What is the right thing to do?
October 30, 2021 2:18 AM Subscribe
I need to know if my guilt is leading me astray here - I feel awful that I never warned my ex's new partner about him. She's now pregnant and he's still stepping outside of his relationship. Am I too late? Am I being a coward? What is the moral, ethical choice?
This is a follow up to my previous AskMe.
I blocked my ex and concluded that he was finally out of my life for good. If I know him at all, he's not the sort to put himself out there and risk being turned down, especially not by someone he had previously rejected. He must've felt confident that I'd welcome his advances. And subsequently, getting blocked by me would've been a major blow to his ego. I'm also certain that I'm not the only one he has in his back pocket. Throughout my involvement with him, he was talking to and sleeping with multiple other women and lying about all of it. I know I'm not and never have been special to him. I'm sure that after I blocked him, he went running right to one of his other women for validation.
I recently spent time with a friend whose partner is a close friend of the ex. My friend is aware of what went on with the ex, years ago and within the past few months. She told me that the ex's wife is expecting, and that based on the baby's due date, he must've started searching for me and trying to make contact with me early on in the pregnancy. The pregnancy could very well be the thing that triggered him to reach out.
I tried my best to put it all out of my mind, but it's been a few weeks and I still can't stop thinking that I messed up by not saying something to her long ago - several of his attempts to reel me back in occurred after he began his relationship with her, and his recent actions were of the exact same MO that he used in those past attempts. I think it feels so significant due to a combination of the fact that he is so much scummier than I even thought possible, and that the stakes are so much higher for her now that she's having his baby. I feel awful, the guilt is tearing me up to the point where I can't sleep at night.
Among the few people who know what happened, there is no consensus. A couple friends have said, imagining themselves in her shoes, that they would want to be told the truth, there's no possible innocent explanation for why he reached out to me the way he did, it's in the "girl code" to warn a sister, and when they'd been cheated on in the past it was doubly painful to learn that other people knew and no one said anything. Others, including my husband, think it's better to leave it alone, I have no responsibility to her, I don't have any concrete proof that he was looking to cheat and she's not going to believe me, and getting involved will more than likely end up inviting trouble. Or alternatively, she already knows what he is and has chosen to stay regardless.
I see both sides. Selfishly, I don't want to get involved at all. I'm terrified that he would retaliate against me, and I start dying of anxiety just thinking about typing a message to her. I wish I could wipe all of this from my memory. It kills me that it's been so long and he still manages to take up my energy and time. But I can't seem to put this dilemma out of my head, I feel so, so guilty. And I realize that wanting to absolve myself of this guilt is a selfish motive too.
What is the right thing to do? What would a good, upstanding person do? Is there a black and white answer? Is this something that has ever been tackled by a philosopher or logician? I'm desperate for guidance.
This is a follow up to my previous AskMe.
I blocked my ex and concluded that he was finally out of my life for good. If I know him at all, he's not the sort to put himself out there and risk being turned down, especially not by someone he had previously rejected. He must've felt confident that I'd welcome his advances. And subsequently, getting blocked by me would've been a major blow to his ego. I'm also certain that I'm not the only one he has in his back pocket. Throughout my involvement with him, he was talking to and sleeping with multiple other women and lying about all of it. I know I'm not and never have been special to him. I'm sure that after I blocked him, he went running right to one of his other women for validation.
I recently spent time with a friend whose partner is a close friend of the ex. My friend is aware of what went on with the ex, years ago and within the past few months. She told me that the ex's wife is expecting, and that based on the baby's due date, he must've started searching for me and trying to make contact with me early on in the pregnancy. The pregnancy could very well be the thing that triggered him to reach out.
I tried my best to put it all out of my mind, but it's been a few weeks and I still can't stop thinking that I messed up by not saying something to her long ago - several of his attempts to reel me back in occurred after he began his relationship with her, and his recent actions were of the exact same MO that he used in those past attempts. I think it feels so significant due to a combination of the fact that he is so much scummier than I even thought possible, and that the stakes are so much higher for her now that she's having his baby. I feel awful, the guilt is tearing me up to the point where I can't sleep at night.
Among the few people who know what happened, there is no consensus. A couple friends have said, imagining themselves in her shoes, that they would want to be told the truth, there's no possible innocent explanation for why he reached out to me the way he did, it's in the "girl code" to warn a sister, and when they'd been cheated on in the past it was doubly painful to learn that other people knew and no one said anything. Others, including my husband, think it's better to leave it alone, I have no responsibility to her, I don't have any concrete proof that he was looking to cheat and she's not going to believe me, and getting involved will more than likely end up inviting trouble. Or alternatively, she already knows what he is and has chosen to stay regardless.
I see both sides. Selfishly, I don't want to get involved at all. I'm terrified that he would retaliate against me, and I start dying of anxiety just thinking about typing a message to her. I wish I could wipe all of this from my memory. It kills me that it's been so long and he still manages to take up my energy and time. But I can't seem to put this dilemma out of my head, I feel so, so guilty. And I realize that wanting to absolve myself of this guilt is a selfish motive too.
What is the right thing to do? What would a good, upstanding person do? Is there a black and white answer? Is this something that has ever been tackled by a philosopher or logician? I'm desperate for guidance.
She may not believe you even if you tell her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:37 AM on October 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:37 AM on October 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
I would tell. You don't have anything to lose by telling her what happened. You're not risking a friendship, right? Show her the screenshots. You can't control what happens after that. She might get angry with you, she may not believe you, she may not leave him. But if (when!) things go badly for them later on, you will probably feel guilty for not having warned her. The earlier she knows the better.
posted by stinker at 2:42 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by stinker at 2:42 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Leave it alone. Going no contact can also mean that you tell mutual friends that you don't want to hear information about this person, and you draw a firm boundary there. I understand why you might have raised his contacting you with a mutual friend, but I really don't see what you have to gain by diving back into any interactions with this man. What would you tell her, that he reached out via social media? And what would she do, leave him while she's pregnant? No information that you learned from your friend seems helpful to you. It's drawing you back in.
Your friend and her partner could have warned her off from this guy if it needed to be done. Lots of other people could have. Also, you haven't been with him in years. Because you are in touch with mutual friends, you think you still now him, but what happened to you all was a long time ago.
I'm worried that your desire to reach out is connected to the emotional upset you still feel about your relationship with him. I think this would create a lot of anger and upset and not actually achieve much constructive.
I think you need to let this go. I think you need to go back to true no contact.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:45 AM on October 30, 2021 [59 favorites]
Your friend and her partner could have warned her off from this guy if it needed to be done. Lots of other people could have. Also, you haven't been with him in years. Because you are in touch with mutual friends, you think you still now him, but what happened to you all was a long time ago.
I'm worried that your desire to reach out is connected to the emotional upset you still feel about your relationship with him. I think this would create a lot of anger and upset and not actually achieve much constructive.
I think you need to let this go. I think you need to go back to true no contact.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:45 AM on October 30, 2021 [59 favorites]
Obviously it would be to her benefit to know what kind of a person she married, if she doesn't already.
But you do not have the kind of relationship with her that would make it possible for you to work out how much she already knows, or for her to take your own history as any kind of fair warning. And from reading the situation as you describe it, it seems to me that your fears about pursuing any such relationship are well grounded. So any obligation that might reasonably exist for any such warning to be delivered is not on you.
I think your husband is giving you good advice here, and I say that as a man who thinks of #MeToo as one of the most positive developments I've seen happen in my lifetime.
In your shoes I would be working on ways to keep this horrible prick properly away from my life, not making choices that further entangle me in his web of suck.
posted by flabdablet at 2:48 AM on October 30, 2021 [21 favorites]
But you do not have the kind of relationship with her that would make it possible for you to work out how much she already knows, or for her to take your own history as any kind of fair warning. And from reading the situation as you describe it, it seems to me that your fears about pursuing any such relationship are well grounded. So any obligation that might reasonably exist for any such warning to be delivered is not on you.
I think your husband is giving you good advice here, and I say that as a man who thinks of #MeToo as one of the most positive developments I've seen happen in my lifetime.
In your shoes I would be working on ways to keep this horrible prick properly away from my life, not making choices that further entangle me in his web of suck.
posted by flabdablet at 2:48 AM on October 30, 2021 [21 favorites]
Also, from your question this summer:
I just got married to my sweet, loving husband, we're both in really great places in our careers, we just purchased a beautiful new home together, we're surrounded by wonderful friends and family, and we have everything to look forward to. And in hindsight, I realize what a bullet I dodged.
Please don't mess up what you have now. You've talked about how the ex might be reaching out because his girlfriend is pregnant. You don't know, but you are speculating. Is it possible that your very new marriage and happiness in life is also somehow making getting involved in all this more tempting?
I understand that he manipulated you and hurt you, but I think you really need to move on. Your husband is asking you to. I'm really worried that if you keep getting more information about your ex, and being involved in all this, you are going to hurt yourself and your marriage.
You also said in that post that you "heard through the grapevine" things about him. You need to shut down all this, and really let go and move on.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:50 AM on October 30, 2021 [48 favorites]
I just got married to my sweet, loving husband, we're both in really great places in our careers, we just purchased a beautiful new home together, we're surrounded by wonderful friends and family, and we have everything to look forward to. And in hindsight, I realize what a bullet I dodged.
Please don't mess up what you have now. You've talked about how the ex might be reaching out because his girlfriend is pregnant. You don't know, but you are speculating. Is it possible that your very new marriage and happiness in life is also somehow making getting involved in all this more tempting?
I understand that he manipulated you and hurt you, but I think you really need to move on. Your husband is asking you to. I'm really worried that if you keep getting more information about your ex, and being involved in all this, you are going to hurt yourself and your marriage.
You also said in that post that you "heard through the grapevine" things about him. You need to shut down all this, and really let go and move on.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:50 AM on October 30, 2021 [48 favorites]
It sounds like you don't know the pregnant woman personally, but she's a friend of the partner of a friend? If that's the case, a message from you (her husband's ex) is either going to be ignored or actively dismissed as jealousy.
My advice would be a bit different if you were close friends. Even then, unless she came to you specifically for advice, I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole.
Most importantly, you aren't guilty of anything! You did not make him cheat and you definitely did not make her pregnant. This is more of your ex's sociopathic narcissism, leading you to believe that you are to blame for his bad behavior. Kick this guy and his drama llama ding-dong into the sun.
posted by basalganglia at 2:51 AM on October 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
My advice would be a bit different if you were close friends. Even then, unless she came to you specifically for advice, I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole.
Most importantly, you aren't guilty of anything! You did not make him cheat and you definitely did not make her pregnant. This is more of your ex's sociopathic narcissism, leading you to believe that you are to blame for his bad behavior. Kick this guy and his drama llama ding-dong into the sun.
posted by basalganglia at 2:51 AM on October 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
In your first ask you describe his tactics as love-bombing and then running hot and cold. Essentially creating a lot of emotional drama and obsessive thoughts. I am NOT blaming you but I do want to point out: I think he’s done it again. Your way out before was no contact. I’d stick to that including asking friends not to talk about him with you (and help you not talk about him by reminding you).
posted by CMcG at 2:52 AM on October 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by CMcG at 2:52 AM on October 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
I realize that wanting to absolve myself of this guilt is a selfish motive too.
Only to about the same extent that wanting to avoid sticking your face into a nest of angry hornets counts as a selfish motive.
Nobody has any right to require you to do any such thing, and anybody who thinks they do is just flat wrong.
posted by flabdablet at 2:55 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Only to about the same extent that wanting to avoid sticking your face into a nest of angry hornets counts as a selfish motive.
Nobody has any right to require you to do any such thing, and anybody who thinks they do is just flat wrong.
posted by flabdablet at 2:55 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
It sounds to me like you are having complex, unpleasant feelings that you don't want to be having and that you see the only solution to these feelings as reaching out to someone you don't know well to share your perspective and information, with the intention of it being an act of kindness, which may or may not be perceived as such. This places a lot of power upon another person and their reaction to dictate how you will feel, and whether your choice was the 'right one' for you.
Put another way, if you weren't feeling the way you do now, would you reach out to her? You haven't done so previously and were ok with that, so presumably the difference here is the new knowledge you have through your friend, and what you're making that mean. I don't intend that as a judgement — we learn things and we make meaning and sense out of based on what we know, and that changes as we know it.
Your ex and his pregnant girlfriend are closer to each other than you in time, distance, emotion, and physicality. They are making sense of their worlds with all that extra context too. They will react based on that.
What I'm saying is that I don't think approaching them is going to make you feel better, which is what you want to feel like a good person.
The challenge you have right now IS partly a philosophical and existential one. It's not black and white either. It's this:
What do I need to do, for myself, to feel better and like a good person? And, of all the things that my brain comes up with, which is the one (or ones!) that feels best for me right now?
There is no right or wrong, you can make any decision work.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Put another way, if you weren't feeling the way you do now, would you reach out to her? You haven't done so previously and were ok with that, so presumably the difference here is the new knowledge you have through your friend, and what you're making that mean. I don't intend that as a judgement — we learn things and we make meaning and sense out of based on what we know, and that changes as we know it.
Your ex and his pregnant girlfriend are closer to each other than you in time, distance, emotion, and physicality. They are making sense of their worlds with all that extra context too. They will react based on that.
What I'm saying is that I don't think approaching them is going to make you feel better, which is what you want to feel like a good person.
The challenge you have right now IS partly a philosophical and existential one. It's not black and white either. It's this:
What do I need to do, for myself, to feel better and like a good person? And, of all the things that my brain comes up with, which is the one (or ones!) that feels best for me right now?
There is no right or wrong, you can make any decision work.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I need to know if my guilt is leading me astray here
Sure looks that way to me.
In fact you've already done more than your fair share by standing up in public and saying "this is a thing that happened to me".
Quod internet te absolvit.
posted by flabdablet at 3:26 AM on October 30, 2021
Sure looks that way to me.
In fact you've already done more than your fair share by standing up in public and saying "this is a thing that happened to me".
Quod internet te absolvit.
posted by flabdablet at 3:26 AM on October 30, 2021
I'm someone who thinks it would be a reasonable act to take out a prominently placed billboard to warn women off of a problematic man and even I think you should wash your hands of this.
1. She is already pregnant and no matter what now she is stuck maintaining a relationship with this guy. Information simply cannot change this.
2. You matter here, too. Participating in this doesn't serve you in any way and it is the right and healthy choice to walk away.
3. If you clearly tell a friend "I am done with Ex. Please do not tell me anything about Ex." and this person habitually (more than one or two casual mentions) involves you in stories about Ex, this person is not your friend.
posted by phunniemee at 5:08 AM on October 30, 2021 [28 favorites]
1. She is already pregnant and no matter what now she is stuck maintaining a relationship with this guy. Information simply cannot change this.
2. You matter here, too. Participating in this doesn't serve you in any way and it is the right and healthy choice to walk away.
3. If you clearly tell a friend "I am done with Ex. Please do not tell me anything about Ex." and this person habitually (more than one or two casual mentions) involves you in stories about Ex, this person is not your friend.
posted by phunniemee at 5:08 AM on October 30, 2021 [28 favorites]
You are over-reaching here - the choice to be with him and to have a child lies with her. You are not responsible for her choices (even if they are unwise ones).
posted by pandanpanda at 5:23 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pandanpanda at 5:23 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
You mention that when you were seeing him, he was sleeping with other women and lying about it. How did you find out at that time? If he's still doing the same thing now, isn't there a good chance that she already knows?
From your last post, it sounds like he followed you and liked a post, but never got in contact, right? If it didn't go further, I don't think there's enough reason to justify telling her about this, especially if you aren't already close friends with her. He could deny that it meant anything, and, in fact, nothing happened. If you said something, you'd upset her, with little clear upside.
You also need to think about the ethical way to treat *yourself,* which is to forget about this guy.
posted by pinochiette at 6:11 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
From your last post, it sounds like he followed you and liked a post, but never got in contact, right? If it didn't go further, I don't think there's enough reason to justify telling her about this, especially if you aren't already close friends with her. He could deny that it meant anything, and, in fact, nothing happened. If you said something, you'd upset her, with little clear upside.
You also need to think about the ethical way to treat *yourself,* which is to forget about this guy.
posted by pinochiette at 6:11 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
She is a grown woman who has already made choices. People rarely listen to warnings about their new love from an ex-. You are still deeply invested in his life. It's possible some of your feelings are conflicted because he is moving on with someone new and having a child. This is something to deal with in therapy or by actively moving on in your life - new plans, efforts, people.
posted by theora55 at 6:22 AM on October 30, 2021
posted by theora55 at 6:22 AM on October 30, 2021
To add - I think in a way you may be trying to ensure your suffering was not in vain or pointless by preventing others from experiencing the pain you went through. You seem like a very empathetic person, but perhaps you are projecting too much on her situation as well. You don’t know how how much she knows / does not know and what she is thinking or feeling really.
You need to find closure in other ways and focus on what you have going forward. Put him out of your mind and avoid any further updates on his relationship situation.
posted by pandanpanda at 7:17 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
You need to find closure in other ways and focus on what you have going forward. Put him out of your mind and avoid any further updates on his relationship situation.
posted by pandanpanda at 7:17 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think that you have anything to tell her that would make a difference, based on your previous post. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I don't believe you that you know the history of your relationship and that based on that, he really was attempting to get his hooks in you again.
But, if I were in a relationship where I trusted the guy, and his ex got in touch with me to say he had looked at her linked in page, followed her on twitter, and liked a post, I would think, "so what?" and think it was weird that she even thought this was something worth caring about, or that she was trying to create drama.
If I were in a relationship where I didn't trust the guy, this information would be a drop in the bucket compared to whatever was making me not trust him, not something that was worth you putting yourself out there to get sucked into this mess again.
If you actually knew rather than heard through the grapevine that he was cheating, i.e. if you had some real information, this would be a closer call. Like in the situation where someone hooks up with someone only to find out later that they were married--not a moral imperative to tell the wife, but many people would think it's the right thing to do. Here I don't think you have anything to say other than that he was a shitty boyfriend and, well, if he's a shitty husband too she already knows.
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:26 AM on October 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
But, if I were in a relationship where I trusted the guy, and his ex got in touch with me to say he had looked at her linked in page, followed her on twitter, and liked a post, I would think, "so what?" and think it was weird that she even thought this was something worth caring about, or that she was trying to create drama.
If I were in a relationship where I didn't trust the guy, this information would be a drop in the bucket compared to whatever was making me not trust him, not something that was worth you putting yourself out there to get sucked into this mess again.
If you actually knew rather than heard through the grapevine that he was cheating, i.e. if you had some real information, this would be a closer call. Like in the situation where someone hooks up with someone only to find out later that they were married--not a moral imperative to tell the wife, but many people would think it's the right thing to do. Here I don't think you have anything to say other than that he was a shitty boyfriend and, well, if he's a shitty husband too she already knows.
posted by Squalor Victoria at 7:26 AM on October 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
This is not and was never your situation to "fix". There are always women who fall for charm, love-bombing as you put it in your previous post. Some, like you did, fall very hard and live through a lot of pain. You extricated yourself and moved on to have a good marriage. Congratulations!
If anyone needed to speak gently to the ex's wife it is the friend's partner, the person who is a "close friend of the ex" who knew his previous history. (Really? The close friend of a known liar and manipulator? Sounds like she's got her own issues.) Still, maybe she did speak to the woman and try to let her know what you'd gone through. Probably, though, she didn't, giving the louse yet another pass.
Imagine yourself back in that intense awful/wonderful relationship, trying so hard to figure out what else you could do to make it work. You know now that there was NOTHING you could have done to make things right, but it was a long, hard lesson to learn. How receptive would you have been to one of his ex's sitting you down to warn you about him? Maybe you would have listened, but I suggest you might have defended him all the more, certain that if you only loved him enough he would change. It's so hard to know how someone else will react to potentially devastating news, and in the cycle of abuse, which this was, many romantic partners double down, even get pregnant.
She will eventually figure this out and live through whatever happens, and make whatever choices she is equipped to make. Maybe there are loving grandparents or siblings who will step in and help this mother and child if things go south. Your guilt, while understandable because you are a person with morals who suffered terrible trauma from that hell, and who wants to protect other victims of abuse, is misplaced. The fault lies firmly and only with the ex. You are absolved.
posted by citygirl at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
If anyone needed to speak gently to the ex's wife it is the friend's partner, the person who is a "close friend of the ex" who knew his previous history. (Really? The close friend of a known liar and manipulator? Sounds like she's got her own issues.) Still, maybe she did speak to the woman and try to let her know what you'd gone through. Probably, though, she didn't, giving the louse yet another pass.
Imagine yourself back in that intense awful/wonderful relationship, trying so hard to figure out what else you could do to make it work. You know now that there was NOTHING you could have done to make things right, but it was a long, hard lesson to learn. How receptive would you have been to one of his ex's sitting you down to warn you about him? Maybe you would have listened, but I suggest you might have defended him all the more, certain that if you only loved him enough he would change. It's so hard to know how someone else will react to potentially devastating news, and in the cycle of abuse, which this was, many romantic partners double down, even get pregnant.
She will eventually figure this out and live through whatever happens, and make whatever choices she is equipped to make. Maybe there are loving grandparents or siblings who will step in and help this mother and child if things go south. Your guilt, while understandable because you are a person with morals who suffered terrible trauma from that hell, and who wants to protect other victims of abuse, is misplaced. The fault lies firmly and only with the ex. You are absolved.
posted by citygirl at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's not your job to save her. She's an adult capable of making her own decisions. Maybe she knew. Maybe she did not want to know. You may never find out, but again, it's NOT your problem to fix.
It is also NOT your job to publicize your ex's... misdeeds. In fact, it is likely to lead to legal troubles, and be easily explained away with you being the "bitter ex" in his narrative, out to sabotage his relationship.
While I applaud you for your empathy, this is one that you can't save. And being upset about things you have no power over is unproductive.
If you MUST do something or you can't sleep at night, maybe your friend can pass along a telegram hidden chat address where you can try to be sympathetic, and be truthful, but nonjudgmental. But IMHO, you should leave that to the professionals.
posted by kschang at 8:25 AM on October 30, 2021
It is also NOT your job to publicize your ex's... misdeeds. In fact, it is likely to lead to legal troubles, and be easily explained away with you being the "bitter ex" in his narrative, out to sabotage his relationship.
While I applaud you for your empathy, this is one that you can't save. And being upset about things you have no power over is unproductive.
If you MUST do something or you can't sleep at night, maybe your friend can pass along a telegram hidden chat address where you can try to be sympathetic, and be truthful, but nonjudgmental. But IMHO, you should leave that to the professionals.
posted by kschang at 8:25 AM on October 30, 2021
What is the outcome you are imagining from telling a pregnant, married woman that her husband was unfaithful in his previous relationship and was sending texts to an ex early in her pregnancy?
Because there isn't going to be an outcome. She is way, WAY too invested now, and all of what came before is very easily explained away.
The ONLY think that will change is that an ex you blocked will know you've made contact again, and absolutely no good will come of that FOR YOU. He's going to assume you are trying to break up his marriage, not for the good of a woman you've never met, but because you are jealous and want him back.
Do not open that door. Disaster follows. Make good choices and move your life forward.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
Because there isn't going to be an outcome. She is way, WAY too invested now, and all of what came before is very easily explained away.
The ONLY think that will change is that an ex you blocked will know you've made contact again, and absolutely no good will come of that FOR YOU. He's going to assume you are trying to break up his marriage, not for the good of a woman you've never met, but because you are jealous and want him back.
Do not open that door. Disaster follows. Make good choices and move your life forward.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
You don't know her, or what she knows already...for all you know she is fully aware and doesn't care, or has the resources to leave but is using him too.
Whatever the truth of the situation is, none of the responsibility for managing it lies with you. And anyone who thinks it is is wrong...you need to tell your guilt that.
His bad deeds are not and can not be your responsibility in any way. Focus on the life you do have responsibility for...yours.
If it helps, write down what you wish you could say to her. Pray for her if you are religious. And tell your friend to stop telling you gossip.
posted by emjaybee at 9:06 AM on October 30, 2021
Whatever the truth of the situation is, none of the responsibility for managing it lies with you. And anyone who thinks it is is wrong...you need to tell your guilt that.
His bad deeds are not and can not be your responsibility in any way. Focus on the life you do have responsibility for...yours.
If it helps, write down what you wish you could say to her. Pray for her if you are religious. And tell your friend to stop telling you gossip.
posted by emjaybee at 9:06 AM on October 30, 2021
From your previous question:
“I heard through the grapevine that he's also recently married, but isn't faithful.”
I am fairly certain his current will hear about much more than his attempt to contact you through a similar grapevine. If she hasn’t already.
His relationship with this other person is not your relationship to him.
Not your circus, not your monkeys, and the circus left town ages ago!
posted by calgirl at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
“I heard through the grapevine that he's also recently married, but isn't faithful.”
I am fairly certain his current will hear about much more than his attempt to contact you through a similar grapevine. If she hasn’t already.
His relationship with this other person is not your relationship to him.
Not your circus, not your monkeys, and the circus left town ages ago!
posted by calgirl at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Your responsibility is to yourself. It’s not your job or your responsibility to warn other people about your ex. If it helps you have a more harmonious relationship with yourself, if it helps you feel more aligned with yourself, then that’s useful.
But you don’t know what other people want or need, and even if you did, it wouldn’t — it COULDN’T — be your job to give it to them unless they agreed to your help.
You want to do this for some reason inside yourself that you don’t want to acknowledge, so you’re making up reasons that you “should” do it for someone else’s sake.
Skip taking this on and instead see if you can figure out what’s inside you trying to get you to muck about in other people’s business.
posted by spindrifter at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
But you don’t know what other people want or need, and even if you did, it wouldn’t — it COULDN’T — be your job to give it to them unless they agreed to your help.
You want to do this for some reason inside yourself that you don’t want to acknowledge, so you’re making up reasons that you “should” do it for someone else’s sake.
Skip taking this on and instead see if you can figure out what’s inside you trying to get you to muck about in other people’s business.
posted by spindrifter at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I just want to reiterate that I blocked him. Years ago. I would’ve been very happy to never see or hear anything from him or about him ever again. When he, very much against my stated wishes, knowing that I had not unblocked him from any of my previous accounts, tried to go around those blocks and contact me in new ways, I blocked him again.
If I really wanted this to be my business, if I really wanted his attention, the door was already wide open for me and I slammed it shut. I am honestly looking for help here. It sucks to be in my position and to be told that by not saying anything, I’m enabling him to abuse other women and am therefore responsible. Or to be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of.
I guess to clarify what I’m asking, I’m struggling to argue against the validity of the above viewpoints in my own mind, because I understand them deeply.
When I found out about his cheating on me, long after the fact, I wasn’t mad at the other women. I know very well how blinding his charm is and how easily he lies. In fact I spoke to one of the other women and we both wished that we could’ve found out while it was still happening. In fact, we had each asked him about the other, and he vehemently denied it to us both. I confirmed with her that he did not use protection, and it was through her that I found out there were others. I also imagined how I would feel if I found out my husband was messing around trying to get back in touch with his exes, and I know I would be beside myself. Again, I understand that she’s not me, I don’t know her, and maybe she’s actually just like him. But I also think it’s fair to say that most women are more like me than not.
If anyone still does not believe that my guilt is genuine, I would bet every dollar I have that he still has nude photos of me saved, and one of the reasons I opted not to say anything before was my absolute fear that he would retaliate via revenge-porn. When I say I don’t want that, believe me that I really, really do not want that.
Thank you to those who have helped to poke some holes in the above-mentioned viewpoints that I’m struggling with. These answers have really helped.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2021
If I really wanted this to be my business, if I really wanted his attention, the door was already wide open for me and I slammed it shut. I am honestly looking for help here. It sucks to be in my position and to be told that by not saying anything, I’m enabling him to abuse other women and am therefore responsible. Or to be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of.
I guess to clarify what I’m asking, I’m struggling to argue against the validity of the above viewpoints in my own mind, because I understand them deeply.
When I found out about his cheating on me, long after the fact, I wasn’t mad at the other women. I know very well how blinding his charm is and how easily he lies. In fact I spoke to one of the other women and we both wished that we could’ve found out while it was still happening. In fact, we had each asked him about the other, and he vehemently denied it to us both. I confirmed with her that he did not use protection, and it was through her that I found out there were others. I also imagined how I would feel if I found out my husband was messing around trying to get back in touch with his exes, and I know I would be beside myself. Again, I understand that she’s not me, I don’t know her, and maybe she’s actually just like him. But I also think it’s fair to say that most women are more like me than not.
If anyone still does not believe that my guilt is genuine, I would bet every dollar I have that he still has nude photos of me saved, and one of the reasons I opted not to say anything before was my absolute fear that he would retaliate via revenge-porn. When I say I don’t want that, believe me that I really, really do not want that.
Thank you to those who have helped to poke some holes in the above-mentioned viewpoints that I’m struggling with. These answers have really helped.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2021
Years ago, I was involved with a similar type of guy. We'd broken up and got back together, to co-habitate together in a nice little cozy home.
One day, a strange woman knocked on my door. She was someone he'd gotten involved with during one of our break-ups. She was very distressed, and just wanted to tell her story. It was eery, listening to her relate all the of the love-bombing he'd done, and then I guess he ditched her when we'd gotten back together.
Needless to say, our marriage didn't end well. It took me a long time to get over it all.
I can't tell you what to do. I have often thought about that, him moving on and being a shark toward other women, as I have mutual friends in his hometown and know he is still probably doing the same thing.
However, my late husband said if he ever met the guy, he'd not be pleased, so to speak, after hearing about all of his shenanigans.
One thing you could do, is write a letter, as a draft, and sit on it for a while, before you make up your mind. You don't actually know everything that goes on between two people, after you've moved on. It could just be symbiotic for the both of them, who knows? I am just SO grateful that I never had kids with that guy, yanno?
In the end, it's up to you. I personally have closed that chapter in my life and don't even care or think about that guy, as I found another guy who was soooooo nice and loving and affectionate, I couldn't have asked for a better guy than him. I think most women are smart enough to figure it out for themselves, and unless you are close friends with another women, like warning your girlfriends about a poser, etc. Is it worth it? Stirring up drama? But I really DO understand your inclination, trust me.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:15 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
One day, a strange woman knocked on my door. She was someone he'd gotten involved with during one of our break-ups. She was very distressed, and just wanted to tell her story. It was eery, listening to her relate all the of the love-bombing he'd done, and then I guess he ditched her when we'd gotten back together.
Needless to say, our marriage didn't end well. It took me a long time to get over it all.
I can't tell you what to do. I have often thought about that, him moving on and being a shark toward other women, as I have mutual friends in his hometown and know he is still probably doing the same thing.
However, my late husband said if he ever met the guy, he'd not be pleased, so to speak, after hearing about all of his shenanigans.
One thing you could do, is write a letter, as a draft, and sit on it for a while, before you make up your mind. You don't actually know everything that goes on between two people, after you've moved on. It could just be symbiotic for the both of them, who knows? I am just SO grateful that I never had kids with that guy, yanno?
In the end, it's up to you. I personally have closed that chapter in my life and don't even care or think about that guy, as I found another guy who was soooooo nice and loving and affectionate, I couldn't have asked for a better guy than him. I think most women are smart enough to figure it out for themselves, and unless you are close friends with another women, like warning your girlfriends about a poser, etc. Is it worth it? Stirring up drama? But I really DO understand your inclination, trust me.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:15 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
It sounds as though you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself, as if your reaching out to her will be her only chance to know the truth about this guy and possibly be rid of him. But if he's as bad as he sounds (and ugh he sounds awful! I'm so sorry for what you had to go through!), she will have other data points/red flags/warning signs. Now, could your reaching out be the last straw, the thing that finally helps her see who he really is? Perhaps. But it's just as likely it won't. I think you need to absolve yourself of the pressure of being the Only One Who Can Save Her, because I don't think that's the case.
posted by attentionplease at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by attentionplease at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I just want to say that I don’t agree with the notion that your thinking about him and wondering about details in his life (what his intentions are; whether his wife knows) is because you like drama or can’t mind your own business or any of that stuff. I think it’s understandable that when you feel unsafe about a situation, you might feel the need to gather information that helps you feel like you can orient yourself and anticipate what might happen next. Some people might argue that that kind of thinking is irrational; I’m not your therapist so will not weigh in on whether or not I think it is, only that I believe there are more charitable explanations for how you feel than have been proposed in some of the comments and that I sympathize with you.
posted by chaiyai at 3:06 PM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by chaiyai at 3:06 PM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I found it incredibly illuminating to listen to someone who is diagnosed as narcissistic personality disorder who is trying to do right in the world by talking openly and honestly about what it’s like be near someone with NPD. (I am not saying that this man has NPD and I’m not even speculating in that direction.)
I was really struggling with whether I ought to warn future partners about someone and the guilt associated with not having done so. Here’s what changed my mind, especially after thinking back on some interactions. The guy talking about NPD said that he counts on ex’s reaching out to his current partner and primes them to feel like it’s a reason to TRUST him, not to be wary. Thinking back, I thought of how many times I had heard descriptions of exes who were holding a grudge or were crazy or whatever. I saw how easy it would have been to spin one of them coming to me as a way to pull me in closer because look he said this thing would happen and here it is happening and he can “protect” me from the ex. I don’t think this just applies to people with NPD, but kinda generally with people who are manipulative cheaters in relationships. You have to know he would be ready for anything at all you had to say. And that it very likely would be used to further ensnare the woman.
It feels terrible to feel as though there’s nothing you can do. There’s a deep injustice about it! It’s hard to live with. But she’s not a damsel in distress that needs a stranger, and hopefully you aren’t driven to become her friend and let him back into your life that way.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:20 PM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was really struggling with whether I ought to warn future partners about someone and the guilt associated with not having done so. Here’s what changed my mind, especially after thinking back on some interactions. The guy talking about NPD said that he counts on ex’s reaching out to his current partner and primes them to feel like it’s a reason to TRUST him, not to be wary. Thinking back, I thought of how many times I had heard descriptions of exes who were holding a grudge or were crazy or whatever. I saw how easy it would have been to spin one of them coming to me as a way to pull me in closer because look he said this thing would happen and here it is happening and he can “protect” me from the ex. I don’t think this just applies to people with NPD, but kinda generally with people who are manipulative cheaters in relationships. You have to know he would be ready for anything at all you had to say. And that it very likely would be used to further ensnare the woman.
It feels terrible to feel as though there’s nothing you can do. There’s a deep injustice about it! It’s hard to live with. But she’s not a damsel in distress that needs a stranger, and hopefully you aren’t driven to become her friend and let him back into your life that way.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:20 PM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
It sucks to be in my position and to be told that by not saying anything, I’m enabling him to abuse other women and am therefore responsible.
Who is telling you this? Is this someone who knows him and this woman? Then it's on them to talk to her, not you.
You also do not know that he is cheating on her. I know the patterns look familiar, but his liking your status is not equivalent of cheating. Perhaps it was an intent to engage, but it is not the same.
It sounds like there are a lot of people in his life who know what all went down with you. If they are they people who are telling you this is somehow their responsibility, what do they think their responsibility is? If they are still friends with him and not talking to this woman, then they are enabling this behavior.
I think you are too much in the weeds and assuming too many truths. I know it's hard. The problem is that you have any information about him at all. That's the problem. You are not responsible for his behavior to you or anyone else, especially because what you have proposed to do in talking to her would 1) likely not achieve anything and 2) be incredibly damaging to you.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:34 PM on October 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Who is telling you this? Is this someone who knows him and this woman? Then it's on them to talk to her, not you.
You also do not know that he is cheating on her. I know the patterns look familiar, but his liking your status is not equivalent of cheating. Perhaps it was an intent to engage, but it is not the same.
It sounds like there are a lot of people in his life who know what all went down with you. If they are they people who are telling you this is somehow their responsibility, what do they think their responsibility is? If they are still friends with him and not talking to this woman, then they are enabling this behavior.
I think you are too much in the weeds and assuming too many truths. I know it's hard. The problem is that you have any information about him at all. That's the problem. You are not responsible for his behavior to you or anyone else, especially because what you have proposed to do in talking to her would 1) likely not achieve anything and 2) be incredibly damaging to you.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:34 PM on October 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
told that by not saying anything, I’m enabling him to abuse other women and am therefore responsible.
WTF? I'm also wondering who told you this. Why is it all on you to stop him? I agree that the people who know him and his wife are in a better position and the responsibility should be on them to tell her what they know happened between you and him.
I don’t know her
This is the key part. You don't know her. Therefore, why would she listen to anything you say? What useful info would you have to give her? That he tried to contact you when she was first pregnant (I know that was very traumatic to you, but she would not have the same reaction because she's not you/doesn't have that history with him, even if she is with him now), and how he treated you during your relationship YEARS ago? She could think you're the crazy ex, she would tell him that you talked to her, he would discredit you to her and who knows what he would do to you in possible retaliation (you would be the best judge of that of course).
be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of.
That's a different situation. It's one thing to find out that all your *friends* knew you were being cheating on. But again, you don't know her, she is not your friend, therefore you don't have a responsibility to her. Furthermore, it doesn't sound like you know for sure that he was cheating on her. Him contacting you is not cheating. It may be a flag, but again, how is that useful information for her?
She told me that the ex's wife is expecting
I agree with others who have said to tell all your mutual friends to not tell you anything about the ex. (And why are some of your friends still friends with your ex...? Anyway.)
You've been no contact for years. When he tried to contact you, you shut that all down. Trying to contact the ex is going to set you back and bring back all those old memories and trauma. Don't do it. Protect yourself. Maybe take a break from the friends who believe you are The Only One Who Can Save Her (geez...).
posted by foxjacket at 5:06 PM on October 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
WTF? I'm also wondering who told you this. Why is it all on you to stop him? I agree that the people who know him and his wife are in a better position and the responsibility should be on them to tell her what they know happened between you and him.
I don’t know her
This is the key part. You don't know her. Therefore, why would she listen to anything you say? What useful info would you have to give her? That he tried to contact you when she was first pregnant (I know that was very traumatic to you, but she would not have the same reaction because she's not you/doesn't have that history with him, even if she is with him now), and how he treated you during your relationship YEARS ago? She could think you're the crazy ex, she would tell him that you talked to her, he would discredit you to her and who knows what he would do to you in possible retaliation (you would be the best judge of that of course).
be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of.
That's a different situation. It's one thing to find out that all your *friends* knew you were being cheating on. But again, you don't know her, she is not your friend, therefore you don't have a responsibility to her. Furthermore, it doesn't sound like you know for sure that he was cheating on her. Him contacting you is not cheating. It may be a flag, but again, how is that useful information for her?
She told me that the ex's wife is expecting
I agree with others who have said to tell all your mutual friends to not tell you anything about the ex. (And why are some of your friends still friends with your ex...? Anyway.)
You've been no contact for years. When he tried to contact you, you shut that all down. Trying to contact the ex is going to set you back and bring back all those old memories and trauma. Don't do it. Protect yourself. Maybe take a break from the friends who believe you are The Only One Who Can Save Her (geez...).
posted by foxjacket at 5:06 PM on October 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
You asked whether this has something philosophers have ever tackled. I'm sure plenty have, but philosophy doesn't solve tricky moral dilemmas. If anything, tricky dilemmas are used to test different moral frameworks. I wonder if applying a couple different frameworks might help you think this through, though:
You could compare the costs/risks and benefits of talking to her. You know that the risk to yourself is high. There's also a big emotional cost of continuing to engage. Whatever the outcome, she would undergo significant stress during her pregnancy if you talked to her. As others have pointed out, it's possible she'd just double down and be more likely to stay with him. There's some (maybe small) possibility that he has reformed and is no longer an asshat, and talking to her could cause a lot of unnecessary pain. The potential benefit is...she believes you, and she and her child are ultimately better off with this knowledge and from receiving this information from you in particular.
My take on this analysis is that the risks are very high, some costs are certain, the benefits are uncertain, and the risk of failure is high.
Another framework you could employ is to think about your obligations. You don't know this person, so you don't have the obligations that come from a friend or family relationship. Of course, we can have obligations to strangers if we can prevent significant harm without significant risk or cost to ourselves. Remember our risk/cost analysis? I would say the risks clearly exempt you from any obligation.
A search term you might find useful is "moral injury." Your feelings are normal, and you should be kind to yourself. Also consider that talking to this women probably won't relieve your feelings if there are any negative consequences.
posted by Comet Bug at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
You could compare the costs/risks and benefits of talking to her. You know that the risk to yourself is high. There's also a big emotional cost of continuing to engage. Whatever the outcome, she would undergo significant stress during her pregnancy if you talked to her. As others have pointed out, it's possible she'd just double down and be more likely to stay with him. There's some (maybe small) possibility that he has reformed and is no longer an asshat, and talking to her could cause a lot of unnecessary pain. The potential benefit is...she believes you, and she and her child are ultimately better off with this knowledge and from receiving this information from you in particular.
My take on this analysis is that the risks are very high, some costs are certain, the benefits are uncertain, and the risk of failure is high.
Another framework you could employ is to think about your obligations. You don't know this person, so you don't have the obligations that come from a friend or family relationship. Of course, we can have obligations to strangers if we can prevent significant harm without significant risk or cost to ourselves. Remember our risk/cost analysis? I would say the risks clearly exempt you from any obligation.
A search term you might find useful is "moral injury." Your feelings are normal, and you should be kind to yourself. Also consider that talking to this women probably won't relieve your feelings if there are any negative consequences.
posted by Comet Bug at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ok, imagine this. You’re at home, you get a phone call. A woman identifies herself as one of your husband’s exes from years back. She in a panic and tells you that she hasn’t seen your husband in years but he recently looked at one of her social media profiles and liked one of her posts. Then this strange woman tries to tell you that it clearly means he’s a cheater! What would you do?
posted by Jubey at 10:15 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 10:15 PM on October 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
It sucks to be in my position and to be told that by not saying anything, I’m enabling him to abuse other women and am therefore responsible
Preventing hurtful people from inflicting further hurt is a responsibility that falls first on the person doing the hurting, second on bystanders who witness that hurt being inflicted on others, and not at all on people they have already hurt.
Anybody who watched your ex hurt you and is now telling you that you need to step up and warn everybody else who crosses his path is trying to deflect their own responsibility onto you and they need to take a good hard look at themselves.
Or to be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of
The question that needs answering there is: were any of the people who knew (a) somebody your friend would actually have accepted a warning from at the time (b) not already one of the people the cheater had cheated on?
People who have been hurt do occasionally find themselves in a position to prevent the same perpetrator inflicting further hurt, and some choose to do that when they can, but there is absolutely no obligation on them to go that way and any claim that any such obligation exists is both unkind and wrong. When it comes to hurt, enough is enough.
posted by flabdablet at 11:26 PM on October 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Preventing hurtful people from inflicting further hurt is a responsibility that falls first on the person doing the hurting, second on bystanders who witness that hurt being inflicted on others, and not at all on people they have already hurt.
Anybody who watched your ex hurt you and is now telling you that you need to step up and warn everybody else who crosses his path is trying to deflect their own responsibility onto you and they need to take a good hard look at themselves.
Or to be told by a friend what it was like to be cheated on, and then finding out others knew all along and let her be made a fool of
The question that needs answering there is: were any of the people who knew (a) somebody your friend would actually have accepted a warning from at the time (b) not already one of the people the cheater had cheated on?
People who have been hurt do occasionally find themselves in a position to prevent the same perpetrator inflicting further hurt, and some choose to do that when they can, but there is absolutely no obligation on them to go that way and any claim that any such obligation exists is both unkind and wrong. When it comes to hurt, enough is enough.
posted by flabdablet at 11:26 PM on October 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I understand your impulse to want to warn this woman- I have actually done this, warned a woman I didn't know at all when I witnessed her spending time with a man who had been an absolute shitbag to like literally 8 of my women friends at different/various unconnected times. She seemed confused and I hope that my words helped her, but I do not know.
I think this impulse to warn her is noble, and courageous, which is partially also why it feels so scary to consider doing it. If no risk were incurred on your part, it would not really be brave.
However, I think it's worth checking in with yourself to see how you feel about the trauma you have from dealing with this monster. Because in wanting to warn her, save her, you're really trying to save yourself. Is there a chance that hearing about this man triggered you into a spiral? Because it IS anxiety-inducing to hear about people from the past who harmed us.
The way you can save yourself is to forgive yourself. The way to do that is a path you must forge alone.
Unfortunately, this man now has offspring, and a wife. With any luck she'll leave him. But regardless, unless he does something VISIBLY illegal, no matter what he does or who he impregnates or who he abuses, there will be no real consequences for a man like this-- prison is pretty much the only real consequence, and emotionally abusive men almost never face prison time. You DID dodge a bullet, and I think it's important to validate that for yourself that basically this man's life, behavior and subsequent consequences or non-consequences are out of your hands now. I hate to say it like this, because it is so heartbreaking to know that people like this either grift until the jig is up (prison), or die. I am thinking of you and this woman and holding hope for you both for healing and safety.
posted by erattacorrige at 9:55 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think this impulse to warn her is noble, and courageous, which is partially also why it feels so scary to consider doing it. If no risk were incurred on your part, it would not really be brave.
However, I think it's worth checking in with yourself to see how you feel about the trauma you have from dealing with this monster. Because in wanting to warn her, save her, you're really trying to save yourself. Is there a chance that hearing about this man triggered you into a spiral? Because it IS anxiety-inducing to hear about people from the past who harmed us.
The way you can save yourself is to forgive yourself. The way to do that is a path you must forge alone.
Unfortunately, this man now has offspring, and a wife. With any luck she'll leave him. But regardless, unless he does something VISIBLY illegal, no matter what he does or who he impregnates or who he abuses, there will be no real consequences for a man like this-- prison is pretty much the only real consequence, and emotionally abusive men almost never face prison time. You DID dodge a bullet, and I think it's important to validate that for yourself that basically this man's life, behavior and subsequent consequences or non-consequences are out of your hands now. I hate to say it like this, because it is so heartbreaking to know that people like this either grift until the jig is up (prison), or die. I am thinking of you and this woman and holding hope for you both for healing and safety.
posted by erattacorrige at 9:55 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not your circus, not your monkeys. Move on and stay out of it no guilt to be had here.
posted by jmsta at 12:17 PM on November 1, 2021
posted by jmsta at 12:17 PM on November 1, 2021
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If he cheats more or is a jerk to her, she’ll figure it out eventually. During the pregnancy and newborn stage isn’t a good time for upheaval. Even if she hopefully does wise up and leave him later, it’s probably better for her to stick it out a bit longer because she’ll physically need support.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:35 AM on October 30, 2021 [13 favorites]