Love vs geography
April 19, 2021 3:31 PM Subscribe
A little while ago I moved to the US, as an unattached young adult, for work and a bit of adventure, fully expecting to move back home in a few years' time. I very unexpectedly met someone I now call my sweetheart, who I am starting to think I would like to be with for a long long time. This is bringing up lots of anxiety and uncertainty around the idea of settling down here for good. Folks who've emigrated to another country (or made a similarly big life decision) for their SO, how did you decide to do it, how did you talk about it with your partner, and how do you feel about it now?
I was you 20 years ago. Note that I am a white guy from a first world nation who does highly skilled technical work, I'm basically the most privileged person possible from an emigrating-into-the-USA standpoint, I think the only easier situation would be if I bought one of those investor visas that rich jerks can get.
I was in the USA on a TN-1 work visa when I met Mrs. Sauce. We were semi-engaged (we'd discussed marriage, but not timing) when my TN-1 visa was suddenly revoked ... my sponsoring company crapped out in the wake of 9/11.
We married right away and we are still married. I've had a green card for ~15 years now and I'm going to naturalize.
At that point, I was thirty years old -- old enough to be confident in my judgment that she was The One and so there was zero doubt in my mind that I wanted our future to be a shared one, and we had talked about that and about the significant role the INS would play in our relationship. No big proposals, just me saying "this becomes easier, officially, if we are married."
As my company foundered, we engaged an immigration attorney to explain our options. This was extremely helpful, as immigration law is a complete mess and is always in flux and there is a local component to consider as well ... the practices of one immigration office can differ from another. A lot of immigration law, somehow, comes down to the practices of the people executing it. A good attorney was key to our peace of mind, to explain our options and verify the correctness of our plans. His guidance actually surprised me in parts and made things a lot easier than I thought they'd be. Remember that this was in the aftermath of 9/11, when immigration law was getting patriot acted, and the authorities were running amok in panic and doing all sorts of questionable things.
Our preparation worked well for us, we had the big issues and questions basically covered when the immigration emergency happened, and got married with the minimal wait time allowed in Oregon (3 days, at the time)
aside: this INS shotgun wedding turned out to be a giant positive, the tight timeframe gave us cover to celebrate a small cool dog park wedding with our best local friends and not have to deal with a large expensive event and our families, who are various flavors of pain in the ass. I recommend this to everyone.
How do I feel about it now? Pretty positive -- the USA is my home, I have wonderful friends here, a career far beyond what I could've pursued at home, and my wife and I will celebrate our 20th anniversary next year. The USA has been good to me. However, the USA is on a bad road, though it has not hit our bugout point yet, so it's worth it to stay and fight here.
One thing to keep in mind is that none of the commitments you'd make to the USA if you settled here are permanent. A Green Card is not a permanent status, it has to be periodically renewed and in fact if you leave the USA for a long interval, USCIS might revoke it. Naturalization is reversable as well, the last I checked -- the USA will not require you to give up your original passport when you naturalize, and you can revoke your citizenship and its taxation and Selective Service obligations with a letter to the US government. (this is per my immigration attorney about three years ago). So if the USA goes fully shitty, you can break up with it.
You may want to consult an immigration attorney in your country of origin as well; tax laws and citizenship can get complicated.
Congratulations on finding your sweetheart and good luck!
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:00 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was in the USA on a TN-1 work visa when I met Mrs. Sauce. We were semi-engaged (we'd discussed marriage, but not timing) when my TN-1 visa was suddenly revoked ... my sponsoring company crapped out in the wake of 9/11.
We married right away and we are still married. I've had a green card for ~15 years now and I'm going to naturalize.
how did you decide to do it, how did you talk about it with your partner, and how do you feel about it now?(Note: the INS is the "Immigration and Naturalization Service", which turned into USCIS when Homeland Security happened)
At that point, I was thirty years old -- old enough to be confident in my judgment that she was The One and so there was zero doubt in my mind that I wanted our future to be a shared one, and we had talked about that and about the significant role the INS would play in our relationship. No big proposals, just me saying "this becomes easier, officially, if we are married."
As my company foundered, we engaged an immigration attorney to explain our options. This was extremely helpful, as immigration law is a complete mess and is always in flux and there is a local component to consider as well ... the practices of one immigration office can differ from another. A lot of immigration law, somehow, comes down to the practices of the people executing it. A good attorney was key to our peace of mind, to explain our options and verify the correctness of our plans. His guidance actually surprised me in parts and made things a lot easier than I thought they'd be. Remember that this was in the aftermath of 9/11, when immigration law was getting patriot acted, and the authorities were running amok in panic and doing all sorts of questionable things.
Our preparation worked well for us, we had the big issues and questions basically covered when the immigration emergency happened, and got married with the minimal wait time allowed in Oregon (3 days, at the time)
aside: this INS shotgun wedding turned out to be a giant positive, the tight timeframe gave us cover to celebrate a small cool dog park wedding with our best local friends and not have to deal with a large expensive event and our families, who are various flavors of pain in the ass. I recommend this to everyone.
How do I feel about it now? Pretty positive -- the USA is my home, I have wonderful friends here, a career far beyond what I could've pursued at home, and my wife and I will celebrate our 20th anniversary next year. The USA has been good to me. However, the USA is on a bad road, though it has not hit our bugout point yet, so it's worth it to stay and fight here.
One thing to keep in mind is that none of the commitments you'd make to the USA if you settled here are permanent. A Green Card is not a permanent status, it has to be periodically renewed and in fact if you leave the USA for a long interval, USCIS might revoke it. Naturalization is reversable as well, the last I checked -- the USA will not require you to give up your original passport when you naturalize, and you can revoke your citizenship and its taxation and Selective Service obligations with a letter to the US government. (this is per my immigration attorney about three years ago). So if the USA goes fully shitty, you can break up with it.
You may want to consult an immigration attorney in your country of origin as well; tax laws and citizenship can get complicated.
Congratulations on finding your sweetheart and good luck!
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:00 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
In my mid-20s I followed a sweetheart to another country where neither of us were citizens. There was little conversation other than, "If we love each other we'll make it work." Unfortunately, I was too young to understand how this move, to follow a white het-guy at the start of a big international career, would derail and impoverish me, a young woman just starting out in her not-so-fancy career. So some of my experience is doubly layered, not just with a foreign move but also with sexism and discrimination.
A lot will depend on how many "citizen-like" rights and benefits you have in the US at any given time. If you decide to stay but you'd be in a limbo where you can't work and might need to leave-to-stay, it starts to wear on you (your sense of your own ambition, path, journey, finances, culture, relationships, etc.). If however, you're able to make autonomous choices that support your own life goals while you also happen to be here with your sweetheart, that IMO would feel a lot better. In my case, because my partner and I had such different work situations and we weren't married, all of our assumptions and decisions centered on protecting his work arrangement because it was the legal and financial stake that supported us in country. Again, that dynamic made it difficult for the two of us to ever elevate my work and autonomy onto the discussion table for serious consideration. Eventually I returned home because my money ran out and the alternatives weren't palatable to me.
Given that you've been here a while, you might have friendships, networks, and job opportunities that would make your experience a lot better than mine. And you're more proactive than I was about conversations to have before making the leap! The conversations I would recommend are around feelings about citizenship, naturalization, and marriage; travel to and residence back in your home country at some point should you want to (i.e. look into what the inverse situation would be for your sweetheart so you're aware of what's possible later); sweetheart's openness to normal family/holiday travel to and from your home country; some kind of equity around careers; who will pay any legal fees associated with your stay (are you doing this, or are you doing it together?); health insurance options available to you in different stages of your process; finances; language desires if you speak different languages. For you alone, I would encourage you to outline some conditions under which you might return to your home country (alone, as in a break up, or together as in, leaving the US behind)... I mean, a lot of stuff. All the important stuff if you think your stay will be indefinite. And if you're a woman and your partner is a man, I would look at any career and financial negatives associated with a plan to stay and then amplify them as they ripple out into your life over time.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:54 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
A lot will depend on how many "citizen-like" rights and benefits you have in the US at any given time. If you decide to stay but you'd be in a limbo where you can't work and might need to leave-to-stay, it starts to wear on you (your sense of your own ambition, path, journey, finances, culture, relationships, etc.). If however, you're able to make autonomous choices that support your own life goals while you also happen to be here with your sweetheart, that IMO would feel a lot better. In my case, because my partner and I had such different work situations and we weren't married, all of our assumptions and decisions centered on protecting his work arrangement because it was the legal and financial stake that supported us in country. Again, that dynamic made it difficult for the two of us to ever elevate my work and autonomy onto the discussion table for serious consideration. Eventually I returned home because my money ran out and the alternatives weren't palatable to me.
Given that you've been here a while, you might have friendships, networks, and job opportunities that would make your experience a lot better than mine. And you're more proactive than I was about conversations to have before making the leap! The conversations I would recommend are around feelings about citizenship, naturalization, and marriage; travel to and residence back in your home country at some point should you want to (i.e. look into what the inverse situation would be for your sweetheart so you're aware of what's possible later); sweetheart's openness to normal family/holiday travel to and from your home country; some kind of equity around careers; who will pay any legal fees associated with your stay (are you doing this, or are you doing it together?); health insurance options available to you in different stages of your process; finances; language desires if you speak different languages. For you alone, I would encourage you to outline some conditions under which you might return to your home country (alone, as in a break up, or together as in, leaving the US behind)... I mean, a lot of stuff. All the important stuff if you think your stay will be indefinite. And if you're a woman and your partner is a man, I would look at any career and financial negatives associated with a plan to stay and then amplify them as they ripple out into your life over time.
posted by cocoagirl at 6:54 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Folks who've emigrated to another country (or made a similarly big life decision) for their SO, how did you decide to do it, how did you talk about it with your partner, and how do you feel about it now?
I've been in this situation twice (ah, the human condition). I certainly think that it becomes more difficult to make these moves the older you get, or at least the more entangled one gets in careers and life in general, but the fundamentals don't change: it comes down to your risk tolerance, and the value you place on intimate relationships. For me: I love a risk, a leap, and I love people and my relationships more than anything in my life. My ambition is much less professional and much more personal. The sense of opportunity in uncertainty is something that I find profoundly rewarding, a mixture of excitement and anxiousness that makes life feel lived in. It can be hard math, and you're the decider.
The first time, I was 26 year old man and I met a man 19 years my senior who lived 3,000 miles away (in the same country). At the time, he was in my city routinely for work. We hit it off in a noncommittal sort of way, since there was little pressure with the knowledge that his work trips would keep us in contact. And then, suddenly, his work situation changed. He was the one who brought up the possibility of relocating to my city, but he had three very young kids and I found it would be much more straightforward if I were the one to uproot and move. We asked all the questions of ourselves at that jumping-off point, principally: what if things change between us, will there be resentment or difficulty that is insurmountable? And, honestly, we couldn't answer that question. It didn't matter--I was young, deeply (albeit freshly) in love, and ready for a change. I moved and left behind the closest group of friends I'd ever had, in exchange for a wonderful relationship and parenthood. My partner was amazed and grateful. We made a good life and were together for 12 years, and I'm still dad to those kids, all of whom are over 18 now. The end of that relationship was tragic and more or less out of our control (it's in my Ask history), and it was among the saddest and most difficult times in my life, but would I change a thing? Other than some small things, no, no I don't think I would. That's because I find it's important that what you value in your thinking about this isn't only on the value that you and your sweetheart will generate. It's also all of the peripheral stuff that will constitute the life that you build in you new home: people, places, dogs, trips, camping, vacations, sickness, growth, sadness, joy, all of it. I feel good about having made that decision, for all its trials, and it took me a long time to close the book on that chapter of my life.
Now I'm 41 and I've just moved to another country. My oldest son moved here for an educational opportunity just before the pandemic and needed some support. Because of the pandemic, my work became hypermobile. And on a previous work trip here, I met a gentleman who piqued my interest in a way that I didn't expect to happen while I was still closing the chapter I mentioned above. This time, though, I made the decision unilaterally. I came because I wanted to, nothing more than that. I wanted to be here to help out my son. I wanted to be here to give this new relationship the opportunity to calmly, patiently grow into whatever it may become. I wanted to be here knowing that all decisions can be un-made if the feeling isn't right. I wanted to be here because I know that I would be regretful for not having taken another jump that felt like it had the potential to show me that I was capable of living in line with my values rather than fretting and ruminating and endlessly second guessing my next steps. It's still fresh, but I feel very good for having moved here.
This is a long winded way of saying, don't forget where you put you in this conversation. It's great and essential to talk to someone you call a sweetheart about your thinking on a move like this, but I think it's helpful (for now) to put yourself first. What do you want? What do you want out of life? Is taking a leap worth it for you even if it doesn't work out the way you had hoped? Are you comfortable with challenges and changes that are out of your control? If you can articulate that kind of story to yourself, and then to your sweetheart, the rest is administrative detail.
Break a leg!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:38 AM on April 20, 2021 [7 favorites]
I've been in this situation twice (ah, the human condition). I certainly think that it becomes more difficult to make these moves the older you get, or at least the more entangled one gets in careers and life in general, but the fundamentals don't change: it comes down to your risk tolerance, and the value you place on intimate relationships. For me: I love a risk, a leap, and I love people and my relationships more than anything in my life. My ambition is much less professional and much more personal. The sense of opportunity in uncertainty is something that I find profoundly rewarding, a mixture of excitement and anxiousness that makes life feel lived in. It can be hard math, and you're the decider.
The first time, I was 26 year old man and I met a man 19 years my senior who lived 3,000 miles away (in the same country). At the time, he was in my city routinely for work. We hit it off in a noncommittal sort of way, since there was little pressure with the knowledge that his work trips would keep us in contact. And then, suddenly, his work situation changed. He was the one who brought up the possibility of relocating to my city, but he had three very young kids and I found it would be much more straightforward if I were the one to uproot and move. We asked all the questions of ourselves at that jumping-off point, principally: what if things change between us, will there be resentment or difficulty that is insurmountable? And, honestly, we couldn't answer that question. It didn't matter--I was young, deeply (albeit freshly) in love, and ready for a change. I moved and left behind the closest group of friends I'd ever had, in exchange for a wonderful relationship and parenthood. My partner was amazed and grateful. We made a good life and were together for 12 years, and I'm still dad to those kids, all of whom are over 18 now. The end of that relationship was tragic and more or less out of our control (it's in my Ask history), and it was among the saddest and most difficult times in my life, but would I change a thing? Other than some small things, no, no I don't think I would. That's because I find it's important that what you value in your thinking about this isn't only on the value that you and your sweetheart will generate. It's also all of the peripheral stuff that will constitute the life that you build in you new home: people, places, dogs, trips, camping, vacations, sickness, growth, sadness, joy, all of it. I feel good about having made that decision, for all its trials, and it took me a long time to close the book on that chapter of my life.
Now I'm 41 and I've just moved to another country. My oldest son moved here for an educational opportunity just before the pandemic and needed some support. Because of the pandemic, my work became hypermobile. And on a previous work trip here, I met a gentleman who piqued my interest in a way that I didn't expect to happen while I was still closing the chapter I mentioned above. This time, though, I made the decision unilaterally. I came because I wanted to, nothing more than that. I wanted to be here to help out my son. I wanted to be here to give this new relationship the opportunity to calmly, patiently grow into whatever it may become. I wanted to be here knowing that all decisions can be un-made if the feeling isn't right. I wanted to be here because I know that I would be regretful for not having taken another jump that felt like it had the potential to show me that I was capable of living in line with my values rather than fretting and ruminating and endlessly second guessing my next steps. It's still fresh, but I feel very good for having moved here.
This is a long winded way of saying, don't forget where you put you in this conversation. It's great and essential to talk to someone you call a sweetheart about your thinking on a move like this, but I think it's helpful (for now) to put yourself first. What do you want? What do you want out of life? Is taking a leap worth it for you even if it doesn't work out the way you had hoped? Are you comfortable with challenges and changes that are out of your control? If you can articulate that kind of story to yourself, and then to your sweetheart, the rest is administrative detail.
Break a leg!
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:38 AM on April 20, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have moved once to a place for a partner and stayed in a place once for a partner (different people -___-)
Moving to the place decision: I wasn’t sold on the relationship but the place worked well for me for a myriad of reasons. Otherwise I think I would have major regrets.
This is only my view on the situation, but I approach any decision regarding choosing a path based on a relationship with the mantra “if I am asking myself if I should stay with this person I should NOT stay with this person”.
If it is a given that we will be together, like I can NOT bear a scenario in which we are NOT together, then I make it work.
If you choose to think about things this way, and you feel in your whole being that this is the right person for you, then it seems like you should approach this decision together and maybe put the option of returning to YOUR home on the table for both of you? If that’s possible logistically? Make a list of what the important things are to you both in life I.e. having a family (so consider the availability of child care etc.) career options, what kind of home could you have in each place etc.
This conversation might also be a great way to make sure you and your sweetheart are on the same page about the important stuff as well.
Also, I know you probably already know this, but through talking to several close friends and family members who have come to or left the US, I have learned that settling in a new country has a ripple effect that will span your entire life, and multiple generations of children should you choose to have them. Your great grandchildren will be raised away from their great-great grandparents’ homeland and if you are ancestrally from the place you moved from, they will be permanently separated from their ancestral homeland and ancestral culture, even if they choose to move back there themselves. This is something a LOT of people in the US struggle with—a sense of not having a place because we are not ancestrally from here but we do not know anything else. I guess what I’m saying is it’s not just a longer extended trip.
posted by leafmealone at 8:17 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Moving to the place decision: I wasn’t sold on the relationship but the place worked well for me for a myriad of reasons. Otherwise I think I would have major regrets.
This is only my view on the situation, but I approach any decision regarding choosing a path based on a relationship with the mantra “if I am asking myself if I should stay with this person I should NOT stay with this person”.
If it is a given that we will be together, like I can NOT bear a scenario in which we are NOT together, then I make it work.
If you choose to think about things this way, and you feel in your whole being that this is the right person for you, then it seems like you should approach this decision together and maybe put the option of returning to YOUR home on the table for both of you? If that’s possible logistically? Make a list of what the important things are to you both in life I.e. having a family (so consider the availability of child care etc.) career options, what kind of home could you have in each place etc.
This conversation might also be a great way to make sure you and your sweetheart are on the same page about the important stuff as well.
Also, I know you probably already know this, but through talking to several close friends and family members who have come to or left the US, I have learned that settling in a new country has a ripple effect that will span your entire life, and multiple generations of children should you choose to have them. Your great grandchildren will be raised away from their great-great grandparents’ homeland and if you are ancestrally from the place you moved from, they will be permanently separated from their ancestral homeland and ancestral culture, even if they choose to move back there themselves. This is something a LOT of people in the US struggle with—a sense of not having a place because we are not ancestrally from here but we do not know anything else. I guess what I’m saying is it’s not just a longer extended trip.
posted by leafmealone at 8:17 AM on April 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have almost moved for people but ultimately put my own needs first. I am glad because none of those relationships were “right.” I have zero regrets. I’m really glad I’ve moved abroad & back home on my own terms but certainly would consider it for someone who was a good match. I did make a big local move & major life changes for someone totally not worth it but it ended up being the right choice in the end: they were the catalyst rather than the cause even though the opposite felt true at first.
The US is my home & I love it here even if I also loathe a lot: if I weren’t the relatively privileged citizen that I am, it be much harder and less fun. The US is so overrated: living here as an immigrant can be a dream come true but it can also be a neverending nightmare. That said, most people I know who moved abroad for love aren’t super happy but that’s probably because they were initially running away from their issues. They have great lives imho but they feel something is missing. Those who moved to the US for love are quite happy even if they’re critical of a lot and miss home too.
Staying in the US isn’t a requirement or at least it’s not your only option. If your partner has to stay due to minor children or a relative needing help, staying is clearly the right option. But if it’s simply because things are better economically in the US or because your partner has no interest in learning your native language, then I’d reconsider your options and/or relationship. You can sometimes live on less abroad while working remotely so it’s not like they couldn’t earn a living, especially if married to you as a citizen. If they aren’t willing to at least try to learn your native language or consider living there for a bit, then maybe they’re too closed minded or simply more interested in their own comfort. Which is fine but not promising for a relationship!! I don’t know you or your situation really so I can’t say if your hesitant is truly about being stuck abroad forever — understandable but there are options — or a red herring when there’s a deeper issue in the relationship that’s manifesting itself as geographic hesitation.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:23 AM on April 20, 2021
The US is my home & I love it here even if I also loathe a lot: if I weren’t the relatively privileged citizen that I am, it be much harder and less fun. The US is so overrated: living here as an immigrant can be a dream come true but it can also be a neverending nightmare. That said, most people I know who moved abroad for love aren’t super happy but that’s probably because they were initially running away from their issues. They have great lives imho but they feel something is missing. Those who moved to the US for love are quite happy even if they’re critical of a lot and miss home too.
Staying in the US isn’t a requirement or at least it’s not your only option. If your partner has to stay due to minor children or a relative needing help, staying is clearly the right option. But if it’s simply because things are better economically in the US or because your partner has no interest in learning your native language, then I’d reconsider your options and/or relationship. You can sometimes live on less abroad while working remotely so it’s not like they couldn’t earn a living, especially if married to you as a citizen. If they aren’t willing to at least try to learn your native language or consider living there for a bit, then maybe they’re too closed minded or simply more interested in their own comfort. Which is fine but not promising for a relationship!! I don’t know you or your situation really so I can’t say if your hesitant is truly about being stuck abroad forever — understandable but there are options — or a red herring when there’s a deeper issue in the relationship that’s manifesting itself as geographic hesitation.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:23 AM on April 20, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 5:00 PM on April 19, 2021 [2 favorites]