* after many years of illegality virtually every U.S. state has moved towards medical legality and most towards complete legality.
Historically the U.S. has always tried to pin social problems on a single cause. We like simple answers. The prime example of this was the prohibition of alcohol, a topic that got so much steam that we actually added it to our country’s constitution. Then about 15 years later when we had calmed down a bit we said "Huh, yeah, maybe we should undo that." It turned out that alcohol hadn’t been the issue.
The U.S. has gone through a similar cycle with Marijuana, right down to the campaign slogans ("Alcohol is the Devil’s Brew" became "Marijuana is the Devil’s Weed") when we banned it. And right now as we unban it we have the same "Um, yeah, maybe we went overboard a bit."
So where the U.S. is right now is that we have a lot of experience with banning Marijuana and it didn’t fix anything. We might as well have banned gardenias.
I’m not sure where your partner’s focus on Marijuana is coming from, but if American propaganda is involved they should know it’s out of date.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Historically the U.S. has always tried to pin social problems on a single cause. We like simple answers. The prime example of this was the prohibition of alcohol, a topic that got so much steam that we actually added it to our country’s constitution. Then about 15 years later when we had calmed down a bit we said "Huh, yeah, maybe we should undo that." It turned out that alcohol hadn’t been the issue.
The U.S. has gone through a similar cycle with Marijuana, right down to the campaign slogans ("Alcohol is the Devil’s Brew" became "Marijuana is the Devil’s Weed") when we banned it. And right now as we unban it we have the same "Um, yeah, maybe we went overboard a bit."
So where the U.S. is right now is that we have a lot of experience with banning Marijuana and it didn’t fix anything. We might as well have banned gardenias.
I’m not sure where your partner’s focus on Marijuana is coming from, but if American propaganda is involved they should know it’s out of date.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
many of the concerns around legalized cannabis — including potential increased cases of cannabis-induced psychosis and schizophrenia, and driving under the influence of drugs — have not materialized.
Ahh, in that case, the research on this is very much equivocal…
The Lancet
ctvnews.ca
canada.ca
And young people (under 25) have particular vulnerabilities it’s probably good to research (^ risk of mood disorders).
With that said, ultimately the problem behind the visible poverty, homelessness, and/or broken windows etc anyone might see is the even more obscene than ever levels of inequality wrought by late stage capitalism whereby meth and opiate producers make mad bank off people’s socioeconomic pain and dislocation. (Have never seen a pot smoker randomly swing at passers-by, to my knowledge.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:41 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ahh, in that case, the research on this is very much equivocal…
The Lancet
ctvnews.ca
canada.ca
And young people (under 25) have particular vulnerabilities it’s probably good to research (^ risk of mood disorders).
With that said, ultimately the problem behind the visible poverty, homelessness, and/or broken windows etc anyone might see is the even more obscene than ever levels of inequality wrought by late stage capitalism whereby meth and opiate producers make mad bank off people’s socioeconomic pain and dislocation. (Have never seen a pot smoker randomly swing at passers-by, to my knowledge.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:41 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now that it legal I feel like it is working, at least where I live. Your partner's assessment of this whole issue seems out of whack with reality on the ground in the good old US of A.
This is the feeling I have. I live in a state where weed is legal but we don't yet have retail. I am from a state that has retail and honestly if CVS (American drug store) was run half as well as the weed shops, we'd all be much happier. I don't think it's worth discounting what cotton dress sock is linking to, there is some evidence that marijuana use in young people can have some negative effects, people argue whether those are just latent things that would have happened anyhow. As someone who has a family member who was a young pot smoker who also has a severe mood disorder, I've been following this fairly closely.
But, more to the point, legal weed creates jobs, hasn't had most of the negative effects its foes were predicting, and is often pretty non-controversial among most people. It's inexpensive, it can be habit forming but non-addicive, it doesn't make people ragey or resort to crime to maintain a high, it helps people with chronic pain that their doctors might not be able or willing to manage.
And I think one thing that is worth special attention is that in the US it was basically super-illegal (i.e. was listed as a much more dangerous drug than it actually was, and demonized) for a very long time, and is still illegal at the federal level leading to all sorts of weirdness including there being very little research into marijuana usage (meaning people can spin all sorts of wild stories) and drug tests for many jobs in states where weed is legal.
A few books your partner might want to read that were useful for me
- Cannabis: The Illegalization of Weed in America by Box Brown - this is a graphic novel which explains the arc of weed use in the US. Not the best graphic novel but the easiest thing to read on a subject that doesn't read like it was written by a pothead (no shade, but if you're just looking for facts, it's a good source)
- Cannabiz: The Explosive Rise of the Medical Marijuana Industry - a little out of date now but talks about some of the benefits of the weed industry and how a lof ot he business side of the whole thing works.
As someone who works in libraries, now that weed is legal in the state we can have BOOKS on it, people can learn, people can grow their own (I went to a "How to cultivate" program at a tiny local library and was so happy to see it), and it's not a dicey proposition anymore. But this is how it was for a long time, the only books you could get were either undergroundish or very anti-drug. It's really hard to overstate how much the US's War on Drugs villainized all drugs nearly equally while giving alcohol (a much more dangerous drug if stats are to be believed) a pass.
posted by jessamyn at 9:56 AM on April 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is the feeling I have. I live in a state where weed is legal but we don't yet have retail. I am from a state that has retail and honestly if CVS (American drug store) was run half as well as the weed shops, we'd all be much happier. I don't think it's worth discounting what cotton dress sock is linking to, there is some evidence that marijuana use in young people can have some negative effects, people argue whether those are just latent things that would have happened anyhow. As someone who has a family member who was a young pot smoker who also has a severe mood disorder, I've been following this fairly closely.
But, more to the point, legal weed creates jobs, hasn't had most of the negative effects its foes were predicting, and is often pretty non-controversial among most people. It's inexpensive, it can be habit forming but non-addicive, it doesn't make people ragey or resort to crime to maintain a high, it helps people with chronic pain that their doctors might not be able or willing to manage.
And I think one thing that is worth special attention is that in the US it was basically super-illegal (i.e. was listed as a much more dangerous drug than it actually was, and demonized) for a very long time, and is still illegal at the federal level leading to all sorts of weirdness including there being very little research into marijuana usage (meaning people can spin all sorts of wild stories) and drug tests for many jobs in states where weed is legal.
A few books your partner might want to read that were useful for me
- Cannabis: The Illegalization of Weed in America by Box Brown - this is a graphic novel which explains the arc of weed use in the US. Not the best graphic novel but the easiest thing to read on a subject that doesn't read like it was written by a pothead (no shade, but if you're just looking for facts, it's a good source)
- Cannabiz: The Explosive Rise of the Medical Marijuana Industry - a little out of date now but talks about some of the benefits of the weed industry and how a lof ot he business side of the whole thing works.
As someone who works in libraries, now that weed is legal in the state we can have BOOKS on it, people can learn, people can grow their own (I went to a "How to cultivate" program at a tiny local library and was so happy to see it), and it's not a dicey proposition anymore. But this is how it was for a long time, the only books you could get were either undergroundish or very anti-drug. It's really hard to overstate how much the US's War on Drugs villainized all drugs nearly equally while giving alcohol (a much more dangerous drug if stats are to be believed) a pass.
posted by jessamyn at 9:56 AM on April 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
I live in Downtown Los Angeles. I do smell pot regularly: my neighbors smoke on their balcony, people smoke on the sidewalks and in parks, etc. This is at best a very mild irritation that requires clicking on the air purifiers in my apartment or walking a few feet away. It is far, far, far, far less burdensome than when people smoke cigarettes.
There are plenty of things destroying the air quality in Los Angeles and causing negative health effects for kids and adults: cars, oil drilling, ships & trucking at the port, wildfires from unchecked climate change. And you are right that those health effects are exacerbated by our non-functioning health care system, as well as by racist zoning and housing policy. Marijuana has exactly zero public health impact on air quality, especially in the face of all of these other forces.
That’s the context where I live. But. More importantly:
What, exactly, is the “destruction” your partner has seen with his own two eyes? Because I think you are coming at this from the wrong direction. It is incumbent on the person making the sweeping social claim to provide the evidence for it, not for the person who thinks that sounds implausible to compile a thesis explaining the real reasons behind every bad, uncomfortable, or merely unusual thing a person may have witnessed as a tourist. I think this is especially true when those sweeping social claims are as deeply linked to well-established racism, racist policies, and racist talking points as this one is.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 10:23 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
There are plenty of things destroying the air quality in Los Angeles and causing negative health effects for kids and adults: cars, oil drilling, ships & trucking at the port, wildfires from unchecked climate change. And you are right that those health effects are exacerbated by our non-functioning health care system, as well as by racist zoning and housing policy. Marijuana has exactly zero public health impact on air quality, especially in the face of all of these other forces.
That’s the context where I live. But. More importantly:
What, exactly, is the “destruction” your partner has seen with his own two eyes? Because I think you are coming at this from the wrong direction. It is incumbent on the person making the sweeping social claim to provide the evidence for it, not for the person who thinks that sounds implausible to compile a thesis explaining the real reasons behind every bad, uncomfortable, or merely unusual thing a person may have witnessed as a tourist. I think this is especially true when those sweeping social claims are as deeply linked to well-established racism, racist policies, and racist talking points as this one is.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 10:23 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, I live in a US state with legal weed but don't use, and, aside from amusing billboards for dispensaries, I think it's had about zero impact on my life. There's definitely crime in some parts of cities, and a crisis re: how to handle people experiencing homelessness, but I see no evidence that there's any connection between weed and any of this. I'm much more inclined to blame NIMBYs making it difficult to expand housing stock, Reagan-era deinstitutionalization (not that institutions were good either, but the alternative isn't great either), and general American political shittiness.
posted by Alterscape at 10:43 AM on April 16, 2022
posted by Alterscape at 10:43 AM on April 16, 2022
I live in Toronto, Canada, and as a couple of people have already mentioned, weed is legal here, on a federal level, and has been for several years. In my experience, the people who were interested in consuming weed are now purchasing and consuming it regularly and the people who weren’t interested in it before it was legal are continuing to not be interested in it. It has, however, been hugely beneficial for our province, adding billions of dollars to our GDP and creating hundreds of thousands of jobs. Your partner definitely has an axe to grind about this and seems to be deliberately misinformed and I would probably investigate that/see if it’s occurring in other areas of his life.
posted by kate blank at 10:54 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kate blank at 10:54 AM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Both the pros and cons of cannabis have been greatly exaggerated.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:16 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 11:16 AM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
What? I live in MA, a state which legalized weed in 2016 and decriminalized it in 2008, and… none of this is happening.
If he truly wants to vote against “drugs” in particular, please teach him about the horror that are opiate addictions and how they destroy lives and communities. And even then, what the US needs is a BETTER understanding of drugs and drug addictions, as well as social and economic support for recovery and, you know, a social safety net. But railing against weed is easier, obviously.
posted by lydhre at 12:29 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
If he truly wants to vote against “drugs” in particular, please teach him about the horror that are opiate addictions and how they destroy lives and communities. And even then, what the US needs is a BETTER understanding of drugs and drug addictions, as well as social and economic support for recovery and, you know, a social safety net. But railing against weed is easier, obviously.
posted by lydhre at 12:29 PM on April 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yet another: it became legal here, and hardly anything changed. Just a lot of new, little retail shops.
But when legalization was about to be voted on, I found myself in conversation with a random stranger, who was surprised to learn that I, as a paramedic, would support legalization.
"Put it this way," I told him. "Have you ever known a 'mean drunk' ?"
"Yeah sure."
"Ever seen someone who gets mean when he smokes pot?"
He almost laughed. "No, of course not."
Then the light came on, and his face was a study in sudden comprehension.
posted by wjm at 12:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
But when legalization was about to be voted on, I found myself in conversation with a random stranger, who was surprised to learn that I, as a paramedic, would support legalization.
"Put it this way," I told him. "Have you ever known a 'mean drunk' ?"
"Yeah sure."
"Ever seen someone who gets mean when he smokes pot?"
He almost laughed. "No, of course not."
Then the light came on, and his face was a study in sudden comprehension.
posted by wjm at 12:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
The conclusion your partner has drawn is not based on fact, nor is it actually based on his experience: he only assumed it was. He may wish to ascribe issues he saw in those cities as cannabis-related, but as many people have illustrated above, they are not related at all. The kind of false rhetoric he has bought into appeals only to emotions and values. And you generally cannot logic someone out of of position they arrived at through emotional triggers.
Something about the messaging he has received around marijuana use is confirming something he already believes about people or society or cities or whatever. Figure out what that is, and you will have a much better chance of finding out how to (possibly) shift his mindset.
Best of luck. I have family members like this and I havent had any luck at all. I hope your experience is different.
posted by ananci at 1:10 PM on April 16, 2022
Something about the messaging he has received around marijuana use is confirming something he already believes about people or society or cities or whatever. Figure out what that is, and you will have a much better chance of finding out how to (possibly) shift his mindset.
Best of luck. I have family members like this and I havent had any luck at all. I hope your experience is different.
posted by ananci at 1:10 PM on April 16, 2022
Having lived in the Bay Area for a decade until very recently (like a few months) your partner's description does not match my experience at all. I honestly do not ever recall a time where I was out and about in public or in my apartment and even got a whiff of marijuana smoke. I lived in non-smoking apartment complexes which obviously helps, but that didn't prevent issues with the occasional rule-breaker smoking tobacco cigarettes on their balcony or whatever which happened often enough to annoy me.
Your partner's sources sound very suspect to me.
posted by Aleyn at 2:07 PM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Your partner's sources sound very suspect to me.
posted by Aleyn at 2:07 PM on April 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have no idea what your partner is talking about. They need better information sources.
I've lived in SF for over 30 years and worked on cannabis legalization here. The research is clear that legalization does NOT increase problematic use, youth use, or any of the various reefer madness catastrophes that were supposed to happen. Yes, I do smell pot on occasion, but mostly from my neighbors who smoke up in their backyard. The amount of homelessness and distress on our streets here is entirely a result of bad economic and housing policies, not people's individual substance use, and certainly not anyone's cannabis use. Alcohol creates far more personal and societal damage than cannabis does.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:12 PM on April 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
I've lived in SF for over 30 years and worked on cannabis legalization here. The research is clear that legalization does NOT increase problematic use, youth use, or any of the various reefer madness catastrophes that were supposed to happen. Yes, I do smell pot on occasion, but mostly from my neighbors who smoke up in their backyard. The amount of homelessness and distress on our streets here is entirely a result of bad economic and housing policies, not people's individual substance use, and certainly not anyone's cannabis use. Alcohol creates far more personal and societal damage than cannabis does.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:12 PM on April 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
Literally the biggest harm done here in Calgary is that our city council requires cannabis stores to not have visible product, so every bustling shopping street has storefronts that are effectively boarded up with opaque glass or similar
I live in Toronto, there are three cannabis shops within easy walking distance and my next door neighbour is big smoker. But still, my only problem with them is that, in the rush of excitement and the stupid rules about not being visible, we have too many cannabis shops taking up space from other retail. I really wish we'd gone with the LCBO/government store model.
But the legalization? That's awesome. A safe supply of cannabis, increasing options for edibles and oils which don't need to be smoked (better for your lungs and neighbours), and no waste of social resources with (selectively) criminalizing people having a mild drug? It's awesome. I'm not smoking/ingesting myself due to being pregnant, but I'm really happy that people who do have a safe and regulated way to enjoy their mild intoxicant -
And the only social problem has been the issue of commercial retail properties, which would be helped with regulations that existing cannabis stores are asking for (to spread out the competition). Seriously: I was on Queen West the other day and really needed a snack (pregnancy nausea). There were four weed shops, but nowhere to get munchies! That's a seriously overlooked market. I had to walk past several cannabis places just to find a bagel place.
posted by jb at 6:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I live in Toronto, there are three cannabis shops within easy walking distance and my next door neighbour is big smoker. But still, my only problem with them is that, in the rush of excitement and the stupid rules about not being visible, we have too many cannabis shops taking up space from other retail. I really wish we'd gone with the LCBO/government store model.
But the legalization? That's awesome. A safe supply of cannabis, increasing options for edibles and oils which don't need to be smoked (better for your lungs and neighbours), and no waste of social resources with (selectively) criminalizing people having a mild drug? It's awesome. I'm not smoking/ingesting myself due to being pregnant, but I'm really happy that people who do have a safe and regulated way to enjoy their mild intoxicant -
And the only social problem has been the issue of commercial retail properties, which would be helped with regulations that existing cannabis stores are asking for (to spread out the competition). Seriously: I was on Queen West the other day and really needed a snack (pregnancy nausea). There were four weed shops, but nowhere to get munchies! That's a seriously overlooked market. I had to walk past several cannabis places just to find a bagel place.
posted by jb at 6:38 PM on April 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
And yes, Toronto's homelessness crisis has everything to do with massive increases in the cost of rental housing combined with stagnant wages and criminally low social benefit supports like disability income, nothing to do with marijuana.
posted by jb at 6:41 PM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by jb at 6:41 PM on April 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
It’s also worth noting that the American right is currently whipping up a huge moral panic about the lawlessness and squalor of San Francisco as part of the attempt to recall district attorney Chesa Boudin. The idea is that the reforms to the criminal justice system championed by Boudin and other progressives have led to an environment where people feel comfortable using drugs openly and committing various petty crimes because there are no consequences, and what’s needed is a increased policing and a DA who will enforce tough sentences. This is all a load of BS concocted by police, retail industry groups, and wealthy people who are uncomfortable with the mere presence of homeless people, but it’s gotten a lot of attention nationally because it’s a perfect microcosm of right wing attitudes about so many things.
That said, while drug use does play a significant role in the above moral panic, the big players are opioids and meth, not weed. My guess is that your partner heard some right-leaning narratives about contemporary San Francisco as well as some older ones about marijuana and then got the wires crossed.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:17 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
That said, while drug use does play a significant role in the above moral panic, the big players are opioids and meth, not weed. My guess is that your partner heard some right-leaning narratives about contemporary San Francisco as well as some older ones about marijuana and then got the wires crossed.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:17 AM on April 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Both the pros and cons of cannabis have been greatly exaggerated.
Came to say this. Reagan Era rhetoric. The idea that weed (or any single cause) has anything to do with the undefined “destruction” of San Francisco, “America,” and Canada is frankly quite silly.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:27 AM on April 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Came to say this. Reagan Era rhetoric. The idea that weed (or any single cause) has anything to do with the undefined “destruction” of San Francisco, “America,” and Canada is frankly quite silly.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:27 AM on April 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’ve had some life experiences that have made me pretty hostile to marijuana, so I’m probably closer in temperament to your partner than most people here. So that’s why I’m saying your partner is wrong. Marijuana is like alcohol. Alcohol has been legal in most of the US for decades, and yet public intoxication is not a serious problem. There are some places where you encounter drunks in public: college campuses, the parking lots outside sports stadiums on game days, “bad” inner city neighborhoods, etc. Likewise, there are places where you encounter reefer in public, but not often, and in fairly predictable places. It’s rare that you walk out the door of an office building or a boutique retail storefront into a cloud of ganja smoke, just like you wouldn’t see guys drinking 40s in paper bags in those places. There are valid reasons for your partner to oppose legalization, and I’m mystified by the cultural obsession with weed, but the notion the it’s omnipresent in public is fiction.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:55 PM on April 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 12:55 PM on April 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
This may or may not be a good time to go into "how wrong are other countries when it comes to America".
To many countries, USofA can be
* land of many guns
* land of many nosy people
* land of Karens
* land of potheads (as evident here)
* land of prosperity or opportunity
* land of gangs
* land of homeless
* land of rednecks
* land of Christians
* (whatever)
Each of which is epitomized by some TV series, I'll bet.
It's a lot like the parable of 3 blind men touching an elephant...
posted by kschang at 12:29 AM on April 18, 2022
To many countries, USofA can be
* land of many guns
* land of many nosy people
* land of Karens
* land of potheads (as evident here)
* land of prosperity or opportunity
* land of gangs
* land of homeless
* land of rednecks
* land of Christians
* (whatever)
Each of which is epitomized by some TV series, I'll bet.
It's a lot like the parable of 3 blind men touching an elephant...
posted by kschang at 12:29 AM on April 18, 2022
One more data point, from someone who commutes to New York City: Since legalization, I have definitely noticed I smell it more often on the street now (and there are no stores licensed in New York yet). Like maybe if I'm out walking, I might smell it once or even twice, depending on the number of FedEx trucks double-parked. The smell is gone after you've walked five more steps, and it's not always easy identifying the culprit. I definitely haven't seen (in Manhattan or Brooklyn, anyway) packs of feral teens blowing smoke in people's faces.
San Francisco's homelessness crisis vastly predates legalization. If you go to San Francisco, you'll be struck by the former far more than you will the occasional whiff of weed. But I imagine if, next time he's talking about the destruction wrought there, you respond 'Oh honey, that's not cannabis; it's capitalism!' it won't go over well.
posted by troywestfield at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
San Francisco's homelessness crisis vastly predates legalization. If you go to San Francisco, you'll be struck by the former far more than you will the occasional whiff of weed. But I imagine if, next time he's talking about the destruction wrought there, you respond 'Oh honey, that's not cannabis; it's capitalism!' it won't go over well.
posted by troywestfield at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Medical cannabis has been legal in our state since 2007. I'm a medical cannabis patient and hold a card allowing me to purchase different forms of marijuana at regulated dispensaries. It has helped me a lot with chronic pain. I use edibles in my home and bother no one. I think having this resource for patients with a variety of medical problems has taken some strain off of our health care system.
I think your partner's concern about "destruction" being brought down on America by marijuana is misplaced. Marijuana is the least of our problems. But we do appreciate his concern.
posted by furtheryet at 9:26 PM on April 15, 2022 [22 favorites]