Fake Vaccine Card..
November 10, 2021 8:59 PM Subscribe
My fiancé is making a fake vaccine card to go to a music event and it bothers me..
I am fully vaccinated and my fiancé hasn’t been vaccinated because she says she’s scared that she will have permanent side effects and doesn’t know what’s in it. I’ve tried to assure her the chances of that happening is very small compared to what could happen if she reacts badly to COVID but she hasn’t been convinced and I’ve respected her fears.
However, now she is attending a music event that is requiring proof of vaccination for attendees and has created a fake vaccine card to be let in. She says that it doesn’t make sense to require a vaccination card to attend when vaccinated people can still get COVID and spread it to everyone so in order to really protect the public the event should be requiring tests instead. That’s her reasoning. It does seem silly when I think about it but I still think it’s wrong. I agree that it doesn’t quite make sense to require proof of vaccination when perhaps testing would make more sense but I also understand I don’t know all the facts and maybe being vaccinated lessens the chances of spreading COVID.
We got in an argument because I said I didn’t want to be a part of it and she can choose to do what she wishes.. just leave me out of it.. but she says that I’m judging her. She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am- but to me it just seems irresponsible and selfish and it’s just something I wouldn’t do. But I also don’t know if that’s warranted because I also don’t quite understand how this would put people in danger if vaccinated people can still get COVID and every attendee should be vaccinated themselves anyway.
Am I being too critical? I don’t know how to feel about this.
I am fully vaccinated and my fiancé hasn’t been vaccinated because she says she’s scared that she will have permanent side effects and doesn’t know what’s in it. I’ve tried to assure her the chances of that happening is very small compared to what could happen if she reacts badly to COVID but she hasn’t been convinced and I’ve respected her fears.
However, now she is attending a music event that is requiring proof of vaccination for attendees and has created a fake vaccine card to be let in. She says that it doesn’t make sense to require a vaccination card to attend when vaccinated people can still get COVID and spread it to everyone so in order to really protect the public the event should be requiring tests instead. That’s her reasoning. It does seem silly when I think about it but I still think it’s wrong. I agree that it doesn’t quite make sense to require proof of vaccination when perhaps testing would make more sense but I also understand I don’t know all the facts and maybe being vaccinated lessens the chances of spreading COVID.
We got in an argument because I said I didn’t want to be a part of it and she can choose to do what she wishes.. just leave me out of it.. but she says that I’m judging her. She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am- but to me it just seems irresponsible and selfish and it’s just something I wouldn’t do. But I also don’t know if that’s warranted because I also don’t quite understand how this would put people in danger if vaccinated people can still get COVID and every attendee should be vaccinated themselves anyway.
Am I being too critical? I don’t know how to feel about this.
You're right to be critical. It's free-riding; what's wrong about the point of view is her wanting to enjoy the benefit that comes from everyone else getting vaccinated, without wanting to contribute to that collective safety herself.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2021 [51 favorites]
She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am-
Would you ask her to wear a seatbelt? Would it bother you if she didn't?
posted by pompomtom at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
Would you ask her to wear a seatbelt? Would it bother you if she didn't?
posted by pompomtom at 9:09 PM on November 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
maybe being vaccinated lessens the chances of spreading COVID.
No “maybe” about it— that’s the point you’re both missing.
She’s free to not get vaccinated but she gives up privileges that go along with it. Hopefully they’re scanning QR codes but I don’t think digital cards are used widely enough yet.
posted by supercres at 9:10 PM on November 10, 2021 [31 favorites]
No “maybe” about it— that’s the point you’re both missing.
She’s free to not get vaccinated but she gives up privileges that go along with it. Hopefully they’re scanning QR codes but I don’t think digital cards are used widely enough yet.
posted by supercres at 9:10 PM on November 10, 2021 [31 favorites]
You are not being too critical. It's vastly irresponsible. Many of the little laws many people break - media piracy, weed, etc - are low impact on other actual humans. This is not one of them.
posted by cobaltnine at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2021 [52 favorites]
posted by cobaltnine at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2021 [52 favorites]
You are not being too critical. It is a moral problem and a serious one. Your fiancé is simply wrong morally.
However, she is also wrong on the facts. Vaccinated people can still get COVID BUT they are less likely to, and when they do get it, the period for which they are shedding virus is shorter. Therefore vaccination does in itself prevent spread, even though it is not a guarantee. You can easily find evidence from reputable sources about this. Here is the very first one I found just now.
A lot of people who don't like the idea of vaccines are seizing on the fact that their protection is not perfect and telling themselves that vaccines are pointless, because obviously that makes them feel more justified in their stance.
Here is a surprising graphic (but check the references, it's real) which shows how vaccines we commonly use for other diseases are also not 100% and in some cases markedly less effective that the common COVID vaccines. They are still very useful when everybody has had their shots!
Honestly, this would be a red flag in a relationship for me. YMMV.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:12 PM on November 10, 2021 [103 favorites]
However, she is also wrong on the facts. Vaccinated people can still get COVID BUT they are less likely to, and when they do get it, the period for which they are shedding virus is shorter. Therefore vaccination does in itself prevent spread, even though it is not a guarantee. You can easily find evidence from reputable sources about this. Here is the very first one I found just now.
A lot of people who don't like the idea of vaccines are seizing on the fact that their protection is not perfect and telling themselves that vaccines are pointless, because obviously that makes them feel more justified in their stance.
Here is a surprising graphic (but check the references, it's real) which shows how vaccines we commonly use for other diseases are also not 100% and in some cases markedly less effective that the common COVID vaccines. They are still very useful when everybody has had their shots!
Honestly, this would be a red flag in a relationship for me. YMMV.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:12 PM on November 10, 2021 [103 favorites]
Whilst it's been kind of a shock to people that vaccinated people can still catch and transmit covid, what's missing from the discourse is how much more likely an unvaccinated person is to catch and transmit covid.
There's also the social aspect of taking up a hospital bed if you get severe covid.
Attending a concert is riskier *for her*- if she were to catch covid from the event.
posted by freethefeet at 9:15 PM on November 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
There's also the social aspect of taking up a hospital bed if you get severe covid.
Attending a concert is riskier *for her*- if she were to catch covid from the event.
posted by freethefeet at 9:15 PM on November 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
“It’s fine if I blow through all stop signs; if everyone else is stopping and driving defensively, they’ll see me coming and I won’t get in car accidents.”
it doesn’t quite make sense to require proof of vaccination when perhaps testing would make more sense
“I’m against gun sale background checks because banning all gun sales would make more sense.”
“I oppose paid parental leave laws because everyone should just get a generous livable UBI.”
posted by supercres at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2021 [41 favorites]
it doesn’t quite make sense to require proof of vaccination when perhaps testing would make more sense
“I’m against gun sale background checks because banning all gun sales would make more sense.”
“I oppose paid parental leave laws because everyone should just get a generous livable UBI.”
posted by supercres at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2021 [41 favorites]
You are judging her. That's fine. She is taking a proven public health initiative and trying to flaunt it illegally. And that is putting HER into danger. It's putting you in danger. It is putting all the people if she gets COVID that she will be in contact with into danger. It is risking her life in a way like drinking and driving risks your life, its dangerous, it's a known danger and maybe it will be okay and maybe it won't, but if it goes wrong it can account for the death of the person or others without ever having any intention of hurting anyone.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:16 PM on November 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
I’m not sure you’re being critical enough. She’s doing some combination of: willful ignorance (plenty of data available about the vaccine’s safety), selfishness (prioritizing her fear over the actual well-being of others), and putting others at risk (she’s more likely to catch/spread COVID—both in general and at this event). None of those are choices I’d respect from my partner.
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:17 PM on November 10, 2021 [77 favorites]
posted by theotherdurassister at 9:17 PM on November 10, 2021 [77 favorites]
This internet stranger would literally, no exaggeration, end a relationship over this.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:23 PM on November 10, 2021 [310 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 9:23 PM on November 10, 2021 [310 favorites]
The long term side effects of Covid have so far been proven to be far worse than any effects shown from the vaccine. The science is easy to find on how effective the vax is. But all of this scientific information is readily available, as we are coming into 2 years of this illness. I am disabled, likely because I had a mild viral illness as a teen, and therefore high risk. There are people who medically cannot get vaccinated, or for whom it is very risky. And the others who choose not to and then choose to lie, continue to go out, with large events, thus putting others at risk, especially people like myself... well. That lack of empathy and care about fellow humans and even their own life is heartbreaking and frustrating. I also say this as a person who has been avoiding any get together and crowds for nearly 2 years. I couldn't even see my friends before I moved out of state.
If they are choosing to not get vaccinated, they can choose to stay home and keep everyone safe and not attend a large event. This isn't like not wearing a seatbelt. This is like driving blindfolded.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:24 PM on November 10, 2021 [48 favorites]
If they are choosing to not get vaccinated, they can choose to stay home and keep everyone safe and not attend a large event. This isn't like not wearing a seatbelt. This is like driving blindfolded.
posted by Crystalinne at 9:24 PM on November 10, 2021 [48 favorites]
Your fiancé is committing a Class D felony. I think you have every right to be concerned.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:24 PM on November 10, 2021 [82 favorites]
posted by yellowcandy at 9:24 PM on November 10, 2021 [82 favorites]
On a related note: this is obviously a big thing in your relationship right now and in the best case, you work through it to a happy conclusion. Good luck! Here is a helpful collection of resources on talking to vaccine-hesitant people. All New Zealand-centric because that's where I live, but the principles apply. As you might guess, you aren't going to get there with a frontal attack using facts and logic. Pick your time, connect, take fiance's fears and concerns seriously, show some respect so you can get some respect. Again, good luck, I hope you can work this out.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:29 PM on November 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:29 PM on November 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
Seconding what Aspersioncast said. I would not remain in a relationship with a person low enough to do that. What she is doing is evil.
No, sorry, "evil" isn't descriptive enough. This is sleazy, dishonest, reckless and unimaginably selfish. Her act combines the most unappealing aspects of: lying about birth control, pretending to be a war veteran and midnight dumping of toxic waste.
posted by wjm at 9:34 PM on November 10, 2021 [55 favorites]
No, sorry, "evil" isn't descriptive enough. This is sleazy, dishonest, reckless and unimaginably selfish. Her act combines the most unappealing aspects of: lying about birth control, pretending to be a war veteran and midnight dumping of toxic waste.
posted by wjm at 9:34 PM on November 10, 2021 [55 favorites]
Is she planning to test before and after, and not go if she has covid, and isolate if she gets covid? If not, her mentioning of testing as an alternative is hypocrtical, leaving aside all other value judgements I or other internet strangers might make.
posted by joeyh at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2021 [31 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2021 [31 favorites]
So...IS she getting tested? How soon before and after the event? And is she entering total quarantine before/after the negative tests? The vaccine is not just for others at the event, it’s for the kids she runs into who aren’t fully vaxxed yet.
I think you’re (rightly) judging her because she’s making the wrong choice—even by her own logic. I don’t know what to tell you; she’s not going to be swayed by what any of us say and no one likes feeling judged. However, she has to live with the consequences of the choice she made and negative judgment is one predictable consequence.
posted by kapers at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2021 [20 favorites]
I think you’re (rightly) judging her because she’s making the wrong choice—even by her own logic. I don’t know what to tell you; she’s not going to be swayed by what any of us say and no one likes feeling judged. However, she has to live with the consequences of the choice she made and negative judgment is one predictable consequence.
posted by kapers at 9:39 PM on November 10, 2021 [20 favorites]
Your fiancé's actions make her a liar. Her lying could kill her and/or significantly harm herself, you or others. How do you feel about that?
posted by Toddles at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 9:40 PM on November 10, 2021 [40 favorites]
Personally I think she's putting herself at the worst risk by going unvaccinated (if people are spreading COVID at the concert, she's likely to have the worst case, having no protection against it). But it's her choice and her foolishness.
That said, faking a card doesn't say much for her trustworthiness. It's not even as if she's doing this to keep her employment or attend some sort of landmark life event--if she's willing to fudge a vaccine card just to go to a concert, what else is she willing to do? That and she expects you to praise her when you're understandably dubious--another red flag.
In other words, no, you're not too critical at all.
posted by kingdead at 9:52 PM on November 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
That said, faking a card doesn't say much for her trustworthiness. It's not even as if she's doing this to keep her employment or attend some sort of landmark life event--if she's willing to fudge a vaccine card just to go to a concert, what else is she willing to do? That and she expects you to praise her when you're understandably dubious--another red flag.
In other words, no, you're not too critical at all.
posted by kingdead at 9:52 PM on November 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
If I were you I'd tell her to give you a nice long kiss goodbye on her way to the music event cuz it will be the last one she ever has, and dtmfa.
And that she is complaining about you "judging her" and comparing it to other small lawbreaking means she knows inside she's being a selfish asshole.
posted by vrakatar at 9:54 PM on November 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
And that she is complaining about you "judging her" and comparing it to other small lawbreaking means she knows inside she's being a selfish asshole.
posted by vrakatar at 9:54 PM on November 10, 2021 [30 favorites]
If I were you I'd tell her to give you a nice long kiss goodbye on her way to the music event cuz it will be the last one she ever has, and dtmfa.
I would strongly advise you against giving a nice long kiss to a person who is both unvaccinated and appallingly irresponsible. This is more like a "Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" situation.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:03 PM on November 10, 2021 [36 favorites]
I would strongly advise you against giving a nice long kiss to a person who is both unvaccinated and appallingly irresponsible. This is more like a "Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" situation.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:03 PM on November 10, 2021 [36 favorites]
If you get married, would you be comfortable with your fiancée not vaccinating any of your potential future children for polio? Measles, mumps, and rubella? Diphtheria? And then faking the proof? And risking the health not only of those kids but their classmates who are immunocompromised, or their family members?
Because she doesn't know what's in the polio or MMR vaccine?
Because that's the kind of person she is. She's being willfully ignorant and whatever her true reasons for not getting vaccinated, she does not have the right to put other people at risk, and she's not allowed to substitute her personal judgment (for government/community rules) regarding what the consequences of that decision should be. She can choose not to vaccinate herself, but she doesn't get to screw over everyone else and lie so she can go be entertained.
I'm just a random internet stranger, but a) I don't think you're being too critical, and b) I feel really worried for you for what else she'll decide it's OK to lie (to you, to others) about because she doesn't like the responsible thing to do.
And of course you're judging her; she's reprehensible and deserves to be judged. Imagine she gets away with using it to go to a concert; what's next? On an airline flight to you honeymoon, where she'll get nabbed by the TSA and face massive fines and imprisonment for which you and your joint account will be responsible? This is a HUGE RED FLAG for your future, and I hope you'll consider this as a blessing to reassess your relationship.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:05 PM on November 10, 2021 [60 favorites]
Because she doesn't know what's in the polio or MMR vaccine?
Because that's the kind of person she is. She's being willfully ignorant and whatever her true reasons for not getting vaccinated, she does not have the right to put other people at risk, and she's not allowed to substitute her personal judgment (for government/community rules) regarding what the consequences of that decision should be. She can choose not to vaccinate herself, but she doesn't get to screw over everyone else and lie so she can go be entertained.
I'm just a random internet stranger, but a) I don't think you're being too critical, and b) I feel really worried for you for what else she'll decide it's OK to lie (to you, to others) about because she doesn't like the responsible thing to do.
And of course you're judging her; she's reprehensible and deserves to be judged. Imagine she gets away with using it to go to a concert; what's next? On an airline flight to you honeymoon, where she'll get nabbed by the TSA and face massive fines and imprisonment for which you and your joint account will be responsible? This is a HUGE RED FLAG for your future, and I hope you'll consider this as a blessing to reassess your relationship.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:05 PM on November 10, 2021 [60 favorites]
if she's willing to fudge a vaccine card just to go to a concert, what else is she willing to do?
Not fudge, fraud.
She is showing you who she is here. Where will she draw the line? In another situation where she has to put her own needs and wants second, would you trust her with your money, your children or your life?
I have good friends who choose not to vaccinate. They continue to be good friends because they realise their choice comes with limitations, consequences and responsibilities.
posted by Thella at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
Not fudge, fraud.
She is showing you who she is here. Where will she draw the line? In another situation where she has to put her own needs and wants second, would you trust her with your money, your children or your life?
I have good friends who choose not to vaccinate. They continue to be good friends because they realise their choice comes with limitations, consequences and responsibilities.
posted by Thella at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
Morality is all about judging right from wrong to yourself, so it's weird to expect someone not to have any judgement on actions that can hurt people.
She says that it doesn’t make sense to require a vaccination card to attend when vaccinated people can still get COVID and spread it to everyone so in order to really protect the public the event should be requiring tests instead.
This is partly a "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, but it's also more than that. To "really protect everyone", the venue should really cancel all events. And to really protect themselves, everyone should really stay home. But there are psychological, social, and economic reasons why after a year and a half, people both want and need to be able to go out. So you do risk calculations, and try to figure out a low enough level of risk to be acceptable. Most people calculating whether they can risk this event or not are doing it based on the assumption that other people there will be vaccinated, which has a different risk profile than being in a space surrounded by unvaccinated people. When people like your fiancee lie, that means other people are making their calculations based on false information. (Should they be assuming they'll be surrounded by liars instead of honest people? Maybe.)
Someone in one of these is-it-moral threads made a comparison to STDs. Like, people make sexual safety compromises all the time; you might ask your partner if they've been tested before you sleep with them, but you're unlikely to ask before you kiss them, and you're unlikely to demand to see the actual medical forms. But you really want to be able to make your risk calculation, and your decision to participate, without assuming they're lying to you. If later they tell you they did actually lie because testing isn't 100% accurate to start with so what difference does it make... Would you be like 'oh, good point'? And if a partner says they're on birth control or that they've had a vasectomy or whatever, I'd want to be able to believe them, though I know that even vasectomies and IUDs aren't 100% effective; they're still effective enough to affect my risk calculation.
Anyway, if your fiancee does actually care about protecting the other people she'll be around, she'll take a PCR test 4 days before the event, isolate completely until then, and then isolate for another 4-5 days after and get tested again. I'd still take issue with the lying, but I'd have a hard time calling her immoral if she did take all the conscientious steps needed to protect everyone as much as actually possible while still going to this event. If she doesn't, though, then that's a decision to refuse to take responsibility for the effects she might have on others. I would judge that, and it depresses the hell out of me.
By the way, if she's going to use this card for this event, is she then going to keep using it for all kinds of other things?
posted by trig at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2021 [26 favorites]
She says that it doesn’t make sense to require a vaccination card to attend when vaccinated people can still get COVID and spread it to everyone so in order to really protect the public the event should be requiring tests instead.
This is partly a "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, but it's also more than that. To "really protect everyone", the venue should really cancel all events. And to really protect themselves, everyone should really stay home. But there are psychological, social, and economic reasons why after a year and a half, people both want and need to be able to go out. So you do risk calculations, and try to figure out a low enough level of risk to be acceptable. Most people calculating whether they can risk this event or not are doing it based on the assumption that other people there will be vaccinated, which has a different risk profile than being in a space surrounded by unvaccinated people. When people like your fiancee lie, that means other people are making their calculations based on false information. (Should they be assuming they'll be surrounded by liars instead of honest people? Maybe.)
Someone in one of these is-it-moral threads made a comparison to STDs. Like, people make sexual safety compromises all the time; you might ask your partner if they've been tested before you sleep with them, but you're unlikely to ask before you kiss them, and you're unlikely to demand to see the actual medical forms. But you really want to be able to make your risk calculation, and your decision to participate, without assuming they're lying to you. If later they tell you they did actually lie because testing isn't 100% accurate to start with so what difference does it make... Would you be like 'oh, good point'? And if a partner says they're on birth control or that they've had a vasectomy or whatever, I'd want to be able to believe them, though I know that even vasectomies and IUDs aren't 100% effective; they're still effective enough to affect my risk calculation.
Anyway, if your fiancee does actually care about protecting the other people she'll be around, she'll take a PCR test 4 days before the event, isolate completely until then, and then isolate for another 4-5 days after and get tested again. I'd still take issue with the lying, but I'd have a hard time calling her immoral if she did take all the conscientious steps needed to protect everyone as much as actually possible while still going to this event. If she doesn't, though, then that's a decision to refuse to take responsibility for the effects she might have on others. I would judge that, and it depresses the hell out of me.
By the way, if she's going to use this card for this event, is she then going to keep using it for all kinds of other things?
posted by trig at 10:35 PM on November 10, 2021 [26 favorites]
Your fiancée is making multiple decisions that demonstrate poor judgment and a lack of empathy. From what I see here, it’s not just that she is not interested in the evidence about vaccines, and has not been influenced by news about breakthrough infections or the overwhelming yawn that has been side effects from vaccines: she is not interested in your concern for her and others… all of this before planning to break the law and put herself, you, and other people at risk. None of this is silly.
While people in relationships often have difficult conversations about judging each other, we SHOULD judge each other when we break each others’ moral boundaries. Furthermore, we should talk about moral conundrums with our partners, and we should care if we break a partner’s moral boundaries. In this case, it is not your job to waive your moral convictions so that your partner doesn’t have to feel judged. Feeling like a moral boundary has been broken doesn’t MAKE you morally correct in any given situation, and judging someone harshly for minor moral infractions is for sure a real problem to try to avoid, but a person who is rejecting an empathetic understanding of their partner’s concern and flipping the script to complain about being judged seems like they’re trying to get out of jail free by making their partner feel guilty.
Frankly, like other people above, my response to this behavior is fuck that shit. This is not the behavior of someone I would want to link myself to for life - I would not trust that they have the skill or humility to be kind, loving, supportive, sensible, or on the same team as me.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:00 PM on November 10, 2021 [40 favorites]
While people in relationships often have difficult conversations about judging each other, we SHOULD judge each other when we break each others’ moral boundaries. Furthermore, we should talk about moral conundrums with our partners, and we should care if we break a partner’s moral boundaries. In this case, it is not your job to waive your moral convictions so that your partner doesn’t have to feel judged. Feeling like a moral boundary has been broken doesn’t MAKE you morally correct in any given situation, and judging someone harshly for minor moral infractions is for sure a real problem to try to avoid, but a person who is rejecting an empathetic understanding of their partner’s concern and flipping the script to complain about being judged seems like they’re trying to get out of jail free by making their partner feel guilty.
Frankly, like other people above, my response to this behavior is fuck that shit. This is not the behavior of someone I would want to link myself to for life - I would not trust that they have the skill or humility to be kind, loving, supportive, sensible, or on the same team as me.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:00 PM on November 10, 2021 [40 favorites]
If anything, you're not being critical enough of your fiancee. You should end things with her. I don't say this lightly; I know it's a big deal to end a relationship, especially if you're serious enough to be engaged. But this is not going to get better. She's showing you who she is and you need to decide if you are okay being married to this sort of person.
There are three reasons I can see to end your relationship with your fiancee:
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:01 PM on November 10, 2021 [32 favorites]
There are three reasons I can see to end your relationship with your fiancee:
1) Her refusal to get vaccinated.Any of these would be terrible, but all together? You deserve better.
2) The fraud with the forged vaccine card. Not because it's illegal (it is), but because it is the kind of crime that shows your fiancee has selfish disregard for others.
3) Because she is trying to guilt trip you into saying you're fine with her selfish, antisocial behaviour when you obviously are not fine with it (and for good reason).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:01 PM on November 10, 2021 [32 favorites]
US Attorney confirms... creating a fake vaccine card is a FEDERAL crime.
posted by kschang at 11:03 PM on November 10, 2021 [42 favorites]
posted by kschang at 11:03 PM on November 10, 2021 [42 favorites]
Consider this a gift to you that your fiancé is showing you who she is before you get married. At least if you decide to go through with it now, you’re doing it with your eyes wide open.
posted by Jubey at 11:13 PM on November 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 11:13 PM on November 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
Not only is she more likely to get sick herself, as others are saying. She is also far more likely to have asymptomatic covid for a longer period of time than a vaccinated person, and more likely to be the vector who brings it into the concert than are any of the vaccinated people. So she is more likely to contribute to the serious illness of a vaccinated person who believed they were safe at this concert among other vaccinated people, but whose vaccine effectiveness is waning, or who is vulnerable for some other reason.
It's likely that vaccinated people carry a smaller viral load than unvaccinated people. They typically infect fewer people even when they do have an infection.
And in any case: humans are going to this concert in good faith believing they are in a room of vaccinated people. They made the judgement to attend this concert under those conditions. Your girlfriend doesn't get to decide and judge what factors are "really" safe for all these people who are trying to assess their own risk and comfort level.
posted by nantucket at 11:25 PM on November 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
It's likely that vaccinated people carry a smaller viral load than unvaccinated people. They typically infect fewer people even when they do have an infection.
And in any case: humans are going to this concert in good faith believing they are in a room of vaccinated people. They made the judgement to attend this concert under those conditions. Your girlfriend doesn't get to decide and judge what factors are "really" safe for all these people who are trying to assess their own risk and comfort level.
posted by nantucket at 11:25 PM on November 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
I also don’t quite understand how this would put people in danger if vaccinated people can still get COVID and every attendee should be vaccinated themselves anyway.
That's assuming the other attendees are not themselves forging their vaccination cards, right?
Honestly, it just sounds like she's trying to spin it as something rational rather than admitting she just wants to do what she wants to do and other people be damned.
I wouldn't want to be casual friends with a person like that. I think it says something disturbing about her character and I absolutely do not think it's silly to be bothered by it.
posted by M. at 11:27 PM on November 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
That's assuming the other attendees are not themselves forging their vaccination cards, right?
Honestly, it just sounds like she's trying to spin it as something rational rather than admitting she just wants to do what she wants to do and other people be damned.
I wouldn't want to be casual friends with a person like that. I think it says something disturbing about her character and I absolutely do not think it's silly to be bothered by it.
posted by M. at 11:27 PM on November 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
I also would end a relationship over this. This is so callous and irresponsible and immature. Absolutely would immediately distance myself from a person who chose to do this.
posted by fairlynearlyready at 11:38 PM on November 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by fairlynearlyready at 11:38 PM on November 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
If you want an 18th century German’s take, you’ll love Kant’s categorical imperative, specifically universalizability.
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.
There are lots of what I would call immoral applications of Kant but the formulation is elegant and it holds here.
posted by supercres at 11:40 PM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.
There are lots of what I would call immoral applications of Kant but the formulation is elegant and it holds here.
posted by supercres at 11:40 PM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
If there were no vaccine, and nobody could be vaccinated, then only a few (irresponsible) people would be willing to go to concerts. That wouldn't be enough to support the expenses of concerts, and so there would be no, or very few and poorly attended, concerts. No concerts.
Because concert attendees have some assurance that everyone attending will be vaccinated, enough people are willing to attend that musicians and tech crews and ushers CAN put on concerts. Concerts only exist right now because people TRUST that other attendees are vaccinated.
If your fiancee, and others, are routinely FAKING their vaccination status, and YOU just let it happen with no consequence, then that BREAKS the trust that we, as a community, as a society, have in each other. That broken trust, if it isn't stopped, if it's allowed to just grow with no opposition -- opposition you are set to provide right there on the front lines -- means that I, and most people, will no longer be able to go to any concerts.
Your fiancee, by breaking that trust, will be destroying the very thing she loves. She will be destroying the ability of anyone to have a concert that most people will be comfortable attending. She will be cutting off the lifeblood of live music, the audience, like a bit of cholesterol here or there eventually blocks the arteries in a body, choking and killing it.
posted by amtho at 11:47 PM on November 10, 2021 [34 favorites]
Because concert attendees have some assurance that everyone attending will be vaccinated, enough people are willing to attend that musicians and tech crews and ushers CAN put on concerts. Concerts only exist right now because people TRUST that other attendees are vaccinated.
If your fiancee, and others, are routinely FAKING their vaccination status, and YOU just let it happen with no consequence, then that BREAKS the trust that we, as a community, as a society, have in each other. That broken trust, if it isn't stopped, if it's allowed to just grow with no opposition -- opposition you are set to provide right there on the front lines -- means that I, and most people, will no longer be able to go to any concerts.
Your fiancee, by breaking that trust, will be destroying the very thing she loves. She will be destroying the ability of anyone to have a concert that most people will be comfortable attending. She will be cutting off the lifeblood of live music, the audience, like a bit of cholesterol here or there eventually blocks the arteries in a body, choking and killing it.
posted by amtho at 11:47 PM on November 10, 2021 [34 favorites]
Combining a) refusing to get vaccinated with b) creating a fake vaccine card so you can take part in large public events *anyway* is grossly selfish behaviour. Hugely. If you don't want to get vaccinated, at least have the decency to be honest about it. Plus anyone at this point worried about "unforseen side effects" of this, as opposed to any other medication, with billions vaccinated is... Being willfully ignorant.
Yes, people with the vaccine are less likely to first catch, and then spread, covid. Your girlfriend, being unvaccinated, is more likely to catch covid and more likely to spread it if she does. That is why the organisers don't want her there.
Personally I think you have a duty to inform the event that shes faking her card if she actually tries it. If you were my friend, and I knew you just let this happen, I would be seriously reconsidering our friendship. Laws are laws, morals are morals, and sometimes law breaking isn't immoral, so we don't care, but imo this is Hella immoral.
posted by stillnocturnal at 12:04 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Yes, people with the vaccine are less likely to first catch, and then spread, covid. Your girlfriend, being unvaccinated, is more likely to catch covid and more likely to spread it if she does. That is why the organisers don't want her there.
Personally I think you have a duty to inform the event that shes faking her card if she actually tries it. If you were my friend, and I knew you just let this happen, I would be seriously reconsidering our friendship. Laws are laws, morals are morals, and sometimes law breaking isn't immoral, so we don't care, but imo this is Hella immoral.
posted by stillnocturnal at 12:04 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Show her your question and these responses. See what her attitude is after random internet strangers assess her approach. Adapt your ongoing interactions with her based on her response. Good luck.
posted by Thella at 12:27 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Thella at 12:27 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
In addition to the many valid points raised above, is she lying either by omission or commission to anyone else? My pod of people that will hang out unmasked around each other indoors is about three dozen people who've known each other for somewhere between 1 and 3 decades. We've never demanded to see each other's vaccine cards but there's the strong understanding that everyone is protected. If it were to turn out that someone had not met that expectation, those decades of friendship would be trashed, as would any partners who had gone along with it.
As with most people here, I'm in camp DTMFA. Vaccine refusal is a pass/fail test for being a part of my life. If you really want to try to argue with her, you can ask her how this vaccine is any different than the other ones she's had or whether she'd refuse remdesivir (which is far more experimental than the vaccines) if she did catch Covid, but to be honest, she'd just come up with another excuse just like you're coming up with excuses to continue the relationship in spite of her actions.
I’ve respected her fears
Respected is the wrong word. Tolerated or tacitly encouraged is closer.
In this specific case, she's proposing something akin to the Nirvana fallacy - because the best case scenario isn't being met, why not cheat at it? Is that what you want in a partner?
posted by Candleman at 12:29 AM on November 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
As with most people here, I'm in camp DTMFA. Vaccine refusal is a pass/fail test for being a part of my life. If you really want to try to argue with her, you can ask her how this vaccine is any different than the other ones she's had or whether she'd refuse remdesivir (which is far more experimental than the vaccines) if she did catch Covid, but to be honest, she'd just come up with another excuse just like you're coming up with excuses to continue the relationship in spite of her actions.
I’ve respected her fears
Respected is the wrong word. Tolerated or tacitly encouraged is closer.
In this specific case, she's proposing something akin to the Nirvana fallacy - because the best case scenario isn't being met, why not cheat at it? Is that what you want in a partner?
posted by Candleman at 12:29 AM on November 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
Are you familiar with the waitstaff rule? The one about watching how someone treats waiters when you're picking a partner, because it's a test of their character and shows how they treat people when there are no serious consequences for hurting them?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:49 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:49 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
Dump her, warn the venue about her specifically, stand at the entrance to the venue to identify her and stop her getting in to carry out her plan of causing harm to other people
posted by runincircles at 12:56 AM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by runincircles at 12:56 AM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
To condense what I wrote above: if concerts can't keep out unvaccinated people, concerts won't be able to happen at all.
What she should do: put in the effort to understand why most people feel safer being vaccinated than unvaccinated.
posted by amtho at 1:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
What she should do: put in the effort to understand why most people feel safer being vaccinated than unvaccinated.
posted by amtho at 1:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
She's also endangering the parents, boyfriends/girlfriends, children, teachers, doctors, and neighbors of her fellow fans, the people who love the same music and concerts that she does.
Not only that, but the people working at the concert -- they don't have as much choice. Their parents, children, spouses, friends, etc. have even less choice.
The incremental risk is real, even if it's not huge; the bad outcomes that are being risked are huge, including death, and including making care unattainable for some other people.
Plus, every person who gets the virus, even if they don't die, is helping the virus refine itself and become more deadly to the rest of the population.
posted by amtho at 1:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
Not only that, but the people working at the concert -- they don't have as much choice. Their parents, children, spouses, friends, etc. have even less choice.
The incremental risk is real, even if it's not huge; the bad outcomes that are being risked are huge, including death, and including making care unattainable for some other people.
Plus, every person who gets the virus, even if they don't die, is helping the virus refine itself and become more deadly to the rest of the population.
posted by amtho at 1:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
While I'm not one to promote destruction of property, in this case I make an exception: get out the scissors and chop up that fraudulent and illegal vaccine card. Do it as a service for the community!
posted by lulu68 at 1:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by lulu68 at 1:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
This isn't like not wearing a seatbelt. This is like driving blindfolded.I think this is an excellent analogy and might help your fiance understand the situation, just because it is human nature to find analogies more understandable than probability.
If you drive down the block with your eyes closed, it's entirely possible you won't kill anybody. And driving with your eyes open isn't perfect. Plenty of people get in accidents with their eyes open! But driving with your eyes open doesn't have to be the perfect solution; it just has to be better than driving with your eyes closed.
In fact, I would argue that driving with my eyes open doesn't just benefit my local pedestrians. It helps keep me sane! If I am driving safely and a pedestrian is careless and I hit them, I would feel awful, but I'd be able to carry on with my life. I'd figure, "Well, they shouldn't have run into the street." If I killed somebody while driving with my eyes closed, it would be so totally my fault that I would be utterly devastated with guilt. I wouldn't just have taken the other person's life -- I'd have destroyed my own.
So you might ask your fiance to imagine how she'd feel in two different circumstances. If a concert was open to everybody, vaccinated or not, and all concertgoers went at their own risk, how would she feel if somebody got sick and died? (I'm guessing she'd be sad, but she wouldn't have cause to feel guilty.) By contrast, how will she feel if she goes to this concert and somebody dies specifically because they trusted her not to lie? (In this case, I would hope she'd be wracked by guilt!)
I am maybe a little more forgiving than some of the other posters here. I don't know your fiance and I am not going to pass judgment on her based on a few paragraphs I read on the Internet. But what I can tell you is this: I have been happily married for 24 years, and the single most important part of my relationship is our shared values.
Obviously, there are lots of other great things -- we have fun together, we make each other laugh, etc. But if one of us isn't feeling particularly funny or entertaining at any given moment, that's not a big deal. On the other hand, if her values were not fundamentally the same as mine, it would be impossible for us to plan a happy and meaningful life together.
If this is just a case of your fiance not understanding the medical issues involved, I think you can get past it. But if she understands them yet chooses to fake a vaccine card... or if she willfully refuses to understand... then that would be a MAJOR red flag for me, in terms of shared values. If you don't break up with her over it, I would, at the very least, postpone the actual wedding while you have some serious and difficult decisions about your personal codes of ethics and whether they're too different to make this work.
posted by yankeefog at 2:50 AM on November 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
At the risk of piling on, I think you are not being critical enough. Love blinds us to a person's faults, yadda yadda, but your fiancée is literally telling you she intends to commit a federal crime. Are you an accomplice if you know but say nothing? Legally I'm not sure, but morally you are culpable as an enabler.
posted by basalganglia at 3:31 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by basalganglia at 3:31 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
This isn't like not wearing a seatbelt. This is like driving blindfolded.
Heh. Much better analogy!
posted by pompomtom at 3:49 AM on November 11, 2021
Heh. Much better analogy!
posted by pompomtom at 3:49 AM on November 11, 2021
I agree with everyone that your fiancée's behaviour is appalling. She intends to expose other people to a level of risk that they did not consent to be exposed to. Her disbelief in / ignorance of the effect of vaccines on transmission doesn't make that not true.
I don't want to pile on, but I do really, really want to urge you to consider whether you want to be with someone who doesn't share your values when it comes to something this serious. And it is serious -- it's literally a matter of life and death.
When we love someone we really really want to overlook these kinds of differences, or rationalise them away as not that serious, or a misunderstanding, or something that the other person will change their mind about later. We do this because we don't want to acknowledge that we have such a profound incompatibility with someone that we want to be with.
I know this because I rationalised away an increasingly broad spectrum of values disagreements with my ex -- to the point where we basically couldn't have a conversation about anything important -- and convinced myself that this was totally fine. It was not fine. We were both miserable, we stayed in the relationship much longer than we should have, and we ended up breaking up anyway. I can't overstate the relief I now feel not to be in that situation.
posted by confluency at 3:53 AM on November 11, 2021 [15 favorites]
I don't want to pile on, but I do really, really want to urge you to consider whether you want to be with someone who doesn't share your values when it comes to something this serious. And it is serious -- it's literally a matter of life and death.
When we love someone we really really want to overlook these kinds of differences, or rationalise them away as not that serious, or a misunderstanding, or something that the other person will change their mind about later. We do this because we don't want to acknowledge that we have such a profound incompatibility with someone that we want to be with.
I know this because I rationalised away an increasingly broad spectrum of values disagreements with my ex -- to the point where we basically couldn't have a conversation about anything important -- and convinced myself that this was totally fine. It was not fine. We were both miserable, we stayed in the relationship much longer than we should have, and we ended up breaking up anyway. I can't overstate the relief I now feel not to be in that situation.
posted by confluency at 3:53 AM on November 11, 2021 [15 favorites]
humans are going to this concert in good faith believing they are in a room of vaccinated people. They made the judgement to attend this concert under those conditions. Your girlfriend doesn't get to decide and judge what factors are "really" safe for all these people who are trying to assess their own risk and comfort level.
This.
posted by evilmomlady at 3:54 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
This.
posted by evilmomlady at 3:54 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
I am an anarchist and do not, therefore, have that much respect for the law as the law. I view "law" mostly as the codified convenience of various powerful groups rather than some kind of "justice", and I think history (and, eg, the Kyle Rittenhouse trial) backs me up on this point.
But man, I'd break up with someone over this, because if you don't care about laws you have to care about common sense and other people. If you don't care about laws you have more, not less, responsibility, because you have to think every time. Also, you don't get to fake people out just because you don't believe in the law - she's lying to everyone at the concert after appearing to agree to their requests, and as an anarchist that really bugs me. If you aren't going to respect the law, you have to be honest or it all goes to shit.
Honestly, among anarchists, if someone lied about vaccination status and put others at risk, they could expect to lose friends and be frozen out of the community, and if everyone involved were young and salty they might actually get in a fight. It wouldn't just be "oh, we don't care about the law, man".
posted by Frowner at 3:54 AM on November 11, 2021 [55 favorites]
But man, I'd break up with someone over this, because if you don't care about laws you have to care about common sense and other people. If you don't care about laws you have more, not less, responsibility, because you have to think every time. Also, you don't get to fake people out just because you don't believe in the law - she's lying to everyone at the concert after appearing to agree to their requests, and as an anarchist that really bugs me. If you aren't going to respect the law, you have to be honest or it all goes to shit.
Honestly, among anarchists, if someone lied about vaccination status and put others at risk, they could expect to lose friends and be frozen out of the community, and if everyone involved were young and salty they might actually get in a fight. It wouldn't just be "oh, we don't care about the law, man".
posted by Frowner at 3:54 AM on November 11, 2021 [55 favorites]
I said I didn’t want to be a part of it and she can choose to do what she wishes.. just leave me out of it.. but she says that I’m judging her.
"Yeah, well if you'd just pull your own head out of your arse I wouldn't have to, would I?"
I'm with aspersioncast. Life's too short. Find somebody to marry who isn't a bandit.
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
"Yeah, well if you'd just pull your own head out of your arse I wouldn't have to, would I?"
I'm with aspersioncast. Life's too short. Find somebody to marry who isn't a bandit.
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh wait, I missed the part where the question was not "Should I report my fiancée?" but rather "My fiancée thinks I'm being judgy; what should I do?"
Friend, this internet stranger is now judging your fiancée for being an entitled, selfish [unprintable word] AND you for being a spineless [other unprintable word].
She is showing you who she is; that when things get even a little bit complicated, she is going to choose the "Me First" option and throw not just her community but also you under the bus. Her desire not to be judged is just the super-gross icing on the entitlement cake.
posted by basalganglia at 4:03 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
Friend, this internet stranger is now judging your fiancée for being an entitled, selfish [unprintable word] AND you for being a spineless [other unprintable word].
She is showing you who she is; that when things get even a little bit complicated, she is going to choose the "Me First" option and throw not just her community but also you under the bus. Her desire not to be judged is just the super-gross icing on the entitlement cake.
posted by basalganglia at 4:03 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
I am the random stranger your fiancee might kill.
I have the same cancer Colin Powell had. Like him, I'm vaccinated, but the vaccines don't work well for us. Of course, I'm not going to the concert — thanks to people like your fiancee I will probably never go to a concert again — but maybe your fiancee sits next to a vaccinated teen with an unvaccinated sibling who sits next to my chemo nurse's child at school.
Or maybe your fiancee then decides to use the fake vaccine card to board a plane and sit next to me when I've finally decided that I'm going to go visit the grandchild I have literally never seen because she was born just before COVID. Because she's not shredding the card after the concert, is she?
Judging - as in making a judgment - isn't always bad. If your fiancee were committing some other crime - say knocking off convenience stores - presumably you'd be able to make a judgment that this is an unethical person you should not tie your life to. It's perfectly fine to make judgments like that. Your fiancee is choosing to act unethically in a way that is putting people's lives at risk. It's OK to judge her for that. Honestly, if you stayed with her after this, I couldn't be friends with you.
(The car comparison I read recently was that we're living in a world in which half of the people have decided they can run red lights.)
posted by FencingGal at 4:10 AM on November 11, 2021 [101 favorites]
I have the same cancer Colin Powell had. Like him, I'm vaccinated, but the vaccines don't work well for us. Of course, I'm not going to the concert — thanks to people like your fiancee I will probably never go to a concert again — but maybe your fiancee sits next to a vaccinated teen with an unvaccinated sibling who sits next to my chemo nurse's child at school.
Or maybe your fiancee then decides to use the fake vaccine card to board a plane and sit next to me when I've finally decided that I'm going to go visit the grandchild I have literally never seen because she was born just before COVID. Because she's not shredding the card after the concert, is she?
Judging - as in making a judgment - isn't always bad. If your fiancee were committing some other crime - say knocking off convenience stores - presumably you'd be able to make a judgment that this is an unethical person you should not tie your life to. It's perfectly fine to make judgments like that. Your fiancee is choosing to act unethically in a way that is putting people's lives at risk. It's OK to judge her for that. Honestly, if you stayed with her after this, I couldn't be friends with you.
(The car comparison I read recently was that we're living in a world in which half of the people have decided they can run red lights.)
posted by FencingGal at 4:10 AM on November 11, 2021 [101 favorites]
I'm trying to think what the one perfect argument to sway her would be. One thing that's very striking to me, that you'll see if you follow any of medical twitter, is the number of medical professionals begging people to get the shot because of the reduced medical and hospital resources leading to people dying of all kinds of ailments. And the number of laypeople begging everyone to get vaccinated because they couldn't get treatment for their sick family members because of the strain COVID has put on our medical resources. Just the hell that people are going through from day to day. The idea of ignoring all that, not only to the point of choosing not to be vaccinated, but to the point of forging a card, is just mind-blowing to me. Has she really heard nothing about all of these consequences?
Another thing I would point out to her, if she's determined to be completely selfish, is that she's going to be going around with a huge social liability for the rest of her life. Yes in purely practical terms, if she really cares so little for other people, people are going to hear about this and think badly of her. Not hire her, not want to socialize with her. Some of these will be people who have suffered losses from COVID. Others will be people who find her specious and self-serving rhetoric repellant.
I don't know. If in the past you have felt the two of you shared significant values, you might want to try to help her out here. Or at least feel like you gave it your best shot before dumping her. But I would definitely dump her rather than do the slightest thing to enable this.
posted by BibiRose at 4:11 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Another thing I would point out to her, if she's determined to be completely selfish, is that she's going to be going around with a huge social liability for the rest of her life. Yes in purely practical terms, if she really cares so little for other people, people are going to hear about this and think badly of her. Not hire her, not want to socialize with her. Some of these will be people who have suffered losses from COVID. Others will be people who find her specious and self-serving rhetoric repellant.
I don't know. If in the past you have felt the two of you shared significant values, you might want to try to help her out here. Or at least feel like you gave it your best shot before dumping her. But I would definitely dump her rather than do the slightest thing to enable this.
posted by BibiRose at 4:11 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Obtaining and using a fake vaccine card isn't jaywalking. It's not a minor crime.
A fraudulent CDC vax card is a fake government document, and therefore fraud. That's a felony.
A felony comes with serious fines and even prison time. It marks her for life.
Your fiancee wants to commit an actual, literal crime that could compromise your future financial health and land her in prison so she can *checks notes* go listen to some music?
Aside from the public health implications, this is breathtakingly poor judgment.
She's shown you who she is.
The only question is who you are.
Are you someone who tolerates this?
posted by champers at 4:16 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
A fraudulent CDC vax card is a fake government document, and therefore fraud. That's a felony.
A felony comes with serious fines and even prison time. It marks her for life.
Your fiancee wants to commit an actual, literal crime that could compromise your future financial health and land her in prison so she can *checks notes* go listen to some music?
Aside from the public health implications, this is breathtakingly poor judgment.
She's shown you who she is.
The only question is who you are.
Are you someone who tolerates this?
posted by champers at 4:16 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
You are not being too critical, for all the reasons stated above. She is telling you something about her commitment or lack thereof to living in a society where we care about other people and take some basic steps to act like it. She is telling you something about her willingness to cheat and lie to avoid a fairly minor consequence like missing a concert.
What you do with that information is up to you.
posted by Stacey at 4:16 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
What you do with that information is up to you.
posted by Stacey at 4:16 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
I am honestly thisclose to trying to find out what city you live in, and then emailing each and every music venue in that city to warn them that someone is planning to make a fake vaccination card for one of their upcoming events, so that they all have a chance to update their protocols and require a scannable Q-code thing so your fiancee's plans won't work. That is how angry I am about how selfish and entitled she is acting.
The fact that an internet stranger is that angry about this should tell you something about how severe this is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [50 favorites]
The fact that an internet stranger is that angry about this should tell you something about how severe this is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [50 favorites]
If she was to take a series of rapid tests in the days leading up to the concert, the risk to others would be minimal, but she'd still be opening herself up to a pretty big risk. If there were no requirement to prove her vaccination status, I'd merely consider her a bit of an idiot.
Since there is and forging a vaccination card is a federal felony (assuming you're in the US), I'd consider her blindingly stupid given that people are actually getting prosecuted for that shit and the consequences of that are worse than COVID for most people and the chance of those consequences is nearly 100% should she get caught.
I'm leaving aside the ethical issues since those have already been covered quite well in previous answers.
posted by wierdo at 4:28 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Since there is and forging a vaccination card is a federal felony (assuming you're in the US), I'd consider her blindingly stupid given that people are actually getting prosecuted for that shit and the consequences of that are worse than COVID for most people and the chance of those consequences is nearly 100% should she get caught.
I'm leaving aside the ethical issues since those have already been covered quite well in previous answers.
posted by wierdo at 4:28 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Allow me to silently scream my frustrations about people choosing to not get a vaccine where people in my country had to wait months to get hold of them. So many are still waiting.
I would absolutely, no question whatsoever, treat this as a relationship deal-breaker. Vaccines are about personal as well as community safety. Someone who wilfully disregards this after seeing the staggering loss of human life caused in this pandemic, is not someone I would be able to countenance being with.
posted by Nieshka at 4:36 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
I would absolutely, no question whatsoever, treat this as a relationship deal-breaker. Vaccines are about personal as well as community safety. Someone who wilfully disregards this after seeing the staggering loss of human life caused in this pandemic, is not someone I would be able to countenance being with.
posted by Nieshka at 4:36 AM on November 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
We got in an argument because I said I didn’t want to be a part of it and she can choose to do what she wishes.. just leave me out of it.. but she says that I’m judging her.
You are judging her. So am I. So is everyone else in this thread. That is because she is doing the wrong thing. If she is unhappy with that, she can change her actions and do the right thing.
Often 'judging people' is held up as negative behaviour. But that's when it's judging people for things that have no impact on others.
She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am- but to me it just seems irresponsible and selfish and it’s just something I wouldn’t do.
In all cases, the laws that exist don't match perfectly the laws we would write as an individula, because they are a product of society not you personally. While some people are very rules abiding (if it is a rule, you just comply with it regardless) others are not. The issue here is not that you are being hypocritical by picking and choosing among laws - all of us would agree that some laws are more important to uphold than others. Instead it is that she thinks this law is "little" and you don't. Others on this thread agree with you.
posted by plonkee at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
You are judging her. So am I. So is everyone else in this thread. That is because she is doing the wrong thing. If she is unhappy with that, she can change her actions and do the right thing.
Often 'judging people' is held up as negative behaviour. But that's when it's judging people for things that have no impact on others.
She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am- but to me it just seems irresponsible and selfish and it’s just something I wouldn’t do.
In all cases, the laws that exist don't match perfectly the laws we would write as an individula, because they are a product of society not you personally. While some people are very rules abiding (if it is a rule, you just comply with it regardless) others are not. The issue here is not that you are being hypocritical by picking and choosing among laws - all of us would agree that some laws are more important to uphold than others. Instead it is that she thinks this law is "little" and you don't. Others on this thread agree with you.
posted by plonkee at 4:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Hey OP you’re allowed to judge people for doing stupid fucking shit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [65 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [65 favorites]
I just want to talk about her as your fiancee. When you're young, your brain often almost deliberately tells you to re-examine rules and break them; it's part of the pathway to making your own choices as an adult. It can feel really close and bonding to support each other in breaking rules and laws, "us against the world," "unconditional love," etc.
But over a lifetime as you get more responsibility it tends to get harder. Breaking the rules and being lazy about looking into what's in a vaccine becomes hiding credit card bills, not paying the property tax, lying to you personally about stuff because it's easier to lie about debt than deal with it. Once you have more responsibilities - home, career, kids - it becomes untenable. Then we wish we had used our judgement.
Your fiancee has a kind of newish responsibility - how to operate in society during a pandemic. She is making bad, immature choices. You should not support them. The justifications she's using are ridiculous. In my area, vaccinated people are about 1/3 the cases - but 85% of eligible adults are vaccinated. The chances that a vaccinated person will a) have Covid and b) pass it on are way, way way smaller - which is why the vaccine rules exist.
The few people I know who are not vaxxed are behaving MORE responsibly and not going out. Not less.
Also, you should think about whether you two can grow together or if she's going to hold you back. One thing I love about my husband of 27 years is that he makes me a better person, not a worse one.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
But over a lifetime as you get more responsibility it tends to get harder. Breaking the rules and being lazy about looking into what's in a vaccine becomes hiding credit card bills, not paying the property tax, lying to you personally about stuff because it's easier to lie about debt than deal with it. Once you have more responsibilities - home, career, kids - it becomes untenable. Then we wish we had used our judgement.
Your fiancee has a kind of newish responsibility - how to operate in society during a pandemic. She is making bad, immature choices. You should not support them. The justifications she's using are ridiculous. In my area, vaccinated people are about 1/3 the cases - but 85% of eligible adults are vaccinated. The chances that a vaccinated person will a) have Covid and b) pass it on are way, way way smaller - which is why the vaccine rules exist.
The few people I know who are not vaxxed are behaving MORE responsibly and not going out. Not less.
Also, you should think about whether you two can grow together or if she's going to hold you back. One thing I love about my husband of 27 years is that he makes me a better person, not a worse one.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
So many great responses in this thread, virtually any of which would be enough to get a reasonable, thoughtful person to change their position on this. My guess is that if you show her this thread, she will STILL ignore common sense, science, morality, etc., which would put her in the category of those for whom evidence won't override selfishness. Try it and see - and if she sticks to her guns, DTMFA.
posted by Right On Red at 5:10 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Right On Red at 5:10 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Your fiance is committing a felony, and acting irresponsibly and selfishly, just to go to a concert. A concert. A. Stupid. Fucking. Concert.
They're also putting you at greater risk by doing so. That's not the action of someone who cares for others, especially someone they profess to love.
This would piss me off to a degree that I don't have words for.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
They're also putting you at greater risk by doing so. That's not the action of someone who cares for others, especially someone they profess to love.
This would piss me off to a degree that I don't have words for.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
Allow me to silently scream my frustrations about people choosing to not get a vaccine where people in my country had to wait months to get hold of them.
May we harmonise?
posted by pompomtom at 5:35 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
May we harmonise?
posted by pompomtom at 5:35 AM on November 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
DTMFA
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:39 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:39 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
My niece and her BF got covid from exactly this scenario: attending a concert in NYC where cards were required only to find out someone faked theirs who was infected.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:47 AM on November 11, 2021 [35 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:47 AM on November 11, 2021 [35 favorites]
But I also don’t know if that’s warranted because I also don’t quite understand how this would put people in danger if vaccinated people can still get COVID and every attendee should be vaccinated themselves anyway.
So at family gatherings my mom always puts a sharpie next to the stack of plastic cups so everyone can label theirs. I used to always leave mine blank because since everyone else labeled theirs I would be safe in drinking from the unlabeled one. Makes the same sort of sense as “well every one else is vaccinated so I don’t have to be.” Right?
Well my system worked great, right up until I learned that my gross older brother didn’t label the cup he spit his chewing tobacco into.
It only takes one other person using the same logic that everyone else is vaccinated to screw up your fiancé’s system, and having experienced both, surprise used chew in your coke is way more pleasant than Covid. You’re also way less likely to pass it on and cause someone else’s death.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:51 AM on November 11, 2021 [37 favorites]
So at family gatherings my mom always puts a sharpie next to the stack of plastic cups so everyone can label theirs. I used to always leave mine blank because since everyone else labeled theirs I would be safe in drinking from the unlabeled one. Makes the same sort of sense as “well every one else is vaccinated so I don’t have to be.” Right?
Well my system worked great, right up until I learned that my gross older brother didn’t label the cup he spit his chewing tobacco into.
It only takes one other person using the same logic that everyone else is vaccinated to screw up your fiancé’s system, and having experienced both, surprise used chew in your coke is way more pleasant than Covid. You’re also way less likely to pass it on and cause someone else’s death.
posted by Gygesringtone at 5:51 AM on November 11, 2021 [37 favorites]
a music event that is requiring proof of vaccination for attendees
I would absolutely not take her word for this, and investigate the event & venue yourself.
Because I'm in the concert business, and every venue & concert promoter in my area - including some, like Live Nation, who are nationwide and have nationwide policies regardless of the culture/law/guidelines of any particular state - allow for either proof of vaccination or proof of negative results from a PCR/antigen test (as in, not a home nose swab test) received within 48-72 hours before attending a show.
In other words, there's a damn good chance your fiancé could attend unvaxed if she wanted to, as long as she's willing to take a test shortly before the show.
Which would make her insistence on getting a fake card even more of a bullshit move.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
I would absolutely not take her word for this, and investigate the event & venue yourself.
Because I'm in the concert business, and every venue & concert promoter in my area - including some, like Live Nation, who are nationwide and have nationwide policies regardless of the culture/law/guidelines of any particular state - allow for either proof of vaccination or proof of negative results from a PCR/antigen test (as in, not a home nose swab test) received within 48-72 hours before attending a show.
In other words, there's a damn good chance your fiancé could attend unvaxed if she wanted to, as long as she's willing to take a test shortly before the show.
Which would make her insistence on getting a fake card even more of a bullshit move.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
The OP could be in Ontario, which does require proof of vaccination for concerts. In that case, everyone has known that for a while and so not being able to attend is a consequence of that choice.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:37 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:37 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
As of June 2021, more than 1.7 billion doses of mRNA Covid-19 vaccines have been administered worldwide.
Where are these massive side-effects and "unknown/adverse" reactions?
This is selfish, narcissistic nonsense. It would be a red flag for me personally - BEFORE the fraud attempt.
posted by rozcakj at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
Where are these massive side-effects and "unknown/adverse" reactions?
This is selfish, narcissistic nonsense. It would be a red flag for me personally - BEFORE the fraud attempt.
posted by rozcakj at 6:38 AM on November 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
Woof. See, people like your fiancee are why I have skipped both of the concerts I had tickets to this week. I'm vaxxed (and boosted!) and happy to wear a mask, and the venues require proof of vax or negative PCR test. So it should be safe for me.
But because of LYING LIARS like your LYING LIAR fiancee, IT IS NOT. And so I have thrown 60 bucks down the drain this week because of people like her.
If you don't want the shot, you don't get to go to the fucking concert, that is the fucking rule. FUCK.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
But because of LYING LIARS like your LYING LIAR fiancee, IT IS NOT. And so I have thrown 60 bucks down the drain this week because of people like her.
If you don't want the shot, you don't get to go to the fucking concert, that is the fucking rule. FUCK.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:41 AM on November 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
Seriously, why are you marrying this person? I couldn't get past this and would mentally be imagining this nonsense she's spewing w/ the vaccine to the thousands of other inevitable life events in the future. SHUDDER.
posted by BeeLIC at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by BeeLIC at 6:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Setting aside harm she may do to others: this is the person you're going to marry. What happens when you're both stuck on the life raft? How long until she kicks you off and takes all the fresh water for herself?
posted by Playdoughnails at 6:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Playdoughnails at 6:52 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Are you planning on having children? Do you want to have to make healthcare decisions about those children with a person who is making these kinds of choices and moral calculations?
When someone shows you who they are, believe them
posted by brookeb at 6:59 AM on November 11, 2021 [16 favorites]
When someone shows you who they are, believe them
posted by brookeb at 6:59 AM on November 11, 2021 [16 favorites]
Count me among the people for whom this behavior (or honestly, even strongly considering doing this) would be a dealbreaker in a relationship.
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yeah this is bullshit. Lying about being vaccinated is not some kind of harmless white lie. It's pretty sociopathic IMHO and doesn't speak well of this person being appropriate to build a life with. If they feel just fine and dandy about lying about something that could literally cause the death of other people, what other shitty behaviors are they able to cognitively trick themselves into believing are fine (especially if it benefits them at the expense of hurting others)? Scary. You deserve better!
posted by erattacorrige at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 7:12 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
humans are going to this concert in good faith believing they are in a room of vaccinated people. They made the judgement to attend this concert under those conditions. Your girlfriend doesn't get to decide and judge what factors are "really" safe for all these people who are trying to assess their own risk and comfort level.
You have agreed to have unprotected sex with someone based on the understanding that you've both tested negative for STIs and aren't having unprotected sex with anyone else.
Turns out your partner didn't get tested, faked the results, and has been having unprotected sex with other people.
Should you judge your partner?
Yes, because they lied and violated your right to informed consent.
The other concert goers made their decision to go based on the understanding that other concert goers would be taking the precautions they've agreed to in order to attend. Thanks to your partner, that understanding is false. Your partner is violating the right to informed consent of every other person there.
There isn't enough judgement in the world.
posted by BlueNorther at 7:15 AM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
You have agreed to have unprotected sex with someone based on the understanding that you've both tested negative for STIs and aren't having unprotected sex with anyone else.
Turns out your partner didn't get tested, faked the results, and has been having unprotected sex with other people.
Should you judge your partner?
Yes, because they lied and violated your right to informed consent.
The other concert goers made their decision to go based on the understanding that other concert goers would be taking the precautions they've agreed to in order to attend. Thanks to your partner, that understanding is false. Your partner is violating the right to informed consent of every other person there.
There isn't enough judgement in the world.
posted by BlueNorther at 7:15 AM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
You guys can spend some cuddle-time reading through the Herman Caine Awards on Reddit. I got vaccinated as soon as I possibly could. I just vaccinated my child who was just eligible this month. Despite being very much on the Vaccination Saves Lives train, what the HCA subreddit showed me is how miserable Covid is even for the survivors. You can get hospitalized as a young person and survive Covid. But if you end up going to the ER with severe symptoms, you are in for a world of hurt. If you are unlucky enough to get put on a ventilator and then lucky/unlucky enough to come off it and go home, you've got so much recovery ahead of you. And many long Covid sufferers will tell you they are terrified that they'll never fully recover. Also, I'm currently in deep fear that a breakthrough infection would harm myself or my spouse enough that the medical debt would overwhelm us. We are still being very cautious because dingdongs like your fiancee are out there still making life tougher than it has to be.
I'm sorry she's scared about needles. She should counsel with her doctor today about how to deal with her fears so she can resume some semblance of normal life. And I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. It's a side-stressor in an already stressful and uncertain world that must be making things so much tougher on you.
posted by amanda at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry she's scared about needles. She should counsel with her doctor today about how to deal with her fears so she can resume some semblance of normal life. And I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. It's a side-stressor in an already stressful and uncertain world that must be making things so much tougher on you.
posted by amanda at 7:17 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am friends with a few people who aren't vaccinated. I respect their choice: it's their body.
I also don't socialize with them inside; that's my choice that I make about my body.
I would end the friendship if I found out they were falsifying vax records in order to attend a concert, for all the reasons that have been enunciated above. It shows a gross lack of integrity that has nothing to do with freedom of choice.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:21 AM on November 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
I also don't socialize with them inside; that's my choice that I make about my body.
I would end the friendship if I found out they were falsifying vax records in order to attend a concert, for all the reasons that have been enunciated above. It shows a gross lack of integrity that has nothing to do with freedom of choice.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:21 AM on November 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
ETA to be clear, it doesn't matter if your partner does not, in fact, have any STIs and has not made you sick. It matters that they thought they had the right to decide that it was okay to force you to take that risk against your will.
posted by BlueNorther at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 7:23 AM on November 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have nothing kind to say about your fiancee, sorry. This is a "run, don't walk, to the nearest exit" level of red flag here, friend.
posted by Alterscape at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 7:25 AM on November 11, 2021 [15 favorites]
Do you really want to marry someone who's already got one foot through the qanon door? It isn't going to stop there. Once you're financially entangled, you're not going to get that money back if she spends it all on gold bars, horse medicine, and supplements sold by podcasters. If you have children with her, your kids are going to be vulnerable to the resurgence of polio that people like your partner are so eager to enjoy.
Are you fully work from home and planning to quarantine after her concert, or are you going to be passing her COVID on when she infects you? Or was she going to quarantine in isolation afterwards so as not to infect you and others? And you didn't mention whether she'll be quarantining in advance of this show so as to be absolutely sure she's not sick, since testing windows leave a good bit of wiggle room that ought to give an ethical person pause, especially regarding a frivolous and nonessential entertainment event that other people are attending in anticipation of being in a safe population?
She is a bad person for doing this or even considering it, that is not arguable, and your character is partially defined by the company you choose to keep. So: is this who YOU are? You can't stay out of this, it's a matter of public health and your own personal responsibility.
I have ended friendships over less blatantly selfish and criminal behavior than this in the past two years. I would divorce my husband if he did this. You ought to be judgmental, you should judge this behavior as unacceptable. She should feel judged and it should feel bad.
How many people have y'all told this plan to at this point? If I heard that my friend's roommate's sister's fiancee or whatever was getting a fake vax card to go to a concert, I would do everything in my power to get her busted for it. It would be a very useful vent for the rage I have at all the people who have shown themselves to be absolute lowest possible quality in recent years.
It is at this point within her rights to not get vaccinated, but if she chooses that she also needs to choose to stay the hell home.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:20 AM on November 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
Are you fully work from home and planning to quarantine after her concert, or are you going to be passing her COVID on when she infects you? Or was she going to quarantine in isolation afterwards so as not to infect you and others? And you didn't mention whether she'll be quarantining in advance of this show so as to be absolutely sure she's not sick, since testing windows leave a good bit of wiggle room that ought to give an ethical person pause, especially regarding a frivolous and nonessential entertainment event that other people are attending in anticipation of being in a safe population?
She is a bad person for doing this or even considering it, that is not arguable, and your character is partially defined by the company you choose to keep. So: is this who YOU are? You can't stay out of this, it's a matter of public health and your own personal responsibility.
I have ended friendships over less blatantly selfish and criminal behavior than this in the past two years. I would divorce my husband if he did this. You ought to be judgmental, you should judge this behavior as unacceptable. She should feel judged and it should feel bad.
How many people have y'all told this plan to at this point? If I heard that my friend's roommate's sister's fiancee or whatever was getting a fake vax card to go to a concert, I would do everything in my power to get her busted for it. It would be a very useful vent for the rage I have at all the people who have shown themselves to be absolute lowest possible quality in recent years.
It is at this point within her rights to not get vaccinated, but if she chooses that she also needs to choose to stay the hell home.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:20 AM on November 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
I look at it this way: if she doesn’t want to be vaccinated then well yes ultimately that’s her choice; but she doesn’t want to accept the consequences of that choice even for a minor inconvenience of a concert (!) and that’s a sign of selfishness and immaturity that reflects VERY poorly on her character.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:27 AM on November 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:27 AM on November 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
she says that I’m judging her
I'm an epidemiologist and I'm judging the hell out of her.
They are using extremely faulty logic in convincing themselves that this is morally, ethically anything other than extremely ill advised (at best). For a point of reference, you can call your own physician and tell them the circumstances of this situation. See what your doctor says, and consider telling your fiancé that you'd be less worried if they had a conversation with their own doctor about it before moving forward with this plan.
Note, too, that a growing number of physicians and physician practices are banning or refusing to see patients who will not be vaccinated (and/or fake vaccination records). I expect your fiancé's doctor is probably the most compelling person who could reach them at this point.
Good luck.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'm an epidemiologist and I'm judging the hell out of her.
They are using extremely faulty logic in convincing themselves that this is morally, ethically anything other than extremely ill advised (at best). For a point of reference, you can call your own physician and tell them the circumstances of this situation. See what your doctor says, and consider telling your fiancé that you'd be less worried if they had a conversation with their own doctor about it before moving forward with this plan.
Note, too, that a growing number of physicians and physician practices are banning or refusing to see patients who will not be vaccinated (and/or fake vaccination records). I expect your fiancé's doctor is probably the most compelling person who could reach them at this point.
Good luck.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 8:36 AM on November 11, 2021 [22 favorites]
She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am
This really jumped out at me as well. Any couple planning to enter into a legally-binding commitment should be on the same page about which laws are "little" enough to break.
Others have covered the public-health angle pretty well, so I am going to emphasize the fraud angle. Your fiancée has told you, in no uncertain terms, that she intends to commit a fraudulent act. This should really worry you as her prospective spouse, because people who commit fraud tend to get better and better at rationalizing it to themselves. It can become an addiction. It's terribly seductive.
I had a friend -- charming, funny, generous -- who started small. He evaded detection/consequences for years. Here's how his story ended.
I didn't know about his troubles until that story broke, but I knew him. In hindsight, I guarantee what he was telling himself every step of the way was some variation on the theme of what people deserved. His employer deserved the losses because they were credulous enough not to have basic internal controls in place. He and his spouse deserved trips abroad, clothes, iPhones, furniture, and luxury SUVs, because growing up queer had put them through absolute hell, and STATUS was a way they could finally fit in somewhere. His friends deserved nice gifts, because they had accepted him when others would not. It probably felt like justice.
Go into this with your eyes open. Know everything your fiancée thinks other people don't "deserve," in the service of what she thinks she does. What will happen if she's caught, now or the next time or the next? What can you trust, from this day forward?
Please protect yourself.
posted by armeowda at 8:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
This really jumped out at me as well. Any couple planning to enter into a legally-binding commitment should be on the same page about which laws are "little" enough to break.
Others have covered the public-health angle pretty well, so I am going to emphasize the fraud angle. Your fiancée has told you, in no uncertain terms, that she intends to commit a fraudulent act. This should really worry you as her prospective spouse, because people who commit fraud tend to get better and better at rationalizing it to themselves. It can become an addiction. It's terribly seductive.
I had a friend -- charming, funny, generous -- who started small. He evaded detection/consequences for years. Here's how his story ended.
I didn't know about his troubles until that story broke, but I knew him. In hindsight, I guarantee what he was telling himself every step of the way was some variation on the theme of what people deserved. His employer deserved the losses because they were credulous enough not to have basic internal controls in place. He and his spouse deserved trips abroad, clothes, iPhones, furniture, and luxury SUVs, because growing up queer had put them through absolute hell, and STATUS was a way they could finally fit in somewhere. His friends deserved nice gifts, because they had accepted him when others would not. It probably felt like justice.
Go into this with your eyes open. Know everything your fiancée thinks other people don't "deserve," in the service of what she thinks she does. What will happen if she's caught, now or the next time or the next? What can you trust, from this day forward?
Please protect yourself.
posted by armeowda at 8:48 AM on November 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
I have a friend whose unvaccinated sister thought it was no big deal to visit her mother and her mother's boyfriend because both of them were vaccinated. Turns out the sister was in the early stages of a covid infection, which she transmitted to her mother and her mother's boyfriend. The sister died. More importantly, in my view, the boyfriend died as well. The sister behaved terribly and was the proximate cause of another's death. But at least the people she infected were aware that she was unvaccinated and knowingly took that risk. Going so far as to forge a vaccination card in order to attend a music event amounts to willfully lying to every attendee at that event and willfully exposing them all to the possibility of contracting covid without their consent. This is morally reprehensible behavior. Perhaps your fiancé hasn't thought this through. I hope she does think it through, and that further reflection leads to a decision not to forge the vaccination card and not to attend the music event.
posted by slkinsey at 8:51 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 8:51 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
I’m sitting in bed reading this, probably with COVID, because I trusted a friend who was sure she had a cold and rode 2 hours with her to a weekend with friends. HOWEVER, she’s vaxxed and I’m vaxxed, so at least our illness and recovery time should be shortened. Also, I’m keeping our other friends in the loop re: my test, isolating, trying not to spread things further.
What responsibility do you see your fiancee taking if she gets sick after the concert? Will she contact the venue so they can put out an alert to other attendees? Will she quarantine? How will she keep others as safe as she can if she’s willing to endanger others in this way just to go to the show?
posted by epj at 9:06 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
What responsibility do you see your fiancee taking if she gets sick after the concert? Will she contact the venue so they can put out an alert to other attendees? Will she quarantine? How will she keep others as safe as she can if she’s willing to endanger others in this way just to go to the show?
posted by epj at 9:06 AM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
FBI would be happy to intervene.. If You Make or Buy a Fake COVID-19 Vaccination Record Card, You Endanger Yourself and Those Around You, and You Are Breaking the Law
posted by Riverine at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Riverine at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Just to add to the "company you keep" aspect of this: if we were friends, and I found out that your unvax'd fiancee was committing fraud (much less fraud to go to a nonessential luxury like a concert!)... we would no longer be friends. I would judge you by your SO and the two of you combined would not be good for my anxieties or my sense of of fairness and communal responsibility.
posted by TwoStride at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2021 [26 favorites]
Where are these massive side-effects and "unknown/adverse" reactions?
Reported frequently in right-wing media, that's where. Seconding the suggestion to browse the HCA Reddit with your fiancé.
she says that I'm judging her.
And why not? Isn't that an aspect of selecting a partner? Along with rejecting those who don't meet your standards?
posted by Rash at 9:33 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Reported frequently in right-wing media, that's where. Seconding the suggestion to browse the HCA Reddit with your fiancé.
she says that I'm judging her.
And why not? Isn't that an aspect of selecting a partner? Along with rejecting those who don't meet your standards?
posted by Rash at 9:33 AM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
In case you try reasoning with her: I have a now-only-kind-of friend who also rolled out the 'I don't know what's in it' excuseplanation. I had two things I was tempted to say: 1. Have you looked? If I recall right, it isn't actually hard to find out. But doing so would be a waste of time for most of us, because 2. You don't know what's in ANYTHING. You take several risks a day involving having zero clue about safety. Do you understand how your car works sufficiently to be sure it won't blow up while you're driving it? Can you explain the reason why your phone and computer aren't giving you deadly radiation? What's the mechanism of action of frickin' St Johns wort? Most of us don't actually know shit about shit, but we don't let that stop us.
posted by troywestfield at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by troywestfield at 10:05 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
Then there’s the “better you judging her than a judge judging her“—angle to be considered.
I don’t know. I would probably be tempted to leave this person behind, why? Because this might not be the last time that your ethics outlooks don’t line up.
posted by Namlit at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don’t know. I would probably be tempted to leave this person behind, why? Because this might not be the last time that your ethics outlooks don’t line up.
posted by Namlit at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
You are judging her, legitimately so. She's choosing to forge a document to participate in entertainment. She sees it as a minor infraction; you don't want any part of it. We are still in a Pandemic; at least 1,222 people in the US died in the last week. The US is doing worse than most countries at controlling the Pandemic, because people are declining vaccination and going out and traveling while unvaxxed.
I describe her behavior as significantly not okay and judge her harshly. She can choose to be unvaxxed, a bad choice, and I will think her foolish and lacking in civic responsibility. If she forges a document, I think she should be arrested and at least fined.
posted by theora55 at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
I describe her behavior as significantly not okay and judge her harshly. She can choose to be unvaxxed, a bad choice, and I will think her foolish and lacking in civic responsibility. If she forges a document, I think she should be arrested and at least fined.
posted by theora55 at 11:07 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
she’s scared that she ... doesn’t know what’s in it.
I will limit my comments to this component. I am speaking in my capacity as a (pissed-off) scientist.
1. She doubtlessly ingests, applies and breathes dozens of things daily that she "doesn't know what's in". Moreover, it's far, far, far more likely that one of those has ingredients (additives to supplements, lotions, foods) with long-term effects, than the vaccine.
1a. Here's a dirty secret: many if not most drugs we use, especially psychoactive drugs, act in ways we don't even come close to understanding. They just ... work, within a dose range, for some condition. Even if we "know" the chemical that's in them, and can identify -a- biological mechanism for action, the brain is complicated. Very, very complicated.
1b. If she got Covid, would she also refuse those treatments on this basis? Does she eschew other medical treatments based on not knowing what's in them?
2. The list of ingredients is in fact available; here's a simplified version. She can know what's in it, if this is a literal concern. It's a short list, especially for the mRNA vaccines. The claim of "don't know what's in it" is only because she has not asked.
3. What would it mean for her to know what's in it? Does she want a PhD in biochemistry first? Is that her bar for everyone who takes it?
4. Among the people who do know what's in it -- MDs, scientists -- 99.99% of us were clamoring to get in line to get it. We know what's in it, we know how it works, and damn we want it (and give silent thanks to Katalin Kariko, who devoted her life's work to this cause, unrecognized and to this day underappreciated).
5. DTMFA.
posted by Dashy at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2021 [45 favorites]
I will limit my comments to this component. I am speaking in my capacity as a (pissed-off) scientist.
1. She doubtlessly ingests, applies and breathes dozens of things daily that she "doesn't know what's in". Moreover, it's far, far, far more likely that one of those has ingredients (additives to supplements, lotions, foods) with long-term effects, than the vaccine.
1a. Here's a dirty secret: many if not most drugs we use, especially psychoactive drugs, act in ways we don't even come close to understanding. They just ... work, within a dose range, for some condition. Even if we "know" the chemical that's in them, and can identify -a- biological mechanism for action, the brain is complicated. Very, very complicated.
1b. If she got Covid, would she also refuse those treatments on this basis? Does she eschew other medical treatments based on not knowing what's in them?
2. The list of ingredients is in fact available; here's a simplified version. She can know what's in it, if this is a literal concern. It's a short list, especially for the mRNA vaccines. The claim of "don't know what's in it" is only because she has not asked.
3. What would it mean for her to know what's in it? Does she want a PhD in biochemistry first? Is that her bar for everyone who takes it?
4. Among the people who do know what's in it -- MDs, scientists -- 99.99% of us were clamoring to get in line to get it. We know what's in it, we know how it works, and damn we want it (and give silent thanks to Katalin Kariko, who devoted her life's work to this cause, unrecognized and to this day underappreciated).
5. DTMFA.
posted by Dashy at 11:24 AM on November 11, 2021 [45 favorites]
Hello. Much like FencingGal above, I am one of the random strangers whose life your fiancée might permanently alter or end.
I'm immunocompromised due to rituximab, a B-cell depleting therapy I take to keep my multiple sclerosis under control. I was vaccinated and boosted at the first opportunity, but because of the way rituximab works I probably didn't make very many antibodies in response to vaccination, if any at all, and I'm way more likely than healthy people to get severely ill from covid if someone like your fiancée gives it to me.
My life quite literally depends on the safe, responsible behavior of people around me. This is a terrible, terrifying reality even in the best of times, but thanks to people like your fiancée it is unspeakably awful during a pandemic.
But do you know the very worst part of the whole thing? A year and a half ago your fiancée probably posted a cute picture on Facebook thanking me for my bravery or stood outside somewhere at 7:00 pm and clapped for me or made some other well-meaning gesture like that, because I'm a nurse who works at a big trauma center in a big city and I've been risking my goddamned life for the last eighteen months to continue to go to work and take care of people.
I hope I've made it abundantly clear how truly abhorrent your fiancée's behavior is. How DARE she?
posted by jesourie at 11:26 AM on November 11, 2021 [75 favorites]
I'm immunocompromised due to rituximab, a B-cell depleting therapy I take to keep my multiple sclerosis under control. I was vaccinated and boosted at the first opportunity, but because of the way rituximab works I probably didn't make very many antibodies in response to vaccination, if any at all, and I'm way more likely than healthy people to get severely ill from covid if someone like your fiancée gives it to me.
My life quite literally depends on the safe, responsible behavior of people around me. This is a terrible, terrifying reality even in the best of times, but thanks to people like your fiancée it is unspeakably awful during a pandemic.
But do you know the very worst part of the whole thing? A year and a half ago your fiancée probably posted a cute picture on Facebook thanking me for my bravery or stood outside somewhere at 7:00 pm and clapped for me or made some other well-meaning gesture like that, because I'm a nurse who works at a big trauma center in a big city and I've been risking my goddamned life for the last eighteen months to continue to go to work and take care of people.
I hope I've made it abundantly clear how truly abhorrent your fiancée's behavior is. How DARE she?
posted by jesourie at 11:26 AM on November 11, 2021 [75 favorites]
Ok I have to comment on the “you’re judging me”
As though, being her fiancé you have to unequivocally support her decisions?
You’re allowed to disagree and voice that disagreement fairly.
As a couple you should generally agree on value calls, but at times you will differ and mature people will handle it without resorting to pout-pouty “don’t judge me” defense. Emotionally mature people can handle some level of being disapproved of, and can also love people while disapproving.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:32 AM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
As though, being her fiancé you have to unequivocally support her decisions?
You’re allowed to disagree and voice that disagreement fairly.
As a couple you should generally agree on value calls, but at times you will differ and mature people will handle it without resorting to pout-pouty “don’t judge me” defense. Emotionally mature people can handle some level of being disapproved of, and can also love people while disapproving.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:32 AM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
You should read this person the comments from FencingGal and jesourie and think hard about whether her response meets a basic test of empathy that would merit marriage or any kind of partnership.
You should also sit with this reality for yourself: her justification to you is that she doesn't know what is in a vaccine. It is much, much harder work to fake a fucking vax card than it is to type the phrase "What are the components of the Covid vaccine" and hit "I'm feeling fucking lucky" on Google search. For example, even though I'm busy today, I just took four seconds and did it for you: https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/
So, think about the effort your partner will put into things of importance, versus the effort she'll put into giving you disingenuous responses.
It sounds like you could also do some educating yourself about the vaccine, FWIW. AskMe can provide many resources, and there are already many good AskMe questions and answers on this matter.
Covid is not a joke. Your partner is treating it like it is one, but it has killed over 700 thousand people in this country alone. That's every living person in a city like D.C, or Denver, or Nashville, but of course it's disproportionately just a city made up of poorer, or more ill, less white, or otherwise more vulnerable people. Your partner is showing a willingness to be a vector for that death instead of hauling her dumb ass down to CVS and doing her civic fucking duty.
But anyway, in short, DTMFA
posted by kensington314 at 11:46 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
You should also sit with this reality for yourself: her justification to you is that she doesn't know what is in a vaccine. It is much, much harder work to fake a fucking vax card than it is to type the phrase "What are the components of the Covid vaccine" and hit "I'm feeling fucking lucky" on Google search. For example, even though I'm busy today, I just took four seconds and did it for you: https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/HealthU/2021/01/11/a-simple-breakdown-of-the-ingredients-in-the-covid-vaccines/
So, think about the effort your partner will put into things of importance, versus the effort she'll put into giving you disingenuous responses.
It sounds like you could also do some educating yourself about the vaccine, FWIW. AskMe can provide many resources, and there are already many good AskMe questions and answers on this matter.
Covid is not a joke. Your partner is treating it like it is one, but it has killed over 700 thousand people in this country alone. That's every living person in a city like D.C, or Denver, or Nashville, but of course it's disproportionately just a city made up of poorer, or more ill, less white, or otherwise more vulnerable people. Your partner is showing a willingness to be a vector for that death instead of hauling her dumb ass down to CVS and doing her civic fucking duty.
But anyway, in short, DTMFA
posted by kensington314 at 11:46 AM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
The ticket-takers are going to be seeing a lot of real vax cards; they will know what a real one looks like. If nothing else convinces her, maybe the idea that there's a fair chance she'll be caught will.
posted by sjswitzer at 11:59 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 11:59 AM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Her behavior is anti-science and anti-social. Ask yourself if this is the person you want to tie your fortunes and future to.
posted by vunder at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by vunder at 12:05 PM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
You're not being too critical, as I'm sure you've gathered from the responses here. I think you're underreacting to what I would consider a glaring and severe character flaw in your fiance. She's well within her rights to refuse a vaccine, but that means also respecting the reasonable consequences of that choice. Committing criminal fraud in order to circumvent rules resigned to keep the larger community safer shows that she's wildly selfish and willing to put others at risk because she refuses to experience the consequences of her choice. This isn't a small thing. This shows you what kind of person she is and it's not good.
She's upset that you're judging her because she knows that what she's doing is morally reprehensible and she wants to you pretend that it isn't so. For me, this would no longer be about the concert and would erode my commitment to spend my life together with this person. She's showing you who she really is: selfish, willing to harm others for a frivolous reason, willing to commit a Federal crime in order to get what she wants, and she feels no responsibility toward the wellbeing and safety of the larger community if it conflicts with what she'd prefer to do.
posted by quince at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
She's upset that you're judging her because she knows that what she's doing is morally reprehensible and she wants to you pretend that it isn't so. For me, this would no longer be about the concert and would erode my commitment to spend my life together with this person. She's showing you who she really is: selfish, willing to harm others for a frivolous reason, willing to commit a Federal crime in order to get what she wants, and she feels no responsibility toward the wellbeing and safety of the larger community if it conflicts with what she'd prefer to do.
posted by quince at 12:12 PM on November 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
In Canada, we had this idiot who " presented a fraudulent vaccination certificate to his employer in order to maintain employment"
He fucked around and found out.
Getting charged with 3 Criminal Code offenses.
One was for Uttering a forged document.:
368 (1) Everyone commits an offence who, knowing or believing that a document is forged,
(a) uses, deals with or acts on it as if it were genuine;
(b) causes or attempts to cause any person to use, deal with or act on it as if it were genuine;
Punishment
(1.1) Everyone who commits an offence under subsection (1)
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 10 years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
--
Not much sympathy for the idiot.
People are fed up with this nonsense.
from the news release:
"The Ottawa Police would like to remind Ottawa residents that selling, purchasing, utilizing or knowingly accepting false COVID-19 vaccination credentials (certificate/passport) is a Criminal Offence and offenders will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Participating in such offences puts everybody at risk and fragilizes our community’s public health."
posted by yyz at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
He fucked around and found out.
Getting charged with 3 Criminal Code offenses.
One was for Uttering a forged document.:
368 (1) Everyone commits an offence who, knowing or believing that a document is forged,
(a) uses, deals with or acts on it as if it were genuine;
(b) causes or attempts to cause any person to use, deal with or act on it as if it were genuine;
Punishment
(1.1) Everyone who commits an offence under subsection (1)
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 10 years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
--
Not much sympathy for the idiot.
People are fed up with this nonsense.
from the news release:
"The Ottawa Police would like to remind Ottawa residents that selling, purchasing, utilizing or knowingly accepting false COVID-19 vaccination credentials (certificate/passport) is a Criminal Offence and offenders will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Participating in such offences puts everybody at risk and fragilizes our community’s public health."
posted by yyz at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
"She says that I’m fine with her breaking little laws in other parts of our life -which I am"
This is much more like drunk driving than it is like jaywalking.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:46 PM on November 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is much more like drunk driving than it is like jaywalking.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:46 PM on November 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
When someone tells you exactly who they are, listen.
Your fiancée is telling you who she is. Listen.
posted by xedrik at 1:02 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Your fiancée is telling you who she is. Listen.
posted by xedrik at 1:02 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
I would break up over this. It’s selfish, stupid and utterly immoral.
posted by leslies at 2:06 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by leslies at 2:06 PM on November 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Personally? I think it's up to you to decide how you feel about it.
Personally? I got the vaccine as soon as I could and due to my employment situation I'm tested more than most people, but people on MetaFilter are uniformly and severely more stringent when it comes to COVID than most people. I'm not saying that judgmentally, it's just true, so do realize that. There's no telling, percentile-wise, just how stringent and severe people tend to be about this issue on this website, but just judging from my day-to-day interactions over the last couple years, I'd say > 90%.
Personally? All else being equal, I wouldn't end a friendship or an engagement over this, but that's my personal feeling. What's the progression of this going to be in the next year, next five years? Unrelenting and brutal state biometric registration and enforcement? That scares the shit out of me, even as someone who enthusiastically got vaccinated, but that's just my personal feeling.
posted by vocativecase at 4:01 PM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Personally? I got the vaccine as soon as I could and due to my employment situation I'm tested more than most people, but people on MetaFilter are uniformly and severely more stringent when it comes to COVID than most people. I'm not saying that judgmentally, it's just true, so do realize that. There's no telling, percentile-wise, just how stringent and severe people tend to be about this issue on this website, but just judging from my day-to-day interactions over the last couple years, I'd say > 90%.
Personally? All else being equal, I wouldn't end a friendship or an engagement over this, but that's my personal feeling. What's the progression of this going to be in the next year, next five years? Unrelenting and brutal state biometric registration and enforcement? That scares the shit out of me, even as someone who enthusiastically got vaccinated, but that's just my personal feeling.
posted by vocativecase at 4:01 PM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Regarding whether you are judging her or not, yes of course you are and it's OKAY. We live our lives making decisions and judgements around risk all the time. If she knows what her own values are, and if she is behaving in a manner that aligns with her values, then why does she care what others think?
posted by lulu68 at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by lulu68 at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
What's the progression of this going to be in the next year, next five years? Unrelenting and brutal state biometric registration and enforcement?
Once Covid is brought under control, there will be no need for showing vaccine cards to go anywhere and it will become more like the flu where you get an annual shot and there's some risk of getting ill from it but it's relatively managed. The reason why we have to be vigilant now is there's sufficient infections that it has widespread infectiousness and that the medical system is actively overwhelmed with cases, affecting both patients with it and non-Covid patients.
Which is why all of us are so angry at the fiancé, as not only is she putting herself at risk but now she wants to increase her risk of infecting other people, both of which prevent things from getting under control. (And the longer things stay out of control, the faster we'll get worse variants.)
None of us want to live in a "papers, please" environment, it's what's necessary for the moment, again, because of the refuseniks.
posted by Candleman at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
Once Covid is brought under control, there will be no need for showing vaccine cards to go anywhere and it will become more like the flu where you get an annual shot and there's some risk of getting ill from it but it's relatively managed. The reason why we have to be vigilant now is there's sufficient infections that it has widespread infectiousness and that the medical system is actively overwhelmed with cases, affecting both patients with it and non-Covid patients.
Which is why all of us are so angry at the fiancé, as not only is she putting herself at risk but now she wants to increase her risk of infecting other people, both of which prevent things from getting under control. (And the longer things stay out of control, the faster we'll get worse variants.)
None of us want to live in a "papers, please" environment, it's what's necessary for the moment, again, because of the refuseniks.
posted by Candleman at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
So a lot of people who commit fraud don't really plan to commit fraud. As an accountant student I've been taught about the fraud triangle, the three things that end up motivating fraud: Pressure, Opportunity, and Rationalization. Right now your fiancee has checked all the boxes.
Pressure: She really wants to attend this music event, but there's a hurdle of them requiring a vaxx
Opportunity: She knows the vaxx cards have been easily faked
Rationalization: She believes nothing would go wrong and that we all participate in things like speeding and other petty crimes so she can rationalize that this isn't that different.
In reality, what she is doing is forging a federal government document and she could spend a lot of time in jail for that.
Based on one of your prior questions it looks like y'all have been engaged for 3 years. I'm sure there are other reasons y'all have held off getting married but intention to commit a felony might be a good reason to break it off.
posted by donut_princess at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
Pressure: She really wants to attend this music event, but there's a hurdle of them requiring a vaxx
Opportunity: She knows the vaxx cards have been easily faked
Rationalization: She believes nothing would go wrong and that we all participate in things like speeding and other petty crimes so she can rationalize that this isn't that different.
In reality, what she is doing is forging a federal government document and she could spend a lot of time in jail for that.
Based on one of your prior questions it looks like y'all have been engaged for 3 years. I'm sure there are other reasons y'all have held off getting married but intention to commit a felony might be a good reason to break it off.
posted by donut_princess at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2021 [21 favorites]
She says you're judging her. She would be right about that. Why is exercising judgment wrong?
Your partner's vaccinated friends and contacts are not likely to suffer any ill effects from her callus attitude. If she can guarantee that she won't infect any unvaccinated person before she dies-- in isolation, suspended prone and heavily sedated, with tubes jammed into every orifice of her body, trying to suck air into her bloody lungs--then that's on her. However, should she become ill, your partner may contribute to the rippling effect of bed shortages. People are postponing needed care. A friend of mine just had an emergency gall bladder operation. He had to be flown by mercy flight to two different hospitals before he could find a bed.
Her arguments, as you've characterized them, are weak. They don't even rise above rationalizations. She blows off your concerns by calling you judgmental. If she does get ill, your version of "I told you so" would be small comfort. If she doesn't get sick, then her version of "I told you so" would be, to me, unbearable.
However you stand on this issue, other underlying issues have surfaced. Her apparent lack of respect for you is the topmost issue at hand.
posted by mule98J at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Your partner's vaccinated friends and contacts are not likely to suffer any ill effects from her callus attitude. If she can guarantee that she won't infect any unvaccinated person before she dies-- in isolation, suspended prone and heavily sedated, with tubes jammed into every orifice of her body, trying to suck air into her bloody lungs--then that's on her. However, should she become ill, your partner may contribute to the rippling effect of bed shortages. People are postponing needed care. A friend of mine just had an emergency gall bladder operation. He had to be flown by mercy flight to two different hospitals before he could find a bed.
Her arguments, as you've characterized them, are weak. They don't even rise above rationalizations. She blows off your concerns by calling you judgmental. If she does get ill, your version of "I told you so" would be small comfort. If she doesn't get sick, then her version of "I told you so" would be, to me, unbearable.
However you stand on this issue, other underlying issues have surfaced. Her apparent lack of respect for you is the topmost issue at hand.
posted by mule98J at 5:16 PM on November 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Your fiancé is ok with murdering people. This is the clearest case of DTMFA I think I’ve ever seen.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:17 PM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:17 PM on November 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
The first thing I did upon reading your question was to do a case-insensitive search within the responses to see how many times "DTMFA" came up.
posted by sourcequench at 6:54 PM on November 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sourcequench at 6:54 PM on November 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
I genuinely believe you posted this because you know in your heart of hearts that what she is doing is wrong, and that you know there has been other behavior you are concerned about. That could be her response about judgement in this case, which I trust you’ve considered is a manipulative thing to tell someone you love.
Listen. This is something you really need to consider for how this continued behavior will affect you later on. There’s a great aphorism about how the best day to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best day is today.
Sometimes relationships and truths reveal themselves in their true state, and that is a gift, good or bad.
posted by glaucon at 7:56 PM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Listen. This is something you really need to consider for how this continued behavior will affect you later on. There’s a great aphorism about how the best day to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best day is today.
Sometimes relationships and truths reveal themselves in their true state, and that is a gift, good or bad.
posted by glaucon at 7:56 PM on November 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
I don't think you need any more of the ethical arguments about the situation (add me to the absolute deal-breaker camp on that front), but anecdotally, I actually know someone personally (a former colleague) who literally got arrested for faking a vaccination card. He and his son got arrested at an airport and might go to jail. It was in the news.
posted by Pax at 1:28 AM on November 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Pax at 1:28 AM on November 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
Tell her you are judging her and that being in this relationship doesn’t mean that you automatically enter into a germsharing agreement. Then, dtmfa for even entertaining the thought of forging a vaccine card.
posted by SillyShepherd at 2:29 AM on November 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by SillyShepherd at 2:29 AM on November 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
people on MetaFilter are uniformly and severely more stringent when it comes to COVID than most people
True, and reflective of MetaFilter skewing far more heavily reality-based than most Internet discussion spaces. Though it does seem to me that the vehemence and uniformity of this particular pile-on is among the strongest I've seen, possibly as something of a pressure vent for years of pent-up frustration at having to isolate for far longer than we'd have to if only these But Mah Freedumb idiots would wear the zucking masks and get the zucking shots.
What's the progression of this going to be in the next year, next five years? Unrelenting and brutal state biometric registration and enforcement?
If you believe the right wing noise machine, sure. It's a scenario that might even sound vaguely plausible if you don't take it apart much. That is, after all, exactly what propaganda is designed to do.
But it's not how the United States works. Totalitarians in the United States run private corporations, not the public sector. To the extent that totalitarian structures do operate inside the public sector they all lean conservative, working to undermine the common good by keeping the already disempowered "in their place" and promoting the limited accountability needed to keep doing that.
The real skill of the noise machine operators is they way they pick their talking points to create implicit, unquestioned associations between quite separate ideas like the biological mechanism of immunization, "biometric registration", "unrelenting and brutal" and "State enforcement". Which makes perfect sense: when you're devoted to the maintenance of private power, of course you're going to engage in "no, look over there!" deflection. Government is the problem if you're a billionaire accustomed to doing whatever the zuck he wants to whomever the zuck he feels like whenever the zuck he feels like it.
Public health measures like vaccination mandates are motivated by the same kind of common-good considerations as road safety rules, not some imaginary tinpot dictator bureaucrat's burning desire to centralize government power. Vaccination mandates have nothing to do with biometric registration any more than driver licences do, despite the skilful conflation of "biological" and "biometric" by the noise machine. Opposition to vaccination mandates is as destructive and stupid as opposition to driver licensing would be.
And for what it's worth, in democracies where centralization of power is maintained mainly via the industrial-scale manufacture of consent rather than direct repression of the masses, biometric registration is already here. Far from requiring brutal enforcement, State or otherwise, it's been enthusiastically embraced by the general public in the form of face and fingerprint ID on the "personal" devices increasingly being relied upon as the main way we pay for things. And, exactly as you'd expect in a culture where the totalitarianism is almost all privatized, it's not the Government you end up using biometrics to verify your registration with: it's Apple or Google.
If brutal enforcement is something you oppose, then the trends you need to be working against are the very ones promoted by the right wing noise machine, such as increasing militarization of police, ever more prisons, voter suppression on spurious "election fraud" grounds, cuts to welfare spending and so on. Not vaccination mandates imposed as public health measures in the middle of a global pandemic. Because if you think a beating from the cops is the worst way to die, you simply haven't been paying attention to what SARS-CoV-2 Delta is capable of.
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 AM on November 12, 2021 [35 favorites]
True, and reflective of MetaFilter skewing far more heavily reality-based than most Internet discussion spaces. Though it does seem to me that the vehemence and uniformity of this particular pile-on is among the strongest I've seen, possibly as something of a pressure vent for years of pent-up frustration at having to isolate for far longer than we'd have to if only these But Mah Freedumb idiots would wear the zucking masks and get the zucking shots.
What's the progression of this going to be in the next year, next five years? Unrelenting and brutal state biometric registration and enforcement?
If you believe the right wing noise machine, sure. It's a scenario that might even sound vaguely plausible if you don't take it apart much. That is, after all, exactly what propaganda is designed to do.
But it's not how the United States works. Totalitarians in the United States run private corporations, not the public sector. To the extent that totalitarian structures do operate inside the public sector they all lean conservative, working to undermine the common good by keeping the already disempowered "in their place" and promoting the limited accountability needed to keep doing that.
The real skill of the noise machine operators is they way they pick their talking points to create implicit, unquestioned associations between quite separate ideas like the biological mechanism of immunization, "biometric registration", "unrelenting and brutal" and "State enforcement". Which makes perfect sense: when you're devoted to the maintenance of private power, of course you're going to engage in "no, look over there!" deflection. Government is the problem if you're a billionaire accustomed to doing whatever the zuck he wants to whomever the zuck he feels like whenever the zuck he feels like it.
Public health measures like vaccination mandates are motivated by the same kind of common-good considerations as road safety rules, not some imaginary tinpot dictator bureaucrat's burning desire to centralize government power. Vaccination mandates have nothing to do with biometric registration any more than driver licences do, despite the skilful conflation of "biological" and "biometric" by the noise machine. Opposition to vaccination mandates is as destructive and stupid as opposition to driver licensing would be.
And for what it's worth, in democracies where centralization of power is maintained mainly via the industrial-scale manufacture of consent rather than direct repression of the masses, biometric registration is already here. Far from requiring brutal enforcement, State or otherwise, it's been enthusiastically embraced by the general public in the form of face and fingerprint ID on the "personal" devices increasingly being relied upon as the main way we pay for things. And, exactly as you'd expect in a culture where the totalitarianism is almost all privatized, it's not the Government you end up using biometrics to verify your registration with: it's Apple or Google.
If brutal enforcement is something you oppose, then the trends you need to be working against are the very ones promoted by the right wing noise machine, such as increasing militarization of police, ever more prisons, voter suppression on spurious "election fraud" grounds, cuts to welfare spending and so on. Not vaccination mandates imposed as public health measures in the middle of a global pandemic. Because if you think a beating from the cops is the worst way to die, you simply haven't been paying attention to what SARS-CoV-2 Delta is capable of.
posted by flabdablet at 3:59 AM on November 12, 2021 [35 favorites]
Tell her to read the Herman Cain Awards Facebook page. It’s full of links to people who are now dead, dying or permanently maimed who publicly shared attitudes exactly like hers. I also suggest that YOU read it.
posted by waving at 4:45 AM on November 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by waving at 4:45 AM on November 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would dump this person in a heartbeat and in the note telling her this, I'd include this link: https://bit.ly/3D6DM6O
posted by dobbs at 7:03 AM on November 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by dobbs at 7:03 AM on November 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also don’t quite understand how this would put people in danger if vaccinated people can still get COVID and every attendee should be vaccinated themselves anyway.
I am an American living overseas. The danger your fiancee is putting me in is not Covid. The danger is that of my family members passing away before I can practically get home to see them, with only my other family members without me to manage their care and death, and possibly me losing my job and utterly upending my life if I do go home to assist them.
My father and mother are approaching their seventies and are not getting healthier or younger. My other family members provide them with an exhausting level of care and support that we would normally share much more fairly but which now I cannot share because I am not going to be there. We cannot take much more if this. The separation is straining our family. And the reason I cannot be there is people like your fiancee.
Because of the poor management of the pandemic at home largely owing of the behaviour and choices of people like your fiancee, upon returning to where I am now after a visit to the US I would be sent, by law, to a 21-day mandatory hotel quarantine, at my own expense, even if vaccinated. My job will not let me use paid leave for this time “off” but despite the smaller paycheck, I would still somehow have to pay my rent.
During quarantine here you are fully imprisoned in your room - going into the hallway is punishable with a 4000 USD fine. You can’t usually open the windows and there is no outdoor time allowed, and if you test positive from cross-ventilation in the hotel even once during your three-week stay, you are hospitalised even if asymptomatic. You remain in the hospital until you test negative many times, and then are sent BACK to 14 days of quarantine in a quarantine center or isolation unit in a hospital. Obviously, this is untenable if you have a job or bills to pay, like everyone does, basically. Meanwhile, arrivals back here from other places with less Covid have shorter and more affordable quarantines.
So: because of people like your fiancee, I have not been to the US since Christmas 2019. I fully expect to not see my family at all until, at the earliest, Easter 2023, again because people like your fiancee are making it financially and logistically impossible for me to do so. Quarantine regulations will remain for US arrivals until the US gets its act together.
What angers me about your fiancee’s choices is not my Covid risk; I will be fine. It is that your fiancee’s choices demonstrate how little she cares about how the wider societal impacts of her choices affect her neighbors and fellow citizens like me.
Please end this relationship.
posted by mdonley at 7:08 AM on November 12, 2021 [33 favorites]
I am an American living overseas. The danger your fiancee is putting me in is not Covid. The danger is that of my family members passing away before I can practically get home to see them, with only my other family members without me to manage their care and death, and possibly me losing my job and utterly upending my life if I do go home to assist them.
My father and mother are approaching their seventies and are not getting healthier or younger. My other family members provide them with an exhausting level of care and support that we would normally share much more fairly but which now I cannot share because I am not going to be there. We cannot take much more if this. The separation is straining our family. And the reason I cannot be there is people like your fiancee.
Because of the poor management of the pandemic at home largely owing of the behaviour and choices of people like your fiancee, upon returning to where I am now after a visit to the US I would be sent, by law, to a 21-day mandatory hotel quarantine, at my own expense, even if vaccinated. My job will not let me use paid leave for this time “off” but despite the smaller paycheck, I would still somehow have to pay my rent.
During quarantine here you are fully imprisoned in your room - going into the hallway is punishable with a 4000 USD fine. You can’t usually open the windows and there is no outdoor time allowed, and if you test positive from cross-ventilation in the hotel even once during your three-week stay, you are hospitalised even if asymptomatic. You remain in the hospital until you test negative many times, and then are sent BACK to 14 days of quarantine in a quarantine center or isolation unit in a hospital. Obviously, this is untenable if you have a job or bills to pay, like everyone does, basically. Meanwhile, arrivals back here from other places with less Covid have shorter and more affordable quarantines.
So: because of people like your fiancee, I have not been to the US since Christmas 2019. I fully expect to not see my family at all until, at the earliest, Easter 2023, again because people like your fiancee are making it financially and logistically impossible for me to do so. Quarantine regulations will remain for US arrivals until the US gets its act together.
What angers me about your fiancee’s choices is not my Covid risk; I will be fine. It is that your fiancee’s choices demonstrate how little she cares about how the wider societal impacts of her choices affect her neighbors and fellow citizens like me.
Please end this relationship.
posted by mdonley at 7:08 AM on November 12, 2021 [33 favorites]
I have started writing this comment three times over the past three days.
A dozen years ago, when I first saw my specialist for my chronic illness that includes immune dysfunction, he looked at my history and said, "Don't be vaccinated again unless it can't be avoided." He had been treating the illness for 25 years and had seen people like me worsen from vaccines.
I took the Pfizer vaccines in July. My spouse works in higher ed. I decided it couldn't be avoided.
I have spent the past four months trying to fix all the stuff that's gone newly haywire because of the vaccine. And the vaccine didn't give me any additional freedom of movement - I'm still bedridden.
I *knew* it was highly likely to f*** me up and I took it anyway, because: 1. The risk of what COVID would do to me was greater than what the vaccine would do to me. 2. I still live in a community, even if I'm bedridden, and I believe it's my duty to try to benefit and not harm others in my community.
So for an apparently healthy person to turn to fraud, ignoring the potential ripple effects of harm they might cause, instead of taking a vaccine that is highly unlikely to harm them is absolutely infuriating for me.
Your fiancée is not doing their part to meet the basic expectations of society in a way that they think is harmless and dozens of people are telling you can cause immense harm.
Ask yourself: Is this a battle you want to fight over and over, in myriad ways, for the entirety of your married life, trying to merely convince her of the basic expectations of living in a society? Because someone with this sense of ethics is going to find all sorts of places where the rules don't apply to her, and you, your security, your potential family's security will be constantly at risk, living with that sort of decision-making.
posted by jocelmeow at 9:44 AM on November 12, 2021 [35 favorites]
A dozen years ago, when I first saw my specialist for my chronic illness that includes immune dysfunction, he looked at my history and said, "Don't be vaccinated again unless it can't be avoided." He had been treating the illness for 25 years and had seen people like me worsen from vaccines.
I took the Pfizer vaccines in July. My spouse works in higher ed. I decided it couldn't be avoided.
I have spent the past four months trying to fix all the stuff that's gone newly haywire because of the vaccine. And the vaccine didn't give me any additional freedom of movement - I'm still bedridden.
I *knew* it was highly likely to f*** me up and I took it anyway, because: 1. The risk of what COVID would do to me was greater than what the vaccine would do to me. 2. I still live in a community, even if I'm bedridden, and I believe it's my duty to try to benefit and not harm others in my community.
So for an apparently healthy person to turn to fraud, ignoring the potential ripple effects of harm they might cause, instead of taking a vaccine that is highly unlikely to harm them is absolutely infuriating for me.
Your fiancée is not doing their part to meet the basic expectations of society in a way that they think is harmless and dozens of people are telling you can cause immense harm.
Ask yourself: Is this a battle you want to fight over and over, in myriad ways, for the entirety of your married life, trying to merely convince her of the basic expectations of living in a society? Because someone with this sense of ethics is going to find all sorts of places where the rules don't apply to her, and you, your security, your potential family's security will be constantly at risk, living with that sort of decision-making.
posted by jocelmeow at 9:44 AM on November 12, 2021 [35 favorites]
I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said here already, except maybe this: She is very likely not the *only* person going to this event who will present a fraudulent vax card. One of those people could be infected.
posted by feistycakes at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by feistycakes at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is why we can't have nice things.
Consider the consequences to your own reputation if you aid and abet your fiancé in an illegal activity.
My least confrontational reaction would be to have no in-person contact with her during a quarantine period after the concert, regardless of her preferences. I would not involve myself in her concert plans. I certainly would not provide transportation, or any other support for an illegal act.
Given the nature of concerts and other high-capacity venues, I would insist on a quarantine period even if she was fully vaccinated. This is still potentially hazardous behavior.
The good news is that she didn't lie to you about her risk-taking decisions in this situation. The bad news is that she hasn't told you everything. She knows your views. She is literally telling you that what other people do not know, will not hurt them. Be careful.
posted by TrishaU at 11:50 PM on November 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
Consider the consequences to your own reputation if you aid and abet your fiancé in an illegal activity.
My least confrontational reaction would be to have no in-person contact with her during a quarantine period after the concert, regardless of her preferences. I would not involve myself in her concert plans. I certainly would not provide transportation, or any other support for an illegal act.
Given the nature of concerts and other high-capacity venues, I would insist on a quarantine period even if she was fully vaccinated. This is still potentially hazardous behavior.
The good news is that she didn't lie to you about her risk-taking decisions in this situation. The bad news is that she hasn't told you everything. She knows your views. She is literally telling you that what other people do not know, will not hurt them. Be careful.
posted by TrishaU at 11:50 PM on November 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
Went to a funeral yesterday for a 75 year old lung cancer survivor who died of COVID. People not getting vaccinated and faking vaccination status killed him. He was immunocompromised, vaccinated, old. He didn't stand a chance.
I'm pretty mad he's dead so as far as I'm concerned, unvaccinated people can eat rocks.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:16 AM on November 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm pretty mad he's dead so as far as I'm concerned, unvaccinated people can eat rocks.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:16 AM on November 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Have an update - since I posted on November 11th, the following was published;
More than 7.76 billion Covid-19 vaccine doses have been administered to-date across 184 different countries worldwide
Note - it does not state if these are mRNA or traditional vaccines. (Nor did the previous article I had found from June 2021)
posted by rozcakj at 12:16 PM on November 23, 2021
More than 7.76 billion Covid-19 vaccine doses have been administered to-date across 184 different countries worldwide
Note - it does not state if these are mRNA or traditional vaccines. (Nor did the previous article I had found from June 2021)
posted by rozcakj at 12:16 PM on November 23, 2021
OP, if it's possible to update us please do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:09 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:09 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
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1. Vaccinated people who do still catch Covid have been PROVEN to not only have it be less severe, but they are proven to be contagious for a much shorter amount of time.
2. There are people who can't get vaccinated for one seriously legitimate reason or another - they are allergic to the vaccine, for one.
3. If your fiancee is vaccinated but still gets Covid from going to this event, she may only be contagious for like a day or so - but if she is UNvaccinated and goes to this event, she would be contagious for longer, which makes it that much more likely she could infect another person, maybe someone who CAN'T get vaccinated several days after the event.
4. So this means...the point of your fiancee getting vaccinated isn't just to protect herself and you. It's also to protect the random stranger in the supermarket she asks "hey, can you pass me those canned peas on that shelf up there" three days after this music event.
...Of course you're not being too critical. Your fiancee is saying that her being able to go see a band is more important than the well-being of your community. If anything I'd say you're not being critical enough, and if you'd like ME to be critical on your behalf I'd be happy to do so.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:07 PM on November 10, 2021 [119 favorites]