Non-initiators, how do you express interest/desire?
October 31, 2020 11:18 AM Subscribe
And people on the receiving end of this dynamic, what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
I tend to think that a healthy relationship between two people has a fair amount of variation in terms of who initiates (suggests a plan for tonight, says something about how their day went, calls/texts, offers a hug, or whatever). But I've encountered a number of people who just never initiate. They will happily say yes to whatever I'm proposing, and they do appear to genuinely enjoy it, but they will basically never suggest something of their own accord.
When this happens I feel quite conflicted. On the one hand, we usually have a good time doing whatever I said I wanted to do. On the other hand, if this pattern of matching but not exceeding my energy goes on for long enough (and I'm talking weeks or months), I will eventually feel like they're just... accommodating me, putting up with me and my desires. I end up feeling unwanted due to their perceived lack of interest, and also like I'm doing all the work and it's very one-sided. And if I try to dial down my energy to match theirs, what ends up happening is they further dial down their energy to match mine. Since they don't initiate on their own, our interactions just fizzle out entirely, which feels quite sad.
I'm starting to think this is something of a cultural divide, similar to ask/guess or extrovert/introvert. I'd like to understand a bit more about the other side's style.
Non-initiators, do you ever actually experience interest/desire? If so, how do you express it?
If you're on the receiving side, how do you know your non-initiator friend or partner actually wants you in their life?
And people for whom a balance of initiation feels important, what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
I tend to think that a healthy relationship between two people has a fair amount of variation in terms of who initiates (suggests a plan for tonight, says something about how their day went, calls/texts, offers a hug, or whatever). But I've encountered a number of people who just never initiate. They will happily say yes to whatever I'm proposing, and they do appear to genuinely enjoy it, but they will basically never suggest something of their own accord.
When this happens I feel quite conflicted. On the one hand, we usually have a good time doing whatever I said I wanted to do. On the other hand, if this pattern of matching but not exceeding my energy goes on for long enough (and I'm talking weeks or months), I will eventually feel like they're just... accommodating me, putting up with me and my desires. I end up feeling unwanted due to their perceived lack of interest, and also like I'm doing all the work and it's very one-sided. And if I try to dial down my energy to match theirs, what ends up happening is they further dial down their energy to match mine. Since they don't initiate on their own, our interactions just fizzle out entirely, which feels quite sad.
I'm starting to think this is something of a cultural divide, similar to ask/guess or extrovert/introvert. I'd like to understand a bit more about the other side's style.
Non-initiators, do you ever actually experience interest/desire? If so, how do you express it?
If you're on the receiving side, how do you know your non-initiator friend or partner actually wants you in their life?
And people for whom a balance of initiation feels important, what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
I just can't with these people. I feel like it's incredibly rude to always wait for me to initiate. I'm an introvert, too! I'm super-busy, too! I, too, have social anxieties! Yet somehow it's always up to me to initiate?
However, yes, there is a cultural divide and I accept that as an initiator I'm a minority. My way to gauge interest in people who don't initiate is to see how promptly and concretely/practically, they respond.
So if I text "hey friend, want to have dinner next week?"
Then I'm happy with an answer within a day that says "sure, I'm free Thursday and Friday, how about you?"
Or even, "I'd love to but not sure what days I'll be off, can I text you Tuesday?"
To me, that signals that they're shouldering some of the planning and are invested in making this work.
Answer I'm not happy with: "Yeah, sounds cool" 2 days later.
I've really stopped hanging out much with people that don't give me some of that planning energy back.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2020 [18 favorites]
However, yes, there is a cultural divide and I accept that as an initiator I'm a minority. My way to gauge interest in people who don't initiate is to see how promptly and concretely/practically, they respond.
So if I text "hey friend, want to have dinner next week?"
Then I'm happy with an answer within a day that says "sure, I'm free Thursday and Friday, how about you?"
Or even, "I'd love to but not sure what days I'll be off, can I text you Tuesday?"
To me, that signals that they're shouldering some of the planning and are invested in making this work.
Answer I'm not happy with: "Yeah, sounds cool" 2 days later.
I've really stopped hanging out much with people that don't give me some of that planning energy back.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2020 [18 favorites]
I'm a recovering non-initiator. I was bullied as a kid, and people would tease each other by saying, you know, "Leah wants to date you," "Leah wants to be your friend." There were people who were happy to see me in some situations, but would be absolutely cruel if I even waved to them in front of their real friends. It taught me that I needed to follow other peoples cues, because going out on a limb and expressing interest risked putting the other person in a bad position or getting abused myself.
As a non-initiating adult, I would absolutely experience interest. I did it by lingering longer in a conversation, by jumping faster on a hint of an invitation, by posting things on social media that I know a particular friend will get a kick out of and respond to, by keeping things in mind that I want to mention to that person when I do see them. I was still waiting for the other person to initiate well more than half the time, but I was (I hoped) making it clear when they did that I valued the chance to spend time with them, and that I wanted to be a thoughtful and caring friend.
I was also bad at invitations. I'd never learned how to extend them gracefully, take "yes" or "no" well, judge "maybe"s, etc. So it all felt scary and awful, like extending invitations myself was asking for trouble, and like things just went more smoothly when I left the inviting to someone else.
And okay, it's not true that I would never initiate. But I'll admit that when I did have a friend who reliably initiated, it felt like a huge luxury — like I could just do the safe thing instead of "putting myself in danger," which is how it felt to me when I had to extend an invitation myself.
Like I said, I'm recovering. But it's hard and scary. I'm really grateful to my constant-initiator friends who kept reaching out in ways that felt safe when I wasn't ready to yet.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:47 AM on October 31, 2020 [30 favorites]
As a non-initiating adult, I would absolutely experience interest. I did it by lingering longer in a conversation, by jumping faster on a hint of an invitation, by posting things on social media that I know a particular friend will get a kick out of and respond to, by keeping things in mind that I want to mention to that person when I do see them. I was still waiting for the other person to initiate well more than half the time, but I was (I hoped) making it clear when they did that I valued the chance to spend time with them, and that I wanted to be a thoughtful and caring friend.
I was also bad at invitations. I'd never learned how to extend them gracefully, take "yes" or "no" well, judge "maybe"s, etc. So it all felt scary and awful, like extending invitations myself was asking for trouble, and like things just went more smoothly when I left the inviting to someone else.
And okay, it's not true that I would never initiate. But I'll admit that when I did have a friend who reliably initiated, it felt like a huge luxury — like I could just do the safe thing instead of "putting myself in danger," which is how it felt to me when I had to extend an invitation myself.
Like I said, I'm recovering. But it's hard and scary. I'm really grateful to my constant-initiator friends who kept reaching out in ways that felt safe when I wasn't ready to yet.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:47 AM on October 31, 2020 [30 favorites]
I'm an initiator, and it used to bother me when felt like I was the one putting in all the effort or jollying along friendships. Over time, I've ended up investing more in friendships that felt more reciprocal and investing less in the others, and for me, that feels more comfortable and balanced. I still reach out on occasion to the non-initiators, but they aren't my closest friendships anymore. I'm sure there are initiators who don't care if it's reciprocal (and hooray for those people!) but I'm not one of them, so I'm just rolling with that.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by bighappyhairydog at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
Hmm. As a non-initiator, if I had to analyze my own behavior, it would probably be that I'm so busy thinking and doing things (not important things, just... things) that I sort of assume everyone else is too. So the thought that they might be wishing to connect with me rather than, say, cleaning the shower, or reading, or whatever, feels like I'm making their life about me. Everyone has more important things to do than invite me to stuff, and so I'll just keep clam until there's clear occasion to get together. I don't think all this consciously, of course, I'm just summarizing the feeling that I have.
But I cherish the people in my life and so when they do reach out I try to meet them more than halfway. One friend of mine is a big initiator and although I try to take some of that off of their shoulders ultimately I'm just not as good at it and it doesn't occur to me as naturally so I end up falling behind again. The balance ends up being that they do the initiation but I try to be very supportive so they know I'm part of it and not just around.
I think that if there are people who are merely "tolerating" your desire to hang out, that will be clear from the way they interact with you. But I don't think there's any secret code to it, or at least there isn't when I fail to initiate. People who do the "yeah sure" instead of engaging... take it at face value, IMO.
One thing that prickles me as a non-initiator though, and I realize this is not a fault in the other person, but it's when people include an "out" in an invitation as if they want to make it less of a big deal - you know, like "Hey was thinking we could do dinner next week. But if you don't want to, that's also cool." In my mind this kind of presupposing that I don't want to feels weird, I can't quite say how, but it does. It seems obvious to me that it's OK if I don't want to because we're friends that understand life is complicated. But it also sort of loads in this "maybe you don't like me" thing that feels like it's asking for reassurance that we're friends outside of coming to dinner or whatever.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [9 favorites]
But I cherish the people in my life and so when they do reach out I try to meet them more than halfway. One friend of mine is a big initiator and although I try to take some of that off of their shoulders ultimately I'm just not as good at it and it doesn't occur to me as naturally so I end up falling behind again. The balance ends up being that they do the initiation but I try to be very supportive so they know I'm part of it and not just around.
I think that if there are people who are merely "tolerating" your desire to hang out, that will be clear from the way they interact with you. But I don't think there's any secret code to it, or at least there isn't when I fail to initiate. People who do the "yeah sure" instead of engaging... take it at face value, IMO.
One thing that prickles me as a non-initiator though, and I realize this is not a fault in the other person, but it's when people include an "out" in an invitation as if they want to make it less of a big deal - you know, like "Hey was thinking we could do dinner next week. But if you don't want to, that's also cool." In my mind this kind of presupposing that I don't want to feels weird, I can't quite say how, but it does. It seems obvious to me that it's OK if I don't want to because we're friends that understand life is complicated. But it also sort of loads in this "maybe you don't like me" thing that feels like it's asking for reassurance that we're friends outside of coming to dinner or whatever.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [9 favorites]
Introvert is not a synonym for bad at making friends or anxious or shy. It frustrates me when people use the word ‘introvert’ as an excuse for being bad at friendships. I am an introvert which means I need longer periods of me time, but I still need friends! I still need to see people! I will still initiate friendships!
It may be that those people are bad at maintaining friendships and if that makes you feel frustrated, then stop initiating. Friendships don’t have to be 50-50, they can be 40-60 or maybe even 30-70, but if they get more unequal than that, then it’s no longer a friendship, it’s a fan relationship.
I have also been the non reciprocater, and this is when I have been happy about hanging out with the other person, but the other person is not super special enough for me to actually reciprocate their efforts, you know what I mean?
posted by moiraine at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
It may be that those people are bad at maintaining friendships and if that makes you feel frustrated, then stop initiating. Friendships don’t have to be 50-50, they can be 40-60 or maybe even 30-70, but if they get more unequal than that, then it’s no longer a friendship, it’s a fan relationship.
I have also been the non reciprocater, and this is when I have been happy about hanging out with the other person, but the other person is not super special enough for me to actually reciprocate their efforts, you know what I mean?
posted by moiraine at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
This is something I've struggled with as someone who sees themselves as tending to initiate more (though I have a few relationships where the other person tends to initiate more). I think my issue before is that I saw interest/desire as a binary. Either someone is interested, or they are not. This type of question gets asked a lot, and you often see non-initiators claim that they do really like their friends who initiate, which would frustrate me because I would be like, well why is it so much harder to be friends with you, versus my friends who do initiate?
Of course, interest is really a spectrum, and non-initiators, for a variety of reasons, are just in the middle of that spectrum. Their desire to hang out with is strong enough that they'll do it if you do the work of planning and reaching out, but not strong enough to actually reach out to you first. I think sometimes people are afraid to admit this because it can sound mean. But I have friends who are say, busy with work, need lots of alone time, etc., and their circumstances or personality just make it so that my interest in hanging out is stronger than theirs.
For me, I know my friends who are non-initiators want me in their life because they do talk and hang out with me when I reach out. If they didn't, they would just not talk or hang out with me. But at the same time, I know that they wouldn't be upset if I wasn't in their life as much as I am, because if they were, they would also reach out. Of course, sometimes there's an issue that my friends might wait longer to reach out than I would, which in the end means I'm always the one reaching out even though both of us like each other. But it still means my interest is stronger, IMO.
But in the end, my strongest relationships are with people who I want to regularly spend time with, and who regularly want to spend time with me. This usually means both of us initiate a similar amount.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 12:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
Of course, interest is really a spectrum, and non-initiators, for a variety of reasons, are just in the middle of that spectrum. Their desire to hang out with is strong enough that they'll do it if you do the work of planning and reaching out, but not strong enough to actually reach out to you first. I think sometimes people are afraid to admit this because it can sound mean. But I have friends who are say, busy with work, need lots of alone time, etc., and their circumstances or personality just make it so that my interest in hanging out is stronger than theirs.
For me, I know my friends who are non-initiators want me in their life because they do talk and hang out with me when I reach out. If they didn't, they would just not talk or hang out with me. But at the same time, I know that they wouldn't be upset if I wasn't in their life as much as I am, because if they were, they would also reach out. Of course, sometimes there's an issue that my friends might wait longer to reach out than I would, which in the end means I'm always the one reaching out even though both of us like each other. But it still means my interest is stronger, IMO.
But in the end, my strongest relationships are with people who I want to regularly spend time with, and who regularly want to spend time with me. This usually means both of us initiate a similar amount.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 12:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
I used to try harder, when I was younger; now I've given up on these types. Once I realize you're making me do all the work in the relationship, I'm dropping out, we're no longer friends, merely acquaintances. As moiraine said, it's just a "fan relationship" (although IMO 'chump' is the better word to label it with.)
posted by Rash at 12:41 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
I used to try harder, when I was younger; now I've given up on these types. Once I realize you're making me do all the work in the relationship, I'm dropping out, we're no longer friends, merely acquaintances. As moiraine said, it's just a "fan relationship" (although IMO 'chump' is the better word to label it with.)
posted by Rash at 12:41 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am also a recovering non-initiator. I was just quite the introvert and could go ages without seeing friends. It was worse once I was in a relationship. Over the years very dear friends dropped me and eventually I grew up a bit and for the most part they were there when I reemerged. I carry my weight now and even though I always enjoy time with my friends it still takes an emotional push for me to plan it no matter who initiates.
posted by InkaLomax at 1:21 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by InkaLomax at 1:21 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
people who are passive through ingrained ideas of politeness or correctness, or lazy through temperament, but who really like you, will make a point of telling you in words what a wonderful time they had so that you don't have to interpret or guess. when you say "We should do this again sometime!" they say YES I would LOVE TO. maybe they don't call you, but they make sure you know they want you to call them. (and if they were brought up not to be forward, they probably drop little suggestions about how much they'd love to see such-and-such a movie or do whatever activity, and then when you make a formal suggestion that the two of you go and do that, they act just as delighted as if you'd thought of it yourself. just in case you are dating any old-fashioned women, be alert to this, because that is initiating and it's a lot more work than just asking someone out. even though nobody likes it.)
but in general, as passive people well know, when you tend to accept rather than issue invitations, you also generally tend to be polite and evasive about having had a good time, even if you didn't. and so when you really did have a great time and really do like someone, you overcompensate a little with the gratitude and compliments to make sure the other person knows you're not just being passively polite. someone who's genuinely interested but who doesn't do this is not very considerate, even if they do enjoy your company.
so, interest/desire is expressed thus: "This was such a great idea, I had a really good time, thank you for asking me to do this, I would love to do it again sometime soon." if the other person is on the same page as you but is just a "non-initiator," you should be hearing sincere-sounding variations of that pretty regularly. if you aren't hearing it, you are right to have doubts about their interest.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
but in general, as passive people well know, when you tend to accept rather than issue invitations, you also generally tend to be polite and evasive about having had a good time, even if you didn't. and so when you really did have a great time and really do like someone, you overcompensate a little with the gratitude and compliments to make sure the other person knows you're not just being passively polite. someone who's genuinely interested but who doesn't do this is not very considerate, even if they do enjoy your company.
so, interest/desire is expressed thus: "This was such a great idea, I had a really good time, thank you for asking me to do this, I would love to do it again sometime soon." if the other person is on the same page as you but is just a "non-initiator," you should be hearing sincere-sounding variations of that pretty regularly. if you aren't hearing it, you are right to have doubts about their interest.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
If the non-initiator talks about things they'd like to do, places to go, or abstract wishes to hang out more often, that can be away of testing out whether it might be worth the risk of explicitly inviting you. I grew up in a family where that kind of hinting was the norm. Hell, I not-proposed in such vague hints that he said later that it seemed totally natural to start planning the wedding without either of us asking the other. He didn't think anything was odd until someone asked him how he proposed to me.
I also learned the hard way as a child and teen that outside of my own family, it was never safe for me to initiate social contact. I was punished many times for trying to reach out, usually just through humiliation but occasionally through physical retaliation.
I've never considered whether a friend is 'worth the effort' of invitation. My way of thinking about it is more, is the thing I want to do with this person so amazing and perfect and wonderful they will enjoy it even though it means putting up with having me along? (and a little bit of how bad could the reaction be if they are offended by the invitation)
Of course if you experience lack of invitations as a form of rejection or a way of putting the burden of friendship all on you, then it may be that your communication styles are incompatible. Who is more 'into' the friendship is not possible to measure empirically, but when one person's natural mode of communication is confusing or painful to the other, friendship is not an easy thing.
posted by buildmyworld at 2:10 PM on October 31, 2020 [10 favorites]
I also learned the hard way as a child and teen that outside of my own family, it was never safe for me to initiate social contact. I was punished many times for trying to reach out, usually just through humiliation but occasionally through physical retaliation.
I've never considered whether a friend is 'worth the effort' of invitation. My way of thinking about it is more, is the thing I want to do with this person so amazing and perfect and wonderful they will enjoy it even though it means putting up with having me along? (and a little bit of how bad could the reaction be if they are offended by the invitation)
Of course if you experience lack of invitations as a form of rejection or a way of putting the burden of friendship all on you, then it may be that your communication styles are incompatible. Who is more 'into' the friendship is not possible to measure empirically, but when one person's natural mode of communication is confusing or painful to the other, friendship is not an easy thing.
posted by buildmyworld at 2:10 PM on October 31, 2020 [10 favorites]
This is a wonderful thread thank you
posted by Melismata at 2:17 PM on October 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:17 PM on October 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've never considered whether a friend is 'worth the effort' of invitation. My way of thinking about it is more, is the thing I want to do with this person so amazing and perfect and wonderful they will enjoy it even though it means putting up with having me along? (and a little bit of how bad could the reaction be if they are offended by the invitation)
Yup, this absolutely describes my base mindset.
I recognize the "if they're not reciprocating they are Users!" position in this thread and I think there's a lot of truth to it but it doesn't change my mode of operating, and I have been openly trying for at least 15 years.
I've changed a fair lot about myself in my time on earth and this is a nut I find so hard to crack.
I actually just deleted an email yesterday to a parent who has been amazing at initiating with our kids, and I know I'm in her debt, and I appreciate her effort so much, and I thought "it really is time for me to think up something for our kids to do together" and...I have like 6 ideas but they all suck. They all suck. I'm working on finding a 7th, and I know in some part of me that if I said I just wanted to rake up a leaf pile and let the kids play in it, 6 feet apart, I would probably be ok. Which is what I said.
But what if, what if, what if.
I know that person is going to decide it's not worth the effort, and I know that it's bad. Like, send the damn email, warriorqueen. I know she has no magical mirror that lets her pick good activities!
And I've tried to explain it. But I know it's just a huge divide. My long-term friends - and I have some from grade 7 that I see often - do accept this about me. I don't know why, but they do. People who don't, it's hard to be friends. I know it's hard for them and it's hard for me, it sucks, and it sucks that they are impacted by this thing.
What I can do, after practice, is create a group ritual thing. So at one point I was organizing 4 baby groups and I still have a wine night group (although we have such Zoom fatigue it's not going that well lately) and I have a monthly writers group. I carrying organizing with those groups. I feel like that's a rung on this ladder but I just haven't made it to the next rung which is the individual invitation. And Covid man, has blown my capacity.
I think the other thing is...
My experience of the world is kind of intensely private? Like, when I've had a bad day, I never actually think of calling someone about it. Or a good day. Except my spouse and my one girlfriend, but even with my girlfriend, I know if we fell off our habit of doing that I would start to feel weird about it, like as long as I tell her something in Discord /every day/ I'm fine but on day 4 of a gap I'm really /not okay./
I grew up where it was 100% Not Safe to share anything with my family. It all got weaponized.
And when I read about an art exhibit or a classical music concert or something I seem to lack the ability to match that up with a friend, for the most part. If I'm going to love it and I'm going to be vulnerable, it's really hard for me to share it. My very very closest people, yes. But like, a friend I met at my kids' daycare that I love having coffee with...how do I know that she likes Rachmaninoff and that I won't find out that she is making fun of the way I sometimes rock a tiny bit during concerts?
And then I get into this exact spiral above. So I stick to coffee. And if the coffee ritual ends, I'm not sure how to start the next ritual. In groups, I am safe, I am facilitating I guess. I'm suuuuper comfortable helping out - if someone needs help, I know what to do. But just - sharing? AUGH.
I'm explaining that this is where my fault lines are, not defending them. I was abused, belittled and bullied. I was told great things would happen! And then awful things happened. I am sure it all relates but I also know I missed the social development window for this and it's a weird little one to try to catch up on.
I'm actually not an introvert either, so - that's fun.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2020 [26 favorites]
Yup, this absolutely describes my base mindset.
I recognize the "if they're not reciprocating they are Users!" position in this thread and I think there's a lot of truth to it but it doesn't change my mode of operating, and I have been openly trying for at least 15 years.
I've changed a fair lot about myself in my time on earth and this is a nut I find so hard to crack.
I actually just deleted an email yesterday to a parent who has been amazing at initiating with our kids, and I know I'm in her debt, and I appreciate her effort so much, and I thought "it really is time for me to think up something for our kids to do together" and...I have like 6 ideas but they all suck. They all suck. I'm working on finding a 7th, and I know in some part of me that if I said I just wanted to rake up a leaf pile and let the kids play in it, 6 feet apart, I would probably be ok. Which is what I said.
But what if, what if, what if.
I know that person is going to decide it's not worth the effort, and I know that it's bad. Like, send the damn email, warriorqueen. I know she has no magical mirror that lets her pick good activities!
And I've tried to explain it. But I know it's just a huge divide. My long-term friends - and I have some from grade 7 that I see often - do accept this about me. I don't know why, but they do. People who don't, it's hard to be friends. I know it's hard for them and it's hard for me, it sucks, and it sucks that they are impacted by this thing.
What I can do, after practice, is create a group ritual thing. So at one point I was organizing 4 baby groups and I still have a wine night group (although we have such Zoom fatigue it's not going that well lately) and I have a monthly writers group. I carrying organizing with those groups. I feel like that's a rung on this ladder but I just haven't made it to the next rung which is the individual invitation. And Covid man, has blown my capacity.
I think the other thing is...
My experience of the world is kind of intensely private? Like, when I've had a bad day, I never actually think of calling someone about it. Or a good day. Except my spouse and my one girlfriend, but even with my girlfriend, I know if we fell off our habit of doing that I would start to feel weird about it, like as long as I tell her something in Discord /every day/ I'm fine but on day 4 of a gap I'm really /not okay./
I grew up where it was 100% Not Safe to share anything with my family. It all got weaponized.
And when I read about an art exhibit or a classical music concert or something I seem to lack the ability to match that up with a friend, for the most part. If I'm going to love it and I'm going to be vulnerable, it's really hard for me to share it. My very very closest people, yes. But like, a friend I met at my kids' daycare that I love having coffee with...how do I know that she likes Rachmaninoff and that I won't find out that she is making fun of the way I sometimes rock a tiny bit during concerts?
And then I get into this exact spiral above. So I stick to coffee. And if the coffee ritual ends, I'm not sure how to start the next ritual. In groups, I am safe, I am facilitating I guess. I'm suuuuper comfortable helping out - if someone needs help, I know what to do. But just - sharing? AUGH.
I'm explaining that this is where my fault lines are, not defending them. I was abused, belittled and bullied. I was told great things would happen! And then awful things happened. I am sure it all relates but I also know I missed the social development window for this and it's a weird little one to try to catch up on.
I'm actually not an introvert either, so - that's fun.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2020 [26 favorites]
Thank you for this thread, it’s really opened my eyes and made me aware of my behaviour (much the same as the Ask/Guess thread did).
I used to be a very active initiator of social plans, conversations, and interpersonal connections, and always thought of myself as an extrovert. Then I stopped drinking. I’m now 3 years sober and it took at least 1.5 years for socialising not to feel exhausting and even slightly traumatic and upsetting at times. This is not a universal experience by any means, but for me I realised my drinking had been concealing social anxiety and major insecurities for decades. I would phone my friends and talk for hours (I’d often been drinking, they had not) and was the first to jump at any social invitation, due to the fun and escapism that drinking in a crowd represented to me.
Ironically, now that I want and need true friendship in my life more than ever, I have almost instinctually put up a whole set of hang-ups, barriers and self-limiting beliefs about initiating plans. I feel like i have limited time and interpersonal capacity, outside of work, and there are always self-improvement or personal maintenance tasks to be done (even if it’s just, I want to spend several hours reading, a night watching TV and then after chores and a few dog walks, after which there doesn’t seem to be much time left in a weekend). Alongside this I’ve developed almost a bit of a phobia about answering the phone, in case it’s someone asking me to do something, and I don’t know how to say no; or someone asking the dreaded question, “So what have you been up to lately...?” For which my answers always feel unbearably dull. It’s uncomfortable for me to reflect on how small my social world has become compared to when I was younger. It’s like I’ve been social distancing before COVID-19 even happened.
I’m aware I need to work on initiating more, if I want to build the kind of friendships and community that don’t rely on drinking, but I haven’t quite had the personal fortitude to tackle it just yet. It feels just another item on the “Self Improvement To Do” checklist. So I’ll be watching this thread with interest, and am grateful to hear from those on the receiving end of my sort of social avoidance, which is more from anxiety and possibly a touch of laziness, than anything to do with the initiator themselves. I just hope they have enough patience to keep asking.
Oh! I should mention that the one kind of invitation I will happily extend, and do so every couple months at least, is a one-on-one breakfast/brunch invitation at my favourite cafe. This is pretty much the perfect social invitation for me - short, focused, low-key, opportunity for personal conversation and really talking deeply with someone - and with very little time beforehand to think about cancelling!
posted by Weng at 3:21 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
I used to be a very active initiator of social plans, conversations, and interpersonal connections, and always thought of myself as an extrovert. Then I stopped drinking. I’m now 3 years sober and it took at least 1.5 years for socialising not to feel exhausting and even slightly traumatic and upsetting at times. This is not a universal experience by any means, but for me I realised my drinking had been concealing social anxiety and major insecurities for decades. I would phone my friends and talk for hours (I’d often been drinking, they had not) and was the first to jump at any social invitation, due to the fun and escapism that drinking in a crowd represented to me.
Ironically, now that I want and need true friendship in my life more than ever, I have almost instinctually put up a whole set of hang-ups, barriers and self-limiting beliefs about initiating plans. I feel like i have limited time and interpersonal capacity, outside of work, and there are always self-improvement or personal maintenance tasks to be done (even if it’s just, I want to spend several hours reading, a night watching TV and then after chores and a few dog walks, after which there doesn’t seem to be much time left in a weekend). Alongside this I’ve developed almost a bit of a phobia about answering the phone, in case it’s someone asking me to do something, and I don’t know how to say no; or someone asking the dreaded question, “So what have you been up to lately...?” For which my answers always feel unbearably dull. It’s uncomfortable for me to reflect on how small my social world has become compared to when I was younger. It’s like I’ve been social distancing before COVID-19 even happened.
I’m aware I need to work on initiating more, if I want to build the kind of friendships and community that don’t rely on drinking, but I haven’t quite had the personal fortitude to tackle it just yet. It feels just another item on the “Self Improvement To Do” checklist. So I’ll be watching this thread with interest, and am grateful to hear from those on the receiving end of my sort of social avoidance, which is more from anxiety and possibly a touch of laziness, than anything to do with the initiator themselves. I just hope they have enough patience to keep asking.
Oh! I should mention that the one kind of invitation I will happily extend, and do so every couple months at least, is a one-on-one breakfast/brunch invitation at my favourite cafe. This is pretty much the perfect social invitation for me - short, focused, low-key, opportunity for personal conversation and really talking deeply with someone - and with very little time beforehand to think about cancelling!
posted by Weng at 3:21 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
I have a newer friend who’s a non-initiator, but she’s been open with me about some of the issues that lead to her not initiating. I do reach out a bit less than I do with other friends, but she shows me that she cares about me and values my friendship. I also realize that I’m coping with the pandemic by reaching out more, while she’s coping by withdrawing. I’m interested to see how/if things change when normal life resumes.
posted by bunderful at 6:59 PM on October 31, 2020
posted by bunderful at 6:59 PM on October 31, 2020
I am an off-the-charts introvert, and I initiate for some sets of people and activities, and I do not for others.
I initiate when it feels safe; there is little risk of disappointment, or rejection, or planning something that is a flop and then getting to wallow in my own awkwardness forever. For me this is asking a close friend or two to get together, or planning a potluck or an activity at work (like crafting), or starting up ye olde groupe texte to arrange a happy hour/brunch/picnic with friends who have shown that they will persevere and find a time that works for most of us. These feel safe because I do not have to try to be sparkly, and it's over before I wear out, and the group activities are fun and people are obviously having a good time (even if there are only a few of us).
I do not initiate anything else, but I rarely turn down happy hour with coworkers and I enjoy attending parties and hobby-centric meetups. I try to be a good guest and bring offerings, help out if I can, and express thanks. (I may fail; I can be oblivious.) I feel nervous just thinking about hosting more than a few people at my house and appreciate people who do it. I do feel disappointed when an annual-type party is skipped for a year or the instigator moves away; I guess that is desire?
I definitely have some friends who initiate rarely, but are still important to me, so I continue to reach out. We always have a good time when we get together.
posted by esoterrica at 8:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
I initiate when it feels safe; there is little risk of disappointment, or rejection, or planning something that is a flop and then getting to wallow in my own awkwardness forever. For me this is asking a close friend or two to get together, or planning a potluck or an activity at work (like crafting), or starting up ye olde groupe texte to arrange a happy hour/brunch/picnic with friends who have shown that they will persevere and find a time that works for most of us. These feel safe because I do not have to try to be sparkly, and it's over before I wear out, and the group activities are fun and people are obviously having a good time (even if there are only a few of us).
I do not initiate anything else, but I rarely turn down happy hour with coworkers and I enjoy attending parties and hobby-centric meetups. I try to be a good guest and bring offerings, help out if I can, and express thanks. (I may fail; I can be oblivious.) I feel nervous just thinking about hosting more than a few people at my house and appreciate people who do it. I do feel disappointed when an annual-type party is skipped for a year or the instigator moves away; I guess that is desire?
I definitely have some friends who initiate rarely, but are still important to me, so I continue to reach out. We always have a good time when we get together.
posted by esoterrica at 8:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
I was an initiator for a long time, early on. Once I realized that I was almost always the one initiating with almost everyone, and often getting few responses, I learned to stop trying. I lost a lot of "friends" this way. I learned to just never, ever reach out to people, because if I've reached out, and they haven't reached out to or responded to me, they're clearly not interested, and I feel that I am clearly a burden to their life. That's OK, I can live with that.
How do I respond when someone does reach out? I respond. Every time, and usually pretty quickly, and I'm honest about if / when / how I can participate in whatever the thing is. You text me? I text back. I'll respond to you on facebook. I'll answer your emails, or return your phone calls, whatever channel works.
Non-initiating is sometimes a learned response. I'll initiate, but at this point, I'll only do it once I can trust that you're not just fucking around as a vague half friend, expecting me to to do all the work of initiating, while you curate and turn down / up whatever the event it. I don't initiate because I am So. Fucking. Done. with people who flake, or don't respond.
posted by mrgoat at 8:20 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
How do I respond when someone does reach out? I respond. Every time, and usually pretty quickly, and I'm honest about if / when / how I can participate in whatever the thing is. You text me? I text back. I'll respond to you on facebook. I'll answer your emails, or return your phone calls, whatever channel works.
Non-initiating is sometimes a learned response. I'll initiate, but at this point, I'll only do it once I can trust that you're not just fucking around as a vague half friend, expecting me to to do all the work of initiating, while you curate and turn down / up whatever the event it. I don't initiate because I am So. Fucking. Done. with people who flake, or don't respond.
posted by mrgoat at 8:20 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm an initiator. I think this is an Ask Culture vs. Guess Culture thing, honestly. I didn't used to read any deeper meaning into rejections (or indeed into acceptance); I just used to take people's acceptance or rejection at face value. Since I don't take "no" as a personal rejection (Ask Culture), I used to make the mistake of expecting others to feel free to say "no" to my invites, without worrying about my feelings (Guess Culture).
However, I've come to realize that if I'm initiating all the time, then the other person doesn't really want to hang out with me and I am quite likely imposing myself on someone who is too polite to say no to an invitation. My sister has literally stopped speaking to me over exactly this: for years I was the only one to initiate meetings and invite her to events, and then last year she blew up at me, accused me of "bullying" her with my constant invites. She said I should have taken the hint that my invitations were too much and too overbearing from the fact that she never once in five or six years initiated contact. She had a point, honestly. Since my sister and I have been estranged, I've started being more aware of which relationships I am the sole initiator in, and stopped. Almost none of this set of people have got in touch with me on their own over the last six months, and I'm glad to have learned the lesson.
I'm still an initiator, but I only initiate with people who reciprocate by also initiating somewhat evenly. "Non-initiators" are folks who are just not that into you!
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
However, I've come to realize that if I'm initiating all the time, then the other person doesn't really want to hang out with me and I am quite likely imposing myself on someone who is too polite to say no to an invitation. My sister has literally stopped speaking to me over exactly this: for years I was the only one to initiate meetings and invite her to events, and then last year she blew up at me, accused me of "bullying" her with my constant invites. She said I should have taken the hint that my invitations were too much and too overbearing from the fact that she never once in five or six years initiated contact. She had a point, honestly. Since my sister and I have been estranged, I've started being more aware of which relationships I am the sole initiator in, and stopped. Almost none of this set of people have got in touch with me on their own over the last six months, and I'm glad to have learned the lesson.
I'm still an initiator, but I only initiate with people who reciprocate by also initiating somewhat evenly. "Non-initiators" are folks who are just not that into you!
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on November 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
For several friends I don't initiate because I noticed that every time I did they either weren't free or canceled last minute. You might think, oh those folks weren't into me, but they were good initiators themselves, just very bad at being available at times of other people's choosing.
Some people just have such complicated lives (jobs, families, health) that it seems best if I wait for them to tell me when is a good time for us to get together. I'm just not gonna bother with my side of initiating if they can never take me up on it.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2020
Some people just have such complicated lives (jobs, families, health) that it seems best if I wait for them to tell me when is a good time for us to get together. I'm just not gonna bother with my side of initiating if they can never take me up on it.
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2020
This is such an interesting discussion. Thank you for posting the question.
And people for whom a balance of initiation feels important, what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
Oooof. I felt this. In general I am an initiator and fairly confident and relaxed about reaching out to people - like if they say no, that's fine, they're too busy. It's not because they secretly hate me or whatever. It took a lot of effort and conscious un-learning to get to this point. But I am happy to be here and most of my friends are pretty good about initiating back so we're in a 50/50. I agree with points made above about people who are not initiators - when they show great gratitude and appreciation for the invitation, then I do not feel like I have put myself out there and received nothing back. I also agree about not initiating plans with people who are very busy/have other ongoing commitments like young children etc - I usually leave it to them to reach out and when they do, I participate with enthusiasm.
However. When it's a person I care about, and they don't say no/don't respond to an initiation, and this starts to feel like a pattern - it is very hard for me not to think that there's a message there that I would be well-advised to take note of. That they're not into it/me and that my reaching out has not been received well and they're secretly thinking 'Bloody unicorn chaser, why can't they take a hint?'. And it's hard sometimes to tell whether that is my childhood insecurity about no one liking me rearing its head, or whether it is an accurate reflection of the situation. Happily this doesn't happen too often, but it hits hard when it does happen. I don't like everyone and not everyone has to like me, but it is sad when you like a person and want to be friends with them and for whatever reason, they don't feel the same way or to the same extent.
I don't like that kind of transactional view of friendship where you don't reach out and you wait for the other person to reach out because 'it's their turn'... But sometimes, when it is feeling particularly one-sided, I do end up doing this and going silent. And then things inevitably peter out, which makes me realise the friendship was only existent because I was holding it up. Which is a sad realisation to come to but valuable I suppose.
posted by unicorn chaser at 3:21 AM on November 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
And people for whom a balance of initiation feels important, what do you do when a person you care about never reaches out?
Oooof. I felt this. In general I am an initiator and fairly confident and relaxed about reaching out to people - like if they say no, that's fine, they're too busy. It's not because they secretly hate me or whatever. It took a lot of effort and conscious un-learning to get to this point. But I am happy to be here and most of my friends are pretty good about initiating back so we're in a 50/50. I agree with points made above about people who are not initiators - when they show great gratitude and appreciation for the invitation, then I do not feel like I have put myself out there and received nothing back. I also agree about not initiating plans with people who are very busy/have other ongoing commitments like young children etc - I usually leave it to them to reach out and when they do, I participate with enthusiasm.
However. When it's a person I care about, and they don't say no/don't respond to an initiation, and this starts to feel like a pattern - it is very hard for me not to think that there's a message there that I would be well-advised to take note of. That they're not into it/me and that my reaching out has not been received well and they're secretly thinking 'Bloody unicorn chaser, why can't they take a hint?'. And it's hard sometimes to tell whether that is my childhood insecurity about no one liking me rearing its head, or whether it is an accurate reflection of the situation. Happily this doesn't happen too often, but it hits hard when it does happen. I don't like everyone and not everyone has to like me, but it is sad when you like a person and want to be friends with them and for whatever reason, they don't feel the same way or to the same extent.
I don't like that kind of transactional view of friendship where you don't reach out and you wait for the other person to reach out because 'it's their turn'... But sometimes, when it is feeling particularly one-sided, I do end up doing this and going silent. And then things inevitably peter out, which makes me realise the friendship was only existent because I was holding it up. Which is a sad realisation to come to but valuable I suppose.
posted by unicorn chaser at 3:21 AM on November 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Really loving this thread. Nebulawindphone, your response gave me so much insight into one of the reasons why i struggle to initiate. I had a bully friend (a couple, actually) in childhood/adolescence who dangled their friendship like a carrot. I learned pretty fast to just let them to initiate, otherwise I'd risk them laughing in my face.
The same is true in my romantic relationships (I'm a cis hetero woman). That stupid "He's Just Not That Into You" book (which I've never even read!!!) has implanted itself into my brain, and I'm still trying to untangle my pathological avoidance of ever making a single overture with a man lest I be deemed a desperate hag. Sometimes I think that mindset also spills over into friendships, sadly.
Luckily, I seem to have found a rhythm with some of my friends that goes something like, Them: "I miss you!" Me: "I miss you, too! Are you free this weekend?"
So maybe something like that? A genuine gesture of appreciation of their company, and then see if they take initiative then?
posted by gold bridges at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2020
The same is true in my romantic relationships (I'm a cis hetero woman). That stupid "He's Just Not That Into You" book (which I've never even read!!!) has implanted itself into my brain, and I'm still trying to untangle my pathological avoidance of ever making a single overture with a man lest I be deemed a desperate hag. Sometimes I think that mindset also spills over into friendships, sadly.
Luckily, I seem to have found a rhythm with some of my friends that goes something like, Them: "I miss you!" Me: "I miss you, too! Are you free this weekend?"
So maybe something like that? A genuine gesture of appreciation of their company, and then see if they take initiative then?
posted by gold bridges at 1:53 PM on November 3, 2020
This thread is making me realize how much I'm guilty of being a non-initiator. For me it's usually about poor self-image. It's hard to internalize the idea that someone would actively want to hang out with me, so initiating a social engagement feels rude and presumptuous. If I extend an invitation, that puts the recipient in the awkward position of having to either a) find a socially acceptable excuse to turn it down or b) spend time with me that they could be spending with more interesting friends.
And of course, the cooler I think the person is, the harder it is to believe that I'm worth their time--so the more I like you the less I'll initiate. I hope those of you in this thread who have been hurt by non-initiators in the past consider the possibility that they were like me and just got too intimidated by your awesomeness. (If anyone has any tips about how to get over this hangup I would love to hear them.)
posted by fermion at 4:01 PM on November 6, 2020
And of course, the cooler I think the person is, the harder it is to believe that I'm worth their time--so the more I like you the less I'll initiate. I hope those of you in this thread who have been hurt by non-initiators in the past consider the possibility that they were like me and just got too intimidated by your awesomeness. (If anyone has any tips about how to get over this hangup I would love to hear them.)
posted by fermion at 4:01 PM on November 6, 2020
"It's your fault, Eeyore. You've never been to see any of us. You just stay here in this one corner of the Forest waiting for the others to come to you. Why don't you go to them, sometimes?"
Eeyore was silent for a little while, thinking.
"There may be something in what you say, Rabbit," he said at last. "I must move about more. I must come and go."
posted by Rash at 10:45 AM on November 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
Eeyore was silent for a little while, thinking.
"There may be something in what you say, Rabbit," he said at last. "I must move about more. I must come and go."
posted by Rash at 10:45 AM on November 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
This conversation is fascinating. One thing I haven't seen brought up: I have several friends who define themselves as initiators -- either by always wanting to be the person who comes up with a cool thing to do, or who have claims on various sorts of activities (ie, Jo is the "kayaking" person). It would be feel weird, almost an open declaration of competition, to initiate outings in these groups because someone has so clearly staked out the role of Idea Person. Similarly, I attend a yearly gathering with a particular set of friends that has been initiated by the same person for 15 years. Is she sick of it? I don't know! But if any of the rest of us initiated, it would feel like we'd usurped her somehow.
Knowing Idea Initiating People is fun, and when I find myself in a friend circle that is lacking someone in that role, I try to gently assume it so that fun can be had. I personally would be happy/relieved for others to step up too -- while at the same time I am hesitant to speak up in a group that has an entrenched Idea Person already.
posted by apparently at 7:18 AM on November 20, 2020
Knowing Idea Initiating People is fun, and when I find myself in a friend circle that is lacking someone in that role, I try to gently assume it so that fun can be had. I personally would be happy/relieved for others to step up too -- while at the same time I am hesitant to speak up in a group that has an entrenched Idea Person already.
posted by apparently at 7:18 AM on November 20, 2020
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posted by dum spiro spero at 11:32 AM on October 31, 2020 [11 favorites]