What's it like transitioning from Windows to MacOS?
July 29, 2020 8:54 PM Subscribe
I was wondering what people's experiences have been with moving (or attempting to move) from Windows to macOS as an everyday desktop computer driver (and not having to use macOS for some specific job). I don't know if this is clear, but I'm not interested in things like application differences (say, having to use Safari instead of Chrome, or something), but rather the logic of how macOS works and how you interact with it to do the things you want. As background, see below:
I've used Windows (and Linux here and there) all my life. My first smartphone was a Windows phone, in fact. But I've been using an iPhone for three years, and I recently purchased a iPad despite having a Windows 2-in-1 tablet/laptop because I don't like the tablet experience working with Windows. I've been enjoying iOS but it's been a learning experience in how to approach problems. For instance, at least last time I tried, I can't just connect my phone to my desktop, move my .mp3s into some folder on the phone, and pull them up in a player. I think until recently iOS didn't have a file structure, or at least not one readily accessible?
I've used Windows (and Linux here and there) all my life. My first smartphone was a Windows phone, in fact. But I've been using an iPhone for three years, and I recently purchased a iPad despite having a Windows 2-in-1 tablet/laptop because I don't like the tablet experience working with Windows. I've been enjoying iOS but it's been a learning experience in how to approach problems. For instance, at least last time I tried, I can't just connect my phone to my desktop, move my .mp3s into some folder on the phone, and pull them up in a player. I think until recently iOS didn't have a file structure, or at least not one readily accessible?
Can you clarify if you are asking about macOS or iOS?
posted by sixswitch at 9:48 PM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sixswitch at 9:48 PM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
I made the switch almost exactly two years ago - initially just for work, yes, but for various reasons the whole Apple ecosystem has crept into 95% of the rest of my life, invasive species style. I still keep my Windows laptop in case I need to use a specific CAD program or access some old files, but that's about it.
My approach to making the transition has been: instead of trying to work out the low-level mechanics of how you want to do something, think more abstractly about how Apple wants you do something. In my experience, there is a specific way that Apple's designers want you to set up your digital life, and as long as you stick to that everything falls into place. If you wander outside of the box things can get frustrating in unexpected ways. For instance, in your example: you want to play the mp3s that are currently on computer on your phone. Well, the assumption is that you're storing all your music in your Apple Music library, which automatically syncs with your iPhone/iPad. Voilà, problem solved! (Or you can manually drag+drop, but only within theiTunes Music app, and only with files that are already in your library.) Then you can access the music on your phone using the iOS Music app. In general I'd say there's a lot more abstraction of things into specific apps (both Mac and iOS) and having nitty-gritty details hidden away in hard-to-access subfolders.
The whole experience has been not entirely unlike how I'd imagine being assimilated by the Borg would be - instead of making the computer do the thing I want it to do, I change my habits to align with the way the computer wants to do them. The me of a few years ago (who was a Windows power user and also way into Android OS customization) would be appalled with current me but honestly I just don't have as much time or motivation as I used to for fussing around with that kind of stuff. Note that, if it wasn't already abundantly clear, I'm not a Mac power user at all and generally just hang out within Apple's walled garden.
posted by btfreek at 10:07 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
My approach to making the transition has been: instead of trying to work out the low-level mechanics of how you want to do something, think more abstractly about how Apple wants you do something. In my experience, there is a specific way that Apple's designers want you to set up your digital life, and as long as you stick to that everything falls into place. If you wander outside of the box things can get frustrating in unexpected ways. For instance, in your example: you want to play the mp3s that are currently on computer on your phone. Well, the assumption is that you're storing all your music in your Apple Music library, which automatically syncs with your iPhone/iPad. Voilà, problem solved! (Or you can manually drag+drop, but only within the
The whole experience has been not entirely unlike how I'd imagine being assimilated by the Borg would be - instead of making the computer do the thing I want it to do, I change my habits to align with the way the computer wants to do them. The me of a few years ago (who was a Windows power user and also way into Android OS customization) would be appalled with current me but honestly I just don't have as much time or motivation as I used to for fussing around with that kind of stuff. Note that, if it wasn't already abundantly clear, I'm not a Mac power user at all and generally just hang out within Apple's walled garden.
posted by btfreek at 10:07 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
macOS is based in BSD and absolutely has a filé structure, actually a far more logical one than Windows. Also, for a decade at least you can easily connect a phone and organise files by dragging and dropping. Terminal is also much much nicer to work with than Command Prompt or even Power Shell.
The things that irritate me are the kludgey workarounds for remapping keyboard shortcuts and that many many productivity apps are far less powerful.
While there is absolutely no need to use Safari (thank christ), I've not found any version of Finder that's close to being as useable as Explorer. The OS has does not have as good GUI options for hierarchical file browsing and the keyboard is in general not as useful for having powerful shortcuts baked in everywhere. (One issue with both OSes is the shocking lack of a good native tabbed file browser).
Other more obvious issues are window management options (maximise/minimise is logically quite different in macOS) and the location of close buttons. The Dock is also quite a unique factor to macOS and there are a few related display bugs that can be relatively frustrating to work around.
posted by turkeyphant at 10:10 PM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
The things that irritate me are the kludgey workarounds for remapping keyboard shortcuts and that many many productivity apps are far less powerful.
While there is absolutely no need to use Safari (thank christ), I've not found any version of Finder that's close to being as useable as Explorer. The OS has does not have as good GUI options for hierarchical file browsing and the keyboard is in general not as useful for having powerful shortcuts baked in everywhere. (One issue with both OSes is the shocking lack of a good native tabbed file browser).
Other more obvious issues are window management options (maximise/minimise is logically quite different in macOS) and the location of close buttons. The Dock is also quite a unique factor to macOS and there are a few related display bugs that can be relatively frustrating to work around.
posted by turkeyphant at 10:10 PM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I made the switch 13 years ago, but still have to use Windows at work. The biggest differences I recall:
1. Just because you closed all the windows doesn’t mean you’ve quit the program.
2. Installing an application usually means dragging it into the Applications folder Some programs use an installer, but most don’t.
3. Applications are often distributed as disk images, which get mounted into the file system.
4. Having a Unix terminal that’s integral to the OS is nice.
5. I find there’s a lot more automation / shortcutting / tinkering available - AppleScript, Keyboard Maestro, Hazel, Automator.
posted by neilbert at 11:32 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
1. Just because you closed all the windows doesn’t mean you’ve quit the program.
2. Installing an application usually means dragging it into the Applications folder Some programs use an installer, but most don’t.
3. Applications are often distributed as disk images, which get mounted into the file system.
4. Having a Unix terminal that’s integral to the OS is nice.
5. I find there’s a lot more automation / shortcutting / tinkering available - AppleScript, Keyboard Maestro, Hazel, Automator.
posted by neilbert at 11:32 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
The space bar will become your best friend. You use it to preview the current file.
Spotlight (Command+spacebar) searches the entire computer and the web for the text you type or will also you to do a quick calculation. It will become second nature to use it to open a program or a file.
posted by yclipse at 4:18 AM on July 30, 2020
Spotlight (Command+spacebar) searches the entire computer and the web for the text you type or will also you to do a quick calculation. It will become second nature to use it to open a program or a file.
posted by yclipse at 4:18 AM on July 30, 2020
I've been a dual-environment (Windows @ work, Mac @ home) person for years - albeit not really a "power user" and definitely not a coder or programmer - and TBH I don't really find them all that different or have much trouble switching between the two, especially these days.
I'll second the point that iOS (for mobile & iPad) is still a bit different from the desktop/laptop MacOS, so that will be relevant in some situations.
The desktop MacOS definitely has a comprehensible & accessible file structure. (Note: I have a main hard drive icon/shortcut on my Mac desktop, double clicking on this gets you access in a totally "normal" way. I may have had to specifically create this, I honestly don't remember, it's been years.) (Also, IIRC, you actually have more viewing/sorting options in Mac, although maybe I just don't tinker with Windows enough.)
Sometimes things are a little buried a few layers deeper in Mac than in Windows.
Most of my "switching" problems have been with DIY troubleshooting & cleanup. Windows and MacOS are pretty similar on the surface, it's when you dig down underneath a bit (to get rid of some bit of cruft that may be hanging things up) that the differences between them become apparent. Although, knock wood, it's been at least a couple of years since I had to do this, and a quick Google search usually suffices to get me enough info to solve the problem.
things like application differences
IME, this is actually where the hangups happen. It's not that the more-or-less current versions of Windows & MacOS are so drastically different in a basic "open programs, save files, organize files" kind of way, it's that, say, PowerPoint and Keynote are different enough that familiarity with one doesn't really translate to the other. So the learning curve is in the use of programs/applications more than the basic OS.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 AM on July 30, 2020
I'll second the point that iOS (for mobile & iPad) is still a bit different from the desktop/laptop MacOS, so that will be relevant in some situations.
The desktop MacOS definitely has a comprehensible & accessible file structure. (Note: I have a main hard drive icon/shortcut on my Mac desktop, double clicking on this gets you access in a totally "normal" way. I may have had to specifically create this, I honestly don't remember, it's been years.) (Also, IIRC, you actually have more viewing/sorting options in Mac, although maybe I just don't tinker with Windows enough.)
Sometimes things are a little buried a few layers deeper in Mac than in Windows.
Most of my "switching" problems have been with DIY troubleshooting & cleanup. Windows and MacOS are pretty similar on the surface, it's when you dig down underneath a bit (to get rid of some bit of cruft that may be hanging things up) that the differences between them become apparent. Although, knock wood, it's been at least a couple of years since I had to do this, and a quick Google search usually suffices to get me enough info to solve the problem.
things like application differences
IME, this is actually where the hangups happen. It's not that the more-or-less current versions of Windows & MacOS are so drastically different in a basic "open programs, save files, organize files" kind of way, it's that, say, PowerPoint and Keynote are different enough that familiarity with one doesn't really translate to the other. So the learning curve is in the use of programs/applications more than the basic OS.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 AM on July 30, 2020
I really wanted to like OS X because it's got BSD under the hood, but in the end I just couldn't.
Showstoppers for me:
* Apple keyboards: I find that having to use chorded key combinations to achieve PgUp, PgDn, Home, End and Delete equivalents ramps my frustration levels past intolerable remarkably quickly.
* Apple glide pads, touch screens and whatever else they want me to use instead of a two button mouse with a wheel: they just don't like my fingers, and the feeling is mutual. Endless spurious clicks, double-clicks, swipes and assorted other unintended motions make them screamingly frustrating to use, quite apart from never quite knowing whether they emulate multiple buttons properly or are going to force me to hold down the Option key while tapping or some similar insanity to get what I want.
So I basically can't use a Mac for any length of time unless I plug in a PC-style 105-key keyboard and a wheel mouse and turn off unnatural scrolling.
* The global menu bar. My brain refuses to connect it to the front window, and I spend inordinate amounts of time looking for controls that aren't where I expect them to be.
* Likewise, window controls. CANNOT deal with them being on the wrong side. Just NO. And the fact that they're just cutesy coloured lolly-buttons instead of somewhat descriptive symbols doesn't help.
* The Finder. Worst file browser I've ever used. Just ridiculously hard to navigate the file tree with, and it's been getting worse and worse with each OS X release. Design appears to be guided by the same assumptions that made them totally hide the filesystem structure in iOS, which is that users are idiots who can't be trusted to learn what folders are for.
* Having to choose between doing everything Apple's way or fighting really hard to do it mine, which in practice means having to (a) consult Google to find out how to do damn near anything and (b) change annoying numbers of little habits every time they arbitrarily update something.
* Application incompatibility across OS versions. I loathe and detest Windows (Debian is my drug of choice) but this is one thing Microsoft does better than any other vendor and Apple does worse.
Essentially, my experience with OS X has always been that it gives me nothing at all that I can't have more fun and learn more by teaching Debian to do.
posted by flabdablet at 5:16 AM on July 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Showstoppers for me:
* Apple keyboards: I find that having to use chorded key combinations to achieve PgUp, PgDn, Home, End and Delete equivalents ramps my frustration levels past intolerable remarkably quickly.
* Apple glide pads, touch screens and whatever else they want me to use instead of a two button mouse with a wheel: they just don't like my fingers, and the feeling is mutual. Endless spurious clicks, double-clicks, swipes and assorted other unintended motions make them screamingly frustrating to use, quite apart from never quite knowing whether they emulate multiple buttons properly or are going to force me to hold down the Option key while tapping or some similar insanity to get what I want.
So I basically can't use a Mac for any length of time unless I plug in a PC-style 105-key keyboard and a wheel mouse and turn off unnatural scrolling.
* The global menu bar. My brain refuses to connect it to the front window, and I spend inordinate amounts of time looking for controls that aren't where I expect them to be.
* Likewise, window controls. CANNOT deal with them being on the wrong side. Just NO. And the fact that they're just cutesy coloured lolly-buttons instead of somewhat descriptive symbols doesn't help.
* The Finder. Worst file browser I've ever used. Just ridiculously hard to navigate the file tree with, and it's been getting worse and worse with each OS X release. Design appears to be guided by the same assumptions that made them totally hide the filesystem structure in iOS, which is that users are idiots who can't be trusted to learn what folders are for.
* Having to choose between doing everything Apple's way or fighting really hard to do it mine, which in practice means having to (a) consult Google to find out how to do damn near anything and (b) change annoying numbers of little habits every time they arbitrarily update something.
* Application incompatibility across OS versions. I loathe and detest Windows (Debian is my drug of choice) but this is one thing Microsoft does better than any other vendor and Apple does worse.
Essentially, my experience with OS X has always been that it gives me nothing at all that I can't have more fun and learn more by teaching Debian to do.
posted by flabdablet at 5:16 AM on July 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
When you minimise or close one app's window, macOS won't swap to the next-highest app in the stack of windows and you have to click-to-activate the next app.
Get the relevant XCode command-line tools and use Mac Ports to extend the BSD-heritage command line with contemporary tools.
posted by k3ninho at 5:35 AM on July 30, 2020
Get the relevant XCode command-line tools and use Mac Ports to extend the BSD-heritage command line with contemporary tools.
posted by k3ninho at 5:35 AM on July 30, 2020
"Apple keyboards: I find that having to use chorded key combinations to achieve PgUp, PgDn, Home, End and Delete equivalents ramps my frustration levels past intolerable remarkably quickly."
My Apple keyboard has keys for all those functions
"So I basically can't use a Mac for any length of time unless I plug in a PC-style 105-key keyboard and a wheel mouse and turn off unnatural scrolling."
This has nothing to do with the operating system. You can use whatever peripherals you want if you have trouble using the ones Apple supplies.
"The global menu bar. My brain refuses to connect it to the front window, and I spend inordinate amounts of time looking for controls that aren't where I expect them to be."
This, to me, is one of Apple's best features. The menu is always consistently in the same spot.
"Likewise, window controls. CANNOT deal with them being on the wrong side. Just NO. And the fact that they're just cutesy coloured lolly-buttons instead of somewhat descriptive symbols doesn't help."
"Wrong" side is up for debate, of course, because Apple had them on the left long before Windows existed. Regardless, you can make the buttons grey in General preferences under "Accent color". The symbols (very similar to what Windows uses) appear when you hover over them.
"The Finder. Worst file browser I've ever used. Just ridiculously hard to navigate the file tree with, and it's been getting worse and worse with each OS X release. Design appears to be guided by the same assumptions that made them totally hide the filesystem structure in iOS, which is that users are idiots who can't be trusted to learn what folders are for."
I'm completely not sure what you're getting at here. The only hidden folder is the Library folder, which can easily be unhidden. You can Command-click on the name of whatever folder you're in to get a dropdown menu that shows you each enclosing folder. Just move up the menu and you're in that folder. It's very easy.
posted by jonathanhughes at 6:53 AM on July 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
My Apple keyboard has keys for all those functions
"So I basically can't use a Mac for any length of time unless I plug in a PC-style 105-key keyboard and a wheel mouse and turn off unnatural scrolling."
This has nothing to do with the operating system. You can use whatever peripherals you want if you have trouble using the ones Apple supplies.
"The global menu bar. My brain refuses to connect it to the front window, and I spend inordinate amounts of time looking for controls that aren't where I expect them to be."
This, to me, is one of Apple's best features. The menu is always consistently in the same spot.
"Likewise, window controls. CANNOT deal with them being on the wrong side. Just NO. And the fact that they're just cutesy coloured lolly-buttons instead of somewhat descriptive symbols doesn't help."
"Wrong" side is up for debate, of course, because Apple had them on the left long before Windows existed. Regardless, you can make the buttons grey in General preferences under "Accent color". The symbols (very similar to what Windows uses) appear when you hover over them.
"The Finder. Worst file browser I've ever used. Just ridiculously hard to navigate the file tree with, and it's been getting worse and worse with each OS X release. Design appears to be guided by the same assumptions that made them totally hide the filesystem structure in iOS, which is that users are idiots who can't be trusted to learn what folders are for."
I'm completely not sure what you're getting at here. The only hidden folder is the Library folder, which can easily be unhidden. You can Command-click on the name of whatever folder you're in to get a dropdown menu that shows you each enclosing folder. Just move up the menu and you're in that folder. It's very easy.
posted by jonathanhughes at 6:53 AM on July 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'm sure it takes some practice coming from Windows, but in macOS, Command-Space brings up a search bar that, to me, is infinitely faster than manually digging through folder structures. What's important to me is that I can open to the file/application I need, not that I know explicitly where on the hard drive it is.
posted by emelenjr at 8:15 AM on July 30, 2020
posted by emelenjr at 8:15 AM on July 30, 2020
Keyboard shortcuts may be new and different to you, but I've always found Mac shortcuts to be more mnemonic than Windows shortcuts, which used to rely a lot on knowing which arbitrary function key was which. Many Windows shortcuts that used to rely on arbitrary function keys now have mnemonic equivalents, but in the very old days I could never remember Alt-F3 was "find" and F3 was "find next" while Cmd-F and Cmd-G (find again) were right next to each other on the keyboard and logical enough to remember.
Mac shortcuts often have a basic behavior on Cmd-[LETTER], a similar but elevated behavior on Cmd-Shift-[LETTER], and an optional behavior set off with the Option key. For example, in Safari Cmd-N is New Window and Cmd-Shift-N is New Private Window, which is more logical to me than Firefox's Cmd-Shift-P for New Private Window. In Safari Cmd-W closes the current tab, Cmd-Shift-W closes the current window and all its tabs, and Cmd-Option-Shift-W closes all windows and their tabs.
And yeah, if you're used to Ctrl-W quitting an app when you close its last window, the (usual) Mac separation of Cmd-W for window and Cmd-Q for quit might drive you a little crazy. The reverse behavior on Windows can be even more infuriating when a given app takes a really long time to launch. Some newer Mac apps that only exist in a single window and don't really have a multiple-window UI will indeed quit when you close the (one and only) window, but I'm realizing that even now I couldn't tell you which apps do this.
Day to day text input behavior may be the worst thing. If you're used to the Windows behavior of the home and end keys on your keyboard (assuming you have an external keyboard that has them) then the Mac behavior will seem very wrong to you. Same with forward-delete and what the "insert" key does or doesn't do. My usage started with the Mac behaviors of all those keys and the Windows versions seemed merely weird to me, but every person I've known who started with Windows and made heavy use of those text-navigation keys has been really upset by how Macs interpret them.
posted by fedward at 9:04 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Mac shortcuts often have a basic behavior on Cmd-[LETTER], a similar but elevated behavior on Cmd-Shift-[LETTER], and an optional behavior set off with the Option key. For example, in Safari Cmd-N is New Window and Cmd-Shift-N is New Private Window, which is more logical to me than Firefox's Cmd-Shift-P for New Private Window. In Safari Cmd-W closes the current tab, Cmd-Shift-W closes the current window and all its tabs, and Cmd-Option-Shift-W closes all windows and their tabs.
And yeah, if you're used to Ctrl-W quitting an app when you close its last window, the (usual) Mac separation of Cmd-W for window and Cmd-Q for quit might drive you a little crazy. The reverse behavior on Windows can be even more infuriating when a given app takes a really long time to launch. Some newer Mac apps that only exist in a single window and don't really have a multiple-window UI will indeed quit when you close the (one and only) window, but I'm realizing that even now I couldn't tell you which apps do this.
Day to day text input behavior may be the worst thing. If you're used to the Windows behavior of the home and end keys on your keyboard (assuming you have an external keyboard that has them) then the Mac behavior will seem very wrong to you. Same with forward-delete and what the "insert" key does or doesn't do. My usage started with the Mac behaviors of all those keys and the Windows versions seemed merely weird to me, but every person I've known who started with Windows and made heavy use of those text-navigation keys has been really upset by how Macs interpret them.
posted by fedward at 9:04 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
I switched from Windows with an embedded Linux install to MacOS at work about four years ago and still use Windows at home for personal use. I mostly don't notice much of a difference in my normal usage. The big things are:
- Window handling: The expand button on window on a mac does this thing where it makes the application fullscreen in another virtual desktop which is weird until you get used to it. If you just want to do a normal expand you have to do an Option-Click on the expand button.
- Alt-tab switches between applications and not windows. So if you need to switch between say Chrome windows, you need to use alt-~. Also alt tab ignores minimized windows for some reason
- As was said above the menus are at the top of the screen for historical reasons
- I can't really ever remember hot keys so I don't use them. I mean you can tell me what page down is on a MacBook keyboard but I'll have to look that up every time so it's useless to me. I use an external keyboard with pg-up, pg-down, home, etc.
- As was said, Finder is garbage
- Get used to dongles.
posted by octothorpe at 9:11 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
- Window handling: The expand button on window on a mac does this thing where it makes the application fullscreen in another virtual desktop which is weird until you get used to it. If you just want to do a normal expand you have to do an Option-Click on the expand button.
- Alt-tab switches between applications and not windows. So if you need to switch between say Chrome windows, you need to use alt-~. Also alt tab ignores minimized windows for some reason
- As was said above the menus are at the top of the screen for historical reasons
- I can't really ever remember hot keys so I don't use them. I mean you can tell me what page down is on a MacBook keyboard but I'll have to look that up every time so it's useless to me. I use an external keyboard with pg-up, pg-down, home, etc.
- As was said, Finder is garbage
- Get used to dongles.
posted by octothorpe at 9:11 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
I migrated from Windows to MacOS...at least 10 years ago? I got a Mac at home to work on music with, and it slowly just became my daily driver. Then I got a (better) job where I could work on a Mac, and never touched Windows until last year, when I decided to build a box for video streaming.
To answer what seems to be your main concern, MacOS is more like Windows than it is like iOS. There is a file system, you can install and uninstall applications yourself (for the most part), you maximize and minimize windows and move them around... in broad strokes, MacOS is doing the same kinds of things that Windows does, while iOS strips a lot of those things out entirely. Switching a workflow to iOS will often require rethinking how all the data should flow around; that won't happen on MacOS.
The big things that are different are scrolling (MacOS scroll orientation defaults to work the same as iOS fling scrolling; can be turned off), keyboard shortcuts, max/min behavior, the Dock (sort of a task manager-y, thing that sits at the bottom of your screen), the location of the dropdown menus (they're always at the top of the screen), and then all the underlying system details.
All of that will take getting used to. I recommend getting used to anything unfamiliar MacOS throws at you before going in and changing it: the defaults are usually well-considered, and I often finding myself adapting to them and coming to enjoy them. It's always better to go with the flow on Mac if you can, because the system is much more opinionated than Windows.
I obviously love it and still love it: when I went back to Windows, it still did all the annoying things I hated. I spend less time futzing with my Mac than I do my Windows machine, and that's just fine by me.
posted by billjings at 9:12 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
To answer what seems to be your main concern, MacOS is more like Windows than it is like iOS. There is a file system, you can install and uninstall applications yourself (for the most part), you maximize and minimize windows and move them around... in broad strokes, MacOS is doing the same kinds of things that Windows does, while iOS strips a lot of those things out entirely. Switching a workflow to iOS will often require rethinking how all the data should flow around; that won't happen on MacOS.
The big things that are different are scrolling (MacOS scroll orientation defaults to work the same as iOS fling scrolling; can be turned off), keyboard shortcuts, max/min behavior, the Dock (sort of a task manager-y, thing that sits at the bottom of your screen), the location of the dropdown menus (they're always at the top of the screen), and then all the underlying system details.
All of that will take getting used to. I recommend getting used to anything unfamiliar MacOS throws at you before going in and changing it: the defaults are usually well-considered, and I often finding myself adapting to them and coming to enjoy them. It's always better to go with the flow on Mac if you can, because the system is much more opinionated than Windows.
I obviously love it and still love it: when I went back to Windows, it still did all the annoying things I hated. I spend less time futzing with my Mac than I do my Windows machine, and that's just fine by me.
posted by billjings at 9:12 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
The menus are at the top of the screen because of Fitts law, I expect the only reason Microsoft didn't copy that is to avoid another lawsuit.
To fix the Home/End keys to something more sensible you can edit the default keybinding file:
~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict
The worst part of MacOS for me is the removal of the "File, Save As" option, this is to make it appear more like iOS where everything just auto-saves all the time.
The sad result is that now this basic feature has no consistency - some applications (Libre Office) still use 'Save As', others (Pixelmator) use 'File, Export', yet others (iMovie) inexplicably use 'Edit, Share, File'.
posted by Lanark at 9:17 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
To fix the Home/End keys to something more sensible you can edit the default keybinding file:
~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict
The worst part of MacOS for me is the removal of the "File, Save As" option, this is to make it appear more like iOS where everything just auto-saves all the time.
The sad result is that now this basic feature has no consistency - some applications (Libre Office) still use 'Save As', others (Pixelmator) use 'File, Export', yet others (iMovie) inexplicably use 'Edit, Share, File'.
posted by Lanark at 9:17 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've not found any version of Finder that's close to being as useable as Explorer. The OS has does not have as good GUI options for hierarchical file browsing and the keyboard is in general not as useful for having powerful shortcuts baked in everywhere. (One issue with both OSes is the shocking lack of a good native tabbed file browser).This is a very weird thing to say, since:
- There are hierarchical options.
- The file system is precisely as hierarchical as Windows is, and mroe consistent.
- Keyboard shortcuts abound, in my experience. And I say that as an emacs guy loathe to touch the mouse lots of the time.
- Finally, tabbed file browsing is a native part of the Finder.
So, uh, maybe turkeyphant's info isn't especially on point.
flabdablet's complaints about Apple are in general at least unfair and at most either willfully misrepresentative or profoundly uninformed. It comes off more like s/he is just down on Apple, since a number of them don't really have anything to do with OS X itself at all.
For example, keyboard and mouse complaints are not complaints about the OS. Macs support any keyboard or mouse you want, and plenty of folks use non-Mac-specific multibutton mice with wheels. I happen to prefer an Apple mouse, but have used 3rd party mechanical keyboards for 20 years. Moreover, though, it should be noted that the bog-standard Apple keyboard does in fact have buttons for all the things flabdablet says are missing.
It's also really weird for flabdablet to complain about an obfuscated file structure on the Mac when, well, it's precisely as discoverable and browsable as in Windows. I mean, there's no effective difference.
But this is just really bizarre:
My, that's a nice little music collection you've got going there. It would be terrible if something bad were to happen to it, wouldn't it? Here, let me suck it up into the Cloud for you, then delete your copies and give you DRM-saddled replacements. What, you don't have 100% high-speed 24x7 connectivity and now half your stuff won't play any more? Sucks to be you.First, this is a complaint about Apple Music, not OS X. You do not have to use the former to use the latter.
Second, this is a complaint that happened early on with Apple Music -- again, a music subscription service, not a music store -- when people did not read the instructions about what Merge would do.
You don't want to use Apple Music, or you don't want to trust the Matching/Merging behavior? Good news: You don't have to! Keep using whatever you currently use. The local management tools for music on a Mac will no more fuck up your library than WinAmp or any other tool. Your MP3s are safe. Your purchased files from the iTunes Store are safe. (And remember, Apple hasn't sold any music with DRM on it since 2009.)
That said, Apple Music is pretty great (for me, it's a convenience fee -- I still buy CDs since I live somewhere with actual music shops, but I never have to plug in a cable to move the music to my phone anymore). You just need to pay attention to what options you pick. And, as with any large corpus of data you value, take some goddamn backups before you enable a potentially invasive service. Apple's not infallible; software can have bugs. Protect yourself.
One gets the idea that maybe flabdablet is just super down on Apple as a concept. That being the case, maybe s/he should take a pass on "Hey, I got a Mac, can you help" threads, since axe-grindy posts like those supra are more water-muddying than insightful.
posted by uberchet at 9:17 AM on July 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
That problem where Apple Music was preferring DRM versions of songs that were already in your library affected only some users. My own library was never replaced that way. The combination of app behaviors and human interactions that caused the issues was well documented (and easily avoided) shortly after people discovered problems in 2015 and completely resolved by a change in app behavior in 2016. I'll acknowledge that iTunes has emptied out my playlists twice, but it never deleted my music files and the playlists were just metadata that I could restore from backups that iTunes itself kept whenever it upgraded my library.
As with any computer hardware or software, protect yourself from this or any other failure by backing up early and often. That's just as true on Windows.
posted by fedward at 9:23 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
As with any computer hardware or software, protect yourself from this or any other failure by backing up early and often. That's just as true on Windows.
posted by fedward at 9:23 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is because Apple thinks of you as an idiot who will be forever incapable of grasping the idea that a file is best thought of as being stored on a device rather than in an application
Apple doesn't think you're an idiot as much as Apple created a music selling system that actually worked and that people will pay money for. To support that, they kind of have to keep everything within their specific kind of walled garden which means they put hard limits on your ability to access file systems in iOS.
iOS and MacOS are getting more alike but they are still very different. You can jailbreak iOS which will give you more access to things, but it comes with risks.
To me the biggest real difference is that in Windows when you close the last window of an application you usually close the application whereas in MacOS you definitely don't. I am a mostly MacOS user but also use Windows and did make the switch a longer time ago than most.
Apple works with the design principle of "progressive disclosure" which means that the basic/lowest-friction paths are the simplest to find and if you want to do more customization or tweaks you have to dig deeper into the settings. There are some things you can't adjust without dropping into the command line and some things that can't be changed at all. This is good if you just want to do things in an easy way, but if you are someone who is fairly particular (like... some people in this thread) and you're used to being able to customize things more, MacOS won't work for you.
Your Mac will come with more built-in tools that can do the basic things (make a document, make a movie, make a spreadsheet, view and manipulate a PDF) than a Windows machine will. I was comfortable with Unix when I moved to a Mac and so I found the command line stuff not that difficult to deal with.
posted by jessamyn at 10:28 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Apple doesn't think you're an idiot as much as Apple created a music selling system that actually worked and that people will pay money for. To support that, they kind of have to keep everything within their specific kind of walled garden which means they put hard limits on your ability to access file systems in iOS.
iOS and MacOS are getting more alike but they are still very different. You can jailbreak iOS which will give you more access to things, but it comes with risks.
To me the biggest real difference is that in Windows when you close the last window of an application you usually close the application whereas in MacOS you definitely don't. I am a mostly MacOS user but also use Windows and did make the switch a longer time ago than most.
Apple works with the design principle of "progressive disclosure" which means that the basic/lowest-friction paths are the simplest to find and if you want to do more customization or tweaks you have to dig deeper into the settings. There are some things you can't adjust without dropping into the command line and some things that can't be changed at all. This is good if you just want to do things in an easy way, but if you are someone who is fairly particular (like... some people in this thread) and you're used to being able to customize things more, MacOS won't work for you.
Your Mac will come with more built-in tools that can do the basic things (make a document, make a movie, make a spreadsheet, view and manipulate a PDF) than a Windows machine will. I was comfortable with Unix when I moved to a Mac and so I found the command line stuff not that difficult to deal with.
posted by jessamyn at 10:28 AM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
My two cents, as someone who switches between Mac and Windows a ton:
- Mac shortcuts are much easier generally, due to the simple fact that the Command key is much more easily reachable than Ctrl.
- The "Fn" thing on Macbooks is kind of annoying, but you get used to it. Fn+Left/Right are Home/End, Fn+Up/Down are PgUp/PgDn.
- Finder is superior to Explorer (tabs!) but it can be frustrating if you're used to Explorer. Both of them do things that are annoying.
- Spotlight is so great that Microsoft wrote their own version for Windows (it's in PowerToys).
- Having a Unix shell is really nice as a developer, but now Windows has WSL which is basically the same thing (although less integrated into the OS).
- There's no good MP3 player for Mac. There's Clementine which I like on Windows but the Mac version is awful and uses a ton of CPU. I often end up just using VLC.
- There are lots of little annoyances that niche developers have made utilities for. Bartender, Spectacle, SteerMouse, etc. They're not free.
- Oh my God speaking of SteerMouse the way MacOS handles mice is super annoying. The scrollwheel behavior is backwards (and it accelerates for some reason), and there's no way to swap it without also messing up your trackpad behavior. SteerMouse handles this nicely, which is why I almost forgot.
- There's no easy way to maximize a window on MacOS. I use Spectacle for this. You can option-click the green "+" button but this behavior isn't consistent between Mac apps.
posted by neckro23 at 10:33 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
- Mac shortcuts are much easier generally, due to the simple fact that the Command key is much more easily reachable than Ctrl.
- The "Fn" thing on Macbooks is kind of annoying, but you get used to it. Fn+Left/Right are Home/End, Fn+Up/Down are PgUp/PgDn.
- Finder is superior to Explorer (tabs!) but it can be frustrating if you're used to Explorer. Both of them do things that are annoying.
- Spotlight is so great that Microsoft wrote their own version for Windows (it's in PowerToys).
- Having a Unix shell is really nice as a developer, but now Windows has WSL which is basically the same thing (although less integrated into the OS).
- There's no good MP3 player for Mac. There's Clementine which I like on Windows but the Mac version is awful and uses a ton of CPU. I often end up just using VLC.
- There are lots of little annoyances that niche developers have made utilities for. Bartender, Spectacle, SteerMouse, etc. They're not free.
- Oh my God speaking of SteerMouse the way MacOS handles mice is super annoying. The scrollwheel behavior is backwards (and it accelerates for some reason), and there's no way to swap it without also messing up your trackpad behavior. SteerMouse handles this nicely, which is why I almost forgot.
- There's no easy way to maximize a window on MacOS. I use Spectacle for this. You can option-click the green "+" button but this behavior isn't consistent between Mac apps.
posted by neckro23 at 10:33 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
I switched in law school, when my options were to "upgrade" to vista or switch to mac. It's honestly been really easy, and every time I've had a problem it's because I was used to how badly designed Windows is and was overthinking it. Macs are better designed, period, and I've never had the kind of trouble with malware on a Mac that I used to have constantly on a Windows machine.
The downside is that there are a lot of games (still!) that are Windows-only.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:37 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
The downside is that there are a lot of games (still!) that are Windows-only.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:37 AM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
You probably already have an iCloud account since you have an iPhone, but linking up that account on the Mac opens up a lot of features that come from your mobile and desktop hardware being in the same ecosystem. A few examples:
- Handoff makes it easy to continue tasks from one device onto another. For example, you're viewing a web page on your phone and want to switch to the desktop.
- Sharing files between devices is easy with Airdrop and all your desktop and Documents files are available on all your iOS devices via the Files app.
- Messaging and communications are streamlined. The Messages/Facetime apps on your Mac duplicate the ones on your phone. Phone calls that come to your phone can also come to your Mac and be answered on the Mac.
- If you're 'all in' on Apple hardware, then using Apple for password management is dead simple. Logging in with Apple works across hardware and authenticating with TouchID on the Mac is easy, even if you choose to use a 3rd party password manager like 1Password.
posted by homesickness at 10:53 AM on July 30, 2020
- Handoff makes it easy to continue tasks from one device onto another. For example, you're viewing a web page on your phone and want to switch to the desktop.
- Sharing files between devices is easy with Airdrop and all your desktop and Documents files are available on all your iOS devices via the Files app.
- Messaging and communications are streamlined. The Messages/Facetime apps on your Mac duplicate the ones on your phone. Phone calls that come to your phone can also come to your Mac and be answered on the Mac.
- If you're 'all in' on Apple hardware, then using Apple for password management is dead simple. Logging in with Apple works across hardware and authenticating with TouchID on the Mac is easy, even if you choose to use a 3rd party password manager like 1Password.
posted by homesickness at 10:53 AM on July 30, 2020
I have to switch between the platforms regularly.
- There's no Add/Remove Programs in MacOS. For most apps, you drag the app from the Applications folder to the trash. Just like Windows, it often leaves a lot of stuff behind.
- Especially with the newer versions of MacOS, there are increasing numbers of features adopted from iOS, like Launchpad, Force Touch, and the Touch Bar. These are mostly ignored by the long-time Mac users, who already have their existing workflows and tools; poorly adopted by application developers, because they often rely on brand-new hardware features or operating systems; but Apple will push them as the latest and greatest to new users, who don't know better. You should have caution adopting these features.
- Window management in MacOS seems to be moving towards iOS-levels of window management, which is the wrong direction and worse than any version of Windows I've used. If you're used to working with huge monitors and/or have a lot of small tiled windows, you'll need a third-party app like Magnet that manages the sizes and placement.
- Upgrading Mac hardware is generally impossible, so if you love your Mac, you should expect that you'll be buying something completely brand new in six or so years when Apple classifies your hardware as vintage and unsupported.
- There aren't a ton of settings in MacOS. For example, in Windows you can change the behavior of your power button or closing the lid of your laptop to be sleep/hibernate/power off/nothing. In MacOS you can't easily customize any of these things. But many people (including myself) would prefer consistent but incorrect behavior over the correct behavior that works inconsistently.
As a side note, the problems with iTunes are caused by it being written almost twenty years ago, in an era where all the music companies were terrified of people stealing all their music and streaming wasn't a thing, so there were all kinds of restrictions on how to copy music and such that made it super hard and annoying. In 2020, the number of people who load music on their phones is a small minority (everyone just streams music, and Apple has their own music service they want to sell) so I wouldn't expect making copying MP3s to be at the top of Apple's (or anyone's) feature list.
posted by meowzilla at 11:32 AM on July 30, 2020
- There's no Add/Remove Programs in MacOS. For most apps, you drag the app from the Applications folder to the trash. Just like Windows, it often leaves a lot of stuff behind.
- Especially with the newer versions of MacOS, there are increasing numbers of features adopted from iOS, like Launchpad, Force Touch, and the Touch Bar. These are mostly ignored by the long-time Mac users, who already have their existing workflows and tools; poorly adopted by application developers, because they often rely on brand-new hardware features or operating systems; but Apple will push them as the latest and greatest to new users, who don't know better. You should have caution adopting these features.
- Window management in MacOS seems to be moving towards iOS-levels of window management, which is the wrong direction and worse than any version of Windows I've used. If you're used to working with huge monitors and/or have a lot of small tiled windows, you'll need a third-party app like Magnet that manages the sizes and placement.
- Upgrading Mac hardware is generally impossible, so if you love your Mac, you should expect that you'll be buying something completely brand new in six or so years when Apple classifies your hardware as vintage and unsupported.
- There aren't a ton of settings in MacOS. For example, in Windows you can change the behavior of your power button or closing the lid of your laptop to be sleep/hibernate/power off/nothing. In MacOS you can't easily customize any of these things. But many people (including myself) would prefer consistent but incorrect behavior over the correct behavior that works inconsistently.
As a side note, the problems with iTunes are caused by it being written almost twenty years ago, in an era where all the music companies were terrified of people stealing all their music and streaming wasn't a thing, so there were all kinds of restrictions on how to copy music and such that made it super hard and annoying. In 2020, the number of people who load music on their phones is a small minority (everyone just streams music, and Apple has their own music service they want to sell) so I wouldn't expect making copying MP3s to be at the top of Apple's (or anyone's) feature list.
posted by meowzilla at 11:32 AM on July 30, 2020
Just like Windows, it often leaves a lot of stuff behind.
It does? Aside from a stray preference file I don't know that I've ever found significant detritus from a Mac app removed in that way.
[iOS features]
I occasionally use Force Touch on purpose on my Macs (to pop up the dictionary) but while I have an iPhone with 3D Touch capability the iOS feature set conceived around it has been abandoned. I don't have a touch bar equipped Mac and have no current plans to buy one, though. But yeah, many of these features are hard to catch onto if you already have habits, and some of them never take off at all.
Window management
I 100% don't understand this paragraph and neither does my 27" iMac with a second 27" screen. I happily lived with an 11" MacBook Air and did, basically, treat every app like a full screen app, but macOS isn't forcing you to do that at all. You can even use what Apple calls Split View to do full screen mode with two apps up at once. Some window management tricks are more useful if you have a touch pad, but you can swipe around on top of the Magic Mouse if that's your thing.
Upgrading Mac hardware is generally impossible
This depends on the hardware. You can't upgrade a MacBook Pro. I've upgraded RAM and storage in a couple Mac mini models, but the newest model has integrated storage so for upgrades you're limited to RAM (but that process doesn't look too bad). You can easily install new RAM in a 27" iMac, through an external latch. With difficulty (removing the screen, which you will then have to reattach at the end) you can upgrade the storage in a 27" iMac or the RAM and/or storage in a 21.5" iMac. I would not describe that state of affairs as "generally impossible."
In conclusion, they're good computers, but so are lots of other computers. If Macs do what you want in a way that doesn't annoy you, buy a Mac. If they don't, buy something else.
posted by fedward at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2020
It does? Aside from a stray preference file I don't know that I've ever found significant detritus from a Mac app removed in that way.
[iOS features]
I occasionally use Force Touch on purpose on my Macs (to pop up the dictionary) but while I have an iPhone with 3D Touch capability the iOS feature set conceived around it has been abandoned. I don't have a touch bar equipped Mac and have no current plans to buy one, though. But yeah, many of these features are hard to catch onto if you already have habits, and some of them never take off at all.
Window management
I 100% don't understand this paragraph and neither does my 27" iMac with a second 27" screen. I happily lived with an 11" MacBook Air and did, basically, treat every app like a full screen app, but macOS isn't forcing you to do that at all. You can even use what Apple calls Split View to do full screen mode with two apps up at once. Some window management tricks are more useful if you have a touch pad, but you can swipe around on top of the Magic Mouse if that's your thing.
Upgrading Mac hardware is generally impossible
This depends on the hardware. You can't upgrade a MacBook Pro. I've upgraded RAM and storage in a couple Mac mini models, but the newest model has integrated storage so for upgrades you're limited to RAM (but that process doesn't look too bad). You can easily install new RAM in a 27" iMac, through an external latch. With difficulty (removing the screen, which you will then have to reattach at the end) you can upgrade the storage in a 27" iMac or the RAM and/or storage in a 21.5" iMac. I would not describe that state of affairs as "generally impossible."
In conclusion, they're good computers, but so are lots of other computers. If Macs do what you want in a way that doesn't annoy you, buy a Mac. If they don't, buy something else.
posted by fedward at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2020
Yeah, 99% of Mac programs leave nothing behind except some text files used to store preferences (well, that and user data that's inside your user folder).
In point of fact they DO NOT leave behind binaries that are the source of so much cruft and instability (and bloat) under Windows. The Mac just does things differently here (just as there's no Registry database to accumulate cruft and bloat).
Let me say this super loud: As a result of this, you absolutely do not need some app cleaning tool for a Mac. In fact, you should avoid these things like the plague because LOTS of malware masquerades as these sorts of tools. You just don't need it. Skip it.
(Remember that Macs today run on a completely different operating system than they did pre-2001 or so. Windows is still evolving off the corpse of Win 3.1 in places. This switch was only possible because of the VERY different market position Apple had (owning the hardware AND the software) vs. Microsoft, but it's resulted in a competitive advantage in terms of overall consistency and stability.)
posted by uberchet at 1:11 PM on July 30, 2020
In point of fact they DO NOT leave behind binaries that are the source of so much cruft and instability (and bloat) under Windows. The Mac just does things differently here (just as there's no Registry database to accumulate cruft and bloat).
Let me say this super loud: As a result of this, you absolutely do not need some app cleaning tool for a Mac. In fact, you should avoid these things like the plague because LOTS of malware masquerades as these sorts of tools. You just don't need it. Skip it.
(Remember that Macs today run on a completely different operating system than they did pre-2001 or so. Windows is still evolving off the corpse of Win 3.1 in places. This switch was only possible because of the VERY different market position Apple had (owning the hardware AND the software) vs. Microsoft, but it's resulted in a competitive advantage in terms of overall consistency and stability.)
posted by uberchet at 1:11 PM on July 30, 2020
You can even use what Apple calls Split View to do full screen mode with two apps up at once
Which is exactly the kind of strange MacOS behavior that I'm talking about regarding window management, and something that I had to teach myself never to use because Windows does it so differently. (Also I started using Macs when Split View didn't exist, and full screen mode disabled your second monitor)
In Windows, maximizing a window just means it fills the screen. Your start menu and title bar is still there. Alt-tabbing will bring up another application, but it will just sit on top of the maximized app. The app is just... bigger.
In MacOS, full-screen mode creates another virtual desktop (Apple calls them "Spaces"). Your dock and title bar disappear. If you alt-tab, it throws you into the other desktop where you can't find the window that you made, because it's on another Space. You can't resize a full-screen application unless you un-full-screen it first (by waving your mouse over the top of the screen, but the menu is hidden) which throws it back into your previous Space. I've seen more than one person confused because they can't get out of full-screen mode on a Mac.
For as long as I remember, Windows has an option to tile or cascade all open application windows (more than two!) by right-clicking on the Start Menu. For a decade, Windows has Aero Snap - drag a window to the right or left edge of your screen and it will automatically resize itself to half the monitor. It doesn't create new Spaces or anything, the behavior is just that it resizes and everything else is the same.
posted by meowzilla at 1:53 PM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Which is exactly the kind of strange MacOS behavior that I'm talking about regarding window management, and something that I had to teach myself never to use because Windows does it so differently. (Also I started using Macs when Split View didn't exist, and full screen mode disabled your second monitor)
In Windows, maximizing a window just means it fills the screen. Your start menu and title bar is still there. Alt-tabbing will bring up another application, but it will just sit on top of the maximized app. The app is just... bigger.
In MacOS, full-screen mode creates another virtual desktop (Apple calls them "Spaces"). Your dock and title bar disappear. If you alt-tab, it throws you into the other desktop where you can't find the window that you made, because it's on another Space. You can't resize a full-screen application unless you un-full-screen it first (by waving your mouse over the top of the screen, but the menu is hidden) which throws it back into your previous Space. I've seen more than one person confused because they can't get out of full-screen mode on a Mac.
For as long as I remember, Windows has an option to tile or cascade all open application windows (more than two!) by right-clicking on the Start Menu. For a decade, Windows has Aero Snap - drag a window to the right or left edge of your screen and it will automatically resize itself to half the monitor. It doesn't create new Spaces or anything, the behavior is just that it resizes and everything else is the same.
posted by meowzilla at 1:53 PM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
In terms of Window management, the Mac has something that they used to call "Exposé" but is not part of the Mission Control feature.
You control how it's invoked; I use it like this:
* If I put my mouse in the upper-right corner, the display changes to show only smaller (but still readible) versions of all the windows of the current application (e.g., all my Safari windows). I use this A LOT.
* If I use the lower-right corner instead, it's shows instead all the open apps with their windows (it present each running app as a stack of windows, making it easy to directly select the one you want). I use this less often, but still often enough that it's bound to a hot corner.
This turns out to be WAY more useful than just cascading all the current windows or whatever.
I very very rarely use full-screen mode in ANYTHING on my Mac, but this is probably because I mostly use a 27" display.
posted by uberchet at 2:15 PM on July 30, 2020
You control how it's invoked; I use it like this:
* If I put my mouse in the upper-right corner, the display changes to show only smaller (but still readible) versions of all the windows of the current application (e.g., all my Safari windows). I use this A LOT.
* If I use the lower-right corner instead, it's shows instead all the open apps with their windows (it present each running app as a stack of windows, making it easy to directly select the one you want). I use this less often, but still often enough that it's bound to a hot corner.
This turns out to be WAY more useful than just cascading all the current windows or whatever.
I very very rarely use full-screen mode in ANYTHING on my Mac, but this is probably because I mostly use a 27" display.
posted by uberchet at 2:15 PM on July 30, 2020
This is a very weird thing to say, since:
- There are hierarchical options.
- The file system is precisely as hierarchical as Windows is, and mroe consistent.
- Keyboard shortcuts abound, in my experience. And I say that as an emacs guy loathe to touch the mouse lots of the time.
- Finally, tabbed file browsing is a native part of the Finder.
Just to respond to this.
- the hierarchical options exist but not having a separate folders pane quickly becomes unwieldy. As does the inability to have separate directories from files and the difficulty to enable sane sorting options.
- agree that it's more consistent.
- default keyboard shortcuts are minimal. For every popup menu it seems that you have to use the mouse just to press things like "Cancel" or "Yes"/"No". Renaming/entering folders in Finder is very strange to me and rarely works even after remapping. Opening app menus with keyboard is also less supported.
- I said "a good native tabbed browser" the default tabs in Finder are heinous and are in an odd place and the rest of it is a car crash.
I do like the top-of-screen menu on macs. And have been using third party Alfred and space-preview alternatives on Windows for years as this is much preferable behaviour on macOS. But Window management still definitely leaves a lot to be desired.
The observations about program installation and closing the last window are good ones.
There are much fewer little tools to fix minor annoyances/tweaks or enable huge productivity advantages on macOS.
posted by turkeyphant at 4:52 PM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
- There are hierarchical options.
- The file system is precisely as hierarchical as Windows is, and mroe consistent.
- Keyboard shortcuts abound, in my experience. And I say that as an emacs guy loathe to touch the mouse lots of the time.
- Finally, tabbed file browsing is a native part of the Finder.
Just to respond to this.
- the hierarchical options exist but not having a separate folders pane quickly becomes unwieldy. As does the inability to have separate directories from files and the difficulty to enable sane sorting options.
- agree that it's more consistent.
- default keyboard shortcuts are minimal. For every popup menu it seems that you have to use the mouse just to press things like "Cancel" or "Yes"/"No". Renaming/entering folders in Finder is very strange to me and rarely works even after remapping. Opening app menus with keyboard is also less supported.
- I said "a good native tabbed browser" the default tabs in Finder are heinous and are in an odd place and the rest of it is a car crash.
I do like the top-of-screen menu on macs. And have been using third party Alfred and space-preview alternatives on Windows for years as this is much preferable behaviour on macOS. But Window management still definitely leaves a lot to be desired.
The observations about program installation and closing the last window are good ones.
There are much fewer little tools to fix minor annoyances/tweaks or enable huge productivity advantages on macOS.
posted by turkeyphant at 4:52 PM on July 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I appreciate all the posts, they've been helpful and given me further avenues to look into. Since I've enjoyed my iPhone and recently purchased an iPad, I wondered whether I should get into macOS. I didn't know, as one commentator pointed out, that running iOS and macOS together offers some benefits.
I'm intrigued by Apple's design philosophy, but not sure whether it's for me. If it weren't for the compatibility issues and overall hackiness of it, I would run Linux or BSD full-time as I love the ability to precisely control how my windows behave and every other aspect of my system. But perhaps it makes better since to adopt to a(n allegedly) cohesive workflow designed by people smarter than me.
posted by TheLinenLenin at 6:18 PM on July 30, 2020
I'm intrigued by Apple's design philosophy, but not sure whether it's for me. If it weren't for the compatibility issues and overall hackiness of it, I would run Linux or BSD full-time as I love the ability to precisely control how my windows behave and every other aspect of my system. But perhaps it makes better since to adopt to a(n allegedly) cohesive workflow designed by people smarter than me.
posted by TheLinenLenin at 6:18 PM on July 30, 2020
The biggest things I had to get used to were:
- As mentioned before, closing the last window and closing the app itself are two different things
- When you mount a disk image to install something - which, as also mentioned above, is how many things are packaged - you need to manually eject it.
- Trackpads behave completely different. This is actually a good thing, as once I adjusted, I've found them to be a delightful input device, whereas I hated them with a passion in windows. If you learn the gestures (and enable some of the non-default gestures) you will find them to be incredibly useful.
I made the switch YEARS ago, and I recently tried to run Windows 10, and I found it to be a maddening experience for all sorts of little things (Why is this so cluttered? Why the hell is it showing me ads and trying to sell me stuff in the start menu. But they are all things I could adjust or get used to, and fundamentally they both deliver what operating systems are supposed to deliver. I've just found that for how I like to work these days, I really just want the OS to get out of my way, and apple has generally delivered. Some of that has involved me adjusting to the apple way of doing things, but there are some things for my workflow that I can't imagine not having at this point - For example, expose is really awesome if you run a lot of applications, and you can bind it to sensible gestures. I personally like their virtual desktop for the same reason - the gestures to move from one to the other really make sense. Time machine is incredible and just works as far as backup goes. And I've been able to do seamless upgrades and bring my profile from one computer to another for 12 years, I think, without any major issues. Really, it meets the goal of getting out of my way. It's not perfect, there have been some rare minor issues, but no OS is perfect.
Some other thoughts:
The major OS updates will often break specialty hardware, but outside of that, they have generally gone very smoothly, and I've never had one make my device unusable.
The touchbar is something I haven't found particularly useful, mostly because I often activate it by accident.
And the hardware is expensive, but I've found that I can run it for a very long time. I used my 2008 macbook pro for 10 years (granted, the last couple of years required patience). I'm close to 6 years on my iMac, and it's still going strong. I do wish that the more recently released hardware was more upgradeable, so I'm not sure if I'll get as much life out of it, but it seems to be the direction that most non-desktop computers are going.
Oh, and the only thing that I need dongles for are devices that had a built in USB connector - mice and flash drives being the biggest offenders. For most of my hardware (and I use a ton of USB hardware) it's been a matter of buying the appropriate USB-to-whatever cable. It hasn't presented a large problem in practice.
posted by MysticMCJ at 8:15 PM on July 30, 2020
- As mentioned before, closing the last window and closing the app itself are two different things
- When you mount a disk image to install something - which, as also mentioned above, is how many things are packaged - you need to manually eject it.
- Trackpads behave completely different. This is actually a good thing, as once I adjusted, I've found them to be a delightful input device, whereas I hated them with a passion in windows. If you learn the gestures (and enable some of the non-default gestures) you will find them to be incredibly useful.
I made the switch YEARS ago, and I recently tried to run Windows 10, and I found it to be a maddening experience for all sorts of little things (Why is this so cluttered? Why the hell is it showing me ads and trying to sell me stuff in the start menu. But they are all things I could adjust or get used to, and fundamentally they both deliver what operating systems are supposed to deliver. I've just found that for how I like to work these days, I really just want the OS to get out of my way, and apple has generally delivered. Some of that has involved me adjusting to the apple way of doing things, but there are some things for my workflow that I can't imagine not having at this point - For example, expose is really awesome if you run a lot of applications, and you can bind it to sensible gestures. I personally like their virtual desktop for the same reason - the gestures to move from one to the other really make sense. Time machine is incredible and just works as far as backup goes. And I've been able to do seamless upgrades and bring my profile from one computer to another for 12 years, I think, without any major issues. Really, it meets the goal of getting out of my way. It's not perfect, there have been some rare minor issues, but no OS is perfect.
Some other thoughts:
The major OS updates will often break specialty hardware, but outside of that, they have generally gone very smoothly, and I've never had one make my device unusable.
The touchbar is something I haven't found particularly useful, mostly because I often activate it by accident.
And the hardware is expensive, but I've found that I can run it for a very long time. I used my 2008 macbook pro for 10 years (granted, the last couple of years required patience). I'm close to 6 years on my iMac, and it's still going strong. I do wish that the more recently released hardware was more upgradeable, so I'm not sure if I'll get as much life out of it, but it seems to be the direction that most non-desktop computers are going.
Oh, and the only thing that I need dongles for are devices that had a built in USB connector - mice and flash drives being the biggest offenders. For most of my hardware (and I use a ton of USB hardware) it's been a matter of buying the appropriate USB-to-whatever cable. It hasn't presented a large problem in practice.
posted by MysticMCJ at 8:15 PM on July 30, 2020
- the hierarchical options exist but not having a separate folders pane quickly becomes unwieldy. As does the inability to have separate directories from files and the difficulty to enable sane sorting options.I'm still not at all sure what you mean. I use both daily, and find WinExp clumsy and maddening (esp since it shows you things that aren't actually there in many contexts). I sure don't have an issue with sorting options on the Mac, and file search is WAY better on the Mac side.
default tabs in Finder are heinous...no true scotsman...
Seriously, if you're that hacked off / personally incompatible with Finder, then you might enjoy a tool called Pathfinder. It's pretty powerful and flexible, and I made heavy use of it in years past. I generally find the Finder capable enough, though; it's been long enough since I used Pathfinder (years and years) that I ended up just deleting it instead of paying to update it for Catalina.
But it's a good tool, and if the Finder makes you crazy it might be worth looking into for you. Looks like they have a 60 day trial deal going on now.
There are much fewer little tools to fix minor annoyances/tweaks or enable huge productivity advantages on macOS.Perhaps because, in a well-designed system, they aren't as needed. (g,d,r)
TheLinenLenin (great name, btw): I truly believe that if Apple hadn't gone to a BSD-based system when they did, desktop Linux would've gone farther faster. As it is, you have a drastically smoother experience with MacOS (you can run native Microsoft Office, for example, complete with access to VBA) while still being a click away from a bash shell. That's powerful.
You definitely give up the "tweak everything" ability that's key to Linux, and in some ways more present under Windows, but the saner default behaviors make this less painful **unless** you have well-developed idiosyncratic preferences. (This last caveat is why the move to full-time Linux is pretty often a one-way path, I suspect.)
I'll echo MysticMCJ's comment on dongles. I have a COUPLE -- my Mac is a 2019 Macbook Pro, so it's USB-C only -- but because at my desk it's plugged into a Thunderbolt Display, they only come out for special occasions (mostly travel).
If you mostly work with a laptop, and mostly work at your desk, then some sort of port aggregator is a real boon to neatness and ease of use, even aside from the USB-C vs USB-A issue. I mean, that's one reason I bought the Thunderbolt Display in the first place -- when I got it, my laptop had a fuller complement of ports, but the TBD was still a great addition because it meant I only had to manage one connection ot the actual laptop.
TBH, the connection change that bothers me MORE is the loss of the SD slot. :(
posted by uberchet at 6:22 AM on July 31, 2020
It took me like 2 or 3 years to fully get used to Mac keyboards. True, the hotkeys are different — but that wasn’t the hardest part. The “default” Mac keyboards (the ones made by Apple) tend to be really shallow. Like, how “deep” the key pushes down when you press it. Also I think the keys themselves are closer together. Anyways, this drove me crazy for years until I got used to it. I would like “overtype” and hit extra keys. Of course, I’ve never heard anyone but me talk about this, so maybe I’m just weird.
So I guess if you wanted to ease the transition, you could buy a third-party keyboard with deeper keys. You can even remap the hotkeys, but I don’t recommend that - it’s a pain in the butt, and for some reason not all apps respect your settings.
I will say, though, that it’s worth it. Macs are based on Unix, which is a much more sensible operating system. Windows has gotten better over the years, but from what I recall, anything that involves a deviation from the norm requires a lot of hacking (e.g. editing the registry, caring about drivers, etc.) Also I wouldn’t even consider developing software on a Windows box unless I was developing software FOR Windows.
Macs are more expensive, and your options for peripherals are a bit more limited. That’s the only major downside, in my opinion.
posted by panama joe at 8:55 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
So I guess if you wanted to ease the transition, you could buy a third-party keyboard with deeper keys. You can even remap the hotkeys, but I don’t recommend that - it’s a pain in the butt, and for some reason not all apps respect your settings.
I will say, though, that it’s worth it. Macs are based on Unix, which is a much more sensible operating system. Windows has gotten better over the years, but from what I recall, anything that involves a deviation from the norm requires a lot of hacking (e.g. editing the registry, caring about drivers, etc.) Also I wouldn’t even consider developing software on a Windows box unless I was developing software FOR Windows.
Macs are more expensive, and your options for peripherals are a bit more limited. That’s the only major downside, in my opinion.
posted by panama joe at 8:55 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Another thing I'd say to the OP : it's possible you're overthinking this
Once upon a time, "PC vs Mac" was a big decision, and very fraught. Any conversation that would touch on this topic had a high probability of going ballistic -- much in the same way political conversations do now. To get some idea, observe the passion some in this thread have applied to defending their OS choice, and multiply that by 1000. That's what the early 2000s were like.
The "PC vs Mac" debate has been defanged, largely because so much of what we do now resides on the web or on our phones. That's why most of the points in this thread are minor quibbles over UI elements or keyboard shortcuts. Unless you fall into certain use-cases that would dictate your choice (gaming, film or music production, software development, etc.), it really is a matter of preference. For all intents and purposes, you can do all the same things on both platforms. It wasn't always this way.
So I would say the three factors you should consider would be :
* Use-case -- does your hobby or industry "live" on one platform and not the other?
* Budget -- Macs are more expensive, peripheral choice is sometimes limited (but not hugely so)
* Personal preference -- totally subjective!
posted by panama joe at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Once upon a time, "PC vs Mac" was a big decision, and very fraught. Any conversation that would touch on this topic had a high probability of going ballistic -- much in the same way political conversations do now. To get some idea, observe the passion some in this thread have applied to defending their OS choice, and multiply that by 1000. That's what the early 2000s were like.
The "PC vs Mac" debate has been defanged, largely because so much of what we do now resides on the web or on our phones. That's why most of the points in this thread are minor quibbles over UI elements or keyboard shortcuts. Unless you fall into certain use-cases that would dictate your choice (gaming, film or music production, software development, etc.), it really is a matter of preference. For all intents and purposes, you can do all the same things on both platforms. It wasn't always this way.
So I would say the three factors you should consider would be :
* Use-case -- does your hobby or industry "live" on one platform and not the other?
* Budget -- Macs are more expensive, peripheral choice is sometimes limited (but not hugely so)
* Personal preference -- totally subjective!
posted by panama joe at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by anadem at 9:36 PM on July 29, 2020