COVID-19 gathering
March 19, 2020 8:52 AM Subscribe
How bad is it really for 2-4 non-symptomatic otherwise healthy people to sit outside with lots of space between them?
I have been social distancing myself for a week now. I have access to a private roof-deck and would like to invite a couple friends over to hang out, sitting far apart from each other, for a couple hours tomorrow. With the following precautions, what is the actual risk?
*Everyone must be symptom free.
*Everyone must arrive by foot only (I live in Brooklyn and the invitees are near enough to walk, and everyone has been practicing social distancing/wfh for at least the last week).
*We will remove shoes at the door and immediately wash hands upon entering. (Roof deck must be accessed through apartment)
*I will disinfect all surfaces and door handles before anyone arrives and after everyone leaves.
*Drinks will be poured into disposable cups.
*No food will be provided/shared.
*We will all sit at least six feet away from each other.
These are very close friends I'm inviting, who are enthused about coming over, and I trust that they would not lie to me about symptoms or exposure and would do everything in their power to maintain safe practices. We are all in our thirties, healthy/not immunocompromised in any way. No one has contact with any elderly people, children, or otherwise ill people. We are all cognizant of the risks, not downplaying this at all, and have been following best practices for as long as this is been in New York. We aren't scared of catching it as much as we want to be cautious of not spreading it.
So is this the worst thing in the whole world? Am I a terrible human for wanting actual face-to-face contact? Is this any different than just meeting up in a park, which still seems to not be a social sin? Another friend who has no interest in coming is treating me like if I have this get-together I will personally be responsible if her elderly parents a state away catch the virus.
Happy to look at articles backing up what is or isn't okay and why. Thanks!
I have been social distancing myself for a week now. I have access to a private roof-deck and would like to invite a couple friends over to hang out, sitting far apart from each other, for a couple hours tomorrow. With the following precautions, what is the actual risk?
*Everyone must be symptom free.
*Everyone must arrive by foot only (I live in Brooklyn and the invitees are near enough to walk, and everyone has been practicing social distancing/wfh for at least the last week).
*We will remove shoes at the door and immediately wash hands upon entering. (Roof deck must be accessed through apartment)
*I will disinfect all surfaces and door handles before anyone arrives and after everyone leaves.
*Drinks will be poured into disposable cups.
*No food will be provided/shared.
*We will all sit at least six feet away from each other.
These are very close friends I'm inviting, who are enthused about coming over, and I trust that they would not lie to me about symptoms or exposure and would do everything in their power to maintain safe practices. We are all in our thirties, healthy/not immunocompromised in any way. No one has contact with any elderly people, children, or otherwise ill people. We are all cognizant of the risks, not downplaying this at all, and have been following best practices for as long as this is been in New York. We aren't scared of catching it as much as we want to be cautious of not spreading it.
So is this the worst thing in the whole world? Am I a terrible human for wanting actual face-to-face contact? Is this any different than just meeting up in a park, which still seems to not be a social sin? Another friend who has no interest in coming is treating me like if I have this get-together I will personally be responsible if her elderly parents a state away catch the virus.
Happy to look at articles backing up what is or isn't okay and why. Thanks!
A piece of data to add to the considerations: 17.9% of people with Covid-19 coronavirus have no symptoms.
You're not terrible for wanting this and I think your plan sounds ok... But: the thing is you can't control is who your friends will go on to interact with. It's slightly flawed to think that just because they don't personally interact with any people in vulnerable groups that they couldn't still be vectors for infection to those groups if they contracted the virus at your meeting, not with the R0 being so high.
More data: the virus has been spread between people on a bus who were 4.5 metres away (nearly 15 feet). I would think that sitting that far away from each other would negate the plan for socialising.
I think I would maybe do this after everyone has done a full 14 day self-isolation to be sure they aren't in the incubation phase or likely to be asymptomatic spreaders. I think giving the severity of the situation and how long it is likely to last, observing a strict 14 day isolation before attempting small gatherings is a reasonable compromise.
It would be really great if everyone could be tested so those that only need to isolate do so, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Balthamos at 9:04 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
You're not terrible for wanting this and I think your plan sounds ok... But: the thing is you can't control is who your friends will go on to interact with. It's slightly flawed to think that just because they don't personally interact with any people in vulnerable groups that they couldn't still be vectors for infection to those groups if they contracted the virus at your meeting, not with the R0 being so high.
More data: the virus has been spread between people on a bus who were 4.5 metres away (nearly 15 feet). I would think that sitting that far away from each other would negate the plan for socialising.
I think I would maybe do this after everyone has done a full 14 day self-isolation to be sure they aren't in the incubation phase or likely to be asymptomatic spreaders. I think giving the severity of the situation and how long it is likely to last, observing a strict 14 day isolation before attempting small gatherings is a reasonable compromise.
It would be really great if everyone could be tested so those that only need to isolate do so, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Balthamos at 9:04 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
And when someone has to pee?
Look, this sucks. Everyone knows it sucks and wants it to suck less. But don't do this. You could kill someone and never know it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:12 AM on March 19, 2020 [33 favorites]
Look, this sucks. Everyone knows it sucks and wants it to suck less. But don't do this. You could kill someone and never know it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:12 AM on March 19, 2020 [33 favorites]
I’ll tell you the same thing I told my roommates who refuse to stop regularly socializing and obey the shelter in place order here in the Bay Area: I’m not your parents or a cop, and you’re not a child. Make your own decisions about risk. Take moral responsibility for the small but real sacrifice of public health that you’re willing to make for your own mental health. It sounds like you’ve made up your mind, so don’t put it on online strangers to alleviate your guilt or anxiety.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:12 AM on March 19, 2020 [45 favorites]
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:12 AM on March 19, 2020 [45 favorites]
Make your own decisions about risk.
I think the problem with his is that we're making our own decisions about how much we want to put other people at risk. With every decision we make it's not just ourselves or even the people we know at risk, but the thousands of people downstream from us.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:14 AM on March 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
I think the problem with his is that we're making our own decisions about how much we want to put other people at risk. With every decision we make it's not just ourselves or even the people we know at risk, but the thousands of people downstream from us.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:14 AM on March 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
I think it's a nonstarter to have anyone set foot in someone else's household right now.
If such gatherings could be done totally outside, then maybe, provided appropriate distance could be maintained.
posted by vitout at 9:15 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
If such gatherings could be done totally outside, then maybe, provided appropriate distance could be maintained.
posted by vitout at 9:15 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
People are contagious before they show any symptoms, fyi. I think we all have a responsibility to society at large to do as much as we can right now.
posted by pinochiette at 9:19 AM on March 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 9:19 AM on March 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
No one can calculate literal percentage risk because we don't have all the data on how things are being transmitted and who is an asymptomatic vector.
There is no data on how effective your disinfection protocols are, the safety of pouring drinks regardless of what cup you're putting them into, your relative closeness as you move through hallways, stairwells, and rooms to get outside to your roof deck, or anyone's chances of having interaction with a vulnerable person just ten minutes after they leave your home regardless of who they have been in contact with in the week preceding.
If you choose to do this, you need to be prepared to take on moral responsibility of being the proximal cause of someone dying, even if you don't know who it is or if it's ten transmission cycles down the timeline. Even your neighbor next door with the asthmatic preschooler who sees people coming in to your building and goes out to panic-buy more anti-inflammatories, contracts the virus on her shopping cart handle, and brings it home to her family. Even someone's elderly parents a state away.
posted by juniperesque at 9:26 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
There is no data on how effective your disinfection protocols are, the safety of pouring drinks regardless of what cup you're putting them into, your relative closeness as you move through hallways, stairwells, and rooms to get outside to your roof deck, or anyone's chances of having interaction with a vulnerable person just ten minutes after they leave your home regardless of who they have been in contact with in the week preceding.
If you choose to do this, you need to be prepared to take on moral responsibility of being the proximal cause of someone dying, even if you don't know who it is or if it's ten transmission cycles down the timeline. Even your neighbor next door with the asthmatic preschooler who sees people coming in to your building and goes out to panic-buy more anti-inflammatories, contracts the virus on her shopping cart handle, and brings it home to her family. Even someone's elderly parents a state away.
posted by juniperesque at 9:26 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
> We are all cognizant of the risks,
I don't think you are, because you seem to be downplaying your, my, your guests' roll in spreading this to others. It stopped being about whether or not you catch the virus a long time ago.
posted by humboldt32 at 9:37 AM on March 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
I don't think you are, because you seem to be downplaying your, my, your guests' roll in spreading this to others. It stopped being about whether or not you catch the virus a long time ago.
posted by humboldt32 at 9:37 AM on March 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
We aren't scared of catching it as much as we want to be cautious of not spreading it.
Then this can't happen.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/stay-inside-for-the-health-of-the-elderly-and-sick.html
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html
posted by mdonley at 9:42 AM on March 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
Then this can't happen.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/stay-inside-for-the-health-of-the-elderly-and-sick.html
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html
posted by mdonley at 9:42 AM on March 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
Play with the WaPo's "corona simulator", and then understand that we do not know everyone who is infected or shedding virus. There's a huge difference in public health between what the article labels "moderate distancing" and "extensive distancing."
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Almost 18% of people that have tested positive for covid 19 had no symptoms. You are not socially isolating to stop yourself getting it, you socially isolate to stop transmitting it to other people. It is detectable in aerosols for up to three hours, up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel. Everyone of those people coming to your house could well have it is leaving a trail of virus seeded around the city for someone not young, healthy & bored to encounter. You could all however grab a drink at home & hang out in a video chat together, all the socializing none of the worrying.
posted by wwax at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by wwax at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think this is a tough call. If you're all asymptomatic, I would sit far apart and enjoy. It's not reasonable to be alone for 14 days. It takes a huge toll on everyone's mental health.
Many folks in my area are still traveling. In fact they're purposefully traveling to areas that still have restaurants open to socialize and then returning to work at essential operations.
You are being conservative if you do this. Almost everyone who's not far left I've talked to is completely ignoring social distancing as much as they can. It seems very likely we're not flattening the curve at all. Thank you for making this effort. Please cautiously see your friends
posted by Kalmya at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Many folks in my area are still traveling. In fact they're purposefully traveling to areas that still have restaurants open to socialize and then returning to work at essential operations.
You are being conservative if you do this. Almost everyone who's not far left I've talked to is completely ignoring social distancing as much as they can. It seems very likely we're not flattening the curve at all. Thank you for making this effort. Please cautiously see your friends
posted by Kalmya at 9:46 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think the problem with his is that we're making our own decisions about how much we want to put other people at risk.
I should have put it more clearly that this is what I meant too — it’s clearly wrong to risk other people’s physical health for the sake of your mental health, but if you’re going to do it, just do it and own the fact that you did wrong. Don’t ask other people to be your conscience for you.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:48 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
I should have put it more clearly that this is what I meant too — it’s clearly wrong to risk other people’s physical health for the sake of your mental health, but if you’re going to do it, just do it and own the fact that you did wrong. Don’t ask other people to be your conscience for you.
posted by thesmallmachine at 9:48 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
Er, so, coming at this from a non-epidemiological, but fairly graph-theoretical perspective (I'm a mathematician, but not an applied one), there are measures short of complete separation which serve to minimize the extent to which a disease spreads. As a thought experiment, think of 20 people who hang out with each other extensively and literally nobody else. From an individual-risk perspective, that there is not great because if one of them has it then they all do. From an epidemiological perspective, though, it's not bad at all because even if there is contagion within that group, it doesn't spread beyond that cluster.
Now, completely isolated clusters aren't tremendously viable, but the next best thing is if each person belongs to a very small number of interacting groups. Within a group, there may be rapid spread, but the spread from cluster to cluster will be slowed because it has to go through the bottleneck of individual group members.
It seems like, for psychological health reasons, it's good for people to interact and damn near impossible to prevent them from doing so. If our interactions are thoughtfully designed so that infection can only spread through very narrow channels, that's about the best compromise that's actually viable.
Obviously this is small comfort to those in high-risk categories, who should prioritize their individual health over the general epidemiological control program, but I'd argue that limited gatherings, with people who are not partaking in multiple other gatherings, have psychological benefits outweighing their comparatively small effect on transmission rates. This depends on people being honest and authentically limiting themselves to a small number of cliques, though, so it comes down to having to trust.
posted by jackbishop at 9:48 AM on March 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
Now, completely isolated clusters aren't tremendously viable, but the next best thing is if each person belongs to a very small number of interacting groups. Within a group, there may be rapid spread, but the spread from cluster to cluster will be slowed because it has to go through the bottleneck of individual group members.
It seems like, for psychological health reasons, it's good for people to interact and damn near impossible to prevent them from doing so. If our interactions are thoughtfully designed so that infection can only spread through very narrow channels, that's about the best compromise that's actually viable.
Obviously this is small comfort to those in high-risk categories, who should prioritize their individual health over the general epidemiological control program, but I'd argue that limited gatherings, with people who are not partaking in multiple other gatherings, have psychological benefits outweighing their comparatively small effect on transmission rates. This depends on people being honest and authentically limiting themselves to a small number of cliques, though, so it comes down to having to trust.
posted by jackbishop at 9:48 AM on March 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
The questions I have to ask on both sides of this argument are: What if my assumptions are wrong? What are the consequences from acting on wrong assumptions? Instead of asking the question you asked, maybe the question is what could go right or wrong within this scenario.?
Having a concrete list of possible benefits and possible negative consequences might be the best way to approach this. Brainstorm this list with the people you want to meet with and make a collective decision based on the data.
posted by Xurando at 10:05 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Having a concrete list of possible benefits and possible negative consequences might be the best way to approach this. Brainstorm this list with the people you want to meet with and make a collective decision based on the data.
posted by Xurando at 10:05 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I came in to say what jackbishop just did. You're all socially isolating, but excited to make this one exception. Except is it really just this one exception? Maybe person A took public transit 2 days ago one. Person B made an exception babysitting their cousin's kids. Person C is still going to work. ...
In theory a few sub groups if perfectly isolating can co-mingle, and while it will spread within the group won't spread further. But only if there are no other exceptions. At all. Period. Other wise, it's really just business as normal.
Toronto's Chief medical officer is explicit: "Having your friends over for dinner or coffee is not social distancing,” She said the same goes for playdates for children, visiting friends ... cite.
posted by nobeagle at 10:16 AM on March 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
In theory a few sub groups if perfectly isolating can co-mingle, and while it will spread within the group won't spread further. But only if there are no other exceptions. At all. Period. Other wise, it's really just business as normal.
Toronto's Chief medical officer is explicit: "Having your friends over for dinner or coffee is not social distancing,” She said the same goes for playdates for children, visiting friends ... cite.
posted by nobeagle at 10:16 AM on March 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
Not only do many people not show symptoms, most people catch it from people who show no symptoms, 2/3-3/4 based on S Korea and Singapore.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:16 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:16 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is a National Emergency, a Pandemic. If you are already so bored you're considering this risk, please figure out how you will cope if it lasts for months, because that's a possibility. If you are terribly lonely, or need to talk to someone about some issue, pick up the phone, have a conference call using one of many options, etc. I said it previously, but I'll repeat it. Right now, beginning stage of actual pandemic, any individual act of travel or other form of social interaction is unlikely to result in infection. But in the aggregate, experience and research show that the more social interaction, the more infection. as well as StayTheFuckHome. You are not a terrible human, but I think your friend wants you to take this more seriously.
posted by theora55 at 10:38 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:38 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
My organization had an all-staff Zoom call an hour ago. Our COO, a medical doctor practicing in a hospital setting, was asked a very similar question by a staff member and he told them not to do it.
He is not your doctor, etc.
posted by kimberussell at 10:41 AM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
He is not your doctor, etc.
posted by kimberussell at 10:41 AM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Jesus Christ, NO.
A friend of mine did cocktails via teleconference yesterday, and included friends from all over. But NOT FACE-TO-FACE!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:41 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
A friend of mine did cocktails via teleconference yesterday, and included friends from all over. But NOT FACE-TO-FACE!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:41 AM on March 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
I think it's bad. This type of small gathering (anything more than 1 household) is now prohibited in my county and others and might very well be in many more places soon. I think that's important to note since restrictions have generally been too little, too late rather than too aggressive.
It's not about the low individual risk to you and your friends or to the limited number of people you and they come into contact with. It's about the population as a whole. The fewer small-but-unnecessary risks everyone takes, the better.
Answers would probably be different if we had widely available testing and contact tracing like was implemented in South Korea but given the state of things in the US, I think that the right thing is to not have this get together.
P.S. Of course you're not a terrible person though! It's a totally natural thing to want face-to-face contact and it's very hard for all of us trying to navigate and deal with this situation.
posted by dogwalker3 at 10:56 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's not about the low individual risk to you and your friends or to the limited number of people you and they come into contact with. It's about the population as a whole. The fewer small-but-unnecessary risks everyone takes, the better.
Answers would probably be different if we had widely available testing and contact tracing like was implemented in South Korea but given the state of things in the US, I think that the right thing is to not have this get together.
P.S. Of course you're not a terrible person though! It's a totally natural thing to want face-to-face contact and it's very hard for all of us trying to navigate and deal with this situation.
posted by dogwalker3 at 10:56 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
It does increase your risk, but I'm not as dead set against it as others here. In our case, we still see my sister and her husband face-to-face to get together and talk and drink and laugh. None of the four of us socialize with any others, so we're just accepting the risk that we will all catch it or avoid it as a family. I believe it is a reasonable compromise to 100% isolation.
posted by Lame_username at 11:05 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Lame_username at 11:05 AM on March 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm an essential employee who oversees other essential employees. Please think of us and moreso--think of our kids who have to go to daycare so we can continue being essential.
So let's say you go ahead because hey you're all saying you understand the risks. Except that one in your group is shedding the virus. and they give it to all of you.
And you're all good and fine and none of you even know you have it, except you all go and spread it, and you spread it to essential employees like health care workers who now have to quarantine. So that may close some medical centers.
Then you give it to some child care workers, so now those centers are closed--even for essential employees--and now every single essential employee in a 100-mile radius of your roof has to stay home because all the child care centers had to close.
The risks FOR OTHER PEOPLE are way too large for you to do this. That's why people are being asked NOT TO.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:11 AM on March 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
So let's say you go ahead because hey you're all saying you understand the risks. Except that one in your group is shedding the virus. and they give it to all of you.
And you're all good and fine and none of you even know you have it, except you all go and spread it, and you spread it to essential employees like health care workers who now have to quarantine. So that may close some medical centers.
Then you give it to some child care workers, so now those centers are closed--even for essential employees--and now every single essential employee in a 100-mile radius of your roof has to stay home because all the child care centers had to close.
The risks FOR OTHER PEOPLE are way too large for you to do this. That's why people are being asked NOT TO.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:11 AM on March 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
Every single thing I’ve read from experts in infectious disease says this same thing: no, you absolutely should not do this. It’s the opposite of social distancing.
posted by holborne at 11:32 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by holborne at 11:32 AM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
From Dr. Asaf Bitton, a primary-care physician, public-health researcher, and the director of the Ariadne Labs, at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and the Harvard T. H. Chan School of Public Health:
“The piece that I wrote that got some traction—and I have to give credit to my wife, Liz—really came out of a huge number of people calling and asking, ‘If our school is closed, we can still do play dates, right?’ Or ‘Let’s have a six-family picnic in the park,’ or ‘How about a sleepover with only four kids?’ That is pretty much the opposite of social distancing. Social distancing isn’t some external concept that applies only to work and school. Social distancing is really extreme. It is a concept that disconnects us physically from each other. It profoundly reorients our daily life habits. And it is very hard.” Full interview here.
posted by holborne at 11:42 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
“The piece that I wrote that got some traction—and I have to give credit to my wife, Liz—really came out of a huge number of people calling and asking, ‘If our school is closed, we can still do play dates, right?’ Or ‘Let’s have a six-family picnic in the park,’ or ‘How about a sleepover with only four kids?’ That is pretty much the opposite of social distancing. Social distancing isn’t some external concept that applies only to work and school. Social distancing is really extreme. It is a concept that disconnects us physically from each other. It profoundly reorients our daily life habits. And it is very hard.” Full interview here.
posted by holborne at 11:42 AM on March 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
I’m not as dead set against this as most people here, and I have had to leave the house and will continue to have to leave the house daily to escort my husband to essential medical care.
But I think you should put it off for a week or two and have a virtual gathering instead. And then maybe when that date comes around you should put it off for another week. Give yourself something to look forward to.
I think a gathering of adults is very different from a sleepover or a play date!
posted by mskyle at 11:45 AM on March 19, 2020
But I think you should put it off for a week or two and have a virtual gathering instead. And then maybe when that date comes around you should put it off for another week. Give yourself something to look forward to.
I think a gathering of adults is very different from a sleepover or a play date!
posted by mskyle at 11:45 AM on March 19, 2020
It won’t and can’t actually work this way. Someone will need to pee, someone will touch a surface on the way *to* your apartment that will put someone else in your apartment building at risk, someone will touch a surface that you will not think to disinfect. I would not go to this kind of gathering and I’d strongly encourage my friends not to. If you absolutely must, do it in a park or at someone else’s freestanding house; don’t make this risk judgment for the rest of your apartment building. You don’t know the risk profiles of everyone else who lives in your building.
posted by Stacey at 12:30 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 12:30 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
So is this the worst thing in the whole world? Am I a terrible human for wanting actual face-to-face contact? Is this any different than just meeting up in a park, which still seems to not be a social sin? Another friend who has no interest in coming is treating me like if I have this get-together I will personally be responsible if her elderly parents a state away catch the virus.
I would think that you were not doing the social distancing needed to protect other people, and that would colour my view of you. It is not terrible at all that you want face-to-face contact. But this is not the time to find loopholes.
posted by plonkee at 12:35 PM on March 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
I would think that you were not doing the social distancing needed to protect other people, and that would colour my view of you. It is not terrible at all that you want face-to-face contact. But this is not the time to find loopholes.
posted by plonkee at 12:35 PM on March 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Agree that this is more about the collective good right now - there are just too many "what if" scenarios and factors at play that make this so, so risky. It sucks. It really does - I am an extrovert who wants nothing more than to see my friends right now, but my husband and I are taking it super seriously (also in Brooklyn) and just limiting our interactions to going to out to get supplies every few days.
We also live in a building with a ton of older residents and I am terrified that I am going to inadvertently bring something into the building just by doing those small things. You have no control over your friends and what they are bringing into the building and the impact that could have on not just you but other residents in the building. I would really ask you to reconsider for our all of our own good.
posted by something_witty at 12:35 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
We also live in a building with a ton of older residents and I am terrified that I am going to inadvertently bring something into the building just by doing those small things. You have no control over your friends and what they are bringing into the building and the impact that could have on not just you but other residents in the building. I would really ask you to reconsider for our all of our own good.
posted by something_witty at 12:35 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
In our case, we still see my sister and her husband face-to-face to get together and talk and drink and laugh. None of the four of us socialize with any others, so we're just accepting the risk that we will all catch it or avoid it as a family. I believe it is a reasonable compromise to 100% isolation.
This works fine if both households are actually self-isolating fully. Assuming you arrive either on foot or in private cars, you've essentially formed one isolated household that lives at two locations. But you say only that you're not "socializing" with others. Does that actually mean you've isolated? No work? No stores?
If you're not fully self-isolated, you're creating paths between clusters, which is exactly how things spread widely. See Small Worlds for the technical explanation or Six Degrees for the pop version. Don't do it, OP.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:14 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
This works fine if both households are actually self-isolating fully. Assuming you arrive either on foot or in private cars, you've essentially formed one isolated household that lives at two locations. But you say only that you're not "socializing" with others. Does that actually mean you've isolated? No work? No stores?
If you're not fully self-isolated, you're creating paths between clusters, which is exactly how things spread widely. See Small Worlds for the technical explanation or Six Degrees for the pop version. Don't do it, OP.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:14 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Do all 4 of you live alone? You can form an isolation “circle” where the 4 of you only interact with each other, as if the 4 of you lived together.
If you do this, agree on some rules - are you allowed to eat takeout from a restaurant? Must you each wear a mask and gloves when you go grocery shopping? Etc. as if you were one household.
posted by amaire at 1:22 PM on March 19, 2020
If you do this, agree on some rules - are you allowed to eat takeout from a restaurant? Must you each wear a mask and gloves when you go grocery shopping? Etc. as if you were one household.
posted by amaire at 1:22 PM on March 19, 2020
Also: Comprehensive Social Distancing Is Difficult And Necessary. Here's How To Keep Your Family Safe (Asaf Bitton, MD, MPH, WBUR, Mar. 14, 2020) (via Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health ongoing news updates) (emphasis mine)
The wisdom, and necessity, of this more aggressive, early, and extreme form of social distancing can be found here. I would urge you to take a minute to walk through the interactive graphs — they will drive home the point about what we need to do now to avoid a worse crisis later.Also, via the news updates, March 17: Top Doctor Calls For National Quarantine (MSNBC)
[...] Here are some steps you can start taking now to keep your family safe and do your part to avoid a worsening crisis.
1. We need to push our local, state and national leaders to close all schools and public spaces and cancel all events and public gatherings now. [...] 2. No kid playdates, parties, sleepovers or families/friends visiting each other’s houses and apartments. [...] 3. Take care of yourself and your family, but maintain social distance. [...] 4. Reduce the frequency of going to stores, restaurants, and coffee shops for the time being. [...] 5. If you are sick, isolate yourself, stay home and contact a medical professional.
Testing for the coronavirus is still “way behind the curve in terms of where we need to be,” according to Ashish Jha, HGHI director and K.T. Li Professor of Global Health. As of March 17 there were roughly 4,500 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the U.S., but experts suspect that the actual numbers are in the 30,000 to 40,000 range. “Our hospitals and our emergency rooms are not ready,” Jha said. He outlined two choices: “We can either have a national quarantine now—two weeks—get a grip on where things are and then reassess. Or we can not, wait another week, and when things look really terrible, be forced into it, and that’s going to last much longer. Many more people will die.”posted by katra at 1:24 PM on March 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
I live alone. I am immunocompromised. I might not be proximal to another human being until a vaccine is available, which will cost me friends, potentially my girlfriend, and perhaps my job. Very few of my friends are practicing social distancing, and it makes me really sad and makes me feel even more isolated because it lets me know that the needs of the many are less important to them than their immediate desires.
It doesn't make any of us terrible people if we want to socialize. That is part of being a human! But please, this is not the time to stretch the rules a bit. Leave proximal contact for the healthcare workers and the people on the front line.
The only way that this can work is if you all self isolate for 14 days, forming an isolation pod. Then you can theoretically see each other, as long as you wash your hands thoroughly and possibly even shower before you make contact.
posted by k8lin at 1:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
It doesn't make any of us terrible people if we want to socialize. That is part of being a human! But please, this is not the time to stretch the rules a bit. Leave proximal contact for the healthcare workers and the people on the front line.
The only way that this can work is if you all self isolate for 14 days, forming an isolation pod. Then you can theoretically see each other, as long as you wash your hands thoroughly and possibly even shower before you make contact.
posted by k8lin at 1:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
Is this any different than just meeting up in a park, which still seems to not be a social sin?
Yes it is different because in a park it’s a lot easier to physically maintain a certain distance. And a park is not your apartment, where there are tons of surfaces that others come into contact with or breathe around, even while taking precautions and disinfecting everything after. You never know.
Then again, in the worst hit areas in Europe they’re also closing parks, or threatening to do it, and imposing a strict lockdown where people are only allowed outside for bare necessities of shopping. In Wuhan they banned even that.
Just don’t do it, if you’re even considering these questions with some seriousness. A small gathering of friends is not a "social sin", you’re just human and sane and healthy for wanting to host a small gathering of friends, but it’s not really in line with the guidelines:
posted by bitteschoen at 1:38 PM on March 19, 2020
Yes it is different because in a park it’s a lot easier to physically maintain a certain distance. And a park is not your apartment, where there are tons of surfaces that others come into contact with or breathe around, even while taking precautions and disinfecting everything after. You never know.
Then again, in the worst hit areas in Europe they’re also closing parks, or threatening to do it, and imposing a strict lockdown where people are only allowed outside for bare necessities of shopping. In Wuhan they banned even that.
Just don’t do it, if you’re even considering these questions with some seriousness. A small gathering of friends is not a "social sin", you’re just human and sane and healthy for wanting to host a small gathering of friends, but it’s not really in line with the guidelines:
And for adults, what about having close friends over to visit?Sorry! It sucks! Do it over Skype with everyone at their own place and there will be no need to disinfect anything and no need to worry about the moral implications of defying the #StayTheFHome diktat.
The new CDC guidance is to avoid social visits for now. Once again, think virtual — maybe have a Facetime dinner party with friends.
[Sean] Morrison [a geriatrician with Mount Sinai Health System in New York] says the answer depends in part on where you live. If there's widespread transmission of the coronavirus in your community, his advice is to skip the visitors altogether. But "if you're in areas where there is less community spread, then limiting visitors rather than eliminating them, in my opinion, is probably a reasonable approach." He advises limiting interactions to one friend at a time.
posted by bitteschoen at 1:38 PM on March 19, 2020
The heart wants what the heart wants. But that does not make it a good idea. Make it a virtual party as others have suggested.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Another friend who has no interest in coming is treating me like if I have this get-together I will personally be responsible if her elderly parents a state away catch the virus.
All my respect to her. It's easy to grandstand on the internet about a stranger's behavior, and a lot harder to stand up to someone you know in person whose friendship you value and might lose if you speak up. This is important enough to sacrifice friendships over, and she's right.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
All my respect to her. It's easy to grandstand on the internet about a stranger's behavior, and a lot harder to stand up to someone you know in person whose friendship you value and might lose if you speak up. This is important enough to sacrifice friendships over, and she's right.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
DON'T DO IT.
There is a non zero chance someone could catch it from someone else and end up in the ICU or DIE.
We're all lonely and scared and this utterly, utterly sucks. I feel for you, honestly. But smart, trained, competent people who study this for a living say NO social gatherings exactly like the one you are proposing. Listen to them. This shit is serious.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 9:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
There is a non zero chance someone could catch it from someone else and end up in the ICU or DIE.
We're all lonely and scared and this utterly, utterly sucks. I feel for you, honestly. But smart, trained, competent people who study this for a living say NO social gatherings exactly like the one you are proposing. Listen to them. This shit is serious.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 9:36 PM on March 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can’t make this choice for you but from all we have been told by experts, this does not qualify as social distancing, and social distancing is critical right now. So critical we’ve basically shut down society across much of the globe.
People mistakenly thinking that they’re somehow exempt and can socialize if they’re “careful” is how some of these clusters started.
posted by kapers at 10:16 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
People mistakenly thinking that they’re somehow exempt and can socialize if they’re “careful” is how some of these clusters started.
posted by kapers at 10:16 PM on March 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
As a fellow shut-in brooklynite i get the feeling (zooming over drinks is a paltry replacement for real socializing) but I wouldn’t do this for all the reasons above. No people in your apartment and no sharing the bathroom. If you all can walk somewhere outside and stay apart-together (unlike most of the folks I’ve seen while out walking in Brooklyn bridge park) the meeting up part of this plan seems the most viable.
We know someone here who’s sibling tested positive. They (our friend, not the sibling) had been on the “small gatherings are fine, light distancing is cool” team and invited people over(!) before they knew. I wouldn’t want to take the risk.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 3:38 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
We know someone here who’s sibling tested positive. They (our friend, not the sibling) had been on the “small gatherings are fine, light distancing is cool” team and invited people over(!) before they knew. I wouldn’t want to take the risk.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 3:38 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
mskyle: I'm not as dead set against this as most people here, and I have had to leave the house and will continue to have to leave the house to escort my husband to essential medical care.
Totally different. Your husband can't get medical care from his care provider without going to that care provider's office; the OP can socialize with their friends in a less risky setting. And having just been through months of tiresome procedures, I know that patients often need someone with them in a medical setting: to ask questions and take notes, for moral support, and/or to drive if the patient isn't able to.
I think a gathering of adults is very different from a sleepover or a playdate!
No, it's not. Except that adults are better able to rationalize our behavior. As Stacey said,
Totally different. Your husband can't get medical care from his care provider without going to that care provider's office; the OP can socialize with their friends in a less risky setting. And having just been through months of tiresome procedures, I know that patients often need someone with them in a medical setting: to ask questions and take notes, for moral support, and/or to drive if the patient isn't able to.
I think a gathering of adults is very different from a sleepover or a playdate!
No, it's not. Except that adults are better able to rationalize our behavior. As Stacey said,
Someone will need to pee, someone will touch a surface on the way *to* your apartment that will put someone else in your apartment building at risk, someone will touch a surface that you didn't think to disinfect.posted by virago at 4:36 AM on March 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I realize this blows, but as someone who's been in literal, actual, nationwide lockdown for five days now I have to tell you: your friends' symptoms, lack thereof, and/or propensity to lie to you about it are moot, because you just. Don't. Know. They can't know if they're infected, if they're going to accidentally get within six feet of a vulnerable person, or of a healthcare worker, or god knows what. A dinner between friends is just not worth the risk. As part of confinement we are under strict orders NOT to have gatherings like this, including within families or between neighbors. The police are theoretically empowered to fine and force to return home anyone who does. So if your question is, "is this feasible if we are super careful", the answer is no.
This is because there is absolutely no margin for error. We have people over here, in the midst of a horrifying public health emergency and under civil-liberties restrictions unprecedented in peacetime, who are GOING TO THE GODDAMN BEACH. IN GROUPS. In addition to our individual moral responsibility here, those of us with something resembling a conscience--and you are obviously one of us--need to be triply careful about observing social distancing in part because of people like this. We cannot add to the already massive risk they're creating by putting even one toe out of line.
My sister-in-law is an ER nurse. I will spare you a direct quote from the messages she's been sending her immediate family, but the gist is: for the love of God, stay home.
posted by peakes at 5:31 AM on March 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
This is because there is absolutely no margin for error. We have people over here, in the midst of a horrifying public health emergency and under civil-liberties restrictions unprecedented in peacetime, who are GOING TO THE GODDAMN BEACH. IN GROUPS. In addition to our individual moral responsibility here, those of us with something resembling a conscience--and you are obviously one of us--need to be triply careful about observing social distancing in part because of people like this. We cannot add to the already massive risk they're creating by putting even one toe out of line.
My sister-in-law is an ER nurse. I will spare you a direct quote from the messages she's been sending her immediate family, but the gist is: for the love of God, stay home.
posted by peakes at 5:31 AM on March 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
If you're feeling low about this: I have been trying to remember that it's actually a privilege to be able to stay home and protect those who aren't so lucky.
posted by kapers at 7:00 AM on March 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by kapers at 7:00 AM on March 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
FWIW, I had a friend over last night. She's been struggling with her mental health and the isolation of it all and she reached out. I am now really, really regretting doing it because she now thinks it will be a regular thing. She's planning to meet up with a number of our friends in our program individually. I only found out when I went to pick her up that she had been working on her laptop at a cafe we like (outside) because she "can't work at home." So clearly, we have radically different ideas about social distancing.
Don't be like me- stay strong and keep social distance!
posted by Mouse Army at 7:21 AM on March 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
Don't be like me- stay strong and keep social distance!
posted by Mouse Army at 7:21 AM on March 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
The governor now says we shouldn't do this.
posted by ferret branca at 8:37 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ferret branca at 8:37 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is about to become illegal in New York state. The rules go into effect on Sunday evening, but you should do it now. Stay home. Have your friends stay home.
posted by Jahaza at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Jahaza at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
OP, you’ve been very quiet. I’m not trying to call you out, but I truly, truly hope you didn’t do this, or that you won’t. And as Jahaza points out, Governor Cuomo has now banned nonessential gatherings of any size for any reason.
posted by holborne at 10:56 AM on March 20, 2020
posted by holborne at 10:56 AM on March 20, 2020
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I am highly sympathetic to you, but having people into your home, even just to walk through to the roof, will not allow you to remain six feet away from people. You have to answer the door, what happens if someone (or multiple someones) need to use the washroom, etc. I agree that the actual risk is likely very low, and I am someone who is still going out for walks, to the grocery store, etc. However, I am dropping my grandmother's groceries outside her door. If any of you are going to be in contact with high-risk individuals anytime soon, I would not do this.
on preview: I think the having people through your home part is the concerning part, not the sitting outside far apart part. Can you do this in your front yard or a park or on a street corner?
posted by hepta at 8:58 AM on March 19, 2020 [10 favorites]