Signs, signs, everywhere signs
October 11, 2020 10:00 PM Subscribe
For years, I and many other people who live in my condo complex have used a concrete walking trail behind an adjacent neighborhood, and people who live in that neighborhood have used a similar trail that goes behind our complex. Today, I was confronted by a person who lives in that neighborhood and asked to stop using their trail. Help me figure out how to navigate this low-stakes legal/ethical situation.
For clarification, this is in the US.
The path of the walking trail behind my condo complex at one point comes extremely close to one end of the trail that spans the length of the backside of an adjacent neighborhood. So many people in both the neighborhood and my complex treat them as one long trail that there is a path worn into the grassy area that separates them. There are multiple small signs posted at the property line in front of the neighborhood's trail stating that it is for the use of homeowners and guests only. These have been roundly ignored by residents of our complex who jog, walk, or walk their dogs for the several years that I have lived here.
I try to be respectful when using the neighborhood trail to walk my dog. I don't go off the trail into what I would consider anyone's backyard, I keep my pet on a leash, I pick up after my dog (of course), and I keep to myself. People in the neighborhood have generally been friendly when they see me, but that may be because they have no way of knowing whether or not I live in their neighborhood. This is the first time anyone has ever objected to my use of the neighborhood trail in the several years that I have been using it.
Today, my dog urinated briefly on a Halloween/Fall decoration that a homeowner who lives near the convergence of the trails had placed beside the trail on the side managed by their HOA (so not technically in his backyard). When I passed back by his house, he confronted me in a clearly ticked off, but not terribly intimidating or threatening manner.
I felt kind of bad about my dog urinating on a display of his, so I apologized and decided to let him get whatever he needed to say off his chest while not committing to do or not do anything in the future. He told me that the neighborhood and the complex were two different things (I think he assumed I just moved in) and that homeowners pay for the upkeep of that trail, so they should be the only ones to use it. I basically responded to all of his statements with some version of "I am able to understand what you are saying" and let him walk back inside before leaving.
A few questions:
1. Do you think it's ethical for me to use this trail? I don't exert too much wear and tear on it by walking on the concrete, I try to be respectful of the homeowners, and the trail is never remotely close to being so crowded that the neighborhood residents can't enjoy it. I typically see only one or two individuals or groups on the trail when I use it. On the other hand, I don't live there, I don't pay the fees for its upkeep, and I am ignoring posted signs that speak for some (although clearly not all) of the resident's wishes.
2. When I walked on the HOA managed trail of a neighborhood I don't live in, assuming that I stayed off any single individual's property, was I not trespassing at all, trespassing once, or trespassing dozens of times by walking past all the houses? Obviously, YANML.
3. Aside from calling the the police with a complaint that I'm pretty sure they'd roll their eyes at (everyone in this story is a middle class white male), I suppose the guy could try to get physical if he sees me on the trail again. Would it be a crime of some sort if he grabbed me or hit me without causing much damage? Beyond defending myself if absolutely necessary, I have no desire to make any of this physical. Again, YANML.
If anyone can think of any other issues I should consider, I'd appreciate it.
For clarification, this is in the US.
The path of the walking trail behind my condo complex at one point comes extremely close to one end of the trail that spans the length of the backside of an adjacent neighborhood. So many people in both the neighborhood and my complex treat them as one long trail that there is a path worn into the grassy area that separates them. There are multiple small signs posted at the property line in front of the neighborhood's trail stating that it is for the use of homeowners and guests only. These have been roundly ignored by residents of our complex who jog, walk, or walk their dogs for the several years that I have lived here.
I try to be respectful when using the neighborhood trail to walk my dog. I don't go off the trail into what I would consider anyone's backyard, I keep my pet on a leash, I pick up after my dog (of course), and I keep to myself. People in the neighborhood have generally been friendly when they see me, but that may be because they have no way of knowing whether or not I live in their neighborhood. This is the first time anyone has ever objected to my use of the neighborhood trail in the several years that I have been using it.
Today, my dog urinated briefly on a Halloween/Fall decoration that a homeowner who lives near the convergence of the trails had placed beside the trail on the side managed by their HOA (so not technically in his backyard). When I passed back by his house, he confronted me in a clearly ticked off, but not terribly intimidating or threatening manner.
I felt kind of bad about my dog urinating on a display of his, so I apologized and decided to let him get whatever he needed to say off his chest while not committing to do or not do anything in the future. He told me that the neighborhood and the complex were two different things (I think he assumed I just moved in) and that homeowners pay for the upkeep of that trail, so they should be the only ones to use it. I basically responded to all of his statements with some version of "I am able to understand what you are saying" and let him walk back inside before leaving.
A few questions:
1. Do you think it's ethical for me to use this trail? I don't exert too much wear and tear on it by walking on the concrete, I try to be respectful of the homeowners, and the trail is never remotely close to being so crowded that the neighborhood residents can't enjoy it. I typically see only one or two individuals or groups on the trail when I use it. On the other hand, I don't live there, I don't pay the fees for its upkeep, and I am ignoring posted signs that speak for some (although clearly not all) of the resident's wishes.
2. When I walked on the HOA managed trail of a neighborhood I don't live in, assuming that I stayed off any single individual's property, was I not trespassing at all, trespassing once, or trespassing dozens of times by walking past all the houses? Obviously, YANML.
3. Aside from calling the the police with a complaint that I'm pretty sure they'd roll their eyes at (everyone in this story is a middle class white male), I suppose the guy could try to get physical if he sees me on the trail again. Would it be a crime of some sort if he grabbed me or hit me without causing much damage? Beyond defending myself if absolutely necessary, I have no desire to make any of this physical. Again, YANML.
If anyone can think of any other issues I should consider, I'd appreciate it.
There are multiple small signs posted at the property line in front of the neighborhood's trail stating that it is for the use of homeowners and guests only.
It's not legal or ethical for you to trespass onto your neighboring property - whether it's HOA managed or individually owned.
I don't exert too much wear and tear on it by walking on the concrete
None of these matter. The trail is posted as being restricted use, and it is not on your property. Trespassing is never ethical as it interferes with your neighboring community's property rights.
When I walked on the HOA managed trail of a neighborhood I don't live in, assuming that I stayed off any single individual's property, was I not trespassing at all, trespassing once, or trespassing dozens of times by walking past all the houses?
If it's actually a condo complex, the owners of the neighborhood don't own the land their condo is on, so you'd be trespassing once. However, HOA is not the same as a condo, so if this is, say, a townhome community with an HOA, you'd be committing trespass multiple times.
Would it be a crime of some sort if he grabbed me or hit me without causing much damage?
This is roughly covered by the "castle doctrine" in the USA. This is a highly complex state-by-state specific issue. In general, trespass does not allow for lethal responses (the response must be commensurate with the violation). Some states require the owner to retreat - especially outside their house, but on their property - and hence, active measures like you are describing would not be legal. In others, that's not the case - especially in "stand your ground" states.
I'll note that the neighbor you met may not actually own any part of their property or the HOA's property, and hence, may not be able to defend it at all legally.
posted by saeculorum at 10:19 PM on October 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
It's not legal or ethical for you to trespass onto your neighboring property - whether it's HOA managed or individually owned.
I don't exert too much wear and tear on it by walking on the concrete
None of these matter. The trail is posted as being restricted use, and it is not on your property. Trespassing is never ethical as it interferes with your neighboring community's property rights.
When I walked on the HOA managed trail of a neighborhood I don't live in, assuming that I stayed off any single individual's property, was I not trespassing at all, trespassing once, or trespassing dozens of times by walking past all the houses?
If it's actually a condo complex, the owners of the neighborhood don't own the land their condo is on, so you'd be trespassing once. However, HOA is not the same as a condo, so if this is, say, a townhome community with an HOA, you'd be committing trespass multiple times.
Would it be a crime of some sort if he grabbed me or hit me without causing much damage?
This is roughly covered by the "castle doctrine" in the USA. This is a highly complex state-by-state specific issue. In general, trespass does not allow for lethal responses (the response must be commensurate with the violation). Some states require the owner to retreat - especially outside their house, but on their property - and hence, active measures like you are describing would not be legal. In others, that's not the case - especially in "stand your ground" states.
I'll note that the neighbor you met may not actually own any part of their property or the HOA's property, and hence, may not be able to defend it at all legally.
posted by saeculorum at 10:19 PM on October 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
Mmm. saeculorum makes a fair point -- unfortunately, in some places in the USA he might be technically within the law if it's his property? Still, though, it sounds like you weren't on land that he owns himself. And anyway, from an ethical standpoint I think you're just fine. Just walk your dog, it's not a big deal.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:26 PM on October 11, 2020
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:26 PM on October 11, 2020
Not ETHICAL?? The law may not be on your side, but walking on a pedestrian walking trail is ethically totally fine in any sane universe.
Keep doing your thing. Don't let your dog pee on or near your uptight neighbors' yards.
posted by latkes at 10:33 PM on October 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
Keep doing your thing. Don't let your dog pee on or near your uptight neighbors' yards.
posted by latkes at 10:33 PM on October 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
Assuming the land you are walking on doesn't belong to you and isn't public property, you are breaking the law and you should stop. Your rationalizations about how walking there is traditional and you don't do a lot of damage are irrelevant, the fact is it isn't your land to walk on in the first place.
I would be upset too if some guy's dog pissed on a decoration I put up on property that I pay to maintain and he does not. There's nothing "uptight" about that, but you're hearing from a few other people who also do disrespectful things and then rationalize them.
I'm guessing on some level you realize what you're doing is wrong, or you wouldn't have written this elaborate question. Embrace the part of you that has ethical sense and don't listen to your rationalization hamster.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:38 PM on October 11, 2020 [49 favorites]
I would be upset too if some guy's dog pissed on a decoration I put up on property that I pay to maintain and he does not. There's nothing "uptight" about that, but you're hearing from a few other people who also do disrespectful things and then rationalize them.
I'm guessing on some level you realize what you're doing is wrong, or you wouldn't have written this elaborate question. Embrace the part of you that has ethical sense and don't listen to your rationalization hamster.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 10:38 PM on October 11, 2020 [49 favorites]
Your dog pissed on his decorations and reading between the lines you don’t actually give a shit. Apologize again and offer to rinse off or get him a new one and keep your dog away from decorations in the future. The trail itself is besides the point.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:43 PM on October 11, 2020 [46 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:43 PM on October 11, 2020 [46 favorites]
I think practically, this guy has you clocked and the smoothest path forward is to no longer use the trail (or at the very least no longer use the sections near his house). Even if escalating doesn't lead to a police encounter, it could lead to the HOA putting up a fence, making complaints to your condo board, etc. etc. Basically I would never bet against the pettiness of an HOA.
My dog knows a "hup hup" command to move past any vertical objects he may want to pee on. It's easy to teach and I did so after a similar encounter with someone who rightly did not want my dog to pee on their planter.
posted by muddgirl at 10:55 PM on October 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
My dog knows a "hup hup" command to move past any vertical objects he may want to pee on. It's easy to teach and I did so after a similar encounter with someone who rightly did not want my dog to pee on their planter.
posted by muddgirl at 10:55 PM on October 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't think you'll find a consensus on whether it's ethical to use the trail. It's a much more political question than it appears at first. In a well-designed and fair community, this would be a public trail, legally accessible to all.
Normally, my reaction would be to say it's perfectly fine to use the trail, because it should be public in the first place and because only asshole NIMBYs would give a shit.
But, really, I see a couple of things here that make me sympathetic to him:
(a) Your dog pissed on his Halloween decoration and you don't appear to think it's symptomatic of a larger problem. You try to minimize it by pointing out that it wasn't technically in his backyard. You said you apologized, but did you offer to buy him a replacement?
(b) There there are (multiple!!) signs warning people not to trespass, suggesting that people do have a problem with you using the trail. It's unlikely to be just this one guy.
(c) You're all middle class white guys so he's probably not mad about the "wrong sort of people" using his trail.
My guess is that people from your complex using the trail do cause minor, annoying problems that increase upkeep and make it less pleasant to use - things like letting their dogs pee in people's yards (or on their decorations), not cleaning up dog poop, and littering. My guess is also that some members of the HOA resent this - and that's how you got the signs. However, no one wants to be "that guy" and confront the trespassers in person ...
... until your dog pissed on this guy's decoration, he saw it, and it pushed him into finally confronting you.
In your situation, I wouldn't use the trail anymore. And it wouldn't solve anything, because other people in my complex would probably continue to use it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:06 PM on October 11, 2020 [25 favorites]
Normally, my reaction would be to say it's perfectly fine to use the trail, because it should be public in the first place and because only asshole NIMBYs would give a shit.
But, really, I see a couple of things here that make me sympathetic to him:
(a) Your dog pissed on his Halloween decoration and you don't appear to think it's symptomatic of a larger problem. You try to minimize it by pointing out that it wasn't technically in his backyard. You said you apologized, but did you offer to buy him a replacement?
(b) There there are (multiple!!) signs warning people not to trespass, suggesting that people do have a problem with you using the trail. It's unlikely to be just this one guy.
(c) You're all middle class white guys so he's probably not mad about the "wrong sort of people" using his trail.
My guess is that people from your complex using the trail do cause minor, annoying problems that increase upkeep and make it less pleasant to use - things like letting their dogs pee in people's yards (or on their decorations), not cleaning up dog poop, and littering. My guess is also that some members of the HOA resent this - and that's how you got the signs. However, no one wants to be "that guy" and confront the trespassers in person ...
... until your dog pissed on this guy's decoration, he saw it, and it pushed him into finally confronting you.
In your situation, I wouldn't use the trail anymore. And it wouldn't solve anything, because other people in my complex would probably continue to use it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:06 PM on October 11, 2020 [25 favorites]
If your pet (or child, or anyone/thing within your control) urinates on a decoration that someone put up (or pretty much any item not found in nature), I think you're ethically obligated to remove it, wash/sanitize it, and replace it. And make sure it never happens again, which includes holding tighter to the leash, and not letting your pet off property that is either public or which you are legally authorized to use. Other people's stuff isn't there to be a bathroom for pets.
The fact that other people are scofflaws is meaningless to all of this. The amount of "wear and tear" you and your dog personally exert is meaningless. If it's not your trail and signs tell you that it's not your trail, it's tacky of you to walk on it. It doesn't matter whether other people do it, or if it's traditional, or if they walk on yours and you don't mind. This is one of those, "Not cool, dude" situations. We can't know the legal certainly without more details.
And yes, if someone grabs you or hits you, that's illegal (and considered battery), no matter whether there's damage done to you. I don't know what happened to make you think this would escalate from talking to being physical. But if you insist on doing something kind of jerky (like letting your dog pee on other people's things or going on property that is not public and not your own), I don't know that you're going to get a lot of sympathy if someone does get inappropriately, illegally physical. Why not just stay on your own property and revel in doing the right thing?
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:15 PM on October 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
The fact that other people are scofflaws is meaningless to all of this. The amount of "wear and tear" you and your dog personally exert is meaningless. If it's not your trail and signs tell you that it's not your trail, it's tacky of you to walk on it. It doesn't matter whether other people do it, or if it's traditional, or if they walk on yours and you don't mind. This is one of those, "Not cool, dude" situations. We can't know the legal certainly without more details.
And yes, if someone grabs you or hits you, that's illegal (and considered battery), no matter whether there's damage done to you. I don't know what happened to make you think this would escalate from talking to being physical. But if you insist on doing something kind of jerky (like letting your dog pee on other people's things or going on property that is not public and not your own), I don't know that you're going to get a lot of sympathy if someone does get inappropriately, illegally physical. Why not just stay on your own property and revel in doing the right thing?
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:15 PM on October 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
I think saeculorum gave the only legally right answer he could give, at least given with what we know.
I don't get what all this is about a stupid lawn ornament. It does admittedly look bad your dog pissed on it but it is a cheap seasonal lawn ornament, put near a trail people have apparently been using so much they felt the need to put up a sign.
The bigger problem likely isn't the ornament but the amount of dogs pissing on the lawn. As someone who has two dogs and walks them in the neighborhood all the time I know that they love to piss where other dogs piss and that can create serious yard damage.
Now if I cared that much and I had lawn ornaments that were a giant "piss on me" target to dogs AND I lived near a trail head, I'd probably put up a fence or something. In any case, repairing a yard after you get brown spots is the real damage and not done by one dog but by many.
I have no idea why you'd want to offer to replace an outdoor lawn ornament, unless your dog pees straight acid it didn't hurt it.
posted by geoff. at 11:17 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't get what all this is about a stupid lawn ornament. It does admittedly look bad your dog pissed on it but it is a cheap seasonal lawn ornament, put near a trail people have apparently been using so much they felt the need to put up a sign.
The bigger problem likely isn't the ornament but the amount of dogs pissing on the lawn. As someone who has two dogs and walks them in the neighborhood all the time I know that they love to piss where other dogs piss and that can create serious yard damage.
Now if I cared that much and I had lawn ornaments that were a giant "piss on me" target to dogs AND I lived near a trail head, I'd probably put up a fence or something. In any case, repairing a yard after you get brown spots is the real damage and not done by one dog but by many.
I have no idea why you'd want to offer to replace an outdoor lawn ornament, unless your dog pees straight acid it didn't hurt it.
posted by geoff. at 11:17 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I posted too soon. Reading this on the Internet people seem really worked up over this. I guess if I was that concerned over my lawn and my ornaments I'd put a fence and assume that even the best trained pets will go when they gotta go. Plus wild animals certainly don't consult HOA policies when they do whatever it is they do. Anyway that's not the question, you're the target of this whether you like it or not and you should just not use a clearly marked path that says don't go there.
If you're looking for sympathy that common trails used by the public should have some sort of right of way, you have it but that's not how property rights apparently work here.
posted by geoff. at 11:32 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you're looking for sympathy that common trails used by the public should have some sort of right of way, you have it but that's not how property rights apparently work here.
posted by geoff. at 11:32 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
There’s signs clearly posted saying that you’re not allowed to be there. So you’re ignoring it and then allowing your dog to destroy other peoples’s property by urinating on it. And you’re still asking if what you’re doing is ethical and respectful. Seriously?! I mean, it’s not worth getting into a fight over this - if I were the guy I’d basically get quietly annoyed at you and get on with my day - but you’re clearly in the wrong.
Also the way you’re asking this question (is it a crime for him to hit you when you do it again...ummm yes he’s not allowed to get physical) makes it seem like you don’t give a damn what he thinks, you have every intention of doing what you please and now you’re just trying to figure out how bad the repercussions can be. How about everyone involved does the right thing, don’t be a jerk and walk your dog somewhere you’re legally allowed to. Why look for trouble?
posted by Jubey at 11:44 PM on October 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
Also the way you’re asking this question (is it a crime for him to hit you when you do it again...ummm yes he’s not allowed to get physical) makes it seem like you don’t give a damn what he thinks, you have every intention of doing what you please and now you’re just trying to figure out how bad the repercussions can be. How about everyone involved does the right thing, don’t be a jerk and walk your dog somewhere you’re legally allowed to. Why look for trouble?
posted by Jubey at 11:44 PM on October 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
Do you know anyone in the neighborhood? Ask them if you can be their guest walking on the path. If it is for the residents and their guests and you have permission to be a homeowners guest, I see no issues.
I would add to the chorus of not letting your dog pee on someone's ornament. I have been able to yank my dog's leash to prevent him from peeing where I did not want him to.
posted by AugustWest at 11:53 PM on October 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
I would add to the chorus of not letting your dog pee on someone's ornament. I have been able to yank my dog's leash to prevent him from peeing where I did not want him to.
posted by AugustWest at 11:53 PM on October 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
If people from your condo and others have used that trail for years, you could have a right to continue to use it whether or not it's on their property because a tradition of such use without objection by the owner often establishes such a right.
Seafirst Bank in Seattle was so concerned about this that they set little brass plaques in some of the sidewalks around the building saying that allowing people to walk there was revocable at any time and did not confer any rights of passage.
You say there are signs saying it's reserved for residents, but if they allowed general use of it for years before putting up the signs, as I understand it the signs would not annul the right to continue to use it. And if there was a path there before that property was bought and built on, the general public would typically still have a right of passage.
posted by jamjam at 11:57 PM on October 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
Seafirst Bank in Seattle was so concerned about this that they set little brass plaques in some of the sidewalks around the building saying that allowing people to walk there was revocable at any time and did not confer any rights of passage.
You say there are signs saying it's reserved for residents, but if they allowed general use of it for years before putting up the signs, as I understand it the signs would not annul the right to continue to use it. And if there was a path there before that property was bought and built on, the general public would typically still have a right of passage.
posted by jamjam at 11:57 PM on October 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think ethically it’s wrong. As a woman sometimes I feel intimidated walking around on a path alone. There may be women who bought property there for the sole reason that they would feel safer walking on a private path where presumably the only people using it are also residents. Also, having lived near a green space path previously I wouldn’t do it again because some dog walkers tend to loiter and take the opportunity to look in everyone’s garden and windows while their dogs sniff around for ages... and some don’t clean up after their pups. You are a stranger in their space and I think that’s ethically wrong to push the boundaries.
posted by pairofshades at 12:07 AM on October 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by pairofshades at 12:07 AM on October 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
I am not in the US, so I can't speak directly of the legal issues, but I had a relevant experience this summer.
I own something other people call a trail, but I call my driveway. Actually I'm fine with people walking on it as long as they don't come too close to the house and don't litter. But one day a couple walked their dog there while my sister was out talking on her phone because of the bad connection here. My unleashed dog had followed her without anyone noticing. My sister probably acted aggressively towards the couple, and my dog bit the other dog till it bled and needed a couple of stitches. Very, very sad story in many ways, but what happened next was that the couple called the police on me for letting my agressive dog run loose. And after several months (this was not the most important case in the district), the police decided to ask me if I wanted to report them for trespassing. It turns out my dog has the right to run loose and bite other dogs on my driveway/trail. I prefer it when he doesn't, but now I'm putting up warning signs to make sure people understand their legal status when they are walking there, even though the police officer said signs aren't legally necessary.
What I'm saying is that if something happens and you are trespassing, you are probably in a problematic legal situation. Don't imagine nothing can happen, although my dog is anxious, I had never thought something like this could happen, I bet that couple hadn't either. And "something" doesn't have to be about the dog. You could stumble, and damage a tree or a fence (something I've seen more than once). Even though you don't feel you wear down anything, I can see two different families are wearing little paths to connect to my driveway, in spite of only using it during holidays.
posted by mumimor at 1:21 AM on October 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
I own something other people call a trail, but I call my driveway. Actually I'm fine with people walking on it as long as they don't come too close to the house and don't litter. But one day a couple walked their dog there while my sister was out talking on her phone because of the bad connection here. My unleashed dog had followed her without anyone noticing. My sister probably acted aggressively towards the couple, and my dog bit the other dog till it bled and needed a couple of stitches. Very, very sad story in many ways, but what happened next was that the couple called the police on me for letting my agressive dog run loose. And after several months (this was not the most important case in the district), the police decided to ask me if I wanted to report them for trespassing. It turns out my dog has the right to run loose and bite other dogs on my driveway/trail. I prefer it when he doesn't, but now I'm putting up warning signs to make sure people understand their legal status when they are walking there, even though the police officer said signs aren't legally necessary.
What I'm saying is that if something happens and you are trespassing, you are probably in a problematic legal situation. Don't imagine nothing can happen, although my dog is anxious, I had never thought something like this could happen, I bet that couple hadn't either. And "something" doesn't have to be about the dog. You could stumble, and damage a tree or a fence (something I've seen more than once). Even though you don't feel you wear down anything, I can see two different families are wearing little paths to connect to my driveway, in spite of only using it during holidays.
posted by mumimor at 1:21 AM on October 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
Ethically - no big deal from my point of view. Apart from your dog pissing on someone's stuff, that part wasn't great. There's a dog behaviour improvement opportunity for you there, if you want it. But aside from that, you're doing nobody any harm.
Legally - yeah, who knows? Maybe you've all established a right of way over their path by virtue of having used it all these years. That can totally happen where I live, but obviously none of us here have any clue whether it applies in your case. You could take legal advice if you care enough & don't mind spending money - but it's equally as likely that you'd get an answer that you don't want. You might prefer ambiguity to knowing for certain that you're trespassing.
Practically - I'd probably steer clear of that particular guy's property for a while, because he's going to be looking out for the dog-pissing guy & it's not going to be fun for either of you if he spots you again in the near future. But if it was me, after a short while of lying low I would quietly go back to doing exactly what you've evidently been doing for years with close to zero hassle.
posted by rd45 at 2:25 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Legally - yeah, who knows? Maybe you've all established a right of way over their path by virtue of having used it all these years. That can totally happen where I live, but obviously none of us here have any clue whether it applies in your case. You could take legal advice if you care enough & don't mind spending money - but it's equally as likely that you'd get an answer that you don't want. You might prefer ambiguity to knowing for certain that you're trespassing.
Practically - I'd probably steer clear of that particular guy's property for a while, because he's going to be looking out for the dog-pissing guy & it's not going to be fun for either of you if he spots you again in the near future. But if it was me, after a short while of lying low I would quietly go back to doing exactly what you've evidently been doing for years with close to zero hassle.
posted by rd45 at 2:25 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
With respect to the signs- are they signs put up by the HOA, or are they signs put up by some guy? A certain type of person loves to invent rules and laws that do not exist. This kind of person will often also decide that they own the parking space in front of their house and harass anyone who parks there, both in person and with signs.
You might spend a bit of time looking at the planning documents for both your development and your neighbors. Developers can often get increased density (and higher profits) by adding “public space” in areas that they can’t use, like a trail on an edge of the property. The rights of way may have also been deeded over to local government so that maintenance is their problem now.
Assuming that both paths are, in fact, privately held, if you want to have a legal leg to stand on you should go to your HOA board (or join it!) and figure out how to contact the other HOA board, and start the process of setting up a memorandum of understanding between the HOAs that allows members of each to walk on each other’s trails. For all you know, this MOU may already exist.
posted by rockindata at 3:42 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
You might spend a bit of time looking at the planning documents for both your development and your neighbors. Developers can often get increased density (and higher profits) by adding “public space” in areas that they can’t use, like a trail on an edge of the property. The rights of way may have also been deeded over to local government so that maintenance is their problem now.
Assuming that both paths are, in fact, privately held, if you want to have a legal leg to stand on you should go to your HOA board (or join it!) and figure out how to contact the other HOA board, and start the process of setting up a memorandum of understanding between the HOAs that allows members of each to walk on each other’s trails. For all you know, this MOU may already exist.
posted by rockindata at 3:42 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think the questions is really, "Did this guy have a right to get upset after my dog peed on his Halloween decoration?" - Yes. All the stuff about it only peed quickly, it's just a decoration, not technically in his backyard, etc. is irrelevant. I don't think you can editorialize how he should feel, from your point of view, about what you allowed to happen.
I'm not sure about any of the other legal stuff, maybe the solution is to have your dog pee outside your apartments instead.
start the process of setting up a memorandum of understanding between the HOAs that allows members of each to walk on each other’s trails. For all you know, this MOU may already exist.
Maybe this would address allowing members to walk their dogs on each other's trails while maintaining control of them? I'm sure they are fine with just walkers.
posted by carter at 4:51 AM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure about any of the other legal stuff, maybe the solution is to have your dog pee outside your apartments instead.
start the process of setting up a memorandum of understanding between the HOAs that allows members of each to walk on each other’s trails. For all you know, this MOU may already exist.
Maybe this would address allowing members to walk their dogs on each other's trails while maintaining control of them? I'm sure they are fine with just walkers.
posted by carter at 4:51 AM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’m wondering how anyone knows this lawn decoration was cheap or not a family heirloom.
Dog owners often seem unaware that not everyone is ok with poop and pee where their kids play or on a yard they work hard to maintain or on their stuff. I’m with the “did you offer to buy him a new ornament?” and “if the signs say you’re trespassing you have no leg to stand on” bunch here. Way too much rationalization going on in the OP. The law is not on your side. And those signs mean no “traditional” right of way can be asserted. That’s why people post them prominently.
posted by spitbull at 5:58 AM on October 12, 2020 [33 favorites]
Dog owners often seem unaware that not everyone is ok with poop and pee where their kids play or on a yard they work hard to maintain or on their stuff. I’m with the “did you offer to buy him a new ornament?” and “if the signs say you’re trespassing you have no leg to stand on” bunch here. Way too much rationalization going on in the OP. The law is not on your side. And those signs mean no “traditional” right of way can be asserted. That’s why people post them prominently.
posted by spitbull at 5:58 AM on October 12, 2020 [33 favorites]
Ethically, I think the more important question is not about what wear and tear you might personally create by walking the path, it's about people having what they expect to be a quiet private trail, effectively being open to the public. And by extension, about their properties being more frequently overlooked, there being greater access for people of ill-intent, them not knowing who's walking past their house, etc. You might say "But I'm not of ill-intent!", they don't know that, and their homes would be more secure if they knew for sure that everyone who walked past it, was somebody who lived in their development.
You say you're not creating wear and tear, but your dog has peed on somebody else's display even though you keep him on a leash (so... you let him?). IME, people have wildly different views of how much dog pee is a contaminant, but I think a lot of non-dog owners would be irked by this.
I am ignoring posted signs that speak for some (although clearly not all) of the resident's wishes.
Where are you getting the 'although clearly not all' from?
posted by penguin pie at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
You say you're not creating wear and tear, but your dog has peed on somebody else's display even though you keep him on a leash (so... you let him?). IME, people have wildly different views of how much dog pee is a contaminant, but I think a lot of non-dog owners would be irked by this.
I am ignoring posted signs that speak for some (although clearly not all) of the resident's wishes.
Where are you getting the 'although clearly not all' from?
posted by penguin pie at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
As far as the legalities and ethics, I think this thread has it well covered. As far as the practicalities, I would take a couple of weeks off from using the trail, while this dude may be running hot about your encounter with him. In my experience, many "neighborhood friction"-type scenarios simply go away with time, as people cool off/move on/find something else to be upset about.
posted by Mid at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Mid at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'd be unhappy about your dog peeing on my stuff; that's rude and gross. Go buy a nice similar item, leave it with a bow.
Walking paths used by neighbors create community and are safe and a good thing, so I would continue walking there.
posted by theora55 at 6:37 AM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Walking paths used by neighbors create community and are safe and a good thing, so I would continue walking there.
posted by theora55 at 6:37 AM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Absent anything else, you need to develop a better sense of when your dog is about to go, and teach it to listen to you when you say "not there".
That seems to be the straw that broke the neighbor; and that same behavior accumulated over all the dog walkers that were illegally using the path (face it, after the signs went up you were willfully trespassing) may be the whole reason that the crackdown happened.
Although I do think there are scenarios in which the shared path could be used ethically, yours sounds questionable and your questions seem to reveal a desire for an other-than-ethical justification for said use.
posted by achrise at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2020
That seems to be the straw that broke the neighbor; and that same behavior accumulated over all the dog walkers that were illegally using the path (face it, after the signs went up you were willfully trespassing) may be the whole reason that the crackdown happened.
Although I do think there are scenarios in which the shared path could be used ethically, yours sounds questionable and your questions seem to reveal a desire for an other-than-ethical justification for said use.
posted by achrise at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2020
As soon as the signs went up the ethical thing to do was to get permission from the HOA before you used the trail.
Contact the HOA and ask for permission. If they say yes, thank them, respect their property when you walk through and make sure your dog does its business on your side of the property, never theirs. If they say no, do not set foot over the property line again except in an urgent situation such as chasing a runaway dog or fleeing a mugger unless you are using the front entrance to go up to the door and have a reason for approaching them.
It doesn't matter in the least what other people do. If you trespass you are fully culpable for not only trespassing but egging on others to do so. Keep it very much in mind that "everybody else does it" is not an excuse for any wrong doing or discourtesy, it's actually a justification for bullying. There is a might make right doctrine behind everybody else does it - they can't stop all of us - they can't prove it was my dog - those are not ethical arguments but descriptions of why you think you can get away with it.
As for the Halloween decoration - are you okay with strange dogs pissing on things that you will have to handle? The owner of the decorations is going to have to take them down and if they become an item every dog going down the path scent marks, the dog owners are collectively being very disrespectful indeed.
Think de-escalation rather than standing up for your "rights".
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:43 AM on October 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
Contact the HOA and ask for permission. If they say yes, thank them, respect their property when you walk through and make sure your dog does its business on your side of the property, never theirs. If they say no, do not set foot over the property line again except in an urgent situation such as chasing a runaway dog or fleeing a mugger unless you are using the front entrance to go up to the door and have a reason for approaching them.
It doesn't matter in the least what other people do. If you trespass you are fully culpable for not only trespassing but egging on others to do so. Keep it very much in mind that "everybody else does it" is not an excuse for any wrong doing or discourtesy, it's actually a justification for bullying. There is a might make right doctrine behind everybody else does it - they can't stop all of us - they can't prove it was my dog - those are not ethical arguments but descriptions of why you think you can get away with it.
As for the Halloween decoration - are you okay with strange dogs pissing on things that you will have to handle? The owner of the decorations is going to have to take them down and if they become an item every dog going down the path scent marks, the dog owners are collectively being very disrespectful indeed.
Think de-escalation rather than standing up for your "rights".
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:43 AM on October 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
I’d keep using it, but I am not sure I can explain completely why. Maybe because enforcement of this rule seems classist and irrational.
posted by amaire at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by amaire at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think the OP is being disingenuous, omitting all the doggy details until below the fold. That makes this about a whole lot more than mere access to a public right-of-way.
And why is this so familiar? Is this a repost of a similar question posted somewhere else recently?
posted by Rash at 8:45 AM on October 12, 2020
And why is this so familiar? Is this a repost of a similar question posted somewhere else recently?
posted by Rash at 8:45 AM on October 12, 2020
I agree that you might be breaking the law walking on property that is probably not public, but outdoor decorations are going to get pissed on, blown around by the wind, chewed on by wildlife, rain, snow, etc. If the guy doesn't like that, then he should be putting them on a porch or somewhere protected from the elements.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:54 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:54 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
You were (most likely) on property owned by the HOA (private property) and your animal peed on someone else's property. You are in the wrong here, period. "Who has a right to the trails/paths" is not the question here. I'm guessing it's not about wear and tear on a path - if this is how you treat your dog's behavior on that property, no wonder the HOA and neighborhood residents don't want you on the trail. You are being a bad neighbor and trying to make it sound like you're the victim.
"so I apologized and decided to let him get whatever he needed to say off his chest while not committing to do or not do anything in the future."
This quote tells it all - you know you did something wrong but you refuse to do anything about it. Be responsible, quit trespassing, and control your animal's waste.
posted by _DB_ at 8:56 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
"so I apologized and decided to let him get whatever he needed to say off his chest while not committing to do or not do anything in the future."
This quote tells it all - you know you did something wrong but you refuse to do anything about it. Be responsible, quit trespassing, and control your animal's waste.
posted by _DB_ at 8:56 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
As a legal and ethical matter, if it’s private property and they don’t want you on it, that’s the end of the story. All this about pissing on the decoration, whether you inflict wear and tear on the trail, etc., is irrelevant.
This being the real world though, I would just take a month or two off from walking on this trail to let the guy simmer down. Everyone’s tense right now. There have been times when I’ve been ready to risk imprisonment for the satisfaction of revenge on various neighbors, but I always just waited it out and the problem always just went away.
posted by HotToddy at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
This being the real world though, I would just take a month or two off from walking on this trail to let the guy simmer down. Everyone’s tense right now. There have been times when I’ve been ready to risk imprisonment for the satisfaction of revenge on various neighbors, but I always just waited it out and the problem always just went away.
posted by HotToddy at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Like rockindata said, look up who actually owns that land. If it is private property, and the owners don't have any agreement that it's open to the public, then you should avoid it. I would not assume that it's actually private property just because a sign says so, but if it is, that's that.
posted by metasarah at 10:34 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by metasarah at 10:34 AM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have seen the argument before that pets are akin to wild nature and thus no one is responsible for their actions, like a raccoon or a windstorm. Poppycock. A leashed dog is under the control and direction of their owner. The owner can choose to let their dog pee willy nilly but that is still a choice. Similar argument with an unleashed pet. The owner choosing to let their dog run about unleashed is an active choice and the consequences are still on the owner.
posted by muddgirl at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
...consequences such as no longer using a private trail, when otherwise the owners would have turned a blind eye.
posted by muddgirl at 11:09 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:09 AM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also consider that people's comfort level of having others use the trail may have changed due to covid. I would do some digging to find out the legal status of the trail, but do lay low for awhile.
posted by oceano at 11:31 AM on October 12, 2020
posted by oceano at 11:31 AM on October 12, 2020
Someone tried to make the path pretty and festive in this lousy year by putting out a decoration for everyone to share, and you let your dog piss on it. You owe them a new decoration; they're not going to want to store this one in their garage any more. Buy it, write an apologetic note, and find a way to give it to them.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:37 AM on October 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:37 AM on October 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
I think HOAs are Satan's bureaucrats, but if it's owned by them, then it's not for others' use; there could even be liability concerns for something like that. And saying the guy could just put up a fence is crap, because the HOA might have a regulation about fences, or it might not be an affordable option. We don't know. Sure, things will happen to outdoor decorations, but that doesn't mean it's cool to let your dog pee on them and then be self-congratulatory about letting the guy vent about it.
Like others have said, look up the status of the trail, and while you're doing that, maybe don't walk there until you know what your/their rights are. I live on a corner in a well-walked neighborhood where people let their dogs do all kinds of crap to my yard, and at this point I don't even want to take care of it because I just get so tired of picking up their dropped poo bags or their personal trash or trying to cut back the plants their relentlessly peeing dogs have damaged beyond recovery. And I'm a dog lover. It gets really freaking tiresome, and maybe this guy was at the end of his rope.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 1:45 PM on October 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
Like others have said, look up the status of the trail, and while you're doing that, maybe don't walk there until you know what your/their rights are. I live on a corner in a well-walked neighborhood where people let their dogs do all kinds of crap to my yard, and at this point I don't even want to take care of it because I just get so tired of picking up their dropped poo bags or their personal trash or trying to cut back the plants their relentlessly peeing dogs have damaged beyond recovery. And I'm a dog lover. It gets really freaking tiresome, and maybe this guy was at the end of his rope.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 1:45 PM on October 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
You mention living in a condo complex and that the LOA has fenced and backyards. That indicates to me that perhaps there is a density descrepancy between the two neighbourhoods (and perhaps, as well, the size of the relative trails?)
I can see people in a low-density neighbourhood with an extensive trail system being annoyed that a much larger number of people from a high density condo are using their private trails they pay to maintain (and paid the initial cost of purchase).
I guess I would see it as akin to a limited-member private off-leash dog park for 20 dogs that requires membership dues; the argument that “your dog” is not a burden to add for free to make 21 dogs falls apart when 40 other people also want their dogs to use the park for free. It isn’t quite a tragedy of the commons, but worse, as a small group of specific people are paying for everyone to have access to a nice resource.
I’m not sure if the trail beside your condo belongs to your complex or is a Town trail, but maybe start discussing with your elected officials about creating more trails in your community if you find the trail beside your complex to be too small for your needs. If the trail is owned by your complex, get involved in the governance of the condo and suggest more trails be added to the property you already own.
posted by saucysault at 2:13 PM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can see people in a low-density neighbourhood with an extensive trail system being annoyed that a much larger number of people from a high density condo are using their private trails they pay to maintain (and paid the initial cost of purchase).
I guess I would see it as akin to a limited-member private off-leash dog park for 20 dogs that requires membership dues; the argument that “your dog” is not a burden to add for free to make 21 dogs falls apart when 40 other people also want their dogs to use the park for free. It isn’t quite a tragedy of the commons, but worse, as a small group of specific people are paying for everyone to have access to a nice resource.
I’m not sure if the trail beside your condo belongs to your complex or is a Town trail, but maybe start discussing with your elected officials about creating more trails in your community if you find the trail beside your complex to be too small for your needs. If the trail is owned by your complex, get involved in the governance of the condo and suggest more trails be added to the property you already own.
posted by saucysault at 2:13 PM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Their neighborhood,
Their trail,
Their rules...
They don’t want outsiders using it and have put up signs stating that fact.
So don’t use it.
posted by calgirl at 3:30 PM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Their trail,
Their rules...
They don’t want outsiders using it and have put up signs stating that fact.
So don’t use it.
posted by calgirl at 3:30 PM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's a faux pas to let the dog pee on the decoration, but I also find the ideas that you would buy this busybody a new decoration, or wash and return the decoration, or that it might be a "family heirloom" to be hilarious. All else being equal I would use this trail until the end of eternity without a second thought towards the ethics and morality of doing so BUT I am also extremely conflict-avoidant so I'd probably want to do it at a different time when the guy is less likely to be around.
posted by zeusianfog at 4:57 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by zeusianfog at 4:57 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
So I'd bring this to your condo association, to talk to their HOA. It sounds like closing off access to this trail would be a loss for everyone, especially if your condo stopped allowing folks on the condo property. It's possible that this guy went to his HOA for enforcement, and folks said, "Nah, we want to be able to walk behind the condo, so we're not going to enforce this on our side either."
Maybe your condo association and their HOA can come up with an agreement to allow access to folks within those groups.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:14 PM on October 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
Maybe your condo association and their HOA can come up with an agreement to allow access to folks within those groups.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:14 PM on October 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've sort of been on the other side of this, so this comment is written with that in mind.
We have relatives who own property that includes a private dirt/gravel road (we used to own a share of this but don't any longer). A public road leads to it. The change to private property is clearly marked and it is indicated as no trespassing. Though it is marked private, we are all aware that that is routinely violated. What we accept/tolerate are people who walk on the road and leave no sign they had been there. What is a problem are the people who go off the path and walk on plantings and such and mess stuff up, or let their dogs run loose, or let their dogs pee wherever, etc..
So, if this was my neighborhood, you walking on the concrete trail would be fine, but you walking your dog there would be annoying, particularly if your dog peed on my decorations. Dog pee long term can be destructive also, which you seem not to acknowledge, and you are not currently paying for the upkeep of the trail.
This is a possible solution to look into: Maybe your condo association and their HOA can come up with an agreement to allow access to folks within those groups.
posted by gudrun at 5:29 PM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
We have relatives who own property that includes a private dirt/gravel road (we used to own a share of this but don't any longer). A public road leads to it. The change to private property is clearly marked and it is indicated as no trespassing. Though it is marked private, we are all aware that that is routinely violated. What we accept/tolerate are people who walk on the road and leave no sign they had been there. What is a problem are the people who go off the path and walk on plantings and such and mess stuff up, or let their dogs run loose, or let their dogs pee wherever, etc..
So, if this was my neighborhood, you walking on the concrete trail would be fine, but you walking your dog there would be annoying, particularly if your dog peed on my decorations. Dog pee long term can be destructive also, which you seem not to acknowledge, and you are not currently paying for the upkeep of the trail.
This is a possible solution to look into: Maybe your condo association and their HOA can come up with an agreement to allow access to folks within those groups.
posted by gudrun at 5:29 PM on October 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I mean
you seem pretty dismissive about this guy's property being "urinated briefly" upon
and I gotta wonder if you'd feel the same way if it had been something of yours that was "urinated briefly" upon, and how you'd feel about the offending party wondering if it was ethical for them to continue that or similar behavior.
A good rule of thumb in life is this: How would you feel if someone did the same thing to you?
Consider that, and then go with whatever seems fairest.
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:53 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
you seem pretty dismissive about this guy's property being "urinated briefly" upon
and I gotta wonder if you'd feel the same way if it had been something of yours that was "urinated briefly" upon, and how you'd feel about the offending party wondering if it was ethical for them to continue that or similar behavior.
A good rule of thumb in life is this: How would you feel if someone did the same thing to you?
Consider that, and then go with whatever seems fairest.
posted by WaywardPlane at 5:53 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
"Someone tried to make the path pretty and festive in this lousy year by putting out a decoration for everyone to share, and you let your dog piss on it. You owe them a new decoration; they're not going to want to store this one in their garage any more. Buy it, write an apologetic note, and find a way to give it to them."
The corpse in the library has it. Letting your dog literally piss on someone else's attempt at community/celebration this year is beyond unethical, regardless of how you judge its quality.
posted by headnsouth at 4:25 AM on October 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
The corpse in the library has it. Letting your dog literally piss on someone else's attempt at community/celebration this year is beyond unethical, regardless of how you judge its quality.
posted by headnsouth at 4:25 AM on October 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
If people from your condo and others have used that trail for years, you could have a right to continue to use it whether or not it's on their property because a tradition of such use without objection by the owner often establishes such a right.
We had a similar situation with my former condo building, and after the legal dust settled it turned out that allowing access to people from our "sister building," and making use of reciprocal access to theirs, had created rights of easement for both sides. The signs put up by various annoyed condo presidents and owners over the years didn't change that, since nobody had actively prohibited use by, for example, blocking off the paths for a period. (In my jurisdiction, that period could be as short as 12 hours per year.) If you're really worried about the legal situation, it might be worth doing some digging.
But really, the problem is that your dog peed on somebody's Halloween cheer, and that person got annoyed (despite having put it up in an area frequented by dog walkers from his complex and yours, which is not so wise either). In your shoes I would take another route and avoid that guy for a couple of weeks, and then be very careful about making sure my dog did not do anything like that again. (And, if it ever does happen, apologize profusely and without reservation and offer to clean and/or replace anything that got damaged.)
posted by rpfields at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2020
We had a similar situation with my former condo building, and after the legal dust settled it turned out that allowing access to people from our "sister building," and making use of reciprocal access to theirs, had created rights of easement for both sides. The signs put up by various annoyed condo presidents and owners over the years didn't change that, since nobody had actively prohibited use by, for example, blocking off the paths for a period. (In my jurisdiction, that period could be as short as 12 hours per year.) If you're really worried about the legal situation, it might be worth doing some digging.
But really, the problem is that your dog peed on somebody's Halloween cheer, and that person got annoyed (despite having put it up in an area frequented by dog walkers from his complex and yours, which is not so wise either). In your shoes I would take another route and avoid that guy for a couple of weeks, and then be very careful about making sure my dog did not do anything like that again. (And, if it ever does happen, apologize profusely and without reservation and offer to clean and/or replace anything that got damaged.)
posted by rpfields at 7:46 PM on October 13, 2020
RE: signs
Anyone can put up a sign. People routinely put signs on public property and right of ways claiming it as private property (like we had a large ranch here try to claim two public lakes and the road to them that was paid for by the government as private property). It is an on going problem where developers are required to provide access to bordering greenspace and then somehow over the years the access trails are signed or fenced off. So if you really want to escalate this the first step is to determine the actual ownership of the trail and whether a public easement has been granted if it isn't actually public.
posted by Mitheral at 8:23 PM on October 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Anyone can put up a sign. People routinely put signs on public property and right of ways claiming it as private property (like we had a large ranch here try to claim two public lakes and the road to them that was paid for by the government as private property). It is an on going problem where developers are required to provide access to bordering greenspace and then somehow over the years the access trails are signed or fenced off. So if you really want to escalate this the first step is to determine the actual ownership of the trail and whether a public easement has been granted if it isn't actually public.
posted by Mitheral at 8:23 PM on October 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Mitheral's comment made me think of this recent story, in which a wealthy guy in Chicago planted hedges on public land to make it seem like it was part of his yard. Beware fake private property.
Also, even if the land in question is privately owned, there can be public easements that cover things like sidewalks, streets, and paths. These are sometimes laid out in the "plat" maps that are put together when an area is first developed. You could make a research project out of this if you had interest.
posted by Mid at 7:26 AM on October 15, 2020
Also, even if the land in question is privately owned, there can be public easements that cover things like sidewalks, streets, and paths. These are sometimes laid out in the "plat" maps that are put together when an area is first developed. You could make a research project out of this if you had interest.
posted by Mid at 7:26 AM on October 15, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
The only thing I'm a little concerned about is that you think he might hit you if he sees you again? That's not okay. I'm not sure if that's just anxiety on your part, or how he acted in this interaction -- but just so you know, it's absolutely not acceptable for someone to physically attack someone else for what is at worst a minor infraction of social norms. That is called assault, and I don't have to be a lawyer to tell you that it's a crime.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:18 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]