for parents helping w/ college admissions, books, blogs, sites, etc.
March 30, 2022 3:59 PM Subscribe
There are approximately a thousand bajillion college admissions guides, but you guys are the filter, what was your guiding light during this especially joyful milestone in parenting?
Is there a book called “How to Help Your Kid Decide What Colleges to Apply To Even If They’re Only A Mediocre Student Though Super Sweet"? That would be perfect!
Feel free to give your own advice and guidance!
Is there a book called “How to Help Your Kid Decide What Colleges to Apply To Even If They’re Only A Mediocre Student Though Super Sweet"? That would be perfect!
Feel free to give your own advice and guidance!
I'm a fan of Colleges That Change Lives -- it started as a book, and now is a consortium of schools. Whether or not you or your kid are interested in these specific schools, I really loved the advice they offer.
My kid is a freshman at a small liberal arts college (about 2k students), which is really different from my experience at a large public university (40K+ students). That choice, along with deciding to go across the country, was totally driven by my kid. So maybe start with those basics: are you looking for a small or large school? Does your kid want to stay near you or be away? Do you need to consider in-state tuition at a public school? Start writing down the guidelines that will lead you.
Lastly, I'll say we were one of the many families to discover that some private colleges give more substantive financial aid than public institutions.
posted by BlahLaLa at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
My kid is a freshman at a small liberal arts college (about 2k students), which is really different from my experience at a large public university (40K+ students). That choice, along with deciding to go across the country, was totally driven by my kid. So maybe start with those basics: are you looking for a small or large school? Does your kid want to stay near you or be away? Do you need to consider in-state tuition at a public school? Start writing down the guidelines that will lead you.
Lastly, I'll say we were one of the many families to discover that some private colleges give more substantive financial aid than public institutions.
posted by BlahLaLa at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Price You Pay for College is a good guide to the college application process. It discusses the importance of finding a college that is a good fit for your child, rather than finding one that is "the best they can get into". The oft-repeated point is that there is no "best" for everyone. The point is finding the best for your kid.
It also provides a lot of discussion of how colleges obfuscate the cost, and the ways they use financial aid. By understanding the system better, you can often get a much better deal financially, while finding a good fit.
Another point (and this speaks, sadly, to momochan's experience), kids these days apply to so many colleges that a lot of colleges are just flooded with applications, and as a result it is much harder to predict where someone will get in. It can end up feeling random.
Good luck, and I hope you find a way to make the process fun for you and your kiddo!
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:09 PM on March 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
It also provides a lot of discussion of how colleges obfuscate the cost, and the ways they use financial aid. By understanding the system better, you can often get a much better deal financially, while finding a good fit.
Another point (and this speaks, sadly, to momochan's experience), kids these days apply to so many colleges that a lot of colleges are just flooded with applications, and as a result it is much harder to predict where someone will get in. It can end up feeling random.
Good luck, and I hope you find a way to make the process fun for you and your kiddo!
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:09 PM on March 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I had a good friend who went through the college search process with her daughter seven years ago. Her observation still rings in my ears: "The American college system is a racket where they tell you to do your best in high school so you can get in. And then those colleges use your application to create an inflated sense of exclusivity." She had lived in the EU for a long time and saw the U.S. system as very broken. As I start the college search with my child, I'm finding her words still true. Last week I learned that another friend's daughter--a stellar student (AP classes, top 10% of her class, etc.) and stellar person on paper and in person--was rejected by all eight schools she applied to.
I've read a couple of books detailing the changes in college admissions landscape since the 90's. Unfortunately, the goal of selectivity seems to be completely intentional. That we live in a society where 80,000 to 100,000 high-school seniors apply each year to NYU or UCLA because they want to keep learning, and schools use that to fluff their reputations rather than to add classrooms and teachers is, in my opinion, a moral failing. Especially when you couple it with falling graduation rates and climbing student loan rates.
My advice...treat applications to any school that admits fewer than 25% like a lottery ticket. And if you apply, make sure they're genuinely a good fit. Transferring can be a time-consuming energy suck. If your child has a specific desire about their education or other element of college living---say, creative writing programs, distance from home, diversity of the faculty, or being in a certain size city---prioritize your search around those, and pay less attention to the "brand" of the school.
Ensure your kid believes there are good reasons to attend every school they apply to, even if those reasons are really different from each other and even at "safety" schools (a term that's rightfully falling out of favor). It's a much better situation to be in to choose from three schools where there are things they like about each of them, than to choose between three schools that were on the list only because of high admit rates.
My kid's high-school has a robust search program for finding schools ("Naviance"). You might see if your child's school offers something similar. This blog post pointed me to a few other search engines with different flavors.
The forums at College Confidential have been useful in finding "like" programs at unfamiliar colleges/universities. That is, if my kid is interested in computer science at MIT, I can search on MIT or computer science and see conversations people have had about other programs they applied to, what they eventually chose, why, and how happy they are. It's a back-and-forth thread like TripAdvisor, so you can glean some good stuff if you focus what you're looking for.
YouTube has been great for getting a peek at what life is like on a variety of campuses. It's helped educate us about specific programs within a school, as well as the real campus life and studentship of places we hadn't even heard of.
Paths from community colleges to brand name 4-yr schools seem to be more robust in different parts of the country (maybe California, especially?). This wasn't a model that was familiar to me, deep in east coast ivy league region.
Perhaps controversial, I recommend avoiding the U.S. News college rankings. Inevitably the top 50 are all the same. If you do use it, consider skipping past the name brand schools and beginning your reading when you encounter schools you don't know much about.
Most of all, figure out how to walk the line of cheerleading your kid 100% while also keeping the application process realistic. Getting turned down by eight schools takes a toll no matter how amazing you are.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:36 PM on March 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've read a couple of books detailing the changes in college admissions landscape since the 90's. Unfortunately, the goal of selectivity seems to be completely intentional. That we live in a society where 80,000 to 100,000 high-school seniors apply each year to NYU or UCLA because they want to keep learning, and schools use that to fluff their reputations rather than to add classrooms and teachers is, in my opinion, a moral failing. Especially when you couple it with falling graduation rates and climbing student loan rates.
My advice...treat applications to any school that admits fewer than 25% like a lottery ticket. And if you apply, make sure they're genuinely a good fit. Transferring can be a time-consuming energy suck. If your child has a specific desire about their education or other element of college living---say, creative writing programs, distance from home, diversity of the faculty, or being in a certain size city---prioritize your search around those, and pay less attention to the "brand" of the school.
Ensure your kid believes there are good reasons to attend every school they apply to, even if those reasons are really different from each other and even at "safety" schools (a term that's rightfully falling out of favor). It's a much better situation to be in to choose from three schools where there are things they like about each of them, than to choose between three schools that were on the list only because of high admit rates.
My kid's high-school has a robust search program for finding schools ("Naviance"). You might see if your child's school offers something similar. This blog post pointed me to a few other search engines with different flavors.
The forums at College Confidential have been useful in finding "like" programs at unfamiliar colleges/universities. That is, if my kid is interested in computer science at MIT, I can search on MIT or computer science and see conversations people have had about other programs they applied to, what they eventually chose, why, and how happy they are. It's a back-and-forth thread like TripAdvisor, so you can glean some good stuff if you focus what you're looking for.
YouTube has been great for getting a peek at what life is like on a variety of campuses. It's helped educate us about specific programs within a school, as well as the real campus life and studentship of places we hadn't even heard of.
Paths from community colleges to brand name 4-yr schools seem to be more robust in different parts of the country (maybe California, especially?). This wasn't a model that was familiar to me, deep in east coast ivy league region.
Perhaps controversial, I recommend avoiding the U.S. News college rankings. Inevitably the top 50 are all the same. If you do use it, consider skipping past the name brand schools and beginning your reading when you encounter schools you don't know much about.
Most of all, figure out how to walk the line of cheerleading your kid 100% while also keeping the application process realistic. Getting turned down by eight schools takes a toll no matter how amazing you are.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:36 PM on March 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
My kid was definitely a mediocre student, and I was a valedictorian, national merit scholar, ivy league college professor who was super stressed out about it all for literal years.
BUT. There are sooooo many colleges. Not all of them are super selective. Encourage your kid to apply to a broad range of schools of different kinds, to better explore what they actually want. My kid got into: a highly selective small Colorado college, three big state schools, a tiny environmental college, and a well-known but not super selective east coast hippie/counterculture/arty/alternative college. He was rejected by an Ivy where he’d applied early decision and had an application completely ignored by a very selective New England small college (really, no acknowledgement at all). He selected the hippie school site unseen and is gloriously happy there. His grades have not improved but he’s doing cool things.
Meanwhile his best friend, the class valedictorian, applied to a dozen or more schools, all selective, and was admitted nowhere. She took a wonderful gap year and next year is going to a famous state school.
A lot if it is chance. Encourage your kid to stretch, explore, and follow their heart. They’ll land on their feet eventually.
posted by shadygrove at 9:05 PM on March 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
BUT. There are sooooo many colleges. Not all of them are super selective. Encourage your kid to apply to a broad range of schools of different kinds, to better explore what they actually want. My kid got into: a highly selective small Colorado college, three big state schools, a tiny environmental college, and a well-known but not super selective east coast hippie/counterculture/arty/alternative college. He was rejected by an Ivy where he’d applied early decision and had an application completely ignored by a very selective New England small college (really, no acknowledgement at all). He selected the hippie school site unseen and is gloriously happy there. His grades have not improved but he’s doing cool things.
Meanwhile his best friend, the class valedictorian, applied to a dozen or more schools, all selective, and was admitted nowhere. She took a wonderful gap year and next year is going to a famous state school.
A lot if it is chance. Encourage your kid to stretch, explore, and follow their heart. They’ll land on their feet eventually.
posted by shadygrove at 9:05 PM on March 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Parent of three kids here, two of whom have gone through a second search cycle after a gap year. We also hosted a Chinese exchange student for junior and senior year of HS. So I've been through... SIX college search cycles. Sigh.
The resources mentioned above are good suggestions. Two other ideas to add to the mix:
1 - Where possible, team up with other families whose kids are in your kid's friend group and are in the same ballpark on academics and target schools. Doing school visits together is fun, even if the kids don't end up going to the school. A big part of the process is the kids seeing themselves in college. Our son didn't really start to see it until fairly late in the process. They have no danged clue how to think about their options until they can first envision themselves being in college in the first place. Anyway, teaming up with other families makes the process more comfortable and fun for all.
2 - Allow me to put in a word for out of state public colleges, especially the ones that aren't the "flagship" public university of the state - which is usually the one with the big D1 football and/or basketball programs. We live in the Northeast US. One of our kids went to a public school in Colorado, and another went to a Cal State school in California. These aren't common paths, but both schools were about as good a financial deal as you can get. California also has pretty relaxed residency requirements, and the Cal State schools are SUPER cheap in state. Our Cal State student withdrew in COVID times and went in another direction, but she would have qualified for in-state tuition in her second year at school. Loads of options and the application requirements are reasonable.
Best of luck to you and your family - it's a crazy process and a broken system, but I hope all of you land on a choice that feels good for your younger human.
posted by sockshaveholes at 6:32 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
The resources mentioned above are good suggestions. Two other ideas to add to the mix:
1 - Where possible, team up with other families whose kids are in your kid's friend group and are in the same ballpark on academics and target schools. Doing school visits together is fun, even if the kids don't end up going to the school. A big part of the process is the kids seeing themselves in college. Our son didn't really start to see it until fairly late in the process. They have no danged clue how to think about their options until they can first envision themselves being in college in the first place. Anyway, teaming up with other families makes the process more comfortable and fun for all.
2 - Allow me to put in a word for out of state public colleges, especially the ones that aren't the "flagship" public university of the state - which is usually the one with the big D1 football and/or basketball programs. We live in the Northeast US. One of our kids went to a public school in Colorado, and another went to a Cal State school in California. These aren't common paths, but both schools were about as good a financial deal as you can get. California also has pretty relaxed residency requirements, and the Cal State schools are SUPER cheap in state. Our Cal State student withdrew in COVID times and went in another direction, but she would have qualified for in-state tuition in her second year at school. Loads of options and the application requirements are reasonable.
Best of luck to you and your family - it's a crazy process and a broken system, but I hope all of you land on a choice that feels good for your younger human.
posted by sockshaveholes at 6:32 AM on March 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am not sure what you meant when you described your child as a "mediocre student" but my daughter scored poorly on the ACT and was a B student in high school. She would have had a tough time getting admission to any of our state schools and other schools were pretty much out of the question. We decided that she would attend Community College to begin her education.
It was the best decision we could have made. She had taken some dual-credit classes in high school already which were taught through distance learning with the CC. She easily adapted to the rhythm of going full-time to CC and did well. Almost all of the CCs in my state are affiliated with one of the state universities and have guaranteed transfer when you have completed their program. Due to the dual-credit classes my daughter did this after 3 semesters and transferred to the nearest State University.
The cost of CC was almost entirely covered by her Pell grant and I could swing the rest. Therefore, she did not need any loans until two years into her education.
The only drawback was that it was harder as transfer student to find her "clique" once she entered University. She was able to solve this by joining several clubs and organizations that helped her meet other students.
If you are unsure about your child's admission chances, this can be a great way to ease into higher education.
posted by statusquoante at 7:02 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
It was the best decision we could have made. She had taken some dual-credit classes in high school already which were taught through distance learning with the CC. She easily adapted to the rhythm of going full-time to CC and did well. Almost all of the CCs in my state are affiliated with one of the state universities and have guaranteed transfer when you have completed their program. Due to the dual-credit classes my daughter did this after 3 semesters and transferred to the nearest State University.
The cost of CC was almost entirely covered by her Pell grant and I could swing the rest. Therefore, she did not need any loans until two years into her education.
The only drawback was that it was harder as transfer student to find her "clique" once she entered University. She was able to solve this by joining several clubs and organizations that helped her meet other students.
If you are unsure about your child's admission chances, this can be a great way to ease into higher education.
posted by statusquoante at 7:02 AM on March 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ooooh! Also? We would make up a spreadsheet to compare school costs side by side - tuition, room, board, fees, scholarships or grants. Then we could figure out a consistent net price across schools. (You can get the generic info from the Department of Education but it doesn't necessarily include whatever has been offered to your kid.)
This was really helpful for showing differences. Like, a 3/2 engineering program at a private school (not a master's just a BS) is gonna cost 3x as much as a 4-year engineering degree from a public school. Is that private school option really 3 times as good as the public school? Probably not!
Kids usually don't understand the magnitude of the numbers. For most of them, $50,000 is an abstraction and one they don't normally encounter in their lives. But every kid who has made it through American high school understands relative scale and proportions. Start there.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:05 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
This was really helpful for showing differences. Like, a 3/2 engineering program at a private school (not a master's just a BS) is gonna cost 3x as much as a 4-year engineering degree from a public school. Is that private school option really 3 times as good as the public school? Probably not!
Kids usually don't understand the magnitude of the numbers. For most of them, $50,000 is an abstraction and one they don't normally encounter in their lives. But every kid who has made it through American high school understands relative scale and proportions. Start there.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:05 AM on March 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
One more, sorry - test optional admissions is wreaking havoc on schools. Selective schools are seeing a lot more applicants because kids are shooting their shots on what would have been stretch schools for them in the past. The schools' selection processes are getting a little more random because of the lack of SAT/ACT scores as a forcing function. Our youngest didn't get into a decently selective school that should have been a pretty straightforward yes for her in pre-panini times. There were good reasons to get rid of standardized tests, but the market is wobbling around without a new equilibrium and clear guidelines.
Against that backdrop, overall enrollment in 4 year colleges in the US is now down something like 6% from the pre-panda peak. Once you get out of the crowded end of the market, there are gonna be lots of options and deals to be had. Private schools' aggregate discount rate is north of 50% off the list price. We saw some really attractive offers in our most recent post-panacetta search.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:10 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Against that backdrop, overall enrollment in 4 year colleges in the US is now down something like 6% from the pre-panda peak. Once you get out of the crowded end of the market, there are gonna be lots of options and deals to be had. Private schools' aggregate discount rate is north of 50% off the list price. We saw some really attractive offers in our most recent post-panacetta search.
posted by sockshaveholes at 7:10 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've been learning a lot in the Paying for College 101 FB group. In addition to lots of info on things related to money (FAFSA, how to ask for increased financial aid, chasing merit, etc.) there are quite a few "If my kid is interested in XYZ and has these stats, what other colleges should we consider?" posts.
posted by belladonna at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by belladonna at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Good news is that there are plenty of excellent colleges at which middling students do well.
Two things that are important to really realise. College admissions at any college you have heard of are much more competitive than they were when you were 18 and how much you can pay is one of the most important factors in choosing where to apply.
For every person that is accepted at an Ivy League college, there are multiple student who are genuinely at least as good. Those students with Ivy League stats go to to near Ivy schools and scholarship programmes at public flagship universities and so on down the chain. People apply to more schools than they used to. This means that you should not assume anywhere is a shoe-in unless you check the stats on what percentage they admit and with what GPA and test scores.
On the second point, at each price point there are better and worse financial aid and college choice strategies. A tippy-top student from a low income family will get a better deal at an elite private college than at community college. A good student willing to go outside their home state may be able to get an excellent scholarship at a public flagship cheaper than the equivalent in-state. Someone prepared to go to a college where most students have lower academic entry scores may well get offers with a substantive merit scholarship that means the overall costs is comparable to a public college. The cheapest out of pocket with no need or merit based aid is nearly always community college followed by in-state non-flagship. If you can afford $75k-$80k out of pocket per year, then you can ignore financial aid completely.
My recommendations for resources are the Parents forum and Financial Aid forums at College Confidential. They are up-to-date and full of the stereotypical sharp elbowed middle classes sharing their knowledge and tactics on choosing colleges and paying for them.
posted by plonkee at 11:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Two things that are important to really realise. College admissions at any college you have heard of are much more competitive than they were when you were 18 and how much you can pay is one of the most important factors in choosing where to apply.
For every person that is accepted at an Ivy League college, there are multiple student who are genuinely at least as good. Those students with Ivy League stats go to to near Ivy schools and scholarship programmes at public flagship universities and so on down the chain. People apply to more schools than they used to. This means that you should not assume anywhere is a shoe-in unless you check the stats on what percentage they admit and with what GPA and test scores.
On the second point, at each price point there are better and worse financial aid and college choice strategies. A tippy-top student from a low income family will get a better deal at an elite private college than at community college. A good student willing to go outside their home state may be able to get an excellent scholarship at a public flagship cheaper than the equivalent in-state. Someone prepared to go to a college where most students have lower academic entry scores may well get offers with a substantive merit scholarship that means the overall costs is comparable to a public college. The cheapest out of pocket with no need or merit based aid is nearly always community college followed by in-state non-flagship. If you can afford $75k-$80k out of pocket per year, then you can ignore financial aid completely.
My recommendations for resources are the Parents forum and Financial Aid forums at College Confidential. They are up-to-date and full of the stereotypical sharp elbowed middle classes sharing their knowledge and tactics on choosing colleges and paying for them.
posted by plonkee at 11:24 AM on March 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Colleges that Change Lives:
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:51 AM on April 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Colleges That Change Lives, Inc. (CTCL) is a non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement and support of a student-centered college search process. We support the goal of every student finding a college that develops a lifelong love of learning and provides the foundation for a successful and fulfilling life beyond college.They host college fairs and provide other resources for parents and kids during the college search process.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:51 AM on April 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
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The best advice we got when looking at schools was to think about the location- so city campus, rural campus, suburban campus- figuring out the type of campus can help narrow down the options for your kiddo.
posted by momochan at 4:19 PM on March 30, 2022 [2 favorites]