How Do You/Can You Stay Friends With A Pathological Liar?
April 19, 2021 6:20 PM Subscribe
My friend lies about literally everything. How do I, or should I even, deal?
I've been friends with A for about 4 years. He's always lied, in a flaky way. Like, never "I overbooked/I'm just not up to it," always "the dog got out/my demented grandmother escaped/the car died." I knew he was lying, and just eventually never made plans with him that didn't have a contingency plan or that I didn't care about in the first place.
It's gotten much worse.
He has a health condition which (he says) is Parkinson's, but who knows? He drinks A LOT. And I'm not judging that, you take friends as they are. But the last year or two, he lies (and takes a lot of my time listening to the lies) about EVERYTHING. The number of puppies his dog had. The weekends in Aspen when he forgets he's allegedly there and accidentally posts (and then deletes) on Facebook about actually being in his apartment. This past weekend, we had brunch plans which he went on (AND ON) about looking forward to, only to say that he was "really sick" the night before. I texted back that I'd go with another friend and drop him off his favorite. Guess who never made a reservation to begin with? Yep, A. I texted "you could have just said you'd forgotten to make a reservation. I wouldn't have been mad." As usual, he doubled down and said he'd canceled with OpenTable so as not to lose his points, and "forgotten" to tell me.
The fact is, I love my friend. (Platonically, we're both attracted to men.) I realize that this need for fabulism and to cover his ass is rooted in something ... but we can't actually be friends if he lies about what time it is for no reason. He also takes up an inordinate amount of my time listening to stories that aren't based in reality. Also, I AM NOT STUPID, and his lies imply that he thinks I am.
I care for him, and in many ways he's a supportive friend. Have you ever dealt with this? I'm ready to fade, because an intervention will probably make him double down on his lies. (As it has before.) I just feel badly for him, and I feel like maybe this is a cry for help. My dad was a compulsive liar (check your watch if you ask Dad what time it is) and I've seen firsthand how this isolates people.
Suggestions, please. Thanks!
I've been friends with A for about 4 years. He's always lied, in a flaky way. Like, never "I overbooked/I'm just not up to it," always "the dog got out/my demented grandmother escaped/the car died." I knew he was lying, and just eventually never made plans with him that didn't have a contingency plan or that I didn't care about in the first place.
It's gotten much worse.
He has a health condition which (he says) is Parkinson's, but who knows? He drinks A LOT. And I'm not judging that, you take friends as they are. But the last year or two, he lies (and takes a lot of my time listening to the lies) about EVERYTHING. The number of puppies his dog had. The weekends in Aspen when he forgets he's allegedly there and accidentally posts (and then deletes) on Facebook about actually being in his apartment. This past weekend, we had brunch plans which he went on (AND ON) about looking forward to, only to say that he was "really sick" the night before. I texted back that I'd go with another friend and drop him off his favorite. Guess who never made a reservation to begin with? Yep, A. I texted "you could have just said you'd forgotten to make a reservation. I wouldn't have been mad." As usual, he doubled down and said he'd canceled with OpenTable so as not to lose his points, and "forgotten" to tell me.
The fact is, I love my friend. (Platonically, we're both attracted to men.) I realize that this need for fabulism and to cover his ass is rooted in something ... but we can't actually be friends if he lies about what time it is for no reason. He also takes up an inordinate amount of my time listening to stories that aren't based in reality. Also, I AM NOT STUPID, and his lies imply that he thinks I am.
I care for him, and in many ways he's a supportive friend. Have you ever dealt with this? I'm ready to fade, because an intervention will probably make him double down on his lies. (As it has before.) I just feel badly for him, and I feel like maybe this is a cry for help. My dad was a compulsive liar (check your watch if you ask Dad what time it is) and I've seen firsthand how this isolates people.
Suggestions, please. Thanks!
a lot of people who do this come from childhoods where there was severe punishment for being caught doing something wrong, so a lot of kids learnt to lie or embellish as a protective mechanism to save themselves
at least one. hi.
it's a long process, even with therapy. I'm still tempted to make up "a believable story" when I'm late. but, better and better my whole adult life.
no advice for you. this will be an energy suck forever. it's your decision if you can afford it. if you quit this relationship, be sure to tell him "you lie all the time about everything. i can no longer afford the energy." then, at least there's some chance he'll associate the loss with his issues.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:54 PM on April 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
at least one. hi.
it's a long process, even with therapy. I'm still tempted to make up "a believable story" when I'm late. but, better and better my whole adult life.
no advice for you. this will be an energy suck forever. it's your decision if you can afford it. if you quit this relationship, be sure to tell him "you lie all the time about everything. i can no longer afford the energy." then, at least there's some chance he'll associate the loss with his issues.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:54 PM on April 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
Response by poster: I'll try to make this my only response but: I get the automatic protective instinct to lie when one is late/flakes. I had the literal physical and emotional shit pounded out of me by abusive parents. But I also don't "entertain" my friends with fabulist stories about (let's say) tea with the Queen/George Clooney because I'm no longer twelve, and that shit is checkable.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 7:01 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 7:01 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
This kind of friend doesn't change, so you have to decide whether it's worth the cost of admission or not. It sounds like it may once have been, but no longer feels like it to you, and, like the man said, "it's one of those things you've got to feel to be true."
I had a relative who was like this--I wouldn't have believed him if he said the sun was coming up in the east tomorrow. It's okay to fade.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 PM on April 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
I had a relative who was like this--I wouldn't have believed him if he said the sun was coming up in the east tomorrow. It's okay to fade.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 PM on April 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
Does he drink so much that he doesn't remember some of your conversations? Are some of his bullshit stories possibly attempts to cover up the fact that he simply does not remember? What ended it for me, with one friend, was realizing something similar and that I was putting in a lot of time and effort that was completely one-sided. If it's something like that, I'm sorry, and it's painful. And he may actually care for you very deeply, but the person you're dealing with is not actually him a good part of the time.
It definitely sounds like he has some other issues, but if his alcohol use has escalated recently, that can really multiply those issues.
posted by BibiRose at 7:05 PM on April 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
It definitely sounds like he has some other issues, but if his alcohol use has escalated recently, that can really multiply those issues.
posted by BibiRose at 7:05 PM on April 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don’t know how you can. I have had a lot of liars in my life (some good at it, some so bad at it that clearly it is a compulsion) and I cannot cope with it anymore. You have to decide how much trust is important to you.
posted by 41swans at 7:15 PM on April 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by 41swans at 7:15 PM on April 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
My sibling was like this (we have been estranged now for probably a decade). It's not just the lies, the lies are just shit candles on a shit cake, but I could not deal with it anymore -- in part because someone who lies and lies and lies and lies is not reliable and I never felt like I could truly count on him when I needed it; in part because it was super insulting to my intelligence to be lied to so blatantly so often; and in part because many people in our family excused his behavior as though his lies had no negative impact to anyone except himself and/or they felt sorry for him (being in shitty situations he put himself in by LYING [and also stealing]). It was draining and there was never any real upside. The stories were so outlandish that they weren't even entertaining, it was just... often pathetic. Sometimes literally offensive. Always just a huge emotional drain.
I am glad to be free of it.
posted by sm1tten at 7:28 PM on April 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
I am glad to be free of it.
posted by sm1tten at 7:28 PM on April 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
So: I am an objectively terrible person, which is important in the following...
...decide what you want out of this relationship.
Maybe it's just amusement, in which case feel free to continue. I quite enjoy toying with the liars in my life. I'll spare you the details, but suffice to say I derive a surprising level of enjoyment from conversational torture inflicted on obvious liars. It's probably not healthy, but I'm pretty good at calibrating my level of insult and since I'm a willing "opponent" they just keep coming back for more.
It's ... sort of like a chess puzzle, and every new conversation is a new puzzle. I enjoy it enormously, and occasionally seek out new opponents when old ones fuck up their life too badly to continue. I've done this since university. Junkies are an especially ripe source.
So: if the above describes the sort of person you might be, then by all means continue the friendship! It's fun! You can really bend them into knots with a few careful remarks and strategically-raised eyebrow. Like fencing, but with lies.
If the above does not describe you, then I would generally recommend ceasing the "friendship".
When your interaction with them ends, are you energized or drained? If energized, continue. If drained, find new friends.
posted by aramaic at 7:46 PM on April 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
...decide what you want out of this relationship.
Maybe it's just amusement, in which case feel free to continue. I quite enjoy toying with the liars in my life. I'll spare you the details, but suffice to say I derive a surprising level of enjoyment from conversational torture inflicted on obvious liars. It's probably not healthy, but I'm pretty good at calibrating my level of insult and since I'm a willing "opponent" they just keep coming back for more.
It's ... sort of like a chess puzzle, and every new conversation is a new puzzle. I enjoy it enormously, and occasionally seek out new opponents when old ones fuck up their life too badly to continue. I've done this since university. Junkies are an especially ripe source.
So: if the above describes the sort of person you might be, then by all means continue the friendship! It's fun! You can really bend them into knots with a few careful remarks and strategically-raised eyebrow. Like fencing, but with lies.
If the above does not describe you, then I would generally recommend ceasing the "friendship".
When your interaction with them ends, are you energized or drained? If energized, continue. If drained, find new friends.
posted by aramaic at 7:46 PM on April 19, 2021 [20 favorites]
I briefly dated a guy who I later realized lied a lot. He was also, I realized, an alcoholic and seemed to have an unhealthy relationship with some other substances too (this is why I broke things off relatively quickly). I think the lying maybe had become automatic, to cover up the drinking. Some things were just confusing and didn't make sense. It may have been he didn't remember or that he was so habituated to lying, he did it unconsciously. I don't have any deep insight to share except that these things could be related, per my therapist.
He also had shaking hands. I especially noticed it one day, late morning on a Sunday. We went to brunch and he ordered a brunch cocktail. I can't say for certain with him, but tremors or shakes can be a sign of alcohol withdrawal. Parkinson's sometimes involves tremors. So perhaps your friend is saying he has Parkinson's to cover up for his withdrawal tremors.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:07 PM on April 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
He also had shaking hands. I especially noticed it one day, late morning on a Sunday. We went to brunch and he ordered a brunch cocktail. I can't say for certain with him, but tremors or shakes can be a sign of alcohol withdrawal. Parkinson's sometimes involves tremors. So perhaps your friend is saying he has Parkinson's to cover up for his withdrawal tremors.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:07 PM on April 19, 2021 [10 favorites]
I have a friend I love a lot who is like this. Oh, the stories I've heard. One time I googled some of the elements she'd described and it was clearly an episode of Dr Phil which she'd adopted as her own story. One time she was leaving a happy hour early and I was like "oh, can't you stay for one more round?" and she was like "no, my friend just crashed his motorcycle and died." Heh.
I don't see her often, I don't confide anything serious to her now (because she spins stories about people she knows, too) and I don't believe anything she says. But she's been a sympathetic friend, and she's a lot less boring than most people, so I enjoy the rare occasions we do get together.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:15 PM on April 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't see her often, I don't confide anything serious to her now (because she spins stories about people she knows, too) and I don't believe anything she says. But she's been a sympathetic friend, and she's a lot less boring than most people, so I enjoy the rare occasions we do get together.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:15 PM on April 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
When your interaction with them ends, are you energized or drained? If energized, continue. If drained, find new friends.
This is GREAT advice for so many situations!
posted by mccxxiii at 8:46 PM on April 19, 2021 [29 favorites]
This is GREAT advice for so many situations!
posted by mccxxiii at 8:46 PM on April 19, 2021 [29 favorites]
Seriously, the drama isn't worth it. As others said, are you willing to pay the price of admission to deal with this shit?
I used to hang around with a compulsive liar--a friend's SO. Eventually he started making up shit about my boyfriend and I, and she dropped me as a friend. What do you do when he makes up lies about you?
"but we can't actually be friends if he lies about what time it is for no reason."
Compulsive liar.
. Also, I AM NOT STUPID, and his lies imply that he thinks I am.
I care for him, and in many ways he's a supportive friend. Have you ever dealt with this? I'm ready to fade, because an intervention will probably make him double down on his lies. "
How is a compulsive liar a good friend? You can't trust him. And you think he thinks you're stupid enough to believe his bullshit.
Someday this guy will bite you in the ass, too. Kick him to the curb. Like, just stop talking to him level of "this isn't worth it."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on April 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
I used to hang around with a compulsive liar--a friend's SO. Eventually he started making up shit about my boyfriend and I, and she dropped me as a friend. What do you do when he makes up lies about you?
"but we can't actually be friends if he lies about what time it is for no reason."
Compulsive liar.
. Also, I AM NOT STUPID, and his lies imply that he thinks I am.
I care for him, and in many ways he's a supportive friend. Have you ever dealt with this? I'm ready to fade, because an intervention will probably make him double down on his lies. "
How is a compulsive liar a good friend? You can't trust him. And you think he thinks you're stupid enough to believe his bullshit.
Someday this guy will bite you in the ass, too. Kick him to the curb. Like, just stop talking to him level of "this isn't worth it."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on April 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’ve known a couple of compulsive liars, and I couldn’t stand it. What made it unbearable for me was being an unwilling participant in their fabrications- I’d have to nod along and gasp in the right places to their ludicrous stories, and I just wasn’t willing to engage in these amateur dramatics. They know they’re lying, I know they’re lying, why are we putting on this weird play when I’m just trying to have lunch?
I found it quite fascinating and I looked into it a few years ago when I was working with someone like this, and saw that excessive lying can be linked to a lack of empathy (eg narcissism/psychopathy), which I found interesting- apparently the reason most people don’t lie most of the time is because they know they wouldn’t like to be lied to themselves. As mentioned above it can also be a response to harsh discipline and shaming during childhood, and I certainly don’t want to shame people like this further by suggesting they all have personality disorders, I just raise it as a possibility/point of interest.
I don’t think the liars in my life have been so malignant, but one of my husband’s best friends is a compulsive liar, and seems to have had both a very harsh childhood as well as some narcissistic traits. His entire identity seems to be a fabrication, and he was publicly disgraced and lost his fiancé when his lies came to light a few years ago, but he still maintains all sorts of grandiose lies about his background. I’ve asked my husband why he doesn’t get bothered by the lies, and it seems to be three things- 1) he really likes this guy otherwise- he’s funny, kind and intelligent and the pros outweigh the cons. 2) he sees the lies as quite insignificant. They don’t hurt anyone, so what harm does it do? 3) He finds the whole thing hilarious. The lies this person tells are usually around having a very distinguished background, and they are quite creative and ludicrous.
However, there have been a couple of times this guy’s lies have involved my husband (elevating his status, or connecting him to high profile people), or he has been deceptive about things my husband thinks are more serious and immoral, and he’s been very upset by these. I feel like fish gonna swim, liars gonna lie, but for the most part, this seems to be a friendship he enjoys. I think the key might be his finding it funny rather than hurtful or insulting. It wouldn’t work for me though.
posted by Dwardles at 1:30 AM on April 20, 2021 [5 favorites]
I found it quite fascinating and I looked into it a few years ago when I was working with someone like this, and saw that excessive lying can be linked to a lack of empathy (eg narcissism/psychopathy), which I found interesting- apparently the reason most people don’t lie most of the time is because they know they wouldn’t like to be lied to themselves. As mentioned above it can also be a response to harsh discipline and shaming during childhood, and I certainly don’t want to shame people like this further by suggesting they all have personality disorders, I just raise it as a possibility/point of interest.
I don’t think the liars in my life have been so malignant, but one of my husband’s best friends is a compulsive liar, and seems to have had both a very harsh childhood as well as some narcissistic traits. His entire identity seems to be a fabrication, and he was publicly disgraced and lost his fiancé when his lies came to light a few years ago, but he still maintains all sorts of grandiose lies about his background. I’ve asked my husband why he doesn’t get bothered by the lies, and it seems to be three things- 1) he really likes this guy otherwise- he’s funny, kind and intelligent and the pros outweigh the cons. 2) he sees the lies as quite insignificant. They don’t hurt anyone, so what harm does it do? 3) He finds the whole thing hilarious. The lies this person tells are usually around having a very distinguished background, and they are quite creative and ludicrous.
However, there have been a couple of times this guy’s lies have involved my husband (elevating his status, or connecting him to high profile people), or he has been deceptive about things my husband thinks are more serious and immoral, and he’s been very upset by these. I feel like fish gonna swim, liars gonna lie, but for the most part, this seems to be a friendship he enjoys. I think the key might be his finding it funny rather than hurtful or insulting. It wouldn’t work for me though.
posted by Dwardles at 1:30 AM on April 20, 2021 [5 favorites]
I had a compulsive liar friend in high school. I wasn’t close friends with her though she was always on the periphery of our friend group. I just felt like I didn’t know her at all.. ya know? She lied about so much that it was impossible to see who she really was beneath all the lies. Same as your friend, she always doubled down when we tried to question her outlandish stories. I also felt many a time that she must think other people are pretty dumb if she expected any of us to believe her.
I thought a big part of her pattern of behavior was maybe due to poor self esteem and feeling like she wasn’t good enough. Perhaps she felt she needed to embellish in order to be more impressive and interesting in our eyes. And I think she was in a bad enough mental state that she really came to believe a lot of the lies. Then she started stealing things from us and lying about where she got them, so that was the last straw for me. Her lying had crossed the line from harmless to something more sinister.
Do you feel like you really know your friend as a person, beneath all the lies? Do you trust that their lies will remain harmless, instead of escalating to other forms of deception that would cause real harm? If the answers are no, and it sounds like you’ve gotten fed up with the demands that your friend’s lying places on your time and emotional energy, I think it’s fine to fade, or to tell them exactly why you’re done and let that be a wake up call to get help. It also doesn’t sound like your friend would accept your assistance to find help for him, given that in his made up narrative, he has done nothing wrong. You’re not responsible for that and like any other addiction or mental illness, you can’t force your friend to do anything he hasn’t accepted and developed his own desire to improve on, short of becoming a danger to himself or others.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:43 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
I thought a big part of her pattern of behavior was maybe due to poor self esteem and feeling like she wasn’t good enough. Perhaps she felt she needed to embellish in order to be more impressive and interesting in our eyes. And I think she was in a bad enough mental state that she really came to believe a lot of the lies. Then she started stealing things from us and lying about where she got them, so that was the last straw for me. Her lying had crossed the line from harmless to something more sinister.
Do you feel like you really know your friend as a person, beneath all the lies? Do you trust that their lies will remain harmless, instead of escalating to other forms of deception that would cause real harm? If the answers are no, and it sounds like you’ve gotten fed up with the demands that your friend’s lying places on your time and emotional energy, I think it’s fine to fade, or to tell them exactly why you’re done and let that be a wake up call to get help. It also doesn’t sound like your friend would accept your assistance to find help for him, given that in his made up narrative, he has done nothing wrong. You’re not responsible for that and like any other addiction or mental illness, you can’t force your friend to do anything he hasn’t accepted and developed his own desire to improve on, short of becoming a danger to himself or others.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:43 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
If it's kinda your thing anyway and you're leaning toward exiting the friendship, you might consider watching The Assassination of Gianni Versace on Netflix. If I were in your situation, that series would edge me right out the door. (The main character has the same issue.)
posted by nosila at 6:25 AM on April 20, 2021
posted by nosila at 6:25 AM on April 20, 2021
I also had a friend like this in high school. He lied about everything, often to try to make himself seem cooler (eg. we lived on the Canada/U.S. border, so he claimed he had an American girlfriend). One of the last things I remember about him was being in a group where he claimed that he had driven from our hometown to Toronto and back in three hours (this is a 600 km/375 mile drive, so he would have had to *average* 200 km/125 miles per hour for the entire trip). When the group called him out on this obvious bullshit he doubled down and people started laughing. But he would even lie about things to no obvious personal gain, intangible or otherwise, to himself, and it got so exhausting that I was happy to just let him drift out of my life as high school came to an end and we went our separate ways.
Ultimately, all relationships should be based on a level of trust, and personally I wouldn't be able to maintain a friendship with someone whose word I could never trust in matters great or trivial. He may have mental health issues, but those are not your responsibility to manage or treat if he is not making a good faith effort to address them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:42 AM on April 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ultimately, all relationships should be based on a level of trust, and personally I wouldn't be able to maintain a friendship with someone whose word I could never trust in matters great or trivial. He may have mental health issues, but those are not your responsibility to manage or treat if he is not making a good faith effort to address them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:42 AM on April 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've had a couple of friends like this, both actually when I was much younger, high school and college age. In both cases I let the friendship go. However, in my case it was easier because of the post-education diaspora. In one case, the person tried to contact me via facebook several times and I ended up blocking them.
Honestly, for me a lot of the issue was how exhausting it was. I can't have a relationship with someone when I have to constantly assess whether to believe them or not. It's not 'fabulous entertaining tall tales,' it's a constant stream of untruths that prevent me from actually having a relationship or friendship because I end up not knowing the person at all. Like, if you've lied to me about stupid stuff the whole time - who are you??
That's mostly referring to one of those former friends. The second one was compounded by that person basically being a friendly bully; our relationship was based in large part of me being tolerant of getting made fun of, and I stopped feeling tolerant when I examined our friendship as a whole.
posted by Occula at 7:51 AM on April 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Honestly, for me a lot of the issue was how exhausting it was. I can't have a relationship with someone when I have to constantly assess whether to believe them or not. It's not 'fabulous entertaining tall tales,' it's a constant stream of untruths that prevent me from actually having a relationship or friendship because I end up not knowing the person at all. Like, if you've lied to me about stupid stuff the whole time - who are you??
That's mostly referring to one of those former friends. The second one was compounded by that person basically being a friendly bully; our relationship was based in large part of me being tolerant of getting made fun of, and I stopped feeling tolerant when I examined our friendship as a whole.
posted by Occula at 7:51 AM on April 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
and don’t harm or inconvenience anyone
This is the key to me. I have a buddy who's a compulsive liar about stupid stuff that doesn't actually matter. He's a good guy in other ways so we just kind of put up with it. But I don't really talk about anything that's important to me with him, because any advice that he might give is likely to be full of shit. I've known him since we were both tweens and it goes back to a desperate desire to be liked and accepted so he learned to tell stories that seem interesting and impressive if you're just meeting him but after you know him and what his patterns are are clearly false.
Whereas I had a now former coworker who lied about things both trivial and non-trivial that I got fired, because the stuff that was important that he lied about created genuine risk for the company. No one has time for that.
posted by Candleman at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is the key to me. I have a buddy who's a compulsive liar about stupid stuff that doesn't actually matter. He's a good guy in other ways so we just kind of put up with it. But I don't really talk about anything that's important to me with him, because any advice that he might give is likely to be full of shit. I've known him since we were both tweens and it goes back to a desperate desire to be liked and accepted so he learned to tell stories that seem interesting and impressive if you're just meeting him but after you know him and what his patterns are are clearly false.
Whereas I had a now former coworker who lied about things both trivial and non-trivial that I got fired, because the stuff that was important that he lied about created genuine risk for the company. No one has time for that.
posted by Candleman at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
It sounds like Wernicke-Korsakoff Psychosis. Look up about confabulation. Basically the alcoholism is causing so many holes in the memory that he is filling in the gaps with what to him is plausible reality. See the ask me above about Crepuscular Hallucinations. It's a similar mechanism where the brain is trying to fill in for the missing data.
If I am correct, your friend is in deep trouble.
As to how to be friends with him, since it isn't reversible, you can figure he will get more and more confused as he goes on, and probably end up with significant problems with peripheral neuropathy if he hasn't already.
Do not argue with him, as his reality is often as strong to him as yours is to you and it will just create conflict. Do not rely on anything he says he will do or has done to have any guarantee of truth.
In my mother's case she also ended up with significant hostility that bled over into becoming violent, so make conditions for yourself as to what you will put up with and what will cause you to leave immediately. Boundaries are critical. You may want to make sure that there is someone you can delegate to, and have a number for a mental health crisis nurse to call if you need to leave him in a precarious position for your own safety. I mean situations like where he needs care taking in his own home but it is not safe for you to do so.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
If I am correct, your friend is in deep trouble.
As to how to be friends with him, since it isn't reversible, you can figure he will get more and more confused as he goes on, and probably end up with significant problems with peripheral neuropathy if he hasn't already.
Do not argue with him, as his reality is often as strong to him as yours is to you and it will just create conflict. Do not rely on anything he says he will do or has done to have any guarantee of truth.
In my mother's case she also ended up with significant hostility that bled over into becoming violent, so make conditions for yourself as to what you will put up with and what will cause you to leave immediately. Boundaries are critical. You may want to make sure that there is someone you can delegate to, and have a number for a mental health crisis nurse to call if you need to leave him in a precarious position for your own safety. I mean situations like where he needs care taking in his own home but it is not safe for you to do so.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2021 [4 favorites]
I came in here to suggest these could be symptoms of Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome as well. IANAD but if this is what's happening, the lies are actually beyond his control; his brain is filling in the blanks and he may not even be aware that he's lying. He wouldn't be trying to get one over on you or trying to treat you like you're stupid. Sometimes it's called amnestic-confabulatory syndrome or amnestic confabulation. Most colloquially you might have heard the term "wet brain." Also if he does indeed have Parkinson's disease, there are types of dementia associated with that as well.
If this is the case, Jane the Brown's advice above is good; confronting him about the lies will be useless at best and upsetting to him at worst. In any case, I think any "intervention" should be in the realm of getting him to a doctor if you have the influence to do so; changes or escalation in behavior in someone who is using a lot of alcohol could mean a lot of different things.
posted by assenav at 11:02 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
If this is the case, Jane the Brown's advice above is good; confronting him about the lies will be useless at best and upsetting to him at worst. In any case, I think any "intervention" should be in the realm of getting him to a doctor if you have the influence to do so; changes or escalation in behavior in someone who is using a lot of alcohol could mean a lot of different things.
posted by assenav at 11:02 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
he's not going to stop and you're probably going to have to walk away even if you manage to hold on for a little longer. but I would just say, I don't think it has anything to do with thinking you're stupid or thinking he can get away with anything or thinking his lies can't be checked. I don't think this kind of liar thinks in that kind of devious well-planned logical way at all, and when they lie in the moment they definitely aren't gaming out your probable reaction and calculating what you're likely to believe. it's much more compulsive than that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:32 PM on April 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:32 PM on April 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
I’ve known a couple of compulsive liars, and I couldn’t stand it. What made it unbearable for me was being an unwilling participant in their fabrications- I’d have to nod along and gasp in the right places to their ludicrous stories, and I just wasn’t willing to engage in these amateur dramatics. They know they’re lying, I know they’re lying, why are we putting on this weird play when I’m just trying to have lunch?
Oh god I feel this so much. Like, this is where the energy gets spent: trying to hide my incredulity, going along with things, feigning sympathy. It's so gross.
The Compulsive liar in my life has a substance addiction and mental health issues that make it hard for them to feel "real" and I believe that the lies somehow are worn like a cloak over a very sad and lonely person. I can't slow fade, so I have to really be mindful and try to be kind about it.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 2:59 AM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh god I feel this so much. Like, this is where the energy gets spent: trying to hide my incredulity, going along with things, feigning sympathy. It's so gross.
The Compulsive liar in my life has a substance addiction and mental health issues that make it hard for them to feel "real" and I believe that the lies somehow are worn like a cloak over a very sad and lonely person. I can't slow fade, so I have to really be mindful and try to be kind about it.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 2:59 AM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've known a few people I felt were aggressive liars. Like, dominance display liars. They know they're lying, and they know you know they're lying. They're daring you to call them a liar, and counting it as a win if you don't dare to.
Also people who seem to say the dumbest, most obvious lies, to get themselves into trouble because they enjoy the thrill of using their spectacular seat-of-the-pants quick thinking and wit (in their mind) to get themselves out of it. Like driving dangerously too fast.
Of all the options so far, thinks you're stupid liar, compulsive liar, aggressive liar, and thrill-seeking liar, I can't put up with any of them. It's not even worth it to tell them. Just fade.
posted by ctmf at 8:19 PM on April 21, 2021
Also people who seem to say the dumbest, most obvious lies, to get themselves into trouble because they enjoy the thrill of using their spectacular seat-of-the-pants quick thinking and wit (in their mind) to get themselves out of it. Like driving dangerously too fast.
Of all the options so far, thinks you're stupid liar, compulsive liar, aggressive liar, and thrill-seeking liar, I can't put up with any of them. It's not even worth it to tell them. Just fade.
posted by ctmf at 8:19 PM on April 21, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think a lot of people who do this come from childhoods where there was severe punishment for being caught doing something wrong, so a lot of kids learnt to lie or embellish as a protective mechanism to save themselves and just never stopped. Obviously I don’t know your friends situation but this might make you a bit more sympathetic.
I get that they lie and it’s frustrating but try to love them anyway. I’m sure they’re aware that they do it and probably have shame because of
It. We all have our faults.
posted by Jubey at 6:38 PM on April 19, 2021 [16 favorites]