Friend or Foe?
March 4, 2021 7:07 AM Subscribe
Coworker drama: Are these comments aggressive?
Scenario: Three employees who work in very close proximity. I am conflict avoidant and live and let live. I often have trouble asserting myself. Second employee, the employee I work with most and have an issue with, is rigid, opinionated, and moralistic. Third employee is a helper employee and with us some of the time. They are unassuming and easygoing.
My question: Is rigid employee's behavior intentionally aggressive? What am I missing? Am I taking her comments personally or not personally enough?
Coworker knows my politics lean left. Coworker will pointedly speak to third employee in my direct earshot on how current administration or current left politics are wrong/stupid/idiotic, etc. I say nothing because I refuse to discuss politics at work and this coworker is such a black and white thinker, and so firm in her stance in what is right and good, that discussing would be unproductive and not a respectful sharing of viewpoints. After she shares her opinions I act as if they were never said. I don't say a word and she doesn't ask my opinion or attempt to discuss any politics with me. A while ago when she was first hired I shared my political beliefs without knowing hers. I then avoided politics altogether, except once when I took the bait.
I find what she criticizes and seems genuinely bothered by banal and simpleminded. I think she watches what Fox is outraged by and adopts the outrage of the day. I try to keep this in perspective. She can be low, unsophisticated, and mean-spirited in her critiques and uses words like "retarded" "shitshow" "idiotic" "morons".
Sometimes I feel like a fool because I am still friendly with her and will even spend my lunch break with her. Most of the time my feeling is to allow her to be and say without getting offended or holding it against her. Because most of what she says I cannot take seriously. I still can't help to think that her comments are directed toward me and are intentionally aggressive.
I get the feeling that she is attempting to show that I am wrong and she is right. It's as if she is so bothered by my beliefs that she can't help to take a jab or she is so compelled to say something because she has to share what she knows and believes as "right".
Since I usually avoid conflict at all costs these sort of political comments seem adversarial and unnecessary. My feeling is that if we want to be friendly and keep it professional we should refrain from this sort of thing.
What am I missing? Are these comments normal or are they aggressive? Am I an idiot for still being friendly? Most of the time I can see that she's wrapped up in political ideas or opinions that don't matter in the big scheme so I let it go. I do wonder if I should protect myself more or if I'm being a fool? Or am I worrying too much about this altogether?
Scenario: Three employees who work in very close proximity. I am conflict avoidant and live and let live. I often have trouble asserting myself. Second employee, the employee I work with most and have an issue with, is rigid, opinionated, and moralistic. Third employee is a helper employee and with us some of the time. They are unassuming and easygoing.
My question: Is rigid employee's behavior intentionally aggressive? What am I missing? Am I taking her comments personally or not personally enough?
Coworker knows my politics lean left. Coworker will pointedly speak to third employee in my direct earshot on how current administration or current left politics are wrong/stupid/idiotic, etc. I say nothing because I refuse to discuss politics at work and this coworker is such a black and white thinker, and so firm in her stance in what is right and good, that discussing would be unproductive and not a respectful sharing of viewpoints. After she shares her opinions I act as if they were never said. I don't say a word and she doesn't ask my opinion or attempt to discuss any politics with me. A while ago when she was first hired I shared my political beliefs without knowing hers. I then avoided politics altogether, except once when I took the bait.
I find what she criticizes and seems genuinely bothered by banal and simpleminded. I think she watches what Fox is outraged by and adopts the outrage of the day. I try to keep this in perspective. She can be low, unsophisticated, and mean-spirited in her critiques and uses words like "retarded" "shitshow" "idiotic" "morons".
Sometimes I feel like a fool because I am still friendly with her and will even spend my lunch break with her. Most of the time my feeling is to allow her to be and say without getting offended or holding it against her. Because most of what she says I cannot take seriously. I still can't help to think that her comments are directed toward me and are intentionally aggressive.
I get the feeling that she is attempting to show that I am wrong and she is right. It's as if she is so bothered by my beliefs that she can't help to take a jab or she is so compelled to say something because she has to share what she knows and believes as "right".
Since I usually avoid conflict at all costs these sort of political comments seem adversarial and unnecessary. My feeling is that if we want to be friendly and keep it professional we should refrain from this sort of thing.
What am I missing? Are these comments normal or are they aggressive? Am I an idiot for still being friendly? Most of the time I can see that she's wrapped up in political ideas or opinions that don't matter in the big scheme so I let it go. I do wonder if I should protect myself more or if I'm being a fool? Or am I worrying too much about this altogether?
Yeah, this would get to me too. I lean left and have coworkers who lean right but they don't act like this (for the most part). Occasionally someone does. I use the philosophy of Stupid & Cheerful, as espoused by radio advice psychologist Dr. Joy Brown:
Dr. Joy spoke about how she subscribed to the “stupid and cheerful” philosophy on life. “I am a great fan of “stupid and cheerful.” If someone says something negative, instead of responding, “Oh my God, I can’t believe you said that,” turn it around. Try saying, “It’s so helpful to have somebody give me feedback.” If you just take the superficial approach to things that may be hurtful or insulting, it makes the other person do the heavy lifting. If they really want to criticize, they are going to have to do more work. So if you respond to, “Gee, you look tired,” with “It’s because I have too much to do here,” you took on all of the work. If someone is trying to insult you, let them do the work. And if that wasn’t their intention, a negative reply just might have cost you an ally. Keep your response neutral, “simple and stupid!”
I would do the same thing you're doing. You obviously aren't going to change her mind but anybody watching these interactions is going to see how chill and reasonable you are.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:20 AM on March 4, 2021 [21 favorites]
Dr. Joy spoke about how she subscribed to the “stupid and cheerful” philosophy on life. “I am a great fan of “stupid and cheerful.” If someone says something negative, instead of responding, “Oh my God, I can’t believe you said that,” turn it around. Try saying, “It’s so helpful to have somebody give me feedback.” If you just take the superficial approach to things that may be hurtful or insulting, it makes the other person do the heavy lifting. If they really want to criticize, they are going to have to do more work. So if you respond to, “Gee, you look tired,” with “It’s because I have too much to do here,” you took on all of the work. If someone is trying to insult you, let them do the work. And if that wasn’t their intention, a negative reply just might have cost you an ally. Keep your response neutral, “simple and stupid!”
I would do the same thing you're doing. You obviously aren't going to change her mind but anybody watching these interactions is going to see how chill and reasonable you are.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:20 AM on March 4, 2021 [21 favorites]
Yes, they are kind of aggressive and not normal. The "normal" way for everyone in your cluster to behave is to recognize (as you do) that discussing politics is not going to be a fruitful pursuit and to just leave that stuff at home and talk about other things. If everyone does that, everyone can get along, sometimes surprisingly well.
You do recognize that, and are attempting to behave as if that's the situation, but it's not, because your right-leaning coworker doesn't recognize it. Either she gets a kick out of pissing you off, even if you don't show it, or she's doing this as a kind of power move, or she's just cluelessly naive. Doesn't matter which.
So you have two options — (1) keep acting as you are, let it go, and don't worry about it, as you say you are doing. It's working, why change. Or (2) suggest to her that life would be better for all three of you if you agreed to leave politics at home, and talk about other things, as you have been trying to do. Then, (a) There's a chance she'll agree and follow through, in which case everyone is happy. (b) There's a chance there is no change, in which case you have the status quo and you've been OK with that. And (c) there's a chance she'll ratchet up the rhetoric, which will make you miserable, and perhaps create a situation you'll need to take to HR. You need to calculate the odds of the happier outcomes, (a) or (b), happening, and decide whether taking step (2) is worth the risk of (c) happening. In other words, the outcomes are Good, Better, or Best, plus Worse if you try for Best but it fails. So do you want a guaranteed Good or Better outcome, or do you want to try for the Best outcome and risk Worse happening.
posted by beagle at 7:23 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
You do recognize that, and are attempting to behave as if that's the situation, but it's not, because your right-leaning coworker doesn't recognize it. Either she gets a kick out of pissing you off, even if you don't show it, or she's doing this as a kind of power move, or she's just cluelessly naive. Doesn't matter which.
So you have two options — (1) keep acting as you are, let it go, and don't worry about it, as you say you are doing. It's working, why change. Or (2) suggest to her that life would be better for all three of you if you agreed to leave politics at home, and talk about other things, as you have been trying to do. Then, (a) There's a chance she'll agree and follow through, in which case everyone is happy. (b) There's a chance there is no change, in which case you have the status quo and you've been OK with that. And (c) there's a chance she'll ratchet up the rhetoric, which will make you miserable, and perhaps create a situation you'll need to take to HR. You need to calculate the odds of the happier outcomes, (a) or (b), happening, and decide whether taking step (2) is worth the risk of (c) happening. In other words, the outcomes are Good, Better, or Best, plus Worse if you try for Best but it fails. So do you want a guaranteed Good or Better outcome, or do you want to try for the Best outcome and risk Worse happening.
posted by beagle at 7:23 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Your coworker is a piece of shit and is trying to bait you into an argument by making these comments, and by making these comments to another person she's setting it up so that you'll look bad when you "butt in" on their conversation. My father-in-law did this kind of shit to me for years. I have finally realized that the right approach (for me) is to "believe people when they tell/show you who they are", and adjust your relationship with them accordingly.
In this case you have to work with this person, but you don't have to be friends with her. Be sufficiently cordial that your work doesn't suffer, but for your own mental health I give you permission to quit having lunch with her. If her tirades are interrupting a work interaction, you are fully justified in steering the topic back to the work at hand.
posted by heatherlogan at 7:37 AM on March 4, 2021 [23 favorites]
In this case you have to work with this person, but you don't have to be friends with her. Be sufficiently cordial that your work doesn't suffer, but for your own mental health I give you permission to quit having lunch with her. If her tirades are interrupting a work interaction, you are fully justified in steering the topic back to the work at hand.
posted by heatherlogan at 7:37 AM on March 4, 2021 [23 favorites]
If the aggression is only around politics— I’d just tell her what you want. E.g., “I’d like to not discuss politics at work”. And “I’d like to not hear you talking about politics at work”
posted by u2604ab at 7:40 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by u2604ab at 7:40 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
STOP BEING FRIENDLY WITH PEOPLE WHO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD
Sorry. Just. Like, stop eating with this person. Do your job to the extent you have to interact with her, but don't expose any other piece of yourself to her nonsense. You don't have to. You don't get paid more to interact with her on a more-than-work level, so don't.
I am a very loudly an openly liberal person and have plenty of coworkers who are not. When we have to interact politics do not come up at all, because there is nothing past a work level that we interact on, ever. If we are stuck near each other at a work party and they say something I disagree with, I have literally said "wow, that's a terrible opinion!" and removed myself to be near people who do not suck so openly.
posted by phunniemee at 7:43 AM on March 4, 2021 [41 favorites]
Sorry. Just. Like, stop eating with this person. Do your job to the extent you have to interact with her, but don't expose any other piece of yourself to her nonsense. You don't have to. You don't get paid more to interact with her on a more-than-work level, so don't.
I am a very loudly an openly liberal person and have plenty of coworkers who are not. When we have to interact politics do not come up at all, because there is nothing past a work level that we interact on, ever. If we are stuck near each other at a work party and they say something I disagree with, I have literally said "wow, that's a terrible opinion!" and removed myself to be near people who do not suck so openly.
posted by phunniemee at 7:43 AM on March 4, 2021 [41 favorites]
The last few decades have produced a subset of people that exist entirely in the political world mentally - their entire identity has been tied to it, and for some of them it's all they think about. Without talking about reasons, many of these people lean right. What I've found is that when someone has chosen this brainspace, you will not have success changing their thought processes.
I grew up in an area where I had political views (and world views) very different from the majority. I spent many frustrating years trying to "fix" people's perspectives - over all that time I could probably count my successes on one hand. As I've matured, I've come to accept that there is a certain saturation point or personality type or whatever that once a person has committed to a set of views, it is functionally impossible to change them. When their thoughts are being supported 23.5 hours a day by the media they choose to consume, me talking to them for half an hours will do nothing to move them.
This isn't something you will solve by going to the person. You can probably have some success asking them to put a lid on it - the whole "I don't want to talk about politics at work" idea - but ultimately you won't change how they think or how they think of you. You should do this regardless of whether you think it will actually work or not, because it shows process.
The best approach to this problem is from an HR perspective - a co-worker is talking loudly about politics and it makes you uncomfortable. You have (or will) asked them to stop and they will not and they are using politics to harass you. Those are the keywords that should get the attention of any supervisor or HR person and get them to intervene on your behalf.
Sorry to hear that you are dealing with this - it's disappointing we live in a world where people act like this, but I like to think (or at least hope) that there are enough kind, considerate people in the world that problems like this will get resolved. Good luck!
posted by _DB_ at 7:44 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
I grew up in an area where I had political views (and world views) very different from the majority. I spent many frustrating years trying to "fix" people's perspectives - over all that time I could probably count my successes on one hand. As I've matured, I've come to accept that there is a certain saturation point or personality type or whatever that once a person has committed to a set of views, it is functionally impossible to change them. When their thoughts are being supported 23.5 hours a day by the media they choose to consume, me talking to them for half an hours will do nothing to move them.
This isn't something you will solve by going to the person. You can probably have some success asking them to put a lid on it - the whole "I don't want to talk about politics at work" idea - but ultimately you won't change how they think or how they think of you. You should do this regardless of whether you think it will actually work or not, because it shows process.
The best approach to this problem is from an HR perspective - a co-worker is talking loudly about politics and it makes you uncomfortable. You have (or will) asked them to stop and they will not and they are using politics to harass you. Those are the keywords that should get the attention of any supervisor or HR person and get them to intervene on your behalf.
Sorry to hear that you are dealing with this - it's disappointing we live in a world where people act like this, but I like to think (or at least hope) that there are enough kind, considerate people in the world that problems like this will get resolved. Good luck!
posted by _DB_ at 7:44 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
I was with you until the word "retard." That is unacceptable and you know that, and she should too. I would react pretty strongly if someone said that in my presence. "Whoa, that's an offensive word! Please don't use the R word." In general, I think it's important to be a friendly Democrat because there are so many conspiracy theories that liberals are evil and you know, actual pedophiles and cannibals. When it comes to the MAGA people in my life that I have to interact with, I feel the only thing I can do to confront this kind of crazy thinking is by being an obvious counter part to it. So that hopefully when they're faced with Q crap, they pause and think "well, area person has never eaten a baby in my presence... maybe that is not true." But I feel the same kind of anxiety that you probably do when these people are rude, because why should I be friendly to people who literally think I'm a demon?
Since this is a person you do not have to be friends with, I would not be friends with this person any more. I would not want to have lunch with them because they are not fun to have lunch with. It's worthwhile to tell them why, if you want to, because you might personally feel good about speaking up for yourself. So you could say "You know I don't agree with you and don't want to talk politics. I'm going to have lunch somewhere else from now on." If you're like me, that kind of confrontation is almost impossible to have, so I would just say "nah I have different plans for lunch today..." and repeat as needed. You'll have to try to not engage in casual conversation with them again. It's hard to change the status quo in that way, but for me the time for these "no politics" friends is over and I'd prefer to not have any friends who are blatantly hateful to me.
posted by areaperson at 7:55 AM on March 4, 2021 [9 favorites]
Since this is a person you do not have to be friends with, I would not be friends with this person any more. I would not want to have lunch with them because they are not fun to have lunch with. It's worthwhile to tell them why, if you want to, because you might personally feel good about speaking up for yourself. So you could say "You know I don't agree with you and don't want to talk politics. I'm going to have lunch somewhere else from now on." If you're like me, that kind of confrontation is almost impossible to have, so I would just say "nah I have different plans for lunch today..." and repeat as needed. You'll have to try to not engage in casual conversation with them again. It's hard to change the status quo in that way, but for me the time for these "no politics" friends is over and I'd prefer to not have any friends who are blatantly hateful to me.
posted by areaperson at 7:55 AM on March 4, 2021 [9 favorites]
I will disagree slightly with the other posters and say your coworker is being aggressive but it may have nothing to do with you personally and is not likely to be intentional. For many people with right wing beliefs it is a very central part of their self identity, and being around people with liberal beliefs can make them uncomfortable and feel attacked because they do not like having their beliefs questioned. Unless you are very close to them it will be impossible to change their beliefs here. So yes I think she is trying to show that she is right and you are wrong, but it's probably not really conscious and she is not seriously trying to change your politics. She's also likely to be pretty touchy about it if you bring it up.
If the comments from your coworker are specifically tied to one of your identities (gender, race, etc) then I would take it up with HR as that is individually targeted and inappropriate. Otherwise I don't think there's much you can do here because she is talking to third employee and you're not directly involved. I would ask third employee what they think, maybe they do feel attacked by it and with your encouragement could bring it up and enforce a no politics rule.
posted by JZig at 8:12 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
If the comments from your coworker are specifically tied to one of your identities (gender, race, etc) then I would take it up with HR as that is individually targeted and inappropriate. Otherwise I don't think there's much you can do here because she is talking to third employee and you're not directly involved. I would ask third employee what they think, maybe they do feel attacked by it and with your encouragement could bring it up and enforce a no politics rule.
posted by JZig at 8:12 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
I just want to give you the option of continuing to act friendly and have lunch with her from time to time if that is more comfortable for you. If it makes you feel more relaxed to just do your usual easy-to-get-along-with thing, you aren't required to be cold and distant if that makes things more stressful for you. So, totally create more distance if being around her stresses you out but it is more a matter of doing what is best for you rather than a moral requirements.
posted by metahawk at 8:16 AM on March 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by metahawk at 8:16 AM on March 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
Maybe check in with person #3 to see how she feels about the political conversations. Let her know that you prefer a "no political discussions" in the office but co-worker #2 really likes them. You want to support #3 in saying "no" if that is her preference but obviously if she is enjoying them, then that is her choice.
posted by metahawk at 8:19 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by metahawk at 8:19 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Some people enjoy oversharing and are clueless when they do so.
I'm not about to attribute a "motive" to their behavior without knowing them long-term.
With that said, if you are not comfortable with X's views, yet is not comfortable enough to bring it up in a face-to-face talk, you two are NOT friends. You two are merely acquaintances; you two are friendly toward each other but ARE NOT FRIENDS.
posted by kschang at 8:25 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not about to attribute a "motive" to their behavior without knowing them long-term.
With that said, if you are not comfortable with X's views, yet is not comfortable enough to bring it up in a face-to-face talk, you two are NOT friends. You two are merely acquaintances; you two are friendly toward each other but ARE NOT FRIENDS.
posted by kschang at 8:25 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
“How about we don’t discuss politics at work, and just keep this professional.”
When that doesn’t work.
“I’d like you to keep your political opinions to yourself at work. I’d hate to have to bring this up to H.R., but it’s becoming a problem and starting to interfere with the job.”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:29 AM on March 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
When that doesn’t work.
“I’d like you to keep your political opinions to yourself at work. I’d hate to have to bring this up to H.R., but it’s becoming a problem and starting to interfere with the job.”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:29 AM on March 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
Your comments are pretty general. I suspect she displays a sense of superiority and gotcha that's really unpleasant, and I'd bet she engages in many microaggressions. You're not interested in engaging, so don't. But there are subtle ways to make your point that will deflate her a bit, and that would help restore a bit of balance. Make routine comments about how bringing extreme partisan opinions into the workplace is unprofessional (it is) or about how unfortunate it is that people trust extreme news sources that have to call themselves entertainment, because their 'news' is so false. Occasionally bring legitimate newspapers in to work.
I'd be friendly, but never, ever share personal info, and never trust this person.
posted by theora55 at 9:14 AM on March 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'd be friendly, but never, ever share personal info, and never trust this person.
posted by theora55 at 9:14 AM on March 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
If they are deliberately trying to ‘bait’ you by pointedly making these remarks in front of you, isn’t that pretty much textbook passive aggressiveness? With the plausible deniability of ‘Oh but I wasn’t talking to you, i can’t help it if you overhear or eavesdrop’.
You could address it, escalate etc. If you don’t choose to, the alternative is to try and tune it out as best you can, try to imagine their voice is a chicken squawking or something really ridiculous.
Either way, I would withdraw socially from this person, and just be cordial but distant. I’m not sure it’s good for your mental health to spend free time with someone who feels this level of contempt for a group they perceive you belong to. Expressing these kind of beliefs will have consequences - even if the consequence is just having no one to lunch with.
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:14 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
You could address it, escalate etc. If you don’t choose to, the alternative is to try and tune it out as best you can, try to imagine their voice is a chicken squawking or something really ridiculous.
Either way, I would withdraw socially from this person, and just be cordial but distant. I’m not sure it’s good for your mental health to spend free time with someone who feels this level of contempt for a group they perceive you belong to. Expressing these kind of beliefs will have consequences - even if the consequence is just having no one to lunch with.
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:14 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am not clear why you think these comments to third worker by second worker is meant for you. I think they are meant for the person with whom they are speaking, but if they are meant for you, ignore them until she says them directly to you. Then smile and say that that is interesting, but you do not talk politics at work.
posted by AugustWest at 9:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 9:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
In general, I think it's important to be a friendly Democrat because there are so many conspiracy theories that liberals are evil and you know, actual pedophiles and cannibals.
I would like to disagree with this. I do not think it's important to be friendly to people who suck. Being kind to people who go out of their way to be rude and cruel eats your soul, and leaves you with less energy to spend being kind to yourself and others who need and want your kindness.
If someone wants to go around and tell others that I am a literal cannibal and eat babies, I welcome and encourage them to do so. It's not me who's going to look like a jackass. And if it has the added benefit that people who genuinely believe nonsense like that will avoid me lest I eat them, that is all the better for me.
posted by phunniemee at 9:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
I would like to disagree with this. I do not think it's important to be friendly to people who suck. Being kind to people who go out of their way to be rude and cruel eats your soul, and leaves you with less energy to spend being kind to yourself and others who need and want your kindness.
If someone wants to go around and tell others that I am a literal cannibal and eat babies, I welcome and encourage them to do so. It's not me who's going to look like a jackass. And if it has the added benefit that people who genuinely believe nonsense like that will avoid me lest I eat them, that is all the better for me.
posted by phunniemee at 9:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [20 favorites]
I agree with you, phuniemee, that’s what I was trying to say in the next part of my comment. Unfortunately it’s not my experience that conspiracy theorists always DO look like jackasses when they expose their beliefs.
OP: It is my experience that the old “no politics” status quo you are being advised to follow is outdated. That was the standard in business and families, and I wish it still worked, but it’s a different time. Pretending this person calling people “retards” or that her fake “both sides” argument is a political disagreement validates her actions. This is not politics to them and I’d be shocked if she cares about anyone’s boundaries. They don’t care who wants to hear their view because this is not her opinion- it is her crusade.
The more I think about this, the more I think this person is acting extremely aggressively. It’s interesting this is posed as a question or you’re not sure about that. I think you should be careful around this person. She must be charming or interesting in some way that she’s able to pull off this kind of behavior and simultaneously be friendly at lunch time. I wonder if you’re worried about how co-worker three will act, or if the bully co-worker will more aggressively try to pit you against them if you speak up. Are you worried co worker 3 will get more negative attention if you’re not the one to deflect it? I’m not sure if you could prevent that. It might help if you try to talk to co-worker 3 to give them warning. Maybe you tell them you have decided not to interact with the other colleague beyond work. This conversation could help you gauge if co-worker 3 is also offended by the comments (because I think you don’t know for sure?) If they are, it would be nice for you to have an ally if you do decide to report to hr. (But if this is a conservative office or you are in a red state, I can also understand why you would not want to report it). In any case, as also stated above it is a good idea to not share personal information with rude coworker or trust her at all. I am also not feeling trust worthy toward co-worker 3 because it sounds like they may be siding with the problem co-worker, or may start to.
posted by areaperson at 10:20 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
OP: It is my experience that the old “no politics” status quo you are being advised to follow is outdated. That was the standard in business and families, and I wish it still worked, but it’s a different time. Pretending this person calling people “retards” or that her fake “both sides” argument is a political disagreement validates her actions. This is not politics to them and I’d be shocked if she cares about anyone’s boundaries. They don’t care who wants to hear their view because this is not her opinion- it is her crusade.
The more I think about this, the more I think this person is acting extremely aggressively. It’s interesting this is posed as a question or you’re not sure about that. I think you should be careful around this person. She must be charming or interesting in some way that she’s able to pull off this kind of behavior and simultaneously be friendly at lunch time. I wonder if you’re worried about how co-worker three will act, or if the bully co-worker will more aggressively try to pit you against them if you speak up. Are you worried co worker 3 will get more negative attention if you’re not the one to deflect it? I’m not sure if you could prevent that. It might help if you try to talk to co-worker 3 to give them warning. Maybe you tell them you have decided not to interact with the other colleague beyond work. This conversation could help you gauge if co-worker 3 is also offended by the comments (because I think you don’t know for sure?) If they are, it would be nice for you to have an ally if you do decide to report to hr. (But if this is a conservative office or you are in a red state, I can also understand why you would not want to report it). In any case, as also stated above it is a good idea to not share personal information with rude coworker or trust her at all. I am also not feeling trust worthy toward co-worker 3 because it sounds like they may be siding with the problem co-worker, or may start to.
posted by areaperson at 10:20 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you coworker is talking to someone else, not including you, and generally not interacting with you in any way while having these discussions, then I'm not sure what you would expect to happen. You can't hope to police what two other adults are discussing.
“I’d like you to keep your political opinions to yourself at work. I’d hate to have to bring this up to H.R., but it’s becoming a problem and starting to interfere with the job.”
Going to HR and complaining about two other people talking about something that wouldn't get them fired in and of itself is likely going to be much worse for you than it will be for them. You will be the troublesome employee that needs to go, not the two people talking amongst themselves and not with you.
posted by sideshow at 10:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
“I’d like you to keep your political opinions to yourself at work. I’d hate to have to bring this up to H.R., but it’s becoming a problem and starting to interfere with the job.”
Going to HR and complaining about two other people talking about something that wouldn't get them fired in and of itself is likely going to be much worse for you than it will be for them. You will be the troublesome employee that needs to go, not the two people talking amongst themselves and not with you.
posted by sideshow at 10:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Can you put on headphones when they start discussing politics?
posted by LakeDream at 11:39 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by LakeDream at 11:39 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Re: H.R.: It’s not about getting them fired, far from it.
It’s about H.R. talking to the one and saying:
Religion and Politics have no place in The Bar or The Job.
Anyone who doesn’t abide to that is going out of their way to be an asshole.
And they know it.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:54 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
It’s about H.R. talking to the one and saying:
“You are going out of your way to be hostile to your co-worker. The Bar and The Job are the two places you don’t fucking bring up religion or politics. Knock it off and keep it professional. Because what you are doing now is going out of your way to be disruptive via non-work related subjects.”You don’t have to be engaged in a fireable offence for H.R. to pull you aside and say “You are are fucking up”. And given that the job is not a policy one, it is 100% within H.R.’s bailiwick to say
Not all you co-workers share your political opinions, and they are not pertinent to the job you are paid to to. You have a right to hold your political opinions. You do not have the right to be confrontational and hostile to your co-workers. Keep it professional.The idea that H.R. does nothing but fire people is... a profoundly contracted perspective on what that office does, and the OP should not buy into such nonsense.
Religion and Politics have no place in The Bar or The Job.
Anyone who doesn’t abide to that is going out of their way to be an asshole.
And they know it.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:54 AM on March 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
There are two parts to this problem, I think.
1) Co-worker likes talking about her politics, which are generally fueled by right-wing outrage machine.
2) Co-worker is creating a hostile work environment that is making it harder for people (like the OP) to do their job.
I'd go to HR, but I focus less on problem #1 and more on problem #2. Like others have said, it's hard to make the case someone shouldn't be talking about politics, from a legal standpoint. But, most workplaces have standards of professional behavior for a reason, and generally using words like "retard" are not tolerated. When/if you go to HR, I'd try to avoid making it personal - the problem isn't that she's on the right and you're on the left, the problem is she is frequently negative and rude, which makes it harder for work to happen. HR should talk to her about keeping her demeanor professional and pleasant.
posted by coffeecat at 12:19 PM on March 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
1) Co-worker likes talking about her politics, which are generally fueled by right-wing outrage machine.
2) Co-worker is creating a hostile work environment that is making it harder for people (like the OP) to do their job.
I'd go to HR, but I focus less on problem #1 and more on problem #2. Like others have said, it's hard to make the case someone shouldn't be talking about politics, from a legal standpoint. But, most workplaces have standards of professional behavior for a reason, and generally using words like "retard" are not tolerated. When/if you go to HR, I'd try to avoid making it personal - the problem isn't that she's on the right and you're on the left, the problem is she is frequently negative and rude, which makes it harder for work to happen. HR should talk to her about keeping her demeanor professional and pleasant.
posted by coffeecat at 12:19 PM on March 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
"I've had about enough of that."
When she says, good gracious me, I don't know what you mean: "Political commentary is unwelcome in here. Confine that to your non-professional zone."
No "please." She knows it stresses you out and never asked for your permission. Don't ask for her consideration and don't refer to your feelings. She doesn't care. Just tell her to cut it out.
HR is always a roll of the dice and I wouldn't go near it. At all.
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:44 PM on March 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
When she says, good gracious me, I don't know what you mean: "Political commentary is unwelcome in here. Confine that to your non-professional zone."
No "please." She knows it stresses you out and never asked for your permission. Don't ask for her consideration and don't refer to your feelings. She doesn't care. Just tell her to cut it out.
HR is always a roll of the dice and I wouldn't go near it. At all.
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:44 PM on March 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for the very helpful answers. I lean on the side of not trusting her and I haven't trusted her for some time with personal information. On one hand I don't care if she knew my life story because I don't care what she thinks about me. I do care if I'm being fair and reasonable.
This person can be perplexing because she has given me gifts, tried to do me favors, nominated me for an award (when we first started working together). This person is not my cup of tea but since we work so closely I have to be cordial and relaxed because my usual MO of clamming up and shutting down when around difficult people causes more stress. I clammed up and shut down for a couple weeks but that wasn't working. I've become even more of the "stupid and cheerful" person that selfmedicating referenced. It works quite well most of the time, so thank you for this reminder.
The third coworker is on her side of politics. As of late, he is often the person who brings up politics when he reads controversial headlines from his phone. He doesn't bother me because he doesn't appear to have ulterior motives. I think he's just clueless. And I've told him I avoid discussing politics at work. He either doesn't remember or care.
I could go into a lot more detail on how much politics are discussed and how my coworker has tried to get me to admit to certain things about former POTUS. I didn't "admit" anything and said nothing in response to her demands. I need to say something, not care, understand that their behavior has nothing to do with me, or leave. Thank you again for these answers.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:35 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
This person can be perplexing because she has given me gifts, tried to do me favors, nominated me for an award (when we first started working together). This person is not my cup of tea but since we work so closely I have to be cordial and relaxed because my usual MO of clamming up and shutting down when around difficult people causes more stress. I clammed up and shut down for a couple weeks but that wasn't working. I've become even more of the "stupid and cheerful" person that selfmedicating referenced. It works quite well most of the time, so thank you for this reminder.
The third coworker is on her side of politics. As of late, he is often the person who brings up politics when he reads controversial headlines from his phone. He doesn't bother me because he doesn't appear to have ulterior motives. I think he's just clueless. And I've told him I avoid discussing politics at work. He either doesn't remember or care.
I could go into a lot more detail on how much politics are discussed and how my coworker has tried to get me to admit to certain things about former POTUS. I didn't "admit" anything and said nothing in response to her demands. I need to say something, not care, understand that their behavior has nothing to do with me, or leave. Thank you again for these answers.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:35 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
This person is using offensive language in the workplace. The fact that they’re not saying it to the OP doesn’t make it less egregious. Think of some other terribly offensive term. Racist even. (I’m sure you can) Now imagine they’re throwing that around. The fact it’s not directed at the OP doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to use it.
This colleague needs an absolute talking to from HR about the fact they’re creating a hostile work environment. Right now they’re doing it because they’re allowed to get away with it. I’d let them know that’s not the case anymore and I’d definitely stop going to lunch with them.
posted by Jubey at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
This colleague needs an absolute talking to from HR about the fact they’re creating a hostile work environment. Right now they’re doing it because they’re allowed to get away with it. I’d let them know that’s not the case anymore and I’d definitely stop going to lunch with them.
posted by Jubey at 3:02 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd just go to HR, explain the hostile work environment and let them deal with it.
And don't interact with this person outside of the bare minimum.
Use headphones when you can.
posted by signal at 5:33 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
And don't interact with this person outside of the bare minimum.
Use headphones when you can.
posted by signal at 5:33 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I feel like a fool because I am still friendly with her and will even spend my lunch break with her.
It sounds like you are not going "to lunch" with her so much as you are taking a lunch break and there she is too, and you don't want to tell her to go away because you are conflict avoidant. Like in a company cafeteria or something.
If you would rather not spend your lunch break with her, but can't bear to actually say so, here is an idea. Tell her you have decided to use your lunch break to work on learning some new skill, keeping up with the latest news on your industry, something. Something that you can learn by listening to podcasts. Wear headphones. If she wants to talk with you at lunch smile slightly and tap your headphones. You don't have to actually listen to your learning podcast every time, but you will want to know enough about whatever it is that you can say something about it.
posted by yohko at 12:12 PM on March 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you are not going "to lunch" with her so much as you are taking a lunch break and there she is too, and you don't want to tell her to go away because you are conflict avoidant. Like in a company cafeteria or something.
If you would rather not spend your lunch break with her, but can't bear to actually say so, here is an idea. Tell her you have decided to use your lunch break to work on learning some new skill, keeping up with the latest news on your industry, something. Something that you can learn by listening to podcasts. Wear headphones. If she wants to talk with you at lunch smile slightly and tap your headphones. You don't have to actually listen to your learning podcast every time, but you will want to know enough about whatever it is that you can say something about it.
posted by yohko at 12:12 PM on March 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Lots of good advice here, and I agree with the usefulness of the "stupid and cheerful" play.
One aspect that hasn't been addressed is your own comfort level with where things stand. If you're to keep the status quo (and that is totally a logical and legitimate option, no judgment), then perhaps what might help you is to change how you see things. You know that southern phrase "Bless her heart"? If you can engender that kind of thinking within yourself, it might help you reduce your stress. If you're able to laugh a little (internally) and feel pity for a person who is annoying the fuck out of you, it can go a long way to helping you deal when you're kind of powerless to really change the situation. Think of her as a school child who rants about the lunch options every day, or the other kids at recess, whatever.
And if it gets worse or you just can't tolerate any more of her childishness, you still have the option of confronting the issue in some other way.
posted by wwartorff at 5:01 PM on March 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
One aspect that hasn't been addressed is your own comfort level with where things stand. If you're to keep the status quo (and that is totally a logical and legitimate option, no judgment), then perhaps what might help you is to change how you see things. You know that southern phrase "Bless her heart"? If you can engender that kind of thinking within yourself, it might help you reduce your stress. If you're able to laugh a little (internally) and feel pity for a person who is annoying the fuck out of you, it can go a long way to helping you deal when you're kind of powerless to really change the situation. Think of her as a school child who rants about the lunch options every day, or the other kids at recess, whatever.
And if it gets worse or you just can't tolerate any more of her childishness, you still have the option of confronting the issue in some other way.
posted by wwartorff at 5:01 PM on March 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:13 AM on March 4, 2021 [11 favorites]