Help me talk to - and reassure - my spouse about Ukraine
February 28, 2022 1:38 PM Subscribe
My spouse is, by their own admission, very anxious and cynical, and is unable to stop themself from doomscrolling about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Over the last couple of days our conversations on the topic have become harder and harder for me to navigate, and to stay calm and patient in. Any advice on how to deal with this in a more patient and caring manner would be much appreciated.
My spouse (they/them) is completely convinced that a nuclear attack on Britain (where we live, near enough to a major city for it to matter) is imminent. To the point where they will say that they "know" it's going to happen.
The last couple of mornings, they've struggled to get out of bed, saying that there's "no point; we're all going to die," and have been wanting to phone family and friends to make sure that every knows they're loved (which is never a bad thing, but under the circumstances speaks to my spouse's state of mind).
This morning they tried to convince me that it wasn't worth going to work (I work remotely, but keep regular office hours) because we'd be dead before the weekend. As far as I could tell they were sincere in this, until they read something on a news site that convinced them that perhaps the attack wouldn't come today. Yesterday, they asked me whether or not I thought we should euthenise our pets to save them dying alone, or in pain after an attack.
I've been trying to be patient in conversations about this. I've been trying to listen instead of speaking, and to give non-committal and soothing responses. I've learned that trying to reassure my spouse just leads to either aggressive questioning ("How do you know that?" "How can you believe that?" etc.) or outright dismissal ("I can't believe I married someone so naïve" was one of the more choice phrases uttered yesterday). With the question about our pets, I said "I don't think that's something that we need to be worried about doing right now, and I'd rather we show them how much we love them, and feel how much they love us," because it's all I could think to say.
I don't know how to navigate this. The best I can do is tell them that whatever comes we'll face it together, but this does nothing to help with the sheer panic and terror they go through repeatedly during the day. Today, when they stopped working, they immediately picked up their phone and started scrolling again, and within five minutes they were saying that Germany was going to start a shooting war in the Baltic sea.
I understand that this is terrifying to them, and I understand that they don't deal well with uncertainty. I get that I'm in the privileged position of being someone who tends not to worry about things that I don't have control over, and that not everyone has that luxury. I just don't know how to hold them together right now when everything is shifting and changing so fast.
I want more than anything for my spouse to feel safe, and they don't right now. Any advice?
N.B My spouse has over the years showed an absolute aversion to even contemplating therapy, so that's not going to be a helpful suggestion (sorry; I've made it often enough myself here on the green). I've been trying to find a therapist for myself for months but although I've tried a couple, I've yet to find one that clicks.
My spouse (they/them) is completely convinced that a nuclear attack on Britain (where we live, near enough to a major city for it to matter) is imminent. To the point where they will say that they "know" it's going to happen.
The last couple of mornings, they've struggled to get out of bed, saying that there's "no point; we're all going to die," and have been wanting to phone family and friends to make sure that every knows they're loved (which is never a bad thing, but under the circumstances speaks to my spouse's state of mind).
This morning they tried to convince me that it wasn't worth going to work (I work remotely, but keep regular office hours) because we'd be dead before the weekend. As far as I could tell they were sincere in this, until they read something on a news site that convinced them that perhaps the attack wouldn't come today. Yesterday, they asked me whether or not I thought we should euthenise our pets to save them dying alone, or in pain after an attack.
I've been trying to be patient in conversations about this. I've been trying to listen instead of speaking, and to give non-committal and soothing responses. I've learned that trying to reassure my spouse just leads to either aggressive questioning ("How do you know that?" "How can you believe that?" etc.) or outright dismissal ("I can't believe I married someone so naïve" was one of the more choice phrases uttered yesterday). With the question about our pets, I said "I don't think that's something that we need to be worried about doing right now, and I'd rather we show them how much we love them, and feel how much they love us," because it's all I could think to say.
I don't know how to navigate this. The best I can do is tell them that whatever comes we'll face it together, but this does nothing to help with the sheer panic and terror they go through repeatedly during the day. Today, when they stopped working, they immediately picked up their phone and started scrolling again, and within five minutes they were saying that Germany was going to start a shooting war in the Baltic sea.
I understand that this is terrifying to them, and I understand that they don't deal well with uncertainty. I get that I'm in the privileged position of being someone who tends not to worry about things that I don't have control over, and that not everyone has that luxury. I just don't know how to hold them together right now when everything is shifting and changing so fast.
I want more than anything for my spouse to feel safe, and they don't right now. Any advice?
N.B My spouse has over the years showed an absolute aversion to even contemplating therapy, so that's not going to be a helpful suggestion (sorry; I've made it often enough myself here on the green). I've been trying to find a therapist for myself for months but although I've tried a couple, I've yet to find one that clicks.
In-patient care? This sounds like an emergency to me.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 1:48 PM on February 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 1:48 PM on February 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
This sounds like a mental health crisis potentially? You can try the Samaritans 116 123 if 999 feels too much. Even if your partner won’t come to the phone they can talk to you to give you some support.
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 1:53 PM on February 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 1:53 PM on February 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
Yeah I'm not sure this is a "if you don't feel like getting therapy then you can just not" situation anymore; it is getting well into "a danger to self and others" territory. I do not know anything about emergency mental health care where you are, unfortunately, but that is probably your next move.
You cannot make them feel better; please focus on keeping yourself and your pets safe first, and de-escalating their panic second.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:55 PM on February 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
You cannot make them feel better; please focus on keeping yourself and your pets safe first, and de-escalating their panic second.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:55 PM on February 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
This sounds so hard, for both you and your partner. I agree with others above that it sounds like a mental-health emergency, and hope you’re able to find what you need to take care of yourself and your spouse. I imagine you know about these already, and people have mentioned Samaritans, but maybe one of the other crisis resources would have something that you or they could connect with.
https://www.anxietyuk.org.uk/
https://nopanic.org.uk/
https://www.mind.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:06 PM on February 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
https://www.anxietyuk.org.uk/
https://nopanic.org.uk/
https://www.mind.org.uk/about-us/contact-us/
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:06 PM on February 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is a mental break and they absolutely need professional help. You're not going to be able to help them alone. This is serious, it's escalating, and may lead to your partner harming themselves, your pets, or you. I don't say this to alarm you, but to make it clear how serious this can become, very quickly.
Call 111 and explain the situation. Ask what they recommend.
Besides Samaritans and Mind, you can also contact your local IAPT service, this is a bridge between the NHS and other mental health services who can sometimes refer adults more swiftly than GPs alone. Search for "IAPT" and your postcode here to find the nearest one. Note: they may be oversubscribed, but they might also be able to refer you onwards to someone else who can help. Unfortunately mental healthcare in the UK is in crisis right now and you may find some resistance unless your spouse is actively harming themselves, but do try and stay firm and insist you both need help.
You say your spouse is resistant to therapy, are they also resistant to the idea of treating this like a medical crisis? You may have some more success with talking about this from the perspective of their health rather than their emotions/mental state.
Here is a guide from Mind about helping someone seek mental healthcare.
Good luck. This sounds really hard. Please also reach out to family and friends who can support you, because you also deserve care and support right now.
posted by fight or flight at 2:08 PM on February 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Call 111 and explain the situation. Ask what they recommend.
Besides Samaritans and Mind, you can also contact your local IAPT service, this is a bridge between the NHS and other mental health services who can sometimes refer adults more swiftly than GPs alone. Search for "IAPT" and your postcode here to find the nearest one. Note: they may be oversubscribed, but they might also be able to refer you onwards to someone else who can help. Unfortunately mental healthcare in the UK is in crisis right now and you may find some resistance unless your spouse is actively harming themselves, but do try and stay firm and insist you both need help.
You say your spouse is resistant to therapy, are they also resistant to the idea of treating this like a medical crisis? You may have some more success with talking about this from the perspective of their health rather than their emotions/mental state.
Here is a guide from Mind about helping someone seek mental healthcare.
Good luck. This sounds really hard. Please also reach out to family and friends who can support you, because you also deserve care and support right now.
posted by fight or flight at 2:08 PM on February 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
I think this is a little bit of an emergency. I went through something sort of like this at the start of the pandemic - convinced that we were going to die, convinced I'd never see my father and brother again, almost unable to get out of bed. This was not a psychotic break for me, but it was the start of a very, very severe bout of depression. I think your spouse is in a better situation because it's likely that things will become much clearer about Ukraine in a matter of days
If you can possibly persuade them to stop looking at the news for even one day, that will help too. Even six or seven hours, if you can persuade them to eat an enticing meal and watch or read something that will make them laugh. Just the act of laughing will help them - laughter isn't the best medicine, but I found many times that jolting my brain with something really funny could break me out of the worst moments.
I had a couple of good days early in the pandemic, and this is how they went: On one, I lay around in bed in between cooking an easy but luxurious pasta dish and reading Jack Aubrey stories which I'd never read before. On another, I made a fancy bread and then my partner and I watched a light, Miyazaki-ish movie.
Melatonin or benedryl or anything that has a light sedative effect can also help. The point is to break the intensity of the feelings of fear and sorrow. Just interrupting them does a lot. If you can interrupt repeatedly over hours or days, not through persuasion but through rest, food, TV, hot showers, etc, you can sort of bootstrap up into a slightly better headspace.
One line of reasoning that I found a tiny bit helpful was that if we were all going to die, there was no particular point in doomscrolling every minute - I could take some hours off and doomscroll later.
If you can possibly entice them into not being on their phone for a few hours that will probably help. This sounds inadequate or insufficiently therapeutic, but it helped me a lot.
posted by Frowner at 2:17 PM on February 28, 2022 [23 favorites]
If you can possibly persuade them to stop looking at the news for even one day, that will help too. Even six or seven hours, if you can persuade them to eat an enticing meal and watch or read something that will make them laugh. Just the act of laughing will help them - laughter isn't the best medicine, but I found many times that jolting my brain with something really funny could break me out of the worst moments.
I had a couple of good days early in the pandemic, and this is how they went: On one, I lay around in bed in between cooking an easy but luxurious pasta dish and reading Jack Aubrey stories which I'd never read before. On another, I made a fancy bread and then my partner and I watched a light, Miyazaki-ish movie.
Melatonin or benedryl or anything that has a light sedative effect can also help. The point is to break the intensity of the feelings of fear and sorrow. Just interrupting them does a lot. If you can interrupt repeatedly over hours or days, not through persuasion but through rest, food, TV, hot showers, etc, you can sort of bootstrap up into a slightly better headspace.
One line of reasoning that I found a tiny bit helpful was that if we were all going to die, there was no particular point in doomscrolling every minute - I could take some hours off and doomscroll later.
If you can possibly entice them into not being on their phone for a few hours that will probably help. This sounds inadequate or insufficiently therapeutic, but it helped me a lot.
posted by Frowner at 2:17 PM on February 28, 2022 [23 favorites]
So, things are either going to work out fine and you guys will roll on through this, once again without therapy, or things will not be fine. If the timeline takes you to "not fine" I really don't like the finality and fatalism of their expressions of anxiety. Is the home safe? Are there things that could be used to self-harm or harm others? Obviously, if this person has access to guns, remove that access. Prescription pills? What is your network like? Do you have someone you can text in an emergency to come check on you or send for help? Do you have someone locally you can confide in? Is there anyone in your network that your partner trusts who can come and visit and talk them down? I agree that this sounds like a mental health breakdown. Understandable after all we've been through! But, the talk about killing the pets is either a purposeful cry for help, or an unintentional one. If they are truly believing what they say (and not just dramatizing to try to reach you) then that's about as grim as it gets. I assume you've been very plain in your speaking: "I think you are beyond the line of healthy thinking on this. To suggest we go ahead and kill our pets and stop working is not where we are at as a couple, as a community, as a country. I want you to talk this through with trained professionals who can give you more help and support right now for where you are at." If you are at all feeling like you are in danger, please reach out to your close people and consider where you have to go that would be safer. And, yes, call in to all docs/mental health services about this break with reality. I think your partner needs near-term emergency help. After all, if you all are about to be in for a major trauma like war, they need to get themselves together so that you all can survive. You aren't just going to lie on the floor and wait for missiles, right? You'd get your shit together and figure out a plan but you certainly can't do that with someone spiralling like this.
Hugs to you and your partner - this is an awful time and I'm sorry that you're both being affected this way.
posted by amanda at 2:26 PM on February 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
Hugs to you and your partner - this is an awful time and I'm sorry that you're both being affected this way.
posted by amanda at 2:26 PM on February 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
Your spouse is becoming really very unwell and you are at risk that they will decide that murder-suicide is an only option. Please tell people you know in real life what is happening, and work out who you would call or where you would go if you need to leave.
I am sure that it feels like I am exaggerating, but this happened in my family and the person in your position ended up climbing out of the bathroom window to get away. Their partner never quite needed hospitalisation, but it was a prompt for wider family members to encourage treatment of some kind. (I never heard the whole outcome.)
Really I would phone Samaritans or any other phone helpline you have access to and get their suggestions. Your partner needs to identify that they have a problem in order to get help and it doesn't sound like they do. You can try encouraging them to sleep, or to stop using their phone, or to be distracted by other things. But this is not solved by loving them a lot and trying to take their burden on for them, this is someone approaching a mental health crisis.
posted by plonkee at 3:12 PM on February 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
I am sure that it feels like I am exaggerating, but this happened in my family and the person in your position ended up climbing out of the bathroom window to get away. Their partner never quite needed hospitalisation, but it was a prompt for wider family members to encourage treatment of some kind. (I never heard the whole outcome.)
Really I would phone Samaritans or any other phone helpline you have access to and get their suggestions. Your partner needs to identify that they have a problem in order to get help and it doesn't sound like they do. You can try encouraging them to sleep, or to stop using their phone, or to be distracted by other things. But this is not solved by loving them a lot and trying to take their burden on for them, this is someone approaching a mental health crisis.
posted by plonkee at 3:12 PM on February 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I said "I don't think that's something that we need to be worried about doing right now, and I'd rather we show them how much we love them, and feel how much they love us," because it's all I could think to say
Sorry I don't have help to offer but I want to compliment you for this: it's a great response, and you came up with it under pressure.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:16 PM on February 28, 2022 [43 favorites]
Sorry I don't have help to offer but I want to compliment you for this: it's a great response, and you came up with it under pressure.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:16 PM on February 28, 2022 [43 favorites]
Your spouse is in a mental health crisis. For sure this is a worrying time in the world, and you are absolutely right that trying to reassure someone out of a crisis doesn't work. I also don't think there's much you can do to help them if they won't help themselves. Get yourself into therapy asap, but I'd also consider looking into emergency mental health resources for your spouse.
I am a bit worried for the safety of your pets and you as well. I am partly tempted to suggest you take the pets and go and tell them they need to get mental health treatment before you return. I'm not sure. But I'm saying this because I think it's an emergency situation.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:20 PM on February 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am a bit worried for the safety of your pets and you as well. I am partly tempted to suggest you take the pets and go and tell them they need to get mental health treatment before you return. I'm not sure. But I'm saying this because I think it's an emergency situation.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:20 PM on February 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Are there friends and family you can recruit to maybe spend more time (virtually or otherwise) with them for the next day or two? Also can someone take your pets and keep them at their house for a couple of days?
I do think that a spouse/long-term partner is the right person to say, "I need you to hear me as hard as you can: your behavior is frightening me. I need you to put down the phone and walk away from the news and spend a substantial part of your day doing something else and not talking about how we're going to die or being verbally abusive to me. Like, I am absolutely pulling the emergency brake right now and this is the most serious moment in our entire relationship, do you understand how serious I am and can you please try to trust me as the person you once chose to spend your life with that you are scaring me and I am concerned?"
I don't know if you and your spouse have ever had to have this conversation or prepare for this conversation before, but everybody should. My partner and I have codewords for "I am not joking right now I just need you to trust and believe me" and another one for like kidnappings or other covert warnings. If you have anything like that, if you ever had a conversation about "if things are real bad", this is the time to remind them of this conversation to back up how absolutely serious you are that this is not okay.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:35 PM on February 28, 2022 [32 favorites]
I do think that a spouse/long-term partner is the right person to say, "I need you to hear me as hard as you can: your behavior is frightening me. I need you to put down the phone and walk away from the news and spend a substantial part of your day doing something else and not talking about how we're going to die or being verbally abusive to me. Like, I am absolutely pulling the emergency brake right now and this is the most serious moment in our entire relationship, do you understand how serious I am and can you please try to trust me as the person you once chose to spend your life with that you are scaring me and I am concerned?"
I don't know if you and your spouse have ever had to have this conversation or prepare for this conversation before, but everybody should. My partner and I have codewords for "I am not joking right now I just need you to trust and believe me" and another one for like kidnappings or other covert warnings. If you have anything like that, if you ever had a conversation about "if things are real bad", this is the time to remind them of this conversation to back up how absolutely serious you are that this is not okay.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:35 PM on February 28, 2022 [32 favorites]
Oh, and Ukraine is off the table as a topic of discussion now. This is a common issue with QAnon people (many of whom are basically in freefalling psychosis), they'll start fights just to get the adrenaline hit and get to talk about their obsession some more.
Reassurance should simply be "nothing is happening right now that is an actual risk to you, de-center yourself" and "I'm not discussing this with you because you're struggling too much with the topic." You're not the Ukranian News Network, you have nothing useful or important to discuss with them about this topic. Tell them you will monitor high-level news and let them know if Ukraine is invading, but until then we're going to continue bathing and eating meals and performing the tasks of daily living. Not being able to perform those tasks is one of the check boxes for "harm to self". I think you can be kind and loving about their stress levels and need to prioritize self-care and managing their anxiety and getting appropriate rest and hydration, but you do not need to discuss Ukraine with them at this time.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:42 PM on February 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
Reassurance should simply be "nothing is happening right now that is an actual risk to you, de-center yourself" and "I'm not discussing this with you because you're struggling too much with the topic." You're not the Ukranian News Network, you have nothing useful or important to discuss with them about this topic. Tell them you will monitor high-level news and let them know if Ukraine is invading, but until then we're going to continue bathing and eating meals and performing the tasks of daily living. Not being able to perform those tasks is one of the check boxes for "harm to self". I think you can be kind and loving about their stress levels and need to prioritize self-care and managing their anxiety and getting appropriate rest and hydration, but you do not need to discuss Ukraine with them at this time.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:42 PM on February 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm a full on prepper with stockpiles of beans, and I'm finding your spouse's reaction paranoid and alarming.
At no time, in organizing for any possible disaster, have I contemplated destroying members of my family. I've also never stopped living my life.
My thought is that this isn't about Ukraine, or potential nuclear war. Ukraine is serving as a conduit for something much deeper.
This is a mental health crisis.
posted by champers at 4:49 PM on February 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
At no time, in organizing for any possible disaster, have I contemplated destroying members of my family. I've also never stopped living my life.
My thought is that this isn't about Ukraine, or potential nuclear war. Ukraine is serving as a conduit for something much deeper.
This is a mental health crisis.
posted by champers at 4:49 PM on February 28, 2022 [13 favorites]
Two thoughts that might be acceptable forms of help beyond what has been mentioned above:
- encourage vigorous exercise - it gives the body something to do with all that cortisal that is being released
- encourage them to ask for some anti-anxiety meds to help them sleep. I'm sure with all this worry they aren't sleeping well and perhaps it is easier to ask the doctor for a sleeping pill. Just encourage that to explain WHY they are have trouble sleeping - there are different pills with different profiles - they will want something that helps with worry induced insomnia.
posted by metahawk at 5:08 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
- encourage vigorous exercise - it gives the body something to do with all that cortisal that is being released
- encourage them to ask for some anti-anxiety meds to help them sleep. I'm sure with all this worry they aren't sleeping well and perhaps it is easier to ask the doctor for a sleeping pill. Just encourage that to explain WHY they are have trouble sleeping - there are different pills with different profiles - they will want something that helps with worry induced insomnia.
posted by metahawk at 5:08 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I just want to say, as someone who went through a very, very serious bout of depression precipitated by anxiety, that it is perfectly possible to think about death, to worry about the suffering of people or creatures who might survive you, to find it difficult to get out of bed, to be angry and curt with partners....and not have a psychotic break or be a danger to those around you. Trust your gut and your previous experience with your spouse; this is obviously a serious crisis for them, but if you aren't getting a sense of actual danger to your or danger to your pets, don't assume that acute fear and misery are going to translate outward into harm. Be wise but don't assume that mental illness means violence toward others.
posted by Frowner at 5:09 PM on February 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 5:09 PM on February 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
This person has already tried out the idea of killing the pets, which is well beyond "my poor kitty will be so sad and lonely when I am gone, ugh, another reason to hate myself, it would've been better off if I'd never met it." I'm pretty sure that if a similar comment had been made about a child no one would think it was a good idea to leave the spouse and the child alone together for a minute, and almost no one that the other spouse should stick around except in support of immediate mental health intervention. It is very hard to get your mind around the reality that a sick loved one is turning violent until it's too late. Hurt feelings are easier to fix than dead pets.
posted by praemunire at 5:40 PM on February 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 5:40 PM on February 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
The question about pets is a level beyond anxiety. It is a signal of severe mental harm.
But given therapy is not acceptable, what you have left is what you can do. And you cannot just be "nice" and "calm" until they stop because that is reinforcing their mindset that they know better than you and that you aren't engaged enough.
Work out what your boundaries are. Will you discuss it? Will you discuss options if war involves your country? Will you discuss likelihood of nuclear attack? Will you discuss information literacy? Work that out then communicate it. Then hold to it.
Between training and inclination I would be discussing the media literacy and information literacy and analysis issues. I'd be discussing the experiences of being at war that have happened already. I would discuss some preparation, same way I do/did for pandemic. What I won't discuss are theories, future predictions, or analysis that come without identifiable and appropriate data. And I'd probably be a bit harsh on that, to be honest, because the way your partner is speaking to you is not kind, or concerned, it's dismissive and belittling.
I'd definitely encourage far better info diets and screen free moments, or even hand journalling this experience. Because if all they are doing is online, the recording of their thoughts is naturally fast paced and disjointed. Get a pen and write it down and see how you feel about the "let's kill the pets" plan. If they can reflect, that's a good sign. If the can't I would start looking at escalating to local and medical services.
posted by geek anachronism at 9:58 PM on February 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
But given therapy is not acceptable, what you have left is what you can do. And you cannot just be "nice" and "calm" until they stop because that is reinforcing their mindset that they know better than you and that you aren't engaged enough.
Work out what your boundaries are. Will you discuss it? Will you discuss options if war involves your country? Will you discuss likelihood of nuclear attack? Will you discuss information literacy? Work that out then communicate it. Then hold to it.
Between training and inclination I would be discussing the media literacy and information literacy and analysis issues. I'd be discussing the experiences of being at war that have happened already. I would discuss some preparation, same way I do/did for pandemic. What I won't discuss are theories, future predictions, or analysis that come without identifiable and appropriate data. And I'd probably be a bit harsh on that, to be honest, because the way your partner is speaking to you is not kind, or concerned, it's dismissive and belittling.
I'd definitely encourage far better info diets and screen free moments, or even hand journalling this experience. Because if all they are doing is online, the recording of their thoughts is naturally fast paced and disjointed. Get a pen and write it down and see how you feel about the "let's kill the pets" plan. If they can reflect, that's a good sign. If the can't I would start looking at escalating to local and medical services.
posted by geek anachronism at 9:58 PM on February 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just as a datapoint: I know people who are considering going to Ukraine to fight and even they are not this level of catastrophic about it. This is absolutely a mental break; treat accordingly. It’s not actually about Ukraine for your spouse.
posted by corb at 10:10 PM on February 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:10 PM on February 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
N'thing everybody else... This is not something you can rationally argue them out of. Seek professional help immediately. Watch them as much as possible. Warn their friends, the ones you can trust NOT to feed into her nihilistic attitude.
Rationally, Russia has no reason to nuke Ukraine. Ukraine has no nukes of their own (part of the reason there's all this talk of US betrayal, something about a security guarantee) and for Putin to use some now would mean admitting his conventional forces can't do a simple job: conquering a small neighbor, i.e. he messed up, and Putin's chance of admitting that would be the same as he spontaneously came to his senses and resigned to retire: never. And if there's no reason for Russia to nuke Ukraine, why would he nuke anyone else?
posted by kschang at 10:22 PM on February 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Rationally, Russia has no reason to nuke Ukraine. Ukraine has no nukes of their own (part of the reason there's all this talk of US betrayal, something about a security guarantee) and for Putin to use some now would mean admitting his conventional forces can't do a simple job: conquering a small neighbor, i.e. he messed up, and Putin's chance of admitting that would be the same as he spontaneously came to his senses and resigned to retire: never. And if there's no reason for Russia to nuke Ukraine, why would he nuke anyone else?
posted by kschang at 10:22 PM on February 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Please remember OP's spouse uses they/them pronouns.
posted by lesser weasel at 11:01 PM on February 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by lesser weasel at 11:01 PM on February 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't have any advice that hasn't been repeated above, but I really liked the script in Lyn Never's comment here. I would hope the seriousness of sitting down and telling a loved one, "You're frightening me" would have an effect, especially considering therapy isn't immediately on the table.
I'm sorry. This is an awful situation. I truly hope something gets through to them and it works out for the best.
posted by lesser weasel at 11:11 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry. This is an awful situation. I truly hope something gets through to them and it works out for the best.
posted by lesser weasel at 11:11 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I never reached the same level, but some years ago I became briefly obsessed with creating an emergency plan "in case of nuclear war", like, we have our fire and earthquake plans and we should have an "SF gets nuked" plan, and I was up working on it like 3:00 in the morning because it was so obviously critical that we be ready.
Then I looked up some blast radii of modern nuclear bombs and decided my plan in that case was "die, probably", which was honestly a relief because it meant I didn't have to plan for it anymore. So, that's one option: "ok, assume we have 1-3 days to live. How do you want to spend them?" Get them off their phone, if you can.
Option 2 is, "if Sunday arrives and this thing has not happened, I need you to admit to me that you were wrong and your ability to judge reality is off, and seek treatment." These options can be done in parallel. Both are aimed at getting them to engage with the ways the keeping wail inside their head is not, actually, a perfectly logical and reliable foreseer of the future.
And if they can't engage with either of those, or if they react in a way where he can't even admit to having been wrong because it just FELT so certain and if it wasn't yesterday it will SURELY be tomorrow, I hope that will be a signal to you that you're going to need to consider more drastic steps (like leaving, but also whatever other emergency resources you may have available for people in crisis and not be willing to try yet).
posted by Lady Li at 11:22 PM on February 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Then I looked up some blast radii of modern nuclear bombs and decided my plan in that case was "die, probably", which was honestly a relief because it meant I didn't have to plan for it anymore. So, that's one option: "ok, assume we have 1-3 days to live. How do you want to spend them?" Get them off their phone, if you can.
Option 2 is, "if Sunday arrives and this thing has not happened, I need you to admit to me that you were wrong and your ability to judge reality is off, and seek treatment." These options can be done in parallel. Both are aimed at getting them to engage with the ways the keeping wail inside their head is not, actually, a perfectly logical and reliable foreseer of the future.
And if they can't engage with either of those, or if they react in a way where he can't even admit to having been wrong because it just FELT so certain and if it wasn't yesterday it will SURELY be tomorrow, I hope that will be a signal to you that you're going to need to consider more drastic steps (like leaving, but also whatever other emergency resources you may have available for people in crisis and not be willing to try yet).
posted by Lady Li at 11:22 PM on February 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yesterday, they asked me whether or not I thought we should euthenise our pets to save them dying alone, or in pain after an attack.
If they are talking about killing your pets then this is a mental health crisis warranting an involuntary hospitalization. They are a danger to themselves and others.
My brother's friend came home one day to find his boyfriend had killed their cats and hung himself. It happens.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:38 AM on March 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
If they are talking about killing your pets then this is a mental health crisis warranting an involuntary hospitalization. They are a danger to themselves and others.
My brother's friend came home one day to find his boyfriend had killed their cats and hung himself. It happens.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:38 AM on March 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Note: Please use the OP's pronouns (they / them / theirs) for their spouse. I've corrected a couple of comments rather than delete them, but we do not like to edit comments, and it's not sustainable in any case. Please don't assume gender that isn't specified. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:03 AM on March 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:03 AM on March 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for all your replies.
To be completely clear, because I wasn't in my original post: I do not believe my spouse to be in a full-blown mental health crisis. Nor do I get the sense that they are a danger to themself, to me, or to our pets. The talk about euthanising pets was shocking, but in the context in which it was said did not communicate an intention to do so.
I will, however, stay alert as to the possibility that something more serious could be happening, mentally. Right now I think my spouse is just very, very afraid.
We had a talk this morning in which I stated that I was no longer willing to make predictions about what was happening in Ukraine. I told them that I would listen to their fears, and I would be present with them, and that whatever came we would face it together, but that I can't keep trying to give them reassurance that isn't mine to give (I don't know any more than they do) and which in any case they seem intent on rejecting.
They responded quite angrily — "fine, so I've got no-one to talk to about this then," — that sort of comment, but things have since settled down. I've tried to communicate how concerned I am both about their mental health and also about the effect that this is having on our relationship with one another, but I don't really feel like they're listening.
We're both working now, and that'll help a bit (though I can see they're still trawling through some fairly well-known unreliable news sites as I write). Later, I'll try to have a more in-depth discussion about all this, and I'll try to keep your suggestions in mind.
posted by six sided sock at 3:25 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
To be completely clear, because I wasn't in my original post: I do not believe my spouse to be in a full-blown mental health crisis. Nor do I get the sense that they are a danger to themself, to me, or to our pets. The talk about euthanising pets was shocking, but in the context in which it was said did not communicate an intention to do so.
I will, however, stay alert as to the possibility that something more serious could be happening, mentally. Right now I think my spouse is just very, very afraid.
We had a talk this morning in which I stated that I was no longer willing to make predictions about what was happening in Ukraine. I told them that I would listen to their fears, and I would be present with them, and that whatever came we would face it together, but that I can't keep trying to give them reassurance that isn't mine to give (I don't know any more than they do) and which in any case they seem intent on rejecting.
They responded quite angrily — "fine, so I've got no-one to talk to about this then," — that sort of comment, but things have since settled down. I've tried to communicate how concerned I am both about their mental health and also about the effect that this is having on our relationship with one another, but I don't really feel like they're listening.
We're both working now, and that'll help a bit (though I can see they're still trawling through some fairly well-known unreliable news sites as I write). Later, I'll try to have a more in-depth discussion about all this, and I'll try to keep your suggestions in mind.
posted by six sided sock at 3:25 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you for the update. I know from experience how difficult it is, so I hope you're reaching out to friends to support you as well. When I was dealing with my partner's crisis it felt wrong to try and do things for myself, even approaching someone else just to talk about what was going on was hard, but I desperately needed to do it.
In my situation, the only things that would get through to my partner -- who was likewise refusing to go to a therapist or seek help at that time -- was talking about how his actions were impacting me. I tried not to hold blame against him, I didn't accuse him of anything, but just reiterated out how stressed and upset I was, because I loved him and seeing him in pain also hurt me. Lyn Never's script is great for this.
Definitely keep talk about Ukraine off the table. You can't rationalise someone out of a position they didn't rationalise themselves into. Your partner is acting irrationally, compelled by fear. Trying to reason with them or persuade them to look at it differently won't work, so stick to talking about this as a mental health issue and a symptom of larger problems.
If things don't improve, you may have to lay down some ultimatums, but you must be able to stick with them and follow through if things don't get better. Don't set a rule and let them break it. In the end, I had to tell my partner that if he didn't seek medical help in the next few days, I would leave him and I wouldn't come back, because I literally would not be able to cope with watching him harm himself any further and would myself be at a crisis point. I packed a bag to go. That was what finally persuaded him that I was serious and he really needed help. I hope your situation doesn't come to that.
(Also, I have to say this: I didn't think my partner was at the point of a full-blown mental health crisis either until he had a bad night that turned into him banging his head against a wall. Then I realised just how long I had been walking on eggshells around him, how the cycles of good days and bad days had been getting shorter and shorter. He had been in crisis, on the edge of a full blown panic attack near constantly, for a long time. But when it got worse, it happened very fast. Now, he's got a diagnosis, is on medication, and says himself that he's the happiest and calmest he's been for years.)
posted by fight or flight at 4:18 AM on March 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
In my situation, the only things that would get through to my partner -- who was likewise refusing to go to a therapist or seek help at that time -- was talking about how his actions were impacting me. I tried not to hold blame against him, I didn't accuse him of anything, but just reiterated out how stressed and upset I was, because I loved him and seeing him in pain also hurt me. Lyn Never's script is great for this.
Definitely keep talk about Ukraine off the table. You can't rationalise someone out of a position they didn't rationalise themselves into. Your partner is acting irrationally, compelled by fear. Trying to reason with them or persuade them to look at it differently won't work, so stick to talking about this as a mental health issue and a symptom of larger problems.
If things don't improve, you may have to lay down some ultimatums, but you must be able to stick with them and follow through if things don't get better. Don't set a rule and let them break it. In the end, I had to tell my partner that if he didn't seek medical help in the next few days, I would leave him and I wouldn't come back, because I literally would not be able to cope with watching him harm himself any further and would myself be at a crisis point. I packed a bag to go. That was what finally persuaded him that I was serious and he really needed help. I hope your situation doesn't come to that.
(Also, I have to say this: I didn't think my partner was at the point of a full-blown mental health crisis either until he had a bad night that turned into him banging his head against a wall. Then I realised just how long I had been walking on eggshells around him, how the cycles of good days and bad days had been getting shorter and shorter. He had been in crisis, on the edge of a full blown panic attack near constantly, for a long time. But when it got worse, it happened very fast. Now, he's got a diagnosis, is on medication, and says himself that he's the happiest and calmest he's been for years.)
posted by fight or flight at 4:18 AM on March 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Thank you for your update.
Here's why I think it's not about Ukraine.
As I mentioned before, I'm a prepper. Like, full on, rootin tootin, shotgun-owning beans and canned goods in the basement, bugout bags, moderate a popular prepping group, bought masks and disinfectant back when Covid was an odd new disease in Wuhan prepper.
I'm not reacting to Ukraine like this, nor are the preppers I know. I checked supplies, browsed an old civil defense guidebook, and realized nukes are surprisingly survivable, but if not oh well. No adjustment to daily routine. (I'll also note that I'm very much in a hazard zone in the event of nuclear war.)
This doomscrolling, hostility, and behaving as if life is already over, but not actually making any sort of emergency plans (beyond killing the pets) is shocking to me.
This isn't about Ukraine.
posted by champers at 4:36 AM on March 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
Here's why I think it's not about Ukraine.
As I mentioned before, I'm a prepper. Like, full on, rootin tootin, shotgun-owning beans and canned goods in the basement, bugout bags, moderate a popular prepping group, bought masks and disinfectant back when Covid was an odd new disease in Wuhan prepper.
I'm not reacting to Ukraine like this, nor are the preppers I know. I checked supplies, browsed an old civil defense guidebook, and realized nukes are surprisingly survivable, but if not oh well. No adjustment to daily routine. (I'll also note that I'm very much in a hazard zone in the event of nuclear war.)
This doomscrolling, hostility, and behaving as if life is already over, but not actually making any sort of emergency plans (beyond killing the pets) is shocking to me.
This isn't about Ukraine.
posted by champers at 4:36 AM on March 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
For all those people thousands of miles away in the US proudly saying "This isn't at all scary, I'm not scared", just bear in mind that - while OP's spouse is obviously struggling with their mental health and this thread has lots of good advice to that end - things do feel different when you're significantly closer to the aggressor. I know there are long range missiles, I know the whole world could be engulfed, but people in Europe are dealing with an unhinged man actively waging war right on our doorstep in a way we've not experienced during our lifetimes and the situation may feel quite different to us than it does to you.
posted by penguin pie at 5:00 AM on March 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by penguin pie at 5:00 AM on March 1, 2022 [13 favorites]
OP, I can't add anything to the excellent reads on the situation that others have provided (for example: Frowner, champers, Lyn Never, and fight or flight), so I will just say that I hope that you have your own sources of support. This sounds incredibly draining. You need respite or you are not going to be able to be there for your spouse. (Rock 'em Sock 'em makes some good points and suggestions along this line.)
posted by virago at 5:54 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by virago at 5:54 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know if this'll help your spouse (or you), but my spouse and I were watching "Call the Midwife" a few weeks ago. There was a couple of episodes that took place during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In the show, the crisis evolved from a minor news article, to a full-time, glued to the radio obsession. Similarly, TV shows and movies that cover the Blitz evoke, for me, the same terrified, helpless feeling. It somehow helps me cope to think that others have been in similar, hopeless situations and survived (Many haven't, of course). Likewise, in some perverse way, reading about the 1961 Goldsboro B-52 incident, or about Stanislav Petrov gives me a sense of... not comfort exactly, but humanity.
posted by at at 6:36 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by at at 6:36 AM on March 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I wonder if part of what is getting at them is the lack of control over the situation, and maybe over life in general. Doomscrolling at least gives you the feeling of doing something, of somehow being involved in the situation. Do you think it might have any effect to say "let's do something about this instead of just sitting around - let's find out who's organizing to help refugees / pressure the government / help someone somewhere and go volunteer" or something along those lines? If nothing else, it gets them away from the internet.
posted by trig at 8:19 AM on March 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by trig at 8:19 AM on March 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
Have you tried agreeing with them? "Yes, there is a non-zero chance of us being nuked, let's make a plan if that happens." Look up how long you'd have to get a bomb shelter, and look up the nearest shelter - I just looked up that there are 258 nuclear bunkers in the UK. Pack a to-go food kit to take with you. It sounds like part of what is driving their anxiety is that you're denying it - with my partner, as I recently wrote in another thread, I've found providing some space/legitimation of his anxieties actually reduces them - perhaps the same will happen for your partner. I'm not saying totally affirm their fears, but don't totally dismiss them either - they certainly aren't alone in their concern of a nuclear attack.
posted by coffeecat at 8:51 AM on March 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 8:51 AM on March 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Response by poster:
This is one of the differences between my approach to life and my spouse's. I'm okay with uncertainty. I've lost a lot of people in my life and I've come to realise that the only thing I have control over is how I live the life I have left. My spouse, on the other hand, is someone who always wants to be in control of a situation, and in-the-know about every little fact of a scenario, and gets very anxious when they can't be.
I think that they'd react badly to prepping for disaster, because in their mind it would mean that I have been lying to them when I said I didn't think it was likely to happen (they view the world in a very black-and-white way). However, I do like the idea of talking to them about helping with a volunteer / relief effort of some sort (although nothing involving any kind of protest, because they associate protesting with getting into trouble, and that makes them anxious too).
posted by six sided sock at 9:44 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder if part of what is getting at them is the lack of control over the situation, and maybe over life in general. Doomscrolling at least gives you the feeling of doing something, of somehow being involved in the situation. Do you think it might have any effect to say "let's do something about this instead of just sitting around - let's find out who's organizing to help refugees / pressure the government / help someone somewhere and go volunteer" or something along those lines? If nothing else, it gets them away from the internet.
Have you tried agreeing with them? "Yes, there is a non-zero chance of us being nuked, let's make a plan if that happens." Look up how long you'd have to get a bomb shelter, and look up the nearest shelter - I just looked up that there are 258 nuclear bunkers in the UK. Pack a to-go food kit to take with you. It sounds like part of what is driving their anxiety is that you're denying it - with my partner, as I recently wrote in another thread, I've found providing some space/legitimation of his anxieties actually reduces them - perhaps the same will happen for your partner. I'm not saying totally affirm their fears, but don't totally dismiss them either - they certainly aren't alone in their concern of a nuclear attack.Just to address these two: the one thing I've not been doing is denying that there's a non-zero chance. I've been stating very clearly and deliberately that I don't believe that we're going to get nuked, and I'm pretty certain that it won't happen tonight (for example), but I'm perfectly happy to say that I don't know what's going to happen for sure — that I can't.
This is one of the differences between my approach to life and my spouse's. I'm okay with uncertainty. I've lost a lot of people in my life and I've come to realise that the only thing I have control over is how I live the life I have left. My spouse, on the other hand, is someone who always wants to be in control of a situation, and in-the-know about every little fact of a scenario, and gets very anxious when they can't be.
I think that they'd react badly to prepping for disaster, because in their mind it would mean that I have been lying to them when I said I didn't think it was likely to happen (they view the world in a very black-and-white way). However, I do like the idea of talking to them about helping with a volunteer / relief effort of some sort (although nothing involving any kind of protest, because they associate protesting with getting into trouble, and that makes them anxious too).
posted by six sided sock at 9:44 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
My spouse, on the other hand, is someone who always wants to be in control of a situation, and in-the-know about every little fact of a scenario, and gets very anxious when they can't be.
Not to threadsit, but this is a pretty common symptom of generalised anxiety disorder. My partner fixates on similar things. He used to spiral for an entire day or more if he lost something in the house like a book or a t-shirt. He also finds it very difficult to cope if he feels like he's being misunderstood or lied to.
I don't mean to harp on, I just want to underline that a lot of this isn't something that's going to be fixed once the situation with Ukraine clears up. Their brain chemistry is out of whack to some degree and it's causing them difficulties in their daily functioning, and they will need professional help to fix it. Once whatever is going to happen in Ukraine has happened, please don't wait for the next disaster to strike (what if the next thing is a personal loss? A family crisis? What if they need to be there for you and can't be?).
posted by fight or flight at 9:59 AM on March 1, 2022 [15 favorites]
Not to threadsit, but this is a pretty common symptom of generalised anxiety disorder. My partner fixates on similar things. He used to spiral for an entire day or more if he lost something in the house like a book or a t-shirt. He also finds it very difficult to cope if he feels like he's being misunderstood or lied to.
I don't mean to harp on, I just want to underline that a lot of this isn't something that's going to be fixed once the situation with Ukraine clears up. Their brain chemistry is out of whack to some degree and it's causing them difficulties in their daily functioning, and they will need professional help to fix it. Once whatever is going to happen in Ukraine has happened, please don't wait for the next disaster to strike (what if the next thing is a personal loss? A family crisis? What if they need to be there for you and can't be?).
posted by fight or flight at 9:59 AM on March 1, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think that they'd react badly to prepping for disaster, because in their mind it would mean that I have been lying to them when I said I didn't think it was likely to happen
Just to clarify, my suggestion wasn't to back down from your position, but just to say to them "Look, even though I still think that there is a very small chance of this happening, I'm happy to nail down a plan with you if it will make you feel better."
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just to clarify, my suggestion wasn't to back down from your position, but just to say to them "Look, even though I still think that there is a very small chance of this happening, I'm happy to nail down a plan with you if it will make you feel better."
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I want more than anything for my spouse to feel safe, and they don't right now. Any advice?
If a person in South Korea or Japan is struggling to get out of bed and wondering if they should euthanize their pets due to a sense of certainty about a nuclear weapons attack by North Korea, I think most people could understand that there's a real danger this person is responding to--they're not inventing a scenario from nothing. Likewise, your spouse's fears begin with real danger as someone living in Britain while Russia is attacking Ukraine. However, "This is definitely going to happen" is an anxious and/or depressed brain trying to gain a sense of control through certainty. If I can't have a sense of certainty that I'm safe, the next best thing is to have a sense of certainty that I know exactly the danger I'm in.
From what you've described, they feel unsafe because they're in an episode of... if we're not calling it a mental health crisis, we should at least call it acute increase in intensity of mental health symptoms. Following seriously scary world events with acute anxiety or depression is like walking on a balance beam with vertigo. There's the physical reality of the balance beam itself (a genuine challenge for most people), and there's the particular experience you're having of difficulty with your own balance and proprioception. The most urgent matter is your internal experience: it's not safe to attempt the balance beam until your vertigo is resolved. Similarly, I don't think there's a way for your spouse to feel safer with regard to Russia/Ukraine until they face the role their mental health symptoms are playing. To use another analogy, if I turn to my spouse and say, "It's freezing in here!" it's reasonable for my spouse to say, "The heat is on, and you're wearing three layers of sweaters. I think you're sick and have the chills." It may be uncomfortable for me to accept, because the external threat of "our stupid heater doesn't work" is easier to cope with than the internal threat of "I'm sick and that means I have to rest and maybe see a doctor, and that brings up all kinds of feelings of inadequacy and shame due to past shit." Likewise, it sounds like your spouse has some serious reasons they don't want to do therapy, and I don't have to know what those reasons are in order to empathize. Facing our own internal stuff can be terrifying and may feel impossible, to say nothing of trusting another human to help us with that process (especially if we've ever had a negative experience with therapy). I'm not saying your spouse has to go to therapy. I'm not even saying you have to persuade your spouse to see their fear as stemming from mental health symptoms. I think what I'm actually saying is, you might need to watch your spouse be really scared and not be able to help them feel safer unless/until they're willing to consider the mental health component here. You can only "turn up the heat" so far, you know? If someone has the flu, no amount of blaming the stupid old heater is going to make them feel comfortable. There is value in gently saying, "I love you so much, and I know you're in distress, and I don't believe you're accurately assessing what's going on." (But it's hard. It's painful. And the person in distress likely won't understand why you won't just turn the heat up.)
posted by theotherdurassister at 11:17 AM on March 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
If a person in South Korea or Japan is struggling to get out of bed and wondering if they should euthanize their pets due to a sense of certainty about a nuclear weapons attack by North Korea, I think most people could understand that there's a real danger this person is responding to--they're not inventing a scenario from nothing. Likewise, your spouse's fears begin with real danger as someone living in Britain while Russia is attacking Ukraine. However, "This is definitely going to happen" is an anxious and/or depressed brain trying to gain a sense of control through certainty. If I can't have a sense of certainty that I'm safe, the next best thing is to have a sense of certainty that I know exactly the danger I'm in.
From what you've described, they feel unsafe because they're in an episode of... if we're not calling it a mental health crisis, we should at least call it acute increase in intensity of mental health symptoms. Following seriously scary world events with acute anxiety or depression is like walking on a balance beam with vertigo. There's the physical reality of the balance beam itself (a genuine challenge for most people), and there's the particular experience you're having of difficulty with your own balance and proprioception. The most urgent matter is your internal experience: it's not safe to attempt the balance beam until your vertigo is resolved. Similarly, I don't think there's a way for your spouse to feel safer with regard to Russia/Ukraine until they face the role their mental health symptoms are playing. To use another analogy, if I turn to my spouse and say, "It's freezing in here!" it's reasonable for my spouse to say, "The heat is on, and you're wearing three layers of sweaters. I think you're sick and have the chills." It may be uncomfortable for me to accept, because the external threat of "our stupid heater doesn't work" is easier to cope with than the internal threat of "I'm sick and that means I have to rest and maybe see a doctor, and that brings up all kinds of feelings of inadequacy and shame due to past shit." Likewise, it sounds like your spouse has some serious reasons they don't want to do therapy, and I don't have to know what those reasons are in order to empathize. Facing our own internal stuff can be terrifying and may feel impossible, to say nothing of trusting another human to help us with that process (especially if we've ever had a negative experience with therapy). I'm not saying your spouse has to go to therapy. I'm not even saying you have to persuade your spouse to see their fear as stemming from mental health symptoms. I think what I'm actually saying is, you might need to watch your spouse be really scared and not be able to help them feel safer unless/until they're willing to consider the mental health component here. You can only "turn up the heat" so far, you know? If someone has the flu, no amount of blaming the stupid old heater is going to make them feel comfortable. There is value in gently saying, "I love you so much, and I know you're in distress, and I don't believe you're accurately assessing what's going on." (But it's hard. It's painful. And the person in distress likely won't understand why you won't just turn the heat up.)
posted by theotherdurassister at 11:17 AM on March 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
CW: pet death thoughts. No pet harm.
I'm not going to make any suggestions, but to tell you what happened to me when I was in a similar situation:
I'm in the USA, so our mental health treatment options may be different.
When I had a mental break, caused by a medication reaction, where I also thought about getting my pets euthanised, for their own good? I called the operator, whom I blabbed nonsense at for a while about how I am killing the planet, and need to be destroyed for the good of the universe. They in turn called the cops, who called an ambulance for me. I went to the ER, told them what was going on, and got checked in immediately for 4 days in the mental ward. (My pets were not hurt; I had enough thought to not do that.) Diagnosis: Acute Severe Generalized Anxiety.
It was exactly where I needed to be. They were able to stop the meds causing it, try something different that worked, and I was able to get both counseling and coping skills, so I can recognize when I'm spiring out of control again. Those are skills that have served me well; I used them this past winter, in fact, when I had another medication try to make my brain short circuit and go haywire.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:16 PM on March 1, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm not going to make any suggestions, but to tell you what happened to me when I was in a similar situation:
I'm in the USA, so our mental health treatment options may be different.
When I had a mental break, caused by a medication reaction, where I also thought about getting my pets euthanised, for their own good? I called the operator, whom I blabbed nonsense at for a while about how I am killing the planet, and need to be destroyed for the good of the universe. They in turn called the cops, who called an ambulance for me. I went to the ER, told them what was going on, and got checked in immediately for 4 days in the mental ward. (My pets were not hurt; I had enough thought to not do that.) Diagnosis: Acute Severe Generalized Anxiety.
It was exactly where I needed to be. They were able to stop the meds causing it, try something different that worked, and I was able to get both counseling and coping skills, so I can recognize when I'm spiring out of control again. Those are skills that have served me well; I used them this past winter, in fact, when I had another medication try to make my brain short circuit and go haywire.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:16 PM on March 1, 2022 [14 favorites]
Whether or not Spouse's fears are valid or not, the way Spouse is spiraling due to those fears is still an acute problem.
My intention is not to be dramatic here, but my husband has worked in law enforcement for a long time and has seen a lot, including quite a lot of false alarms... even so, murder-suicides happen more often than most people think. They are often not reported in the news at all, and if they are, the language is often very coded.
People typically commit murder-suicide for reasons far less bleak than what Spouse is contemplating. Spouse is talking about certain death amidst a violent world war. My husband could tell many, many, far too many stories of people who have killed their families simply because they lost their jobs, are having financial difficulties, or suspect infidelity. A history of depression (whether officially diagnosed or symptoms reported by friends and family) seems to be a big risk factor, as well as talk of feeling helpless or hopeless. Any thinking along the lines of "my spouse/kids/pets will be better off dead" is very alarming.
My entirely unprofessional, untrained, layperson's opinion is that this is a legitimate emergency, and there is reason for serious concern. OP, please tell a trusted friend or family member what is going on, just so they can check in on you regularly.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:55 AM on March 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
My intention is not to be dramatic here, but my husband has worked in law enforcement for a long time and has seen a lot, including quite a lot of false alarms... even so, murder-suicides happen more often than most people think. They are often not reported in the news at all, and if they are, the language is often very coded.
People typically commit murder-suicide for reasons far less bleak than what Spouse is contemplating. Spouse is talking about certain death amidst a violent world war. My husband could tell many, many, far too many stories of people who have killed their families simply because they lost their jobs, are having financial difficulties, or suspect infidelity. A history of depression (whether officially diagnosed or symptoms reported by friends and family) seems to be a big risk factor, as well as talk of feeling helpless or hopeless. Any thinking along the lines of "my spouse/kids/pets will be better off dead" is very alarming.
My entirely unprofessional, untrained, layperson's opinion is that this is a legitimate emergency, and there is reason for serious concern. OP, please tell a trusted friend or family member what is going on, just so they can check in on you regularly.
posted by keep it under cover at 3:55 AM on March 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
I want to echo some of WCityMike2's words:
> Most of the people in this thread are very alarmed at your partner's behavior. I think you should strongly factor that in: that outside observers, hearing you describe your spouse's behavior, are very concerned for your welfare and for your spouse's future potential actions.
To say that your spouse needs emergency mental health help is not a judgment on their character or their moral fortitude, nor a judgment on how lovable or worthy of respect they are.
If you seek emergency mental health help for your spouse, that will not be a betrayal on your part, nor is it disrespectful to them or an overreaction. You will not be harming them in any way. It is a way to care for them and act from a place of love and responsibility.
If your spouse was having shooting pains down their left arm but insisted that they're fine, it's nothing, so what if they're light headed and out of breath? --- you would still call an ambulance. You'd treat it like an emergency. That would be the only right thing for you to do, because neither you nor your spouse is qualified to diagnose the seriousness of the health event that is occurring, and you would know that they need to see someone who IS qualified, immediately.
Now your spouse is expressing extreme anxiety and obsessional thoughts about Ukraine, they're not able to function normally to the extent that they can't even get out of bed, and they are thinking and talking about euthanizing your pets as a result of their fears. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY. Please treat it like one. Whether they actually do it or whether they are truly a danger to anyone is not the point. You are not qualified to diagnose the severity of their mental health status. They need to see a doctor right away.
Again, let me remind you: this is not a judgment on your spouse's character or their moral fortitude, nor a judgment on how lovable or worthy of respect they are. If you seek emergency mental health help for your spouse, that will not be a betrayal on your part, nor is it disrespectful to them or an overreaction. You will not be harming them in any way. You will be acting as a responsible, caring spouse by taking them to see a doctor immediately.
posted by MiraK at 7:23 PM on March 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
> Most of the people in this thread are very alarmed at your partner's behavior. I think you should strongly factor that in: that outside observers, hearing you describe your spouse's behavior, are very concerned for your welfare and for your spouse's future potential actions.
To say that your spouse needs emergency mental health help is not a judgment on their character or their moral fortitude, nor a judgment on how lovable or worthy of respect they are.
If you seek emergency mental health help for your spouse, that will not be a betrayal on your part, nor is it disrespectful to them or an overreaction. You will not be harming them in any way. It is a way to care for them and act from a place of love and responsibility.
If your spouse was having shooting pains down their left arm but insisted that they're fine, it's nothing, so what if they're light headed and out of breath? --- you would still call an ambulance. You'd treat it like an emergency. That would be the only right thing for you to do, because neither you nor your spouse is qualified to diagnose the seriousness of the health event that is occurring, and you would know that they need to see someone who IS qualified, immediately.
Now your spouse is expressing extreme anxiety and obsessional thoughts about Ukraine, they're not able to function normally to the extent that they can't even get out of bed, and they are thinking and talking about euthanizing your pets as a result of their fears. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY. Please treat it like one. Whether they actually do it or whether they are truly a danger to anyone is not the point. You are not qualified to diagnose the severity of their mental health status. They need to see a doctor right away.
Again, let me remind you: this is not a judgment on your spouse's character or their moral fortitude, nor a judgment on how lovable or worthy of respect they are. If you seek emergency mental health help for your spouse, that will not be a betrayal on your part, nor is it disrespectful to them or an overreaction. You will not be harming them in any way. You will be acting as a responsible, caring spouse by taking them to see a doctor immediately.
posted by MiraK at 7:23 PM on March 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: A quick update for everyone: I was away for work today, and when I came home my spouse told me that they had really struggled during the day, that they'd barely eaten, and that their anxiety during the day was the worst they'd ever experienced. They agreed that they needed to seek professional help, but asked that we go to see someone together rather than them doing it on their own.
I'm obviously very worried about them, but this is a glimmer of light, and I'm hopeful that we might be moving in the right direction.
Thank you everyone for your advice.
posted by six sided sock at 2:57 PM on March 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm obviously very worried about them, but this is a glimmer of light, and I'm hopeful that we might be moving in the right direction.
Thank you everyone for your advice.
posted by six sided sock at 2:57 PM on March 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by praemunire at 1:42 PM on February 28, 2022 [81 favorites]