Toxic family is causing problems in my relationship
January 7, 2022 3:24 AM Subscribe
My boyfriend is concerned about how toxic my family is. He hasn't mentioned the details to his family and as we are both reaching "marriagable" age and aren't interested in messing around and wasting time, it is leading to a potential decision having to be made about whether to continue the relationship or not.
I feel I can't talk to my family about this, I would appreciate some thoughts and opinions on here.
My boyfriend comes from a more middle class, financially and emotionally stable background. It wasn't always like that for him as I think his Dad is volatile and has been somewhat abusive in the past but things have stabilised for him. He is very attached to his Mum who has been unconditionally loving and a counterpoint to his Dad his whole life.
My family is a toxic mess. My Dad was physically, emotionally and financially abusive to me and my siblings; he is mentally unwell and has obviously been deeply traumatised by his own impoverished background. My parents are both immigrants who have very little education. My Mum is not abusive but due to her weak position has had to submit to my Dad and is now bound up with his toxicity - unfortunately they are one package now, even though she is an innocent victim of it all.
As is common, the trauma has been gifted down to us - two of my brothers are non functioning due to the trauma; they live at home, can't hold down jobs, have no friends, don't socialise, have never dated. My sisters are functioning better and have moved out of home, but we all are deeply traumatised and continue to struggle.
This is also because it's not just a legacy, the situation is ongoing. Only last year my Dad lost a lot of money (not his money) on spread betting. And I mean A LOT. He was begging us all for money just before this happened, promising us he could make a lot. We were teetering on the edge of giving it to him, but luckily did not. It might not make sense but this kind of abuse from such a young age begins to feel like normality, it has taken us reaching our 30s to realise just how bad it all has been and to deeply begin to understand the effect it has had on us.
I would say he has lost 500k in the space of 15 years to this form of gambling and impulsive spending. He has ruined our credit scores and taken loans out in our names. My parents will be totally financially dependent on us in old age as they have nothing, it is likely my brothers also will be financially dependent on us.
There is so much more to say on the abuse suffered, but suffice to say it continues to be deeply painful and damaging. I have, however set boundaries. I barely speak to my parents on the phone and only go home to visit once every 4/5 months.
However, my boyfriend feels great discomfort and would prefer I cut them out entirely - something I am unable to do. From his perspective, they are awful people and he says they emotionally manipulate me and how my mental health continues to be damaged by them. He said if we ever had children he ideally wouldn't want them to see my Dad.
He was also quite honest with me as he said he is quite ashamed to tell his family the details of my family as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family. He has witnessed how every visit home and nearly every phonecall from my parents I find distressing as it brings up old traumas and fear for their futures.
He has asked me to go away and think about what *I* want for the future in terms of a relationship with my family - how often I would want to see them, how much I will be contributing to financially support my parents in old age, how involved they would be if I had a child. Based on this information, he will be speaking to his family about how to move forward.
Right now, short of me letting him know I'll cut them out entirely I don't see this ending well. This is all adding to my trauma. I agree with my boyfriend that I need to set strong, rigid boundaries - but I think he doesn't understand that I feel guilt and love still towards my family and can't let them go in the way he would wish. Maybe he is right, I don't even know anymore.
Again, the description above contains a mere snapshot of the situation. Words cannot describe the level of emotional pain I have experienced and continue to experience. But, I have come on here to ask for your thoughts and opinions as I feel like I have limited avenues to turn and need some kind of reality check; this would be much appreciated.
My boyfriend comes from a more middle class, financially and emotionally stable background. It wasn't always like that for him as I think his Dad is volatile and has been somewhat abusive in the past but things have stabilised for him. He is very attached to his Mum who has been unconditionally loving and a counterpoint to his Dad his whole life.
My family is a toxic mess. My Dad was physically, emotionally and financially abusive to me and my siblings; he is mentally unwell and has obviously been deeply traumatised by his own impoverished background. My parents are both immigrants who have very little education. My Mum is not abusive but due to her weak position has had to submit to my Dad and is now bound up with his toxicity - unfortunately they are one package now, even though she is an innocent victim of it all.
As is common, the trauma has been gifted down to us - two of my brothers are non functioning due to the trauma; they live at home, can't hold down jobs, have no friends, don't socialise, have never dated. My sisters are functioning better and have moved out of home, but we all are deeply traumatised and continue to struggle.
This is also because it's not just a legacy, the situation is ongoing. Only last year my Dad lost a lot of money (not his money) on spread betting. And I mean A LOT. He was begging us all for money just before this happened, promising us he could make a lot. We were teetering on the edge of giving it to him, but luckily did not. It might not make sense but this kind of abuse from such a young age begins to feel like normality, it has taken us reaching our 30s to realise just how bad it all has been and to deeply begin to understand the effect it has had on us.
I would say he has lost 500k in the space of 15 years to this form of gambling and impulsive spending. He has ruined our credit scores and taken loans out in our names. My parents will be totally financially dependent on us in old age as they have nothing, it is likely my brothers also will be financially dependent on us.
There is so much more to say on the abuse suffered, but suffice to say it continues to be deeply painful and damaging. I have, however set boundaries. I barely speak to my parents on the phone and only go home to visit once every 4/5 months.
However, my boyfriend feels great discomfort and would prefer I cut them out entirely - something I am unable to do. From his perspective, they are awful people and he says they emotionally manipulate me and how my mental health continues to be damaged by them. He said if we ever had children he ideally wouldn't want them to see my Dad.
He was also quite honest with me as he said he is quite ashamed to tell his family the details of my family as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family. He has witnessed how every visit home and nearly every phonecall from my parents I find distressing as it brings up old traumas and fear for their futures.
He has asked me to go away and think about what *I* want for the future in terms of a relationship with my family - how often I would want to see them, how much I will be contributing to financially support my parents in old age, how involved they would be if I had a child. Based on this information, he will be speaking to his family about how to move forward.
Right now, short of me letting him know I'll cut them out entirely I don't see this ending well. This is all adding to my trauma. I agree with my boyfriend that I need to set strong, rigid boundaries - but I think he doesn't understand that I feel guilt and love still towards my family and can't let them go in the way he would wish. Maybe he is right, I don't even know anymore.
Again, the description above contains a mere snapshot of the situation. Words cannot describe the level of emotional pain I have experienced and continue to experience. But, I have come on here to ask for your thoughts and opinions as I feel like I have limited avenues to turn and need some kind of reality check; this would be much appreciated.
Response by poster: Thanks warriorqueen. Sorry I forgot to add to my post that I am financially independent from my parents now, actually I've been too broke to give them money anyway but yeah. The question is how much will I be financially supporting them in their old age.
posted by Sunflower88 at 4:02 AM on January 7, 2022
posted by Sunflower88 at 4:02 AM on January 7, 2022
Ultimately, this is your decision and yours alone. Your boyfriend is right, you need to think about what you want regardless of everybody else's needs or wants, societies expectations, cultural expectations and so forth. What do you want? (this includes stuff like if you even want to get married ever. You don't have to!)
Some people do successfully cut out parents, extract themselves from the damage of destroyed credit histories, refuse to support siblings, and figure out how to navigate all that trauma emotionally. Many people have family members who they care for emotionally that they simply do not talk to, take care of, give a dime to or visit ever.
Some people do successfully stay in contact with said people and get by on stringent boundaries and do continue contact while carefully weighing options and do well, some try this and find out it is unsustainable for a variety of reasons and then chose a different path.
Some people ignore or continue to live in old family patterns even if they know they are not good. This could be pretty determinantal to a person, or just something they get by with.
Some of this is going to deal with your values- how you would feel about yourself if you didn't talk to them, how you would feel if you just walked away, do you think you are capable of handling the day to day boundary setting that comes with dealing with a toxic family, and the support you have from your boyfriend.
Personally:
I am pro cut off family. I did it (though now I have some limited contact with parts of it though I have zero contact with my father), and it was probably the best decision I ever made in my life. I got limited push back from people about the value of family, what it meant, these idealistic expectations of possible support and stuff, that I should have forgiveness or grace or something something. Ultimately, that is not for me, and it is very clear my family would never and could never provide anything to me as they were all drowning in the toxicity as well. I am far freer in that my day to day life has nothing to do with my family of origin. Where I travel, who my child sees, where my money goes. My successes are my own and I get to keep them. My day to day life is about my family of choice is doing our thing. Ultimately, my family of origin does not deserve my attention or time and they don't get it.
Also I did lots and lots of therapy.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:04 AM on January 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
Some people do successfully cut out parents, extract themselves from the damage of destroyed credit histories, refuse to support siblings, and figure out how to navigate all that trauma emotionally. Many people have family members who they care for emotionally that they simply do not talk to, take care of, give a dime to or visit ever.
Some people do successfully stay in contact with said people and get by on stringent boundaries and do continue contact while carefully weighing options and do well, some try this and find out it is unsustainable for a variety of reasons and then chose a different path.
Some people ignore or continue to live in old family patterns even if they know they are not good. This could be pretty determinantal to a person, or just something they get by with.
Some of this is going to deal with your values- how you would feel about yourself if you didn't talk to them, how you would feel if you just walked away, do you think you are capable of handling the day to day boundary setting that comes with dealing with a toxic family, and the support you have from your boyfriend.
Personally:
I am pro cut off family. I did it (though now I have some limited contact with parts of it though I have zero contact with my father), and it was probably the best decision I ever made in my life. I got limited push back from people about the value of family, what it meant, these idealistic expectations of possible support and stuff, that I should have forgiveness or grace or something something. Ultimately, that is not for me, and it is very clear my family would never and could never provide anything to me as they were all drowning in the toxicity as well. I am far freer in that my day to day life has nothing to do with my family of origin. Where I travel, who my child sees, where my money goes. My successes are my own and I get to keep them. My day to day life is about my family of choice is doing our thing. Ultimately, my family of origin does not deserve my attention or time and they don't get it.
Also I did lots and lots of therapy.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:04 AM on January 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
Sorry you are in this position. This sounds very, very hard. I’m sure your boyfriend has many valid concerns, but I have to say an ultimatum from a partner that says cut ties to your blood family or we can’t get married would be a huge problem for me.
Deciding to do that of your own is volition is totally different. I just can’t see how doing it because of an ultimatum (and possibly an ultimatum that it sounds like it will be heavily influenced by what his family thinks) would not result in some real resentment down the line. What if the marriage doesn’t work out and you’ve cut your entire family out of your life for him?
Could couples counseling and some individual therapy for you to figure out what kind of boundaries you need to establish and how to hold them be of any value here? I feel like you might benefit from this regardless of your relationship status.
posted by cultureclash82 at 4:20 AM on January 7, 2022 [19 favorites]
Deciding to do that of your own is volition is totally different. I just can’t see how doing it because of an ultimatum (and possibly an ultimatum that it sounds like it will be heavily influenced by what his family thinks) would not result in some real resentment down the line. What if the marriage doesn’t work out and you’ve cut your entire family out of your life for him?
Could couples counseling and some individual therapy for you to figure out what kind of boundaries you need to establish and how to hold them be of any value here? I feel like you might benefit from this regardless of your relationship status.
posted by cultureclash82 at 4:20 AM on January 7, 2022 [19 favorites]
Are you in therapy? Do you have sustainable coping mechanisms for when you're triggered, and have you talked in therapy about what healthy boundaries look like and how to maintain them? Your boyfriend isn't wrong to be concerned--if your kids see your dad what is your plan for ensuring he doesn't abuse them? How are you going to ensure you can still provide your kids support if your family triggers you? How are you planning to financially support both your parents and your new family--like building savings for you, your partner, and kids while still keeping your parents (and possibly your brothers?) in the situation you want to keep them in?
If I were your boyfriend I'd want to be having discussions not just about the emotional cost of staying in contact with your family, but with your plans to ensure that remaining in contact does not further pass trauma on and does not hinder your ability to build a happy, healthy life with him and any future children.
posted by Anonymous at 4:26 AM on January 7, 2022
If I were your boyfriend I'd want to be having discussions not just about the emotional cost of staying in contact with your family, but with your plans to ensure that remaining in contact does not further pass trauma on and does not hinder your ability to build a happy, healthy life with him and any future children.
posted by Anonymous at 4:26 AM on January 7, 2022
It sounds like he wants to know what level of contact *you* truly want with your family, especially when you have children of your own, and yes, that will eventually affect him because that will be determining what your family unit, with him, will have in the way of contact, but he's wanting to know what you truly want.
However, in line with your trauma and the enmeshment and poor boundaries of your family, it sounds like you're wanting to ask a bunch of strangers online so that you can give him 'the right answer' or 'the best answer', or what he wants to hear, or anything other than what *you actually want*.
That in itself is kind of a sign of really poor boundaries.
I would suggest you either have therapy to really explore this, or a shortcut that might work for you :
Imagine you have a child, or children. Say an 8 year old girl. Your daughter, and it is your job as a parent above all, to protect your daughter and raise her as well as you can.
First test question: If your now boyfriend became abusive, how would you protect your daughter?
The answer should probably start with something like remove her from the abusive environment, even if it means leaving your boyfriend.
If you're not starting from a basis like that, this probably won't be an effective thought experiment.
But assuming that is, OK, how do you interact with your family while being a good parent to your imaginary daughter?
You might decide that you want your child to know your family, but you don't want to expose her to physical, emotional or financial abuse. You don't want her to be around the toxic situations you were in.
That might mean that you never stay under the same roof as your family because you are always making sure you have an escape route for your children. You meet family when no one has been drinking, in public, or for shorter periods of time. You don't lend money to your family. If you are financially well off and can spare it without it negatively affecting your children, you help out but you never directly hand cash over. You give your mother supermarket gift vouchers if you have to. If you are not financially well off, you make it clear that you're not going to be and to support your parents or brothers, because your kids come first.
These are the kinds of tactics that people come up with so that they can be in contact with abusive family without being exposed to the abuse.
But it does mean thinking about, not what your family would think, or your boyfriend wants, but if you had children and they were your *first* priority, what kind of contact could you safely have with your family or your boyfriends family, so that your kids don't have the same kind of trauma you do?
If your boyfriends father takes a turn for the worse, how will you protect your children from experiencing that kind of toxicity?
This is not just about your family, but about how much contact you will allow abusive people with your children, no matter who they are.
If you can get a really clear picture to those questions, congrats, that's what your boyfriend is asking. I think it's worth being honest with him, and that you need to, because he also needs to decide what kind of parent he'll be. This might not be compatible. There's no cheat code or right thing to say for that.
posted by Elysum at 4:38 AM on January 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
However, in line with your trauma and the enmeshment and poor boundaries of your family, it sounds like you're wanting to ask a bunch of strangers online so that you can give him 'the right answer' or 'the best answer', or what he wants to hear, or anything other than what *you actually want*.
That in itself is kind of a sign of really poor boundaries.
I would suggest you either have therapy to really explore this, or a shortcut that might work for you :
Imagine you have a child, or children. Say an 8 year old girl. Your daughter, and it is your job as a parent above all, to protect your daughter and raise her as well as you can.
First test question: If your now boyfriend became abusive, how would you protect your daughter?
The answer should probably start with something like remove her from the abusive environment, even if it means leaving your boyfriend.
If you're not starting from a basis like that, this probably won't be an effective thought experiment.
But assuming that is, OK, how do you interact with your family while being a good parent to your imaginary daughter?
You might decide that you want your child to know your family, but you don't want to expose her to physical, emotional or financial abuse. You don't want her to be around the toxic situations you were in.
That might mean that you never stay under the same roof as your family because you are always making sure you have an escape route for your children. You meet family when no one has been drinking, in public, or for shorter periods of time. You don't lend money to your family. If you are financially well off and can spare it without it negatively affecting your children, you help out but you never directly hand cash over. You give your mother supermarket gift vouchers if you have to. If you are not financially well off, you make it clear that you're not going to be and to support your parents or brothers, because your kids come first.
These are the kinds of tactics that people come up with so that they can be in contact with abusive family without being exposed to the abuse.
But it does mean thinking about, not what your family would think, or your boyfriend wants, but if you had children and they were your *first* priority, what kind of contact could you safely have with your family or your boyfriends family, so that your kids don't have the same kind of trauma you do?
If your boyfriends father takes a turn for the worse, how will you protect your children from experiencing that kind of toxicity?
This is not just about your family, but about how much contact you will allow abusive people with your children, no matter who they are.
If you can get a really clear picture to those questions, congrats, that's what your boyfriend is asking. I think it's worth being honest with him, and that you need to, because he also needs to decide what kind of parent he'll be. This might not be compatible. There's no cheat code or right thing to say for that.
posted by Elysum at 4:38 AM on January 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
Addendum: while I can’t hang with a “me or them” ultimatum, the issues you are describing re abuse and finances are a big deal, and I can certainly see your partner’s concerns. Whether you marry him or not, these would be likely to come up in another relationship, if you have children, and even if you don’t, and so it’s probably worth having a really honest conversation with yourself, and possibly with a professional, about how you want to handle things. I would not kick the can down the road if this relationship doesn’t work out because these are real issues that need some major boundary setting to prevent further damage to your life and any future family. Sending you a hug, OP.
posted by cultureclash82 at 4:51 AM on January 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by cultureclash82 at 4:51 AM on January 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
Ok, maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but something seems off about this guy's request. Is this the same guy who kept comparing you to his ex? If it is, this guy is not going to stop negging you if you cut your family off completely.
That and the "I'm ashamed to talk about your family to my family" is a big red flag. Someone who cares for you would want you to feel better about your life for your own sake, or at most want you to feel better about your life for THEIR sake, not because they fear parental disapproval. He's a full grown man, and if he doesn't want to deal with your family issues, that's his decision, not something to "speak to his family about" to hold over your head.
(I admit I'm coming at this from a Western perspective where parental approval isn't a huge deal in a marriage--I don't know if you're both from different backgrounds where "I'll speak to mom and dad about my relationship" would be more normalized.)
posted by kingdead at 4:52 AM on January 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
That and the "I'm ashamed to talk about your family to my family" is a big red flag. Someone who cares for you would want you to feel better about your life for your own sake, or at most want you to feel better about your life for THEIR sake, not because they fear parental disapproval. He's a full grown man, and if he doesn't want to deal with your family issues, that's his decision, not something to "speak to his family about" to hold over your head.
(I admit I'm coming at this from a Western perspective where parental approval isn't a huge deal in a marriage--I don't know if you're both from different backgrounds where "I'll speak to mom and dad about my relationship" would be more normalized.)
posted by kingdead at 4:52 AM on January 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
Response by poster: It is the same guy. He doesn't talk about his ex anymore, although it still haunts me a bit. I agree that he should be more focused on me. He didn't say he was ashamed of me, he said he is concerned and anxious about how his family will react and ashamed of the mess and anxiety he will be causing in their lives.
We do come from a very different background, both of us are South Asians and come from conservative, family oriented backgrounds. The kind of thing where when you marry someone you are marrying into their family.
posted by Sunflower88 at 4:57 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
We do come from a very different background, both of us are South Asians and come from conservative, family oriented backgrounds. The kind of thing where when you marry someone you are marrying into their family.
posted by Sunflower88 at 4:57 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think he has some legitimate concerns about the harm your family could do to you or your new family, especially if you were planning on getting married and having kids. I come from a western background so can't speak to cultural family differences, but your boyfriend should support you and have concern for you instead of guilting you about being ashamed of you/your family. I would take a hard look at him and see if he's bringing a net positive into your life.
posted by faustian slip at 5:28 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by faustian slip at 5:28 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
It looks like your boyfriend has made you feel bad about yourself on other occasions and he's doing it again. Does he have a need to feel superior to you? He certainly believes his family is superior to yours. Does he want to be in control? He seems to be lacking in generosity of spirit and compassion.
I'm all for cutting off toxic parents, I have not had any contact with my father in decades. But it should be your decision, you should not be pressured into it. It's been relatively easy for me, my father chose to live in another country thousands of miles across the ocean, so he's not in my neighborhood.
I think maybe it's time for you to cut off both the boyfriend and the toxic family. You need some time to figure out YOU without all these people pushing and pulling you and manipulating you this way and that. When you feel capable of setting stronger boundaries maybe you can reconnect with your family. The boyfriend, in my opinion, no. I'm sure there's a much kinder more supportive man out there for you.
posted by mareli at 5:41 AM on January 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm all for cutting off toxic parents, I have not had any contact with my father in decades. But it should be your decision, you should not be pressured into it. It's been relatively easy for me, my father chose to live in another country thousands of miles across the ocean, so he's not in my neighborhood.
I think maybe it's time for you to cut off both the boyfriend and the toxic family. You need some time to figure out YOU without all these people pushing and pulling you and manipulating you this way and that. When you feel capable of setting stronger boundaries maybe you can reconnect with your family. The boyfriend, in my opinion, no. I'm sure there's a much kinder more supportive man out there for you.
posted by mareli at 5:41 AM on January 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
I would encourage you to attend online meetings of Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families, ideally ones (if they exist) that reflect your own culture or one that is similar. (The website claims there are meetings in Asia; I found an in-person meeting in Bali but did not have time to look further.) I think those meetings can help you decide what you want to do and if that matches or clashes with what your boyfriend wants you to do.
Captain Awkward has lots of sound advice (CW warning for link to abuse topic) as a white American woman who has known poverty and marginalisation as a fat person but does not necessarily know your culture. Many of her letter writers have been attempting to navigate difficult family and/or friend situations. So poke around there a bit to see if you find anything helpful.
My dad was a sketchy bastard who I loved and who loved me but still did shit like getting rental payments from his tenants sent in my name to a joint account so he wouldn't have to pay taxes–and also never ever telling me. I found out about it accidentally. So I identify with your situation. I am so sorry you had that kind of childhood and now adulthood.
As someone whose family was also a mess (my parents are dead now), let me send you a zillion congratulations for getting away from home, becoming your own person, and setting boundaries with your parents. That is so hard to do! So whatever you decide, please know that this particular Internet stranger considers you a rock star.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:55 AM on January 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Captain Awkward has lots of sound advice (CW warning for link to abuse topic) as a white American woman who has known poverty and marginalisation as a fat person but does not necessarily know your culture. Many of her letter writers have been attempting to navigate difficult family and/or friend situations. So poke around there a bit to see if you find anything helpful.
My dad was a sketchy bastard who I loved and who loved me but still did shit like getting rental payments from his tenants sent in my name to a joint account so he wouldn't have to pay taxes–and also never ever telling me. I found out about it accidentally. So I identify with your situation. I am so sorry you had that kind of childhood and now adulthood.
As someone whose family was also a mess (my parents are dead now), let me send you a zillion congratulations for getting away from home, becoming your own person, and setting boundaries with your parents. That is so hard to do! So whatever you decide, please know that this particular Internet stranger considers you a rock star.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:55 AM on January 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I fall on the side that your relationship with your family is something for you to determine - it is a huge and personal decision - and that something feels off about having someone else tell you to choose.
You said in another question that your boyfriend's love feels conditional. Has this changed? It seems like either it's still true and this family thing is a part of that, or maybe he really is just asking you to think about things and it's not a condition, but you've become used to seeing things that way, maybe for good reason.
If you say "look, I really see your points, but also I do still want to have some connection with my family", will he accept it, support you in it, stand up for you if his family takes issue with it, defend your desire to not cut people off, tell his family to back off if they criticize you? Or will he convey it to them as something he's not happy about, something bad that you're bringing into the relationship, a negative mark against you? Is this something you're going to be made to apologise for all your life, or is he someone who will get behind you and support you?
How much does his family even need to know anyway? Do they really need to know the details? What exactly is he planning to tell them that will cause the mess and anxiety he's envisioning?
Has he thought about the same things he's asked you to think about with respect to his own family? How do you feel about his answers? Have you two talked about whether you'll need to protect kids from his "volatile" father, how much time you'll be expected to spend with his family, and what the dynamics between you all will be with respect to hierarchy and so forth?
Does his family treat you well and with respect?
posted by trig at 6:23 AM on January 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
You said in another question that your boyfriend's love feels conditional. Has this changed? It seems like either it's still true and this family thing is a part of that, or maybe he really is just asking you to think about things and it's not a condition, but you've become used to seeing things that way, maybe for good reason.
If you say "look, I really see your points, but also I do still want to have some connection with my family", will he accept it, support you in it, stand up for you if his family takes issue with it, defend your desire to not cut people off, tell his family to back off if they criticize you? Or will he convey it to them as something he's not happy about, something bad that you're bringing into the relationship, a negative mark against you? Is this something you're going to be made to apologise for all your life, or is he someone who will get behind you and support you?
How much does his family even need to know anyway? Do they really need to know the details? What exactly is he planning to tell them that will cause the mess and anxiety he's envisioning?
Has he thought about the same things he's asked you to think about with respect to his own family? How do you feel about his answers? Have you two talked about whether you'll need to protect kids from his "volatile" father, how much time you'll be expected to spend with his family, and what the dynamics between you all will be with respect to hierarchy and so forth?
Does his family treat you well and with respect?
posted by trig at 6:23 AM on January 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
My parents will be totally financially dependent on us in old age as they have nothing, it is likely my brothers also will be financially dependent on us.
Loving your family and feeling guilt about the situations they've created for themselves is understandable, but you can love people and still choose not to spend your life running to their rescue and dealing with their abuse and dysfunction, and it does not mean that you love them less but that you are choosing yourself.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:31 AM on January 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
Loving your family and feeling guilt about the situations they've created for themselves is understandable, but you can love people and still choose not to spend your life running to their rescue and dealing with their abuse and dysfunction, and it does not mean that you love them less but that you are choosing yourself.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:31 AM on January 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
I think it's important that you do what feels nurturing and safe for you. If you're not sure what that is please talk to a wise friend or a therapist or journal your thoughts. I grew up in a dysfunctional household and started therapy in my early 20s. I wanted to grow into adulthood in a healthy way and break family patterns as a partner and parent. It also helped me to grieve in a safe space. As far as whether this man is the one you marry you have to answer that for yourself and hopefully from a place of determination and self awareness. He is not wrong for wanting what he wants and neither are you.
posted by DixieBaby at 7:36 AM on January 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by DixieBaby at 7:36 AM on January 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
The problem basically comes down to this:
Do you think you can minimize the damage your dysfunctional family can do to you in the future?
Let's imagine some worst-case scenarios. Can you deal with the following:
* What if their home burned down and they're now homeless. You obviously cannot put up 4 people at your place. How many can you put up? How heavy of a guilt-trip can you bear?
* Maybe that's too drastic. Let's say their car broke down and needs a new transmission. Can you give them the money even if they call it a loan (since you know they won't ever repay it)? Maybe they went to buy a different vehicle instead and then called you to send them the money, and you realized they're not at a repair shop but at a car seller? (Oh, but this vehicle will be much more reliable than the old jalopy we have! We'll save money in the long run!)
If you doubt your ability to withstand guilt-trips, and will ride to their rescue no matter personal cost to you (and potentially to your partner), then the follow-up question is: to what end?
Most people hang on to abusive relationship hoping for a change, i.e. "if I just do enough, maybe I'll change him/her/them" Is that you? Are you hoping to change them into self-sufficient loving parents?
Is that realistic?
If you can be guilt-tripped back into being a floor mat, then it may be best to cut them out entirely and grieve on your own time and in your own space. The "net cost" may be less trauma, even though initially it could be a lot worse.
Remember, emotional vampires / toxic personalities can sense your vulnerabilities and use them against you.
You need to talk to a counselor. Your job may have Employee Assistance Program that gets you a discount toward seeing one even if your health plan doesn't cover it, and most do nowadays.
posted by kschang at 8:29 AM on January 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Do you think you can minimize the damage your dysfunctional family can do to you in the future?
Let's imagine some worst-case scenarios. Can you deal with the following:
* What if their home burned down and they're now homeless. You obviously cannot put up 4 people at your place. How many can you put up? How heavy of a guilt-trip can you bear?
* Maybe that's too drastic. Let's say their car broke down and needs a new transmission. Can you give them the money even if they call it a loan (since you know they won't ever repay it)? Maybe they went to buy a different vehicle instead and then called you to send them the money, and you realized they're not at a repair shop but at a car seller? (Oh, but this vehicle will be much more reliable than the old jalopy we have! We'll save money in the long run!)
If you doubt your ability to withstand guilt-trips, and will ride to their rescue no matter personal cost to you (and potentially to your partner), then the follow-up question is: to what end?
Most people hang on to abusive relationship hoping for a change, i.e. "if I just do enough, maybe I'll change him/her/them" Is that you? Are you hoping to change them into self-sufficient loving parents?
Is that realistic?
If you can be guilt-tripped back into being a floor mat, then it may be best to cut them out entirely and grieve on your own time and in your own space. The "net cost" may be less trauma, even though initially it could be a lot worse.
Remember, emotional vampires / toxic personalities can sense your vulnerabilities and use them against you.
You need to talk to a counselor. Your job may have Employee Assistance Program that gets you a discount toward seeing one even if your health plan doesn't cover it, and most do nowadays.
posted by kschang at 8:29 AM on January 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
He was also quite honest with me as he said he is quite ashamed to tell his family the details of my family as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family.
To me, these two sentences raise two different issues that need different responses.
The second sentence: It is understandable to be concerned about the implications of marrying into an abusive and nonfunctional family, especially if there is an ultimate expectation of financial support to abusers. That will be a stress on you and thus on your marriage. At least wanting to have complete clarity on the situation is reasonable.
The first sentence: Do not marry someone who is ashamed of you or your family. Do not even date them. I'm really sorry. I know that sounds harsh. But there is a huge gap between "I don't know if I can handle these particular stresses and strains in my life" and "I'm ashamed of you and your family, to the point that I don't even want to tell my family about yours." That he would even say the latter to you is beyond the pale. This man is either a snob or a child. If the former, he will hold your family over you forever, even if you give them up. If the latter, he may someday regret being so weak, but you can't marry him on the basis that he might someday grow up.
posted by praemunire at 8:48 AM on January 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
To me, these two sentences raise two different issues that need different responses.
The second sentence: It is understandable to be concerned about the implications of marrying into an abusive and nonfunctional family, especially if there is an ultimate expectation of financial support to abusers. That will be a stress on you and thus on your marriage. At least wanting to have complete clarity on the situation is reasonable.
The first sentence: Do not marry someone who is ashamed of you or your family. Do not even date them. I'm really sorry. I know that sounds harsh. But there is a huge gap between "I don't know if I can handle these particular stresses and strains in my life" and "I'm ashamed of you and your family, to the point that I don't even want to tell my family about yours." That he would even say the latter to you is beyond the pale. This man is either a snob or a child. If the former, he will hold your family over you forever, even if you give them up. If the latter, he may someday regret being so weak, but you can't marry him on the basis that he might someday grow up.
posted by praemunire at 8:48 AM on January 7, 2022 [23 favorites]
I am not South Asian, but I do come from a culture where families largely marry each other and are very interrelated, and this still gives me red flags.
For me it’s not just the idea of no contacting, but the idea that he doesn’t want you to financially support your parents when they are old. This is a reasonable expectation in cultures where the family is a large part of your life. It seems like he wants to essentially pretend that you are an orphan and don’t come from a family so that he and his family are not shamed or embarrassed by yours, and I’m just not sure that’s really tenable. I get wanting to protect his family from your dad, but it sounds like he wants you to cut off absolutely everyone.
I suppose the question is: how important is it to you to marry him? I can’t speak to your situation, but you need to figure that out. Because this pattern will likely continue, of him feeling he is the benevolent one and you aren’t quite equals.
posted by corb at 9:06 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
For me it’s not just the idea of no contacting, but the idea that he doesn’t want you to financially support your parents when they are old. This is a reasonable expectation in cultures where the family is a large part of your life. It seems like he wants to essentially pretend that you are an orphan and don’t come from a family so that he and his family are not shamed or embarrassed by yours, and I’m just not sure that’s really tenable. I get wanting to protect his family from your dad, but it sounds like he wants you to cut off absolutely everyone.
I suppose the question is: how important is it to you to marry him? I can’t speak to your situation, but you need to figure that out. Because this pattern will likely continue, of him feeling he is the benevolent one and you aren’t quite equals.
posted by corb at 9:06 AM on January 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I realize there might be a cultural element here, but I can't imagine my husband telling me he's worried about how his family will handle mine, and I'm in a similar situation to you. Abusive background, lots of trauma and poor functioning, marrying into upper middle stable actually love each other and act sane.
My partner has acted as a buffer for me in being low contact with my family. He's entertained my mother and given her narcissistic supply to spare me those dynamics. But there's not a financial ruin component to my situation. You may need to figure out whether you can remain in contact with family without volunteering yourself to provide for them financially in the future. That seems where he is most concerned, understandably so. It would also be his income expected to either provide for them or do so indirectly by meeting more of your financial needs if you gave all you had to them.
You can love your family and still not set yourself on fire to keep them warm.
To me it's two separate issues. (Well, three if you include the fact that boyfriend's response seems awfully cold. That is a red flag to me as this isn't a loving response on his part. He should want to support you. Not support his reputation and legacy or whatever. Also, I think it's one thing to cut your family off altogether and another to decide you won't do more than what one would do of there were not a lot of poor financial decisions. I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect you to abandon your family altogether if that isn't what you want.)
One, do you remain in contact with your abusive family? Two, do you allow them access to your resources? You can do the first without the second. You can develop a no phrase that feels right for you and be a broken record of need be. "I'm sorry you are in this situation but what you are asking won't be possible."
Again, I want to acknowledge that assertiveness in cultures beyond my own often works differently, but at the same time children of immigrants also get to decide how much they align to family culture and how much they choose to align to the majority culture. You can choose to decide assertive boundaries are an element of the larger culture you wish to adopt for yourself.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:08 AM on January 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
My partner has acted as a buffer for me in being low contact with my family. He's entertained my mother and given her narcissistic supply to spare me those dynamics. But there's not a financial ruin component to my situation. You may need to figure out whether you can remain in contact with family without volunteering yourself to provide for them financially in the future. That seems where he is most concerned, understandably so. It would also be his income expected to either provide for them or do so indirectly by meeting more of your financial needs if you gave all you had to them.
You can love your family and still not set yourself on fire to keep them warm.
To me it's two separate issues. (Well, three if you include the fact that boyfriend's response seems awfully cold. That is a red flag to me as this isn't a loving response on his part. He should want to support you. Not support his reputation and legacy or whatever. Also, I think it's one thing to cut your family off altogether and another to decide you won't do more than what one would do of there were not a lot of poor financial decisions. I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect you to abandon your family altogether if that isn't what you want.)
One, do you remain in contact with your abusive family? Two, do you allow them access to your resources? You can do the first without the second. You can develop a no phrase that feels right for you and be a broken record of need be. "I'm sorry you are in this situation but what you are asking won't be possible."
Again, I want to acknowledge that assertiveness in cultures beyond my own often works differently, but at the same time children of immigrants also get to decide how much they align to family culture and how much they choose to align to the majority culture. You can choose to decide assertive boundaries are an element of the larger culture you wish to adopt for yourself.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:08 AM on January 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
South Asian woman here; I understand the cultural angles. First of all, big hugs Sunflower88. You have been through a LOT and it seems you're making good progress in your healing. Keep it up! Asking this question is a good sign because it shows that your spidey sense is tingling about this guy - as it should.
"...he is quite ashamed to tell his family the details of my family as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family"
I am going to cut right to the chase here: he's not the guy for you. He is a stereotypical desi man who puts his family's values and desires above his partner's. He will never treat you with the compassion you deserve; he will always care more about what his family thinks than about you. He doesn't have the courage to be the man you need. Everyone deserves a patient, kind partner, but because of what you've been through, you need someone who is especially so. You need someone who will stand up for you and fight for you - even if it's against his own family - and this man will never do that. He will always make you feel ashamed of your background because HE is ashamed of it.
Please be kind to yourself and let him go. Memail me if you'd like to talk more.
posted by yawper at 9:37 AM on January 7, 2022 [46 favorites]
"...he is quite ashamed to tell his family the details of my family as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family"
I am going to cut right to the chase here: he's not the guy for you. He is a stereotypical desi man who puts his family's values and desires above his partner's. He will never treat you with the compassion you deserve; he will always care more about what his family thinks than about you. He doesn't have the courage to be the man you need. Everyone deserves a patient, kind partner, but because of what you've been through, you need someone who is especially so. You need someone who will stand up for you and fight for you - even if it's against his own family - and this man will never do that. He will always make you feel ashamed of your background because HE is ashamed of it.
Please be kind to yourself and let him go. Memail me if you'd like to talk more.
posted by yawper at 9:37 AM on January 7, 2022 [46 favorites]
Well, as a person who is grappling with the effects a mentally unwell MIL is currently having on our family, I definitely was having some thoughts about maybe what I should have done when I married into this family some 20+ years ago. And, frankly, I'm only now resolving issues with my own dysfunctional family so my husband had to put up with how that trauma shaped me and my family. I think the important part, way back when, was that my boyfriend/future husband was good at setting boundaries. I'd never heard someone hang up on their own mother before and he certainly did it more than once when she'd start her nonsensical haranguing. It is fucking exhausting, though, having to set and reset and set again your boundaries with people who are family. I can tell you right now, there is no real expectation that you financial support your ailing parents and your incompetent brothers. In fact, if you are American then society has barely pieced together a safety net for these people (Medicare and Medicaid) and has offered you probably NOTHING in terms of how you would be able to care for them on your own. So, don't even go there.
Anyway, your boyfriend is not wrong to be worried and if you are committed to each other at this point, it's a good time to work through this in couple's therapy because there is a lot to unpack. It's a good thing to be honest. And while he might be trying to draw a boundary, he knows that with families, boundaries are real hard things to enforce. So he's speaking of fear and futility ahead of real problems which may or may not come to bear. But, it's up to you whether you two will bind together and work through this as a team. Don't be scared to confront this issue and learn new things. It won't be easy to work through this but you are on the right path to really confront it.
posted by amanda at 9:45 AM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway, your boyfriend is not wrong to be worried and if you are committed to each other at this point, it's a good time to work through this in couple's therapy because there is a lot to unpack. It's a good thing to be honest. And while he might be trying to draw a boundary, he knows that with families, boundaries are real hard things to enforce. So he's speaking of fear and futility ahead of real problems which may or may not come to bear. But, it's up to you whether you two will bind together and work through this as a team. Don't be scared to confront this issue and learn new things. It won't be easy to work through this but you are on the right path to really confront it.
posted by amanda at 9:45 AM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hey-- I'm your boyfriend in my relationship. My husband's family is terribly abusive and deeply dysfunctional and it was a HUGE issue in our relationship. (For what it's worth. He is also the child of immigrants although from a different background than your family's.) It sucked. It took a few years of therapy. We have ranged from full contact to no contact to some contact. We fought about it like crazy and sometimes said things we regretted. But, at no point did I speak to him in the way that your partner is speaking to you. I think that you absolutely have some hard work to do around how you want to handle you family moving forward, BUT your boyfriend should be on your team in that process even if sometimes he is understandably upset. The shaming, the ultimatums? Not normal and not OK. And combined with some of your previous questions regarding him, it makes me wonder if he is a good and safe person for you to be with as you work through these painful and complicated issues. Sending you all my best. Things can be better than this.
posted by jeszac at 10:37 AM on January 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by jeszac at 10:37 AM on January 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Regardless of whether or not you and the boyfriend work out, I'd really recommend you seek therapy and get the heck away from your family, for your own sake. There's nothing healthy about the relationships, just a whole bunch of guilt, obligation, fear, and trauma bonding. You won't heal until you can do it without their dragging you back down.
Then, it depends on whether or not he can let go of his wishes for a partner with a healthy family of origin. Honestly, it sounds like, while his may look good to you, it's not really all that healthy, and he's not willing to take on even worse. The thing is, with both your experiences, you have a baseline for understanding each other, and making for a really strong couple, provided you each learn and grow and discover how to support each other in a healthy manner.
But - that's a big decision to take on. It's a lot of work, both on yourself (the hardest part) and as a couple.
Good luck.
posted by stormyteal at 10:41 AM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then, it depends on whether or not he can let go of his wishes for a partner with a healthy family of origin. Honestly, it sounds like, while his may look good to you, it's not really all that healthy, and he's not willing to take on even worse. The thing is, with both your experiences, you have a baseline for understanding each other, and making for a really strong couple, provided you each learn and grow and discover how to support each other in a healthy manner.
But - that's a big decision to take on. It's a lot of work, both on yourself (the hardest part) and as a couple.
Good luck.
posted by stormyteal at 10:41 AM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Loving your family and feeling guilt about the situations they've created for themselves is understandable, but you can love people and still choose not to spend your life running to their rescue and dealing with their abuse and dysfunction, and it does not mean that you love them less but that you are choosing yourself.
This rings true to me. I am from a different background than yours but for a long time I was the one whose family was a mess and who dated people with more "balanced" families (though they had their own issues) and I won't lie, it was a mess and sometimes that was because of me. My alcoholic dad would hurt himself or get "blindsided" by a relationship that went south and it would be on me (according to him but also according to me at the time) to drop everything and manage it. Or my mother would get very upset that we weren't all having a holiday together and pout and enlist her friends to go after me and I'd have to manage and balance that, and again the cultural expectation was that I'd drop everything and go to her aid. For a long time I wasn't allowed to have my own me-centered approach, and that affected my relationships.
I got older, my parents passed. I got therapy. I made some changes. I still have a sister who, while a lovely person, still sometimes seems to need more than I can give. My partner has his own somewhat-messy family but the most important part is that we're on the same page, as a couple, about what our families mean to us and how to manage the various curveballs they can toss at us. It's hard and it doesn't always go smoothly but it feels real and supportive not me talking to a boyfriend like "I have to go take care of my dad!!" and getting greeted with "But what about me??" because, of course, we often seek out people who have some of the same dysfunctions that we're getting away from.
So I agree with others that it sounds like this guy has some wants/needs that are not really putting the relationship first (i.e. he wants you to change in order to be with you) BUT there are also some opportunities to change that are possible for you that might be healthy (seeing your toxic family less? feeling less beholden to them) that you might consider. It does sound like the two of you are not in the same page, so see if you can talk this out but I do agree the SHAME angle is almost the most concerning, to me. Best of luck this is not an easy road.
posted by jessamyn at 11:08 AM on January 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
This rings true to me. I am from a different background than yours but for a long time I was the one whose family was a mess and who dated people with more "balanced" families (though they had their own issues) and I won't lie, it was a mess and sometimes that was because of me. My alcoholic dad would hurt himself or get "blindsided" by a relationship that went south and it would be on me (according to him but also according to me at the time) to drop everything and manage it. Or my mother would get very upset that we weren't all having a holiday together and pout and enlist her friends to go after me and I'd have to manage and balance that, and again the cultural expectation was that I'd drop everything and go to her aid. For a long time I wasn't allowed to have my own me-centered approach, and that affected my relationships.
I got older, my parents passed. I got therapy. I made some changes. I still have a sister who, while a lovely person, still sometimes seems to need more than I can give. My partner has his own somewhat-messy family but the most important part is that we're on the same page, as a couple, about what our families mean to us and how to manage the various curveballs they can toss at us. It's hard and it doesn't always go smoothly but it feels real and supportive not me talking to a boyfriend like "I have to go take care of my dad!!" and getting greeted with "But what about me??" because, of course, we often seek out people who have some of the same dysfunctions that we're getting away from.
So I agree with others that it sounds like this guy has some wants/needs that are not really putting the relationship first (i.e. he wants you to change in order to be with you) BUT there are also some opportunities to change that are possible for you that might be healthy (seeing your toxic family less? feeling less beholden to them) that you might consider. It does sound like the two of you are not in the same page, so see if you can talk this out but I do agree the SHAME angle is almost the most concerning, to me. Best of luck this is not an easy road.
posted by jessamyn at 11:08 AM on January 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Big hugs, this is really hard.
The question is how much will I be financially supporting them in their old age.
I think (one of) the question(s) is how much you want to be financially supporting them in their old age.
Definitely figure out, for your own benefit, not anyone else's, how you want to interact in the future with your family. In terms of amount of contact, types of contact, what you will do for them, not do for them. Think about how much money you want to give them (if any), what kind of interaction you'll have with them if you have kids (if any). Maybe this will be upsetting to think about right now: what to do when your parents or brothers has an illness/injury? What do you want to do there? What do you want to do when your parents pass - will you attend the funeral?
What expectations do you have for a partner (either current or future) in terms of your relationship with your family? Is your partner meeting them now (likely no)? Similarly, what expectations does your partner have for you in terms of their relationship with their family? What kind of interactions do you want to have with your partner's (either current or future) family?
He has to understand that the decision to cut off your family is yours and yours alone. Yet he wants you to do it because HE is ashamed of THEM. It's clear that he thinks your family is problematic, BUT, that he and his family are also BETTER than yours. Your family is a problem to him, and his "solution" is for you to cut them off, to make him happy (and he *says* that it will be better for you as well, but again, that is *your* determination to make). Bottom line: he isn't supportive of you. I agree with you that this isn't going to end well.
Based on this information, he will be speaking to his family about how to move forward.
I don't know what this entails, but I don't like the sounds of it (I'm not from your cultural background). I know that he's not going to his family saying something like, "OP has a challenging family, this is how I'm going to support her, I'd like your support" but rather "OP has a challenging family, what do you think, tell me what to do, this is bad right?" Just based on that line above, I'd say something like, "Ok, I'll go away and have a think about my family." And then come back (in 5 mins, a day, a week, whatever) and say "OK, I've made a decision. I'm breaking up with you."
posted by foxjacket at 12:21 PM on January 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
The question is how much will I be financially supporting them in their old age.
I think (one of) the question(s) is how much you want to be financially supporting them in their old age.
Definitely figure out, for your own benefit, not anyone else's, how you want to interact in the future with your family. In terms of amount of contact, types of contact, what you will do for them, not do for them. Think about how much money you want to give them (if any), what kind of interaction you'll have with them if you have kids (if any). Maybe this will be upsetting to think about right now: what to do when your parents or brothers has an illness/injury? What do you want to do there? What do you want to do when your parents pass - will you attend the funeral?
What expectations do you have for a partner (either current or future) in terms of your relationship with your family? Is your partner meeting them now (likely no)? Similarly, what expectations does your partner have for you in terms of their relationship with their family? What kind of interactions do you want to have with your partner's (either current or future) family?
He has to understand that the decision to cut off your family is yours and yours alone. Yet he wants you to do it because HE is ashamed of THEM. It's clear that he thinks your family is problematic, BUT, that he and his family are also BETTER than yours. Your family is a problem to him, and his "solution" is for you to cut them off, to make him happy (and he *says* that it will be better for you as well, but again, that is *your* determination to make). Bottom line: he isn't supportive of you. I agree with you that this isn't going to end well.
Based on this information, he will be speaking to his family about how to move forward.
I don't know what this entails, but I don't like the sounds of it (I'm not from your cultural background). I know that he's not going to his family saying something like, "OP has a challenging family, this is how I'm going to support her, I'd like your support" but rather "OP has a challenging family, what do you think, tell me what to do, this is bad right?" Just based on that line above, I'd say something like, "Ok, I'll go away and have a think about my family." And then come back (in 5 mins, a day, a week, whatever) and say "OK, I've made a decision. I'm breaking up with you."
posted by foxjacket at 12:21 PM on January 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
My Mum is not abusive but due to her weak position has had to submit to my Dad and is now bound up with his toxicity - unfortunately they are one package now, even though she is an innocent victim of it all.
Reading this and then reading about the boyfriends demands that you cut off all ties with your family made me wonder if you are in the process of repeating some kind of pattern that you've witnessed your entire life.
I can't tell you what to do with regards to your family, but I would advise that you think long and hard about what your relationship dynamic looks like and evaluate if the two of you are equals--and if he has a similar perception.
posted by sardonyx at 1:37 PM on January 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
Reading this and then reading about the boyfriends demands that you cut off all ties with your family made me wonder if you are in the process of repeating some kind of pattern that you've witnessed your entire life.
I can't tell you what to do with regards to your family, but I would advise that you think long and hard about what your relationship dynamic looks like and evaluate if the two of you are equals--and if he has a similar perception.
posted by sardonyx at 1:37 PM on January 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
My American-born side was going to comment that your situation sounded really difficult and that I could understand your boyfriend's concerns, and maybe it's worth considering cutting off family for yourself. But then my desi side read this :
both of us are South Asians and come from conservative, family oriented backgrounds
Oh. Shit. Yeah, add my hugs to Yawper's. Yeah, it's understandable that a potential spouse might be nervous about enmeshing themselves with a toxic family, but if you're BOTH (conservative) South Asian then I find it mind bending that he would ask you to consider cutting them off. I can see that it would be fair to ask you to address the issue head on, how he might ask for assurances of boundaries and/or to agree on how to go forward together as a team. And if you were thinking of cutting ties yourself, that's different. But I would have... worries... about a South Asian man devoted to his mother who (it is implied) expects you to marry into his family, but also thinks his family will look down on you and also is comfortable asking you to cut off your own family?
I'm so sorry, this doesn't feel good. I want better for you.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
both of us are South Asians and come from conservative, family oriented backgrounds
Oh. Shit. Yeah, add my hugs to Yawper's. Yeah, it's understandable that a potential spouse might be nervous about enmeshing themselves with a toxic family, but if you're BOTH (conservative) South Asian then I find it mind bending that he would ask you to consider cutting them off. I can see that it would be fair to ask you to address the issue head on, how he might ask for assurances of boundaries and/or to agree on how to go forward together as a team. And if you were thinking of cutting ties yourself, that's different. But I would have... worries... about a South Asian man devoted to his mother who (it is implied) expects you to marry into his family, but also thinks his family will look down on you and also is comfortable asking you to cut off your own family?
I'm so sorry, this doesn't feel good. I want better for you.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 2:18 PM on January 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
So. Family means so much to this man that he is asking his own parents about whether or not he should marry you and is basing his decision on that while at the same time asking you to completely abandon your own family? I’d tell your fiancé HIS family has way too much influence over him, you’re concerned about how enmeshed he is and you’ll cut off your family when he cuts off his. Then break up with him. Regardless of your own family issues, it’s never going to work with this man.
posted by Jubey at 3:28 PM on January 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 3:28 PM on January 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
I can't speak to the South Asian-ness of it all. I do think it is legitimate to not be bouncing with joy at the idea of marrying into a toxic family. I think that is probably going to be really hard on a marriage and I certainly remember the fun my ex-cousin-in-law had marrying into a family where the in-laws despised her (they are the sort who despise anyone who marries in). I have a married couple set of friends who say it's easier that both of them come from toxic families that don't like them because they both get that about each other, but if they'd married someone from a functional family, that person wouldn't get it. So I think that's a reasonable concern. I think wanting to marry into a nice, functional family is really reasonable. Given my own relatives, I'd consider myself fortunate if I married someone where the in-laws didn't actively try to destroy me, and I feel legitimately bad that anyone who married me would NOT be made welcome by a good chunk of people.
On the other hand, I don't think your boyfriend can demand that you cut them off in order to further/keep your relationship, either. And the rest of his behavior doesn't sound great either. I don't think this relationship is going to last forever. It sounds like he's asking "are you willing to cut off your family forever?" and since your answer is NO, well...there goes boyfriend.
You're not asking whether or not to cut off your family--you've decided that even if they are toxic, you are staying at least somewhat in contact with them. That's up to you. But he can certainly decide that he doesn't want to marry into that relationship and be stuck with it on a more intimate level, as well. If your family is so toxic he doesn't want the kids around them, that's saying something. And even if this relationship ends, it may be an issue with future guys as well. I get not wanting to cut off family because they are all you have even if they suck, I hate the idea of being all alone forever if I have none myself. But sucky family can also really impede your ability to find and form a new family, tool
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:51 PM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, I don't think your boyfriend can demand that you cut them off in order to further/keep your relationship, either. And the rest of his behavior doesn't sound great either. I don't think this relationship is going to last forever. It sounds like he's asking "are you willing to cut off your family forever?" and since your answer is NO, well...there goes boyfriend.
You're not asking whether or not to cut off your family--you've decided that even if they are toxic, you are staying at least somewhat in contact with them. That's up to you. But he can certainly decide that he doesn't want to marry into that relationship and be stuck with it on a more intimate level, as well. If your family is so toxic he doesn't want the kids around them, that's saying something. And even if this relationship ends, it may be an issue with future guys as well. I get not wanting to cut off family because they are all you have even if they suck, I hate the idea of being all alone forever if I have none myself. But sucky family can also really impede your ability to find and form a new family, tool
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:51 PM on January 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, this sounds very hard, and as a South Asian person, I recognise your boyfriend's reaction as typical of many conservative, patriarchal and entitled desi men.
He is asking you to put his and his family's needs above the needs of your personal needs (to maintain a relationship with your own family), and this is a pattern that will keep recurring.
While I am sorry for the trauma your own family have put you through - it sounds terribly hard - you are the one who gets to make the call about what boundaries you set and what kind of relationship you have with them. No one else does. And the fact that your boyfriend is issuing ultimatums makes me worry about your long term happiness with him.
He's showing you who he is; believe him.
posted by unicorn chaser at 5:02 PM on January 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
He is asking you to put his and his family's needs above the needs of your personal needs (to maintain a relationship with your own family), and this is a pattern that will keep recurring.
While I am sorry for the trauma your own family have put you through - it sounds terribly hard - you are the one who gets to make the call about what boundaries you set and what kind of relationship you have with them. No one else does. And the fact that your boyfriend is issuing ultimatums makes me worry about your long term happiness with him.
He's showing you who he is; believe him.
posted by unicorn chaser at 5:02 PM on January 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
"He has asked me to go away and think about what *I* want for the future in terms of a relationship with my family" I think this is good advice that you should do for yourself. There isn't a right answer here. But I think it's important to be realistic and make a conscious decision (not necessarily a permanent decision, just for the next year or few years) whether it's "my family will always be involved even if it's to a small degree", "I am going to cut them off", or "while I'm very tempted to cut them off, and it might be better for me, realistically I'm not going to do that anytime soon. I'll see how it goes and spend more or less time with them as feels right."
Assuming your answer isn't "I'm going to cut them off" then it will be your boyfriend's turn to come to terms with the reality that they will be involved. His response will probably give you many of your answers: will he be supportive? Does he respond in an understanding way? Are your desires as important to him as his anxiety about his family's response?
To me, the biggest trap here would be to take your torn feelings and pressure yourself into deciding to cut them off just to save your boyfriend from his family's judgment. From your answer it doesn't sound like you want to cut your parents off just yet. That's okay. You're allowed to have mixed feelings about your parents. He's allowed to judge and not like your parents. He's allowed to be worried about how his family will react. It would even be reasonable to come to a joint decision whether your kids would spend time with your parents. But other than the question about kids I don't think it's fair to pressure you into a decision. I think what he's actually asking is "hey, I know you have mixed feelings about your family. It would make my life a lot easier if I didn't have to tell my parents about this and you decided to cut them off. So can you do that?" You are talking about a very serious decision for whether to cut off your family. The priority should not be making bf's life easier. Hopefully he was just being inconsiderate and when you talk about it he'll be okay prioritizing you and your feelings. But if not then I think you have your answer. As someone who has struggled and seen my siblings struggle over whether or not to cut off our parents my heart goes out to you. Sending virtual hugs your way. It's always complicated so don't listen if anyone tells you it's simple and you have to do X, Y or Z.
posted by aaabbbccc at 7:09 PM on January 7, 2022
Assuming your answer isn't "I'm going to cut them off" then it will be your boyfriend's turn to come to terms with the reality that they will be involved. His response will probably give you many of your answers: will he be supportive? Does he respond in an understanding way? Are your desires as important to him as his anxiety about his family's response?
To me, the biggest trap here would be to take your torn feelings and pressure yourself into deciding to cut them off just to save your boyfriend from his family's judgment. From your answer it doesn't sound like you want to cut your parents off just yet. That's okay. You're allowed to have mixed feelings about your parents. He's allowed to judge and not like your parents. He's allowed to be worried about how his family will react. It would even be reasonable to come to a joint decision whether your kids would spend time with your parents. But other than the question about kids I don't think it's fair to pressure you into a decision. I think what he's actually asking is "hey, I know you have mixed feelings about your family. It would make my life a lot easier if I didn't have to tell my parents about this and you decided to cut them off. So can you do that?" You are talking about a very serious decision for whether to cut off your family. The priority should not be making bf's life easier. Hopefully he was just being inconsiderate and when you talk about it he'll be okay prioritizing you and your feelings. But if not then I think you have your answer. As someone who has struggled and seen my siblings struggle over whether or not to cut off our parents my heart goes out to you. Sending virtual hugs your way. It's always complicated so don't listen if anyone tells you it's simple and you have to do X, Y or Z.
posted by aaabbbccc at 7:09 PM on January 7, 2022
Wow, as someone whose home life was closer to yours than his: Ditch this dude. He’s not wrong about a lot of this, but the way he seems to be expressing it is really shitty and uncaring.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:48 PM on January 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:48 PM on January 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
OP, I’m South Asian too and Yawper has nailed this.
He may have legitimate concerns but a good and equal partner would support you in how to figure this out.
This is a typically desi, patriarchal mindset where you will be absorbed into his family which he thinks is superior to yours as well as being inherently more important.
posted by cultureclash82 at 9:17 PM on January 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
He may have legitimate concerns but a good and equal partner would support you in how to figure this out.
This is a typically desi, patriarchal mindset where you will be absorbed into his family which he thinks is superior to yours as well as being inherently more important.
posted by cultureclash82 at 9:17 PM on January 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
as he's scared of what they will think and say to him. He has expressed a desire to marry into a family which is supportive and functional and doesn't know that he can handle the kind of shit that I bring along with my family.
I’ll be very blunt here: this is pitiably weak. It’s a major weakness in your boyfriend’s character. Dealing with a partner’s abusive or difficult family is a basic life skill that most people hone in their teen years and have perfected by their mid-20s and it’s troubling that your boyfriend has not only never done this, but is so open about how sheltered and dependent he is that he openly says he doesn’t think he can “handle” families that aren’t able to treat him like a child the way his own family does. The stuff he’s talking about is on a different scale from the reasonable request to not leave your kids alone with your violent father. This is the emotional and interpersonal equivalent of your brothers’ inability to keep jobs or move out of the house— it’s a major adult skillset that he’s lacking, and won’t admit is a problem. Your family sounds difficult and painful to deal with, but you and your relationship with them aren’t the problem here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 2:02 PM on January 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’ll be very blunt here: this is pitiably weak. It’s a major weakness in your boyfriend’s character. Dealing with a partner’s abusive or difficult family is a basic life skill that most people hone in their teen years and have perfected by their mid-20s and it’s troubling that your boyfriend has not only never done this, but is so open about how sheltered and dependent he is that he openly says he doesn’t think he can “handle” families that aren’t able to treat him like a child the way his own family does. The stuff he’s talking about is on a different scale from the reasonable request to not leave your kids alone with your violent father. This is the emotional and interpersonal equivalent of your brothers’ inability to keep jobs or move out of the house— it’s a major adult skillset that he’s lacking, and won’t admit is a problem. Your family sounds difficult and painful to deal with, but you and your relationship with them aren’t the problem here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 2:02 PM on January 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: @moonlight on vermouth, thanks for your response.
I think it's more than he comes from a middle class milieu, very financially and emotionally stable and he doesn't want to be associated with dysfunction with his immediate and wider family also. So I think it's more to do with that than a personal feeling of being unable to handle it, that's my impression.
That's his choice though then to make, he can't put that pressure on me.
posted by Sunflower88 at 1:46 AM on January 9, 2022
I think it's more than he comes from a middle class milieu, very financially and emotionally stable and he doesn't want to be associated with dysfunction with his immediate and wider family also. So I think it's more to do with that than a personal feeling of being unable to handle it, that's my impression.
That's his choice though then to make, he can't put that pressure on me.
posted by Sunflower88 at 1:46 AM on January 9, 2022
I am South Asian as well and nth Yawper.
posted by anthropomorphic at 11:25 AM on January 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by anthropomorphic at 11:25 AM on January 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My husband has sometimes found it really hard that I choose to keep in touch with my parents when at times, their treatment of me has caused me to be upset or triggered or just “off” for a while. That’s a really valid concern. But he also knows it is my choice and supports me in it. He doesn’t go to every event but he does show up, is kind, etc. He recognizes that it’s important to me to try. Sometimes I think he (and my therapist) was right about less contact, sometimes I’m glad I stuck to my family-feeling. He wasn’t wrong about it, it has been a choice that has at times been retraumatizing and hard. He still ultimately supports me though, even if I chose this thing that is hard. It’s not just one choice though, it’s over and over and over.
And although I think I’ve done ok overall, I have to say there have been times I haven’t been as present for my kids as I would have liked, especially on days like Christmas, which would be hard anyway but you add dealing with my parents and it gets messier. He’s mostly just stepped up to be there for them. But it is those moments where I’m unsure I was right. It’s ok, I get to be wrong too.
I’ve written before about my decision to have my parents in my kids’ lives. It’s been harder than I thought, because they are weird with my kids (we rarely let them interact alone, and my kids are 10 and 16, because we never know what they will say) but also because my kids are now old enough to be upset at how my parents treat me. It’s a mixed up thing. But even if I made a big mistake, my husband is not just in my corner - he agrees that we decided together, if that makes sense? We just take the repercussions as they come and he never blames me for a choice we made over the years.
For each of you though I see one area that probably needs to shift. For him, it’s the concept of shame. There’s no shame on you for how your family behaves, and definitely none on him. He might need some professional support to figure that out. If he doesn’t, that would for me be a dealbreaker. Frustration, sadness, anger, sure. But shame implies that there’s a culpability in being a part of your family and just - no.
For you, I think tying your financial future to such a volatile situation could be a legitimate dealbreaker for him. First, if you haven’t, definitely talk to an expert about how to protect yourself from loans taken out by others and make sure you have security in your credit dealings. Second, unless you two plan entirely different finances (and even then, his lifestyle will depend a bit on what you can contribute to housing etc.), he’s right to think really hard about your decision that you have to financially support all these other adults. So that might be something you want to explore.
If his questions had a respectful tone, I think they are really good ones. Not to give him a “right” answer but to really think through. If they were an ultimatum I’m not sure that’s a good sign, it seems very all or nothing to me.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:59 AM on January 7, 2022 [62 favorites]