Can your heart just get irrecoverably broken by a partner?
October 15, 2021 12:50 PM Subscribe
So, my relationship has been fantastic at times, and troubled at other times. My wife has a short fuse at times; arguments over big and small things have devolved into screaming, and I'm usually the one who calms things down. This has happened maybe, on average, bi-weekly over two years. It floods me with adrenaline, reminds me of some childhood trauma, and takes me days to recover from. The latest time this happened, I didn't really recover fully. My wife, after some time away, agrees that things need to change, and has committed to change quite earnestly, but I feel like my heart isn't in it. Has anyone else been here? Do you think this is over?
I don't want to give the impression that I've been perfect. I've definitely done things that have contributed to her stress level, which makes the screaming more likely. At the same time... the screaming. And a pattern of defensiveness and minimization of my wants that has made me feel pretty small.
I want to give this thing another shot if I can. I know that marriage is up and down. But I'm kind of feeling... done, categorically different from how I felt during other ups and downs. The relationship 'split in two' in my head, and I've felt bitter and depressed ever since. I don't want this feeling to dominate me, but I also don't think it's invalid. Is this a done thing, according to the experience of married and formerly married people on here?
I don't want to give the impression that I've been perfect. I've definitely done things that have contributed to her stress level, which makes the screaming more likely. At the same time... the screaming. And a pattern of defensiveness and minimization of my wants that has made me feel pretty small.
I want to give this thing another shot if I can. I know that marriage is up and down. But I'm kind of feeling... done, categorically different from how I felt during other ups and downs. The relationship 'split in two' in my head, and I've felt bitter and depressed ever since. I don't want this feeling to dominate me, but I also don't think it's invalid. Is this a done thing, according to the experience of married and formerly married people on here?
So here's the self-help take: relationship rupture followed by good repair is what makes our relationships grow stronger and be stronger. But, that repair is super important! And this doesn't work if things aren't changing or getting better. Screaming matches every few weeks over two years sounds completely exhausting. That's not like, "marriage is hard work" bad. That's "something is really wrong with this dynamic" bad.
I don't want to suggest that these level of conflict would be okay if it was only happening during the pandemic, but I am concerned that, if this has happening for two years, it's not only related to the pandemic (which has certainly increased stress for all of us).
So it's probably not going to work to give it another chance if something doesn't change. Is your wife getting help with this? Are you? Or are you both just muddling along, hoping something changes? I would suggest you both get into individual therapy. If your wife isn't getting help with her anger, she needs to, right away. I also think therapy would be good for you, to help your manage your stress and to get help making a decision about your relationship. You might need to leave now, but if you do want to try, you all need to make a change in how you are approaching this.
As for my marriage: I hemmed and hawed for years. It wasn't explosive like what you are describing at all. But I was thinking about ending it for ages. It a took a shift in our lives for me to see the big picture: we were both really unhappy, and it wasn't going to get better. One day my ex got really mad about something relatively minor, and I just snapped and finally finally made a firm almost instant decision to end the marriage because I finally saw clearly how happy he was too. But it was YEARS leading up to that seemingly quick decision. I definitely haven't regretted it.
It sounds like you feel pretty beat down. If you do decide to end your marriage, I still very much want to encourage you to pursue therapy. It's possibly that your marriage can improve, but you both have to be making conscious, intentional effort to heal yourselves first.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:09 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't want to suggest that these level of conflict would be okay if it was only happening during the pandemic, but I am concerned that, if this has happening for two years, it's not only related to the pandemic (which has certainly increased stress for all of us).
So it's probably not going to work to give it another chance if something doesn't change. Is your wife getting help with this? Are you? Or are you both just muddling along, hoping something changes? I would suggest you both get into individual therapy. If your wife isn't getting help with her anger, she needs to, right away. I also think therapy would be good for you, to help your manage your stress and to get help making a decision about your relationship. You might need to leave now, but if you do want to try, you all need to make a change in how you are approaching this.
As for my marriage: I hemmed and hawed for years. It wasn't explosive like what you are describing at all. But I was thinking about ending it for ages. It a took a shift in our lives for me to see the big picture: we were both really unhappy, and it wasn't going to get better. One day my ex got really mad about something relatively minor, and I just snapped and finally finally made a firm almost instant decision to end the marriage because I finally saw clearly how happy he was too. But it was YEARS leading up to that seemingly quick decision. I definitely haven't regretted it.
It sounds like you feel pretty beat down. If you do decide to end your marriage, I still very much want to encourage you to pursue therapy. It's possibly that your marriage can improve, but you both have to be making conscious, intentional effort to heal yourselves first.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:09 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
I only just discovered that the stress – response cycle is a real thing. When I am not on my phone I will try to post some links. If you can develop more effective ways to complete the stress-response cycle IF your wife addresses her inappropriate screaming and anger problem, you might be able to weather the storm and be OK eventually. But it’s also possible that you are just done. Take it a day at a time for a few weeks and see how you are feeling after that. Nothing about what your wife has been doing sounds OK and I’m so sorry that you’ve been treated that way.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also what bluedaisy says. Therapy for yourself for sure if you possibly can. It has been a lifesaver for me on more than one occasion.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:14 PM on October 15, 2021
posted by Bella Donna at 1:14 PM on October 15, 2021
I personally think screaming is akin to physically hitting someone. It is an assault. I would not be okay with someone, anyone, screaming at me once a decade, much less bi-weekly.
posted by nanook at 1:15 PM on October 15, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by nanook at 1:15 PM on October 15, 2021 [40 favorites]
I had a screaming parent growing up, and it affects me still, and TBH it would be an absolute dealbreaker for me in a relationship. (I'm not judging you for not leaving, just that it's a completely reasonable expectation that a partner should NEVER scream at you.)
I think if you were to attend counseling, the #1 thing I would insist on is that she has to take responsibility for it. You're not making her do it, you're not making her so mad she has to. She can stop. You can discuss the things that cause anger and still acknowledge that her reactions are her responsibility. She has to genuinely want to stop doing it forever instead of justifying when/why it's ok. This is harder than it sounds.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:24 PM on October 15, 2021 [29 favorites]
I think if you were to attend counseling, the #1 thing I would insist on is that she has to take responsibility for it. You're not making her do it, you're not making her so mad she has to. She can stop. You can discuss the things that cause anger and still acknowledge that her reactions are her responsibility. She has to genuinely want to stop doing it forever instead of justifying when/why it's ok. This is harder than it sounds.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:24 PM on October 15, 2021 [29 favorites]
It's reasonable for you to be suspicious on some level that her willingness to change just won't be enough. The yelling and the defensiveness and the minimization have made her someone you can't entirely trust. You might be "just done" with the marriage, or you might not - maybe talk to a therapist about what a good time limit would be for giving this another shot? How long do you want to be in a relationship with someone you're trying to rebuild trust with, before you start seeing real evidence of her commitment to change?
posted by All hands bury the dead at 1:30 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by All hands bury the dead at 1:30 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
The primary reason a person would feel a relationship is "done" or "split in two" is because it is done, because it is split in two.
Loving someone does not mean it works or even that it could work. It certainly doesn't mean you are morally obligated to do a ton of work to fix a thing you feel is over, that did not work for either of you.
Give yourself permission to consider that it feels like the end because it is the end. If you make space for that idea and you still want to try again, by all means, try again. I do not like your odds, but I want people to be happy and have the things they want. I wish you both well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:34 PM on October 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
Loving someone does not mean it works or even that it could work. It certainly doesn't mean you are morally obligated to do a ton of work to fix a thing you feel is over, that did not work for either of you.
Give yourself permission to consider that it feels like the end because it is the end. If you make space for that idea and you still want to try again, by all means, try again. I do not like your odds, but I want people to be happy and have the things they want. I wish you both well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:34 PM on October 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
If you guys have hit this point after only two years, end it now and consider yourself lucky for realizing so quickly that it's not working.
It will suck for a while, but you'll be amazed how much better you'll feel after it sinks in that bi-weekly screaming matches are Not Normal.
posted by ook at 1:35 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
It will suck for a while, but you'll be amazed how much better you'll feel after it sinks in that bi-weekly screaming matches are Not Normal.
posted by ook at 1:35 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
In my experience, I had some periods of "is this over? am I done?" before I realized I am 100000% done with my relationship/marriage. There was no doubt in my mind.
That said, maybe listening to the inner voice earlier would have saved me a lot of grief. I have no way of knowing.
Additionally, it sounds like you may have some trauma / the last fight put you over the edge, and you should probably consult a therapist and/or work on self care right now. You don't have to tell your friends and family "why" you are having a bad time right now, but please lean on them. "I'm having a hard time right now and could use some XYZ" is a perfectly reasonable request.
posted by love2potato at 1:42 PM on October 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
That said, maybe listening to the inner voice earlier would have saved me a lot of grief. I have no way of knowing.
Additionally, it sounds like you may have some trauma / the last fight put you over the edge, and you should probably consult a therapist and/or work on self care right now. You don't have to tell your friends and family "why" you are having a bad time right now, but please lean on them. "I'm having a hard time right now and could use some XYZ" is a perfectly reasonable request.
posted by love2potato at 1:42 PM on October 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I will not fight anymore. Period. If there is a problem, let's work it out, if it can be worked out.
Some people like to fight. Having been that person, I understand it. But I absolutely will not play anymore. It is a game, and a foolish one.
If I were to have someone screaming at me they would soon be screaming at my back, as I leave.
If she won't stop playing, I cannot recommend strongly enough you leaving. It will very likely be difficult for her to stop playing; it might be that losing the relationship you two shared will help teach her.
You deserve better. Walk if she won't change.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:44 PM on October 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
Some people like to fight. Having been that person, I understand it. But I absolutely will not play anymore. It is a game, and a foolish one.
If I were to have someone screaming at me they would soon be screaming at my back, as I leave.
If she won't stop playing, I cannot recommend strongly enough you leaving. It will very likely be difficult for her to stop playing; it might be that losing the relationship you two shared will help teach her.
You deserve better. Walk if she won't change.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:44 PM on October 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I had some similar stuff in my childhood, and what I've come to realize as an adult is that people who haven't gone through this simply don't realize how triggering and downright threatening that behavior feels to someone who experienced it as a child. An analogy: Imagine your wife goes around patting people on the shoulder. It's a thing people do. For most people, it doesn't even register that it's happening. But now imagine she pats someone on the shoulder who broke their clavicle two days ago. Much different reaction, huh? That's how you are, but with screaming instead of patting on the shoulder. Your reaction is heightened, and she needs to take your heightened sensitivity into account.
You need to make it clear to her that screaming at you does not have the effect she thinks it does. She is not simply expressing displeasure. She is causing you pain. There are plenty of other ways for her to express displeasure, and you should be clear that the ones that don't trigger you are still on the table. She could talk to you calmly or write you a letter about what you did to set her off; she could go sit in her room alone for a bit; she could call a girlfriend and bitch about you; she could stop doing some of her share of the household chores, even. But make it clear that screaming at you is not going to be an option going forward. If she continues to scream, there are two possible explanations: either she is intentionally being abusive, or she doesn't care about you or the relationship enough to realize she's being abusive.
If you think she's trying and it's just too hard for her to overcome past habits, you could suggest therapy (not couples counseling, solo for her), but that's a suggestion that's somewhat difficult to deliver in situations like these.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:48 PM on October 15, 2021 [15 favorites]
You need to make it clear to her that screaming at you does not have the effect she thinks it does. She is not simply expressing displeasure. She is causing you pain. There are plenty of other ways for her to express displeasure, and you should be clear that the ones that don't trigger you are still on the table. She could talk to you calmly or write you a letter about what you did to set her off; she could go sit in her room alone for a bit; she could call a girlfriend and bitch about you; she could stop doing some of her share of the household chores, even. But make it clear that screaming at you is not going to be an option going forward. If she continues to scream, there are two possible explanations: either she is intentionally being abusive, or she doesn't care about you or the relationship enough to realize she's being abusive.
If you think she's trying and it's just too hard for her to overcome past habits, you could suggest therapy (not couples counseling, solo for her), but that's a suggestion that's somewhat difficult to deliver in situations like these.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:48 PM on October 15, 2021 [15 favorites]
If you feel like the fighting is a 2 way street, then it's worth it to try to talk to her about this and work together on strategies for backing out of fights as they're starting. If you find the right counselor then you'll have a neutral venue where you can both commit to doing better together.
If you feel like the fighting is something that's happening TO you that you're merely responding to then getting out and away from that ASAP is critical.
posted by bleep at 1:49 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
If you feel like the fighting is something that's happening TO you that you're merely responding to then getting out and away from that ASAP is critical.
posted by bleep at 1:49 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Although as soon as I posted that I am also second guessing myself. It might be worth it to work on it with her, but that's only if she's fully invested in fixing it, and you don't have to wait around or endure any more screaming to find out.
posted by bleep at 1:58 PM on October 15, 2021
posted by bleep at 1:58 PM on October 15, 2021
Yes, you can absolutely run out of patience for this behavior and just be done.
It is also possible to be exhausted and frustrated and feel done right now and change your mind with some support and show of good-faith intent from your partner that they are going to treat this like the emergency it has now become.
But you can just be done, if that's where you find yourself.
I know that there's some cultural variances here, but screaming shouldn't ever be okay and it's not something you have to take responsibility for. You shouldn't have to be "perfect" to not get screamed at or belittled. She needs to learn to manage her behavior like a grown-ass adult, and take responsibility for whatever needs to happen to make that possible.
It is also possible for you to decide to take a potentially-temporary break to work on your own recovery from this abuse, while she goes on and takes care of her problem, and you can check back in sometime later with yourself first and then with her and see whether your retreat was a time in which you made peace with leaving or re-discovered the motivation to stay.
I think most of the time, what I've seen from friends going through this, is that the space makes it possible to realize how done you are. That you don't want to go back. Every once in a while, though, people do sort it out and re-forge a relationship that actually works.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:01 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
It is also possible to be exhausted and frustrated and feel done right now and change your mind with some support and show of good-faith intent from your partner that they are going to treat this like the emergency it has now become.
But you can just be done, if that's where you find yourself.
I know that there's some cultural variances here, but screaming shouldn't ever be okay and it's not something you have to take responsibility for. You shouldn't have to be "perfect" to not get screamed at or belittled. She needs to learn to manage her behavior like a grown-ass adult, and take responsibility for whatever needs to happen to make that possible.
It is also possible for you to decide to take a potentially-temporary break to work on your own recovery from this abuse, while she goes on and takes care of her problem, and you can check back in sometime later with yourself first and then with her and see whether your retreat was a time in which you made peace with leaving or re-discovered the motivation to stay.
I think most of the time, what I've seen from friends going through this, is that the space makes it possible to realize how done you are. That you don't want to go back. Every once in a while, though, people do sort it out and re-forge a relationship that actually works.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:01 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I've definitely done things that have contributed to her stress level, which makes the screaming more likely.
I grew up in a screaming house and I agree, it can be pretty hard to unlearn a wincing feeling towards screaming. At least that is true for me, other people just grow up to be screamers and.or people who are not as bent out of shape by screaming. It's funny, I am a person who doesn't tolerate screaming in a relationship (I do not yell unless someone is in danger, I refuse to be yelled at - though sometimes me and my partner can be "sharp" with each other) but my sister who grew up in the same house, frequently describes conflict talking (i.e. without raises voices) as screaming and I think this is her response to it. That is, I've been in situations where I can see an angry person not screaming but it feels like screaming to her and she'll report it as screaming.
And, honestly, I'm really on team "You can't control your feelings but you can control how you act on those feelings" which is true for most neurotypical people and even most neuroatypical people you know. So if your wife really wants to work on this I suggest both therapy for you but also couples therapy (if you feel she's not abusive) and Step One has to be "No more screaming" Now part of this will be you having a "Nope I'm serious" reaction to her screaming where you leave the room or even the house if she won't stop screaming. This is hard.
And also, yeah, it just may be that this is too little too late from her and you are kind of done. I'm usually not the one who is "Kind of done" in my relationships but I've definitely been that way a few times and when I'm done I am D O N E done. It's okay to be done. It's also okay to try but put tight boundaries around that so that you're only not-done if something actually changes not just your wife makes noises and then just keeps doing the not-okay thing.
posted by jessamyn at 2:08 PM on October 15, 2021 [19 favorites]
I grew up in a screaming house and I agree, it can be pretty hard to unlearn a wincing feeling towards screaming. At least that is true for me, other people just grow up to be screamers and.or people who are not as bent out of shape by screaming. It's funny, I am a person who doesn't tolerate screaming in a relationship (I do not yell unless someone is in danger, I refuse to be yelled at - though sometimes me and my partner can be "sharp" with each other) but my sister who grew up in the same house, frequently describes conflict talking (i.e. without raises voices) as screaming and I think this is her response to it. That is, I've been in situations where I can see an angry person not screaming but it feels like screaming to her and she'll report it as screaming.
And, honestly, I'm really on team "You can't control your feelings but you can control how you act on those feelings" which is true for most neurotypical people and even most neuroatypical people you know. So if your wife really wants to work on this I suggest both therapy for you but also couples therapy (if you feel she's not abusive) and Step One has to be "No more screaming" Now part of this will be you having a "Nope I'm serious" reaction to her screaming where you leave the room or even the house if she won't stop screaming. This is hard.
And also, yeah, it just may be that this is too little too late from her and you are kind of done. I'm usually not the one who is "Kind of done" in my relationships but I've definitely been that way a few times and when I'm done I am D O N E done. It's okay to be done. It's also okay to try but put tight boundaries around that so that you're only not-done if something actually changes not just your wife makes noises and then just keeps doing the not-okay thing.
posted by jessamyn at 2:08 PM on October 15, 2021 [19 favorites]
It is 100% ok for you to be over this relationship. You're not required to try to salvage a life with someone who's constantly screaming at you. In fact, if you were to ask this question anonymously and say "husband" instead of "wife" I absolutely guarantee that this thread would be full of people telling you that you need to leave immediately and offering you resources for domestic abuse.
Lots of times when people ask these kinds of questions they include a whole bunch of qualifying information about what's great about the relationship and why they don't want to leave. You haven't included any of that. I suspect that you will be happier if you aren't with this person.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:09 PM on October 15, 2021 [26 favorites]
Lots of times when people ask these kinds of questions they include a whole bunch of qualifying information about what's great about the relationship and why they don't want to leave. You haven't included any of that. I suspect that you will be happier if you aren't with this person.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:09 PM on October 15, 2021 [26 favorites]
I came from a screaming family and was a screaming partner. I hurt my partner really badly. I justified my behaviour because it was normal to me. By the time I realised this was going to end the relationship, and was desperate to change, it was too late. I had indeed broken her heart. I am sorry about it to this day, many years later, and wished I could have made the change I have since made sooner so as not to have hurt her and not to have lost her as my partner. But I feel better that I chose to end things when I realised it was too late, than to have stayed and carried on hurting her with my behaviour.
If your partner is at all invested in salvaging this relationship they need to be showing that they have internalised that yelling is wrong and not ok in any relationship. They need to be taking active steps to mend what has been messed up in them from their own background. They need to be saying to you that they want to never yell at you again, and be trying as humanly best they can to do that. They need to not be saying "I feel so bad for yelling at you and hurting you! I wish I could stop!", and still yelling at you. And most importantly they need to not be attempting to cope with the pain of this process by making it your responsibility to nurse them through it. It is horribly painful, and might be too much for the relationship to handle. I'm sorry.
posted by Balthamos at 2:17 PM on October 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
If your partner is at all invested in salvaging this relationship they need to be showing that they have internalised that yelling is wrong and not ok in any relationship. They need to be taking active steps to mend what has been messed up in them from their own background. They need to be saying to you that they want to never yell at you again, and be trying as humanly best they can to do that. They need to not be saying "I feel so bad for yelling at you and hurting you! I wish I could stop!", and still yelling at you. And most importantly they need to not be attempting to cope with the pain of this process by making it your responsibility to nurse them through it. It is horribly painful, and might be too much for the relationship to handle. I'm sorry.
posted by Balthamos at 2:17 PM on October 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
It sounds like you’ve waited too long to deal with it which means what could have been a bruise is becoming an abscess.
It’s worth recognizing your part in that dynamic:
as you say sometimes you do ____ that she finds upsetting,
it’s likely that she tries to compromise or communicate in positive ways before she gets to the point of screaming but you don’t fix whatever it was,
then she finally screams,
Then you get really upset about the screaming and she’s probably still upset about the trigger issue... but it sounds like you both bury it instead of discussing it
And neither of you seem to be repairing the damage you cause at each point in this cycle.
til now you’re finally at the breaking point and debating splitting up.
If that sounds accurate, then it’s important to realize the problem isn’t actually screaming... the screaming is a symptom of a massive and mutual problem in not listening to each other, avoiding conflict until it’s explosive, and not apologizing and repairing after a rift. The cure is therapy for both of you, together and separately! I think if you both really commit to communicating more respectfully, it’s likely you can repair the damage.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:56 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
It’s worth recognizing your part in that dynamic:
as you say sometimes you do ____ that she finds upsetting,
it’s likely that she tries to compromise or communicate in positive ways before she gets to the point of screaming but you don’t fix whatever it was,
then she finally screams,
Then you get really upset about the screaming and she’s probably still upset about the trigger issue... but it sounds like you both bury it instead of discussing it
And neither of you seem to be repairing the damage you cause at each point in this cycle.
til now you’re finally at the breaking point and debating splitting up.
If that sounds accurate, then it’s important to realize the problem isn’t actually screaming... the screaming is a symptom of a massive and mutual problem in not listening to each other, avoiding conflict until it’s explosive, and not apologizing and repairing after a rift. The cure is therapy for both of you, together and separately! I think if you both really commit to communicating more respectfully, it’s likely you can repair the damage.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:56 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
Nah, it's not a mutual problem, and it's not one you're to blame for - you don't deserve to be screamed at, and I don't see how you'd address any mutual communication issues while being screamed at. I'd be careful about deciding that "Actually, this is my fault, and I just fixed myself, they'd stop screaming at me".
posted by sagc at 3:02 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 3:02 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
I was in a situation like that for 20 years. Guess I’m a slow learner. People deploying that level of abuse cannot be fixed. They can only be left.
posted by charris5005 at 3:22 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by charris5005 at 3:22 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I know people with BPD and CPTSD who went through intense DBT therapy and really changed the way they behaved. Some people who grew up with no help with emotional regulation (and were usually abused themselves) truly don’t know where to start with breaking their bad habits and meltdowns and lashing out. People who have never known a day without reeling from anxiety and instability can’t always just ‘stop’ how they have historically reacted to emotional triggers.
This is not to say they arent responsible for their behavior, but sometimes it’s literally impossible without serious, intense, targeted therapy. If she is going to go through a program like that and is committed to changing and does change, I think there is hope. But if you want things to be done and don’t want the uncertainty of that, or dont want to lose one more day of your life dealing with any of this, then yeah let it end. But if you see something in her that makes you want to give it a concrete amount of time to see if she learns new coping mechanisms and distress tolerance methods and things like that, then maybe things can change. But it’s difficult stuff. Good luck.
posted by asimplemouse at 4:12 PM on October 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
This is not to say they arent responsible for their behavior, but sometimes it’s literally impossible without serious, intense, targeted therapy. If she is going to go through a program like that and is committed to changing and does change, I think there is hope. But if you want things to be done and don’t want the uncertainty of that, or dont want to lose one more day of your life dealing with any of this, then yeah let it end. But if you see something in her that makes you want to give it a concrete amount of time to see if she learns new coping mechanisms and distress tolerance methods and things like that, then maybe things can change. But it’s difficult stuff. Good luck.
posted by asimplemouse at 4:12 PM on October 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
To answer only the question you asked: I have had it go both ways. I have had relationships where I reached Nope, I’m done and never looked back and it was a great choice. I’ve had one where I reached that point, and we both put in the work and are insanely over the moon happy and in love again and still. The difference was 100% that both of us put in massive amounts of work *willingly* and with enthusiasm. Both of us were absolutely committed to no longer playing out our patterns and made that happen. In the relationships where I hit my Nope Done and walked away, either the person I was with was only making a show of trying to change or wasn’t invested in that change on a personal level. Absolutely no one is going to be a better judge of that than you are, and I want to encourage you to really truly trust yourself about that. It’s also entirely possible that it really is too late and you have reached a point of no return where regardless of changes you are no longer interested, and that’s ok! Having the clarity to know that is a gift, and you are allowed to know that and be confident in yourself about it.
If you aren’t ready to jump to a divorce lawyer, seeking out someone who does marital counseling to ask them about next steps in the process is a (usually) less costly way to start getting your ducks in line. You can go by yourself and explain that you aren’t interested in reconciling but would like to know what next steps are so you are prepared.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:20 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
If you aren’t ready to jump to a divorce lawyer, seeking out someone who does marital counseling to ask them about next steps in the process is a (usually) less costly way to start getting your ducks in line. You can go by yourself and explain that you aren’t interested in reconciling but would like to know what next steps are so you are prepared.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:20 PM on October 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
I grew up with a yeller in the fam and as an adult I can't tolerate any sort of screaming or berating. Not from partners, not from bosses, not from random guys on the street. It is not okay with me. Even one incident triggers hypervigilance that lasts for days. And I have pretty good emotional tools for dealing with unpleasant stuff!
I had a partner who knew this and one day, after being together for a year, they snapped at me. Launched into an uncharacteristic and awful tirade I did not deserve in any way. I froze at first then gathered myself up enough to say "Stop. You're hurting my feelings." They did stop, but the damage was done. I was unable to feel safe again and I broke up with them a few weeks later.
I think we could have salvaged our relationship if they had taken full responsibility for their actions, but they didn't. "Sorry" wasn't enough. I needed them to understand why I was hurt, why they had behaved that way, and tell me what they would do to make sure it never happened again. They couldn't do that. Do I understand why? Sure. I know them and I know their trauma. If I had stayed, I sincerely doubt they would have yelled twice. I needed more anyway.
My ex isn't an awful person, even if they did an awful thing. Our year up until that moment was one of my happiest, and I felt loved, trusted and respected on a deep level. But something shifted that day, and it's okay that I didn't want to repair it. You can leave for any reason.
posted by lloquat at 4:29 PM on October 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
I had a partner who knew this and one day, after being together for a year, they snapped at me. Launched into an uncharacteristic and awful tirade I did not deserve in any way. I froze at first then gathered myself up enough to say "Stop. You're hurting my feelings." They did stop, but the damage was done. I was unable to feel safe again and I broke up with them a few weeks later.
I think we could have salvaged our relationship if they had taken full responsibility for their actions, but they didn't. "Sorry" wasn't enough. I needed them to understand why I was hurt, why they had behaved that way, and tell me what they would do to make sure it never happened again. They couldn't do that. Do I understand why? Sure. I know them and I know their trauma. If I had stayed, I sincerely doubt they would have yelled twice. I needed more anyway.
My ex isn't an awful person, even if they did an awful thing. Our year up until that moment was one of my happiest, and I felt loved, trusted and respected on a deep level. But something shifted that day, and it's okay that I didn't want to repair it. You can leave for any reason.
posted by lloquat at 4:29 PM on October 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
Not a therapist, but it sounds like you may be experiencing dissociation as a response to the trauma that's been dredged up. Also, when I've experienced this sort of thing in cycles, it's been part of an anxious-avoidant dance.
posted by cogat at 8:54 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cogat at 8:54 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Does she scream and get into fights like that at work or with other people? Or is she capable of recognising limits and control and is choosing not to do that with you?
If it’s consistent in all her relationships, then a) maybe you two are just not compatible as sad as that may be, or b) with a lot of therapy and work she can commit to helping herself change and give you space while she works on herself.
If it’s you she’s screaming at, don’t believe that somehow you alone cause this level of yelling because you’re particularly apt at triggering her, or - an argument I heard and foolishly believed - that she trusts and feels so close to you that she is only vulnerable and ‘honest’ about her angry feelings with you. Leave and get a decent lawyer and your own therapy, if it’s just you because it won’t get better.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:58 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
If it’s consistent in all her relationships, then a) maybe you two are just not compatible as sad as that may be, or b) with a lot of therapy and work she can commit to helping herself change and give you space while she works on herself.
If it’s you she’s screaming at, don’t believe that somehow you alone cause this level of yelling because you’re particularly apt at triggering her, or - an argument I heard and foolishly believed - that she trusts and feels so close to you that she is only vulnerable and ‘honest’ about her angry feelings with you. Leave and get a decent lawyer and your own therapy, if it’s just you because it won’t get better.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:58 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
(with reference to your previous question, forgetfulness can be a symptom of dissociation)
posted by cogat at 9:01 PM on October 15, 2021
posted by cogat at 9:01 PM on October 15, 2021
Also if you are done - I take marriage seriously, but I think commitment is not imprisonment. If you feel done, you can leave. You do not need to justify to yourself or her beyond that you don’t want to be married to her any longer. You still have to behave ethically and decently, but that means a fair divorce and respectful communication, not slowly dying inside a marriage to someone you don’t love.
You don’t have to know why or meet some level of bad enough. Wanting to leave is enough.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:02 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
You don’t have to know why or meet some level of bad enough. Wanting to leave is enough.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:02 PM on October 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Back with a bit more.
My teacher on this piece -- a girl who married me -- I'd have given anything for her to have left before she was done. Because only after she left did I see the game I'd been running. Only after she left was I willing to do anything to make it right.
It was a brutally hard lesson.
I remember a couple of conversations we had, after she'd gotten to the other side, and I'm saying "I love you. I'm so, so sorry for how I've acted. I truly am. I love you with all my damn dumb heart." And her response "I love you, too, and I wish nothing but the best for you."
She'd heard me say those words before. They were lies. But after a taste of her not being with me, and, amazingly, somehow coming to see who I'd been in that relationship, I absolutely would have made whatever changes needed made.
Those are bold words -- I am an alcoholic, and a heavily drinking alcoholic in those years of my life, and I know that alcoholism can slow growth, or prevent it.
Any time I am close to anyone who is yelling at their partner, I'm totally straight with them. "If it's that bad, leave. Otherwise, grow up. Find what needs changed and change it. Or leave."
And then I give them the low-down "These words you say, it's very possible that what happened to me will happen to you. Which is that those cruel words I spat at her rang in my ears for long, long years."
I literally could not believe what an asshole I'd been. And only after she'd reached the point of being done was I able to see that. Truth be told, it's good that I was drinking and drugging then, and drinking and drugging to the level I was. Because I needed every drink I could slam down my throat to ease the burn, the remorse I carried, and the hurt of losing her.
Drinking eased the hurt some, drinking enabled me to stay alive another five or six years, enabled me to stay alive long enough til I could get to the grace that was given me, that of a sober life. I realize that this won't make sense to many people, but lots of alcoholics know exactly what I'm saying. If you're not an alcoholic there is no way for you to possibly understand what a drink gives us. Yes, obviously, it's taking away a lot also. But it kept me alive, staggering blindly, smacking into walls, kept me alive long enough to get broken enough to accept the grace when it was given.
Anyways. I tell people to leave or change. People who are getting yelled at, I find out if there is enough love left to be patient, to see if the screamer is willing -- or able, both I guess -- willing and able to stop, once they find out what it's like for them to be alone with their hurt.
If you've got enough love left, back away, tell her you're done with the game. You've absolutely got to mean it; they'll feel it. Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe you've enough love left to be patient as you stand back, maybe your wife will see herself, as I was able to see myself, maybe it can work. I'd give it a coin toss at best, 50 50.
I wish you both sensible love. And I damn sure wish you luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
My teacher on this piece -- a girl who married me -- I'd have given anything for her to have left before she was done. Because only after she left did I see the game I'd been running. Only after she left was I willing to do anything to make it right.
It was a brutally hard lesson.
I remember a couple of conversations we had, after she'd gotten to the other side, and I'm saying "I love you. I'm so, so sorry for how I've acted. I truly am. I love you with all my damn dumb heart." And her response "I love you, too, and I wish nothing but the best for you."
She'd heard me say those words before. They were lies. But after a taste of her not being with me, and, amazingly, somehow coming to see who I'd been in that relationship, I absolutely would have made whatever changes needed made.
Those are bold words -- I am an alcoholic, and a heavily drinking alcoholic in those years of my life, and I know that alcoholism can slow growth, or prevent it.
Any time I am close to anyone who is yelling at their partner, I'm totally straight with them. "If it's that bad, leave. Otherwise, grow up. Find what needs changed and change it. Or leave."
And then I give them the low-down "These words you say, it's very possible that what happened to me will happen to you. Which is that those cruel words I spat at her rang in my ears for long, long years."
I literally could not believe what an asshole I'd been. And only after she'd reached the point of being done was I able to see that. Truth be told, it's good that I was drinking and drugging then, and drinking and drugging to the level I was. Because I needed every drink I could slam down my throat to ease the burn, the remorse I carried, and the hurt of losing her.
Drinking eased the hurt some, drinking enabled me to stay alive another five or six years, enabled me to stay alive long enough til I could get to the grace that was given me, that of a sober life. I realize that this won't make sense to many people, but lots of alcoholics know exactly what I'm saying. If you're not an alcoholic there is no way for you to possibly understand what a drink gives us. Yes, obviously, it's taking away a lot also. But it kept me alive, staggering blindly, smacking into walls, kept me alive long enough to get broken enough to accept the grace when it was given.
Anyways. I tell people to leave or change. People who are getting yelled at, I find out if there is enough love left to be patient, to see if the screamer is willing -- or able, both I guess -- willing and able to stop, once they find out what it's like for them to be alone with their hurt.
If you've got enough love left, back away, tell her you're done with the game. You've absolutely got to mean it; they'll feel it. Maybe you'll get lucky, maybe you've enough love left to be patient as you stand back, maybe your wife will see herself, as I was able to see myself, maybe it can work. I'd give it a coin toss at best, 50 50.
I wish you both sensible love. And I damn sure wish you luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [12 favorites]
No, your marriage is not necessarily done. There is an easy path and the hard path. If you take the easy path, in which you focus on how her screaming makes you feel and center your own emotions in your decisions, then it really is done, because you're basically giving up on the possibility of taking her side in these arguments. If you take the hard path, maybe not.
You said yourself that you are doing things that make her life more stressful and this causes her to scream at you So the question for me here is .... Why are you doing these things?
When she raises an issue like this, do you hear her? Do you take on her complaints, do you take her side, do you change, and stop doing the thing that hurts her, and start doing something different instead?
Either you are doing the right things here and she still screams at you, which means the screaming is not about you, in which case maybe you could extend her some compassion and set your own reactions aside and help her work through what's bothering her. Or, you are not doing the right things, and you're shifting the frame of discussion away from your actions and onto her tone, in which case, you should absolutely stop doing that and absolutely set your emotions aside.
It's the fact that admit you're causing some of the issues here that makes me say this. You haven't said that you've stopped adding stress to her life.
You want to save your marriage, try that.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:21 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
You said yourself that you are doing things that make her life more stressful and this causes her to scream at you So the question for me here is .... Why are you doing these things?
When she raises an issue like this, do you hear her? Do you take on her complaints, do you take her side, do you change, and stop doing the thing that hurts her, and start doing something different instead?
Either you are doing the right things here and she still screams at you, which means the screaming is not about you, in which case maybe you could extend her some compassion and set your own reactions aside and help her work through what's bothering her. Or, you are not doing the right things, and you're shifting the frame of discussion away from your actions and onto her tone, in which case, you should absolutely stop doing that and absolutely set your emotions aside.
It's the fact that admit you're causing some of the issues here that makes me say this. You haven't said that you've stopped adding stress to her life.
You want to save your marriage, try that.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:21 PM on October 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't understand why so many answers are complicating this the way they are. Yes, absolutely -- it is completely possible that you are just done. I would be. You can find a relationship where nobody yells at you pretty much ever. Certain events can change how you see someone in a way that causes you to fall out of love with them. If you do stay, maybe get a therapist who can help you be clear about your boundaries and what kind of behavior you'll accept. This stuff about you causing her stress ... We all have stress. It's her job to deal with stress appropriately.
posted by slidell at 10:55 PM on October 15, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by slidell at 10:55 PM on October 15, 2021 [11 favorites]
I have never yelled at my partner of over 20 years. I yelled at my kid once; it was a safety issue while I was on crutches, and I apologized as soon as the danger was over, and demonstrated that apology by restructuring routines so that he couldn’t be dangerous in that way again.
You are permitted to have a shouting-free life, to not be constantly waiting for a slip (even if that slip never comes.)
It’s okay to be done, and also okay to say to your wife that you aren’t sure if coming back from this is possible, which seem to be your honest feelings at this moment. It’s okay to still be processing two years of regular adrenaline spikes.
posted by tchemgrrl at 4:13 AM on October 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
You are permitted to have a shouting-free life, to not be constantly waiting for a slip (even if that slip never comes.)
It’s okay to be done, and also okay to say to your wife that you aren’t sure if coming back from this is possible, which seem to be your honest feelings at this moment. It’s okay to still be processing two years of regular adrenaline spikes.
posted by tchemgrrl at 4:13 AM on October 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I was at a point where I wondered whether I was just "done", seemingly for similar reasons to you, and this question miraculously came up on AskMe at the time. Although there's a gender shift (and note that with that shift most of the responses are calling it abuse and recommend leaving instead of fixing yourself as is happening often in this thread), if you see yourself in what was written in the question, you're probably legitimately done, and rightfully so. If your "contribution" to the screaming is something like not contributing to the household, or getting drunk with your buddies, absolutely stop doing that and see if you can work things out, but if your issue is any flavor of "I fail to adequately manage my spouse's emotional states for them" then their treatment of you is more on the abuse spectrum and you're being gaslit. The last comment in that linked thread is particularly resonant for me - do you feel like you have to navigate a minefield, but the mine locations keep changing?
posted by LionIndex at 8:25 AM on October 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 8:25 AM on October 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
Most stuff has been covered by other people here. But:
You say you had a childhood with aggression/stressors/trauma, and that being yelled at triggers a trauma-response from you (which is fully valid). I want to bring up the potential that there is a chance that you have some unworked through earlier trauma which is what has brought you to a point where you gravitate towards situations/people that replicate that trauma because this is what you know, this is the emotional space where your identity formed.
When you and your wife were dating, can you evaluate the past and see if there were any red flags for her current behavior, IE, the screaming?
What did you make of these red flags at the time?
Have you dated anyone else with red flags (or had friendships similar to) such as these?
Do these remind you of any specific earlier events in life-- formative ones-- even tangentially?
We often seek out partnerships with people that remind us of our early caregivers (in a not necessarily gendered way), seeking to "fix" or "correct" those patterns in new relationships, thus giving us "mastery" over the past as well as giving us a sense of worthiness that was damaged when the original abuse occurred. If we can "fix" a situation that reminds us of our past trauma, we then demonstrate/prove our "worthiness" and self-empowerment. However, this path actually rarely ever does work.
What most people eventually learn is to go around people/events that trigger these primitive early responses because there is an acknowledgement of the fact that people can't change for us, no matter how much they abuse/berate us so we ought to simply seek out people who are well-regulated and do not trigger us in this way-- of which there are millions. Getting to the root of this pattern for yourself as a unique individual willing to put the work into yourself is how one avoids relationships such as this.
Which no, most people will not tolerate, unless they truly have no other option.
Similarly, at least for myself, I got myself in some unhealthy relationships (all genders) because I had connected, from a young age, fear with excitement. So, I did not understand that when I felt anxious or scared of someone, I was reading it as, wow this person is so exciting. Now, I understand that I feel actual fear, anxiety, etc and these are good indicators to at the very least take it SUPER slow with getting close to that person. Generally, I just avoid these types altogether now if I have this instinct. Good luck. You don't deserve to live your precious, wild life getting yelled at.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:34 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
You say you had a childhood with aggression/stressors/trauma, and that being yelled at triggers a trauma-response from you (which is fully valid). I want to bring up the potential that there is a chance that you have some unworked through earlier trauma which is what has brought you to a point where you gravitate towards situations/people that replicate that trauma because this is what you know, this is the emotional space where your identity formed.
When you and your wife were dating, can you evaluate the past and see if there were any red flags for her current behavior, IE, the screaming?
What did you make of these red flags at the time?
Have you dated anyone else with red flags (or had friendships similar to) such as these?
Do these remind you of any specific earlier events in life-- formative ones-- even tangentially?
We often seek out partnerships with people that remind us of our early caregivers (in a not necessarily gendered way), seeking to "fix" or "correct" those patterns in new relationships, thus giving us "mastery" over the past as well as giving us a sense of worthiness that was damaged when the original abuse occurred. If we can "fix" a situation that reminds us of our past trauma, we then demonstrate/prove our "worthiness" and self-empowerment. However, this path actually rarely ever does work.
What most people eventually learn is to go around people/events that trigger these primitive early responses because there is an acknowledgement of the fact that people can't change for us, no matter how much they abuse/berate us so we ought to simply seek out people who are well-regulated and do not trigger us in this way-- of which there are millions. Getting to the root of this pattern for yourself as a unique individual willing to put the work into yourself is how one avoids relationships such as this.
Which no, most people will not tolerate, unless they truly have no other option.
Similarly, at least for myself, I got myself in some unhealthy relationships (all genders) because I had connected, from a young age, fear with excitement. So, I did not understand that when I felt anxious or scared of someone, I was reading it as, wow this person is so exciting. Now, I understand that I feel actual fear, anxiety, etc and these are good indicators to at the very least take it SUPER slow with getting close to that person. Generally, I just avoid these types altogether now if I have this instinct. Good luck. You don't deserve to live your precious, wild life getting yelled at.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:34 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Of course your heart can be irretrievably broken by a partner. Happens all the time.
I think the deciding factor here is what your partner is yelling. If she is yelling some variation on "Leave me alone! Go away! Shut up! Stop it! I can't deal with you right now!" - something you can test by leaving the room to see if that makes her stop - then you can stay, because you have a way of stopping her from yelling at you, and even a way of keeping her from yelling at you in the first place. If she's yelling because she can't get away from you then you can stop the dynamic by stopping what you are doing.
But if she is yelling anything else then YOU are not triggering the yelling and it's entirely up to her to stop it. Make a plan to permanently leave the next time she yells - know who you will go stay with while you apartment hunt, have a bag ready with stuff to take with you, and explain to her that you love her dearly, will wish her well forever, that in fact you love her so much you won't continue to allow her to abusive, as it is a terrible thing for her. Use words like, "We can't live like this," and "This is destroying both of us." and "These things escalate. It's too dangerous for both of us." It's a terrible thing for you too, of course, but you're not doing her any favours sticking around. She's far better off being lonely and sad than being an abusive person. You are also taking away the risk that you will end up mistreating her in return. As long as she is in an unhealthy relationship with you she can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. As long as she is getting away with doing abusive things, she won't have the incentive to stop being that kind of person.
This isn't a small thing, like being forgetful, or disorganized, or struggling to show affection or having different taste in music. It's a big thing because it is actively harmful to you.
If she yells again, leave her.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:00 AM on October 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the deciding factor here is what your partner is yelling. If she is yelling some variation on "Leave me alone! Go away! Shut up! Stop it! I can't deal with you right now!" - something you can test by leaving the room to see if that makes her stop - then you can stay, because you have a way of stopping her from yelling at you, and even a way of keeping her from yelling at you in the first place. If she's yelling because she can't get away from you then you can stop the dynamic by stopping what you are doing.
But if she is yelling anything else then YOU are not triggering the yelling and it's entirely up to her to stop it. Make a plan to permanently leave the next time she yells - know who you will go stay with while you apartment hunt, have a bag ready with stuff to take with you, and explain to her that you love her dearly, will wish her well forever, that in fact you love her so much you won't continue to allow her to abusive, as it is a terrible thing for her. Use words like, "We can't live like this," and "This is destroying both of us." and "These things escalate. It's too dangerous for both of us." It's a terrible thing for you too, of course, but you're not doing her any favours sticking around. She's far better off being lonely and sad than being an abusive person. You are also taking away the risk that you will end up mistreating her in return. As long as she is in an unhealthy relationship with you she can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. As long as she is getting away with doing abusive things, she won't have the incentive to stop being that kind of person.
This isn't a small thing, like being forgetful, or disorganized, or struggling to show affection or having different taste in music. It's a big thing because it is actively harmful to you.
If she yells again, leave her.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:00 AM on October 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
yes, of course you can stop loving someone or wanting to be with them, and it can happen suddenly as well as gradually. if you're sure, you're sure. however,
My wife, after some time away, agrees that things need to change, and has committed to change quite earnestly,
it's a little bit striking that a. the whole business reminds you of formative childhood trauma and b. your feeling of being done forever didn't hit you during or in the aftermath of one of the many, many bad fights. rather, it came when it appears the fights may have stopped and your partner is no longer interested in fighting.
that does not suggest to me that you are wrong to be done. and I am not suggesting to you, or to anyone, that a partner improving means you ought to stay. but it suggests to me that you ought to be careful and analytical when considering what it was that kept you there before and what it was that made you think about leaving now. and what you may or may not be drawn to when or if you look for another partner.
sure, there is such a thing as a delayed reaction and sure, there are plenty of instances of people not feeling safe to leave until they have reason to feel safe. there are also plenty of instances of people seeking out or staying in an abusive dynamic, not because they like it, but because it feels correct even if it does not feel good. "correct" meaning it feels like the kind of pain you are supposed to feel from intimacy. leaving because now that you have quiet space to think, you realize you can't forgive her, is different from leaving because now that you have quiet space to think, you realize that the cycle of calming a furious partner is one of the primary ways you bond and show love, and when you have nothing pressing to forgive and heal you have nothing much else for them either.
obviously this is speculation based on a couple of suggestive paragraphs, and nothing more.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:20 AM on October 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
My wife, after some time away, agrees that things need to change, and has committed to change quite earnestly,
it's a little bit striking that a. the whole business reminds you of formative childhood trauma and b. your feeling of being done forever didn't hit you during or in the aftermath of one of the many, many bad fights. rather, it came when it appears the fights may have stopped and your partner is no longer interested in fighting.
that does not suggest to me that you are wrong to be done. and I am not suggesting to you, or to anyone, that a partner improving means you ought to stay. but it suggests to me that you ought to be careful and analytical when considering what it was that kept you there before and what it was that made you think about leaving now. and what you may or may not be drawn to when or if you look for another partner.
sure, there is such a thing as a delayed reaction and sure, there are plenty of instances of people not feeling safe to leave until they have reason to feel safe. there are also plenty of instances of people seeking out or staying in an abusive dynamic, not because they like it, but because it feels correct even if it does not feel good. "correct" meaning it feels like the kind of pain you are supposed to feel from intimacy. leaving because now that you have quiet space to think, you realize you can't forgive her, is different from leaving because now that you have quiet space to think, you realize that the cycle of calming a furious partner is one of the primary ways you bond and show love, and when you have nothing pressing to forgive and heal you have nothing much else for them either.
obviously this is speculation based on a couple of suggestive paragraphs, and nothing more.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:20 AM on October 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
For all the people saying "if the screaming person were male the advice would be to leave"... well, yeah, because in hetero relationships and in our society, men are socialized to take, even to the point of murdering women who don't please them, and women are socialized to please, even up to the point of being murdered while still desperately trying to please.
When a man screams at a woman he's doing so from a position of greater social power and a lifetime of socialization making him more likely to hold contempt for women in general. His screaming aligns with social forces subjugating the woman so it's more likely he's being an asshole.
When a woman screams at a man, she's screaming DESPITE all the times she was taught to be quiet and pretty and pleasing and tolerate blatant disrespect from men with a smile, starting when she was a toddler. Her screaming is because she's so upset she's willing to climb over the mountain of life experience that's policed her tone and body language since she could sit up independently.
Of course people of any gender can be abusive, and of course not everyone fits neatly into this gender-socialization paradigm - but do we need to pretend that those dynamics don't even exist? They do. And because they do, it's totally reasonable to respond differently to a 1-paragraph vague description based on the genders of the involved parties (and also this is making the assumption that the poster is male).
Plus, there actually ARE flags in this post that point to inequity, like the fact that the poster acknowledges that they trigger the wife, but doesn't explain more, and says that the wife "mimimizes their feelings" while they proceed to minimize the wife's feelings by just referring to them as "the screaming". Those don't really sound like an abused person to me- they sound like someone who's not taking responsibility for their part in an emotional dynamic that aligns with a lot of cis-straight marriages I've seen.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
When a man screams at a woman he's doing so from a position of greater social power and a lifetime of socialization making him more likely to hold contempt for women in general. His screaming aligns with social forces subjugating the woman so it's more likely he's being an asshole.
When a woman screams at a man, she's screaming DESPITE all the times she was taught to be quiet and pretty and pleasing and tolerate blatant disrespect from men with a smile, starting when she was a toddler. Her screaming is because she's so upset she's willing to climb over the mountain of life experience that's policed her tone and body language since she could sit up independently.
Of course people of any gender can be abusive, and of course not everyone fits neatly into this gender-socialization paradigm - but do we need to pretend that those dynamics don't even exist? They do. And because they do, it's totally reasonable to respond differently to a 1-paragraph vague description based on the genders of the involved parties (and also this is making the assumption that the poster is male).
Plus, there actually ARE flags in this post that point to inequity, like the fact that the poster acknowledges that they trigger the wife, but doesn't explain more, and says that the wife "mimimizes their feelings" while they proceed to minimize the wife's feelings by just referring to them as "the screaming". Those don't really sound like an abused person to me- they sound like someone who's not taking responsibility for their part in an emotional dynamic that aligns with a lot of cis-straight marriages I've seen.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
They also sound like someone who's being gaslit.
posted by LionIndex at 6:27 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 6:27 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by parmanparman at 12:54 PM on October 15, 2021