Body language of rubbing the middle of someone's back when hugging?
October 28, 2021 6:05 AM Subscribe
Minor flirtation, on and off, all plausibly deniable. Then we hugged, a nice, tight, warm hug, and he was rubbing my back up and down, around the level of my bra strap. Does this sound like more of a platonic hug or does it sound more intimate/flirtatious to you?
Technically, yes, this is a question about a person whose behavior I have asked about before. But I am also curious about your impression of this type of hug as a standalone question. So, hit me up with your answers/knowledge!
Technically, yes, this is a question about a person whose behavior I have asked about before. But I am also curious about your impression of this type of hug as a standalone question. So, hit me up with your answers/knowledge!
There are no hard and fast rules or bright lines for this kind of thing as an isolated incident; I have personally given many many platonic hugs to people with whom I'm not the slightest bit interested in travelling down a sexual path, both with and without a gentle rock and back rub.
However, on top of all the earlier back rubs and shoulder squeezing and tear wiping and cheek cupping, it reads to me like part of a definite pattern of behaviour that I personally interpret as much closer to intimate than platonic, and I have to wonder who could be even slightly convinced that denial of this is in any way plausible.
posted by flabdablet at 6:20 AM on October 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
However, on top of all the earlier back rubs and shoulder squeezing and tear wiping and cheek cupping, it reads to me like part of a definite pattern of behaviour that I personally interpret as much closer to intimate than platonic, and I have to wonder who could be even slightly convinced that denial of this is in any way plausible.
posted by flabdablet at 6:20 AM on October 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
The only time I've done this in a non-romantic sense, it was to comfort a friend whose mother had just died. I'm guessing you would have mentioned if there was some traumatic event like that leading up to this hug. Absent that, there is no deniability here, plausible or otherwise. The things you describe in your earlier question are also neither minor nor plausibly deniable. You seem to be ok with it, so whatever, but please keep in mind that this is not normal professional behavior and would raise eyebrows even among close friends.
posted by basalganglia at 6:28 AM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by basalganglia at 6:28 AM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
cis dude and the only people i hug (men or women) are partners, family and long-term platonic friends that i haven't seen in months or years.
posted by noloveforned at 6:35 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by noloveforned at 6:35 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think this is very individual. Is it consistent with previous behavior or a change? This sounds like exactly what gets Joe Biden in trouble. President Biden says he is just a hugger by nature. Others say it crosses the line. I do not know their intent, but the way you interpret it is critical.
posted by AugustWest at 6:43 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 6:43 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I, a cishet male, would never do this to a woman who isn't my wife, barring exceptional circumstances (something tragic just happening maybe?). If I did it to my male friends (who i do hug) they would think its kinda funny, in a humourous way.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
That is very intimate to me. I can think of one person who regularly does that to me, and they're a very close friend.
This is VERY weird behavior from a doctor. And also, you know what? You get to decide how people touch you. If you've spent 2/3 of your questions on this person, it doesn't seem like you're comfortable, or you're into it and are trying to read into this person's actions.
posted by punchtothehead at 6:54 AM on October 28, 2021 [17 favorites]
This is VERY weird behavior from a doctor. And also, you know what? You get to decide how people touch you. If you've spent 2/3 of your questions on this person, it doesn't seem like you're comfortable, or you're into it and are trying to read into this person's actions.
posted by punchtothehead at 6:54 AM on October 28, 2021 [17 favorites]
What I, or anyone else, think about the his body language and what not doesn't really matter. You clearly like him and the attention, so ask him out
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 AM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 AM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think it's impossible not to answer this question without referencing your previous question. You got good advice there.
In the context of that other behaviour, and the profession of the person and their relationship to you, I'd agree that it's intimate, as well as ethically problematic.
Consider whether you want an intimate relationship with this person, after they've demonstrated that they're unable to set professional/personal boundaries. It's your decision as to whether (a) you just want to continue this mutual flirting, or (b) you want to 'make a move' on this doctor (or encourage them to), or (c) you want to get away from the whole situation and change your doctor. People on here will mostly advise (c), but you have your own boundaries and values. Ask him out if you want to, but consider changing to a different doctor if you do.
posted by pipeski at 7:07 AM on October 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
In the context of that other behaviour, and the profession of the person and their relationship to you, I'd agree that it's intimate, as well as ethically problematic.
Consider whether you want an intimate relationship with this person, after they've demonstrated that they're unable to set professional/personal boundaries. It's your decision as to whether (a) you just want to continue this mutual flirting, or (b) you want to 'make a move' on this doctor (or encourage them to), or (c) you want to get away from the whole situation and change your doctor. People on here will mostly advise (c), but you have your own boundaries and values. Ask him out if you want to, but consider changing to a different doctor if you do.
posted by pipeski at 7:07 AM on October 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
In the context of your previous questions this is not plausibly deniable. Whether that's ok is up to you.
As a standalone point, I sometimes do this with some close female friends and they do it to me (a cis het guy, FWIW), particularly and usually when one of us is having a tough time. It is intimate, but that's the point, the women I would do this to or who would do it to me are women I've known for years and sometimes decades. There is an intimacy to our relationships but not a sexual intimacy. Being in a platonic relationship is not mutually exclusive with intimacy.
Would I do this to a woman I didn't know extremely well? No, absolutely not, nor would I welcome it from them. Intimacy in this context means being vulnerable with someone, and that's only for people I trust a great deal.
posted by underclocked at 7:17 AM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
As a standalone point, I sometimes do this with some close female friends and they do it to me (a cis het guy, FWIW), particularly and usually when one of us is having a tough time. It is intimate, but that's the point, the women I would do this to or who would do it to me are women I've known for years and sometimes decades. There is an intimacy to our relationships but not a sexual intimacy. Being in a platonic relationship is not mutually exclusive with intimacy.
Would I do this to a woman I didn't know extremely well? No, absolutely not, nor would I welcome it from them. Intimacy in this context means being vulnerable with someone, and that's only for people I trust a great deal.
posted by underclocked at 7:17 AM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is the doctor again? Come on. To answer your question about this type of hug in general, I have never once had this happen where the man did not turn out to be interested in me. Regarding this dude, plausibly deniable? Right.
posted by HotToddy at 7:21 AM on October 28, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 7:21 AM on October 28, 2021 [15 favorites]
It sounds flirtatious.
It also sounds like you really need a new doctor. Either he's legitimately interested in you, in which case his actions are deeply unethical (see below), or he's taking advantage of the power differential and does this with a lot of female patients. I would run, not walk, from this guy - as a doctor and as a potential partner.
Here's what the AMA says about doctor/patient relationships (if you are not in the US, the rules may be different):
A physician must terminate the patient-physician relationship before initiating a dating, romantic, or sexual relationship with a patient.
Likewise, sexual or romantic relationships between a physician and a former patient may be unduly influenced by the previous physician-patient relationship. Sexual or romantic relationships with former patients are unethical if the physician uses or exploits trust, knowledge, emotions, or influence derived from the previous professional relationship, or if a romantic relationship would otherwise foreseeably harm the individual.
In keeping with a physician’s ethical obligations to avoid inappropriate behavior, a physician who has reason to believe that nonsexual, nonclinical contact with a patient may be perceived as or may lead to romantic or sexual contact should avoid such contact.
Source
posted by FencingGal at 7:26 AM on October 28, 2021 [29 favorites]
It also sounds like you really need a new doctor. Either he's legitimately interested in you, in which case his actions are deeply unethical (see below), or he's taking advantage of the power differential and does this with a lot of female patients. I would run, not walk, from this guy - as a doctor and as a potential partner.
Here's what the AMA says about doctor/patient relationships (if you are not in the US, the rules may be different):
A physician must terminate the patient-physician relationship before initiating a dating, romantic, or sexual relationship with a patient.
Likewise, sexual or romantic relationships between a physician and a former patient may be unduly influenced by the previous physician-patient relationship. Sexual or romantic relationships with former patients are unethical if the physician uses or exploits trust, knowledge, emotions, or influence derived from the previous professional relationship, or if a romantic relationship would otherwise foreseeably harm the individual.
In keeping with a physician’s ethical obligations to avoid inappropriate behavior, a physician who has reason to believe that nonsexual, nonclinical contact with a patient may be perceived as or may lead to romantic or sexual contact should avoid such contact.
Source
posted by FencingGal at 7:26 AM on October 28, 2021 [29 favorites]
I love hugs and am pretty affectionate with close friends and family. If my doctor hugged me (even a side hug) I would be noping all the way to HR to file a complaint. If my doctor hugged me tightly and rubbed my back, I'm running to file a complaint and switching doctors.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 7:49 AM on October 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 7:49 AM on October 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
Nthing the folks here (also cishet guy) who have said they do this with long-time friends where there's platonic intimacy. I do this sometimes, and receive it from others sometimes, as a comfort thing when times are bad. Nothing sexual about it.
But if I received that sort of attention from my doctor — no matter how much I liked them — I would be really disturbed.
posted by Kosh at 8:02 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
But if I received that sort of attention from my doctor — no matter how much I liked them — I would be really disturbed.
posted by Kosh at 8:02 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’m not a jealous person, my fiancé has lots of female friends, but if he hugged one that way outside of comforting someone who was increasingly distraught I would be very upset with him and hurt.
posted by raccoon409 at 8:13 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 8:13 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I wouldn’t call it flirtatious. I’d call it creepy as all hell.
posted by JJZByBffqU at 8:20 AM on October 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by JJZByBffqU at 8:20 AM on October 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
US gay guy here; rubbing a hand up and down as part of a hug is definitely not a casual platonic thing. In this context I'd definitely interpret it as a romantic advance.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
He either is coming onto you or he wants you to want him but he will not requite. Which explains the mixed signals. He could be getting a thrill of intimacy but he really, really will never return the affections and might even enjoy shutting you down and making you feel foolish. If this is the same guy, red flag city. I think you should find another healthcare provider.
posted by amanda at 9:01 AM on October 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by amanda at 9:01 AM on October 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
As a standalone behavior, eh, totally unreadable without context. I would say that both "platonic" and "creepy" are more likely than "normally flirtatious", since that's just not a particular flirtatious move I've ever encountered so if I did it would read creepy as hell. But it would really depend on the rest of how the people involved interact.
In the context of your previous question I still think you need a new doctor.
posted by Stacey at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
In the context of your previous question I still think you need a new doctor.
posted by Stacey at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just to chime in with the chorus: EWWWWW NOOOOOOOOO.
I had a question abt this a few years ago I think and I am sooooo sooooo SOOOOOOO glad I got away from that fucker. I'm sure he's creeping around with his lady patients to present at his new job. It doesn't matter what your doctor's "intentions" are-- or if you feel flattered or excited by his behavior-- this is a HUUGEEEEE no. And he is def doing it to other patients, bc men like this operate this way in general (data point: the creepy doctor I had even TOLD ME that he hit on a 19 yo Russian immigrant patient and that she stopped coming after 2 sessions. Ticked me off even more bc getting intake appts for psychiatry is so challenging and I'm sure she struggled to access resources as a new American and as someone who had likely experienced outstanding trauma. Fucked.) Anyway, if you find his behavior confusing and also somehow flattering, check your self-esteem. Seriously. Predatorial men with some power are like beagles for women who are even a little insecure.
posted by erattacorrige at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I had a question abt this a few years ago I think and I am sooooo sooooo SOOOOOOO glad I got away from that fucker. I'm sure he's creeping around with his lady patients to present at his new job. It doesn't matter what your doctor's "intentions" are-- or if you feel flattered or excited by his behavior-- this is a HUUGEEEEE no. And he is def doing it to other patients, bc men like this operate this way in general (data point: the creepy doctor I had even TOLD ME that he hit on a 19 yo Russian immigrant patient and that she stopped coming after 2 sessions. Ticked me off even more bc getting intake appts for psychiatry is so challenging and I'm sure she struggled to access resources as a new American and as someone who had likely experienced outstanding trauma. Fucked.) Anyway, if you find his behavior confusing and also somehow flattering, check your self-esteem. Seriously. Predatorial men with some power are like beagles for women who are even a little insecure.
posted by erattacorrige at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
>A quick shag every Tuesday on the desk in his office? That's fine.
Umm... no it is very much not??? For a doctor and a patient to do have sex in the doctor's office? Sure it might be hot, and the fact that it is SO wrong makes it hot such that it has its own porn genre, but this is VERY MUCH NOT FINE.
I was gonna type something but on preview, erattacorrige has it.
OP, if you want to date/have sex/marry your doctor and have his babies, no one is going to stop you. We might warn you why that's probably not a good idea, but if that's what you want, then follow the advice of the always-wise Miko in your previous post: "find a different medical provider, call him up as a general citizen and make clear you are no longer a patient or a client, and ask him out and see what happens."
In other words, no more of this wishy washy "He did this. What does it mean? Does he like me? Is he interested?" Leave his practice, find another doctor, call him and ask him out. If he says no, you'll be fine. You'll survive. Come back here if you need help coping with rejection. On the other hand, if you want to continue with these obviously-flirty-crossing-a-lot-of-bad-lines-interactions with your doctor, take a hard look at why you want this to keep happening.
posted by foxjacket at 10:18 AM on October 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
Umm... no it is very much not??? For a doctor and a patient to do have sex in the doctor's office? Sure it might be hot, and the fact that it is SO wrong makes it hot such that it has its own porn genre, but this is VERY MUCH NOT FINE.
I was gonna type something but on preview, erattacorrige has it.
OP, if you want to date/have sex/marry your doctor and have his babies, no one is going to stop you. We might warn you why that's probably not a good idea, but if that's what you want, then follow the advice of the always-wise Miko in your previous post: "find a different medical provider, call him up as a general citizen and make clear you are no longer a patient or a client, and ask him out and see what happens."
In other words, no more of this wishy washy "He did this. What does it mean? Does he like me? Is he interested?" Leave his practice, find another doctor, call him and ask him out. If he says no, you'll be fine. You'll survive. Come back here if you need help coping with rejection. On the other hand, if you want to continue with these obviously-flirty-crossing-a-lot-of-bad-lines-interactions with your doctor, take a hard look at why you want this to keep happening.
posted by foxjacket at 10:18 AM on October 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
I would not consider that a casual hug. To me that seems like a hug for comforting someone (grief, breakup, other bad news). Outside of that context, that would make me uncomfortable.
posted by Garm at 11:08 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Garm at 11:08 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you decide you want to follow the path of "date him", remember a couple of things:
- you're likely not the first, last, or only person he's behaved like this with,
- it'll continue with those other patients even if you guys do get together,
- is being the girlfriend/wife of someone with ethics violations, loss of medical license, and probable criminal charges in their future REALLY something you want to do?
It takes a lot of commitment - or serious dependency issues - to stay with someone like that even if it's well into a long-term relationship by the time it comes to light. Wouldn't you be better off - and happier - to acknowledge the red flags beforehand and remove yourself from the situation, even if you don't have the guts to turn him in yourself?
posted by stormyteal at 1:08 PM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
- you're likely not the first, last, or only person he's behaved like this with,
- it'll continue with those other patients even if you guys do get together,
- is being the girlfriend/wife of someone with ethics violations, loss of medical license, and probable criminal charges in their future REALLY something you want to do?
It takes a lot of commitment - or serious dependency issues - to stay with someone like that even if it's well into a long-term relationship by the time it comes to light. Wouldn't you be better off - and happier - to acknowledge the red flags beforehand and remove yourself from the situation, even if you don't have the guts to turn him in yourself?
posted by stormyteal at 1:08 PM on October 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
The hard truth is you need to find a new doctor either way. If you want to date him ever, you need a new doctor. If you don't, you need a new doctor.
No matter what, you need to remove yourself from this dynamic as it currently stands. Immediately.
posted by nkknkk at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
No matter what, you need to remove yourself from this dynamic as it currently stands. Immediately.
posted by nkknkk at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
Then we hugged, a nice, tight, warm hug, and he was rubbing my back up and down, around the level of my bra strap.
I don't even think that's flirting, I think that is creepy. When I was a young woman dudes (usually older dudes) would do that I felt to see if I was wearing a bar. Gross! I would find age-appropriate men doing that to me nowadays a very weird thing, like not even flirting just weirdly inappropriate touching.
W/r/t doctors. I am decent friends with my doctor, it's a small community, and if he hugged me like this I'd be reporting him.
posted by jessamyn at 1:34 PM on October 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't even think that's flirting, I think that is creepy. When I was a young woman dudes (usually older dudes) would do that I felt to see if I was wearing a bar. Gross! I would find age-appropriate men doing that to me nowadays a very weird thing, like not even flirting just weirdly inappropriate touching.
W/r/t doctors. I am decent friends with my doctor, it's a small community, and if he hugged me like this I'd be reporting him.
posted by jessamyn at 1:34 PM on October 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
I remember your question about your flirtatious (or as jessamyn says more accurately, creepy) doctor; it was quite disturbing. As a standalone incident, I guess I would say it really depends on culture and context, but generally yes, a tight hug with back rubbing is almost certainly not platonic, unless maybe in the context of an extremely emotional moment such as comforting or seeking comfort about a death. In the context of someone who has already been flirtatious/creepy, and highly inappropriately so, I would say there's no question.
If this person is still your doctor please find a new doctor, and please consider reporting them so they don't continue to violate their other patients.
posted by biogeo at 2:38 PM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
If this person is still your doctor please find a new doctor, and please consider reporting them so they don't continue to violate their other patients.
posted by biogeo at 2:38 PM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is a very intimate hug to me. I've never experienced anything like this from a non-family member unless they had intentions.
You either like this doctor or you are creeped out judging by the amount of headspace this is taking. If you like him, he needs to not be your doctor anymore before you decide to pursue anything. My personal opinion is that he is not dateable even then, but you do you. If he is creeping you out, then he really needs to not be your doctor anymore.
I said this on the other question, I'm in a profession where we look at these things, and he would be investigated and disciplined in a nanosecond if we caught wind of this kind of behavior. From experience, you aren't the only one he's doing this to.
posted by BlueBear at 2:41 PM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
You either like this doctor or you are creeped out judging by the amount of headspace this is taking. If you like him, he needs to not be your doctor anymore before you decide to pursue anything. My personal opinion is that he is not dateable even then, but you do you. If he is creeping you out, then he really needs to not be your doctor anymore.
I said this on the other question, I'm in a profession where we look at these things, and he would be investigated and disciplined in a nanosecond if we caught wind of this kind of behavior. From experience, you aren't the only one he's doing this to.
posted by BlueBear at 2:41 PM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I honestly feel it's already strange that a doctor/patient hug is happening in the first place.
posted by augustimagination at 8:17 PM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 8:17 PM on October 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: By the way, I really value everyone's feedback!
At risk of having you all get frustrated with me, yes, I like and am attracted to this guy, but his behavior is literally confusing to me and hard to read. It stays right on the line where I am never sure I am reading it right. There are so many things that can be read two ways. I know this might seem hard to understand from the outside so I hope you can be patient with me (I am not trolling you guys; this is a real-life situation I am struggling with and it's eating me up a bit inside).
> I would not consider that a casual hug. To me that seems like a hug for comforting someone (grief, breakup, other bad news). Outside of that context, that would make me uncomfortable.
I have not had any bad news as of late, but I do generally have a manageable health condition that he has provided support for in the past. So I'm not sure whether the hug could be due to ongoing support or..."inappropriate" (though welcome) flirting.
In other words, is he perhaps trying a little too hard to be supportive--going above and beyond--or is he treading dangerous territory? Again, it's right on the line since it COULD be supportive behavior, right?
When you say it would make you uncomfortable, does that mean you would think it's flirting or lacking in boundaries?
I know it might seem to be an unimportant point, but having the middle of my back rubbed during a hug is something I have never experienced before so I was confused as to how to read it. It seems confusion and lack of clarity is something that seems to be repetitive theme with our appointments! I know you may think I should stop seeing him, but he truly is a great doctor and I also feel a bit addicted to his attention. (I suppose he's got a bit of a hold on me. I know that says a lot about me but I am just being honest).
I will consider asking him out (even though it goes against the grain of some of the advice here) but due to the boundaries between patient and doctor, and the fact that I am shy, it's not something that feels easy for me to do.
Thank you again for your patience and any further thoughts you can offer. I hope you can put yourself in my shoes and understand that when you are in the situation, it can be really disorienting and confusing. Maybe I have problems reading people at times.
posted by MarnieSrpings at 4:59 AM on October 29, 2021
At risk of having you all get frustrated with me, yes, I like and am attracted to this guy, but his behavior is literally confusing to me and hard to read. It stays right on the line where I am never sure I am reading it right. There are so many things that can be read two ways. I know this might seem hard to understand from the outside so I hope you can be patient with me (I am not trolling you guys; this is a real-life situation I am struggling with and it's eating me up a bit inside).
> I would not consider that a casual hug. To me that seems like a hug for comforting someone (grief, breakup, other bad news). Outside of that context, that would make me uncomfortable.
I have not had any bad news as of late, but I do generally have a manageable health condition that he has provided support for in the past. So I'm not sure whether the hug could be due to ongoing support or..."inappropriate" (though welcome) flirting.
In other words, is he perhaps trying a little too hard to be supportive--going above and beyond--or is he treading dangerous territory? Again, it's right on the line since it COULD be supportive behavior, right?
When you say it would make you uncomfortable, does that mean you would think it's flirting or lacking in boundaries?
I know it might seem to be an unimportant point, but having the middle of my back rubbed during a hug is something I have never experienced before so I was confused as to how to read it. It seems confusion and lack of clarity is something that seems to be repetitive theme with our appointments! I know you may think I should stop seeing him, but he truly is a great doctor and I also feel a bit addicted to his attention. (I suppose he's got a bit of a hold on me. I know that says a lot about me but I am just being honest).
I will consider asking him out (even though it goes against the grain of some of the advice here) but due to the boundaries between patient and doctor, and the fact that I am shy, it's not something that feels easy for me to do.
Thank you again for your patience and any further thoughts you can offer. I hope you can put yourself in my shoes and understand that when you are in the situation, it can be really disorienting and confusing. Maybe I have problems reading people at times.
posted by MarnieSrpings at 4:59 AM on October 29, 2021
You don't have problems reading people's intentions. Most people don't give out hugs like this because most people believe in boundaries and respecting other people's bodily autonomy and most people are also worried about coming off as creepy because they CARE about the other person, or at least what the other person thinks of them. And bc most people don't get off on making weird power plays with people who they are literally responsible for. Plus, men who respect women don't pull this kind of crap.
You may like this guy and his "attention", but that at this point may be the bigger thing to investigate than the motives of others.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:09 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
You may like this guy and his "attention", but that at this point may be the bigger thing to investigate than the motives of others.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:09 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
Please don't worry about people being frustrated with you for asking for advice; it's what AskMe is for! If you sense any frustration or judgment coming from people responding to your question, I can assure you it is directed towards your doctor. Doctors have a specific code of professional ethics that they are trained in that his behavior violates. Perversely, that transgression may be part of what gives the flirtation such a thrill for both of you. However that does not change the fact that a physician has absolutely no business giving "mixed signals" (which do not appear to be very mixed based on what you've asked about, but rather are pretty clearly boundary-crossing) to a patient. I'm very sorry to say that a doctor who is behaving this way with one patient, you, is probably behaving the same way with other patients, including ones who don't feel so flattered or receptive to his advances.
It's perfectly okay to feel attracted to this man and enjoy his attention. But I, and I think pretty much everyone else here, think that acting on that attraction would be a terrible mistake. He may be very charming, but his behavior is a clear violation of the code of professional ethics that he has been trained in, and someone who has such a flexible attitude towards ethics is probably going to hurt you one way or another.
posted by biogeo at 5:34 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's perfectly okay to feel attracted to this man and enjoy his attention. But I, and I think pretty much everyone else here, think that acting on that attraction would be a terrible mistake. He may be very charming, but his behavior is a clear violation of the code of professional ethics that he has been trained in, and someone who has such a flexible attitude towards ethics is probably going to hurt you one way or another.
posted by biogeo at 5:34 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
It seems confusion and lack of clarity is something that seems to be repetitive theme with our appointments! I know you may think I should stop seeing him, but he truly is a great doctor
Whatever else he is or isn't, he is not a great doctor. A great doctor does not have "confusion and lack of clarity" as a hallmark of his medical relationship with his patients. A great doctor stays firmly on the correct side of appropriate doctor-patient behavior so that his clients are not left trying to understand what his intentions are. What might be borderline behavior for two people who know each other some other way is not borderline behavior for a doctor; the line is drawn in a very different place in a doctor-patient relationship.
You can make your own decision about what he is like as a person. But as a medical professional he is bad at his job, unethical in his behavior, or both. Maybe he's good at some facets of his job - who knows, maybe he's a great diagnostician! - but he's not a great doctor.
I don't think you're bad at reading people, or trolling, or that you're being frustrating! I think you're being preyed on by an unethical medical professional, and that the disorientation and confusion and self-blame you're experiencing is intentional and cruel on his part. I'm sorry this is happening to you, and I hope you get responses here that are useful to you.
posted by Stacey at 6:59 AM on October 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
Whatever else he is or isn't, he is not a great doctor. A great doctor does not have "confusion and lack of clarity" as a hallmark of his medical relationship with his patients. A great doctor stays firmly on the correct side of appropriate doctor-patient behavior so that his clients are not left trying to understand what his intentions are. What might be borderline behavior for two people who know each other some other way is not borderline behavior for a doctor; the line is drawn in a very different place in a doctor-patient relationship.
You can make your own decision about what he is like as a person. But as a medical professional he is bad at his job, unethical in his behavior, or both. Maybe he's good at some facets of his job - who knows, maybe he's a great diagnostician! - but he's not a great doctor.
I don't think you're bad at reading people, or trolling, or that you're being frustrating! I think you're being preyed on by an unethical medical professional, and that the disorientation and confusion and self-blame you're experiencing is intentional and cruel on his part. I'm sorry this is happening to you, and I hope you get responses here that are useful to you.
posted by Stacey at 6:59 AM on October 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
100% intentionally crossing boundaries because of the power dynamic that exists between doctor and patient.
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 7:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by coldbabyshrimp at 7:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
Your doctor is touching you inappropriately. It's hard to know where you go with that information. He is touching you inappropriately because:
a - he is in love with you and is expressing that in an inappropriate way (maybe)
b - he does not understand the ethical boundaries that are entrusted to his profession (why not? is this a dumb doctor?)
c - he missed the sexual harassment and inappropriate boundaries seminar likely put on by his medical establishment (continuing education is a thing and I'd have a hard time understanding how these issues had not been presented educationally to this inappropriate doctor before)
d - he knows he is being inappropriate and he's testing your boundaries for what you will do with that inappropriate touching (and if this is the case, you are not the only one)
Your question, "What does it mean?", is completely unanswerable in this context because regardless of his private intentions, it is inappropriate. He is not a good doctor, go get some second and third opinions and see if you can find a better match. I'm sorry you are in this confusing situation at the same time that you are navigating health issues. That really is unfair to you. (As well as unethical and illegal.)
posted by amanda at 9:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
a - he is in love with you and is expressing that in an inappropriate way (maybe)
b - he does not understand the ethical boundaries that are entrusted to his profession (why not? is this a dumb doctor?)
c - he missed the sexual harassment and inappropriate boundaries seminar likely put on by his medical establishment (continuing education is a thing and I'd have a hard time understanding how these issues had not been presented educationally to this inappropriate doctor before)
d - he knows he is being inappropriate and he's testing your boundaries for what you will do with that inappropriate touching (and if this is the case, you are not the only one)
Your question, "What does it mean?", is completely unanswerable in this context because regardless of his private intentions, it is inappropriate. He is not a good doctor, go get some second and third opinions and see if you can find a better match. I'm sorry you are in this confusing situation at the same time that you are navigating health issues. That really is unfair to you. (As well as unethical and illegal.)
posted by amanda at 9:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
At the risk of piling on, I want to reiterate that this guy is not a good doctor. What he is doing is explicitly against the law in most (all?) states. I am a female physician, and if I learned that one of my colleagues, male or female, was acting like this toward patients, I would be reporting him/her posthaste to the medical board for investigation.
Whatever your chronic health condition is, I guarantee you there are better doctors out there, ones who won't take advantage of your and other patients' vulnerability for their own thrill-seeking transgression.
posted by basalganglia at 10:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
Whatever your chronic health condition is, I guarantee you there are better doctors out there, ones who won't take advantage of your and other patients' vulnerability for their own thrill-seeking transgression.
posted by basalganglia at 10:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
his behavior is literally confusing to me and hard to read. It stays right on the line where I am never sure I am reading it right.
He is doing this on purpose. Schrodinger's Asshole is a thing where people cross a boundary but keep it vague enough that they can dial it back or pretend it was a joke if someone gets upset with them. He is grooming you by pushing these boundaries in small but deniable ways to see if you will push back. Gross.
posted by soelo at 11:14 AM on October 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
He is doing this on purpose. Schrodinger's Asshole is a thing where people cross a boundary but keep it vague enough that they can dial it back or pretend it was a joke if someone gets upset with them. He is grooming you by pushing these boundaries in small but deniable ways to see if you will push back. Gross.
posted by soelo at 11:14 AM on October 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
In other words, is he perhaps trying a little too hard to be supportive--going above and beyond--or is he treading dangerous territory? Again, it's right on the line since it COULD be supportive behavior, right?
Absolutely not- doctors support people by being professional at all times.
This is not professional, this is not cool, this is not friendly, this is not supportive. Even if you enjoy it.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:02 PM on October 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
Absolutely not- doctors support people by being professional at all times.
This is not professional, this is not cool, this is not friendly, this is not supportive. Even if you enjoy it.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:02 PM on October 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
>it's right on the line since it COULD be supportive behavior, right?
Ok I'm starting to better understand where you're coming from. Because you're attracted to him and welcome his borderline flirtiness (which is actually creepy af behaviour), you're trying to justify his very unethical and illegal behaviour. You're attracted to him, so you *want* to see him in the best possible light, because it's hard to admit you have a crush on someone who's being creepy. But, it happens. You're not a wrong or bad person for being attracted to him and liking the touches and hugs. Attraction happens. What you *do* with it is what matters.
Here's a bad analogy: Imagine someone who has a baby tiger cub as a pet. It's cute, they love it, take care of it, but the thing is, it's gonna grow into a dangerous wild animal that's too much for them to handle and then what are they going to do? Similarly, while you might be enjoying his attention, feeling flattered and special, it is a bad, bad idea to keep seeing him as your doctor, and to *actually* ask him out (yes, I know I suggested that, but only to consider as an option. Please, don't actually do it). I'm worried that you're going to get yourself into a bad, potentially dangerous situation that will be hard to get out of; that you'll have regrets for being so foolish, and feel terrible about yourself. This is why you need to stop seeing this doctor NOW.
Everyone is saying that his behaviour is NOT on the line, it is OVER the line. It is unethical and illegal. It is reportable behaviour. But it seems like you don't want to hear that. And I get it - if you *choose* to see it as flirty/interested, then you might feel ok asking him out and maybe you'll end up dating him and living out that fantasy. But, if you *choose* to see it as effed up, then you have to stop seeing him at the very least, and also report him. The former is more fun (and potentially dangerous, because this guy is a predator and who knows what he would do to you, i.e. sexual assault) than the latter, which is the responsible thing to do, protects you and others, but it's also scary to report someone!
You have to do the un-fun, responsible thing and protect yourself: At the very least, stop seeing this doctor and find another one. Which means, no more fun, exciting opportunities for flirting, plausible deniability, feeling confused/desired/attractive and feeding your addiction.
>When you say it would make you uncomfortable, does that mean you would think it's flirting or lacking in boundaries?
This is a weirdly worded question. The flirting in this situation IS crossing boundaries, so that's what would make me uncomfortable.
>It seems confusion and lack of clarity is something that seems to be repetitive theme with our appointments!
How do you feel about this? Is that ok with you? If you were to make a list of the qualities that you're looking for in a good doctor, would you include "is confusing and unclear"?
Ultimately, OP, what do you want to have happen here? With your doctor, with making this post? With yourself?
On preview: absolutely 100% what soelo said about Schroedinger's asshole. The plausible deniability is calculated, on purpose, manipulative and meant to keep you confused. This doesn't mean you're stupid. It means you're human. And also absolutely 100% what oneirdynia said about what a supportive doctor looks like.
posted by foxjacket at 12:57 PM on October 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Ok I'm starting to better understand where you're coming from. Because you're attracted to him and welcome his borderline flirtiness (which is actually creepy af behaviour), you're trying to justify his very unethical and illegal behaviour. You're attracted to him, so you *want* to see him in the best possible light, because it's hard to admit you have a crush on someone who's being creepy. But, it happens. You're not a wrong or bad person for being attracted to him and liking the touches and hugs. Attraction happens. What you *do* with it is what matters.
Here's a bad analogy: Imagine someone who has a baby tiger cub as a pet. It's cute, they love it, take care of it, but the thing is, it's gonna grow into a dangerous wild animal that's too much for them to handle and then what are they going to do? Similarly, while you might be enjoying his attention, feeling flattered and special, it is a bad, bad idea to keep seeing him as your doctor, and to *actually* ask him out (yes, I know I suggested that, but only to consider as an option. Please, don't actually do it). I'm worried that you're going to get yourself into a bad, potentially dangerous situation that will be hard to get out of; that you'll have regrets for being so foolish, and feel terrible about yourself. This is why you need to stop seeing this doctor NOW.
Everyone is saying that his behaviour is NOT on the line, it is OVER the line. It is unethical and illegal. It is reportable behaviour. But it seems like you don't want to hear that. And I get it - if you *choose* to see it as flirty/interested, then you might feel ok asking him out and maybe you'll end up dating him and living out that fantasy. But, if you *choose* to see it as effed up, then you have to stop seeing him at the very least, and also report him. The former is more fun (and potentially dangerous, because this guy is a predator and who knows what he would do to you, i.e. sexual assault) than the latter, which is the responsible thing to do, protects you and others, but it's also scary to report someone!
You have to do the un-fun, responsible thing and protect yourself: At the very least, stop seeing this doctor and find another one. Which means, no more fun, exciting opportunities for flirting, plausible deniability, feeling confused/desired/attractive and feeding your addiction.
>When you say it would make you uncomfortable, does that mean you would think it's flirting or lacking in boundaries?
This is a weirdly worded question. The flirting in this situation IS crossing boundaries, so that's what would make me uncomfortable.
>It seems confusion and lack of clarity is something that seems to be repetitive theme with our appointments!
How do you feel about this? Is that ok with you? If you were to make a list of the qualities that you're looking for in a good doctor, would you include "is confusing and unclear"?
Ultimately, OP, what do you want to have happen here? With your doctor, with making this post? With yourself?
On preview: absolutely 100% what soelo said about Schroedinger's asshole. The plausible deniability is calculated, on purpose, manipulative and meant to keep you confused. This doesn't mean you're stupid. It means you're human. And also absolutely 100% what oneirdynia said about what a supportive doctor looks like.
posted by foxjacket at 12:57 PM on October 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
I have never had a doctor touch me unless it was to perform an examination. My brother who is an oncologist (cancer specialist) regularly has to tell patients that things aren’t looking good for them. When I asked how he did this - because it has to be a hard thing to do - according to him, his patients receive a sympathetic delivery of the bad news and maybe, maybe, a comforting hand briefly placed on the shoulder. And that’s for people who are DYING. Why? Because anything more is unprofessional and oversteps boundaries. Your doctor is not good news. I’d be looking for another one quick smart.
posted by Jubey at 6:46 PM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 6:46 PM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
From an established friend, if I were obviously in need of comfort, I would find this comforting.
From anyone else, I'd find it surprisingly physically intimate. It would feel like a question - "is this OK?" - to which I could respond either by tensing up and backing out - "nope, don't like that" - or melting into it - "yep, that's great".
posted by inexorably_forward at 7:30 PM on October 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
From anyone else, I'd find it surprisingly physically intimate. It would feel like a question - "is this OK?" - to which I could respond either by tensing up and backing out - "nope, don't like that" - or melting into it - "yep, that's great".
posted by inexorably_forward at 7:30 PM on October 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by kschang at 6:14 AM on October 28, 2021 [1 favorite]