A bad intern, or am I being mean?
October 20, 2021 8:02 PM Subscribe
I don't know if this intern is genuinely not doing a great job, or I am losing my patience.
They have been with us 3 months now, and are always quite lost. For example, they will ask me questions that can be answered by simply looking into the meeting minutes (that I write and send to the whole team after every meeting).
Every time we get them to help me on a project, I have to spend an extra 30 to 60 minutes looking through their work to catch mistakes in formatting, spelling, grammar, etc. This takes up a lot of time. Time that could be used more constructively, especially since they don't seem to absorb any of the constructive criticism I have given.
I have tried telling them privately on our IM system. I have tried video calling them to go through each and every one of their mistakes. I have tried emailing them a recap of the calls where we discuss their mistakes and ways to ensure they don't happen again. I have even written a whole new document for them detailing SOPs and common facts so they can refer to something when they are lost. My recap emails have not been replied to. Ever. And the intern usually NEVER replies on IM, or replies like the following:
Me: Hey, why is the formatting off? The fonts need to be standardised.
Intern: Okay.
More infuriating conversations:
Me: Need your help to prep a report for Client B. Use the same format we used last month for Client A, please.
Intern: Huh?
Me: The report? You helped us compile it last time.
Intern: No, I didn't.
Me: On the 9th of August you prepared a Word document with XYZ details for us. You made a pie chart. Do you not remember?
Intern: Ohhhhhhhhhh. Okay.
Intern: Hi I need help.
Me: Yes?
Intern: I don't know why I can't log in.
Me: Okay, you probably need to use the company username for this. I don't think we have individual accounts for this service.
Intern: I don't have it.
Me: We sent you a document with all the login details when we onboarded you.
Intern: Okay. Send again?
I think this demonstrates the dynamic pretty well. They don't say their pleases or thank yous. They often come to me expecting me to help, which is fine because I needed a lot of help when I started. But they have, most recently, rudely interrupted me while I was discussing a project with my manager for me to help them format a table in Word. And I am getting fed up.
So I don't know what to do. I'm not their manager. Their manager is in a different country, so I don't think they are aware of the intern's behaviour. I have raised my concerns to intern's manager before, but I feel like nothing has changed in terms of her being more careful about making small mistakes, or her attitude. My email recaps aren't working. Speaking with Intern Manager isn't working. I think nothing is working, and now working with Intern is wearing me down.
I think it's further complicated (well, just in my head - it's probably not even a big deal) by the fact that they are the same age as I am, so I feel slightly uncomfortable giving negative feedback. Even the email recaps I send them are framed more in an "Just FYI! :)" sort of tone.
I don't know what to do, and you all are definitely wiser than I am. So, what do I do? Do you think I'm being unfair to Intern?
They have been with us 3 months now, and are always quite lost. For example, they will ask me questions that can be answered by simply looking into the meeting minutes (that I write and send to the whole team after every meeting).
Every time we get them to help me on a project, I have to spend an extra 30 to 60 minutes looking through their work to catch mistakes in formatting, spelling, grammar, etc. This takes up a lot of time. Time that could be used more constructively, especially since they don't seem to absorb any of the constructive criticism I have given.
I have tried telling them privately on our IM system. I have tried video calling them to go through each and every one of their mistakes. I have tried emailing them a recap of the calls where we discuss their mistakes and ways to ensure they don't happen again. I have even written a whole new document for them detailing SOPs and common facts so they can refer to something when they are lost. My recap emails have not been replied to. Ever. And the intern usually NEVER replies on IM, or replies like the following:
Me: Hey, why is the formatting off? The fonts need to be standardised.
Intern: Okay.
More infuriating conversations:
Me: Need your help to prep a report for Client B. Use the same format we used last month for Client A, please.
Intern: Huh?
Me: The report? You helped us compile it last time.
Intern: No, I didn't.
Me: On the 9th of August you prepared a Word document with XYZ details for us. You made a pie chart. Do you not remember?
Intern: Ohhhhhhhhhh. Okay.
Intern: Hi I need help.
Me: Yes?
Intern: I don't know why I can't log in.
Me: Okay, you probably need to use the company username for this. I don't think we have individual accounts for this service.
Intern: I don't have it.
Me: We sent you a document with all the login details when we onboarded you.
Intern: Okay. Send again?
I think this demonstrates the dynamic pretty well. They don't say their pleases or thank yous. They often come to me expecting me to help, which is fine because I needed a lot of help when I started. But they have, most recently, rudely interrupted me while I was discussing a project with my manager for me to help them format a table in Word. And I am getting fed up.
So I don't know what to do. I'm not their manager. Their manager is in a different country, so I don't think they are aware of the intern's behaviour. I have raised my concerns to intern's manager before, but I feel like nothing has changed in terms of her being more careful about making small mistakes, or her attitude. My email recaps aren't working. Speaking with Intern Manager isn't working. I think nothing is working, and now working with Intern is wearing me down.
I think it's further complicated (well, just in my head - it's probably not even a big deal) by the fact that they are the same age as I am, so I feel slightly uncomfortable giving negative feedback. Even the email recaps I send them are framed more in an "Just FYI! :)" sort of tone.
I don't know what to do, and you all are definitely wiser than I am. So, what do I do? Do you think I'm being unfair to Intern?
Is the intern being paid? Because if they aren’t, this is genuinely a learning opportunity for them. You may get some work, but when you frame it as “I am putting in work as a teacher and they are getting value” it can help change the dynamic of “they are a crappy coworker.”
I wouldn’t read into tone on IM, just far too much is lost there.
In teaching we used to say “ask three, then me.” (Aka ask other students about what the homework is so I don’t have 15 people asking me the same thing). Does the intern have anywhere else to go for questions other than you? Can you respond to a question first by saying “did you check the XYZ document first?” And then offer to help if they still can’t find it?
posted by raccoon409 at 8:12 PM on October 20, 2021 [5 favorites]
I wouldn’t read into tone on IM, just far too much is lost there.
In teaching we used to say “ask three, then me.” (Aka ask other students about what the homework is so I don’t have 15 people asking me the same thing). Does the intern have anywhere else to go for questions other than you? Can you respond to a question first by saying “did you check the XYZ document first?” And then offer to help if they still can’t find it?
posted by raccoon409 at 8:12 PM on October 20, 2021 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I forgot to add that yes, they are being paid. They are able to ask other team members, but I have a feeling that they feel like they can come to me more because we're the same age.
If I say, Did you check XYZ document? 9 times out of 10 they will go, What XYZ document? And I will have to go dig it up for them anyway.
posted by antihistameme at 8:15 PM on October 20, 2021
If I say, Did you check XYZ document? 9 times out of 10 they will go, What XYZ document? And I will have to go dig it up for them anyway.
posted by antihistameme at 8:15 PM on October 20, 2021
DO you have to, though? What would happen if you didn’t?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 PM on October 20, 2021 [69 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 PM on October 20, 2021 [69 favorites]
Do you need this person's work to get your own done? It sounds like they're not adding value to your projects, you're not responsible for managing them, and they have other team members they can ask for help. I'd suggest doing without their "help" and becoming a lot less responsive if they ask you questions about other things they're working on. Who are they going to complain to if you don't get back to them fast enough?
Also, if anyone interrupts you while you're in the middle of a conversation with anyone, let along your own manager, the proper response is a blank stare and a matter-of-fact "we're in the middle of something here, you'll have to wait until we're finished."
posted by rpfields at 8:51 PM on October 20, 2021 [16 favorites]
Also, if anyone interrupts you while you're in the middle of a conversation with anyone, let along your own manager, the proper response is a blank stare and a matter-of-fact "we're in the middle of something here, you'll have to wait until we're finished."
posted by rpfields at 8:51 PM on October 20, 2021 [16 favorites]
What's your goal? Is it to get them to improve, to make sure they're not hired permanently, to stop having to waste as much time on them, or just to make peace with their presence and not lose your mind?
I feel like, absent any other context about work culture/power relationships/etc., I'd probably be like "hey, you've been here three months, and that's kind of the honeymoon ramp-up period where it's natural to be figuring stuff out. But now I'm going to have some expectations, like that when you come to ask me a question, it needs to not be something you could find in a few minutes of searching on your own, or something I've already told you in an email. And when I get content from you, I need to not have to spend an hour of my own time fixing grammar and spelling mistakes. This week, if there's something you genuinely don't know how to do, like how to search through your old emails to find information, or how to check that you're following the expected grammar/style/formatting rules, let me know and we'll go over it. But after that, I need you to value my time and be a co-worker that I can count on, on the same level as everybody else."
And after that, if they come to me with something they should know, I'd go with "it's in your email", "we've gone over this - I sent you a written explanation of this already", "the XYZ document. Go find it and then check what it says", etc. You might have to do this in baby steps, like this week you'll focus on getting them to read their own email, next week on what a run-on sentence is and how it needs to not appear in their professional writing, etc.
But the question would be whether their manager and your manager would be okay with you doing this. You say you've brought this up to their manager; have you talked with yours about how this coworker has been adding to your workload while not showing any signs that that's starting to improve?
posted by trig at 8:59 PM on October 20, 2021 [23 favorites]
I feel like, absent any other context about work culture/power relationships/etc., I'd probably be like "hey, you've been here three months, and that's kind of the honeymoon ramp-up period where it's natural to be figuring stuff out. But now I'm going to have some expectations, like that when you come to ask me a question, it needs to not be something you could find in a few minutes of searching on your own, or something I've already told you in an email. And when I get content from you, I need to not have to spend an hour of my own time fixing grammar and spelling mistakes. This week, if there's something you genuinely don't know how to do, like how to search through your old emails to find information, or how to check that you're following the expected grammar/style/formatting rules, let me know and we'll go over it. But after that, I need you to value my time and be a co-worker that I can count on, on the same level as everybody else."
And after that, if they come to me with something they should know, I'd go with "it's in your email", "we've gone over this - I sent you a written explanation of this already", "the XYZ document. Go find it and then check what it says", etc. You might have to do this in baby steps, like this week you'll focus on getting them to read their own email, next week on what a run-on sentence is and how it needs to not appear in their professional writing, etc.
But the question would be whether their manager and your manager would be okay with you doing this. You say you've brought this up to their manager; have you talked with yours about how this coworker has been adding to your workload while not showing any signs that that's starting to improve?
posted by trig at 8:59 PM on October 20, 2021 [23 favorites]
I will have to go dig it up for them anyway.
Do you have to? Can you let them twist in the wind a bit? Or just bluntly tell them, "I sent this to you and you need to find it." It sounds like you're a helpful person, and this intern may be taking advantage of that. They sound genuinely awful. Get them off your projects if you can or try to give them low priority busywork. Maybe you can assign them to assemble a handbook for interns from the materials you've provided. They'll do a terrible job but at least won't be bothering you. Maybe they'll learn something from tracking things down.
posted by Mavri at 9:07 PM on October 20, 2021 [40 favorites]
Do you have to? Can you let them twist in the wind a bit? Or just bluntly tell them, "I sent this to you and you need to find it." It sounds like you're a helpful person, and this intern may be taking advantage of that. They sound genuinely awful. Get them off your projects if you can or try to give them low priority busywork. Maybe you can assign them to assemble a handbook for interns from the materials you've provided. They'll do a terrible job but at least won't be bothering you. Maybe they'll learn something from tracking things down.
posted by Mavri at 9:07 PM on October 20, 2021 [40 favorites]
Your relative age should make no difference to whether you give negative feedback or not - in this organization you are the more experienced person. You can think of it as your "age" at this company being greater than theirs.
Obviously I'm not there with this intern to judge them specifically, but I once worked with a person who did these kinds of things in a self-serving way - playing dumb meant others ended up doing the actual work. I eventually had to say things like "I don't have time to help on this right now, I have something critical I'm trying to finish. You'll have to figure this one out on your own. If I get my task done, I'll come see what you've done"
posted by TimHare at 9:39 PM on October 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
Obviously I'm not there with this intern to judge them specifically, but I once worked with a person who did these kinds of things in a self-serving way - playing dumb meant others ended up doing the actual work. I eventually had to say things like "I don't have time to help on this right now, I have something critical I'm trying to finish. You'll have to figure this one out on your own. If I get my task done, I'll come see what you've done"
posted by TimHare at 9:39 PM on October 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
In general when dealing with learned helplessness from any coworker, I've found that it's good to start setting boundaries. You should determine how and when you help them and make sure they know that they can't rely on you dropping whatever you're doing to help them on a timeframe that's convenient to them.
posted by Aleyn at 9:44 PM on October 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 9:44 PM on October 20, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yes, I'd suggest getting them off your projects and being clear with their manager that there are performance issues with the intern. Use that wording: performance issues, quality of work, impacting your workload, etc. Also, who is responsible for their training in your office, since their manager is elsewhere? Anyone? If no one, that's also a problem, one that you're not in a position to solve unfortunately.
With this level of mistakes and forgetfulness about doing things and receiving documents, I wonder if there's some kind of neurodiversity going on? I'm not an expert by any means and I don't know how you would even broach that.
For the situations where they need help finding things (the login document, information in the minutes), and forgetting things (the report), I'd push back and say, "Please read the minutes again, I'm sure you'll be able to find it" and "Please check your email/files again, I'm sure you'll be able to find it" - i.e. don't help them or do it for them, but send the message that you trust that they'll be able to do it (even if you think they can't). For the grammar, spelling and formatting, maybe say, "Can you review the grammar, spelling the formatting and correct it?" They say they don't know how, you can say, "I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. Use a previous document for reference." They say "Which one?" You say "Any one will do." They say they can't find it, you say, "Keep looking. I'm sure you'll be able to find it."
You're going above and beyond to help them to the detriment of your own work, so you need to push back on them. Send the message that you think they're capable and if they still come back to you all helpless, maybe the message you send is "If you can't find X, then I'll find someone else to do the task or do it myself."
Worse comes to worse, can you assign them a make-work project that if the quality is crap, it won't matter?
Also, it doesn't matter if you're both the same age. They're coming to you for help because... you keep helping them.
posted by foxjacket at 9:46 PM on October 20, 2021 [13 favorites]
With this level of mistakes and forgetfulness about doing things and receiving documents, I wonder if there's some kind of neurodiversity going on? I'm not an expert by any means and I don't know how you would even broach that.
For the situations where they need help finding things (the login document, information in the minutes), and forgetting things (the report), I'd push back and say, "Please read the minutes again, I'm sure you'll be able to find it" and "Please check your email/files again, I'm sure you'll be able to find it" - i.e. don't help them or do it for them, but send the message that you trust that they'll be able to do it (even if you think they can't). For the grammar, spelling and formatting, maybe say, "Can you review the grammar, spelling the formatting and correct it?" They say they don't know how, you can say, "I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. Use a previous document for reference." They say "Which one?" You say "Any one will do." They say they can't find it, you say, "Keep looking. I'm sure you'll be able to find it."
You're going above and beyond to help them to the detriment of your own work, so you need to push back on them. Send the message that you think they're capable and if they still come back to you all helpless, maybe the message you send is "If you can't find X, then I'll find someone else to do the task or do it myself."
Worse comes to worse, can you assign them a make-work project that if the quality is crap, it won't matter?
Also, it doesn't matter if you're both the same age. They're coming to you for help because... you keep helping them.
posted by foxjacket at 9:46 PM on October 20, 2021 [13 favorites]
They are able to ask other team members, but I have a feeling that they feel like they can come to me more because we're the same age.
How quickly are you responding to their questions? I am terrible at setting boundaries and went through this last year with a new employee, right down to them “losing” the detailed notes I’d sent and ignoring multiple direct suggestions to ask specific colleagues or Slack channels. It was especially infuriating because they would follow up with “?????” if I didn’t respond within minutes. After months of this, I realized I’d trained them to expect immediate hand-holding from me even if I was in the middle of a meeting. I started waiting an hour or two and they figured it out. The message threads started ending with “never mind I found it” without me having to say anything. This was all remote - if the intern is interrupting your conversations in person, they may need to be told bluntly to wait.
My irritating colleague does still ask me questions, but these days the questions are actually related to my area of expertise :)
posted by kiripin at 9:58 PM on October 20, 2021 [8 favorites]
How quickly are you responding to their questions? I am terrible at setting boundaries and went through this last year with a new employee, right down to them “losing” the detailed notes I’d sent and ignoring multiple direct suggestions to ask specific colleagues or Slack channels. It was especially infuriating because they would follow up with “?????” if I didn’t respond within minutes. After months of this, I realized I’d trained them to expect immediate hand-holding from me even if I was in the middle of a meeting. I started waiting an hour or two and they figured it out. The message threads started ending with “never mind I found it” without me having to say anything. This was all remote - if the intern is interrupting your conversations in person, they may need to be told bluntly to wait.
My irritating colleague does still ask me questions, but these days the questions are actually related to my area of expertise :)
posted by kiripin at 9:58 PM on October 20, 2021 [8 favorites]
Clearly not somebody you’d want to be offered a permanent job. So in addition to the other excellent suggestions make sure you give formal feedback through whatever channel is appropriate for your organisation.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:30 PM on October 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:30 PM on October 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm not seeing any version of you actually telling them the behavior you *do* want. "My email recaps aren't working" reminds me of times when people (older people) would say "you're doing X" and just leave it there, as though I would be shocked and embarrassed and instantly go, I don't know, rehearse something more when I thought I knew it fine already.
Your intern may have NO IDEA that the overwhelming majority of people you work with don't have to be re-sent instructional e-mails; do assess someone's need to focus -- by looking at who they're relating to, thinking about the scarcity/importance of both people's time, recalling recent relevant development at the company -- before interrupting them; do understand not just the "importance" of "respect", but the actual social mechanisms at play when people say please and thank you, even though those words don't carry obvious information.
You learned this stuff probably from your parents or some other people, whether by explicit instruction or observation. Apparently, this person had different parents than you, and different experiences.
So, IF this is approximately the issue, obviously you can't take on completely socializing this person. But it may be that one or two patient explanations, or one or two carefully researched videos, articles, or online courses, will have a significant effect.
On the other hand, it also could be that your intern is just physically unable to be super astute because they aren't getting enough sleep, aren't getting enough calories (glucose runs the brain!), or are fighting some other condition. A sincere, caring, unintrusive "Are you getting enough sleep? Or are you dealing with something in your life that's affecting your ability to notice and remember things?" will at least let them know that their performance is not at the level of "average"; it could also start a conversation about how they can get enough sleep.
If they are, like I was in college, the only person taking the bus in to work, that could translate to two hours less of sleep every day.
posted by amtho at 11:56 PM on October 20, 2021 [10 favorites]
Your intern may have NO IDEA that the overwhelming majority of people you work with don't have to be re-sent instructional e-mails; do assess someone's need to focus -- by looking at who they're relating to, thinking about the scarcity/importance of both people's time, recalling recent relevant development at the company -- before interrupting them; do understand not just the "importance" of "respect", but the actual social mechanisms at play when people say please and thank you, even though those words don't carry obvious information.
You learned this stuff probably from your parents or some other people, whether by explicit instruction or observation. Apparently, this person had different parents than you, and different experiences.
So, IF this is approximately the issue, obviously you can't take on completely socializing this person. But it may be that one or two patient explanations, or one or two carefully researched videos, articles, or online courses, will have a significant effect.
On the other hand, it also could be that your intern is just physically unable to be super astute because they aren't getting enough sleep, aren't getting enough calories (glucose runs the brain!), or are fighting some other condition. A sincere, caring, unintrusive "Are you getting enough sleep? Or are you dealing with something in your life that's affecting your ability to notice and remember things?" will at least let them know that their performance is not at the level of "average"; it could also start a conversation about how they can get enough sleep.
If they are, like I was in college, the only person taking the bus in to work, that could translate to two hours less of sleep every day.
posted by amtho at 11:56 PM on October 20, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is someone new to this kind of working environment or who hasn't absorbed workplace and professional protocols that you think are expected and the norm. I suspect you are answering all these questions so it doesn't occur to them not to ask. You could also be using some jargon that you're not totally aware of.
Try putting things back more on them. "Look for the meeting minutes I sent after our last meeting." "Please look at Name.doc to see how I want this document formatted." "Please go back and proof for spelling and grammar in this report."
posted by bluedaisy at 12:12 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
Try putting things back more on them. "Look for the meeting minutes I sent after our last meeting." "Please look at Name.doc to see how I want this document formatted." "Please go back and proof for spelling and grammar in this report."
posted by bluedaisy at 12:12 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
It’s frustrating, yes, and it sounds as if you’re doing what you can to encourage them to be more self-reliant. But they’re an intern, learning to negotiate the world of work, colleagues, tasks, attention to detail etc. That can be pretty scary. Different people need different amounts of help, hand-holding, call it what you like. The penny may drop, it may not.
I’ve worked with people like this of all levels and experience and it takes every last shred of patience I have. But, by the same token, I have driven my peers bonkers with one or two things I just could not get my head around. I’m only human!
They obviously trust you, so could you sit them down and coach them in the ways of the workplace? Maybe go for a walk or have lunch with them and ask what help they need and how to best go about asking for it?
It is tough. Some people are very needy when they start out. I hope things work out.
posted by veebs at 3:20 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
I’ve worked with people like this of all levels and experience and it takes every last shred of patience I have. But, by the same token, I have driven my peers bonkers with one or two things I just could not get my head around. I’m only human!
They obviously trust you, so could you sit them down and coach them in the ways of the workplace? Maybe go for a walk or have lunch with them and ask what help they need and how to best go about asking for it?
It is tough. Some people are very needy when they start out. I hope things work out.
posted by veebs at 3:20 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Loads of good advice already so I'll just touch on this:
Even the email recaps I send them are framed more in an "Just FYI! :)" sort of tone.
Stop this. I refer you to an excellent tweet which I can't quite be bothered to find but which essentially read:
A compete course in business writing for women: Delete all the ! from your email before you send it.
It's something so many women do to try and ingratiate ourselves to the recipients of our emails, because we're taught that by sounding authoritative, people might take us for being humourless, gruff ballbreakers, and what could be worse? So we pepper our demands with the text equivalent of light-hearted giggles to show that we're not serious, but if it's not too much trouble, we'd maybe gently suggest possibly doing something if you maybe don't mind? But I mean I'm only joking so it doesn't really matter if you'd rather not!!!
It turns your tone into one of submission, of deference to the others' preferences, and creates a negative loop where people feel like they don't have to take our emails seriously, or take us seriously. I literally have to delete ! from my emails before sending every day because it's such a reflex. Stop that. Own it. Be authoritative. Be gruff. This person deserves it - they're not your friend and they need to start getting some pushback on their constant requests for input, in a format that's tough enough to receive that it might prompt them to look elsewhere first.
And then start doing the same in your emails to other people if you don't already - if nothing else, maybe you can salvage from this experience some practice in using an authoritative tone and really owning the content of your emails.
(I mean - your actual examples sound perfect, but I'm just going on the line I quote above, that says you're tending towards the :)!!! end of the market)
posted by penguin pie at 3:59 AM on October 21, 2021 [28 favorites]
Even the email recaps I send them are framed more in an "Just FYI! :)" sort of tone.
Stop this. I refer you to an excellent tweet which I can't quite be bothered to find but which essentially read:
A compete course in business writing for women: Delete all the ! from your email before you send it.
It's something so many women do to try and ingratiate ourselves to the recipients of our emails, because we're taught that by sounding authoritative, people might take us for being humourless, gruff ballbreakers, and what could be worse? So we pepper our demands with the text equivalent of light-hearted giggles to show that we're not serious, but if it's not too much trouble, we'd maybe gently suggest possibly doing something if you maybe don't mind? But I mean I'm only joking so it doesn't really matter if you'd rather not!!!
It turns your tone into one of submission, of deference to the others' preferences, and creates a negative loop where people feel like they don't have to take our emails seriously, or take us seriously. I literally have to delete ! from my emails before sending every day because it's such a reflex. Stop that. Own it. Be authoritative. Be gruff. This person deserves it - they're not your friend and they need to start getting some pushback on their constant requests for input, in a format that's tough enough to receive that it might prompt them to look elsewhere first.
And then start doing the same in your emails to other people if you don't already - if nothing else, maybe you can salvage from this experience some practice in using an authoritative tone and really owning the content of your emails.
(I mean - your actual examples sound perfect, but I'm just going on the line I quote above, that says you're tending towards the :)!!! end of the market)
posted by penguin pie at 3:59 AM on October 21, 2021 [28 favorites]
Two thoughts.
1. Can you get your manager to take this intern off your projects?
Maybe this is not an option, but i would try. You have an example to use (intern interupting the meeting to get help with Word). If you can make it clear to your manager that the intern hinders you rather than helps you, this should convince them.
2. If your manager is unable to or unwilling to pull the intern off your projects, invest some time in analysing what type of work the intern is good at.
For example one super challenging intern i had (and had to keep due to office politics), turned out to be a word perfect proof reader for spelling and punctuation. He was bad at writing content but perfect at spelling, formatting etc a text. I had not occurred to me because he was so bad at the majority of tasks that i had routinely to interns. Proof reading was not something i would have assigned to an intern.
What i did was ask him which tasks of the various tasks involved in the projects i ran he would pick If he could pick himself. And after a trial/sample it was clear that he had indeed ecxellent skills in proof reading. Everything else, including making coffee, he was unable to do without major help.
We kept in touch after he left and he since felt comfortable enough to share about his neurodiversity, which is at the root of him not able to do the other tasks.
Now obviously this is only an example. But if you have to keep the intern and especially for any lenght of time, go through all tasks, let them identify their strong point and give them a trial opportunity.
posted by 15L06 at 4:43 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
1. Can you get your manager to take this intern off your projects?
Maybe this is not an option, but i would try. You have an example to use (intern interupting the meeting to get help with Word). If you can make it clear to your manager that the intern hinders you rather than helps you, this should convince them.
2. If your manager is unable to or unwilling to pull the intern off your projects, invest some time in analysing what type of work the intern is good at.
For example one super challenging intern i had (and had to keep due to office politics), turned out to be a word perfect proof reader for spelling and punctuation. He was bad at writing content but perfect at spelling, formatting etc a text. I had not occurred to me because he was so bad at the majority of tasks that i had routinely to interns. Proof reading was not something i would have assigned to an intern.
What i did was ask him which tasks of the various tasks involved in the projects i ran he would pick If he could pick himself. And after a trial/sample it was clear that he had indeed ecxellent skills in proof reading. Everything else, including making coffee, he was unable to do without major help.
We kept in touch after he left and he since felt comfortable enough to share about his neurodiversity, which is at the root of him not able to do the other tasks.
Now obviously this is only an example. But if you have to keep the intern and especially for any lenght of time, go through all tasks, let them identify their strong point and give them a trial opportunity.
posted by 15L06 at 4:43 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have a feeling that they are treating you as a colleague or a "fellow intern", so they are not taking you seriously.
You need to take this up with their LOCAL supervisor. You can't deal with someone located elsewhere. There's gotta be someone at where you are that manages them. If what I suspect is true, they are simply dis-ing you because they believe you have no authority over them.
posted by kschang at 4:52 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
You need to take this up with their LOCAL supervisor. You can't deal with someone located elsewhere. There's gotta be someone at where you are that manages them. If what I suspect is true, they are simply dis-ing you because they believe you have no authority over them.
posted by kschang at 4:52 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Regarding proper spelling and grammar, there are some folks who were never taught this. Perhaps (if not against company policy) using Grammarly may help? However, it does seem that there are some folks out there who lack "an attention to detail." In my experience, this isn't a coachable skill to someone who isn't open/responsive to feedback.
I think you need to have a conversation with your boss about the situation. Hopefully your boss has your back and agrees that the intern needs to stop "helping" you, and supports you letting intern's boss know that what you have been working on doesn't seem to be a good fit for the intern's skill set, and that you suggest that intern's boss find tasks that might be a better fit. However, if this intern is now your problem... read on.
The classic response in this situation is to give the intern "busywork" and "side projects." Maybe have him to take notes during meetings as a learning opportunity. Or find side projects for him to do that don't have dependencies on anyone's day to day work. This can be framed as giving the intern "ownership" over a task.
If you are super stuck, I would suggest reframing it as the intern *shadowing* you. You do all the things, the intern does what he can separately, and then you share the final result of what you did "as a learning opportunity."
You might want to tell the intern a white lie, that your workload has gotten busier, so it may take longer for you to respond to his questions.
posted by oceano at 4:53 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think you need to have a conversation with your boss about the situation. Hopefully your boss has your back and agrees that the intern needs to stop "helping" you, and supports you letting intern's boss know that what you have been working on doesn't seem to be a good fit for the intern's skill set, and that you suggest that intern's boss find tasks that might be a better fit. However, if this intern is now your problem... read on.
The classic response in this situation is to give the intern "busywork" and "side projects." Maybe have him to take notes during meetings as a learning opportunity. Or find side projects for him to do that don't have dependencies on anyone's day to day work. This can be framed as giving the intern "ownership" over a task.
If you are super stuck, I would suggest reframing it as the intern *shadowing* you. You do all the things, the intern does what he can separately, and then you share the final result of what you did "as a learning opportunity."
You might want to tell the intern a white lie, that your workload has gotten busier, so it may take longer for you to respond to his questions.
posted by oceano at 4:53 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
The intern didn't read the "Just FYI!" email because the intern doesn't understand the unspoken rules of offices. It doesn't matter if this person likes you, so don't worry about that. Stop being helpful and just focus on expectations.
Can you resend it?
No.
How do I format this Word table?
Google it.
Please acknowledge receipt.
Ask someone else.
Figure it out.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:15 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Can you resend it?
No.
How do I format this Word table?
Google it.
Please acknowledge receipt.
Ask someone else.
Figure it out.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:15 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Similar to "ask three then me" - I often ask my (technical) interns to try 3 things themselves then ask me. "I googled the error message, I tried to isolate the problem, I added these logs." Not sure if it directly translates but perhaps a similar idea?
+1 for cluing your manager in that you intend to take a less hands-on approach.
posted by february at 6:04 AM on October 21, 2021 [14 favorites]
+1 for cluing your manager in that you intend to take a less hands-on approach.
posted by february at 6:04 AM on October 21, 2021 [14 favorites]
They've "baby duck'ed" you because you provide help. In my experience with my younger brother and younger co-workers, the only way to break this cycle is to kick the baby bird out of the nest and make them fend for themselves.
If you have anything positive to say to / about the intern you might want to preface a conversation with "I see X Y and Z potential in your work. But as a co-worker I'm seeing some habits that won't serve you well in finding a full time job or growing into better roles."
"I have my own work to do and you come to me a lot for things that have been provided already or that you could figure out yourself. I know you're an intern, and I'm happy to help my co-workers when they actually need it but if you're going to be successful in the job here or elsewhere you need to take more care with your output and spend more time researching things before asking for help.
That doesn't mean don't ask for help, it means ask for help when you have exhausted other reasonable options. I'm not your manager but you come to me a lot for help. I'm going to direct you to your manager from now on for these things."
And then... direct them to their manager as appropriate. Doesn't matter where the manager is, it's Somebody Else's Problem. Don't make it yours. (What the intern is doing is making their problems yours, don't let them.)
posted by jzb at 6:16 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
If you have anything positive to say to / about the intern you might want to preface a conversation with "I see X Y and Z potential in your work. But as a co-worker I'm seeing some habits that won't serve you well in finding a full time job or growing into better roles."
"I have my own work to do and you come to me a lot for things that have been provided already or that you could figure out yourself. I know you're an intern, and I'm happy to help my co-workers when they actually need it but if you're going to be successful in the job here or elsewhere you need to take more care with your output and spend more time researching things before asking for help.
That doesn't mean don't ask for help, it means ask for help when you have exhausted other reasonable options. I'm not your manager but you come to me a lot for help. I'm going to direct you to your manager from now on for these things."
And then... direct them to their manager as appropriate. Doesn't matter where the manager is, it's Somebody Else's Problem. Don't make it yours. (What the intern is doing is making their problems yours, don't let them.)
posted by jzb at 6:16 AM on October 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
Jzb got there before me. They need a gentle shove but first, a phone call and some advice along the lines of "this is me telling you what you need to do to succeed and that I'm not going to look up or resend information you already have. I have a lot of my own work to do and having to hold your hand is slowing me down."
And then do that.
The other/ harder part is that they may not improve and you are going to have to let them fail and flail. Refer them to their actual boss.
If you get blowback, have your repeated early efforts to help, and conversations, documented.
Also going forward, I would ask to be part of the interview process for any new interns who are going to be working with you. Use this experience to help you figure out what questions to ask.
posted by emjaybee at 6:41 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
And then do that.
The other/ harder part is that they may not improve and you are going to have to let them fail and flail. Refer them to their actual boss.
If you get blowback, have your repeated early efforts to help, and conversations, documented.
Also going forward, I would ask to be part of the interview process for any new interns who are going to be working with you. Use this experience to help you figure out what questions to ask.
posted by emjaybee at 6:41 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
That you are asking if you are being "mean" shows where the problem is. It is not "mean" to tell the intern, as others have suggested, figure it out on your own.
Every time you resend a doc, restate the question, or help solve it, you have reinforced their helplessness. Stop responding this way , and let the chips fall where they may.
good luck
posted by rhonzo at 7:34 AM on October 21, 2021
Every time you resend a doc, restate the question, or help solve it, you have reinforced their helplessness. Stop responding this way , and let the chips fall where they may.
good luck
posted by rhonzo at 7:34 AM on October 21, 2021
There's a fine line between internships and temporary un-/under-paid menial office jobs, and it sounds like your company has a policy of crossing it. The flimsy excuse for why our economy forces college and high school graduates to work for free or very little is that in exchange they get an opportunity to learn the basic skills needed to eventually get a real job.
So the fact that you are giving no negative feedback is... problematic, and the fact that his actual manager doesn't even engage him is worse. It sounds like your company has a shitty internship program. Your intern is not there to do the least challenging work for your company, he's there to LEARN how to do that sort of work, and traverse office culture and expectations. He's not supposed to know how to do this.
So in exchange for his incredibly underpaid, temporary workplace experience, you teach him these things by sometimes handholding him through it with excruciating detail, and you explain why it should be that way, and when he IMs back "okay" you say "hey at this office, this is not appropriate. You need to respond fully to my IMs" and whatever else to help him succeed.
And you should really talk to your HR about the fact that they are laundering underpaid, temporary workers through a so-called internship program.
posted by RajahKing at 9:13 AM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
So the fact that you are giving no negative feedback is... problematic, and the fact that his actual manager doesn't even engage him is worse. It sounds like your company has a shitty internship program. Your intern is not there to do the least challenging work for your company, he's there to LEARN how to do that sort of work, and traverse office culture and expectations. He's not supposed to know how to do this.
So in exchange for his incredibly underpaid, temporary workplace experience, you teach him these things by sometimes handholding him through it with excruciating detail, and you explain why it should be that way, and when he IMs back "okay" you say "hey at this office, this is not appropriate. You need to respond fully to my IMs" and whatever else to help him succeed.
And you should really talk to your HR about the fact that they are laundering underpaid, temporary workers through a so-called internship program.
posted by RajahKing at 9:13 AM on October 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
They absolutely sound infuriating and that they need to shape up a lot if they want to keep working.
Everyone else has the same kinds of suggestions that I have, in addition I think looping in your manager is pretty important. I don't think you're supposed to be wasting your time doing the intern's work as well as your own and it might help you feel more free to push back.
posted by plonkee at 11:36 AM on October 21, 2021
Everyone else has the same kinds of suggestions that I have, in addition I think looping in your manager is pretty important. I don't think you're supposed to be wasting your time doing the intern's work as well as your own and it might help you feel more free to push back.
posted by plonkee at 11:36 AM on October 21, 2021
A sincere, caring, unintrusive "Are you getting enough sleep? Or are you dealing with something in your life that's affecting your ability to notice and remember things?"
this is not bad advice for the purpose but it is murder-level brutality, so much so that the boundary annihilating part of it hardly registers in the midst of the overall effect. there is no unintrusive way to ask something so intrusive.
"sincere, caring" is for plausible deniability and it's not even plausible plausible deniability, at that. but hell. it's very good, for what it is. as long as that's what you're sure you're after.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:08 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
this is not bad advice for the purpose but it is murder-level brutality, so much so that the boundary annihilating part of it hardly registers in the midst of the overall effect. there is no unintrusive way to ask something so intrusive.
"sincere, caring" is for plausible deniability and it's not even plausible plausible deniability, at that. but hell. it's very good, for what it is. as long as that's what you're sure you're after.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:08 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah, you're right, queenof. It's kind of harsh. I couldn't think of another way to phrase it/broach the subject/encapsulate the approach in a comment.
posted by amtho at 3:11 PM on October 21, 2021
posted by amtho at 3:11 PM on October 21, 2021
One year I had two really great interns. We began the summer with many difficult conversations about office norms, culture, and perceptions. These conversations arose because of missteps. We spent a lot of time on that stuff together. I hope I prepared them to start their careers off on the right foot. They had to be taught some really basic stuff, stuff I hadn’t thought about in years. They also told me that the work day was extremely tiring for them; they were not accustom to knowledge work in 8-10 hour stretches of time. I had forgotten that.
All of this is to say: I agree with the posters who are saying that interns are there to learn HOW to work.
posted by CMcG at 6:26 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
All of this is to say: I agree with the posters who are saying that interns are there to learn HOW to work.
posted by CMcG at 6:26 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oof. This sounds very unpleasant.
If I were you, I would have a sit-down with the intern where you explicitly detail the steps they should take before asking a question (ask other people, consult A and B docs, etc.)
Then when they come to you, ask them what steps they have taken on their own to resolve their issue. Don't help unless they've clearly tried before coming to you.
You could also institute "office hours" so they save up their questions for, say, 2-4 PM every other day.
You could also set them up with visual reminders in their workspace if they don't already have them, say a desk calendar and a whiteboard. You can write the things you want them to do on the board so they are less likely to forget them.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 8:51 PM on October 21, 2021
If I were you, I would have a sit-down with the intern where you explicitly detail the steps they should take before asking a question (ask other people, consult A and B docs, etc.)
Then when they come to you, ask them what steps they have taken on their own to resolve their issue. Don't help unless they've clearly tried before coming to you.
You could also institute "office hours" so they save up their questions for, say, 2-4 PM every other day.
You could also set them up with visual reminders in their workspace if they don't already have them, say a desk calendar and a whiteboard. You can write the things you want them to do on the board so they are less likely to forget them.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 8:51 PM on October 21, 2021
You don't know this intern's background. They may never have had exposure to the formal norms of a professional workplace, even indirectly through their families. They may have had the kind of spoon-feeding education that doesn't even envisage intellectual self-reliance as a goal. Whatever the reason, part of the goal of an internship is learning some of these norms through experience. You're going to have to be explicit. Kind, but explicit:
* When you are provided with information necessary to do your job, you are expected to retain it rather than expect others to maintain it for you.
* When you make statements of fact, they should be accurate to the best of your ability to ensure that. That may mean reviewing old emails or documents to confirm details.
* When you encounter an obstacle in getting your job done, you should first attempt to solve it yourself before asking someone else to do it for you.
* When you do need help from someone, say please and thank you.
* Don't interrupt others at work unless it's an emergency.
I mean you need to actually say these things out loud. They may seem obvious, but in the end all of our conventions are mostly artificial and arbitrary, and some people are not adept at picking them up. It might be embarrassing in the moment, but it will save the intern much worse later on.
posted by praemunire at 9:27 PM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
* When you are provided with information necessary to do your job, you are expected to retain it rather than expect others to maintain it for you.
* When you make statements of fact, they should be accurate to the best of your ability to ensure that. That may mean reviewing old emails or documents to confirm details.
* When you encounter an obstacle in getting your job done, you should first attempt to solve it yourself before asking someone else to do it for you.
* When you do need help from someone, say please and thank you.
* Don't interrupt others at work unless it's an emergency.
I mean you need to actually say these things out loud. They may seem obvious, but in the end all of our conventions are mostly artificial and arbitrary, and some people are not adept at picking them up. It might be embarrassing in the moment, but it will save the intern much worse later on.
posted by praemunire at 9:27 PM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cakelite at 8:11 PM on October 20, 2021 [12 favorites]