Normal for a doctor's appointment?
December 19, 2021 7:12 AM Subscribe
]Is it normal for a doctor to move a woman's hair out of the way in order to examine her or is that a bit unusual/out of the norm/overly familiar?
I am talking about for an examination of the back. Would a patient normally move her own hair or could a doctor reasonably do it for her, ie. gather it into a fist and move it over one shoulder, without it being unusual or inappropriate? This is not a patient with physical limitations.
I am not upset, but I have long hair and I've never had a doctor touch it before. I'm just wondering what would be typical for an appointment. This is one of those things that is hard to get a sense of so I wonder what you all think.
I am talking about for an examination of the back. Would a patient normally move her own hair or could a doctor reasonably do it for her, ie. gather it into a fist and move it over one shoulder, without it being unusual or inappropriate? This is not a patient with physical limitations.
I am not upset, but I have long hair and I've never had a doctor touch it before. I'm just wondering what would be typical for an appointment. This is one of those things that is hard to get a sense of so I wonder what you all think.
I would think it's not necessarily a problem in itself, but the fact that (I'm assuming) it made you feel uncomfortable might indicate that you noticed other behaviors that made you feel unsafe. Subtle things like lingering eye contact or standing too close, or slightly too familiar manner.
I would reserve judgment but be on my guard.
posted by Zumbador at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would reserve judgment but be on my guard.
posted by Zumbador at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think it sounds normal.
However, I'm going to add this. A number of times in my life someone has touched me in a way that was normal/allowed but that felt weird. I convinced myself that "lots of other people touch your arm and it's no big deal so why are you bothered when this person does it?" and told myself it was nothing and to ignore it. And every single time it has progressed to the person touching me in a way that was unambiguously wrong. If it felt off to you, you can consider it off even if the act of touching/moving hair is not itself inherently alarm-ringing to anyone else or even to you . You could be picking up on something. I would not ignore your feeling.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:21 AM on December 19, 2021 [21 favorites]
However, I'm going to add this. A number of times in my life someone has touched me in a way that was normal/allowed but that felt weird. I convinced myself that "lots of other people touch your arm and it's no big deal so why are you bothered when this person does it?" and told myself it was nothing and to ignore it. And every single time it has progressed to the person touching me in a way that was unambiguously wrong. If it felt off to you, you can consider it off even if the act of touching/moving hair is not itself inherently alarm-ringing to anyone else or even to you . You could be picking up on something. I would not ignore your feeling.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:21 AM on December 19, 2021 [21 favorites]
In my experience as a long haired white woman with no obvious special style to my hair: normal. I don't think it would be ok in all cultural contexts, but in general I think the doctor feels that once you have permission to examine the back, that would include permission to move hair out of the way. It isn't the greatest bedside manner, but I wouldn't consider it to be improper. I think about it in the context of all the other intimate and invasive toughing they have to do, which may make hair seem like no big deal. All that said, if you didn't feel right about it, that's reasonable, and it's ok to ask your doctor to explicitly ask permission for every part of you they touch.
posted by Ausamor at 7:23 AM on December 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 7:23 AM on December 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm sure my doctor has had to move my hair in order to see something on my back. She is very good about narrating what she is doing & giving advance warning. "Ok, now I'm going to X so that I can Y."
If something like this would startle or upset you, I'd suggest letting the doctor know that you'd like them to say something before they touch you. Or say "Let me know when you need me to move my hair out of the way."
If it felt icky/wrong, then I'd consider visiting a different doctor or asking if you can have a nurse in the room during exams (if you can't switch doctors).
posted by belladonna at 7:25 AM on December 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
If something like this would startle or upset you, I'd suggest letting the doctor know that you'd like them to say something before they touch you. Or say "Let me know when you need me to move my hair out of the way."
If it felt icky/wrong, then I'd consider visiting a different doctor or asking if you can have a nurse in the room during exams (if you can't switch doctors).
posted by belladonna at 7:25 AM on December 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm pretty sure I can remember doctors asking me to move my own hair out of the way and can't remember cases of them moving it for me, but I don't think I'd be bothered by them moving it for me with an obvious medical goal in mind if there were no other weird flags during the appointment.
posted by space snail at 7:26 AM on December 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by space snail at 7:26 AM on December 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't have long hair, but every doctor I've seen (in the US) has asked or informed me before doing something. I would expect hair to be similar: "I'm going to move your hair to the side so I can listen to your lungs." OR "Can you move your hair to the side before I listen to your lungs?" I'd find another doctor, because if the one you saw didn't do this, they have bad boundaries or training.
Here is a little more discussion on it suggesting that not all doctors do this, but should.
posted by Toddles at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Here is a little more discussion on it suggesting that not all doctors do this, but should.
posted by Toddles at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
The only doctor who moved my hair without telling me what they were doing is also the one that moved my bra strap without saying anything or having a need too and started rubbing my shoulders. My hair is long and every other doctor has either asked me to move it or checked before they did.
posted by lepus at 7:59 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by lepus at 7:59 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I teach exam skills to healthcare students and wouldn't be surprised by either one of them or their supervising practitioners doing this, but I'd also coach them to (ideally) ask the patient to do it themself or at least narrate what they planned to do ahead of time. That would apply to hair and other body parts, clothing, and any draping like a gown. In a graded session, a student would lose points for not doing so.
posted by teremala at 8:22 AM on December 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by teremala at 8:22 AM on December 19, 2021 [14 favorites]
Remember that doctors will think of bodies as objects to examine and work on, so moving the patient is like moving paper out of the way. When they REALLY forget that there’s people in those bodies then they develop bad bedside manner. If they moved the hair in a bored matter of fact perfunctory way then I wouldn’t think twice but if it was slow and intimate then I’d get the jeebies.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:23 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:23 AM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have medium length hair and went to Costco to pick up new eyeglasses. The technician/sales associate move my hair in order to see the eyeglass band on my ear, though she did tell me that she had to move it first before doing it and she had gloves on.
When I used to see the Dermatologist, he would check my skin and take my top and move it down without saying anything to see if there was any acne on my chest. (No, just my face.)
posted by lawgirl at 8:56 AM on December 19, 2021
When I used to see the Dermatologist, he would check my skin and take my top and move it down without saying anything to see if there was any acne on my chest. (No, just my face.)
posted by lawgirl at 8:56 AM on December 19, 2021
It's not really normal. not everything abnormal is a violation but it's not normal.
it's also a little weird to have an appointment that progresses in a way where it could be camouflaged as normal (I mean: when I go to a general checkup or a specialist who might need to look at my neck/back, I either have my hair up already or I say "should I hold my hair up so you can see?" when they get to that point. but I never need to think about this or plan it because they never have have their hands that close to my head by some surprise trick; they telegraph where they are moving to next and they don't come up that close to me with no discussion or warning. I will say on the doctor's side that it would also be weird to have a patient waiting for a back examination who is just sitting there without moving to pick their own hair up off said back. but that's when they should have said something.
saying something perfunctory before they touch you is entirely rote and universal, it is in no way the product of special sensitivity or trauma awareness or anything like that. good doctors, bad doctors, all doctors: if you're not anesthetized or on a table awaiting an agreed-on procedure they don't touch you without saying something first. if they do, they are either a little weird or a lot dangerous. and I don't even mean dangerous like they might assault you (although), I mean dangerous like they're perfectly comfortable having you feel confused, intimidated, and nervous, and act in a way that enhances this.
it is kind of nonsense to bring in how doctors think about patients. they don't touch you based on the way they think about you; they touch you as they are trained to do. unless.
If you did not feel comfortable saying "Oh, sorry, I can put my hair up, just a second please" when they started fiddling with your hair, that is bad. if you are afraid to say something when something odd is happening because it might be "normal" (so what? if it is, they'll tell you so) that is not a good doctor-patient relationship even if they are a good doctor.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:22 AM on December 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
it's also a little weird to have an appointment that progresses in a way where it could be camouflaged as normal (I mean: when I go to a general checkup or a specialist who might need to look at my neck/back, I either have my hair up already or I say "should I hold my hair up so you can see?" when they get to that point. but I never need to think about this or plan it because they never have have their hands that close to my head by some surprise trick; they telegraph where they are moving to next and they don't come up that close to me with no discussion or warning. I will say on the doctor's side that it would also be weird to have a patient waiting for a back examination who is just sitting there without moving to pick their own hair up off said back. but that's when they should have said something.
saying something perfunctory before they touch you is entirely rote and universal, it is in no way the product of special sensitivity or trauma awareness or anything like that. good doctors, bad doctors, all doctors: if you're not anesthetized or on a table awaiting an agreed-on procedure they don't touch you without saying something first. if they do, they are either a little weird or a lot dangerous. and I don't even mean dangerous like they might assault you (although), I mean dangerous like they're perfectly comfortable having you feel confused, intimidated, and nervous, and act in a way that enhances this.
it is kind of nonsense to bring in how doctors think about patients. they don't touch you based on the way they think about you; they touch you as they are trained to do. unless.
If you did not feel comfortable saying "Oh, sorry, I can put my hair up, just a second please" when they started fiddling with your hair, that is bad. if you are afraid to say something when something odd is happening because it might be "normal" (so what? if it is, they'll tell you so) that is not a good doctor-patient relationship even if they are a good doctor.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:22 AM on December 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Just got out of medical school in 2019. We were trained to either ask before moving or ask the patient to move it. For comparison, to move the left breast to listen to the heart, you just say “Could you lift up?”
posted by 8603 at 11:17 AM on December 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by 8603 at 11:17 AM on December 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
I’ve had a mixture of both when my hair was really long. Both by female and male doctors and PA’s. By itself, it was of no concern. If it was accompanied by other behavior I was uncomfortable with than I would not have seen that doctor/PA again.
posted by ReiFlinx at 11:34 AM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ReiFlinx at 11:34 AM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
In my experience as a long haired white woman with no obvious special style to my hair: normal.
Yeah to me this is well within the range of normal but that doesn't mean it's not okay to not like this or feel a boundary was crossed. I think the standard thing would be to ask.
That said, if there's a back examination and both the patient and the doctor know that, the doctor might have some idea that the patient isn't going to do this if the hair hasn't been moved, and so they would maybe presume they are supposed to? As this comment makes clear, the right thing is to ask,not to presume.
I will say on the doctor's side that it would also be weird to have a patient waiting for a back examination who is just sitting there without moving to pick their own hair up off said back. but that's when they should have said something.
My doctor and I are friends and he is also nearly retirement age and does things that feel more old-fashioned than some and I'd put "touching a patient without being extremely clear what you're doing and making sure things are okay" in that category.
posted by jessamyn at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah to me this is well within the range of normal but that doesn't mean it's not okay to not like this or feel a boundary was crossed. I think the standard thing would be to ask.
That said, if there's a back examination and both the patient and the doctor know that, the doctor might have some idea that the patient isn't going to do this if the hair hasn't been moved, and so they would maybe presume they are supposed to? As this comment makes clear, the right thing is to ask,not to presume.
I will say on the doctor's side that it would also be weird to have a patient waiting for a back examination who is just sitting there without moving to pick their own hair up off said back. but that's when they should have said something.
My doctor and I are friends and he is also nearly retirement age and does things that feel more old-fashioned than some and I'd put "touching a patient without being extremely clear what you're doing and making sure things are okay" in that category.
posted by jessamyn at 1:15 PM on December 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who weighed in :) To clarify, I didn't know he was about to examine my back before he did so, because if I did, I would have moved my hair out of the way. It was kind of an awkward situation.
posted by mintchip at 2:26 PM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by mintchip at 2:26 PM on December 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think it could go either way, depending on all kinds of factors. But if it felt weird to you, it was weird. Trust your gut!!
posted by spindrifter at 5:34 AM on December 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by spindrifter at 5:34 AM on December 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by purenitrous at 7:18 AM on December 19, 2021 [26 favorites]