My spouse isn’t supporting me during a rough patch
February 4, 2022 6:30 PM Subscribe
I’m going through some acutely stressful situations right now and my partner isn’t being supportive. He is short tempered and snappy whenever I’m in a bad mood which leads to arguments that make everything worse.
For the past two months my job has been extremely stressful and it will continue to be so for the next couple of months or more. This is a very busy time of the year for my role typically, so it’s not the first time I’m going through an intense period at work but this time it’s compounded by some additional issues that have come up.
In addition to work, I’m also helping my family with some problems they’re having triggered by the pandemic, spanning from financial problems to housing. It’s been tough almost every single day and some days I’m barely holding it together.
I’ve communicated to my spouse that this is a tough time for me and I need his support, at least emotionally. He has just started a new job and im understanding of the fact that it will take up most of his mental and emotional bandwidth for a while. Im not making demands of him to shoulder more responsibilities at home, im still doing my part same as I was before.
But some nights im in a bad mood or sad or upset and he seems to be getting increasingly irritated seeing me like that. If he doesn’t ignore me, he asks me passive aggressively “what is wrong now”.
Last night I was in the middle of a texting conversation with someone who has been helping my parents and my spouse could see in my face that I looked worried. He asked me, almost sarcastically, “what’s wrong now” and I snapped and answered back “can you give me a moment? What do you think is wrong?!”.
I know I shouldn’t had taken it out on him but it was just a momentary slip which I apologized for. Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”. I kept pleading with him to stop and let it go, I didn’t want to argue I was just stressed in the moment. After a while he went completely quiet and ignored me in a very obvious way for the rest of the night. When I calmly asked him to talk about it he snapped back that now he doesn’t want to talk and left to go watch tv.
I’m extremely hurt and disappointed that he’s behaving this way during a time he knows is rough for me because I’ve been very supportive of him when he needed. I helped him a lot with his job search, even when I was very busy, and he’s practically admitted he got his new job because of all my efforts and help in prepping him (same industry).
Is it that big of an ask for a spouse to provide support for a brief period of time, even if it sometimes means they need to be the bigger person and deescalate a silly argument? Am I demanding too much here? We’re married just 3 years and together for 6, no kids. This is making me worry and question what will happen if we go through prolonged stressful times down the road with kids in the picture.
He’s got a low tolerance threshold for bad moods but it has been getting progressively worse. If I have any grievance about his behavior , even if I express it in a very calm and rational way, he gets extremely defensive and refuses to admit even a tiny bit of responsibility. He thinks I’m a dramatic person who exaggerates situations. I don’t think I am dramatic at all, I consider myself to be very rational but if something upsets me I don’t hide it and I’m vocal about it.
I’ve tried to talk to him calmly and it seems like this is the hill he wants to die on. He vehemently maintains he didn’t anything wrong and I was being irrational for snapping at him for no reason. I don’t know how to go from here, or who the eff to rely on right now.
I realize this isn’t a question per se but I’d be grateful to hear your thoughts and experiences with something similar.
For the past two months my job has been extremely stressful and it will continue to be so for the next couple of months or more. This is a very busy time of the year for my role typically, so it’s not the first time I’m going through an intense period at work but this time it’s compounded by some additional issues that have come up.
In addition to work, I’m also helping my family with some problems they’re having triggered by the pandemic, spanning from financial problems to housing. It’s been tough almost every single day and some days I’m barely holding it together.
I’ve communicated to my spouse that this is a tough time for me and I need his support, at least emotionally. He has just started a new job and im understanding of the fact that it will take up most of his mental and emotional bandwidth for a while. Im not making demands of him to shoulder more responsibilities at home, im still doing my part same as I was before.
But some nights im in a bad mood or sad or upset and he seems to be getting increasingly irritated seeing me like that. If he doesn’t ignore me, he asks me passive aggressively “what is wrong now”.
Last night I was in the middle of a texting conversation with someone who has been helping my parents and my spouse could see in my face that I looked worried. He asked me, almost sarcastically, “what’s wrong now” and I snapped and answered back “can you give me a moment? What do you think is wrong?!”.
I know I shouldn’t had taken it out on him but it was just a momentary slip which I apologized for. Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”. I kept pleading with him to stop and let it go, I didn’t want to argue I was just stressed in the moment. After a while he went completely quiet and ignored me in a very obvious way for the rest of the night. When I calmly asked him to talk about it he snapped back that now he doesn’t want to talk and left to go watch tv.
I’m extremely hurt and disappointed that he’s behaving this way during a time he knows is rough for me because I’ve been very supportive of him when he needed. I helped him a lot with his job search, even when I was very busy, and he’s practically admitted he got his new job because of all my efforts and help in prepping him (same industry).
Is it that big of an ask for a spouse to provide support for a brief period of time, even if it sometimes means they need to be the bigger person and deescalate a silly argument? Am I demanding too much here? We’re married just 3 years and together for 6, no kids. This is making me worry and question what will happen if we go through prolonged stressful times down the road with kids in the picture.
He’s got a low tolerance threshold for bad moods but it has been getting progressively worse. If I have any grievance about his behavior , even if I express it in a very calm and rational way, he gets extremely defensive and refuses to admit even a tiny bit of responsibility. He thinks I’m a dramatic person who exaggerates situations. I don’t think I am dramatic at all, I consider myself to be very rational but if something upsets me I don’t hide it and I’m vocal about it.
I’ve tried to talk to him calmly and it seems like this is the hill he wants to die on. He vehemently maintains he didn’t anything wrong and I was being irrational for snapping at him for no reason. I don’t know how to go from here, or who the eff to rely on right now.
I realize this isn’t a question per se but I’d be grateful to hear your thoughts and experiences with something similar.
Can you move in with a friend for a few days? You need to step out of that environment for a while.
If a friend’s spare room isn’t available, maybe a few days in a motel might help you.
I’m sorry you’re stressed at every angle…please remove yourself for a bit, if you can.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
If a friend’s spare room isn’t available, maybe a few days in a motel might help you.
I’m sorry you’re stressed at every angle…please remove yourself for a bit, if you can.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Are you getting any therapist support? I know we always say that here, but you need a person who has bandwidth to listen to you.
I know nothing about your relationship history so I'm not going to declare whether this is abuse. Your spouse can't or won't provide the support you need right now, and it suuucks and you have the right to be angry and disappointed. Whether you can get him to talk about it/get to a better place is a big question and you're in a crisis right now. Put your energy in getting help for yourself first. That will help you see what you might need to do in regards to him and you at some point.
Now if you continue to feel punished or shut out or get yelled at, if he can't be at least polite, then yeah, maybe separation for a while if you can, just to remove one immediate stressor. I don't know if that's an option. If tiptoing around him is a constant thing, maybe you need some space however you can get it.
posted by emjaybee at 7:09 PM on February 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
I know nothing about your relationship history so I'm not going to declare whether this is abuse. Your spouse can't or won't provide the support you need right now, and it suuucks and you have the right to be angry and disappointed. Whether you can get him to talk about it/get to a better place is a big question and you're in a crisis right now. Put your energy in getting help for yourself first. That will help you see what you might need to do in regards to him and you at some point.
Now if you continue to feel punished or shut out or get yelled at, if he can't be at least polite, then yeah, maybe separation for a while if you can, just to remove one immediate stressor. I don't know if that's an option. If tiptoing around him is a constant thing, maybe you need some space however you can get it.
posted by emjaybee at 7:09 PM on February 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
Two problems here, as I understand this- 1. you need emotional support and 2. the spouse is adding to the set of stress-generating problems.
For #1, since you are in the middle of a number of things that may take a while to resolve, I'd find that emotional support elsewhere. I'd ease off of the spouse and find someone else, a friend, an older person you might be able to talk to. Individual CBT therapy is a great option, if feasible.
For #2, joint counseling is that is an option and the spouse is willing. The latter may be unlikely if he doesn't even see the problem. I don't think you are at fault, over-reacting or have mood swings (but there could a slight gender bias here...). I also don't think this is emotional abuse, just communication stalemate and differences in understanding of a situation as everyone reacts based on their upbringing and what not, how important something is to someone etc.
The man needs to at least see where you are coming from, even if he may disagree with you. How do you two normally resolve problems and communication problems in particular? Also, is the apology coming from you because you really believe it was your fault or because it was easier to patch things up with the apology-band aid? (this does not help long term and keeps you cycling in the same loop..). These are some things to think about, but probably not while dealing with outside events that are causing the stress. I think it is fair to ask for him to not ask "what is wrong" if he is not prepared to go down that rabbit hole, at least till the stressors calm down a bit. I think it is also fair for you to step back (may be till the living room, not out of the house..) for a while.
It’s been tough almost every single day and some days I’m barely holding it together.
Its okay to barely hold it together. Its okay to barely manage to get through the day and operate at less than optimal productivity levels while taking basic care of your health. When life is overwhelming, one thing at a time.. one thought at a time.. one step at a time. I know you will get through this. I can tell from the questions you asked and the clarity you already have.
Its okay to also ask for spousal support because he is the spouse, not because you helped him x number of times, I don't think this kind of score keeping is helpful in relationships. Last but not the least, know that you can deal with any situation without a spouse or spousal support. Emotional support from a significant other is nice to have but one can't drown waiting for a lifeboat that doesn't exist.
posted by xm at 7:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
For #1, since you are in the middle of a number of things that may take a while to resolve, I'd find that emotional support elsewhere. I'd ease off of the spouse and find someone else, a friend, an older person you might be able to talk to. Individual CBT therapy is a great option, if feasible.
For #2, joint counseling is that is an option and the spouse is willing. The latter may be unlikely if he doesn't even see the problem. I don't think you are at fault, over-reacting or have mood swings (but there could a slight gender bias here...). I also don't think this is emotional abuse, just communication stalemate and differences in understanding of a situation as everyone reacts based on their upbringing and what not, how important something is to someone etc.
The man needs to at least see where you are coming from, even if he may disagree with you. How do you two normally resolve problems and communication problems in particular? Also, is the apology coming from you because you really believe it was your fault or because it was easier to patch things up with the apology-band aid? (this does not help long term and keeps you cycling in the same loop..). These are some things to think about, but probably not while dealing with outside events that are causing the stress. I think it is fair to ask for him to not ask "what is wrong" if he is not prepared to go down that rabbit hole, at least till the stressors calm down a bit. I think it is also fair for you to step back (may be till the living room, not out of the house..) for a while.
It’s been tough almost every single day and some days I’m barely holding it together.
Its okay to barely hold it together. Its okay to barely manage to get through the day and operate at less than optimal productivity levels while taking basic care of your health. When life is overwhelming, one thing at a time.. one thought at a time.. one step at a time. I know you will get through this. I can tell from the questions you asked and the clarity you already have.
Its okay to also ask for spousal support because he is the spouse, not because you helped him x number of times, I don't think this kind of score keeping is helpful in relationships. Last but not the least, know that you can deal with any situation without a spouse or spousal support. Emotional support from a significant other is nice to have but one can't drown waiting for a lifeboat that doesn't exist.
posted by xm at 7:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
This isn't fair.
I don't doubt that he is stressed by his new job. And that you are stressed by your extra busy job and family problems. But he is acting like only his stress is valid and important (you should be catering to him, soothing him, fixing his feelings), while you are not allowed to express your stress, and he gas-lights you about it. "Mood swings?" Really?!!?
The tirade and refusal to back down is toxic. He is showing you that *you* and your situation don't matter. In his mind, your role is to support him. And he is feeling stressed, and are to suppress your feelings to center his.
Start by leaving the situation for a bit (definitely emotionally, maybe physically). You guys are certainly not helping each other right now.
But I would think about very carefully about this situation, and what it is telling you about his idea of your role in managing his feelings.
Adult relationships take work and have lots of back-and-forth in terms of reciprocal support. But each partner needs to be doing their own emotional work, even if they are also looking to their partner for kindness, empathy, and understanding. If he won't admit his part in what just happened (at the very least!), he isn't doing his share of the work.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:20 PM on February 4, 2022 [18 favorites]
I don't doubt that he is stressed by his new job. And that you are stressed by your extra busy job and family problems. But he is acting like only his stress is valid and important (you should be catering to him, soothing him, fixing his feelings), while you are not allowed to express your stress, and he gas-lights you about it. "Mood swings?" Really?!!?
The tirade and refusal to back down is toxic. He is showing you that *you* and your situation don't matter. In his mind, your role is to support him. And he is feeling stressed, and are to suppress your feelings to center his.
Start by leaving the situation for a bit (definitely emotionally, maybe physically). You guys are certainly not helping each other right now.
But I would think about very carefully about this situation, and what it is telling you about his idea of your role in managing his feelings.
Adult relationships take work and have lots of back-and-forth in terms of reciprocal support. But each partner needs to be doing their own emotional work, even if they are also looking to their partner for kindness, empathy, and understanding. If he won't admit his part in what just happened (at the very least!), he isn't doing his share of the work.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:20 PM on February 4, 2022 [18 favorites]
For the past two months my job has been extremely stressful and it will continue to be so for the next couple of months or more.
Is it that big of an ask for a spouse to provide support for a brief period of time
Your spouse is certainly acting immature, no doubt, but if I'm to give him the benefit of the doubt here, I wonder if you're not downplaying the degree of stress you've been bringing into your daily lives (especially if you're often barely holding it together). Two months (with an indeterminate about of months to come) is not most people's definition of a brief period of time. That, compounded with the fact he may be very well stressed with his new job - well, I can understand why things might have deteriorated.
He vehemently maintains he didn’t anything wrong and I was being irrational for snapping at him for no reason. I don’t know how to go from here
Again, his language here - calling you irrational - sucks, I'm sorry. It sounds like you're both stuck in a loop where you each want to be right, and neither of you want to cede any ground. Instead, would it be possible for him to listen to you explain how you've been feeling lately and how he's contributing to your stress, and would it be possible for you to listen to how he's been feeling lately, and how your stress is impacting him? Or, could you brainstorm together strategies to reduce stress at home? Because the main problem seems to be you're both understandably stressed.
In short, I agree your spouse is behaving badly here and there's no excuse for it, but if he's generally been loving and kind these last six years I'd try to find out what's behind this recent behavior.
posted by coffeecat at 7:22 PM on February 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
Is it that big of an ask for a spouse to provide support for a brief period of time
Your spouse is certainly acting immature, no doubt, but if I'm to give him the benefit of the doubt here, I wonder if you're not downplaying the degree of stress you've been bringing into your daily lives (especially if you're often barely holding it together). Two months (with an indeterminate about of months to come) is not most people's definition of a brief period of time. That, compounded with the fact he may be very well stressed with his new job - well, I can understand why things might have deteriorated.
He vehemently maintains he didn’t anything wrong and I was being irrational for snapping at him for no reason. I don’t know how to go from here
Again, his language here - calling you irrational - sucks, I'm sorry. It sounds like you're both stuck in a loop where you each want to be right, and neither of you want to cede any ground. Instead, would it be possible for him to listen to you explain how you've been feeling lately and how he's contributing to your stress, and would it be possible for you to listen to how he's been feeling lately, and how your stress is impacting him? Or, could you brainstorm together strategies to reduce stress at home? Because the main problem seems to be you're both understandably stressed.
In short, I agree your spouse is behaving badly here and there's no excuse for it, but if he's generally been loving and kind these last six years I'd try to find out what's behind this recent behavior.
posted by coffeecat at 7:22 PM on February 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
He asked me, almost sarcastically, “what’s wrong now” and I snapped and answered back “can you give me a moment? What do you think is wrong?!”.
I know I shouldn’t had taken it out on him but it was just a momentary slip which I apologized for. Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”. I kept pleading with him to stop and let it go, I didn’t want to argue I was just stressed in the moment. After a while he went completely quiet and ignored me in a very obvious way for the rest of the night. When I calmly asked him to talk about it he snapped back that now he doesn’t want to talk and left to go watch tv.
Fuck that noise. If that were a repeating theme with my partner, I'd leave. Because this part
Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”
is straight-up DARVO, and abuse almost always escalates.
posted by flabdablet at 8:02 PM on February 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
I know I shouldn’t had taken it out on him but it was just a momentary slip which I apologized for. Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”. I kept pleading with him to stop and let it go, I didn’t want to argue I was just stressed in the moment. After a while he went completely quiet and ignored me in a very obvious way for the rest of the night. When I calmly asked him to talk about it he snapped back that now he doesn’t want to talk and left to go watch tv.
Fuck that noise. If that were a repeating theme with my partner, I'd leave. Because this part
Nevertheless, he went into a tirade about how he’s sick of me taking it out on him whenever I’m upset. He wouldn’t stop and kept going and complaining about 30 minutes with increasing intensity about my “mood swings”
is straight-up DARVO, and abuse almost always escalates.
posted by flabdablet at 8:02 PM on February 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
Wish there was something positive I could add here. Tax season is a strain. Definitely look to changing your living arrangements before this gets physical. There will be lots of remorse expressed yada yada yada - goes with the territory. You are not at fault here, support is what you need, not a tantrum throwing adolescent.
posted by ptm at 8:26 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ptm at 8:26 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
he does sound like a pill when in a bad mood and under stress. though I don't know what ought to happen, in your opinion, when both of you are in bad moods and are under stress at the same times, as you both seem to be. Regardless, you say you communicated to him your wish for temporarily heightened emotional support; you don't say that he agreed to provide it. or that you and he share a definition of it. if he is the kind of person to say Yes, meaning "Yes, I heard your request" knowing full well that you understand him to be saying Yes, meaning " Yes, I will do as you ask"....don't devote yourself to more and more and more communicating with him. just don't waste your time.
other than that,
I don’t think I am dramatic at all, I consider myself to be very rational but if something upsets me I don’t hide it and I’m vocal about it.
being dramatic has nothing at all to do with being irrational. choosing to be being vocal and loud about your upsets instead of choosing to be quiet and subdued is most people's working definition of "dramatic". it is just a style, not a moral choice. both styles work perfectly well as long as the people perceiving them correctly understand what you mean by them. it is not unusual for one person to call "exaggeration" what another person calls "communication." if they are not being pricks for kicks, what they mean is that your feelings were already made crystal clear before the extended Communication really got going. but that is always a big If.
anyway, "dramatic" comes across as a value judgment because your spouse apparently hates the attribute; but it isn't one, or shouldn't be one. militant drama-hatred is also a style of identity many people find very hard to put up with.
he is also at least as dramatic as you, in terms of esteeming his own emotional reactions very highly and refusing to modify them or their expression so long as he feels he is right. so in respect of hypocrisy, at least, he has not got a leg to stand on for criticism.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:35 PM on February 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
other than that,
I don’t think I am dramatic at all, I consider myself to be very rational but if something upsets me I don’t hide it and I’m vocal about it.
being dramatic has nothing at all to do with being irrational. choosing to be being vocal and loud about your upsets instead of choosing to be quiet and subdued is most people's working definition of "dramatic". it is just a style, not a moral choice. both styles work perfectly well as long as the people perceiving them correctly understand what you mean by them. it is not unusual for one person to call "exaggeration" what another person calls "communication." if they are not being pricks for kicks, what they mean is that your feelings were already made crystal clear before the extended Communication really got going. but that is always a big If.
anyway, "dramatic" comes across as a value judgment because your spouse apparently hates the attribute; but it isn't one, or shouldn't be one. militant drama-hatred is also a style of identity many people find very hard to put up with.
he is also at least as dramatic as you, in terms of esteeming his own emotional reactions very highly and refusing to modify them or their expression so long as he feels he is right. so in respect of hypocrisy, at least, he has not got a leg to stand on for criticism.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:35 PM on February 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
It sounds like you're both under stress and handling it poorly. I'm sure a lot of people will harshly judge your spouse and paint him to be abusive. He may be, but I don't think there's quite enough information here to assume that yet, so I'm going to take a gentler approach. Not everyone is in a place mentally to receive negativity or provide emotional support when their cup is already full (or at baseline). It sounds like your spouse's cup is full and he just can't provide what you need. Sometimes in a relationship you need to get support elsewhere. Perhaps counseling would be good, for now.
That's not to downplay the seriousness of the problem, because you both need to be able to communicate calmly and handle difficult moments more productively if the relationship is going to last. But outside counseling is a place to start. If he recognizes that you're both facing a problem with stress and communication, he will be similarly willing to seek out outside help to manage his own stress, and maybe even consider counseling to help improve these more challenging parts of your relationship. But that's work and you both need to commit to it.
In the meantime, perhaps consider implementing a check-in (and this will go both ways) before either of you vents. Ask how your spouse is doing. Ask if this is a good time for you to vent, get support, etc. Again, this goes both ways and he should do the same to you. It may sound silly but it's something I've had luck with. I get drained easily sometimes and I can't always provide emotional support to others, and therefore get short with them if asked to provide it when I'm simply not there. A check-in can help a lot. Good luck.
posted by Amy93 at 9:23 PM on February 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
That's not to downplay the seriousness of the problem, because you both need to be able to communicate calmly and handle difficult moments more productively if the relationship is going to last. But outside counseling is a place to start. If he recognizes that you're both facing a problem with stress and communication, he will be similarly willing to seek out outside help to manage his own stress, and maybe even consider counseling to help improve these more challenging parts of your relationship. But that's work and you both need to commit to it.
In the meantime, perhaps consider implementing a check-in (and this will go both ways) before either of you vents. Ask how your spouse is doing. Ask if this is a good time for you to vent, get support, etc. Again, this goes both ways and he should do the same to you. It may sound silly but it's something I've had luck with. I get drained easily sometimes and I can't always provide emotional support to others, and therefore get short with them if asked to provide it when I'm simply not there. A check-in can help a lot. Good luck.
posted by Amy93 at 9:23 PM on February 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
You didn't snap at him, he snapped at you. You were quietly minding your own business when he decided to pick a fight because you weren't looking happy enough.
Of course he probaby wouldn't frame his question as an act of aggression, he would claim it was an innocent inquiry. I have only your account to go on, so no way to judge this objectively, but I imagine he expressed it in a tone of exasperation that makes it hard to read the question as genuine concern/curiosty. Even if you did misread him here, if he had been genuinely concerned/curious and not spoiling for a fight, he should have given you that margin of error and focussed on clearing up that misunderstanding. The way to show that you are, indeed, genuinely concerned for someone else is to ask follow-up questions, and not, say, go into a 30 minute tirade about your own hurt feelings in that situation.
It's an unfortunate situation because you're probably both at the end of your rope right now, with too much on your plates, and that means you both need to be cut a lot of slack for the moment, but also, that you both probably are running out of slack to cut the other.
Some things to consider:
You shouldn't judge each other too much at a low point ; it's really an extra amount of bad luck that you're both at a low point at the same time. That things are so hard right now might not say much about either of you. But you have proven that you can be supportive of your partner when you have more spoons. So the question is has he proven himself too? Can he cut you some slack and be the bigger person when he's not so stressed himself?
You write that he's always had low threshold for bad moods, so to me it sounds like he's quite unproven as a back-up in times of crisis even under the best of circumstances. If he's like that when there's not much extra external stress, and it starts getting worse, once the stress increases, it will be unmanageable once there's a kid. Because kids mean that you will probably both be a the end of your rope at the same time rather more frequently.
Your concerns sound entirely valid to me.
posted by sohalt at 11:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Of course he probaby wouldn't frame his question as an act of aggression, he would claim it was an innocent inquiry. I have only your account to go on, so no way to judge this objectively, but I imagine he expressed it in a tone of exasperation that makes it hard to read the question as genuine concern/curiosty. Even if you did misread him here, if he had been genuinely concerned/curious and not spoiling for a fight, he should have given you that margin of error and focussed on clearing up that misunderstanding. The way to show that you are, indeed, genuinely concerned for someone else is to ask follow-up questions, and not, say, go into a 30 minute tirade about your own hurt feelings in that situation.
It's an unfortunate situation because you're probably both at the end of your rope right now, with too much on your plates, and that means you both need to be cut a lot of slack for the moment, but also, that you both probably are running out of slack to cut the other.
Some things to consider:
You shouldn't judge each other too much at a low point ; it's really an extra amount of bad luck that you're both at a low point at the same time. That things are so hard right now might not say much about either of you. But you have proven that you can be supportive of your partner when you have more spoons. So the question is has he proven himself too? Can he cut you some slack and be the bigger person when he's not so stressed himself?
You write that he's always had low threshold for bad moods, so to me it sounds like he's quite unproven as a back-up in times of crisis even under the best of circumstances. If he's like that when there's not much extra external stress, and it starts getting worse, once the stress increases, it will be unmanageable once there's a kid. Because kids mean that you will probably both be a the end of your rope at the same time rather more frequently.
Your concerns sound entirely valid to me.
posted by sohalt at 11:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Listen to this, because it's the truth: "You write that he's always had low threshold for bad moods, so to me it sounds like he's quite unproven as a back-up in times of crisis even under the best of circumstances. If he's like that when there's not much extra external stress, and it starts getting worse, once the stress increases, it will be unmanageable once there's a kid. Because kids mean that you will probably both be a the end of your rope at the same time rather more frequently."
Someone with a "low threshold for bad moods" has never learned to deal with challenges. With kids, there are plenty of challenges every single day. How would you feel if he pouted at you for 3 days straight while you had to take care of a newborn and yourself? Because that's how living with someone who isn't supportive looks like.
I know we're judging your whole relationship based on just your short description, so in your place, I'd think of previous instances of any disagreements, issues, arguments. How was your spouse dealing with those? Do you see a clear progression from bad to worse? Or is this recent incident very uncharacteristic of him? If the latter, then maybe have an honest talk and you both try to see the situation from both perspectives. If the former, well... I'm sorry. You've had a good run, but better get out before it gets worse (or there are kids in the mix).
posted by gakiko at 1:45 AM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Someone with a "low threshold for bad moods" has never learned to deal with challenges. With kids, there are plenty of challenges every single day. How would you feel if he pouted at you for 3 days straight while you had to take care of a newborn and yourself? Because that's how living with someone who isn't supportive looks like.
I know we're judging your whole relationship based on just your short description, so in your place, I'd think of previous instances of any disagreements, issues, arguments. How was your spouse dealing with those? Do you see a clear progression from bad to worse? Or is this recent incident very uncharacteristic of him? If the latter, then maybe have an honest talk and you both try to see the situation from both perspectives. If the former, well... I'm sorry. You've had a good run, but better get out before it gets worse (or there are kids in the mix).
posted by gakiko at 1:45 AM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
I completely agree with sohalt's take. The behavior you describe sounds selfish, resentful, and vindictive/punishing. He could have apologized for his own part in the interaction (for saying "what's wrong *now*") after you apologized for the mistake you made by snapping at him. But he didn't and is instead punishing you. It sounds like this has happened before when you expressed your feelings and needs (which he labels as "being dramatic"). I think you already know his behavior isn't acceptable and I hope these responses validate it for you. I also hope you are able to find a trusted advisor or counselor to help you think through your needs, where this relationship is going, and what your next steps should be. I would prepare for more defensiveness and punishment if you make any changes he doesn't like. That seems to be his MO.
posted by shw at 4:49 AM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by shw at 4:49 AM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
and my spouse could see in my face that I looked worried. He asked me, almost sarcastically, “what’s wrong now”
HE started with you. You weren't doing anything. He didn't like your facial expression, which is ridiculous. You snapped at him because he was harassing you when you were not bothering him. YOU are not the problem here.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:48 AM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
HE started with you. You weren't doing anything. He didn't like your facial expression, which is ridiculous. You snapped at him because he was harassing you when you were not bothering him. YOU are not the problem here.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:48 AM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
He didn't like your facial expression, which is ridiculous.
Yeah, it sure seems to me like you've become his Bitch Eating Crackers. And if I were in that position, I'd be leaving him to stew in his own misery, and taking my crackers with me as well. Life's too short.
posted by flabdablet at 6:15 AM on February 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it sure seems to me like you've become his Bitch Eating Crackers. And if I were in that position, I'd be leaving him to stew in his own misery, and taking my crackers with me as well. Life's too short.
posted by flabdablet at 6:15 AM on February 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Your spouse isn't supporting you through a rough patch and you are not supporting your spouse through his rough patch. Both of you are making each other's rough patches significantly rougher, enough that you are now both failing to adult at times.
You could go into the question of how much support either one of you normally provides and how much support is reasonable and if he's being abusive or not but that is a derail. You probably do need to consider stuff like if he is ever actually supportive, or if what you call supportive is simply when he does not lash out, and if you are the potentially making his life unmanageable by being upset around him a lot, but those are questions for when neither of you are going through a rough patch. You're upset so your judgement is off. Rough patches are not a good time for sorting out if your marriage is worth salvaging for the times when it is functioning at peak. What you need to do now is make an agreement with your spouse that neither of you will do anything to make the rough patches worse.
You do this with a time out. Basically, don't share space if you are upset. Split the house so one of you take the bedroom or the kitchen and the other one takes the living room when either of you are upset, and both of you treat the other as beloved and fragile. Right now you both need space. Of course you also both need support but the well is dry. You can't supply him with affirmative affection and he can't supply you with assistance with emotional regulation.
A really important part of any relationship is boundaries and that means minding your own so you are not a burden on others and defending your own so they don't become a burden on you. For whatever reason your boundaries have broken down so he is initiating contact "What's the matter now?" in ways that lead you into conflict. Chances are the meta message in his "What's the matter now?" was "Please reassure me that you can control your distress so it doesn't magnify mine" and was also intended to indicate "I care about you but I need to not be worried about your mood" and the response he got was "Fuck off and die." Of course a request to "Please control your distress so it doesn't magnify mine" often is abusive, as when your emotions are being minimized or discounted or denied. But that makes it no less essential that the two of you both find ways to control your moods so it doesn't magnify each other's anger and unhappiness. I'm not saying he was right. I am saying that the two of you need to seriously draw back and make sure neither of you inflicts bad moods on each other, snaps at each other, vents or asks for help or attention unless they are already certain it is a good time and will provide a positive interaction for both of you.
So back off, back off, back off. "I'm going to hide in the bedroom while I do some texting." "I am sorry I can't be with you and listen. I want to but I am exhausted." "I left you a treat because I love you, but I need to be alone." He's got the right idea about watching TV to prevent bad interactions and stabilize his mood. Try to think about it as him withdrawing so he won't snap at you. You can't be close right now. Neither of you has it in you and you are both furious and hurt.
It's not up to him to decide if he was bad to you and wrong and escalated things. It's up to you. And if that is what he is doing, it's time for you to set your own boundary and back off. You don't stop someone from being bad to you and escalating things by being bad back and escalating things more. Pursuing it will prolong the argument and back him into a corner of self-justification. The only thing you guys needed less than having this argument was to continue it all night and make it worse. Right now separate self regulation is the only way to go. It's the best thing for the marriage because you avoid doing more harm to your bond and you get to a vantage point where you have better perspective on what you want and what you are both capable of going forward.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:45 AM on February 5, 2022 [37 favorites]
You could go into the question of how much support either one of you normally provides and how much support is reasonable and if he's being abusive or not but that is a derail. You probably do need to consider stuff like if he is ever actually supportive, or if what you call supportive is simply when he does not lash out, and if you are the potentially making his life unmanageable by being upset around him a lot, but those are questions for when neither of you are going through a rough patch. You're upset so your judgement is off. Rough patches are not a good time for sorting out if your marriage is worth salvaging for the times when it is functioning at peak. What you need to do now is make an agreement with your spouse that neither of you will do anything to make the rough patches worse.
You do this with a time out. Basically, don't share space if you are upset. Split the house so one of you take the bedroom or the kitchen and the other one takes the living room when either of you are upset, and both of you treat the other as beloved and fragile. Right now you both need space. Of course you also both need support but the well is dry. You can't supply him with affirmative affection and he can't supply you with assistance with emotional regulation.
A really important part of any relationship is boundaries and that means minding your own so you are not a burden on others and defending your own so they don't become a burden on you. For whatever reason your boundaries have broken down so he is initiating contact "What's the matter now?" in ways that lead you into conflict. Chances are the meta message in his "What's the matter now?" was "Please reassure me that you can control your distress so it doesn't magnify mine" and was also intended to indicate "I care about you but I need to not be worried about your mood" and the response he got was "Fuck off and die." Of course a request to "Please control your distress so it doesn't magnify mine" often is abusive, as when your emotions are being minimized or discounted or denied. But that makes it no less essential that the two of you both find ways to control your moods so it doesn't magnify each other's anger and unhappiness. I'm not saying he was right. I am saying that the two of you need to seriously draw back and make sure neither of you inflicts bad moods on each other, snaps at each other, vents or asks for help or attention unless they are already certain it is a good time and will provide a positive interaction for both of you.
So back off, back off, back off. "I'm going to hide in the bedroom while I do some texting." "I am sorry I can't be with you and listen. I want to but I am exhausted." "I left you a treat because I love you, but I need to be alone." He's got the right idea about watching TV to prevent bad interactions and stabilize his mood. Try to think about it as him withdrawing so he won't snap at you. You can't be close right now. Neither of you has it in you and you are both furious and hurt.
It's not up to him to decide if he was bad to you and wrong and escalated things. It's up to you. And if that is what he is doing, it's time for you to set your own boundary and back off. You don't stop someone from being bad to you and escalating things by being bad back and escalating things more. Pursuing it will prolong the argument and back him into a corner of self-justification. The only thing you guys needed less than having this argument was to continue it all night and make it worse. Right now separate self regulation is the only way to go. It's the best thing for the marriage because you avoid doing more harm to your bond and you get to a vantage point where you have better perspective on what you want and what you are both capable of going forward.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:45 AM on February 5, 2022 [37 favorites]
Jane the Brown is right, but there also comes a point where walking on eggshells to avoid bruising the tender feels of somebody who consistently refuses to extend you the same courtesy becomes akin to keeping somebody else warm by setting yourself on fire.
The only person who can judge whether that point has been reached, though, is you.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 AM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
The only person who can judge whether that point has been reached, though, is you.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 AM on February 5, 2022 [11 favorites]
Some men think that women should always be happy and supportive, and that any deviation from that expression is a slight at them. I think it comes from a self-centeredness and a lack of considering the lived experience of other people. Everything is experienced as if they are the central character. They behave as if they are both the cause of and the main recipient of everything that happens in their lives, including your moods: You're not upset, you're upset AT them; you're not stressed, you're stressed BECAUSE OF them; you're not giving yourself space, you're IGNORING them. And if that's the case, they feel blamed, but they didn't do anything, so they get defensive and preemptively angry at what they assume is your upset at them, when in fact they aren't part of your emotional picture at that moment at all.
It's worse if you're a woman who is typically emotionally resilient and who returns to "normal" quickly, because they've grown to count on that constant support and source of positivity, so when it's gone or less frequent they take it as you withholding something that they are entitled to. I have experienced this a LOT, and it sucks. It is not my job to create all of the happiness and light in our home but at times it has felt like it is.
There may also be another element of lack of emotional maturity at play in terms of his own feelings and ability to express them. There are men who interpret all of their own negative emotions into as anger, because they don't know how to feel or express anything else. So he sees that you are struggling, it makes him feel bad in a way he can't explain and doesn't know what to do with, so he gets irritated (maybe even with himself but doesn't realize it) and picks a fight with you to give himself something concrete and familiar to react to (anger, arguing, blaming).
You are allowed to feel your own emotions, and you are not obligated to bury them completely and pretend like nothing is wrong just because he is present. That doesn't mean it's okay to stomp around the house throwing temper tantrums, or not address your feelings in a productive way eventually - like if it is really impacting your life and ability to contribute to your household and relationship, it's your responsibility to get the therapy, support, etc that you need. But you can ask for space. You can be sad in the moment. You can feel frazzled and scared and stressed and have less patience sometimes. HE SHOULD NOT BE PICKING FIGHTS WITH YOU JUST BECAUSE OF AN EXPRESSION ON YOUR FACE. Whether your response was right or wrong, it doesn't really matter, but it is only human when someone is constantly trying to pick fights with you to once in a while slip up and respond.
Personally I disagree with a poster above that "2 months is a long time to be in a rough patch" - uh, not in the perspective of a lifelong relationship, at all. My partner and I just struggled through a full YEAR of him trying to get out of an incredibly toxic job. It sucked, and it affected his moods and our relationship a lot. But we got through it (and now it's my turn to be in a bad place and for him to extend the extra room and grace and forgiveness to me that I gave to him last year). Since he got a new job I've been telling people "I feel like I have my partner back" - it was that dark around here for a while, especially with the pandemic on top of everything. But I didn't pick fights and make it worse, I tried to make things as easy as possible and gave him more room to be grumpy and swallowed my pride and deescalated when feelings got redirected at each other instead of the situation.
I am worried for you that you are with someone who is emotionally immature and has a lot of unexamined subconscious ideas of how you are allowed to exist in the context of your relationship, and that deviation from those expectations is considered a slight toward him.
It's not impossible that he could grow and mature out of this behavior pattern, but he has to be willing to do so. My partner now is significantly better at this stuff than he was 8 years ago. But I did have to do a lot of very slow, gentle coaching and modeling of behavior. Honestly, the times when I snapped were sometimes our biggest breakthroughs because I did it so rarely it really seemed to get through to him. Mostly though it took a long time and a lot of swallowing my pride and although I'm happy we made it, it chipped away at my self esteem and self confidence and I wish we had gone to therapy instead of working through it alone.
With children on the table, it seems like you don't have that kind of time and can't afford not knowing if he's going to be a supportive co-parent and partner with all the stress that raising kids can bring. I would suggest that you both need individual therapy to start, agree to at least a détente where you give each other space without picking fights about it, and graduate to couples therapy if you want to stay together and on a path to adding children to the mix.
posted by misskaz at 7:06 AM on February 5, 2022 [26 favorites]
It's worse if you're a woman who is typically emotionally resilient and who returns to "normal" quickly, because they've grown to count on that constant support and source of positivity, so when it's gone or less frequent they take it as you withholding something that they are entitled to. I have experienced this a LOT, and it sucks. It is not my job to create all of the happiness and light in our home but at times it has felt like it is.
There may also be another element of lack of emotional maturity at play in terms of his own feelings and ability to express them. There are men who interpret all of their own negative emotions into as anger, because they don't know how to feel or express anything else. So he sees that you are struggling, it makes him feel bad in a way he can't explain and doesn't know what to do with, so he gets irritated (maybe even with himself but doesn't realize it) and picks a fight with you to give himself something concrete and familiar to react to (anger, arguing, blaming).
You are allowed to feel your own emotions, and you are not obligated to bury them completely and pretend like nothing is wrong just because he is present. That doesn't mean it's okay to stomp around the house throwing temper tantrums, or not address your feelings in a productive way eventually - like if it is really impacting your life and ability to contribute to your household and relationship, it's your responsibility to get the therapy, support, etc that you need. But you can ask for space. You can be sad in the moment. You can feel frazzled and scared and stressed and have less patience sometimes. HE SHOULD NOT BE PICKING FIGHTS WITH YOU JUST BECAUSE OF AN EXPRESSION ON YOUR FACE. Whether your response was right or wrong, it doesn't really matter, but it is only human when someone is constantly trying to pick fights with you to once in a while slip up and respond.
Personally I disagree with a poster above that "2 months is a long time to be in a rough patch" - uh, not in the perspective of a lifelong relationship, at all. My partner and I just struggled through a full YEAR of him trying to get out of an incredibly toxic job. It sucked, and it affected his moods and our relationship a lot. But we got through it (and now it's my turn to be in a bad place and for him to extend the extra room and grace and forgiveness to me that I gave to him last year). Since he got a new job I've been telling people "I feel like I have my partner back" - it was that dark around here for a while, especially with the pandemic on top of everything. But I didn't pick fights and make it worse, I tried to make things as easy as possible and gave him more room to be grumpy and swallowed my pride and deescalated when feelings got redirected at each other instead of the situation.
I am worried for you that you are with someone who is emotionally immature and has a lot of unexamined subconscious ideas of how you are allowed to exist in the context of your relationship, and that deviation from those expectations is considered a slight toward him.
It's not impossible that he could grow and mature out of this behavior pattern, but he has to be willing to do so. My partner now is significantly better at this stuff than he was 8 years ago. But I did have to do a lot of very slow, gentle coaching and modeling of behavior. Honestly, the times when I snapped were sometimes our biggest breakthroughs because I did it so rarely it really seemed to get through to him. Mostly though it took a long time and a lot of swallowing my pride and although I'm happy we made it, it chipped away at my self esteem and self confidence and I wish we had gone to therapy instead of working through it alone.
With children on the table, it seems like you don't have that kind of time and can't afford not knowing if he's going to be a supportive co-parent and partner with all the stress that raising kids can bring. I would suggest that you both need individual therapy to start, agree to at least a détente where you give each other space without picking fights about it, and graduate to couples therapy if you want to stay together and on a path to adding children to the mix.
posted by misskaz at 7:06 AM on February 5, 2022 [26 favorites]
You are overburdened on every front, aware of it, asking for emotional support. You may not be available to him for emotional labor in ways he's accustomed to. He's not getting attention. He's defensive, irritable, and sometimes mean. Honestly, it sounds like he's incredibly resentful that he isn't getting attention, and unable to provide even minimal support when you are in a very difficult place. He's bullying you into still doing tons of stuff at home when you really need a break. There is a possibility he's depressed; irritability is a symptom, and that's important to rule out.
Despite how busy you are, clear time for a therapist. If your company has an Employee Assistance Program, that's a good start. They can help you with the differential diagnosis between your husband being a jerk and/or depressed.
In a marriage, I want someone who can do more than minimal emotional support, I'd want somebody who would pitch in, pick up slack to ease my burden, and real, solid emotional support. Listen less to his words and assess his behavior. I'll bet he started out being more supportive, but has revealed his selfishness over time. Whatever the trend of his behavior is, that will continue. Over time, he will provide less and less emotional presence and support, and demand more and more from you. Right now, you're so stressed, you probably don't have the energy for big decisions, but you can assess as things proceed, talk to a therapist, and really deal with it when work eases up.
Meanwhile, you ask him for crumbs, and he resentfully doesn't deliver. So ask for more, not less. He should be helping you a lot more, ask for that. Ask him to get the groceries, pick up the takeout, do the laundry, because you have your hands full. Ask him to be a good partner; his response will be revealing. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 7:41 AM on February 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Despite how busy you are, clear time for a therapist. If your company has an Employee Assistance Program, that's a good start. They can help you with the differential diagnosis between your husband being a jerk and/or depressed.
In a marriage, I want someone who can do more than minimal emotional support, I'd want somebody who would pitch in, pick up slack to ease my burden, and real, solid emotional support. Listen less to his words and assess his behavior. I'll bet he started out being more supportive, but has revealed his selfishness over time. Whatever the trend of his behavior is, that will continue. Over time, he will provide less and less emotional presence and support, and demand more and more from you. Right now, you're so stressed, you probably don't have the energy for big decisions, but you can assess as things proceed, talk to a therapist, and really deal with it when work eases up.
Meanwhile, you ask him for crumbs, and he resentfully doesn't deliver. So ask for more, not less. He should be helping you a lot more, ask for that. Ask him to get the groceries, pick up the takeout, do the laundry, because you have your hands full. Ask him to be a good partner; his response will be revealing. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 7:41 AM on February 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
On the work end, any professional associations that might be having a monthly online gathering to recognize the tough season and blow off steam from time to time? Plenty of other good advice upthread-this can sometimes broaden support.
posted by childofTethys at 8:14 AM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by childofTethys at 8:14 AM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
The thing that strikes me here about the situations you're describing is you're not even asking for actual support in them; you seem like you would be satisfied with a simple lack of antagonism. (That could be wrong, it's just that not once have you described anything you want that I'd classify as actual support. You even go out of your way to talk about how you're still fulfilling all the same household responsibilities.) You're just there and not happy and he is striking out at you just existing that way and if you don't enjoy being treated like that and have the gall to push back boy oh boy is he gonna punish you. Benign neglect, where he just isn't paying attention to your mood at all, would be kinder than what he's been doing.
It reminds me a lot of patterns described in Why Does He Do That: Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, and it might be worthwhile for you to read that book and see if it speaks to you. (It can be bought as an ebook, but given the topic's purpose it's easy to find the freely available versions like the one I'm linking.) I'm not saying your partner is abusive, but it does sound a bunch like the way misskaz is describing, where he can't handle you not centering him and he's deploying these punishing techniques to try and get back into his comfort zone, and escalating them when they're not working.
I do think withdrawing yourself as others are suggesting would be...instructive. If he can handle that, then maybe it really is just two bad times colliding until you both reached beehive pelted with a rock mode, and when things are better they can be patched over. He can't start in on the expression on your face if he's not there to see it. But if it really is about him not being able to handle being centered, I'm not sure he'll be able to cope with that strategy either, so do be prepared to face push back.
posted by foxfirefey at 8:28 AM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
It reminds me a lot of patterns described in Why Does He Do That: Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, and it might be worthwhile for you to read that book and see if it speaks to you. (It can be bought as an ebook, but given the topic's purpose it's easy to find the freely available versions like the one I'm linking.) I'm not saying your partner is abusive, but it does sound a bunch like the way misskaz is describing, where he can't handle you not centering him and he's deploying these punishing techniques to try and get back into his comfort zone, and escalating them when they're not working.
I do think withdrawing yourself as others are suggesting would be...instructive. If he can handle that, then maybe it really is just two bad times colliding until you both reached beehive pelted with a rock mode, and when things are better they can be patched over. He can't start in on the expression on your face if he's not there to see it. But if it really is about him not being able to handle being centered, I'm not sure he'll be able to cope with that strategy either, so do be prepared to face push back.
posted by foxfirefey at 8:28 AM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Picking on someone because they're having a rough patch, or even a bad day, is just plain mean. I don't usually jump immediately on the DTMFA train, but having experienced that treatment in my former marriage, I don't tolerate it in relationships any more and I don't think you should tolerate it either.
There are worse things than being alone, and one of them is being kicked while you're down by the person who is supposed to love you most in the world.
posted by Sublimity at 8:56 AM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
There are worse things than being alone, and one of them is being kicked while you're down by the person who is supposed to love you most in the world.
posted by Sublimity at 8:56 AM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Your spouse is desperate for your happy smile. "What's wrong now?!" he asks. Because, he misses you terribly, the you when nothing is wrong. He may not even be remotely aware that this is his problem. From his view, your constant worrying problems are a problem, as he depends on your happiness to feel right.
Selfish on his part? Perhaps. But it just too likely he can't see what's happening. While he's expressing annoyance, he is also, at least a little, sympathetic.
posted by Goofyy at 10:54 AM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Selfish on his part? Perhaps. But it just too likely he can't see what's happening. While he's expressing annoyance, he is also, at least a little, sympathetic.
posted by Goofyy at 10:54 AM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
A thirty minute rant for daring to sound unhappy in his presence?
Yes, that's extremely selfish. I am sorry. You don't deserve such treatment. If this behavior is not an outlier I'd look for outside support and individual counseling. I would not go to couples therapy as it can be counterproductive if the partner uses your vulnerability to attack you.
posted by M. at 11:48 AM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yes, that's extremely selfish. I am sorry. You don't deserve such treatment. If this behavior is not an outlier I'd look for outside support and individual counseling. I would not go to couples therapy as it can be counterproductive if the partner uses your vulnerability to attack you.
posted by M. at 11:48 AM on February 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
His behavior is unacceptable, long-standing, and getting worse. This is emotional abuse and you deserve better.
I was incredibly unsurprised to see your partner's pronoun given as 'he'. This sounds like entitled male behavior from someone who isn't used to bothering with emotional labor, and who has the capacity of a tantrumming toddler to be a real partner.
No kids? Hallelujah! It will be that much easier to dump this MF already and either find someone who will be a real partner to you, or navigate life on your own again without pulling his dead weight along behind you.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 12:48 PM on February 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was incredibly unsurprised to see your partner's pronoun given as 'he'. This sounds like entitled male behavior from someone who isn't used to bothering with emotional labor, and who has the capacity of a tantrumming toddler to be a real partner.
No kids? Hallelujah! It will be that much easier to dump this MF already and either find someone who will be a real partner to you, or navigate life on your own again without pulling his dead weight along behind you.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 12:48 PM on February 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
You're getting bifurcated answers here, in part because your post seems to hint that you've not been kind yourself, but also only discusses your husband's contribution to the conflict.
So I read a bit of your post history, which to me indicate that you seem to carry a lot of internal anger or angst that you can't seem to resolve. And you have strong expectations of how others should treat you.
I realize that there are three sides here -- yours, his, and the truth. But I don't think his behavior as described merits "this is abuse, DTMFA". He's for sure not holding up to your expectations of him, which may be reasonable ones. But that does not rise to intentional active abuse.
Where to go from here? First, you both need to recalibrate what you can and do expect from each other. I am personally of the mind that I don't feel like I can ever expect or demand support. If it's given voluntarily -- that's wonderful. If you can rely on it always being offered -- you're in a good spot. If someone responds when I ask -- great. If someone consistently steps away from my requests, I might re-evaluate their role to me. But it's not something to be expected, ever. Even from a parent. Even from a spouse. Others may feel differently, but I thought I'd offer that perspective. You, like every adult, need to figure out how you can get the support you need, and from whom, on your own. If you can separate your needs from your expectations, that's a start.
Second, you both need to decide whether you want to offer that to each other. Because right now, it seems like you have both decided that you don't want to offer support. That's legit. It might mean separation, or divorce, if that's the permanent solution. But it's always a choice. The first step here needs to be what Jane the Brown described -- mutual cooling off and self-care. Once you're calm and he's calm, you can re-approach the issue of whether you want to offer support to each other, and how that might work.
posted by Dashy at 1:41 PM on February 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
So I read a bit of your post history, which to me indicate that you seem to carry a lot of internal anger or angst that you can't seem to resolve. And you have strong expectations of how others should treat you.
I realize that there are three sides here -- yours, his, and the truth. But I don't think his behavior as described merits "this is abuse, DTMFA". He's for sure not holding up to your expectations of him, which may be reasonable ones. But that does not rise to intentional active abuse.
Where to go from here? First, you both need to recalibrate what you can and do expect from each other. I am personally of the mind that I don't feel like I can ever expect or demand support. If it's given voluntarily -- that's wonderful. If you can rely on it always being offered -- you're in a good spot. If someone responds when I ask -- great. If someone consistently steps away from my requests, I might re-evaluate their role to me. But it's not something to be expected, ever. Even from a parent. Even from a spouse. Others may feel differently, but I thought I'd offer that perspective. You, like every adult, need to figure out how you can get the support you need, and from whom, on your own. If you can separate your needs from your expectations, that's a start.
Second, you both need to decide whether you want to offer that to each other. Because right now, it seems like you have both decided that you don't want to offer support. That's legit. It might mean separation, or divorce, if that's the permanent solution. But it's always a choice. The first step here needs to be what Jane the Brown described -- mutual cooling off and self-care. Once you're calm and he's calm, you can re-approach the issue of whether you want to offer support to each other, and how that might work.
posted by Dashy at 1:41 PM on February 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
You're getting bifurcated answers here, in part because your post seems to hint that you've not been kind yourself, but also only discusses your husband's contribution to the conflict.
I think the bifurcation is in large part because some people clearly see the pattern of emotional abuse, because either they've been there done that, or they've watched a loved one go through it. And some people...don't get it.
I see no evidence of the poster not being kind. In fact, she seems to judge herself for a "momentary slip" amounting to failing to display absolute calm grace in the face of abuse.
So I read a bit of your post history
Good idea. I did so too. I see someone who may be allowing abuse in her marriage because of the dynamics she is familiar with from her abusive childhood.
But (support is) not something to be expected, ever. Even from a spouse.
Most people's wedding vows specifically mention how the married couple should treat each other, almost always mentioning words like love, honor, cherish, respect. The way the poster's spouse is treating her is not loving, not respectful, does not honor her needs and existence as a separate person.
I'm worried that the poster will get sucked into taking responsibility for how her husband treats her. An abused person thinking they could stop being abused if only they were better in X way is sadly common. Doubly so for females in relationships with males.
It's not always true that both parties in a couple are equally responsible for the relationship going wrong, and that assumption can further victimize the person being abused.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:58 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think the bifurcation is in large part because some people clearly see the pattern of emotional abuse, because either they've been there done that, or they've watched a loved one go through it. And some people...don't get it.
I see no evidence of the poster not being kind. In fact, she seems to judge herself for a "momentary slip" amounting to failing to display absolute calm grace in the face of abuse.
So I read a bit of your post history
Good idea. I did so too. I see someone who may be allowing abuse in her marriage because of the dynamics she is familiar with from her abusive childhood.
But (support is) not something to be expected, ever. Even from a spouse.
Most people's wedding vows specifically mention how the married couple should treat each other, almost always mentioning words like love, honor, cherish, respect. The way the poster's spouse is treating her is not loving, not respectful, does not honor her needs and existence as a separate person.
I'm worried that the poster will get sucked into taking responsibility for how her husband treats her. An abused person thinking they could stop being abused if only they were better in X way is sadly common. Doubly so for females in relationships with males.
It's not always true that both parties in a couple are equally responsible for the relationship going wrong, and that assumption can further victimize the person being abused.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:58 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm answering as someone who was raised in a narcissistic environment since your post history mentions that. I will be doing a lot of assuming and projecting here. And it might be all wrong - but in case my instincts are accurate, here you go.
When you are raised in that type of environment, you can end up as an adult that struggles to be happy, because you are deprived of so many things that are part of normal development (and are frequently exposed to situations that move your brain chemistry in a negative direction).
No, we do not owe a spouse our happiness. But realistically, it's draining as hell to be married to someone that is usually unhappy. So if the default is unhappy (depressed, anxious, touchy, critical, irritable, distant would apply here), then extra stress making us more unhappy is not going to be well received. Your spouse might be entitled and selfish, or he might be trying his best and weary because nothing is ever enough to get more than a couple of days of happiness with you. (I don't agree with men taking on their wife's happiness as if it's their responsibility but it's a very common phenomenon in cis-het relationships where they do personalize our unhappiness as a failure on their part.)
It's understandable to want the support of your spouse, especially since you might have a desire for receiving the sort of perfect empathy and mirroring that was so lacking in childhood, that you're probably deeply hungry for.
Grown adults can't be relied on for that. Especially when they are preoccupied with their own stuff. (Even if they try, the baggage from childhood will keep it from landing as the wonderfully kind effort it is. So the reaction they get is that they are still wrong and then we are lonely because nobody gets us/ nobody is really there for us.)
If this post resonates for you, I would suggest trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. If you're generally unhappy, worried, depressed, not bringing energy and light to the relationship, having minor crises all the time, then it's possible he is worn out. And then he would not have the energy to bring in extra support when life becomes genuinely more stressful.
Like it or not we are all responsible for our own behavior and happiness, including efforts to get our needs met. We may cling to childish wishes but we are grown ups now and grown ups are responsible for their own happiness. If you are routinely not happy then you should do something about it. Whether that is therapy, more exercise, a new hobby, or whatever else might help. For me, part of that process has involved medication. Years and years of therapy and coping skills, and it did help some, but the right combo of meds has meant I start at a 7/10 instead of 2/10 so it's easier to get to 10. I was reluctant to go that route but now I wish I did it sooner.
Depression and anxiety are treatable, and therapy is a great intervention for both, but sometimes we don't have time for it. Medication can make the immediate situation more bearable so we have the bandwidth to find a therapist, put new coping skills in place, etc. As the child of a narcissist, I finally had to accept that medication would be part of my treatment plan and it does make it easier to not be unhappy so often.
Anyway, hope this helps and if you relate to all of this feel free to MeMail me to talk more about it. His outburst sounds like it might be the ravings of a person who has dealt with their partner being touchy a lot, and started out giving his best effort but doesn't have much stamina anymore. I could be wrong though!
posted by crunchy potato at 3:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
When you are raised in that type of environment, you can end up as an adult that struggles to be happy, because you are deprived of so many things that are part of normal development (and are frequently exposed to situations that move your brain chemistry in a negative direction).
No, we do not owe a spouse our happiness. But realistically, it's draining as hell to be married to someone that is usually unhappy. So if the default is unhappy (depressed, anxious, touchy, critical, irritable, distant would apply here), then extra stress making us more unhappy is not going to be well received. Your spouse might be entitled and selfish, or he might be trying his best and weary because nothing is ever enough to get more than a couple of days of happiness with you. (I don't agree with men taking on their wife's happiness as if it's their responsibility but it's a very common phenomenon in cis-het relationships where they do personalize our unhappiness as a failure on their part.)
It's understandable to want the support of your spouse, especially since you might have a desire for receiving the sort of perfect empathy and mirroring that was so lacking in childhood, that you're probably deeply hungry for.
Grown adults can't be relied on for that. Especially when they are preoccupied with their own stuff. (Even if they try, the baggage from childhood will keep it from landing as the wonderfully kind effort it is. So the reaction they get is that they are still wrong and then we are lonely because nobody gets us/ nobody is really there for us.)
If this post resonates for you, I would suggest trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. If you're generally unhappy, worried, depressed, not bringing energy and light to the relationship, having minor crises all the time, then it's possible he is worn out. And then he would not have the energy to bring in extra support when life becomes genuinely more stressful.
Like it or not we are all responsible for our own behavior and happiness, including efforts to get our needs met. We may cling to childish wishes but we are grown ups now and grown ups are responsible for their own happiness. If you are routinely not happy then you should do something about it. Whether that is therapy, more exercise, a new hobby, or whatever else might help. For me, part of that process has involved medication. Years and years of therapy and coping skills, and it did help some, but the right combo of meds has meant I start at a 7/10 instead of 2/10 so it's easier to get to 10. I was reluctant to go that route but now I wish I did it sooner.
Depression and anxiety are treatable, and therapy is a great intervention for both, but sometimes we don't have time for it. Medication can make the immediate situation more bearable so we have the bandwidth to find a therapist, put new coping skills in place, etc. As the child of a narcissist, I finally had to accept that medication would be part of my treatment plan and it does make it easier to not be unhappy so often.
Anyway, hope this helps and if you relate to all of this feel free to MeMail me to talk more about it. His outburst sounds like it might be the ravings of a person who has dealt with their partner being touchy a lot, and started out giving his best effort but doesn't have much stamina anymore. I could be wrong though!
posted by crunchy potato at 3:09 PM on February 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
On the part of your partner, in my most generous light I can say that maybe he doesn't have the self awareness to recognize the difference between "I feel bad when my partner feels bad" and "my partner is deliberately making me feel bad" which might be be at the root of his behavior. It is very entitled to be mad at you for not being happy in a moment.
The most concerning part is that after a cool down there seems to have been no introspection or willingness to admit that he may have played a part and placed the blame all on you.
If i were in your position (and I have been, before), I would remove myself from the situation, self soothe myself as best as i could, try not to focus on anything but making myself feel better, and return to the conversation when I felt solid enough to keep a clear head and advocate as fairly as I could for myself without feeling hurt or confused.
I don't know how helpful the "emotional abuse" brush is without some specifics, but it is damaging and unfair to put so much pressure and punishment on you for not feeling the way he seemed to want you to in the moment. And it's a very worrying sign that he's not engaging with you in good faith about it now that you are both calmer.
I would be a broken record about that until he gets it, and make a plan about how you will cope and what you will do if he never does.
posted by pazazygeek at 5:15 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
The most concerning part is that after a cool down there seems to have been no introspection or willingness to admit that he may have played a part and placed the blame all on you.
If i were in your position (and I have been, before), I would remove myself from the situation, self soothe myself as best as i could, try not to focus on anything but making myself feel better, and return to the conversation when I felt solid enough to keep a clear head and advocate as fairly as I could for myself without feeling hurt or confused.
I don't know how helpful the "emotional abuse" brush is without some specifics, but it is damaging and unfair to put so much pressure and punishment on you for not feeling the way he seemed to want you to in the moment. And it's a very worrying sign that he's not engaging with you in good faith about it now that you are both calmer.
I would be a broken record about that until he gets it, and make a plan about how you will cope and what you will do if he never does.
posted by pazazygeek at 5:15 PM on February 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, you ask him for crumbs, and he resentfully doesn't deliver. So ask for more, not less. He should be helping you a lot more, ask for that. Ask him to get the groceries, pick up the takeout, do the laundry, because you have your hands full. Ask him to be a good partner; his response will be revealing. Good luck.
This sounds right to me. I would add that he needs a go-to phrase to use when he feels your stress and is about pound sand. His own best ideas suck, and if he is not your nemesis he should want to do this. Something like "Honey tell me what I can DO to be helpful right now." Train the pathway until it becomes natural.
Asking more...
a) This person needs to get out of his own head anyway.
b) Gives him the opportunity to BE supportive without having to sound supportive, which he may not be capable of. The actions may bring about better noises later in the day.
go-to phrase...
I've been that guy - unable to say anything generous b/c I was stressed or depressed. I would always be shocked that the first words that came to me would be unhelpful. So I learned not use them. I learned to swap in the go-to. "I can listen but my words are no good. Can we hug for a bit and then lets figure out or remind ourselves what I can do to take some weight off."
Then I would make dinner and that act would make me feel more open and invested and I could then start to talk.
Of course, your man could simply be incapable or unwilling or an asshole. In that case I would tell a friend, or my mom, etc. that friend/relative needs to find another situation that works and let the man fend for himself. Whether he's a miserable prick or hapless doesn't matter.
Best wishes for a good resolution, Riverside.
posted by drowsy at 7:57 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
This sounds right to me. I would add that he needs a go-to phrase to use when he feels your stress and is about pound sand. His own best ideas suck, and if he is not your nemesis he should want to do this. Something like "Honey tell me what I can DO to be helpful right now." Train the pathway until it becomes natural.
Asking more...
a) This person needs to get out of his own head anyway.
b) Gives him the opportunity to BE supportive without having to sound supportive, which he may not be capable of. The actions may bring about better noises later in the day.
go-to phrase...
I've been that guy - unable to say anything generous b/c I was stressed or depressed. I would always be shocked that the first words that came to me would be unhelpful. So I learned not use them. I learned to swap in the go-to. "I can listen but my words are no good. Can we hug for a bit and then lets figure out or remind ourselves what I can do to take some weight off."
Then I would make dinner and that act would make me feel more open and invested and I could then start to talk.
Of course, your man could simply be incapable or unwilling or an asshole. In that case I would tell a friend, or my mom, etc. that friend/relative needs to find another situation that works and let the man fend for himself. Whether he's a miserable prick or hapless doesn't matter.
Best wishes for a good resolution, Riverside.
posted by drowsy at 7:57 PM on February 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sounds like he’s given what he is able to give. You’ll need to seek support elsewhere.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:42 PM on February 5, 2022
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:42 PM on February 5, 2022
There’s a relationship behavior called “Finding the bad guy.” You are both engaging in this behavior. The bad guy is always the other person. If you keep wanting him to be the bad guy, and he keeps wanting you to be the bad guy, you have no way forward but hostility and resentment.
Your communication sounds messed up. You’re not going to resolve this in a time of stress. I’d suggest individual therapy for both of you, and couples counseling.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
Your communication sounds messed up. You’re not going to resolve this in a time of stress. I’d suggest individual therapy for both of you, and couples counseling.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:43 PM on February 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
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