How to not care about making enemies at work
March 3, 2022 12:34 PM Subscribe
I have to collaborate with a different department and they consistently do a crap job on their end. I'm finally fed up and got permission to send one of those cc everyone and their mother emails with reference materials proving why they should handle this better. I hate the feeling I've got now, related to being aggressive or calling people out or something, and want to not do this to myself.
I did it very passive aggressively and got approval for how I said what I said before it went out but I still feel so yucky. I pointed out several areas where they are clearly dropping the ball. I gave them an out, sort of, claiming maybe I don't understand their processes and need more education.
It's clearly a power move and a dick move to send emails like this. I loathe being on the receiving end of them as it feels to me that either the person doesn't trust me to do my job or is trying to stir up trouble. In this case both are true. They have proven I can't trust the way they say they operate. And I AM stirring up trouble because I don't believe that they care enough about the tasks I own to do them properly without fear from higher ups knowing that they aren't valuing these projects even though these projects are more important than they might appear, to higher levels of my org.
They control a lot of information and probably have the power stance commonly associated with that. Or maybe they are just disorganized. Who knows. They are not working with me effectively, don't communicate well, I've talked to my boss about it before, and nothing has changed so I didn't see any other options.
I just feel like a bully or something. Like a snitch. But what else am I supposed to do? I'm not a people manager but I'm a project manager without any PM training so this is all I know to do. Call it out but play dumb so it sounds nice.
"I must be misunderstanding something about your operations because I thought it was x, but what's happening is y. Can you help me figure out what I could do differently to collaborate with you while accounting better for your operational processes? Do you have an internal document that you can share that breaks it down by project type so I know how to adjust my own approach to match how that process flow works for your dept.?" That kind of thing.
Ugh I feel so sleazy and I wish nobody ever had to send emails like this. Sadly I think the issue starts at the top. I'm also a woman in a discipline that is heavily centered on performing emotional labor so I'm also fielding the "women are bitches for pushing back" thing (at least in my head).
I don't even know how to identify what I'm feeling. It's not fear exactly, because I got approval and have backing if anything gets intense. Maybe guilt? Idk, I feel like I have to manipulate to get what I want and I'd rather not be that person. It feels gross. I guess I have managed to keep a fair amount of idealism for pushing 40....
Anyway. How do I learn to not be bothered by reasonable escalation that is probably warranted by the situation when diplomacy hasn't worked? This is bothering me way more than I want it to. So... Shadow work? What else? Thanks.
(I have a therapist but need to use her expensive time for other matters at the moment.)
I did it very passive aggressively and got approval for how I said what I said before it went out but I still feel so yucky. I pointed out several areas where they are clearly dropping the ball. I gave them an out, sort of, claiming maybe I don't understand their processes and need more education.
It's clearly a power move and a dick move to send emails like this. I loathe being on the receiving end of them as it feels to me that either the person doesn't trust me to do my job or is trying to stir up trouble. In this case both are true. They have proven I can't trust the way they say they operate. And I AM stirring up trouble because I don't believe that they care enough about the tasks I own to do them properly without fear from higher ups knowing that they aren't valuing these projects even though these projects are more important than they might appear, to higher levels of my org.
They control a lot of information and probably have the power stance commonly associated with that. Or maybe they are just disorganized. Who knows. They are not working with me effectively, don't communicate well, I've talked to my boss about it before, and nothing has changed so I didn't see any other options.
I just feel like a bully or something. Like a snitch. But what else am I supposed to do? I'm not a people manager but I'm a project manager without any PM training so this is all I know to do. Call it out but play dumb so it sounds nice.
"I must be misunderstanding something about your operations because I thought it was x, but what's happening is y. Can you help me figure out what I could do differently to collaborate with you while accounting better for your operational processes? Do you have an internal document that you can share that breaks it down by project type so I know how to adjust my own approach to match how that process flow works for your dept.?" That kind of thing.
Ugh I feel so sleazy and I wish nobody ever had to send emails like this. Sadly I think the issue starts at the top. I'm also a woman in a discipline that is heavily centered on performing emotional labor so I'm also fielding the "women are bitches for pushing back" thing (at least in my head).
I don't even know how to identify what I'm feeling. It's not fear exactly, because I got approval and have backing if anything gets intense. Maybe guilt? Idk, I feel like I have to manipulate to get what I want and I'd rather not be that person. It feels gross. I guess I have managed to keep a fair amount of idealism for pushing 40....
Anyway. How do I learn to not be bothered by reasonable escalation that is probably warranted by the situation when diplomacy hasn't worked? This is bothering me way more than I want it to. So... Shadow work? What else? Thanks.
(I have a therapist but need to use her expensive time for other matters at the moment.)
I go through these same cycles all the time:
1. I rely on a coworker to provide something to me so I can do my job
2. The more lackadaisical they become the closer to my deadline, the more frantic I get
3. My unconscious starts screaming at me that we MUST let the people know what we need NOW
4. Me & my unconscious write the thing & send it
5. Now that old fear has been replaced by a new fear that we have ANGERED the people and now they'll start behaving even MORE erratically oh my god oh no oh my god oh no
The only reason i know all of this is because it happens to me all the time & I spend a lot of time figuring out how to make it stop, because the emotional repercussions keep reprecussing all day after that.
The advice that I'm giving myself is to just, I don't know, hear my unconscious screaming at me and acknowledge it without immediately getting my typing fingers going. And what you did by couching it in "help me understand" as well as getting another pair of eyes on it are both very good. This is just an aspect of modern work culture that we just have to figure out how to live with.
posted by bleep at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
1. I rely on a coworker to provide something to me so I can do my job
2. The more lackadaisical they become the closer to my deadline, the more frantic I get
3. My unconscious starts screaming at me that we MUST let the people know what we need NOW
4. Me & my unconscious write the thing & send it
5. Now that old fear has been replaced by a new fear that we have ANGERED the people and now they'll start behaving even MORE erratically oh my god oh no oh my god oh no
The only reason i know all of this is because it happens to me all the time & I spend a lot of time figuring out how to make it stop, because the emotional repercussions keep reprecussing all day after that.
The advice that I'm giving myself is to just, I don't know, hear my unconscious screaming at me and acknowledge it without immediately getting my typing fingers going. And what you did by couching it in "help me understand" as well as getting another pair of eyes on it are both very good. This is just an aspect of modern work culture that we just have to figure out how to live with.
posted by bleep at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: A few mental models that I find helpful when gentle measures haven't worked and I have to hold somebody accountable for something more firmly:
posted by dreamyshade at 12:53 PM on March 3, 2022 [24 favorites]
- Distinguish between "nice" and other attributes that are important in one's concept of oneself (like kind, ethical, appropriate, helpful). It may not be "nice" to send an email requesting accountability, but it can still be appropriate and helpful. (Lots of articles online about this re "nice" vs "kind".)
- Orient toward the goal. Presumably this work collaboration is meant to do something constructive for other people in some way, and this step was part of working toward a constructive goal.
- Process the chemicals. Doing stuff like this can create a physical stress response in the body (adrenaline, etc), because the body knows there's a threat and wants to prepare to physically. At a desk job, that's not really relevant or helpful, but it still happens. So it can help to do something with the body that reminds it that it's safe - brief moderately-intense exercise (go up and down some stairs, etc), eat a snack, make a cup of tea, wash your face, get a hug, or ideally all of that (or your preferred equivalents).
posted by dreamyshade at 12:53 PM on March 3, 2022 [24 favorites]
Response by poster: That's an interesting point. My boss seems to very quickly and naturally own any task that they feel should not be delegated but did not do that here. My boss also doesn't seem to move to "fight for us" with others in the org, though, so maybe you're onto something there. I don't answer to those other people in any way, so I think I'm "safe" but you're right in an ideal world the department head would speak to the other.
posted by crunchy potato at 12:55 PM on March 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by crunchy potato at 12:55 PM on March 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yikes. That would realllly stress me out too! I'm so sorry you're in that position. I agree with heatherlogan that your boss ought to be speaking to this other team member's boss rather than leave you to handle it. But failing that, here's my suggestion:
The way to turn the passive-aggressiveness of a "I think you fucked up but maybe I don't understand this" email into a direct, assertive communication is to write a "now that we're about to start working on the next thing, let's make sure we meet these standards and hit all items on this checklist". Build in some elasticity by setting out a schedule that asks for their deliverables in parts, so that you can bounce it right back to them when they send you an inadequate draft - if necessary, attach the original email to show the standards originally established. These emails would also get cc'd to everyone's mother, but these have the effect of making you come across as someone who is extra invested in making the project a success (and documents your efforts!), as opposed to seeming like someone who is pointing fingers of blame too late when things go wrong... which is not a good look.
You think that might work better for you?
posted by MiraK at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
The way to turn the passive-aggressiveness of a "I think you fucked up but maybe I don't understand this" email into a direct, assertive communication is to write a "now that we're about to start working on the next thing, let's make sure we meet these standards and hit all items on this checklist". Build in some elasticity by setting out a schedule that asks for their deliverables in parts, so that you can bounce it right back to them when they send you an inadequate draft - if necessary, attach the original email to show the standards originally established. These emails would also get cc'd to everyone's mother, but these have the effect of making you come across as someone who is extra invested in making the project a success (and documents your efforts!), as opposed to seeming like someone who is pointing fingers of blame too late when things go wrong... which is not a good look.
You think that might work better for you?
posted by MiraK at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Another approach, which works best when the heat ISN'T on, is approaching in a spirit of inquiry. "[These problematic things] are happening" (keep this part very factual) "which are causing [these problems] on our end" (again, factual) "and I'm not sure what's going on. Can you help me understand so we can make this better?"
posted by humbug at 1:02 PM on March 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by humbug at 1:02 PM on March 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I’m a well-regarded freelancer in a very competitive industry.
If tactful and diplomatic requests don’t work the first couple of times, I directly say what I think needs to be said to get the job done.
It’s not personal, it’s business.
I use short sentences, 5 cent words (as opposed to academese/weasel language), ask for replies and results.
I’m not trying to understand or evaluate, I’m trying to meet the deadlines with the deliverables we’re contracted to provide.
I can’t control the reactions of other people on my teams.
posted by Ideefixe at 1:13 PM on March 3, 2022 [24 favorites]
If tactful and diplomatic requests don’t work the first couple of times, I directly say what I think needs to be said to get the job done.
It’s not personal, it’s business.
I use short sentences, 5 cent words (as opposed to academese/weasel language), ask for replies and results.
I’m not trying to understand or evaluate, I’m trying to meet the deadlines with the deliverables we’re contracted to provide.
I can’t control the reactions of other people on my teams.
posted by Ideefixe at 1:13 PM on March 3, 2022 [24 favorites]
I have to send those copy-everyone-and-their-mother emails rather frequently, but I avoid the temptation to speculate on why it’s taking so long to get whatever-it-is done. I just aim to make the process and timeline visible to the boss/authority figure who cares about it. I might add the boss as a new recipient to an existing thread, e.g. Hi Colleague, Boss (copied) is asking about Project. I received Data 1 awhile back (thanks, btw), but I still need Data 2 and Preferred Process X, and Deadline M is coming up fast. Do you need anything else from me?
You don’t need to say or even imply that their performance is bad. Just open the lid so the light shines in, and let the situation speak for itself.
posted by jon1270 at 1:15 PM on March 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
You don’t need to say or even imply that their performance is bad. Just open the lid so the light shines in, and let the situation speak for itself.
posted by jon1270 at 1:15 PM on March 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I'm often in this situation too, having to write this email because someone else's project fell apart - AND I'm also often the person who gets these emails because sometimes things I do fall apart (occasionally my fault, often for reasons that are largely out of my control).
From being on both sides of the fence, my insights are:
Bad feelings are unavoidable:
- sometimes project managers have to say hard-to-hear things,
- it always sucks to fail or miss a deadline
- it always sucks when someone tells you you failed or miss a deadline
- nobody ever died from missing a deadline
- most employees spend some percentage of their time feeling annoyed at their manager
- women are socialized to feel guilty all the time
Good feelings are relatively easy to generate:
- an occasional handwritten note praising someone's great work feels amazing
- a public email or verbal moment in a meeting praising someone's great work feels amazing
- joke around a little when there's time
- make sure to praise people's hard work more than you critique their mess-ups
- if you're doing virtual and it's all zooms, send individual chats during meetings to say hi or say their cat is cute or whatever
- aim to spend 5 mins a day building some kind of rapport with one team or even better one person, like an email praising or thanking something they did
- inside jokes and meme texts are great easy ways to build rapport
- people respect managers who elicit good work - as long as you're respectful, strong results can outweigh solicitous bedside manner
- it feels great when a project goes well so that erases a lot of the annoyance; really praise and celebrate those wins
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:27 PM on March 3, 2022 [23 favorites]
From being on both sides of the fence, my insights are:
Bad feelings are unavoidable:
- sometimes project managers have to say hard-to-hear things,
- it always sucks to fail or miss a deadline
- it always sucks when someone tells you you failed or miss a deadline
- nobody ever died from missing a deadline
- most employees spend some percentage of their time feeling annoyed at their manager
- women are socialized to feel guilty all the time
Good feelings are relatively easy to generate:
- an occasional handwritten note praising someone's great work feels amazing
- a public email or verbal moment in a meeting praising someone's great work feels amazing
- joke around a little when there's time
- make sure to praise people's hard work more than you critique their mess-ups
- if you're doing virtual and it's all zooms, send individual chats during meetings to say hi or say their cat is cute or whatever
- aim to spend 5 mins a day building some kind of rapport with one team or even better one person, like an email praising or thanking something they did
- inside jokes and meme texts are great easy ways to build rapport
- people respect managers who elicit good work - as long as you're respectful, strong results can outweigh solicitous bedside manner
- it feels great when a project goes well so that erases a lot of the annoyance; really praise and celebrate those wins
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:27 PM on March 3, 2022 [23 favorites]
This strikes me as an outsized response to a normal thing — this isn’t a “power move” or “bullying” or anything like that. This is an incredibly normal part of doing business. And this is business! This is not a family or a creative community or whatever, it’s a job, and at work, this is a normal part of work culture. This is not about the email; I actually DO think you should talk to your therapist about this.
posted by Charity Garfein at 1:53 PM on March 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Charity Garfein at 1:53 PM on March 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
As you're not their manager, there's no need to worry about niceties like "praise in public, chastise in private".
On the other hand, if they have the info but they're just not willing to share and put up Dilbertian red tape then maybe request a specific liaison and some help to optimize the process of request and reply may help, esp. if it's something that can benefit both sides. Often interdepartmental requests come across more of a chore than a chance to shine. Maybe offer bit more of a carrot rather than a stick?
posted by kschang at 2:09 PM on March 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, if they have the info but they're just not willing to share and put up Dilbertian red tape then maybe request a specific liaison and some help to optimize the process of request and reply may help, esp. if it's something that can benefit both sides. Often interdepartmental requests come across more of a chore than a chance to shine. Maybe offer bit more of a carrot rather than a stick?
posted by kschang at 2:09 PM on March 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
It sounds to me like you handled this in a professional manner, and while it is possible that it is "passive aggressive" in one sense, what you've actually said (from what I can tell) is "how can we make this work better?". If you've been through any sort of "Quality Improvement" program(s) at your organization, that is the essential question to ask - so, in my non-manager opinion you're just doing your best to improve the entire organization. Pat yourself on the back, and try not to worry so much about the perception of this.
posted by TimHare at 2:10 PM on March 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by TimHare at 2:10 PM on March 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I don't want to threadsit but just to clarify, if I have several projects at any given time, including some that involve this department, and I never know who it is assigned to, how exactly would I track the minutia? They have a process that theoretically could automatically email me when a step is taken but it doesn't currently. (I asked in my email if I can be given that functionality.) The main person I need to talk to who is also responsible for delegating tasks doesn't answer my communication until the last minute and then they want to have a quick phone call right then. And because they are a couple of levels above me I feel awkward being firm, and what good does it do if they refuse to email about anything anyway? (I know I can reply to my own email with what is discussed in the call but I resent this person making more work for me.) Possibly unanswerable by any of you, but: Why does their current internal process ask when do you need it by if they aren't tracking that?
My main supervisor is one level below this person so cc'ing them isn't likey to do much. I really hate having to involve upper management on something that feels so petty. In my case, "boss is asking about x" would be a lie. Boss trusts me to stay on top of x and come to them if there is an issue, and basically whatever I want to do to resolve it they tend to approve.
This department has missed every deadline I've requested things by, and their communication at every stage is delayed or non-existent. I suppose based on the culture that means I'm expected to hound them to stay on top of my project? There is no way to get them to own more of that part of the process once I send it to them? Or at least be transparent that they ignore these requested deadlines so I can modify how I send things to them? As a person with ADHD and probably also autism, I'm already stretched to the limits with all this planning and organizing. Having to figure out who is doing what and circle back at regular intervals sounds exhausting.
Requesting a liason that isn't the head person sounds like a great idea. We had one but they left the org. Even having one, they have to route stuff to the top, the top finds something (anything) to change before approvals happen. I have a Master's in writing and they wanted to modify the language on a document where the result would be more unclear not less. I did push back and the original version was approved (after several days waiting on a the different levels to work through the decision) but it's needlessly time consuming to manage this type of dynamic. I guess I'm just not used to work cultures like this one and I'll just have to pad my project timelines to account for what seems like a bunch of nonsense.
posted by crunchy potato at 2:27 PM on March 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
My main supervisor is one level below this person so cc'ing them isn't likey to do much. I really hate having to involve upper management on something that feels so petty. In my case, "boss is asking about x" would be a lie. Boss trusts me to stay on top of x and come to them if there is an issue, and basically whatever I want to do to resolve it they tend to approve.
This department has missed every deadline I've requested things by, and their communication at every stage is delayed or non-existent. I suppose based on the culture that means I'm expected to hound them to stay on top of my project? There is no way to get them to own more of that part of the process once I send it to them? Or at least be transparent that they ignore these requested deadlines so I can modify how I send things to them? As a person with ADHD and probably also autism, I'm already stretched to the limits with all this planning and organizing. Having to figure out who is doing what and circle back at regular intervals sounds exhausting.
Requesting a liason that isn't the head person sounds like a great idea. We had one but they left the org. Even having one, they have to route stuff to the top, the top finds something (anything) to change before approvals happen. I have a Master's in writing and they wanted to modify the language on a document where the result would be more unclear not less. I did push back and the original version was approved (after several days waiting on a the different levels to work through the decision) but it's needlessly time consuming to manage this type of dynamic. I guess I'm just not used to work cultures like this one and I'll just have to pad my project timelines to account for what seems like a bunch of nonsense.
posted by crunchy potato at 2:27 PM on March 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
The ""I must be misunderstanding something ..." aggression can backfire. I had a colleague who opened an inter-departmental thunderbolt with very similar language. The reply came from the head of the receiving department, cc the head of my colleague's department, that wasn't much more than "I see you've hired someone very stupid who doesn't understand how companies work."
I know you don't need to make friends, but no-one will pay attention to the substance of what you wrote after reading a direct attack like that.
posted by scruss at 3:03 PM on March 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know you don't need to make friends, but no-one will pay attention to the substance of what you wrote after reading a direct attack like that.
posted by scruss at 3:03 PM on March 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I don't know, I think you shouldn't necessarily disregard your gut on this. The "cc boss on a chastisement" thing is aggressive and, maybe for certain personalities, satisfying but it's not clear to me that it's actually constructive. I think being as frank and assertive as you can muster with either your cross-department colleagues or their bosses or your boss is a more productive move. The one use-case in which I think the passive-aggressive cc might serve you is if you've abandoned all hope of achieving the change you seek, and have moved into full cover-your-ass-to-make-culpability-clear mode.
posted by dusty potato at 3:37 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:37 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
> if ... I never know who it is assigned to, how exactly would I track the minutia?
You don't have to track THEIR minutiae at all. You do have to track what YOU need from them, and it's much, much better to be direct by following up immediately when deadlines pass by, than to wait until afterwards to publicly email them about their failures.
> They have a process that theoretically could automatically email me when a step is taken but it doesn't currently. (I asked in my email if I can be given that functionality.)
You don't need to ask to be given that functionality unless it's part of your job. Rather than trying to make sure they're doing their job, focus on doggedly going after what you need from them. There's a difference between those two things - might seem subtle but it's there.
Focus narrowly on your bottom line: you need a notification when the step is completed. That is a concrete deliverable you can ask for directly, in writing, right from the start - and even set a deadline. You don't care whether they use the automatic notification, right? For all you care they can notify you via a live barbershop quartet.
So ask for a notification of step completion by a certain date in your initial email. If you don't get notified by that date, you follow up immediately and directly, attaching your initial request and cc'ing all their mothers and aunties, asking, "Can you please give me an update on this? I was expecting to be notified of this step by today but I haven't heard anything. Thanks!"
These follow ups ARE an integral part of your job. You can't be squeamish about writing these follow up emails, and if you are, then that's a gap in your skill set that you are responsible for fixing.
> The main person I need to talk to who is also responsible for delegating tasks doesn't answer my communication until the last minute
I've worked with folks like this, it's super annoying! But it is also quite straightforward to resolve:
- you start by explicitly set a deadline for them to respond to you. "Main person, can you please confirm that this plan works for you? I would appreciate it if you can confirm by tomorrow noon. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks!"
- And then tomorrow at noon, you email them (plus cc their mommies) saying, "Hi main person, have you had a chance to evaluate whether this works for you? I'm happy to clarify any questions you might have. Hoping you can confirm by cob today, thanks."
- (needless to say you anticipate that they won't respond till last minute so the deadlines you give them are well ahead of your actual deadline)
I know I can reply to my own email with what is discussed in the call but I resent this person making more work for me.
IMO this is the only part of your post or comments that seems a bit unreasonable. This is part of your job: falls under "working cohesively with the rest of the team". Your colleagues are bound to have strange-to-you habits, so you will always need to work around these in order to get your work done; this is normal and reasonable. (You also have strange-to-them habits which your colleagues are working around in order to get what they need from you.)
You don't have to be rude or anything, and you don't even have to be "firm". It's perfectly standard business practice.
"Hi main person, thanks for chatting with me on the phone about this task. I'll keep an eye out for your notification about the step being complete by Friday. If you hit any roadblocks, I'm happy to jump on a call again to work it out. Thanks!"
> Possibly unanswerable by any of you, but: Why does their current internal process ask when do you need it by if they aren't tracking that?
Yeah I really hear you and empathize with your frustration! However I want to point out that this statement is another instance when you're needlessly worrying about how other people are going about their jobs - this is at least one burden you can easily shed.
posted by MiraK at 4:25 PM on March 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
You don't have to track THEIR minutiae at all. You do have to track what YOU need from them, and it's much, much better to be direct by following up immediately when deadlines pass by, than to wait until afterwards to publicly email them about their failures.
> They have a process that theoretically could automatically email me when a step is taken but it doesn't currently. (I asked in my email if I can be given that functionality.)
You don't need to ask to be given that functionality unless it's part of your job. Rather than trying to make sure they're doing their job, focus on doggedly going after what you need from them. There's a difference between those two things - might seem subtle but it's there.
Focus narrowly on your bottom line: you need a notification when the step is completed. That is a concrete deliverable you can ask for directly, in writing, right from the start - and even set a deadline. You don't care whether they use the automatic notification, right? For all you care they can notify you via a live barbershop quartet.
So ask for a notification of step completion by a certain date in your initial email. If you don't get notified by that date, you follow up immediately and directly, attaching your initial request and cc'ing all their mothers and aunties, asking, "Can you please give me an update on this? I was expecting to be notified of this step by today but I haven't heard anything. Thanks!"
These follow ups ARE an integral part of your job. You can't be squeamish about writing these follow up emails, and if you are, then that's a gap in your skill set that you are responsible for fixing.
> The main person I need to talk to who is also responsible for delegating tasks doesn't answer my communication until the last minute
I've worked with folks like this, it's super annoying! But it is also quite straightforward to resolve:
- you start by explicitly set a deadline for them to respond to you. "Main person, can you please confirm that this plan works for you? I would appreciate it if you can confirm by tomorrow noon. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks!"
- And then tomorrow at noon, you email them (plus cc their mommies) saying, "Hi main person, have you had a chance to evaluate whether this works for you? I'm happy to clarify any questions you might have. Hoping you can confirm by cob today, thanks."
- (needless to say you anticipate that they won't respond till last minute so the deadlines you give them are well ahead of your actual deadline)
I know I can reply to my own email with what is discussed in the call but I resent this person making more work for me.
IMO this is the only part of your post or comments that seems a bit unreasonable. This is part of your job: falls under "working cohesively with the rest of the team". Your colleagues are bound to have strange-to-you habits, so you will always need to work around these in order to get your work done; this is normal and reasonable. (You also have strange-to-them habits which your colleagues are working around in order to get what they need from you.)
You don't have to be rude or anything, and you don't even have to be "firm". It's perfectly standard business practice.
"Hi main person, thanks for chatting with me on the phone about this task. I'll keep an eye out for your notification about the step being complete by Friday. If you hit any roadblocks, I'm happy to jump on a call again to work it out. Thanks!"
> Possibly unanswerable by any of you, but: Why does their current internal process ask when do you need it by if they aren't tracking that?
Yeah I really hear you and empathize with your frustration! However I want to point out that this statement is another instance when you're needlessly worrying about how other people are going about their jobs - this is at least one burden you can easily shed.
posted by MiraK at 4:25 PM on March 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
I guess another possibility to go UNODIR on that department.
UNODIR is sort of a military joke / tactic used by US Navy SEALs in Vietnam who just want to hunt VC's, not dealing with red-tape, so they will transmit a daily report at the last minute "unless otherwise directed (UNODIR)" they'll be doing unspecified search and destroy near so-and-so at this so-and-so time, too late for the brass to countermand them.
In your case, you give that department a deadline, sorta like "Unless you prove to me otherwise by X, I will put into my report that your department has nothing to contribute" with the implication that it'll all be their fault, in very nice jargon and legalese, of course. And be prepared to throw them under the bus, figuratively speaking, of course. They'll get the hint that you're serious after eating crow a few times. You'll seriously burn your bridges, but you'll probably get results. ;)
posted by kschang at 7:31 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
UNODIR is sort of a military joke / tactic used by US Navy SEALs in Vietnam who just want to hunt VC's, not dealing with red-tape, so they will transmit a daily report at the last minute "unless otherwise directed (UNODIR)" they'll be doing unspecified search and destroy near so-and-so at this so-and-so time, too late for the brass to countermand them.
In your case, you give that department a deadline, sorta like "Unless you prove to me otherwise by X, I will put into my report that your department has nothing to contribute" with the implication that it'll all be their fault, in very nice jargon and legalese, of course. And be prepared to throw them under the bus, figuratively speaking, of course. They'll get the hint that you're serious after eating crow a few times. You'll seriously burn your bridges, but you'll probably get results. ;)
posted by kschang at 7:31 PM on March 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: These emails suck! It's tough to work with a team that drops the ball. A few things that help me:
- There's a difference between being nice to someone as a person at work vs. working with someone who needs participate in a work process that the organization has deemed important. To individuals, I can be friendly, sympathetic. To get to necessary work outcomes, I may need to be direct and/or create visibility to things not working, as a way of creating accountability/documentation.
- It is a reasonable expectation to expect other people to independently manage their own / their team's workload. It is a reasonable expectation to expect others to be able to communicate with you, if they can meet the deadline you've requested of them for the work they're responsible for, and/or to give you forewarning if they can no longer meet the deadline in reasonable timelines. These reasonable expectations are reasonable in reasonable companies. :) Really, you shouldn't have to baby sit an entire other department's work process. They're not undergraduate interns or brand new to professional environments
- That being said, you're likely not the only one who is having issues. There are companies/departments where for non-rationale (politics, incompetence, inexperience, etc.) reasons these expectations will never be met and no one seems to care enough or have enough power/responsibility to do something about it (e.g., fire, hire, performance review, etc. etc.). And truly, if you're in an environment when someone will snark back "I see you've hired someone very stupid who doesn't understand how companies work." (per scruss), this seems like a terrible place to be. In some cases, these are "sick systems" that will never improve despite any one regular worker's efforts. You can determine if you'd like to continue to work in this type of environment in the role you have.
- In the case where you're requesting an update, even if your boss hasn't directly asked you for an update, you can still say something like: "I am responsible for letting my boss know when my project is on track. Your deliverable is an important part of making this project on track, and my boss expects me to confirm with all parties that their deliverables are on track. What is the status of ABC, so I can represent your deliverable properly to my boss?"
- My nicest version in working with someone like this (assuming it's not pure incompetence/politics), is to position myself on their side. "X, I see that it is challenging for your department to hit these deadlines. What can I do or what can my broader team do so that we can advocate for what you need, e.g., more resources? to your or our collective bosses? What do you need from me to help you build a case to get these deadlines done? I can share how your deliverables contribute to my project that delivers $X to the company." In non-toxic companies, you create a dynamic where both of you are now on the same side, working together to solve a joint problem (that makes both of you look good if you solve it). I've found that I've needed to use this tactic a lot in project management type roles where others own a lot of actions, have good intentions, but are otherwise, overwhelmed by priorities from above vs. the resources they have
posted by ellerhodes at 1:45 AM on March 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
- There's a difference between being nice to someone as a person at work vs. working with someone who needs participate in a work process that the organization has deemed important. To individuals, I can be friendly, sympathetic. To get to necessary work outcomes, I may need to be direct and/or create visibility to things not working, as a way of creating accountability/documentation.
- It is a reasonable expectation to expect other people to independently manage their own / their team's workload. It is a reasonable expectation to expect others to be able to communicate with you, if they can meet the deadline you've requested of them for the work they're responsible for, and/or to give you forewarning if they can no longer meet the deadline in reasonable timelines. These reasonable expectations are reasonable in reasonable companies. :) Really, you shouldn't have to baby sit an entire other department's work process. They're not undergraduate interns or brand new to professional environments
- That being said, you're likely not the only one who is having issues. There are companies/departments where for non-rationale (politics, incompetence, inexperience, etc.) reasons these expectations will never be met and no one seems to care enough or have enough power/responsibility to do something about it (e.g., fire, hire, performance review, etc. etc.). And truly, if you're in an environment when someone will snark back "I see you've hired someone very stupid who doesn't understand how companies work." (per scruss), this seems like a terrible place to be. In some cases, these are "sick systems" that will never improve despite any one regular worker's efforts. You can determine if you'd like to continue to work in this type of environment in the role you have.
- In the case where you're requesting an update, even if your boss hasn't directly asked you for an update, you can still say something like: "I am responsible for letting my boss know when my project is on track. Your deliverable is an important part of making this project on track, and my boss expects me to confirm with all parties that their deliverables are on track. What is the status of ABC, so I can represent your deliverable properly to my boss?"
- My nicest version in working with someone like this (assuming it's not pure incompetence/politics), is to position myself on their side. "X, I see that it is challenging for your department to hit these deadlines. What can I do or what can my broader team do so that we can advocate for what you need, e.g., more resources? to your or our collective bosses? What do you need from me to help you build a case to get these deadlines done? I can share how your deliverables contribute to my project that delivers $X to the company." In non-toxic companies, you create a dynamic where both of you are now on the same side, working together to solve a joint problem (that makes both of you look good if you solve it). I've found that I've needed to use this tactic a lot in project management type roles where others own a lot of actions, have good intentions, but are otherwise, overwhelmed by priorities from above vs. the resources they have
posted by ellerhodes at 1:45 AM on March 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Would it be better for you to say nothing and continue to allow their failures to impact your work and your company’s work? Would it make you a better, nicer person to ignore or minimize what sounds like a quite serious problem? You didn’t tell them they were Bad People who should Feel Bad, you laid out an issue that SHOULD be fixed and brought it to the attention of people in a position to fix it. “Passive-aggressive” would be complaining about these things behind their backs without attempting to address them. Your email was, at worst, “proactive-irritated.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:50 AM on March 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:50 AM on March 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Final update before marking resolved.
Followed up with one of the contacts. They weren't very helpful in solving the problem but also made it clear to me that nobody in the department is rattled by my communication. There was no blowback of any kind. I believe the problem boils down to accountability as nobody over there is accountable for failing to meet the goals for my project.
As the regular follow up is an administrative burden I'm considering setting up automatic emails that will be phrased in a generic way that I can "set and forget." Having a better interface with this dept will improve multiple aspects of my work so I've got to get this figured out.
Thanks for all the suggestions and the variety of feedback which helps me see there's truly a wide range of perceptions for this type of situation. You also reminded me that this is a project management issue, and since I have no formal training on that whatsoever I am trying to sharpen my skills. And, I need to accept that I bear responsibility for knowing the status of my projects so I can monitor deadlines, and that means if I can't trust the other side of the project I have to figure out how to be a squeaky wheel.
Thanks to the PM skill highlighting, I sent an email for a different project and broke down what response I needed in bullets, and added that if they don't respond, I'll assume that means they are providing a specific type of answer to the question. I need to make it easier to give me the info I need. Thanks everyone!
posted by crunchy potato at 7:34 AM on March 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Followed up with one of the contacts. They weren't very helpful in solving the problem but also made it clear to me that nobody in the department is rattled by my communication. There was no blowback of any kind. I believe the problem boils down to accountability as nobody over there is accountable for failing to meet the goals for my project.
As the regular follow up is an administrative burden I'm considering setting up automatic emails that will be phrased in a generic way that I can "set and forget." Having a better interface with this dept will improve multiple aspects of my work so I've got to get this figured out.
Thanks for all the suggestions and the variety of feedback which helps me see there's truly a wide range of perceptions for this type of situation. You also reminded me that this is a project management issue, and since I have no formal training on that whatsoever I am trying to sharpen my skills. And, I need to accept that I bear responsibility for knowing the status of my projects so I can monitor deadlines, and that means if I can't trust the other side of the project I have to figure out how to be a squeaky wheel.
Thanks to the PM skill highlighting, I sent an email for a different project and broke down what response I needed in bullets, and added that if they don't respond, I'll assume that means they are providing a specific type of answer to the question. I need to make it easier to give me the info I need. Thanks everyone!
posted by crunchy potato at 7:34 AM on March 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by heatherlogan at 12:41 PM on March 3, 2022 [32 favorites]